Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

Let there be snark.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

Hot air and ill-informed banter

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

“But what about the lurkers?”

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

No one could have predicted…

We still have time to mess this up!

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

The willow is too close to the house.

You are here: Home / Politics / GOP Death Cult / Repub Venality Open Thread: Kevin McCarthy, Not A Smart Man

Repub Venality Open Thread: Kevin McCarthy, Not A Smart Man

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#MoscowMitch not looking too good here, either…

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163Comments

  1. 1.

    Obvious Russian Troll

    What the fuck is going on with the world when Jonah Fucking Goldberg comes off as reasonable?

  5. 5.

    Benw

    @Alison Rose ???: Liz Cheney and J Goldberg are our frenemies right now because they want their white nationalism and destruction of democracy on the down low. They are still on the other side.

  6. 6.

    Tony Jay

    I’m looking forward to the bloodbath as members of the DC Press Corps take machetes to each other’s hamstrings for the glory of being the first to confront GOP leaders with proof that they chickened out of impeaching Trump.

    Because that’s their job, isn’t it?

  7. 7.

    MisterDancer

    This really ties back to the conversation in the other thread — The GOP Base.

    It really has become a religious cult, hasn’t it? Decades of lies and propaganda and generational power grabs and rot, really have led them back to replaying some John C. Calhoun shit, some “we’ll break the Republic again if you don’t let us abuse who we want to” business.

    It’s the base that held tight. The polling of said base, and no doubt the direct feedback to Congresspeople, that informed the moral degeneracy at play in this reporting.

    This shows they know — knew! — the right thing to do, all this time. Have known, likely for decades. But have given in, time and again, to retain money and power. Or to avoid the fury of a base that’s getting, more and more, a taste for blood.

    A taste these asshats helped encourage that base, to build up.

    What a shitshow.

  11. 11.

    dmsilev

    I also eagerly await the witch-hunt as the GOP leadership hunts for whoever leaked that recording.

  12. 12.

    Kay

    @MisterDancer:

    It’s the base that held tight.

    So true. But no responsibility or accountability for them is ever even considered. No one says “most the Republican base enthusiastically supported an insurrection, is that a problem with them?” They’re treated like children.

  15. 15.

    SFAW

    @Tony Jay:

    I’m looking forward to the bloodbath as members of the DC Press Corps take machetes to each other’s hamstrings for the glory of being the first to confront GOP leaders with proof that they chickened out of impeaching Trump.

    Because that’s their job, isn’t it?

    This is even funnier than your usual reporting on Flobadob et al.

  18. 18.

    MJS

    Gregg Nunziata, as should be expected of a man who once worked for Marco Rubio and other Republican toads, is a fucking liar. At no point did “every Republican in Washington” understand that “Trump was unfit and a threat to the Republic”. Not even close.

  21. 21.

    Salty Sam

    @MisterDancer: This shows they know — knew! — the right thing to do, all this time.

    This goes back to Carlo’s “Resumption of History” post last night.  We ALL, McCarthy and McConnell included, know “the right thing”.  It’s too bad the lust for power turned them away from following through…

  22. 22.

    MisterDancer

    @Kay: no responsibility or accountability for them is ever even considered.

    To fuse this with the other thread, part of the issue is that this is a cult. And punishing cult members is bad enough when it’s a small cult, like the sex cult the lady from the show SMALLVILLE got wrapped up in.

    How do you punish a cult that is as deeply embedded in American life, as this? How do we address the people who didn’t do an Insurrection, but gave succor and support to same? Or the many who keep saying “Heritage not Hate,” and don’t realize the Heritage is the Hate?

  25. 25.

    bluegirlfromwyo

    The most maddening quote is this is McConnell’s Dems will take care of this for us. That’s basically our dynamic now. Dems taking care of this country and the GOP heckling from the cheap seats. Even the most powerful of these over entitled babies expect this.

  26. 26.

    Betty

    One of the outstanding moments in the Adam Schiff book was his account of Kevin’s bare-faced lying. He knew then not to trust a word he said. I guess not many journalists read that book if Kevin’s lies surprise them.

  27. 27.

    Mike in NC

    Nobody should have ever expected decency or patriotism from Moscow Mitch McKKKonnell or KKKevin McKKKarthy. Fucking jellyfish would be better ‘public servants’.

  28. 28.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Manu Raju @mkraju

    Cheney spox: “The select committee has asked Kevin McCarthy to speak with us about these events but he has so far declined. Representative Cheney did not record or leak the tape and does not know how the reporters got it.”

    “Ralphie, I’m not gonna tell you how handle your crew. I trust you to the right thing, to take care of this in the right way….”

    I’ve been wondering about the possibility of some political theatre in the 1/6 hearings. An empty chair for Leader McCarthy, and a few others. “We had hoped Mr McCarthy would choose to join us today, we were in negotiations with him and his team up until this morning. Unfortunately, he has chosen not to share his knowledge of the events of January 6 with the American people. However, since we are here, I think it would be a good chance for us to share with the American people the questions we would have asked, and why…” Maybe for half an hour, one or two committee members reading their questions into the record.

  29. 29.

    VOR

    @Salty Sam: Exactly. They care about power. They were willing to abandon TFG when they thought he was a threat to their retention of power. Once it became clear his cult was loyal, the mainstream GOP like McCarthy and McConnell went right back to being TFG’s little followers.

    You cannot shame these people. McCarthy can count on Fox never mentioning this affair so most of his voters won’t know anything about it. He clearly sees no problem that his public actions don’t match his private thoughts.

  30. 30.

    oatler

    Regarding the ongoing MTG hearing, things are getting too spicy for the chili pepper! And that’s just the lawyers.

  31. 31.

    dww44

    As the fate of our democracy hangs in the balance and the verdict is likely to be rendered in November, I welcome any and all Republicans/ conservatives who have opted to support our democracy above authoritarianism. What does it take for a conservative to draw a line in the sand and eschew the outsized role that money and power play in our institutions of governance.?

    We seriously need a blunt and oft repeated message coming from our Democratic leaders to encourage that sort of realization on the part of many of them who do know better and need to be prodded, a lot, to NOT vote for the R in November. We just need enough to turn away the red tide everyone tells us we are in for. It’s early to have to accept the outcomes that political prognosticators say will happen. The latter has always been a huge turn off for me, This election is too important to be reduced to the kind of political process discussion that overlooks where the other side is. It is not in a good place and we need to convince them of that.

  32. 32.

    Sure Lurkalot

    I read that the hearings are to happen in June, not May (not successful in tracking back but will try to find link). Some responders thought the closer the hearings are to the midterms the better. I think people tune out a lot in the summer. Maybe if meanwhile a bunch of sewage like this leaks out every week, the seemingly constant pushing forward the hearings into the future won’t matter.

  33. 33.

    piratedan

    @bluegirlfromwyo: very much so… they (with a huge helping hand from Uncle Rupert) built this monster and they don’t care to deal with the consequences of dealing with it.

