The second of the three hero patrons who stopped the Club Q shooter has given a statement:
Among the heroes identified by witnesses and officials in the Club Q shooting was U.S. Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Thomas James, who reportedly charged the suspected shooter with Richard Fierro and possibly others at the bar.
James, through a Centura Heath spokesman, issued a statement Sunday for the first time since the shooting at the Colorado Springs LGBTQ nightclub.
“I simply wanted to save the family I found,” James said. “If I had my way, I would shield everyone I could from the nonsensical acts of hate in the world, but I am only one person.”
“Thankfully, we are family, and family looks after one another,” James continued. “We came a long way from Stonewall. Bullies aren’t invincible. I want to support everyone who has known the pain and loss that have been all too common these past few years. My thoughts are with those we lost on Nov. 19, and those who are still recovering from their injuries. To the youth, I say be brave. Your family is out there. You are loved and valued. So when you come out of the closet, come out swinging.”
We also know there are more unnamed heroes, those who shielded folks from the shooter, those who led people to safety, and those who rendered aid to the injured. A reminder that one evil person with a gun, despite all the damage done, is outnumbered by good, caring, brave people.
And let’s not forget those we lost that night; here is a link to photos and stories on each of them: Derrick Rump, Daniel Aston, Ashley Paugh, Kelly Loving, and Raymond Green Vance
In our last post on the Club Q shooting, I expressed a desire to learn how to be a better ally. It seemed to strike a chord with others, so here we are. I’ve asked Sister Golden Bear and Dan B, who offered to help on this topic, to hang out with us and get things started. Dan B has a lot going on today but is going to try and stop by. So post your questions and offer any advice or resources you have. I know we have a diverse community here and can learn a lot from each other.
And we don’t need to limit this to LGBTQ+ issues. There are many folks out there who need allies – and this would be a great place to discuss, as well.
It really comes down to, how can we be better citizens and kinder humans, to our neighbors. Discuss. Please be kind.
TaMara
Dan B is going to try to stop by, if he can’t, he emailed me some resources I’ll add later in the post. Also, the vet just called and Trixie’s spay has been moved up from next week to tomorrow, I’ve got some things to get ready. I will monitor this thread as I can.
Sister Golden Bear
Thanks TaMara, hope Trixie vet visit goes smoothly.
TaMara
@Sister Golden Bear: Thanks for being here. It takes some time for comment threads to get going, so don’t worry if it’s slow at first.
Orange is the New Red
I am very interested in hearing more about how to be an ally. We just moved to our state, not sure what actions would be helpful. We have written postcards about potential legislation we abhor, just feeling like that’s not enough.
Sure Lurkalot
I have a transgender neighbor…they and their partner keep to themselves. I’ve had a couple of very brief conversations at the mailbox and even such short encounters led to common interests such as travel. In short, I would love to have a very casual friendship but how? I don’t know if the seclusion is come by naturally or by habit or something worse.
ETA I may be totally wrong in wanting to be a friend and an ally.
Ixnay
Some wise one said, if you do this for the least of these my bretheren AND sisteren, you have done it for me.
TaMara
This was beautiful, if you haven’t seen it.
Sister Golden Bear
politely and discretely. Or use “they/them.”
Omnes Omnibus
Since this seems kind of quiet, I will kick things off with my straight-white-mansplaining of how I see it. If nothing else, rhetorically kicking my ass should get things moving. I think that It means showing up in support, marching with, standing shoulder to shoulder with members of a marginalized group. Listening when they speak. Checking to see when I fuck up and trying to get it right in the future. And, at times, using my position of privilege to speak up for these groups when no one else is there or when it would be dangerous for them to do it.
I try to do these things, but, like anyone, I can probably do better.
bbleh
I’m sure it’s not at all a new thought, but just for myself, what I find both supportive and unusual enough to be refreshing is simply not to be treated at all differently: no quiet frowning or covert glances, no evident avoidance of topics, no forced or over-the-top friendliness or solidarity. Just, like, another neighbor or coworker, or a person with whom you might (or might not) strike up a conversation about whatever (and who might at some point mention his husband / her wife).
Simple thing to say, of course, and certainly more difficult in practice for people who have been conditioned to think otherwise, and still difficult to calibrate for people who are consciously working to overcome the conditioning (and good on them for that!). In my experience, it comes more naturally to younger people — say, under 35 or so — who seem not to have been conditioned the way many older people have, so yay social progress!
Partner adds: please avoid explaining or excusing actual or potential behavior on anyone’s part by saying “I have / (s)he has a ____ friend who’s gay” or something similar; it’s demeaning, even if unintentionally.
ETA: and yes, for those inclined to more active support, absolutely any political support — marching, harassing elected representatives, representing in groups and meetings — and perhaps most importantly, expressing disapproval (in an appropriate way) if/when other friends or family make bigoted or demeaning comments about LGBTQ people or the community. But this IMO is a nice-to-have; it’s more important not to be part of the problem than to feel like you have to be an active part of the solution. (And after all, not being part of the problem is being part of the solution.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Sister Golden Bear: The everyday things of treating people like people.
Sister Golden Bear
@Orange is the New Red: I’ll get to your question in a sec, since it’s more complex.
@Sure Lurkalot: Unfortunately, many trans people (especially those of us who are older) are a bit guarded out of past and present safety concerns. My therapist says pretty much all her older LBGTQ+ clients have some degree of CPSTD from the discrimination, and sometimes, violence, we’ve endured.
Probably the best you can do is find ways to signal you’re on their side, and you’re “safe,” but depending on their life history they may/may not decide to pursue a friendship. I don’t know if you’ve explicitly told them that they seem interesting and you’d like to get to know them better, but that might be one place to start.
Alison Rose
Speaking as a queer cis woman, I will say one key point that some folks seem to forget is to realize and recognize that people of marginalized identities know more than you do about what they face in the world, what their lives are like, and especially what is bigotry when they see it. I’ve had many times where cis/het people have done the “Oh, I don’t think that was meant to be homophobic/transphobic, I think it was just blah blah blah.” (You also see this with white people regarding racism, goyim regarding antisemitism, TAB folks regarding ableism, and so on.) If a trans person says that something someone said or did was transphobic, do not debate them about it. If a queer person tells you about an instance of homophobia, do not well actually them.
