Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Since we are repeating ourselves, let me just say fuck that.

Oppose, oppose, oppose. do not congratulate. this is not business as usual.

If you cannot answer whether trump lost the 2020 election, you are unfit for office.

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

People identifying as christian while ignoring christ and his teachings is a strange thing indeed.

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

The republican caucus is covering themselves with something, and it is not glory.

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

American history and black history cannot be separated.

The words do not have to be perfect.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Balloon Juice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

White supremacy is terrorism.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Mediocre white men think RFK Jr’s pathetic midlife crisis is inspirational. The bar is set so low for them, it’s subterranean.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.

Every decision we make has lots of baggage with it, known or unknown.

75% of people clapping liked the show!

You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Love Means Let Other Versions Exist

Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Love Means Let Other Versions Exist

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Something good to start the day. E.J. Dionne, in the Washington Post, “Nancy Pelosi’s complexity is a useful lesson in our polarized moment”:

… San Francisco is a singular place, as I was reminded on a recent visit. After attending an early-morning Easter Mass, I stopped by that afternoon at Dolores Park, home of the annual “Hunky Jesus” and “Foxy Mary” celebration, a drag show organized by a 44-year-old queer and trans group, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. You could view the gathering as a “Blasphemous San Francisco Easter tradition,” as SFGate put it, or as a celebration of freedom and peaceful coexistence — or both.

I mentioned my excursion to Pelosi during an interview in her office in the Capitol last week because in the years since she first arrived in Congress in 1987, she has spoken for the diversity of experience in her city not only from the perspective of a liberal politician but also as someone who takes her Catholic faith very seriously.

Her complexity is useful to ponder at a moment when rote commentary on political polarization suggests that our country is divided into camps that have nothing in common, that people are incapable of changing their minds on anything, that our lines of hatred and mistrust are impermeable, and that politicians are doomed to be cartoonlike representatives of prefabricated ideologies…

“We’re all God’s children,” she insisted. “People say to me, ‘Oh, it’s easy for you to be where you are because San Francisco is so tolerant.’ And I say to them, tolerant is a condescending word to me in certain respects. It’s not about tolerance; it’s about respect, and it’s about taking pride.”

In her first speech in Congress, she spoke of the urgency of the HIV/AIDS crisis that was ravaging the country — and her city especially. “I was going to funerals sometimes more than one a day, certainly more than one a week,” she said.

Pelosi’s perspective and experience lead her to believe that time is on the side of openness. She noted that during the AIDS crisis, many discovered for the first time that someone in their family was gay. “The more people knew people,” the more “attitudes changed.” The shift in public opinion around same-sex marriage seemed sudden, she said, but it wasn’t. It was the product of a long period of more and more Americans realizing that LGBTQ people were part of their lives. “I think that that same thing will happen on the trans front.”

Republicans, she added, have little to contribute on her revered kitchen table issues — she highlights the “unfinished business” of the child tax credit, family and medical leave, and home health care — so they turn to social divisions. As she summarized, “They have nothing, so they had to pick on trans” people…

Right before Donald Trump went on CNN for his town hall, Pelosi joined Hillary Clinton on a Zoom call with Democratic women. She told the group that “love” could be seen as an acronym for “Let Other Versions Exist.” Pelosi’s career has been a wager on the openness of her fellow citizens to many versions of being human and being American. It’s been a solid bet.

Said this before, will no doubt say it again: I was living in the Midwest when the AIDS crisis hit, and yes, there were genuinely good, caring people who actually believed, up till that moment, that they’d never even met a gay person. When they found out that it wasn’t just some Hollywood punchline — that their kid, their uncle, their priest, their good neighbor had fallen victims to the new plague — their image of the world, and their opinions, changed forever.

I was living in Massachusetts when we became the first state to legalize same-sex marriage, and a much gentler and less lethal version of a social shift happened. The more ‘ordinary’ people discovered that the new laws made a difference to their lives only in that some of their family / friends / neighbors were able to be happy in public, the fewer low-info voters were willing to support ‘traditionalists’ screaming that public orgies would be the next barricade breached.

There are too many openly trans Americans for the current disgraceful scandal-mongering by the GOP to ‘win’. I have nothing but sympathy and respect for the many, many individuals who are and will suffer because some politicians find it profitable to support a shrinking minority of bigots and phantasists, but I believe that (hopefully soon!) we as a nation will decide to Let Other Variants Exist!

Reader Interactions

150Comments

  1. 1.

    Tony Jay

    Yup. It’s about taking pride in being a decent person and demanding a better life for everyone over being a reactionary screamer obsessed with gunning down non-existent threats to non-existent ‘values’.

    Get that back and the Right have nowhere to go but back into their box*.

     

    * Which I’d suggest could then be dumped overboard somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, but I’m open to compromise.

  2. 2.

    Gretchen

    I was in the Midwest in 1975 and said I didn’t know any gay people. I was corrected: “you don’t know anyone that you know is gay”.