    If the monster goes off the rails and kills everyone else, fine… they’ll be in charge, if the Dems manage to kill the monster, they can go back an whinge about how wrong it was to destroy the Monster given their profession for an open and reasonable discourse and snipe about methodology and process.

    be happy to put these fuckers on a raft and let them build a civilization on the islands of garbage that are floating in the Pacific.

  36. 36.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio

    @opiejeanne: It’s a chain of cheap hamburger joints, largely in the southeastern US. If you’ve ever encountered a White Castle, they’re very similar.

  37. 37.

    Kay

    Derek Thompson
    @DKThomp
    ·20h
    This seems pretty important: There’s an ongoing collapse in pro-institution sentiment among Republicans—who disapprove of colleges, big corporations, tech firms, media, entertainment, and unions. Basically: Everything is bad, except church.

    Obviously the problem is colleges, big corporations, tech firms, media, entertainment and unions.

    Because Republican voters are never, ever wrong or at fault in any way.

  38. 38.

    MisterDancer

    @dww44: What does it take for a conservative to draw a line in the sand and eschew the outsized role that money and power play in our institutions of governance.?

    A lot, because there’s a stick to that carrot. We saw it with the threats to VP Pence during the Insurrection, and reports of threats to Rep. Cheney over her work this year.

    Direct violence, or even the threat of financial/social ruination, are powerful motivators that are (implicitly?) leveraged on that side. I suspect a major part of how Jim Crow worked was threats to any Whites who might give succor to Blacks in that era, for example.

    This is why dismantling systems of oppression have to be deeply Intersectional efforts, and have to look beyond our own fears and rage — as righteous and valid as they are.

  39. 39.

    kindness

    I know Kevin represents a really red district here in California but I somehow think he might not get re-elected.

  40. 40.

    dww44

    @raven: ​

    @a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio: ​
      There are those of us who remember when Krystal hamburgers were 10 cents and who every so often drive thru for a fix of those distinctive hamburgers with the strong mustard and onion flavor. A pack of 3 or 4 with fries and a drink. Course the burgers cost way more than a dime each these days.

  43. 43.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    I’m totally shocked and surprised to read this line in the WaPo article.

    The crux of the report, which previews their upcoming book,

    So this is reporting that they knew months ago, but sat on till they could put it in a book? How very… much a story we keep hearing about reporting on That Party and That Guy.

  44. 44.

    ian

    @Kay:

    But no responsibility or accountability for them is ever even considered.

    How/what would that even look like?

  45. 45.

    trollhattan

    @kindness: His vulnerability would be if a hard-Trumper ran against him. IDK his district demographics since redistricting but did not hear he had become vulnerable like Nunes did. Bakersfield is Bakersfield.

  46. 46.

    Lacuna Synecdoche

    Jonah Goldberg via Anne Laurie @ Top:

    I think there would be no more fitting end to Kevin McCarthy’s dream of becoming speaker than the “scandal” of him being exposed as privately believing the right and moral thing.

    Yeah, I wasn’t surprised about McCarthy & McConnell lying and being caught on tape – that’s par for the GOP course –  but that they momentarily considered doing the right thing? That’s a fucking shocker.​

  47. 47.

    dww44

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: ​
      Yes, even with the presumed free press protectors of the truth, they too often choose to share it when it’s too late to do any good but when they can get paid for doing so. Duty and integrity in the practice of their craft takes a back seat. That’s the problem with our for-profit free press.

  48. 48.

    Nicole

    It’s hilarious as all get out (I especially like the quip about Cheney family tradition, but I don’t feel like it’s going to make any difference.  A large portion of the nation isn’t paying any attention, and an equally large portion have picked the GOP for their team and they’re not switching, any more than there was a mass exodus of Steelers fans when their QB was credibly accused of sexual assault.  They don’t care if it’s guys on their team.  As long as their team wins, it’s all good.

    It’s also infuriating, because lying should count for something, but it doesn’t.  There are never any consequences, whether it’s FedEx claiming they attempted a delivery when they clearly didn’t, or Republicans lying about treason.

  49. 49.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    The Wreck of the VMS Mosckva

    The legend lives on from the Donbass on down,
    Of the big sea the Greeks called Áxeinos
    The sea, it is said, never rots her dead
    When the waters turn deep and gloomy
    The ship was the pride of the Russian side
    Coming back from shelling some grade school in Odessa
    As the big cruiser go, it was older than most
    With a captain well seasoned and connected
    And later that night when the ship’s bell rang
    Could it be a drone they be tracking’?

    Does anyone know where the love of western made washing machines goes
    When the waves turn the minutes to hours?
    The searchers all say they’d have made Sevastopol Bay
    If they’d put fifteen more miles behind her
    They might have split up or they might have capsized
    They may have set themselves on fire.
    And all that remains is the faces and the names
    Of the wives and the sons and the daughters

  50. 50.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Lacuna Synecdoche: we already heard McConnell essentially say, in public, on the Senate floor, that it was up to Democrats to clean up this mess and put trump away. Lindsey Graham too. IIRC McCarthy said something similar.

    Here’s hoping, and I live in hope, that the secrecy aspect of this will make more people think there’s something to see here. People are always more interested in what pols are trying to cover up than what they do in public.

  51. 51.

    Ken

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I would hope for something more like:

    “… Unfortunately, he has chosen not to share his knowledge of the events of January 6 with the American people. Fortunately, he worked with a lot of people who, in the words of Stringer Bell, took notes on a criminal conspiracy, and we have those documents here.”

  55. 55.

    Betty Cracker

    Steve Schmidt has a tweet thread saying McCarthy is toast. An excerpt:

    Kevin McCarthy’s political death will be like radiation poisoning. It won’t be sudden. It will be painful, prolonged and even have a window of false stability…

    The GOP House Leadership election will remain volatile until the very end. The vote counts will all be illusory because the voters will all be lying to the counters in a game of back stabbing treachery.

    For example, does EliseStefanik look like the type of gal who is ringing up Steve Scalice this morning to strategize about how to help Kevin? Nope…

    Schmidt compares McCarthy to Scar in “The Lion King” and predicts the hyenas will take him down.

  57. 57.

    Ruckus ??

    @MisterDancer:

    I think there is an issue with the conservative side and that is that the top 10% knowingly sold a bill of goods to the bottom 90%. That top 10% know right from wrong, but only give a whatever about power and money, mostly the money. That 90% thinks that everything the 10% tell them is the truth, and of course it’s all bullshit. There are 2 ways to make money – earn it honestly or produce bullshit. They choose bullshit, it’s easier than actual work and to sell what they sell – hate and, well more hate, bullshit is their tool of choice.

  58. 58.

    Ruckus ??

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Those at the top of the rethuglican party are all about money. Not actually earning it of course, that would be actual work. No, they are all about getting paid by the highest bidder to sell hate and bullshit.

    Now we all like money, no question about that, because having money is nicer than not. But liking money because it buys you food and shelter is not the same as liking money because it buys you status, power and more money, all for the low, low price of lying.

  59. 59.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio

    @MisterDancer:

     

    I suspect a major part of how Jim Crow worked was threats to any Whites who might give succor to Blacks in that era, for example.