And on issues of social justice, do not do “devil’s advocate” shit, because in this area especially, the devil already has plenty of advocates–he doesn’t need your ass adding to the chorus.
japa21
@Omnes Omnibus:
Always good advice, and also make sure you are hearing what they are saying. And, I would say, don’t be afraid to ask for clarification.
Sister Golden Bear
@Omnes Omnibus:
You’ve done an excellent job of summarizing the points I was going to make to @Orange is the New Red.
One minor addition, if someone from a marginalized group lets one know you fucked up, it’s because they trust you to make an effort to change. Think of it like someone pointing out that you’ve got spinach in your teeth.
Darkrose
The communications director at my library wanted to put up a resources page related to the shooting, so a co-worker and I volunteered. It was just posted:
Resources for Understanding: Addressing Violence against LGBTQIA+ People
This is a first iteration; we wanted to get it up in time for the campus DEI office to include in their weekly newsletter. We focused on trans issues in particular, because we felt that the shooting was the inevitable result of the current wave of anti-trans hate rhetoric and legislation.
I want to add more journal articles, as well as some news articles about the incident, and especially some pieces I’ve seen about what Club Q meant to the Colorado Springs LGBTQIA+ community. If anyone has any recommendations, please let me know.
Sister Golden Bear
On a concrete level, if you’re in one of the all-too-many states that’s considering anti-trans laws, we absolutely need you to speak up on our behalf. We’re less than 1% of the population (last study estimated the adult trans population around 1.7 million people in the States) so we don’t have the political leverage to get things done without allies.
If you see something, say something. Push back against the “groomer” accusations against LGBTQ+ — which are now becoming straight up accusations of pedophilia. These aren’t conspiracy theories, they’re justifications to eradicate us.
TaMara
I have two (separate) friends who have young adult children who are transgendered. It’s all relatively new for them, and I’m wondering how best to support them. What’s intrusive to ask? I don’t want to ignore it, but I don’t want to be inappropriate. I want them to support them while they support their children. It’s amazing how worry about being inappropriate can leave you frozen, even with close friends.
Sister Golden Bear
@bbleh:
Damn straight, so to speak. Or maybe damn not-so-straight.
Sure Lurkalot
@Sister Golden Bear: Thanks, they are older, I’d say 70’s. If an occasion arises, I think I’d go with “I’d love to hear more about your travels” and see where it goes. I also notice they walk the neighborhood park whereas the partner doesn’t so with luck, I will run into them setting out on a walk.
Sister Golden Bear
@Darkrose: Hopefully we won’t have another Club Q or Pulse massacre again (although I’m not holding me breath). But should one happen, if you’ve got LGBTQ+ people in your life, please offer condolences. I realize you may not know what to say, but that’s why we have stock phrases we use when tragedies occur.
One of the loneliest moments I had was after Pulse where I was really hurting and the silence from my cis-het friends and co-workers was deafening.
That said, please don’t make it about you, and there’s definitely some LGBTQ+ folks who’d prefer not to hear from cis-het folks because they feel pressured to do emotional labor reassuring cis-het folks that they’re one of the “good ones.” So if you say something, leave it up to the LGBTQ+ to say whether they want to talk more about it.
Sister Golden Bear
@Alison Rose: Agreed on all points.
TaMara
Some notes from Dan B, who checked in again via email and may still be able to stop by:
Sister Golden Bear
@TaMara: Minor point, it’s children who are transgender, not who are transgendered.
That said, I’d probably start by just asking the parents how best to support them and their children. If they’re looking for resources, I can definitely help with that. PFLAG is often a good place to start.
TaMara
@Sister Golden Bear: That’s not a minor point, these things matter. Thanks.
Darkrose
@Sister Golden Bear: The reason I volunteered for this project was because I identify as queer: I’m bi and mostly cis but maybe non-binary; I definitely would identify as NB if I had realized that was an option earlier in my life.)
Putting the guide together was hard, but it gave me a focus for my anger.
Dan B
Hello from hurry up and wait land. One resource I recommend for getting an idea of LGBTQ+ issues and what we’re subjected to is JoeMyGod blog. He’s political, and some culture issues, plus Adam Silverman approved. The last post of the day at 8PM gets a little wild with lots of pictures of good looking guys in minimal clothing. Avoid if it’s not your cup of tea.
On days ending in ‘y’ there are posts on right wing lies and outrage. There are reports on religious groomers and shutting down discussion on LGBTQ+ topics.
A few days scanning the site will give you a clue about what the MSM dies not cover.
Sister Golden Bear
@TaMara: I agree with DanB, Joe.My.God. is an excellent place to keep up on LGBTQ+ (and other political news). I suspect it will be eye-opening to a number of people.
BTW, Joe has written what I think is one of the definitive pieces on why Pride celebrations matter to us. The tl;dr version is (riffing on the Jewish in-joke that sums up the meaning of all Jewish holidays):
BTW, it’s almost time for Joe’s annual reposting of his lovely “Dance of the Sugar Pulm
Given what’s happening on the bird app, I don’t know how long he’ll be there, but Chase Strangio, a trans rights attorney is also a good person to follow. I don’t know if he’s now also on other platforms.
Gunga Dean
“Come Out Swinging!” Amen to that!
CarolPW
Years ago The Stranger (probably around the time of the Muslim ban) posted an approach for what one could do responding to verbal public aggression against someone else, like on a bus or in a store. It was to walk up to the person being abused and start a conversation about the weather, their shoes, a news item, flowers, your gall stones, or whatever. Avoids a confrontation with the bully by ignoring them and gives the target relief. It is a deescalation action that doesn’t take wit or strength, and as an old lady I knew it was something I could actually do. And if your bus stop comes up or you leave the store, take them with you and call a taxi to get them home.
I’ve been able to do some of that in minor confrontations, and walking off with someone chatting about the vegetables at the farmers market works pretty well.
ETA: it was probably after the guy got stabbed on a bus after intervening.
geg6
@Sister Golden Bear:
“One minor addition, if someone from a marginalized group lets one know you fucked up, it’s because they trust you to make an effort to change. Think of it like someone pointing out that you’ve got spinach in your teeth.”
Wise words and ones I have found to be true in my own learning process with my LGBTQ+ friends, relatives and co-workers. And also anyone else in my life who is not a white, cis woman like me.
