Just want to give everyone a heads up – our site hosts are doing some infrastructure upgrades at the moment, so it’s likely that Balloon Juice will be running slowly as they work through issues related to that.
Nothing to be concerned about, just something to be aware of.
Open thread.
Update:
japa21
Among the all time greatest understatements.
sab
Has anyone read Primce Harry’s book? God I hate the Murdochs.
p.a.
Just borrowed the techs from FAA!
Baud
@japa21:
::insert Airplane! clip here::
Leto
I can’t wait for when we miss that left turn at Albuquerque…
Dangerman
Kevin Bacon, Animal House …
WaterGirl
What was I thinking? I have updated the post.
frosty
@Leto: I had to Google that phrase and ended up on a site about the comment, then maps of the intersection from 1938 to now. Funny how one tricky turn ended up in a Bugs Bunny cartoon and is now a catchphrase (albeit one I haven’t used).
I have friends in Albuquerque, I’ll have to see if they know about it.
mrmoshpotato
@sab:
Huh? What’s the relation between these two sentences?
WaterGirl
@mrmoshpotato: Besides the Murdoch’s making life a living hell for Harry and Meghan? :-)
Amir Khalid
@sab:
I haven’t either, but given the media coverage it’s clear that Harry and the Royal Family are now openly at war. Which I consider a tragedy for everyone.
Omnes Omnibus
This is fine.
Old School
@mrmoshpotato: Haven’t read the book, but haven’t Murdoch’s papers been accused of hacking into Diana’s phone?
lowtechcyclist
@frosty:
A line a friend of mine in high school used:
“There’s a train leaving for Albuquerque in five minutes. Be under it.”
The Other Steve
Howdy ho, neighbors!
mrmoshpotato
@WaterGirl:
I see. I haven’t been paying attention to that because we won the war. 😁
sab
@WaterGirl: They made life hell for every girl he ever dated, and it didn’t stop when the inevitable breakup came. The paparazzi (paid handsomely for every good photograph) continued to hound those girls.
Meghan had to quit her tv show after happy seven years because the paparazzi made filming and security so difficult for the show. And this was before the engagement.
Geminid
@Amir Khalid: There’s a bit of a civil war over the royal family happening on Twitter. I follow some people who are standard Democrats and agree on just about everything politically. But when it comes to this matter, there is a sharp division between the pro-Harry and pro-William factions. Spme of them have strong feelings about this. It’s kind of like a modern day War of the Roses..
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
Anyone surprised the “The Firm” is infested by racists needs to have their IQ checked. Unaccountable inherited privilege is a bedrock principle of both racism and monarchy, so they go together like hand in glove. It’s mostly a testament to Diana as a person and a mother that Harry seems to have escaped.
oldgold
@WaterGirl:
Besides the Murdoch’s making life a living hell
for Harry and Meghanfor 330 million Americans? :-)@WaterGirl:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Geminid: twitter Nixon is low-key obsessed with the royal family (Justin Sherin lives at least part-time in London). I don’t know if that’s in character or not, but I find it entertaining.
RandomMonster
Sometimes, when the crew is up against it, and the breaks are beating the boys, tell ‘em to get out there and give it all they’ve got. And win just one for the Zipper.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for that. I had never seen that before
I have added that to the media library for use on special occasions.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Old School: among others, politicians and private citizens, as I recall. Rebekah Brooks, the tabloid editor who was at the hear of it, got promoted within the Murdoch web just the other day
oatler
Chuck Todd will express his outrage on Twitter for sure
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/12/florida-police-man-arrest-voter-fraud-body-camera
WaterGirl
@oldgold: That, too!
Leto
@frosty: It’s been a part of my lexicon for the past 47 years. Unfortunately it’s also one that’s not as used anymore, as it becomes even more obscure. I also have friends who live there, part of the AF and National Labs. It’s def a unique place!
Will
Well at least we had a week where that YouGov poll had Biden above water. I imagine the non stop 24/7 coverage about finding top secret documents in the garage is going to go on forever.
sab
I remember when New Corp alumn Piers Morgan replaced Larry King and almost immediately used his new position to beat up on medical staff at NYC hospitals after Hurricane Sandy, as if the power failure was the fault of the Chief of Staff instead of the NYC building codes. Completely blindsided the doctor, who thought his staff would be praised for successfully evacuating patients in the dark while manually operating ventilators.
Those Murdoch people are vile.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: You’d really never seen it before? You are not aware of all internet traditions.
lowtechcyclist
@oatler:
Well of course, if someone may have voted illegally, how could the police feel that their lives were safe if they didn’t show up with guns drawn?
Sarcasm aside, I wonder how much of an effect this had on voting in Florida last year. This was clearly all about voter intimidation, and I bet it worked with more than a few people.
Brachiator
@sab:
Not just the Murdochs. British media is often vile and biased in ways that make American journalism look genteel.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I am not!
Bex
@sab: Yes the British gutter press. It makes “experts” out of people who don’t know the victims and never will. I’m waiting for my copy of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Thanks to Katie Porter.
schrodingers_cat
The British Crown has a body count that would put Nazis to shame. That Empire over which the sun never set didn’t come about by being genteel. They have been terrible for centuries. Why is everyone acting so surprised at the revelation of bigotry, racism and entitlement from the members of the royal family.