    This was absolutely the case, with penalties ranging from mild social ostracism through constant legal harassment or total ostracism, and on to outright physical violence. In some places they’re still doing this, usually stopping before the physical violence, although you can tell that some of them yearn for that purifying, cleansing violence against those who reject membership in the Master Race and wallow in the mud of sin and diversity.

  60. 60.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio

    @dww44: They’re strangely addictive. Especially late at night, when you’re in a state of altered consciousness, whether from alcohol or other substances.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @germy: Charlie Pierce is live-tweeting, but I will say if anyone can convincingly display too-dumb-to-convict….

    Charles P. Pierce @CharlesPPierce 1h
    Marge is pretending that she learned English 20 minutes ago.

    MTG is being asked about knowing Ali Alexander and I think I hear a cock crowing.

    MTG doesn’t remember anybody she talked to about the upcoming January 6 festivities.

    that last one is a lie

    Charles P. Pierce @CharlesPPierce 28m
    Marge walks into a chopper blade on QAnon while whining about CNN.

  64. 64.

    Steeplejack

    All I know is that Ronan Farrow published on Weinstein as soon as ethically and practically possible, and he still made that reporting into a book AND a podcast AND a TV series. I’m pretty sure some obscure team of reporters did okay with Watergate without waiting, too.

    — Linda Holmes (@lindaholmes) April 22, 2022

  65. 65.

    Kay

    @Steeplejack:

    I will never get over that their whole thing is supposedly information as it happens yet they regularly withhold information for a year or more. You’d do better with a mimeographed newsletter delivered on horseback. A BOOK is how they have chosen to publish “news”.

  66. 66.

    Steeplejack

    @Kay:

    They’re all about building their personal “brands” now.

    ETA: And they worry that if they report uncomfortable information they will lose the access that they use to (lazily) collect the “news.”

  67. 67.

    Soprano2

    @bluegirlfromwyo: I don’t understand what McConnell thought would happen, because without enough Republican votes in the Senate there was no way Democrats could “take care of that” for him!

  68. 68.

    Kay

    @Steeplejack:

    They’re maybe..very recent historians? Is there a phrase for what this work is?

    “I have a giant digital and daily-print empire. I think I’ll use …a book to disseminate news”.

  69. 69.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: Andrew Yang was on Bill Maher’s show podcast a couple of weeks ago. Evidently he’s involved in some project about young men, how they’re troubled and not going to college and stuff like that, and all I could think was “who’s preventing them from going to college?” In my experience young men, especially the white ones, can do pretty much anything they want, so perhaps it’s that they don’t want to go to college with all those smart women and minorities because it makes them feel bad. Maybe do something about that attitude, rather than thinking it’s “society” that’s preventing them from doing it. In my school, all the boys acted like they were stupid and got bad grades because it was considered “sissy” to get good grades in school. I think this came from their dads, most of whom didn’t go to college. Do something about that!

  70. 70.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Soprano2: As Deep Throat said, “What you got to understand is that these aren’t very smart guys and things got out of hand.”

  72. 72.

    Kay

    “Everywhere Babies” is a very cute and very popular picture book.

    The nutjobs banned it, no idea why, but the author response to the ban is great:

    Erica L. Green
    @EricaLG

    “It’s abhorrent to me, but it’s not surprising. To be honest, I don’t know that I’ve ever been on a list with Toni Morrison before, or Judy Blume — I mean the people on this list, I’m thrilled to be on any list with these people!”

  73. 73.

    James E Powell

    @MisterDancer:

    It’s the base that held tight. The polling of said base, and no doubt the direct feedback to Congresspeople, that informed the moral degeneracy at play in this reporting.

    And the base is even tighter now. It’s a common lament in on this forum, but they appear to be unreachable.

  74. 74.

    James E Powell

    @Tony Jay:

    I’m looking forward to the bloodbath as members of the DC Press Corps take machetes to each other’s hamstrings for the glory of being the first to confront GOP leaders with proof that they chickened out of impeaching Trump.

    I expect them to close ranks & protect each other. It wasn’t just Republicans in congress who cravenly submitted to Trump. In the weeks following January 6th, the Sunday shows featured insurrectionists. Chuck Todd & Company helped them regain control of the narrative.

  75. 75.

    Tony Jay

    @SFAW:

    Friday is Absurd Day in my house. Plus I literally cannot write about the insane circus my country has devolved into since 2016 without getting stabby, so pointing and laughing at your national clowns is a welcome relief.

  76. 76.

    Tony Jay

    @danielx:

    Villagers don’t do machetes

    Pitchforks work too. Every proper Villager has a pitchfork handy, don’t they? In case a monster or a Clinton happens by?

  77. 77.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Kay: I don’t understand it from the point of view of the FTFNYT. Your employment provides you access and resources to ferret out these tidbits and then you use them for your own profit? Sure the book byline gives the FTFNYT some eyeballs but?

  78. 78.

    cain

    @Soprano2: The dems have been pretty much taking care of every major disaster. The scam is always that we do all the hard lifting and after a period of 2-4 years, everything flips back to the GOP because voters have amnesia.

    If they do end up on permanent majorities – we will have terrible economy and horrible social shit happening. On the other hand, they will own it all – and the party only has one thing and that is taxes. Since most of hte large companies are already not paying taxes as well as the rich I’m guessing the next thing is selling off everything to private industry.

  79. 79.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    I don’t know what I think about it. I think it’s true that they are kind of lost, young white lower income men in rural areas, and I am not unsympathetic to that, probably because I have grown children that age and I see so many of them just at loose ends. There really are trades programs though. They never went away in the midwest. We have an oversubscribed vocational high school here – it’s popular and they can get free training and get a decent 40-50k job. They just don’t seem to want to. They chase all this bullshit- crypto or bad small businesses that will never make money or just living with their parents and not working at all. They are in trouble but I’m just not convinced it’s a lack of opportunity. There’s no “stigma” to being working class where I live- most people are.

  81. 81.

    cain

    @Kay: It’s like the dot com boom – everyone went off chasing easy money.

    I really believe that the dotcom era fucked up a lot of cultural things.

  83. 83.

    bluegirlfromwyo

    @Soprano2: Exactly! It’s like the GOP only has power when they can scream and cry. But when something actually needs to be done, it’s all up to Democrats to succeed or fail, reality be damned.

  84. 84.

    Geminid

    @James E Powell: The Republican base is unreachable, but who needs to reach them? Their base may be big enough to win red states like Arkansas and Alabama.  I think they’ve got to reach more voters beyond their base to win in states like Ohio, Florida, and Texas, Arizona and Georgia.. Maybe Missouri too.

  85. 85.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @cain: And now social media and influencers, who seem to make loads of easy money.

  86. 86.

    Kent

    @MJS:Gregg Nunziata, as should be expected of a man who once worked for Marco Rubio and other Republican toads, is a fucking liar. At no point did “every Republican in Washington” understand that “Trump was unfit and a threat to the Republic”. Not even close.

    Most of them knew he was unfit.  They just didn’t care because they thought they could use him to their own ends.