TaMara
@Sister Golden Bear: Okay, I will put on my big girl pants and jump in. I especially want my friend to know I’m there if she needs to vent about her ex-husband’s inability to accept their daughter now.
Sister Golden Bear
@Darkrose:
I’m sure. Thank you for doing it.
Sister Golden Bear
I’ll add to @Dan B’s list of organizations:
National Center for Transgender Equality
Transgender Law Center in CA
Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund in NY
If you’re an attorney, one concrete and very important way you can help, is offering them your pro bono services. And if you’re a bigger firm, asking your associates if they’d like to do so. All three groups have been involved in some very significant cases that are both doing good and proving good experience.
Also, if you know someone who’s transitioning, TLC has a good set of guides to changing one’s legal name and gender. (FWIW, they’re also good for anyone changing their name for whatever reason.)
Starfish
@TaMara: I came here to make sure this was posted in the thread. It was so great.
Dan B
One thing to look for are any groups fighting against banning of “sexually explicit material” in libraries. They are banning LGBTQ+ books that are not sexual. There are stories about families and people living their lives. There are threats to librarians and right wing Christianists taking over school boards. It’s a local version of the “Don’t say gay” laws.
Ruckus
I have learned over almost 50 yrs of knowingly being around humans who’s genders/gender associations were not the same as mine, say hello, not what are you. Do not speak gender. Treat humans as humans. They may or may not be in the same sexual category as you or what you expect from how they look but treat that like it does not make any difference – because it doesn’t. They are human, be human, be accepting, say hi or hello, I’m whomever, what’s your name if you haven’t been introduced. If you have use their name. Gender is not nearly as clear cut as many think or recognize. And it isn’t important unless you are trying to hook up. And at that time the person will inform you that you may be barking up the wrong tree.
H.E.Wolf
Warmest thanks to our valued LGBTQIA+ commenters who are offering resources and advice on how to be better allies. The suggestions – and you yourselves – are much appreciated!
Starfish
@TaMara: Was it your experience that several teens in your orbit transitioned during the pandemic? This was my experience.
zhena gogolia
Great thread, thanks.
Starfish
I put a rainbow ribbon on my hat for the pride parade months ago, and I left it there. I have met some nice people while wearing my hat.
TaMara
@Starfish: I’m not sure if it was the pandemic or the fact both kids graduated from high school and maybe felt safer telling friends and family once out of that environment.
Ruckus
@Sister Golden Bear:
Think of it like someone pointing out that you’ve got spinach in your teeth.
Ok I chuckled a bit at that. It really is that simple.
TaMara
By the way – that Groomer bullshit gets a straight-up “get out of here with that garbage” from me. I don’t suffer idiots – family or otherwise – who spread those lies.
If they challenge me, I go on to name a bunch of actual Republican sex offenders who targeted children. There’s a long list to choose from.
Sister Golden Bear
A little more from my Trans 101 FAQ, in case it useful for people. Feel free to steal from and/or reuse.
How do I interact with someone who is trans, or who I think might be trans?
Umm, kind of like anyone else? Refer to, respond to, and interact with all people by the gender they identify as, regardless of what their body looks like or the gender you think they might be. It’s a matter of basic human decency. In fact, just be nice to everyone around you.
Trans woman/trans man – which one to I use to describe someone?
The words aren’t trying to trick you — a trans man is a man, a trans woman is a woman. It’s that simple! Transgender people don’t want to be, and aren’t pretending to be, men or women. Transgender people are men or women (or both or neither, we’ll get to that later) and those who transition, do so to better reflect that internal sense of who they are.4
What pronouns do I use with a transgender person? What do I do if I make a mistake? And what’s the big deal with pronouns anyway?
If you’ve ever been misgendered yourself, it was probably a disconcerting, and possibly hurtful, experience. Same thing for trans people. It’s a bee sting to the heart. (And if you think cis people don’t care about this themselves, see what happens if you misgender their pet.)
Just use whatever pronouns someone tells you they use – after all, they know better than you what gender they are. If you’re really not sure, simply ask (in a respectful and discrete way, of course). Or if you’re not comfortable asking, just use the always handy, gender neutral “they/them.” Don’t call trans people an “It.” Just don’t. A table lamp is an “it.”
If you make a mistake with a pronoun or name, move on, and make sure that you use the correct name and pronoun the next chance you get. Don’t make a big deal out of it – it’ll just make things uncomfortable for everyone. If you’re alone with the person, apologize and drop it. We trans people know the difference between an accidental slip-up and intentional misuse.
Which restrooms do trans people use?
We use the restroom that’s right for us, just like you use the restroom that’s right for you, i.e. a trans woman uses the women’s restroom and a trans man uses the men’s restroom. We just want to get in, take care of business, and get out (after washing our hands of course)
So what does “transgender” mean?
Transgender – or trans – is an umbrella term for people, including transsexual people, whose gender identity or expression is different from the sex assigned to them at birth (e.g., the sex listed on their birth certificate). Not all trans people transition, in fact most don’t (for reasons we’ll get to), but it may seem that way since the vast majority of people who are “publicly trans” either are transitioning or have transitioned.
Conversely being cisgender – or cis – is when your experience of yourself matches what sex you were assigned at birth. E.g. when you were born, the doctor declared you female (or male), and ever since you identify as a woman (or man). That’s it. Being cisgender is not “normal,” just common. If that all sounds a bit unfamiliar, just remember that if you’re cisgender, you may not have ever thought much about your gender identity or expression. Gender is kind like of underwear — if it fits you don’t notice, and if it doesn’t you can’t avoid noticing.
What’s this “gender identity or expression” thing you mentioned?
Gender identity is a primary aspect of gender. It is how you see and feel about yourself. As you can imagine, if the gender you were assigned at birth doesn’t match your own mental and psychological experience of yourself, that can cause a lot of discomfort. That kind of discomfort is called “gender dysphoria.” For some trans people, the gender dysphoria is strong enough that to ease it, you must live as the gender you see yourself as (what’s referred to as “transitioning”) and/or must physically modify your body to bring it into alignment with your gender identity.
Gender expression is all about how you demonstrate your gender through the ways you act, dress, behave, and interact — whether that’s intentional or unintended. Gender expression is interpreted by others perceiving your gender based on a particular society’s traditional gender roles (e.g., men wear pants, women wear dresses).