JML
As someone who works in higher ed in Minnesota, I’ve been tracking this story: Hamline Adjunct Terminated for Showing art of Islamic Prophet
Any thoughts from the jackals?
It seems like we’re getting into some very dicey territory if respecting someone’s religion means you have to follow their precepts…
Betty Cracker
@lowtechcyclist: The Tampa Bay Times says nearly 2/3rds of registered Republicans turned out in 2022 compared to just 1/2 of registered Dems. The intimidation factor alone doesn’t account for that huge disparity, but it certainly didn’t help. I’m sure DeSantis held the press conference announcing the arrests in the bluest county in the state, Broward, to maximize the effect.
mali muso
@sab:
Am a little over halfway through the audiobook (which he narrates). The insidious nature of the Murdoch media way of doing things is the primary antagonist, and the incestuous relationship between the RF and the media seems like total poison.
lowtechcyclist
@Betty Cracker: Did they say how that compared with 2020?
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
The racism was a late, but easy add on. Social class and rank existed and characterized the so called nobility long before the idea of race was created.
And in America, the wealthy elite was nervous to the point of hysteria to make sure that non-white people, and for a time the Iris and Jews, were excluded from the ranks of the elites. Instead of inherited privilege, there was mainly money, which bought the illusion of inherited privilege.
This is one of the reasons it is important to destroy Harry, and to make sure that he and William are alienated from each other. Diana always seemed to be at odds with the courtiers and unofficial defenders of the Firm.
rikyrah
@sab:
He called them out by name.
Bravo, Harry.
rikyrah
I still miss Underground. Not Sci-Fi, but, still cancelled for the same reasons.
I still believe those two seasons of Underground should be included in any school curriculum about slavery from Grade 7 on up.
Jamestown (@jamestown_502) tweeted at 2:44 PM on Tue, Jan 10, 2023: Ratings wasn’t the issue, ‘Lovecraft Country’ and ‘Watchmen’ didn’t get season two due to unexpected impact and imagery. Black sci-fi hits different. White America was enthralled and the subject matter was too powerful. (https://twitter.com/jamestown_502/status/1612913202404421634?t=hng2ZwpEYfGJXhRHnsvTpQ&s=03)
schrodingers_cat
Racism was foundational in the justification of the Empire. So at least a couple of hundred years old if not more in Olde England.
Ken
@Brachiator: It must be remembered that Diana, as a Spencer, was descended from James II and VII (albeit illegitimately) and thus according to the Jacobites had a better claim on the throne than Charles.
Of course their sons descend from both lines, so that dispute can, perhaps, finally be put to rest. Although if you argue that only the legitimate heirs of James should be considered, we’re back to Franz, Duke of Bavaria remaining the proper heir to the throne. (Apparently this means Prince Alois of Liechtenstein, or his heirs, will someday have a claim.)
rikyrah
Portia![]()
McGonagal portiamcgonagal1619 on Insta (@PortiaMcGonagal) tweeted at 7:44 AM on Thu, Jan 12, 2023:
I’ve repeatedly said they would never stop at Roe and will go after everything back to Griswold. And if some of you who’ve conceived or plan to via IVF think that’s safe? Mkay. Gifted link so all can read.
https://t.co/g9TaSyUBlT
(https://twitter.com/PortiaMcGonagal/status/1613532299865513985?t=fp2aUODzwJZf55mx9w9jvg&s=03)
rikyrah
Simply TC![]()
![]()
![]()
(@BienSur_JeTaime) tweeted at 4:08 AM on Wed, Jan 11, 2023:![]()
I’ve been in Europe for almost a week eating hella red meat, bread, and wine and I’m watching my waist shrink. I thought folks were lying about this
(https://twitter.com/BienSur_JeTaime/status/1613115736834146309?t=7eP7Q1OZ3fM02Hkro3IH_A&s=03)
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: I have a similar experience when I visit India.
Brachiator
@JML:
I was recently talking to my sister about this. The instructor was terminated. Life goes on. And I note that some Muslim groups have also protested the firing and ask that the instructor be reinstated.
I used to be almost a free speech absolutist. But I also recognize that different traditions have different values, and the differences cannot always be reconciled.
For some Muslims, visual depiction of the Prophet is absolutely forbidden. What is the point of displaying the paintings even though they are part of history? You could discuss them without displaying them. It would be a compromise which keeps the peace.
BTW, I would fight it if someone suggested that the paintings be destroyed. Is this a possible contradiction in my thoughts on the issue? Yes. Life is messy.
ETA. I am a Star Trek fan. I recognize that sometimes the Prime Directive must be followed, and sometimes violated. But you have to recognize the values that other societies, and other members of your own society, may hold that differ from your own.