    And ‘threat to the Republic’ is in the eye of the beholder.   Permanent Republican rule through undemocratic means was not something they would have viewed as a threat to the Republic.  But rather a restoration of the Republic or some such.

  88. 88.

    Geminid

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: So does their base constitute 50% +1 of the Missiuri electorate? Or more practically, 45%? I know that Republicans worry that they could lose Roy Blunt’s Senate seat if former Governor Greitens is their nominee, so they aren’t so certain how firm their control is.

  89. 89.

    Kay

    @cain:

    It’s not even that long. Apprenticeships for skilled trades are 5 years but they’re earning the whole time and there are 1 and 2 year certificates for semi-skilled labor, so 35k range and if they stick around they’ll make 40-50. Enough to be independent as long as they don’t get into a 60k auto loan or have lots of children. But they want do house flipping or online trading or “scrapping”. Some of the commentary I see on it is just silly, that they may feel “disrespected” for doing manual work but how does that make sense when they live in communities where most people do manual work? They’re surrounded by older men and women who do the same work. They live in working class places. Why would we do a national comparison?

  90. 90.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @Kay: Yes, rural America is pretty much falling apart right now. The most capable leave. Those that can’t reinforce the disfunction. I few years ago, I remember reading that urban teen pregnancy had gone down a lot, but it was on the rise in rural America. Drug abuse has been up there for a while, too. They think everyone is getting help but them, yet, they also support politicians who block the help they need. Right wing media draws its strength from that worsening disfunction by giving them someone else to blame. Its crazy. I was hoping Biden would be able to do more to address that, but we just didn’t end up with big enough majorities to do what we need to.

  91. 91.

    Wapiti

    @Kay: I think income inequality might be part of the problem. In the “olden days”, the doctor might be making 7-8x the average income in town. He was well off, but understandably so. There are a lot of really well off people, and they aren’t especially smart or gifted. In a lot of case they’re just connected. And if a kid isn’t connected, he might realize he’ll never be able to compete at that level. (Of course, one can make a decent living, but too often society seems to say that you have to compete for the $$$).

  92. 92.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @Geminid: Trump basically got 57% of the vote here in 2020. Biden got 41%. Kansas City, St. Louis, and Columbia are all blue. Every other part of this state is DEEP red.

  94. 94.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    I’m so wary of it because I have this sinking feeling that women are going to be blamed for men not going to college. That’s where I see this heading. And I’m doubly worried that it’s being raised by Andrew Yang and Bill Maher, because a grievance is going to follow and the whole mess is going to be blamed on “wokeness” or “feminization” or something.

    As I said, I have some sympathy for the problem, I think it’s a real problem, but let’s not give it to them. That ends no where good. We have a young white man problem. That shouldn’t lead to some switcheroo fancy footwork where it ends up a young white women problem. Not their fault.

  95. 95.

    Geminid

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Well, that’s redder than Ohio and Texas.Trump won Ohio by 8 points and Texas by 5. I know the trend there has been towards the red, but politics are dynamic and electorates don’t neccesarily keep moving in a straight line. So the Democratic nominee might have a fighter’s chance, especial if grimy Greitens wins the August primary.

    I’m curious, though. What do you think of the latest Democrat to enter the race, the nurse/Busch heiress from St. Louis? I noticed that a very qualified ex-state Senator dropped out and endorsed her.

  96. 96.

    Soprano2

    @Kay:  I guess that’s what I’m getting at – there is no one preventing young white men from succeeding if they want to do something. He makes it sound like it’s some kind of crisis being caused by “society”, but as far as I know “society” isn’t telling young white men that they can’t succeed. If there’s a problem, then let’s get to the root of it – maybe it’s that they all want to win the lottery rather than work for money, or they think college is for losers for some reason, or something else. Just don’t tell me it’s “society’s” fault that young white men suddenly have problems and can’t succeed. If the problem is that they are upset that they cannot be first in line for everything because of women and minorities, then let’s be honest about that being the problem rather than saying “society” is causing it.

  97. 97.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: I’m so wary of it because I have this sinking feeling that women are going to be blamed for men not going to college. That’s where I see this heading.

    That’s what it sounded like to me – “All the women are taking the slots so there are none left for the men” was definitely on the table as far as the reason. I think they just don’t want to compete with people who they think are naturally “beneath” them. And yeah, I can definitely see it being cast as “women have ‘feminized’ college so much by being too ‘woke’ that men don’t want to go there anymore, we need to bring back ‘manly universities’ where men can be sexual predators and not get in trouble for it. Geez, you can’t even flirt with a college woman anymore without being accused of sexual harassment.”

  98. 98.

    gene108

    @MisterDancer:

    This really ties back to the conversation in the other thread — The GOP Base.

    @Kay:

    So true. But no responsibility or accountability for them is ever even considered. No one says “most the Republican base enthusiastically supported an insurrection, is that a problem with them?” They’re treated like children.

    I think it’s more than just the GOP base. I think who Republicans are truly afraid of are the Right Wing Media, RightWingPACs, and Americans For Prosperity type groups.

    The Republican base is not terribly creative. They rarely seem to generate their own ideas. The ideas they do embrace comes from the right-wing ecosystem of media, PACs, operatives, etc.

    The base just runs with what their spoon fed and act like its their own idea.

    I think at some level, Republican politicians are just puppets for the people behind the dark money groups, right-wing media personalities, etc., and outside of a few people who’ve been around awhile, like McConnell, or the couple with a spine, most Republicans in Congress are are interchangeable. All the campaigning in primaries, trying to appeal to voters, etc. is superfluous. The RNC could just find the candidate, who has the best shot at winning and just hand pick them for each state and district. We already know how they’re going to vote and what they will say will be what right-wing media said the night before.

  99. 99.

    Martin

    Somewhere in the leadup to the 2020 election, every Republican leader made a decision whether they were going to record every goddamn thing as evidence they were not a party to a crime, or not record anything because they were choosing to be a party to a crime.

    We’re going to see just how many chose to be in the former camp. Guessing its more than the folks in the latter camp realized.

  100. 100.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    That’s what it sounded like to me

    Well, trust your gut on that one because that’s where they’re going! :)

    I’m perfectly open to considering the problems of young white men, but not if it’s going to be used for some pre-existing agenda to blame it on either feminists, progressives, progression itself– time moving forward- or what seems to be the all purpose, in a pinch, scapegoat, trans people.
    We’re the people funding PELL grants and trade schools and job programs, not conservatives. They should stop being so pissed off and enroll in one. There’s HUGE sexism in both skilled trades and manufacuring trades. They’ll have an unearned leg up.
    They can’t go back to 1950. They can’t push someone else down to bring themselves up.

  101. 101.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    So basically, the Russians Republicans agree there are these serious problems, it concerns them, they would like to see these problems fixed, but it’s more fun to be a bunch assholes and POWN the libertards. My god that pathetic and in many ways worse than if they were simply Nixon kind of evil. This is just all mediocre white bois flaunting they are useless.

  102. 102.

    Martin

    @Soprano2: A few points on that.