If a person is trans, does that mean they’re gay?
Nope, gender identity is about who you are; sexual orientation is about who you’re physically, spiritually, and emotionally attracted to. Two different things. Just like cisgender people, trans people can be straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, etc.
What’s “transitioning”
“Transitioning” is the process of changing one’s life to live as one’s authentic self. There is no “right” or “wrong” way to transition, and it’s different for every trans person. It’s a complex process that may involve any or all of the following:
How many transgender people are there? Have transgender people always existed?
A 2016 study by the Williams Institute estimated that at least 1.4 million adults in the United States identify as transgender — about 0.6% of the population (or 1 in every 166 people).11 That’s a low-end estimate, since it did not include minors who identify as transgender, and there are many trans people who remain closeted, often deeply so.
Transgender persons have been documented in numerous Western, Eastern and indigenous cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender and gender nonconformity varies from culture to culture — some cultures have four, five or even six genders. Mind blown.
There is no single explanation for why some people are transgender. The diversity of transgender expression and experiences argues against any simple or single explanation. Many experts believe that biological factors such as genetic influences and prenatal hormone levels, early experiences, and experiences later in adolescence or adulthood may all contribute to the development of transgender identities. However, medical experts have long agreed that it’s a medical condition not a mental illness – although some people still believe this misconception about transgender people. For most trans people the main problem is not within ourselves, the problem is how other people treat us,
What types of transgender people are there?
Many gender identities fall under the transgender umbrella. Many trans people self-identify as “trans” precisely because it’s an umbrella term. (A quick digression: “transgender” is an adjective, not a noun. Your co-worker or friend is trans or a transgender person. They are not “a transgender” or a “transgendered person” – just like someone isn’t a “gayed” or “lesbianed” person.) Some trans people may feel the need to transition, some may not. Some people explicitly reject “transgender” as a label, and use the different terms. It can be complicated, and language used continues to evolve rapidly. But some of the more commonly used terms include:
Why don’t many trans people want to be “out”?
“Coming out” to other people as lesbian, gay, or bisexual is typically seen as revealing a truth that allows others to know your authentic self. The cisgender LGB community places great importance and value on the idea of being “out” in order to be happy and whole. However, for trans people, being “out” can put the focus on who people thought you were, rather than who you are. It can also be a safety issue – in 2016 more than two dozen trans people in the U.S. were killed in hate crimes. Some trans people may choose to publicly discuss their lives in an effort to raise awareness and make cultural change, but many trans people feel happy and whole without generally disclosing that they’re transgender.
In short, don’t “out” a trans person without their permission.
Sister Golden Bear
@Dan B: Plus the groups banning “sexually explicit” materials often are trying to also ban books by/about people of color.
Sister Golden Bear
@TaMara: FWIW, in all the years of the bathroom hysteria (and before) I know of exactly one case of a trans woman acting sexually inappropriately (peeping Tom) in a dressing room (not a bathroom) — and she was arrested and prosecuted, which was entirely appropriate.
There’s a reason why the accusations of bathroom predators and groomers never mention actual specific cases — because they don’t exist. Now Republicans and youth pastors…. Joe.My.God. usually has at least one news story, if not several, about them getting arrested for sex crimes with minors.
Ruckus
@Sister Golden Bear:
In short, don’t “out” a trans person without their permission.
I’d make that don’t “out” anyone without their permission. Who and what we are belongs to each individual, not to the rest of the world.
Alison Rose
@Sister Golden Bear: The issue about bathrooms that really gets me is when the right acts like if we let trans folks use the bathroom that matches their gender, then all these rapists will take advantage and go wild. As though rapists until now would be following someone (always a woman in the right’s scenarios) but then she goes into a public bathroom and the rapist dude is like “Dang! Foiled again! I can’t possibly pass through that door when it has the stick figure wearing a triangle on it!!!”
Plus, these assholes are also the ones who barely accept anything as being rape unless it’s the most cliché stereotypical version of it and who snickered at and mocked people like Christine Blasey Ford. Yet when it comes to a trans woman being like “can i please go pee” suddenly right wingers are all worried about sexual assault victims.
Joy in FL
@Sister Golden Bear: Thank you so much for this post.
Sister Golden Bear
@Alison Rose: Plus the bathroom panic has resulted in a number of butch lesbians (and taller, less “feminine” straight women) being harassed or even assaulted in women’s restroom because they’re accused of being men
The other thing that grinds my gears is the TERFs actively defended a transphobic woman who openly admitted sexually assaulting a number of women.
Eolirin
I really wish I wasn’t so tired right now, since this thread was opened up to be for any marginalized group, cause lemme tell you how much we all need to have a conversation around mental health and disability issues.
Sister Golden Bear
@Eolirin: Those are definitely important issues to also discuss. Perhaps one of the front pages could set up a separate thread for that.
There’s obviously a number of similarities, albeit also important differences.
C Stars
Hello, thanks for hosting this! People find it really hard to use they!them pronouns. I had trouble adjusting to it myself, when my then 6-year-old asked us! I find this is a pretty good resource to learn more about how to use they/them. https://pronouns.org/
Eolirin
@Sister Golden Bear: Yeah, and I think, at least for this community, we do a better job on trans and queer issues. Though most people here are pretty good at listening at least. I think it’s mostly an education issue, mental health in particular is much more complicated to explain, and the extent to which the medical community has historically failed and abused people with mental health issues is far less known.
Though ideally such a post happens when my chronic fatigue isn’t kicking my ass, not that timing that is ever going to be anything but luck.
Sister Golden Bear
@C Stars: If it helps, we already use singular they/them pronouns for an individual when their gender is unknown. E.g. “Someone left their cell phone behind. I wonder if they’ll come back and get it? Maybe we should take it to the counter so the barista can give it back to them.”
Plus singular they/them was good enough for Shakespeare….
Alison Rose
@Sister Golden Bear: Yes, I’ve had a couple butch friends who have been harassed in just that situation. It’s repugnant and horrifying.
And TERFs, well…they’re the bottom of the barrel, and they seem to love it down there.
Sister Golden Bear
@Eolirin: I hope you have more days with more spoons.