  3. 3.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Kentucky’s Republican secretary of state has earned widespread praise for increasing his state’s voter turnout during the coronavirus pandemic and for expanding opportunities to vote. He has also shot down conspiracy theories about the 2020 election and defended his state’s election system from claims of fraud, a stance that could cost him his job.

    On Tuesday, Michael Adams is facing a primary challenge from two Republicans who align themselves with the growing faction within the GOP who believe elections are frequently rigged and stolen. The winner will face Buddy Wheatley, a Democrat and former state representative, in November.

    In an interview, Adams said it would “absolutely” be worth it if he loses the race to have defended and expanded Kentucky’s elections, but he was hopeful that Kentucky Republicans understood the ways his reforms had benefited them.

    “I’m not surprised that I have a primary, but I also think in my gut that if these Republicans utilized early voting and absentee voting, then they’re not going to hold it against me that I implemented those things,” he told the Guardian.

    They will utilize early voting and absentee voting, but they will still blame you for allowing people to vote while DEM.

    “There won’t be a GOP primary that doesn’t have election denialism as part of it,” said Ben Ginsberg, a conservative elections lawyer, at a recent conference for election officials in Washington DC.

    The lie has taken root in the heart and soul of the GOP.

  5. 5.

    Princess

    Yeah. I know so,so many people with trans kids, and they’re not all on the left. Hell, it sounds like Ted Cruz has a trans kid.

    in other news: Giuliani. What a creeper. And people forget but it tells you a lot about our news media that he was pushed so hard by them as a presidential candidate. When was that? 2008?

  9. 9.

    gene108

    I feel most people now are willing to be a lot more open minded about things simply because they’ve come to realize gay marriage, transgender people existing, interracial marriage, etc. just doesn’t impact their lives at all.

    I think conservatives have noticed and are trying to turn back time, but public attitudes have changed and public attitudes are not going to change.

  10. 10.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    In Kentucky, there have been no GOP politicians who served as Secretary of State in my lifetime that turned out to be rabid partisan assholes.

    Their staffs have always acted in an apolitical fashion, demonstrating competence and courtesy to all comers. If one of these lunatics gets in that could change, but I think it would be difficult to replace 20-plus year professionals with hangers on from flea markets, and there’d be a hell of a pushback.

  11. 11.

    Tony Jay

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    Breaking News – “After exposing the entire population of Wingnutopia to the zombie virus, Republican strategists express concern that messages other than “Eat Brainzzzz!!” show little sign of gaining purchase in key battleground races.“

  12. 12.

    gene108

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    It’s disturbing imo that even after their losses in the midterms they keep doubling down on this

    They literally do not have anything else to run on. They have no actual policies, and whatever claim they may have had to actually stand for something, like free trade for example, went out the window when Republicans decided to unquestioningly support TFG.

  13. 13.

    Matt McIrvin

    @gene108: If the situation shifts such that people learn their jobs, reputations and safety, and the safety of their families depend on being bigots, they’ll turn on a dime to being bigots again. That’s why conservatives are trying so hard to force it.

  14. 14.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    On the main topic at hand, what we have here is a First Amendment issue – you know, the Amendment that isn’t there to simply allow evangelicals to fuck people over in the name of their faith.

    Want to associate with people of your gender for sexual pleasure? Freedom of association and assembly.

    Want to wear clothing outside of the cultural signifiers of birth gender? Freedom of expression.

    Want to disagree with enforced religious rules? Freedom of religion.

    It really is that simple.

  15. 15.

    The Oracle of Solace

    My quest for better mental health began almost five years ago. I was personally quite surprised to find myself diagnosed with “girl”, though those closest to me were not. I either had one hell of a blind spot, or I had been suppressing quite a lot (¿por que no los dos?). Once I started on HRT (four years ago this month), the depression, anger, and anxiety lifted. Tomorrow I get the surgery, and, like so many other times over the last four years, I find myself wondering how many angry & depressed conservative men are actually women and don’t know it. They are, in the time-honoured conservative tradition, attacking the very thing that could make their lives better.

  19. 19.

    Chief Oshkosh

    As predicted, Big Media continue the propaganda that Durham’s opinions are the factual findings of a 5-year investigation that turned up nothing.

    These shits so, so badly want another horse race. They are clearly trying to bolster Trump (treated so unfairly!), regardless of reality. Hell, anyone watching almost any media yesterday and today would think that the FBI decided to take down Trump just for giggles.

    I would love a system in which what profits the mainstream media doesn’t harm the populace. Short of that, I’d be fine with a lot of them dying in a fire — live on the TV, natch. /s…?

  21. 21.

    Rusty

    @The Oracle of Solace: I hope the surgery goes smoothly and you heal well.  This is what actual freedom looks like, the right to be your true self.  This year I have been singing with two church choirs, both congregations are led by LGBTQ+ clergy.  You can be a devout Christian and fully embrace, accept and fight for the LGBTQ+ community.  It’s part of the kind of love to which we should all aspire to have in our lives.

  23. 23.