    1. I’ve never met a mom that didn’t want their son to go to college. Worried they couldn’t afford it? Sure. But always wanted them to go.
    2. Young men are slowly being squeezed out of college admission because they are overconfident. Advised a young man last night with a 3.8 who wanted to go to UCLA for software engineer, and had to level with him that was unrealistic, as was the tier of schools below UCLA. I’d wager that UCLA sees virtually no female applicants for engineering with 3.8 GPAs, because the women know that’s too low (from schools in this area, cutoff will be around a 4.1 or 4.2). Young men are unaccustomed to the amount of work needed now, and having to do it. The women who apply have higher test scores, higher GPAs, more extracurricular, etc. Simply put, they are working harder, and they are getting the seats.
    3. This is leading to the wrong feedback loop where the male students aren’t responding by working harder, but by deciding that the payoff isn’t worth the effort.
    4. This is further exacerbated by gender roles. Universities are working very hard to get women into traditionally male-dominated fields like engineering, but the male applicants aren’t going after traditionally female-dominated fields. So across the board, the percentage of women entering each discipline is flat (and high) or rising, while the number of men is flat (and low) or declining. So for the male dominated fields, the standard for entry is skyrocketing because you have this serious increase in applications from women, who tend to be if anything overqualified for admission, as compared to the men who tend to be underqualified. Female dominated fields are looking to admit more men, but they have to apply, and they aren’t.

    Part of the problem with all of this is that this information isn’t being disseminated back to the public. Students don’t know why they were rejected. They can’t see the dynamics within the educational system.

    And of course underlying all of this is pay inequity. Hard to get the guys to chase occupations that pay like shit because they are dominated by women and paying women less is kind of a thing we do.

  103. 103.

    burnspbesq

    @Tony Jay:

    I’m looking forward to the bloodbath as members of the DC Press Corps take machetes to each other’s hamstrings for the glory of being the first to confront GOP leaders with proof that they chickened out of impeaching Trump.

    Don’t hold your breath.

  104. 104.

    Soprano2

    @Martin: Thanks for that, it’s useful information. Interesting that at its base it’s about the men not wanting to up their game, but expecting the same old standards that helped them succeed before. And of course they aren’t going into “women dominated” fields, that’s for sissy gay men. *rolleyes* I heard a podcast where they talked to men in a bad job market who were working at WalMart; they didn’t see that as a “real” job, but just something they had to do until the economy improved so they could get a “real, manly” job again. It’s a big problem in rural areas; lots of men don’t want jobs in fields they perceive as “girly” or “nerdy” even if the pay is high. The podcast said that’s why some of the job re-training programs fail, because the men aren’t interested in a job they think is “girly”. I don’t know how you overcome that other than to change the view of the job. It can be done, “nerds” and the things they do are seen as much cooler now than they were when I was young.

  105. 105.

    Lyrebird

    @Martin: More than ten years ago, I read that there were still more high paying jobs which don’t require a college degree available to men, like construction and things like that.  Not that no women do construction, but not many.

    Is that still the case?

  106. 106.

    Suzanne

    @Kay:

    Some of the commentary I see on it is just silly, that they may feel “disrespected” for doing manual work but how does that make sense when they live in communities where most people do manual work? 

    I think the word respect is doing a lot and we should unpack it. The term implies a relationship of equality to me, a very horizontal relationship. But I think most of the people who complain about a lack of respect for their social cohort really mean a lack of esteem or admiration. A more vertical sort of social ordering. There seems to be this sort of cultural memory of a time when manual laborers might not have made much money, but they commanded the admiration of people, this sort of centering of themselves in the national imagination as honorable Americans to whom we owed a debt of at least gratitude.

  107. 107.

    Gravenstone

    @bluegirlfromwyo: Still a lie, though. Because McConnell knew damned will his caucus would never vote to convict, and therefore rid us all of that motherfucker.

  108. 108.

    burnspbesq

    @Kay:

    Enough to be independent as long as they don’t get into a 60k auto loan or have lots of children.

    True, but ya gotta have that F-350 Super Duty and play Vatican Roulette, or you’re not a real man.

  109. 109.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Martin: I believe you and Soprano2 live in very different worlds and the young men in her town are not the same as the ones coming to you for career counseling. I have never lived in a rural area or a red city. I find Soprano2’s and Kay’s comments very informed and illuminating…and troubling.

    My father didn’t attend college but ended up, after many blue collar jobs, in a white collar one where he advanced and succeeded. He told me when I was 15 that he didn’t believe in inheritance but that he would pay for my college and buy me a car to get to a job that an education would lead to.  Not the easiest person to live with, it was clear this was my way to get out of state and be independent, which he also supported. He made it clear that barring some terrible accident or illness, I wasn’t welcome to live at home at age 18. From S2’s and Kay’s copious comments, I don’t think that’s a message where they live. A lot of parents don’t want their kids to leave.

  110. 110.

    Suzanne

    @Lyrebird: The number of women in manual trades of construction is small but rising. I see women painters and plumbers especially. And there’s plenty of women in the project management side of the contracting business.

    The real secret of contracting is that the tradespeople are never gonna make much money. It’s the college boys and girls with construction management degrees who make the real money.

  111. 111.

    Suzanne

    @Martin:

    Young men are unaccustomed to the amount of work needed now, and having to do it. The women who apply have higher test scores, higher GPAs, more extracurricular, etc. 

    This has been my experience with many (mostly white) men in my profession. There’s this undercurrent of “I met the expectations, where’s my reward?”, and the women in my profession have more of an attitude of always looking for ways to distinguish themselves. Quite frankly, they are hungrier for success. The downside is impostor syndrome and blaming themselves for failure, whereas the dudes seem to blame others.

  113. 113.

    Soprano2

    @Sure Lurkalot:A lot of parents don’t want their kids to leave.

    I was just talking to a co-worker about this today, because she’s taking another job and moving to St. Louis. I asked her if her family was upset, and she said mostly not. I told her about my best friend from high school whose hubby got a job working as a civilian for the Pentagon when they were in their early 30’s; it meant they had to move from K.C. to Virginia. Friend told me that her mother said she should divorce her husband rather than move that far away from her family! So yeah, many of them don’t want their kids to leave. In fact, that friend is a case study in that. Her mother was jealous of friend’s success, and actually didn’t want her to go to college at all (friend was our valedictorian). Friend’s mom had to drop out of H.S. in 10th grade to work and make money for the family. There’s still quite a bit of that here, people thinking “high school was good enough for me, it’s good enough for you”. Also, I think a lot of them are terrified that college will turn their kid into a gay liberal atheist. Sometimes they aren’t wrong, at least about the liberal part.

  114. 114.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Suzanne:

    There seems to be this sort of cultural memory of a time when manual laborers might not have made much money, but they commanded the admiration of people,

    When I grew up in the 60’s, my block was pretty much 50-50 white and blue collar. Construction workers, firefighters, dentists and businessmen. The economic differential wasn’t as great and each cohort had skills that everyone could use. Things really changed when white collar jobs started being far more lucrative and people of varying income and skills moved apart.