C Stars
I am not queer or trans, but I am the mom of a queer trans person. One thing that I’d like to mention is that when we see a pride pin or bumper sticker or T-shirt, or when someone asks pronouns (or alternately doesn’t assume pronouns), or otherwise demonstrates their allyship, it means a huge amount to us, and to my kid. It means they are probably safe, they are probably welcome in this space or to this person, it means they probably won’t be asked intrusive questions, or asked to explain themself. So don’t be shy about showing which side you’re on.
Obviously not, like, shouting “I love LGBTQ+ people!” apropos of nothing, or saying “Ooooh I’ve always wanted a nonbinary patient!” (A Dr. actually said this to us once. We were extremely skeeved out and did NOT return.) But something subtle just to let people know you care.
Eolirin
@Sister Golden Bear: Thank you. Me too. Been a rough few weeks. Some of the extra external stresses I’ve been dealing with are starting to improve at least, so I’m hopeful things will get a little better soon.
Percysowner
This kind of belongs here, I think. My grandchild goes to a pre-school that is in a Unitarian Universalist church. The Church also has an elementary school that uses the grounds for their kids. The church and the other school decided to have a HoliDdrag story time this weekend. Some of the local Drag Performers are going to show up, read some stories, sing some holiday songs do seasonal fun kind of stuff. Sadly, the Ohio Proud Boys are also promising to show up. The police have said they will be there to prevent violence. My grandchild’s school has been outside as much as possible this year, what with COVID and all, but this week, the kids have been kept inside.
I won’t go to the show because the family has been sick with bad colds all this week and because I don’t do indoor activities with people. There will be a live stream of the show and a donation page where all the donations go to local LGBTQ organizations. I’m going to buy the live stream and donate to the cause.
What really makes this tough is my grandchild has been saying for about a year that they are both a boy and a girl, so this is going to be close to home for us and probably sooner that later.
Alison Rose
@C Stars: A friend who is an HR manager said that one thing she does and encourages others to do, particularly around they/them pronouns, is to use them out loud to yourself if you’re thinking of the person. Like if my friend needed to have an employee sign something, instead of just thinking it in her head, she’d say out loud to herself, “Oh, I need Jay to sign this, I should email them now and ask when they have time to look it over.” Sort of getting your mind used to using the pronouns in connection with that person.
Omnes Omnibus
I guess one of the other things is that for all of us white/straight/het/cis/etc. people, it is important to always remember that if we have some issue with people who aren’t like us, it is our issue. It is not the responsibility of trans people to educate us. It is our job to educate ourselves.
So, thank you Sister Golden Bear, Dan B, and everyone else who is taking the time and effort to help us with this.
MomSense
This is awesome! Thank you for this post. I thought of a few more resources. The Unitarian Universalist Association has a welcoming congregation program with some helpful guidelines and local churches often run workshops. There is some info online as well. There is also the Our Whole Lives human sexuality course for preschool through elder adult. It’s open to everyone and it is taught in small groups so you can really get in depth in a safe place with trained facilitators.
C Stars
@Sister Golden Bear: Exactly! We use the singular they in many constructions all the time, but for some reason it’s a real hurdle for folks to connect that with using it all the time for a specific person. But trying and not feeling sure you’re doing it right is much much better than not trying, AND the more you use it, the better you get!
C Stars
@Alison Rose: that’s a great suggestion. Once you start thinking that way, it feels much more natural coming out of your mouth.
Sister Golden Bear
@C Stars: Definitely.
Your mentioning being a parent, reminded me of another group that can make a difference that allies can get involved in. Free Mom (and Dad) Hugs. is a group that does exactly what their name says, they go to Pride and other LGBTQ+ events and offer free mom/dad hugs to anyone who wants one. (They also offer resources at their website.)
Even though I’m not a parent I’ve done it, and it ranges from just fun to hugely emotional — for LBGTQ+ folks who’ve been disowned and/or kicked out of their homes by their parents, it can be really cathartic. Even if you don’t feel comfortable being a hugger, you can still come out be supportive.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Sister Golden Bear: thanks for doing this and for the tips. I have to say I love your nym. Did you go to Cal?
Eolirin
@Omnes Omnibus: I know it’s covered by the etc, but neurotypical is a big one on the list.
I’m not as in tune with the current language used by the broader disability community, but our issues, mental health, physical or otherwise, are often very invisible.
And as much as I respect that recognition that education isn’t the responsibility of marginalized groups, we do need to advocate and educate too. And we do. Real understanding is only going to come from dialog. It’s fine if it’s on our terms.
zhena gogolia
@Sister Golden Bear: This is so helpful.
Torrey
Thank you to everyone who has provided information here. Much needed and much appreciated.
Omnes Omnibus
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): That ‘nym always evokes a damned earworm for me.
C Stars
@Percysowner: Ugh those “proud boys” really are a pitiful bunch. Thank you for supporting the programming.
I actually never took my nonbinary kiddo to a drag library hour when they were a younger child because I felt very wary of the concept of making comedy out of exaggerated or ironic representations of “feminity.” It just didn’t seem like the right kind of message to send to my kiddo at that time…like “If you experiment with gender, people will see you as a joke.” Now they are 12 and we’ve talked about drag and have seen some drag shows, but it’s not really something my kid is into or relates to at all.
mali muso
Thanks so much for this thread. Very helpful. I have a question regarding pronouns. I have started using them when introducing myself in a group setting (ie. as the facilitator for a large group discussion), just to try to set the tone and normalize it, as I know there were different gender identities in the room. Then of course I spent the next day second guessing myself. Inclusive or performative?
Sister Golden Bear
@Omnes Omnibus:
Spring boarding off your comment about “It is our job to educate ourselves,” it’s also not the job of gay bars to provide safe spaces for straight women, it’s the job of cis-het folks to make all bars safe for women.
Straight people hanging out in gay bars is a touchy and complicated subject. The short version is remember that gay bars (and the last dozen or so lesbian bars in the States) are our safe spaces/community centers/dating grounds, and you’re a guest, so behave like one.
Back when I performed, it was fairly common to get bridal parties coming to see drag shows — when LGBTQ+ people couldn’t get married. OTOH, they were often good tippers (remember make it rain for your drag performers, it costs a lot of money to look that cheap). OTOH, for some of them it was clearly like going to the zoo, and for the worst of them it was trip to the gay petting zoo where they’d grope gay men and even the performers. (Yes, I was sexually assaulted by a straight woman once.). And don’t be the straight girl who thinks she can cut in line at the bar because she’s cute. It may work with straight men, but gay men don’t give a shit if you’re cute.