Roger Moore
@JML:
I think this shows one of the flaws of academia: conflict aversion. They will do anything they can to try to avoid controversy and will cave with minimal prodding if only one side of an issue pushes them. They need strong push back from people who disagree. I don’t think this will help the professor at the center of the controversy- unfortunately contemporary academia treats adjunct professors as disposable- but we want to scare them enough they won’t try the same thing again.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ken: One of my favorite scenes in The House of Cards series (the real one) is when Francis Urquhart draws himself into a pose of great aristocratic disdain and tells the character based the current King Charles that the Urquharts came down with James I when the current royal family were farmers in some obscure corner of Germany
Montanareddog
@sab: it will be a cold day in hell when I defend that odious skidmark, Piers Morgan, but he was not a Murdoch alumnus. He was editor of the Daily Mirror, which is supposed to be the left of centre, Labour Party supporting tabloid. But it is still a tabloid. Now he just appears to be your basic reactionary and racist.
Another vile scumsucker, Jeremy Clarkson, has performed one public redemptive act in his disgusting life. He belted Morgan at an awards dinner after the Mirror printed pictures of Clarkson kissing a lady who was not his wife.
Amir Khalid
@JML:
My impression from the story is that the adjunct professor did everything she could have done, and sacking her was unjust. I don’t think even a mild reprimand would have been justified.
What would I, being Muslim myself, have done in the student’s place? I would have pointed out to the adjunct professor my qualms about viewing an image of the Prophet, of course. Then I would remain at the lecture. If it really bothered me, I guess I’d look away from the image. Unless the instructor had actually disparaged my beliefs/concerns, I wouldn’t take it to the administration.
Roger Moore
@schrodingers_cat:
Racism, or at least racism in something like the form we know it today, was constructed to justify colonialism.
frosty
@WaterGirl: You’re on the internet regularly and you never saw “This is fine” before? How on earth could you have missed it? It was all over the place in the early TFG years.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
The idea of an aristocracy or inherited nobility is fair older than the Empire, and also exists in other countries. Japan has an emperor and a shrinking aristocracy. For a time, even samurai families were seen as too low for aristocrats to marry. And non Japanese? Never.
schrodingers_cat
@Roger Moore: There are clubs in Mumbai which the British frequented which Indians could not join as members during the Raj
Wilingdon Club, Otters Club, Turf Club, Cricket Club of India to name but a few.
zhena gogolia
@sab: The New York Times seems to have it in for them as well. I don’t know what their angle is, they seem to be Team Camilla for some reason.
Betty Cracker
@Amir Khalid: I agree. From the account I read about the incident, the instructor did everything right; she provided warning up front that the image would be used and gave students plenty of opportunity to opt out of viewing it.
Roger Moore makes a good point at #49 about excessive conflict avoidance in that environment. The administration higher-ups threw the instructor under the bus to avoid a controversy. That was cowardly.
@lowtechcyclist: I don’t think they compared it to previous years in the article I read.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: Sure the caste system in India is another institution like that. I am not disputing that. Just saying that the British royals and their racism is not a new phenomena.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: NYT is always Team Bigot.
Jeffro
@rikyrah: we spent eight days in Italy back in 2018, eating like kings and queens the whole while (2 gelatos each, per day!)
We all came back several pounds lighter than when we left. It hadn’t happened before and hasn’t happened since.
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
To show that the prohibition on depictions of Mohammad is not something that is central to Islam per se but is an interpretation of one (admittedly very influential) school of Islamic thought. I think you can make a very solid argument it’s important to actually see the paintings rather than just hearing about them to get the full impact.
FWIW, the instructor gave plenty of warning about the paintings and permission for anyone who would be offended by seeing them to not look. The objection is purely to the idea that anyone be allowed to display images of the Prophet. It’s particularly nasty in this case because the instructor was making a very solid case that this is an issue of interpretation even within Islam, so the student is trying to use institutional power to enforce their version of Islam over anyone else.
Montanareddog
@schrodingers_cat: I think you will find there is a club in Augusta, GA where a similar mentality still holds sway (if unofficially). That was hardly unique to the British colonialists.
In fact, my observation is so banal, I wonder if I am misunderstanding your remark.
Rob
WaterGirl, the update photo has put me at ease.
Doug R
@frosty: Old maps here:
https://www.theroadwanderer.net/66NMex/route66NM.htm
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Not new. But also not an original sin that has always been part of the idea of the British royal family.
Also, I think that some royal is somewhere descended from Alexander Pushkin, and so has African ancestry. And you will problem never see a public DNA analysis of any royal, because all kinds of surprises might turn up.
The caste system has all kinds of complications, but is it also race or ethnicity based in any way? Also, are there still princes rattling around with any celebrity?
Roger Moore
@Montanareddog:
I think we may be talking past each other. I’m not disagreeing that racism was foundational to colonialism, rather commenting that it was not a pre-existing thing. Rather racism and colonialism developed hand in hand, with racism being sculpted to justify colonialism. In the same way, the American strain of racism was constructed to match the situation here in the USA. The difference between British and American racism is kind of like the difference between British and American English. They come from a common root, but they were separated at some point and had a chance to develop in their own way, though they’ve obviously cross-fertilized each other in the years since the split.
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
Was the class about the history and justification of interpretations of Islam?
I don’t think there is a strong argument for this at all. But again, the larger issue is that you have two equally valid views of society. I don’t see that freedom of speech automatically overrules other values.
The advance warning does not necessarily overcome objections to depicting the Prophet.
The Other Steve
George Santos should say he is resigning, but not actually resign. He’d totally own the libs!
Normal person: Why won’t the GOP do something about Santos?