  115. 115.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Soprano2: It was in my first job after college that a man that I worked with told me he wasn’t saving anything for his kids’ college. He didn’t go, why should he pay for them to? I know I was sheltered and naive, but I had never heard this before. I was incredulous that someone would not want their own kids to have a “better” start in life, even if college doesn’t guarantee that (especially now given it’s exorbitant cost).

    I feel the same about not wanting your kids to go to college because they may be exposed to “different” ideas. It’s your kid, not your clone.

  116. 116.

    satby

    @Martin: Young men are unaccustomed to the amount of work needed now, and having to do it.

    And not just regarding college admission. I have seen it in men my sons’ ages (36,39), and least I be accused of ageism, my sons have commented on it too. My kids blame the helicopter parents some of their friends had for disabling their kids ability and ambition: they have friends both male and female (But always white) who they call entitled and lazy. We’re all working class, most never had hopes of going to college without taking on enormous debt. They used to be able to just fall into a union trades job, now there’s less of those and you have to compete to get them.

  117. 117.

    Suzanne

    @Sure Lurkalot:

    Things really changed when white collar jobs started being far more lucrative and people of varying income and skills moved apart. 

    I think assortative mating is also a big piece of this move apart. And sexism, I think, plays a huge role. I have experienced blue-collar men telling me directly that they deserve to make more money than I do, because manual labor is “harder” than intellectual labor. And I also see a lot of internet whinging (so who knows how accurate or representative that is?) about how many women don’t want to date blue-collar men. There has been a documented rise in assortative mating, meaning that college grads marry one another, thereby concentrating their resources and lifestyles.

    What’s funny is that they’re absolutely right, in some ways. I dated a few blue-collar dudes and there was some total FAIL there. I met Mr. Suzanne in graduate school. I found that it was deeper than an education divide. The non-college-degrees dudes that I met could not understand my aspirations as a person. They were not impressed and some were openly scornful of my goals. I’m not going to be compatible with someone like that.

  118. 118.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Tony Jay: I can see the head line now

    “Revelations of Republican consensus Trump need to be removed from power raises questions about Hunter Biden laptop.”

  119. 119.

    satby

    @Sure Lurkalot: The economic differential wasn’t as great and each cohort had skills that everyone could use. Things really changed when white collar jobs started being far more lucrative and people of varying income and skills moved apart.

    Yes, this too. There was an assumption of roughly equal social standing because work was valued. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians had different skills than the lawyers, teachers, and doctors, but they lived in the same neighborhood in the 50s & 60s when I grew up and went to the same schools.

  120. 120.

    Suzanne

    @Soprano2: The desire for kids to stay close is another on of those things that historically was pushed harder on the girl children than boy children. In lots of families, including mine, the girls were told that it was their role to care for their parents in their old age.

    I will never, ever, ever tell my kids this. I think it’s abusive.

  121. 121.

    Brachiator

    @Martin:

     

    I’ve never met a mom that didn’t want their son to go to college. Worried they couldn’t afford it? Sure. But always wanted them to go.

    Maybe middle class and upper middle class moms. This is not universal.

     

    Young men are slowly being squeezed out of college admission because they are overconfident.

    This is very interesting. I would never have thought about this, but it makes sense. But I guess that even when I was a student, I thought about my grades, but assumed that there was space enough for anyone who wanted to go to college, so never really thought about having to compete against other people for admission.

    Still I thought that the general trend was for more women to attend college, but that men still had an edge when it came to post college education and specialized programs.

    This is further exacerbated by gender roles. Universities are working very hard to get women into traditionally male-dominated fields like engineering, but the male applicants aren’t going after traditionally female-dominated fields. So across the board, the percentage of women entering each discipline is flat (and high) or rising, while the number of men is flat (and low) or declining. So for the male dominated fields, the standard for entry is skyrocketing because you have this serious increase in applications from women, who tend to be if anything overqualified for admission, as compared to the men who tend to be underqualified. Female dominated fields are looking to admit more men, but they have to apply, and they aren’t.

    Engineering is a niche profession. How many men or women try for these schools? Still, I take your point. I would also think that the problem is that female dominated jobs are seen as less socially desirable and, as you note, don’t pay as well.

    Also, a larger problem is that there has been a decline in manufacturing and construction jobs, and farm employment is unattractive to both men and women. So there are fewer jobs where men can earn a good living compared to previous generations. So from a male perspective, the pool of available and desirable jobs looks smaller to men than it does to women.

  122. 122.

    satby

    @Suzanne: It was the norm because there weren’t alternatives like nursing homes available to less than wealthy people. No Social Security until 1935, no Medicare until 1965.

  123. 123.

    Soprano2

    @Suzanne: The non-college-degrees dudes that I met could not understand my aspirations as a person. They were not impressed and some were openly scornful of my goals.

    I dated a guy who was extremely insecure about the fact that I had a college degree. He would make disparaging remarks, and when I called him on it he’d always say it was a joke. When he was drinking, though, it always came out as jealously and envy. My husband isn’t a college grad, but he took 2 years of courses when he was in the Army and was a captain when he left the Army. He was ambitious; he always said he didn’t care whether I made more money than he did or not, we’d both benefit from it!

  124. 124.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Soprano2: We have a national nursing shortage in the US and frankly need more men in nursing.  Nursing pays six figures in some parts of the country.

    But as you say, perceptions…

  125. 125.

    Suzanne

    @Brachiator:

    This is very interesting. I would never have thought about this, but it makes sense. But I guess that even when I was a student, I thought about my grades, but assumed that there was space enough for anyone who wanted to go to college, so never really thought about having to compete against other people for admission. 

    See, that’s exactly the difference in mindset I observe. I was terrified, absolutely terrified, that I wouldn’t get into any college. And I am a lifelong catastrophizer, so that almost instantly became envisioning a future of prostitution and working at McDonald’s and living under a bridge on a tarp. So I worked my fool ass off in school. Didn’t get accepted to Harvard or Stanford, but got in everywhere else I applied, and got a full academic scholarship. Meanwhile, my male classmates seemed utterly unconcerned. Like, they just seemed to think that the future would be just fine without any worrying about it at all!

    I remember a dude I dated who was encouraging me to slack off to hang out with him, and he told me, “C’s get degrees!”. I dumped him.

  126. 126.

    Geminid

    @satby: Tradesmen (and women) can still make good money in commercial construction, at least in economically dynamic areas like greater DC. The Steamfitters Union frequently advertises on DC news station WTOP, and their commercials air on another station during the pro football team’s games. My understanding is that steamfitters can earn a low six-figure income after a few years in the trade. Installing new sprinkler systems seems to be a big part of their work.

    I also hear ads by the International Brotherhood of Electricians. They seem to be aimed at general contractors as well as potential apprentices.

  127. 127.

    Jeffro

    @Kay:There’s an ongoing collapse in pro-institution sentiment among Republicans—who disapprove of colleges, big corporations, tech firms, media, entertainment, and unions. Basically: Everything is bad, except church.

    “Everything is against us…except Jesus” – GQP.  Well then, maybe y’all should think about that!  Essentially every part of a civilized society is leaving you behind, that’s why you don’t approve of them in return.