Obviously individual bars will differ — gay bars in smaller communities tend to be more of mix of gays/lesbians/bisexuals — and it also differs by context. E.g. if there’s a drag show/drag brunch it’s expected there will be a number straight folks in the audience (as was the case at Club Q).
Or if you’re being taken there by LGBTQ+ friends that’s going to be more acceptable. But again, you’re a guest. If you get hit on, don’t make a big deal out of it. (Also be aware that it’s acceptable for gay men for be far more direct when cruising.) You may also see things that make it clear you’re not in Kansas any more. E.g. at some gay bars there will be gay porn playing on the TV instead of sports, in some there may be gay men hooking up in the back room, in leather bars you might see someone wear ass-less chaps and not much else, etc. Be like Fonz, be cool with it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Sister Golden Bear:
Are there any other kind?
Sister Golden Bear
@mali muso: That’s why it’s best practice that if you’re going to do introductions with pronouns, always do so, not just when you think there’s someone who’s trans/non-binary in the group. Because I guarantee you that sooner or later there’s gonna be a trans/non-binary person who you don’t realize is there, and if you skip doing pronouns for a presumably all cisgender group, they’re gonna consider it performative allyship.
Sister Golden Bear
@Omnes Omnibus: Well not really, but cowboys usually don’t pair them with a thong.
Though I can’t vouch for what Baud might/might not wear with them.
Dan B
@TaMara: Read JoeMyGod and your quiver of GOP and Christianist pedophiles will be showing a surplus. And the rapists, abusers, and creeps will be like the Mississippi.
MSM is not interested because it’s not “News” and it can’t be both sided, MF’ers.
LeftCoastYankee
Thanks for this thread. It’s very informative and welcoming, and I suspect my non-linear brain will find it a good future reference/reminder. Thanks all!
Sister Golden Bear
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): Yes indeed I’m a proud third-generation Cal graduate (and long-suffering masochist given our football team).
@Omnes Omnibus: Earworms are us!
Omnes Omnibus
@Sister Golden Bear:
Not being Baud, a cowboy, or a regular habitue of a leather bar, I wasn’t completely sure.
Sister Golden Bear
@mali muso: Sorry I didn’t read your comment closely enough.
Introducing oneself with pronouns has gotten to be a little bit performative allyship, but I’d rather have people do so that not. It’s less important to be since I’m a number of years post-transition, but for someone who’s not out, it’s definitely one of the signals that you’re “safe.”
mali muso
@Sister Golden Bear: Thanks for that perspective. I do think that I will try to make the pronouns a habit for any group introduction going forward, particularly since the people I interact with (college students) are increasingly diverse in their identities.
TaMara
Thanks to everyone for participating in this thread. I’m going to bow out for a little bit to get some work done, since tomorrow is probably going to be a loss.
I’ll drop back in later…and will bookmark it because lots of good information here.
Sister Golden Bear
@C Stars:
I can definitely understand. That said, at least with younger kids, they usually see drag performers more as a fun “dress-up” character. Not unlike having an Elsa performer at a kid’s birthday party.
Also while drag queens (who aren’t just gay men) often* perform femininity in exaggerated/ironic ways, they also are also examples of fierce and powerful femininity. (Thus the 11th Commandment: Thou shalt not fuck with drag queens.) There’s also drag kings, who also fierce and often lampoon toxic masculinity. There’s also genderqueer/genderfuck drag performers, also that seems to be more of an SF thing, who intentionally deconstruct/play with gender in their performances.
But if your non-binary kids isn’t into drag and doesn’t relate to it, that’s fine. Different strokes, different folks.
*There’s also trans folks like me who used drag as a way of exploring their gender identity. For myself it was more “female personation” (“female impersonation” usually connoted someone imitating a particular performer, e.g. Cher, Madonna, etc.). Plus I wasn’t really impersonator a woman, I was expressing being one on the stage. So my style was much more woman performer done up for the stage than “drag queen!”.
MomSense
@Percysowner:
Can you share the link with us? I’d like to purchase the live stream and show my support.
Alison Rose
@C Stars: Yeah, it was helpful for me when I’ve had trans friends who changed their first names when they came out/transitioned. One person was someone I’d know as one name for about a decade, and the new name was completely different, but saying it aloud to myself really helped sort of…recalibrate my brain, you know?
Dan B
@Sister Golden Bear: AND the original book burning in Berlin was of the books by a scientist (name – spacing out*) who was studying LGBTQ people.
* probably easy to Google. I’m still taking care of my partner.
Sister Golden Bear
@Alison Rose: I make the analogy of trans people changing their names with people changing their last names after they get married. Somehow people usually can do so without much difficulty.
Dan B
@Sister Golden Bear: Plus accurate and complete histories of America’s dark underbelly and European colonialism.
Matt Smith
Just wanted to thank everyone helping educate us all. I try to speak up in solidarity like this… even when I don’t have anything brilliant to say!
I get the question @mali muso raised, whether different ways of broadcasting our intentions are inclusive or performative. I don’t think there’s always a clear, simple answer. I do my best and trust that’s good enough. And if/when it isn’t, I try to learn for next time.
Alison Rose
@Sister Golden Bear: Exactly!
Sister Golden Bear
@Dan B:
Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld, who was both gay himself, and pioneering researcher and advocate for LGBTQ+ people, who also pioneered some of the first medical treatments for trans people.
Sadly in addition to burning the library of the Institute for Sexual Research in Berlin and looting it, the Nazis also killed a trans woman who worked there. (Hirschfeld was fortunately out of the country when it happened.)
The tower-like bonfire engulfed more than 20,000 books — it’s the most famous photo of Nazi book burning — and destroyed an immense amount of research and personal accounts of LGBTQ+ people.
Dan B
@Percysowner: Thank you so much. I was born and raised in Ohio and kicked out of college in Ohio. (PTSD much, you ask?) Seemingly tiny bits of allyship open hearts. Open hearts open minds.
C Stars
@Sister Golden Bear: That’s so cool that you did drag. I remember when I lived in SF seeing a show at Slims that I think would be categorized as genderfuck–it was beautiful and angry and really just awe-inspiring. The few drag shows I’ve seen I’ve really enjoyed, and here in the East Bay I have heard of a couple of popular drag kings who perform regularly who I’ve been wanting to catch forever.