MAGA Hat: What do you want? He already resigned.
Normal Person: No he didn’t! He tweeted he resigned but he didn’t!
MAGA Hat: He resigned!
Normal Person: No, he didn’t. It’s been covered on every reputable news outlet in the western hemisphere!
MAGA Hat: Haha! You moronic sheep, believing every lie the liberal media tells you! Hahahahaha!
Normal Person: Look. There he is. Live. Frickin’ live. On CSPAN. Live.
MAGA Hat: Go on, drink that liberal Kool-aid. Hahahahahaha!
zhena gogolia
@Brachiator: Then the person should go to a religious institution instead of a secular liberal-arts college.
JustRuss
@JML: Jeez, she warned the students multiple times that she’d be using images of Mohammed and invited them to share their concerns, none did. And now she’s getting fired for it? Shameful.
The Other Steve
@JML:
I think the President of Hamline University is going to end up resigning. This is blowing up into something they were not prepared for, and her response has been really bad. The statement I saw today was pretty badly written and argued.
I live in Minnesota.
Jeffro
FYI, the WaPo has an article up about how Matt Yglesias is the “darling” of DC, and an op-ed from Gary Abernathy up promoting Jim Jordan as “the adult in the room” (on Capitol Hill).
I’m feeling exceptionally nauseous, is what I’m trying to say here people.
trollhattan
@Jeffro: One is instantly forced to categorize this Gary Abernathy person as an idiot, moron, or idiot-moron. Why does he have a public platform?
Brachiator
@zhena gogolia:
Or the instructor could have avoided a pointless controversy and not shown the images.
trollhattan
@The Other Steve: Loved learning yesterday that he was a star player on his college volleyball team, of which he was not a member.
In gentler times I might say George Santos (whatever his name actually is) needs help, but I’m feeling uncharitable and so I suggest he gets help exiting a 10th floor window, Russia-style. He’s taking up oxygen needed by the rest of us.
Betty Cracker
@trollhattan: Abernathy is a human Midwestern diner report; WaPo imported him from Ohio after the 2016 election to bolster the paper’s “Heartland” cred.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: IIRC Abernathy was with a smaller local paper in Ohio, and Post called him up to the big leagues to share with us the voice of trumpy diners.
I was a little surprised just now to hear Charlie Sykes– ex-Republican, once a close friend and media ally of both Reince Priebus and Paul Ryan– and libertarian contrarian Kara Swisher (her podcast) both predict that the forthcoming Clooney documentary on Ohio State is gonna be trouble for Gym Jordan. Seems like that doc has been forthcoming forever. Last I checked IMDB it’s still titled “Untitled Ohio State Documentary”, or something like it
JML
@Brachiator: I believe the class was an art history class that was either about artistic depictions of the divine/religious themed art, or had a significant module related to that topic. It wasn’t just about Islamic art, but that was included as part of the whole.
I found the student’s reaction to be troubling, where they stated they couldn’t feel accepted at the school because of this, essentially saying that the entire university had to conform to her religious beliefs in order for it to be a safe place for her, and that no one should have the option to view something she found offensive. An argument that was backed up by the representative from the local chapter of CAIR, who essentially said that no subject controversial to Islam could be taught at the university if it recruits Islamic students.
rikyrah
UH HUH
UH HUH
Andrew Wortman (@AmoneyResists) tweeted at 4:19 PM on Wed, Jan 11, 2023:
They campaigned on inflation, border security, and gas prices. And the first bill they pass is…The “Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act”—requiring health care providers to try to preserve the life of an infant that is born alive during or after an attempted abortion.
(https://twitter.com/AmoneyResists/status/1613299476415774722?t=7cvSTgS6e-xOnvg55GNMPw&s=03)
Omnes Omnibus
@Amir Khalid: I agree that the professor did everything right in this context. I don’t know enough about the course and the painting in question to say whether that painting was necessary for the course, but the professor should be able to decide that.
rikyrah
Kevin Frey (@KevinFreyTV) tweeted at 8:59 AM on Thu, Jan 12, 2023:
“The spectacle that is George Santos speaks for itself. He’s a complete and total fraud … it is now the responsibility of House Republicans to do something about it,” Minority Leader @RepJeffries says
(https://twitter.com/KevinFreyTV/status/1613551330244820993?t=pdBx1yUtuZ1EHf5129a4aw&s=03)
PJ
@Brachiator: Basically, your argument is that if someone is offended by someone else’s speech, the offensive speech should be banned.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: According to the article I read, the art history class was doing visual analysis, which is pretty standard stuff. Seems like it would be difficult to conduct a visual analysis without an image.
rikyrah
Yes, explain this to me like I’m five years old.