    Tell me that isn’t the sign of a party that will ‘rule or ruin’ (or should I say, RUIN)…complete dead-enders.

  128. 128.

    Roger Moore

    @Soprano2:

    I don’t understand what McConnell thought would happen, because without enough Republican votes in the Senate there was no way Democrats could “take care of that” for him!

    He knew that.  I think McConnell dislikes Trump personally and would be perfectly happy if something terrible happened to him.  But he cares a lot about protecting the Republican brand and his own political career, and he knows his opinion is not widely shared by the Republican base.  So much as he would love for something bad to happen to Trump, it’s more important to him that whatever bad happens to Trump not be traceable to him or Republican elected officials.  Since he couldn’t help the Democrats deal with Trump, his solution was to try to shift the blame and claim that failure to deal with Trump was all the Democrats’ fault.  And, of course, it’s mostly on the media that he was able to get away with it.

  129. 129.

    Kay

    @Geminid:

    If you know a young person who wants to get into a trade tell them to apprentice to an licensed elevator repair journeyman. They will have more work than they can possibly do. My son says they’re eccentric and “cultish” so that’s a plus :)

  130. 130.

    Suzanne

    @Geminid: I have heard project managers with national-level general contractors say, multiple times in the last five years, that they will not let anyone on their job site who is known to be LGBT because they do not want to deal with the issues of harassment that will arise.

    And they are correct, those issues will arise. I have been on jobsites, again, recently, where the tradespeople act like fucking animals. Catcalling and ogling women on the job site, including their fellow workers, etc. I had one job site where the dudes didn’t want to walk an additional 75 feet to a bathroom so they were pissing in a corner. And this was indoors, and these were union workers. So I am absolutely 100% unsympathetic to complaints of a lack of respect.

  132. 132.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Felanius Kootea: We have a national nursing shortage in the US and frankly need more men in nursing.  Nursing pays six figures in some parts of the country.

    We also have an serious shortage of mechanical engineers and that’s an entirely male dominated profession.

    My sister said that after getting her three kids threw school and into real careers the  problem is the high schools push everyone into programing, end of discussion and anyone who didn’t have the right temperament to be a programer was just so much trash as far the high schools were concerned. One is programer, two is a mechanical engineer and three is a theater stage director.

  133. 133.

    Roger Moore

    @Sure Lurkalot:

    A less damning explanation is that there’s something about this material that prevented it from being used by the paper.  Maybe it was only acquired months after the fact, so it was deemed to be untimely.  Maybe the reporters had trouble verifying it to the paper’s standards, again either blocking publication altogether or delaying it until it was deemed to be untimely.  Or something like that.  But since a book doesn’t have the same standards of timeliness, being out of date isn’t so important.  And, of course, once the book is published the material becomes timely again because it’s related to a current event and thus is ripe for publication.

  134. 134.

    Salt Creek

    @Sure Lurkalot:I think people tune out a lot in the summer.

    Maybe you weren’t around for the Watergate hearings back in ’73.

    It was in the summer and it was a hot topic.

  135. 135.

    Brachiator

    @Suzanne:

    See, that’s exactly the difference in mindset I observe. I was terrified, absolutely terrified, that I wouldn’t get into any college. And I am a lifelong catastrophizer, so that almost instantly became envisioning a future of prostitution and working at McDonald’s and living under a bridge on a tarp. So I worked my fool ass off in school.

    Prostitution or McDonald’s is grimly funny.

    But I should have made clear that in my family, college was an expectation. Everyone, male and female, who wanted to go to college went to college. And everyone respected education. A few who did not go to college were still expected to do something with their lives.

    People in my family, for at least three generations, on my mother’s side, went to college.

    I was also in a college bound clique. Everyone in my social group, male and female, went to college.

    And when I went to high school, there seemed to be plenty of jobs. And so men and women who did not go to college could get jobs as bank tellers, sales clerks, jobs in the auto industry, government jobs, etc.

  136. 136.

    Roger Moore

    @Martin:

    Somewhere in the leadup to the 2020 election, every Republican leader made a decision whether they were going to record every goddamn thing as evidence they were not a party to a crime, or not record anything because they were choosing to be a party to a crime.

    Yeah, and then there are the ones who knew they were party to a crime but decided to record everything so if things went south they’d have blackmail and/or states evidence material.  Or who didn’t understand why it was bad to take notes about their criminal conspiracy.

  138. 138.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Roger Moore: You may be right but it’s a troubling pattern, from former Trump officials like Bolton, to Woodward hiding that he knew Trump understood COVID-19 was airborne, to these current reporters.

    The pattern to me is that these are men who will be okay in the event of a GOP fascist takeover, because no one is coming for them. There’s no sense of urgency on their part, while some of us look at what’s happening in Florida and Texas and make sure we have enough savings for a one-way ticket back where we came from, in case events come to that. In the meantime, we fight on.

  139. 139.

    Kay

    Quote Tweet
    Acyn
    @Acyn
    · 2h
    Question: Did you advocate to President Trump to impose martial law as a way to remain in power?
    Greene: I do not recall
    Question: So you’re not denying you did it?
    Greene: I don’t remember

    She’s been lying all day up there. A member of the US House can’t remember if she advocated to impose martial law. It’s insulting to the people in the room who have to sit there and listen to her.

  140. 140.

    Suzanne

    @Kay: The comedian Gina Yashere was the UK’s first woman elevator engineer before she went into comedy. She’s been very forthcoming about the racism and misogyny she encountered in that role.

    I don’t know if people really get how those spaces are all about harassing and excluding women, LGBT people, and some minorities.

  141. 141.

    Geminid

    @Kay: Commercial scale maintenance, like for scales at stone quarries and truck stops, is another niche trade that pays well. New installations might pay as well.

    When it comes to vocational advice, though, my problem is that I don’t really know many people under 60. I have gotten to be on a first name basis with the young people at the Hunt Country Store, but they seem happy cooking, fishing, and going to local concerts.

  142. 142.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Kay: My good friend’s husband was an elevator repair man. Quite lucrative, excellent pension, early retirement. But it wrecked him physically. Shoulders and knees problematic, even after surgeries.

  143. 143.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Roger Moore: Seems to me the news here (I haven’t had time to read teh whole story yet, so I’m going by what I saw on the Maddow program) is that 1) McCarthy said he was going to tell trump to resign and 2 and more interesting to me) there was talk of bringing up a vote on the 25th Amendment

    I’ve seen a few people suggest that Martin and Burns probably had some kind of agreement with whoever Liz Cheney’s cat’s-paw in all this is not to release the information till the book came out, and that there may be some advantage to bringing it up now. That’s a much better argument than the circle-the-wagons, you-unwashed-don’t-understand-our-lofty-practices, and don’t get me started on the “if Darwin had to deal with twitter” asshole.

    And one person who’s been sitting on all this information: Liz “Profile In Courage” Cheney, and I’m guessing a few others

  144. 144.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Salt Creek: I’m an old so I was around during Watergate and I was dialed in. I guess we shall see what happens 50 years since. I hope you’re right that people will pay attention.