I think seeing drag performers is really expansive for kids, whether they are straight or queer, and I actually really like the idea of drag queen story hour–especially for cis kids. But there was something about it that always felt a little wrong for my trans kid. I have spoken to other parents of trans-femme kids who felt the same way. It also always bothered me that people would tell me to take my kid to drag queen story hour. As you point out, being trans is not the same thing as being a drag performer, not by a long shot. My kiddo is femme for sure, but they are by nature pretty modest and not into makeup or ruffly dresses or anything. I just worried that in their very early years, from the age of two or so until they finally came out at five, that if I took them to a drag show it would be like their parent saying, “OK, so you want to be femme? Well here’s your option in our society” and I very much didn’t want them to think/feel that. Does that make sense?
Suzanne
As a mom of a trans kid….. please do not ask me about his junk. It’s not your business. It’s not even my business. Whether or not he has any gender confirmation surgery or plastic surgery Is not a thing you need to know about and asking his parent is icky. I have very limited insight into his sex life — same as parents of cis kids — and that dynamic is not different because he’s trans.
Lapassionara
@Sister Golden Bear: many thanks for posting this information.
MoCaAce
Thank you for this. It has been very informative.
C Stars
@Suzanne: Yes to this, and asking about any kind of medical treatment, or giving advice about various treatments based on what you’ve read in the newspaper. It’s just not your business, even if they’re your grandkid. Same with dating and sexual orientation/attraction. If they want you to know, they’ll tell you. Don’t ask. I frankly don’t know who my kiddo is attracted to and when I bring it up jokingly I get a big ole eye roll.
C Stars
@Dan B: Ugh, I’m sorry about Ohio. Glad you moved on to better things.
Sister Golden Bear
@C Stars: Totally makes sense.
I like make-up and playing dress-up — although I’ve been more of Chapstick lesbian since pandemic started — so I’ve migrated to burlesque for awhile. Burlesque is also really fun and “Neo-burlesque” often has a bit of the same subversive attitude that drag has. It’s also not just sequins, fancy gowns and boas. It’s also primarily an art form by women for other women (although there’s also some men burlesques) and many of the performers are queer.
BTW, you’re probably thinking of The Rebel Kings who have a show at The White Horse in Oakland every first and third Wednesday. Their next show is Dec. 7.
Sister Golden Bear
@Suzanne: When I’ve encountered this I’ve told people that I’m happy to discuss my genitals/cosmetic surgeries after they talk about theirs. It usually makes the point.
Alison Rose
@Suzanne: It honestly boggles my mind that people think it’s okay to ask things like that. Like what the entire fuck.
C Stars
@Sister Golden Bear: That’s it! Thanks for the link.
Burlesque sounds like so much fun.
Sister Golden Bear
@C Stars: In case you’re interested, there’s a number shows in the Bay Area. Hubba Hubba has a Monday show upstairs at the DNA Lounge and a monthly “big show” downstairs.
There’s a relatively new show at the Ivy in Albany. Can find out more details if desired.
Mel
@Sister Golden Bear: This sounds like a good idea. I would be happy to help with a separate post / thread on chronic illness / disability.
Thank you (and everyone!) who is asking and answering questions in this thread.
I’m learning a lot, and realizing how much more I can do.
I’m thankful for every person who stands with a friend, neighbor, colleague, or stranger. We all need each other.
Mel
@Eolirin: We should chat sometime, if you would feel comfortable with that. I’m 20 years in to three autoimmune illnesses and CFS, so I hear you loud and clear.
Mousebumples
Late to the post, but thank you for doing this. My college had drag shows on campus every year, which was lots of fun for me and my friends to attend – though those were years ago.
If anyone is still monitoring the thread, one question I’ve had has been related to an ex of mine who has since transitioned. I’m not sure if she has legally changed her name, but she has shared her (new?) pronouns, so I try to use them, along with her preferred name.
However, we dated 20+ years ago, and I’ve mentally debated how to reference our past when speaking with others. (eg., when I saw her for the first time in years this summer, my parents asked how “he” was after the fact) I don’t know when/if my parents will see her in the future, but is sharing her transition inappropriate? I don’t want to dead name her either, but is there an appropriate way to connect the high school aged self to the current identity?
Also, is there a standard on how to refer to people when recalling times before they transitioned? Eg I dated Jane in high school vs. I dated John in John school.
Again, thank you for helping me hopefully become a better ally. Threads like this are why I love this community. ❤️
tandem
I hope someone responds to your question! My adult child is a trans woman, and this issue trips me up all the time when I try to talk about the pre-transition time. It’s probably the thing that makes talking with friends and family the most stilted.
Soprano2
@Sister Golden Bear: That sounds like something today’s Republicans would do!
I know this thread is dead, but thanks for it, I’ve learned a lot. We have an employee at the pub who is now using they/them pronouns, and is changing their name to Rogue. When they told me that, I said “Welcome to the world of a married woman changing her name!”. LOL I asked them if they were OK, and they seemed a little puzzled by the question. I said I know what they’re doing isn’t the easiest thing to do especially in our part of the world, and they just shrugged and said they are fine. I’m not sure how they “identify”, but I guess it’s none of my business unless they tell me. I think this is the thing that drives some people crazy; we think it’s normal to automatically be able to tell if someone is straight or gay, so all the “shades of gray” feel strange to us because of that. Thus the infamous SNL skit “It’s Pat!”, which highlighted all the ways people feel uncomfortable with ambiguity. I always thought it was interesting that Pat was never uncomfortable, it was the other people who always were. I don’t know how transgender people see that, probably differently depending on who they are. I’ve never liked the idea that everyone in a particular group sees something the same, because we’re all individuals with different experiences who see things in different ways because of that.
Soprano2
@Suzanne: It’s shocking to me sometimes the things people have the nerve to ask about. Never in a million years would I think it was appropriate to ask a parent a question like that!
Sister Golden Bear
@Mousebumples: Dealing with someone’s pre-transition name/gender is admittedly a tricky issue, especially when it involves a personal relationship.
In general, most trans people would like to have their current name/gender used retroactively, e.g. while Elliot Page didn’t request it (as far as I know) the studios changed to his current names in all of his film credits.