Chris D. Jackson (@ChrisDJackson) tweeted at 9:35 AM on Thu, Jan 12, 2023: In the past, I’ve never heard of a Transportation Secretary be blamed for such issues the way they are blaming Pete relentlessly. I’d like to know how he is different from Andy Card, Elaine Chao, Liddy Dole or any other previous secretary. Why is he to individually to blame? (https://twitter.com/ChrisDJackson/status/1613560389102456835?t=Qx3jX4g7UeTQ9rh4p1G-pg&s=03)
schrodingers_cat
@Montanareddog:
Its about how racism and bigotry was foundational to the Empire and not an afterthought. That the British royals are racist is not “news”
Raven
So we love to bitch about injuries in football here. Read this about the floors in the multi-billion dollar SoFi Stadium Monday.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/01/10/sofi-stadium-gets-an-f-for-its-performance-in-the-rain/
Jeffro
It’s an excellent question. He does know how to put an op-ed together…it’s just always in the service of the Republican Party (meaning, excusing trump for years; trying to get the party to move on from trump post-J6; lying, lying, and lying some more about Democrats)
He’s also their “voice of the heartland” as he’s in (I think semi-rural) Ohio
ETA or what Betty already said, shorter and better, at #76 =)
geg6
@Brachiator:
Tough shit. This America, not Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. I do not see how one student’s unreasonable demand which got an instructor fired and deprived all the other students in the class of valuable perspective overrides academic freedom and freedom of speech. The student was given the option not to have to view it. That should be that.
Montanareddog
@Roger Moore:
I did not think we were talking to each other at all, tbh 😆. But you raise some good points.
My interpretation is that colonialism and racism are not tied at their roots. Colonialism and racism based on skin color became symbiotic once white Europeans started colonizing land with non-white inhabitants; or stealing non-white people to work as slaves in their settler colonies. But anti-Semitism in medieval Europe (where there were Jews but very few Africans or Asians) was a real, tragic phenomenon long before the colonial expansion of the 18th and 19th centuries.
So. I say that racism is a long-existing thing, that easily evolves to justify the abuses of a dominant cultural power.
My beef is S-C’s monomania about British racism; as if American, French, Belgian, Dutch, Afrikaner, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Brazilian, Argentinian, Japanese, Chinese, ad infinitum racism never existed.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: A liberal arts education can involve confronting uncomfortable situations. This was not a Charlie Hebdo situation where they published pictures simply because they could.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker: @Jim, Foolish Literalist: @Jeffro:
Thanks, all. I’d really like to stuff this Diner-Cletus safari genie back into its bespoke bottle–that will take the power of a hundred DougJ NYT Pitchbots having similar platforms, I fear.
However, given a lofty spot on a WaPo op-ed page, I’d subscribe, promise (call me, Bezos). The editorial meetings would be lit. “You’re going to both-sides David Duke with Maxine Waters?”
Manyakitty
@Jeffro: yeah, much more of that and I’ll cancel my subscription. They already doubled the price and I can get angry about this nonsense for free.
Brachiator
@PJ:
Sometimes. Yep. An instructor says, “I am going to use the N word as much as I want because it is irrelevant that it might be offensive speech. Academic freedom!”
See how far it gets you.
@Betty Cracker:
Difficult, but not impossible.
Also, I don’t think the instructor should have been fired. This time.
The Thin Black Duke
@rikyrah: They’re going after Pete hard because they’re afraid of him running for president in 2028.
Amir Khalid
@Brachiator:
The prof invited the class to raise an objection if they had one, and the Muslim student didn’t — until the offending image had been shown. Make of that what you will.
Also: a Muslim student would have likely been a minority of one in that classroom. I would be at least a little conflicted about imposing my religious objections on the non-Muslim rest of the class.
JML
@Omnes Omnibus: and there was certainly no intent to be disrespectful or offensive.
I think the university’s response was exceptionally poor. Instead of looking at this as an opportunity to have conversation about academic freedom, or dealing with uncomfortable situations, or balancing learning environments with cultural or religious sensitivity…they essentially took the student’s side in it’s entirety, labeled the professor’s presentation “Islamophobic”, and shut down dissenting opinions. terminating the relationship with the adjunct was unjust but unsurprising (administration at every university treats their adjuncts poorly); easy way out, every time. but the additional steps they took appear to have only divided the campus.
geg6
@Brachiator:
Actually, instructors may use that word, with appropriate caveats, explanation of reasoning and an option for students to opt out of the discussion. There are definitely times when it is perfectly appropriate. Does this mean you are against any assignments or discussion of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn? Or any type of rap music, where the word can be ubiquitous? Your argument is bullshit and so was the student’s.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: Your hypothetical example is so far removed from the actual situation as to be irrelevant.
Roger Moore
@PJ:
I don’t think that’s fair. He’s saying that before making a speech that you know is likely to offend someone, you should stop and think if it’s really necessary. Maybe you can rephrase it to avoid offense, or maybe the topic isn’t really necessary and you should just drop it completely. Those are both completely valid possibilities, and they are both preferable to being needlessly offensive.
But sometimes that really isn’t an option. Sometimes what you’re saying is important to say and the offense is essential to the point you’re trying to make. Sometimes people game the system and try to shut down debate on a point they want to avoid by acting offended at anything touching on that topic. Free debate requires we recognize those cases and be willing to go forward even at the cost of someone acting or being offended.
I think that’s the case here. The instructor had what is an important point about depictions of Mohammad, and the student was trying to shut it down using religious offense as a justification. That’s not OK. The instructor took reasonable steps to accommodate the student’s objections, but that wasn’t good enough because the student’s objections weren’t reasonable.