  145. 145.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: also, Mitch McConnell said a swear when he said the same thing to his aides over lunch that he said on teh Senate floor after the impeachment vote, cause we are somehow still a nation of schoolchildren

  146. 146.

    Kay

    @Suzanne:

    My son says it’s changing, fastest in the western part of the country. Maybe just for electricians. He was a “traveler” summer before last – not construction, at manufacturing plants for retools or expansion- and he did work all over and he met more female and gay travelers the further west he went. Women do split off into “residential” in his union more than men do, which is lower paying but less dangerous than a lineman or a high voltage, industrial setting.

  147. 147.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    We also have an serious shortage of mechanical engineers and that’s an entirely male dominated profession.

    Didn’t know that. I wonder why? Is the pay differential across engineering disciplines a factor?  I know that when I graduated from a computer science department in an engineering school, the average CS grad made way more than the average mechanical or electrical engineer.

  148. 148.

    Brachiator

    @Felanius Kootea:

    We have a national nursing shortage in the US and frankly need more men in nursing.

    Occupation choices are strange. In Southern California I’ve noticed more Hispanic American nurses and black nurses, and of course Filipino nurses. And black nurses have had to fight hard for acceptance and recognition. When I was in the hospital a few years ago, the worst nurses that I had were often the male nurses. But I don’t think this is because women are more naturally nurturing. In the 19th century men were teachers, nurses, and secretaries. Later these professions all came dominated by women, and it wasn’t just because the jobs were lower paying.

    There are anecdotes that originally telephone operators were equally male and female. But male operators were often more argumentative with callers and soon edged themselves out of a job.

    From a social history of the telephone. Teenage boys had worked in telegraph offices and were the first telephone operators.

    It turned out there was a problem with male switchboard operators: The boys, often barely in their teens, couldn’t seem to behave themselves. They had a tendency to roughhouse. And “when some other diversion held their attention, they would leave a call unanswered for any length of time, and then return the impatient subscriber’s profanity with a few original oaths,” wrote Marion May Dilts in her 1941 book, The Telephone in a Changing World.

    Hoping to find operators who’d be more attentive to their duties and not cuss out the customers, local phone companies began to recruit girls and young women. Often that meant going house to house, trying to persuade parents that telephone operator was a respectable job for their daughters.

    And of course now telephone operators are largely obsolete.

    Men still are allowed or encouraged to be less socially aware, less kind, less deferential. They are allowed to pay less attention to detail. These traits do not make for good nurses.

  149. 149.

    Suzanne

    @Kay:
    It’s changing, but slowly. All those job sites I just listed were in major cities in the western US, including LA, Vegas, San Diego, and working for major commercial GCs. There is still nowhere close to parity. It’s just going to take a while. In the meantime, I can’t fault anyone for not watching to work in those environments.

  150. 150.

    delk

    Seriously, if I could do it all over again I would have pestered my precinct captain for a streets and san job.

  152. 152.

    Geminid

    @Felanius Kootea: I wonder how it’s going for women draught persons. I think of Virginia State Senator Louise Lucas, who at age 23 went to work at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard as an Apprentice Shipfitter. Lucas excelled in her work as a naval architect’s assistant, and became the yard’s first woman Shipfitter in 1971.

    While working for the Navy Lucas earned a B.S. and a Masters degree, and ended her federal career as a manager. Then she embarked on a political career representing her native Portsmouth in the Virginia General Assembly.

    Now Lucas is the 78 year old President Pro Tempore of the Senate, and has led Democrats’ pushback against Governor Youngkin. I’d call her a gadfly, but Louise Lucas is really a gad-hornet.

    I like to think that Lucas is putting to work some of the skills she had to learn as a Black woman working in the white, male-dominated shipyard back in the 1960’s.

  154. 154.

    Ken

    @Soprano2: Might as well say yes, because if the answer was no she’d have said that.

    Maybe she’s worried that if she says no, they’ll respond with “People wish to introduce into evidence this recording….” From what I’m seeing in the above comments, it’s happened several times already.

  157. 157.

    tom

    @Geminid: I recently had my kitchen remodeled. The crew chief, who worked just as hard as the other guys, drove a late-model Mercedes sedan. I’m a well-paid software engineer and I don’t drive a fucking Mercedes.

    Skilled trades can do very well.

  158. 158.

    Elizabelle

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:  They could easily be fake.  Looks like Madison in the midst of Girls Gone Wild.

    POLITICO could not independently verify the photos, which are screenshots of original images. They were provided to POLITICO by a person formerly close to Cawthorn and his campaign. A second person formerly close to Cawthorn and his campaign confirmed the origin of the photos. The date the photos were taken is unclear, though they appear to show Cawthorn sitting in a wheelchair, indicating the event happened after his accident. In the photos, he is wearing a distinctive pendant necklace that has appeared in other images and videos of Cawthorn.

  159. 159.

    Elizabelle

    Bad jackals.  You have gotten me to click on a Politico link twice today.  The Gallegos item was way better.

  160. 160.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Don’t care. It’s not even a hidden kink, he apparently went to a silly party wearing this stuff. More power to him about that.

    I mean, he should still be tried for treason and thrown into jail, but I could care less about this.

  162. 162.

    Another Scott

    @Martin: Thanks for that.

    When I want to find simple answers, I often blame the media.  Where do white guys get the idea that the world is going to continue to be wired for them?  From the stories about Gates and Zuckerberg and all the rest of the tech zillionaires dropping out of college and being monsters to their coworkers and business relations and building a company that collect monopoly rents.

    “Nice guys finish last.”

    There’s a severe disconnect from the way society needs citizens to behave and the way things are portrayed on TV and in popular media.  It can be soul crushing, especially when sensible parents and teachers are not there to provide a counterpoint.

    This is not meant to minimize the huge hurdles that non-white non-men face.  They have it worse.  But the popular media (run by white men) pretty much (with notable exceptions) ignores them for leading roles or for subjects of concern.  If DC is wired for the GQP (and it is), then popular media is wired for white men.

    Everyone’s dreams and expectations are eventually crushed.  The lucky ones learn that lesson early and adjust their expectations and focus their efforts appropriately and end up being better and happier people.  Those who don’t learn that, yes, there are others smarter/stronger/prettier/funnier/more-interesting than you and you don’t always get what you want end up being miserable and/or monsters.

    Other times, I blame Disney.

    ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  163. 163.

    Another Scott

    @Brachiator: Engineering colleges are famously cut-throat.  When I went to Cincinnati for engineering grad school I would hear stories about the engineering college.  They intentionally structured the program so that about 25% of the students would fail the first year .  It was hard to get into the program, and hard to stay in the program – there was unrelenting competition.

    I would expect that many of the UCs were/are similar.

    I’m sure they have reasons for doing things that way, and maybe it works for them.  But it also weeds out people who have an aptitude for things that take time to develop (says he who didn’t do especially well in physics in college but got an engineering PhD).  And it’s probably excessively and needlessly stressful for those who can complete the program.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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