In your particular case, sharing her transition is entirely appropriate, and if needed you can talk about “Y who is now X.”
BTW, it’s not her “preferred name” it’s her current name. It’s equivalent to cis people who don’t use their legal names in every day life, e.g. Mike instead of Michael, Bob instead of Robert, etc.
@tandem: I’d talk to your daughter about her preferences. But I’d suggest something along the lines of what I recommended to Mousebumples. If your friends know she’s transitioned, hopefully that shouldn’t be too confusing.
Admittedly, there are times when someone’s pre-transition gender can’t be avoid, e.g. I know some trans women who attended all boys high schools, etc. But again the “Y neé X” and “Y who we thought was a boy at the time” approach works.
Sister Golden Bear
@Soprano2: FWIW worth Rogue may not have seen the change as being that big a deal — yay progress! — or they may not have felt like talking about it at the time. Having to rehash your life story on a regular basis gets really tiring.
Many cis and/or het people are definitely less than comfortable with ambiguity, even among lesbians and gays, as well as people who are otherwise socially liberal. The lesbian/gay communities have an unfortunate amount of biphobia, and while there’s a number of reasons for the, I think ambiguity is a major reason.*
For a number of years pre-transition, I lived as what would not be considered as “non-binary,” i.e. I worked as a man, but outside of work lived as least part of the time as a woman. Cis people (whether straight or gay) definitely had much harder time wrapping their heads around that. They had an easier time with people transitioning because it maintained the gender binary framework — i.e. someone was born on the “wrong” team and switches sides, but there were still only two teams.
*Other reasons are that:
J R in WV
@Starfish:
I have a bunch of sturdy bags I use for our groceries/wine, etc when shopping. The last bunch I bought, at Kroger’s, were brightly colored rainbow bags, which after I got the home I noticed they also said “Pride” at the center of the swirl of colors.
Since then I’ve met quite a few nice people who smile and nod at me, old crusty hairy bald dude shopping in town one day a week. Imagine that…
Thanks for the thread, and all the information !!
J R in WV
@Dan B:
My lovely gay cousin was thrown out of Xavier U in Cincinnati after she was caught making out with a girl-friend. They packed her stuff up instantly and put her on the road back to Columbus, no process, just kicked her out instantly… back around the late 1960s. She never went back to any college, got a factory job building seats for Honda.
Was horrific, PTSD indeed. She passed away some years ago, I still miss her, we were very close, always.
C Stars
@Sister Golden Bear: Thanks for the info. I can research the Ivy room event; it’s pretty close to us. We have a week coming up when the kids are going to be at grandparents, so grown-up date nights are a possibility!
ETA also thank you to you and Tamara for hosting this thread and replying so thoughtfully, and to everyone who participated and asked questions.
Sister Golden Bear
@J R in WV: Nice to hear!
IKEA also had rainbow bags this Pride season.
Sister Golden Bear
@C Stars: The next show for “Hot & Juice Burlesque” is next Thursday, Dec. 8. I don’t see it listed for January, but that may be because the producer, Juicy D. Light, is restarting another show at a different venue.
Hubba Hubba is at 9-10:30 pm on Mondays, so it’s not too late for a weeknight.
UncleEbeneezer
Shoot, as usual I’m very late to the threads I’m most interested in. Great stuff all around. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts/guidance.
Just want to share two great blog posts that really helped me wrap my head around Gender not being a binary thing. Both are from about 10 years ago so there may be some stuff and terminology that are out-dated. They are also from the Skeptic world, where around that time a huge schism formed when it became very clear that many of the leaders (especially men!) were extremely reluctant to evolve on issues of Gender, deeply clueless and out of touch with the scientific consensus of the time and just low-key Transphobic in general. It’s one of the reasons I pretty much abandoned online atheist spaces.
In addition to all the great tips/suggestions made above, I think just reading and listening to marginalized communities (bloggers, authors, podcasters, YT channelers etc.) is a great way we can educate ourselves in an enjoyable way without burdening people we know. Of course, make sure you $upport them too for their work, and encourage others to do so as well.
Bilaterally Gynandromorphic Chickens, and Why I’m Not “Scientifically” Male by Natalie Reed
Trans Stuff Roundup by Zinnia Jones (who also has some great videos on Youtube)
Also, for those who like podcasts I also highly recommend Marsha’s Plate which is a Black, Trans Podcast that is very fun and you can learn a lot from (about Racism too), simply by listening along to their excellent conversations. If you join their Patreon they also share their $ with some really good network of LGBTQIA groups and orgs doing a lot of the groundwork to make lives better for people in their communities. Their discussions are a bit more 102 (or is it 201?) level, but you will still learn a lot and they even have “Trans 101” segments that cover some of the basics and will help you with great responses for the next time your Transphobic friends/family/peers say some bullshit or just need some quick correction if they are good/well-meaning but trying.
UncleEbeneezer
@C Stars: I’m a White, Cis/Het man but I like wearing political tee shirts to try and use my privilege to help normalize men being Feminist, Anti-Racist etc. I have a “Transgender Rights Are Human Rights” and a “Protect Trans Children” shirt that I wear all the time. I usually expect dirty looks from bigots and do get them, but I also regularly get “I love your shirt” and a smile responses from gender-non-conforming people and I always love that. It’s not much and it doesn’t make me some sort of hero, but I do like knowing I gave somebody who probably deals with a ton of bullshit for swimming against society’s rigid stream, a moment of feeling seen/valued (or whatever they feel that made them smile).
sab
This thread has been so helpful. Fifteen years ago I didn’t even know what trans was. I had gay friends, but “trans” in the slogans meant nothing to me. We use to scratch our heads: Huh?
But it turns out I already had a trans niece working her way along. She was probably about twelve at the time. And my grand-daughter had a sibling a few years younger, also working his way along.
I love these kids, and I do not want to be asking intrusive questions. That isn’t done in my family. So thanks so much for information.
Mousebumples
@Sister Golden Bear: Thanks for the great response! And the name vs preferred name makes sense – I was more thinking that my legal name is Elizabeth, but I prefer to go by Lizzy. But if someone calls me Liz, Beth, Betsy, etc., I don’t usually get that worked up about it. But I totally get that names could be way more sensitive in this situation. Thanks again for being such a great fount of information.