Omnes Omnibus
@JML: From what I have seen, the professor’s actions were the textbook example of how to bring cultural sensitivity to an academic subject.
zhena gogolia
@Brachiator: you do not understand academic freedom
opiejeanne
@JustRuss: The student who complained said that she was blind-sided by the image being shown. Did she miss class on the days it was discussed?
NotMax
@frosty
No stranger to the intertoobz I and also had never seen it before.
@Brachiator
Not so cut and dry.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
For real. Neither do the administrators at this school.
Leto
@geg6: say it again for the people who’s hearing-aid batteries are dead.
JML
@Roger Moore:
In this case, the student didn’t raise any objections until afterwards. (As with many students, i suppose they didn’t read the syllabus…)
Barbara
@Roger Moore: Hamline University screwed up, in my estimation by not considering the larger context of what they expected this professor to do. You can imagine this playing out in a 100 different ways — for instance, images of a dark-skinned Jesus upsetting white Evangelical Christians.
To take this in a different context, my daughter was in a summer high school pre-college program in which various 20th century diasporas were discussed, among them, the persecution of Armenians after WWI. The reaction of the Turkish students in her class to any discussion that addressed whether/if/how Armenians were singled out for disfavored treatment of any kind (let alone genocide) was intense and negative to the point of complete meltdown. When the teacher refused to drop the subject they left the classroom.
Do we just not discuss information because it upsets someone?
Barbara
@NotMax: Right, the university is not just imposing vicarious intolerance, but like a lot of intolerance, it is grounded in ignorance of actual historical practice and only the most superficial knowledge of the religion that they think they are defending.
JoyceH
Couple topics.
On Harry-Meghan and the British media. I can’t help but think that a lot of it is driven by Piers Morgan. Some time ago, I saw him on some talk show talking about when he’d met Meghan. This was his OWN account of it, and I saw what was up right away. He said he’d really liked her show and talked and texted with her a few times. When she was coming to the UK to promote her show, he suggested they meet at a pub, and they did. She had a drink and left after a bit, and met Harry that evening. And he’s never seen/talked with her since. He seemed to feel like she threw him over for Harry! Well, as I listened to his story, it seemed pretty clear to me that here’s this young actress, interacting with a member of the British media, believing she’s networking for her career, and she comes to the pub and realizes, “Wait, this old fool thinks this is a date!” And every time I hear him talking about her, I hear the viciousness of a man who considers himself ‘jilted’ by a girl he never really had a chance with.
New topic. Classified docs found at Biden locations. Am I utterly paranoid to wonder if these were planted? We know the Secret Service is riddled with Trumpistas, we know that the Archives doesn’t believe they got back everything Trump took – is it out of the bounds of reason to wonder if in those remaining documents, there might be a few that Trump squirreled away early in his tenure, that still dated from the previous administration, and that those documents were given to an agent on the Biden detail to plant and incriminate him?
Almost Retired
@JoyceH: Oh my. I hadn’t even occurred to me that they could have been planted.
My guess is that clawing back some mistakenly held classified documents is relatively routine after a President leaves office. They are requested or discovered or whatever and returned without incident.
Trump broke that norm by, evidently, deliberately retaining documents and refusing to return them. So now, it’s a “thing.” But I don’t know.
arrieve
@Brachiator: @NotMax:
I spent a few weeks in Iran in 2015. We were beyond shocked to see a painting of the Prophet in a museum in Tehran. When we asked our guide about it, that we thought that was forbidden, she shrugged and said, “That’s a Sunni thing.”
In the older paintings in Iran there are many depictions of people, but not in the more modern paintings. So the standards of what’s acceptable may change, whether Sunni or Shia.
Omnes Omnibus
@Almost Retired: I agree with your guess.
JoyceH
@Almost Retired:
Oh, I’m sure that it is relatively routine. It’s just them surfacing after the big Mar-A-Lago brou-haha that got me to wondering. On the up side, if my suspicion is true, I imagine that it would be easy to prove – if they were ever in Trump’s possession you just know the idiot left fingerprints.
Saw just now that a special counsel for the Biden docs has been appointed.
jonas
So Garland has officially appointed a special counsel to handle the Biden doc case. That was quick! My completely uninformed reading of this is that he knows he’s going to have to lower the hammer on Trump soon and wanted to get out ahead of all the inevitable banshee shrieking on the right if he hadn’t treated both cases similarly. Even though they’re totally not similar.
Brachiator
@geg6:
Great example. I love Huckleberry Finn. It was one of the first novels that I checked out of the library on my own.
I know some parents (not so much their kids) who absolutely cannot get past the use of the N word in the novel. Would I make it mandatory reading for some middle school English class? No, but I would make it optional. I think that people who object to Huckleberry Finn and to other works are wrong. But I also recognize a change in opinion that some people have about the novel. Actually, not so much a change. Black people in particular, and nonwhite people in general, often did not have any voice in what books would be taught in public school or even public colleges.
Somewhat related, The Taming of the Shrew and The Merchant of Venice are comedies, but you cannot always teach them as straight comedies because the world has changed.
I might object to some teachers who wanted to teach about rap music.
ian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Clooney is still making that documentary? I have been hearing about it for years. I guess better late than never…
As to the other topic in the thread: I find myself closer ideologically to Robespierre than Louis XIV. If the Brits want to keep their monarchy that is their business, but I never have understood the American fascination/obsession with the British Monarchy. Having a King (or Queen) seems like a tacit endorsement that social hierarchies are good for society, something that I think clashes with the notion of egalitarianism. If we believe all people are created equal, there cannot be a family at the top of everyone else.
Roger Moore
@Barbara:
I don’t think you can separate what happened here from the general attitude that adjunct professors are disposable, to be cast aside the moment they’re inconvenient. I doubt Hamline would do the same thing to a tenure track faculty member.
RaflW
@sab: The Colbert interview a couple nights ago was good. Stephen just is such a decent guy, and I thought the rapport felt pretty natural. Even the frost-nipping of the prince’s protrusion was handled with good natured humor (I don’t really get TV censorship. But they bleeped the first word in “cock cushion”).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@jonas: interesting, and I hope you’re right about a move on trump coming soon, though this may delay it, again? I can’t imagine it will take long to draft a report saying “the Biden team acted appropriately”
Someone on twitter suggested what Biden had were probably photocopies of not very sensitive stuff that somebody forgot to dispose of because it wasn’t very sensitive. Whether that was based on experience or pure speculation, I don’t know.
Anyway
@ian:
Americans luv celebrities. Add that to fascination with the Rich and Famous … fed by the PR-Industrial complex
Anyway
@Jeffro:
I read the article and felt stabby on learning that MattY makes close to a MILLION dollars a year on Substack!!!!!!! For his glib, contrarian, shallow remarks with very little substance…
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
I think Huckleberry Finn is a good example of people being genuinely offended vs people using offense as a pretext. My impression is that the objections to the use of the N-word in Huck Finn is mostly pretext, coming from White parents who don’t want their children exposed to Twain’s unfavorable portrayal of the antebellum South.
JoyceH
It occurs to me that appointing a special counsel sort of insulates the issue from becoming a three-ring circus in the House. And BTW, appointing Jim Jordan to helm this special committee investigating the investigators – does the GOP really believe that Jordan’s behavior in hearings HELPS them?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I was trying to remember last night the halcyon time when I had never heard of a boorish and crude real estate developer who was actually just a publicity-seeking trust-fund baby who later became a game show host. I’m guessing I was first exposed to him on Letterman, who had a regrettable fascination with trump, even to have him on to mock him.
Montanareddog
@JoyceH:
Definitely is not the screwiest conspiracy theory out there
At work, we were visited by a lady consultant for a few weeks. One day, at the coffee machine (when she was not present), a male colleague went off on an unhinged rant on how he could not stand her, she was a snooty bitch… and on and on and on. Just embarassing. Another male colleague piped up “you sound just like a guy who tried it on and got rebuffed”. That shut the fucker up. From what I have seen of Piers Morgan, you might have hit on something there.
JoyceH
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I distinctly remember the first time I ever encountered Trump. Was channel surfing, like we did back in the day, and came across a TV segment (might have been Lifestyles Of The Rich and Famous) about the soon to be open Taj Mahal. And Trump was racing from place to place pointing out all the fixtures and what-not, gushing about the QUALITY of everything. I sat there in stunned horror, asking myself, ‘can he genuinely not see how gaudy it all is?’
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
The objections to Huck Finn that I noted came from black parents.
Roger Moore
@JoyceH:
I wouldn’t be surprised if Piers Morgan’s personal hatred of the Sussexes was a result of being ignored by Meghan, but there’s no way that’s the whole, or even the main, story when it comes to the British media as a whole. There’s a ton of racism there, and anyone paying attention knew this was going to go badly from the beginning.
One of the things I find really instructive is the difference in the way Princess Kate is portrayed compared to Duchess Meghan. People have done side by side comparisons of the two of them doing the exact same thing in public. There’s a great one about them each rubbing their pregnant belly. Kate was “tenderly cradling her baby bump”, while the same outfit wanted to know why Meghan “can’t … keep her hands off her bump”. It was exactly the same behavior, but interpreted generously for Kate and negatively for Meghan.
Soprano2
@Brachiator: Oh man, I completely disagree with you about this after reading the article. Why should the professor not show the image to people, the vast majority of whom will not be offended by it? Should we also ban “Piss Christ” from ever being shown in an art class because some Christians are offended by it? The students were given every opportunity to talk to the professor about it, and to leave class and not view it if they didn’t want to; instead, they waited until she displayed it, and then got her fired for it, because they want to impose their religious belief about images of the Prophet on everyone. We don’t stand for conservative Christians imposing their beliefs on everyone, and we shouldn’t stand for conservative Muslims doing it either. Things like this are the reason people like Bill Maher say that the left won’t stand up to Islamic radicals.
Can’t wait to hear about this on Maher’s show, and the thing about is this time I’ll agree with him!! As Filopovic said in the article:
Geminid
@Anyway: One thing that makes me suspicious of some substack writers is that there is no transparency about who is paying their money. I understand there are reputable journalists using that platform. National security and diplomacy journalist Laura Rosen is one.
But when I look at the money some writers are reputed to make on substack, and see reports of their work product, and I wonder if Peter Thiel or a likeminded billionaire is paying them and they are writing to please their sponsors.
Soprano2
@Brachiator: But the whole point is that the controversy is not pointless. It’s an art class, looking at and talking about and examining art is the aim of the class, and art is meant to be looked at not just described. It almost sounds like the student did it deliberately in order to try to get the professor fired.
Soprano2
All you have to do is change “Islamic” to “Christian” to see how ridiculous this idea is.
trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
My dime-store observation is the Tories are reflexively pro-monarchy and anybody who disrupts or very importantly, threatens it become instant targets, with gloves not an option.
I’ve learned during this Harry-Meghan kerfuffle they also despise Nicola Sturgeon–which I take as a second layer of hate based on misogyny. (Thatcher evidently an honorary dude.) I OTOH would listen to Sturgeon read the Edenborough phone book.
Roger Moore
@Geminid:
I’m also suspicious because AFAIK we’re depending on Substack for information on who is earning how much. They have an incentive to make the numbers look as big as possible as a recruiting tool. We really have no idea if the numbers are accurate or if they’re exaggerated in any number of ways, e.g. giving an annualized value for an exceptional month.
Geminid
@JoyceH: I have not followed the story of Harry falling out with his family that closely, but I recall how when this first made a lot of news Piers Morgan was in the forefront of the Meghan detractors.
I mainly remember this from following Ragnorok Lobster (@eclecticbrotha) on Twitter. When British industrialist Alan, Lord Sugar, tweeted out a very pompous defense of Morgan, Mr. Lobster couldn’t resist:
For some reason that still cracks me up.
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
I don’t doubt this is correct. I just want to point out that they seem to have decided that Meghan Markle, by her very identity, was a threat to the monarchy. Admittedly, she does have several strikes against her, being an American divorcee, but I can’t help but think the Blackness is the big problem.
Ruckus
@Barbara:
Do we just not discuss information because it upsets someone?
That of course never actually works.
What’s the old saying, “Information is power.” And lack of information continues the quest for hate and racism. We see that in our country, we see that in history, we see it throughout humanity.
Brachiator
@Soprano2:
Very good question. I am not sure that what the majority finds acceptable is the only answer.
I have no idea what Maher means by this, and don’t much care. Didn’t we try to crush Islamic radicals in Afghanistan?
geg6
@Roger Moore:
You might be right about a part of it being she is American, but being a divorcee has not stopped Camilla from being accepted. Myself, I tend to ascribe it to racism mostly. From both the British media and the monarchy/aristocracy.
Soprano2
@Brachiator: Maher has on Muslims who make claims like “feminists never stand up to radical Muslims because they’re afraid of offending Muslim sensibilities”, which is bullshit, but when things like this happen (a university fired a professor for offending the sensibilities of one Muslim student even though that person was given plenty of opportunity to not view the offending painting), it adds fuel to the idea that liberals won’t stand up to Muslim radicals because we’re afraid of being called Islamophobic. Good Lord, they called that professor Islamophobic because she showed one painting! How is that reasonable? That would be like saying a professor hated all Christians because they showed Piss Christ to students. The university should be ashamed of how quickly they caved to one student’s conservative religious beliefs. If this had been done by a conservative Christian we wouldn’t stand for it at all.
JustRuss
@opiejeanne: According to the NYT, it was in the syllabus, and she warned the class a few minutes before showing the painting
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/08/us/hamline-university-islam-prophet-muhammad.html?smid=tw-share
trollhattan
@Soprano2: Agree, and IMHO it tacitly lends support to what’s occurring in Iran and Afghanistan. (One of the things that really pisses Iran’s leaders off is foreign news broadcast in Farsi, as though Iran held all the copyrights on a language. Is Persian cooking next?)
Ruckus
@JoyceH:
As he has no actual taste in anything other than someone gushing about him, gaudy is his go to. He’s a guy who has held the belief that his wealth was about 4 times what it actually is. And most of his actual wealth is in what he “owns” rather than anything like Scrooge McDuck’s money pile to jump in. And I say “owns” because would anyone actually want to purchase Mar A Lardo for what he thinks it’s worth?
tybee
@Brachiator:
that would be sorta like teaching an american history class and not being able to mention/show the declaration of independence or the constitution.
JML
@Roger Moore: That’s probably true; there’s no way they would have gone after a tenured faculty member like this…because they couldn’t. You’d never be able to fire someone with tenure over this (and I’m sure they’re hiding behind the technicality that they didn’t “fire” the adjunct, just didn’t hire them for the next semester…as if it doesn’t amount to the same thing!).
I’m staggered that the student newspaper took down a rebuttal to the administration’s actions and defense of the adjunct professor. That’s another failure to throw onto the Hamline fire.
Brachiator
@tybee:
Hmmm. No. Not even “sorta.”
Rebels Dad
@Roger Moore: I refuse to believe that a centuries-old institution that was strengthened and enriched by slavery, colonialism, and barbaric treatment of those it deemed “savages” is racist. /s
EntroPi
@WaterGirl: if you’re adding it to the library, you might want to see if you can find a version that credits kc green, the original artist:
http://gunshowcomic.com/648
WaterGirl
@EntroPi: Thanks. Using the image from Omnes, but I added a caption for KC Green.
David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up M&Ms