    Suzanne

    @Gretchen:

    I was in the Midwest in 1975 and said I didn’t know any gay people. I was corrected: “you don’t know anyone that you know is gay”.

     

    I have shared that I spent my adolescence in Mesa, AZ, which is still apparently “the most conservative city in America”. Lots of right-wing Mormonism and Christianity. I remember, the week before we started high school, I was commenting on how our friend group would grow and become more diverse, including gay people. An ex-friend said, “No, we won’t. There won’t be any gay people there.”

    She and I met two dudes in our first class on the first day. One was gay. This was the mid-90s. That dude became a lifelong friend, and many of us protected him when assholes attempted to assault him.

  24. 24.

    MomSense

    There’s a man on the bus full on praise dancing.  Every now and then he lets out an amen.  Not sure what is in his headphones but I need a little bit of that energy.

  25. 25.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Gretchen: Harvey Milk used to urge people to come out, saying what you’re saying here. If people know they know gay people, they’ll change.

    That’s probably true on abortion too. Too many people think only sluts get abortions.

    ETA: I’m skimming the overnight threads and just at the Rudy one. It’s amazing how deeply (though sometimes entertainingly) corrupt everyone close to Trump is. Maybe it’s contagious. They get swept up in it. Or maybe it’s like finding like.

  27. 27.

    Suzanne

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:

    On the main topic at hand, what we have here is a First Amendment issue – you know, the Amendment that isn’t there to simply allow evangelicals to fuck people over in the name of their faith.
     

    We could also remind them of the time-honored American tradition of minding one’s own fucken business.

    In all seriousness, I have found, from my interactions with evangelicals, that they simply never conceive of these rights separate from a position of social domination. Their brains literally do not work that way. Many of them, including Dreher, openly mock the idea of “blessings of liberty”.

  28. 28.

    HeleninEire

    Good morning, morning crew. I’m sitting in my favorite tapas bar, Salamanca, in my favorite city in earth, Dublin. Life is good!

  34. 34.

    eversor

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:

    The problem is that the Christian SCOTUS is specifically the way it is because the Christian Leonard Leo felt that religious freedom means Christians get to fuck over people if they feel like it.   That big money and the GOP rode Christianity to get what they wanted does not remove the fact that this is a Christian coup first.  As Jan 6 was a Christian attempt to overthrow the government first.   Or COVID vaccine crazyness, Putin support, global warming denial, all of it came streaming out of the churches clutching bibles and waving crosses (which both need to be designated hate symbols to begin to solve our problems) and then were ridden to power by cynical powers.  Even Tuckers hate speech was just parroting what the Christian intelligista had been saying for years.

    Trans rights are going to happen because the younger generations are less Christian and more actively hostile to Christianity.  And that’s the key to ever single problem we face.

  36. 36.

    satby

    Never be afraid to be an out, loud, and proud ally so that those who fear letting people see their authentic selves know we have their backs. Sometimes it might make you a target too; but most times it will reinforce the fact that more people know and love their LGTBQ+ family members and appreciate the support.

  38. 38.

    MomSense

    @eversor:

    The Supreme Court is the way it is because we failed to defend it.  Every time some asshole left/progressive/ lied about there being no difference between the parties, didn’t vote, voted for a green or independent or some other ratfucker, or voted for a Republican – they helped the Republicans get this Supreme Court not to mention all the other courts that have been fucked.

  42. 42.

    Suzanne

    @Betty:

    That simply does not comport with the DeSantis definition of freedom. 

    For them, freedom entails being able to flex on people. The lowercase-L libertarian position is no fun, because the best part of being a white dude is getting to treat other people like shit.

  43. 43.

    satby

    @eversor:  If you’ve never read Hoffer’s The True Believer I strongly suggest you do so ASAP.

    You’re just as much of a fanatic as the religious people you despise. And you can’t even see yourself.

  47. 47.

    Jeffro

    @gene108:They literally do not have anything else to run on. They have no actual policies, and whatever claim they may have had to actually stand for something, like free trade for example, went out the window when Republicans decided to unquestioningly support TFG.

    all of this, right here

    Strong on defense?  Uh no, trumpov was in Putin’s pocket (well, when he wasn’t in MBS’ pocket).

    Fiscal conservatism?  Uh no, they cut taxes tremendously for the rich and kept right on spending as usual.

    Pro-family?  Uh no, they let a lot of families get hit and hit hard by the pandemic (both the virus and its economic effects)

    Rule of law/law and order?  Uh no, they’re pro-domestic violence at every turn (whether by the police or by their not-all-that-tacit support of violent white supremacists)

    Republicans deliver literally not. one. thing. for their voters, except someone to hate, updated daily hourly.

  48. 48.

    mvr

    Today is the day ihere in Nebraska where the legislature tries both to curtail trans rights and ban abortion at a very early date by amending a bill that does the former to add the latter after an abortion ban was defeated earlier in the Unicameral’s session. Things are very up in the air with the good people well outnumbered but perhaps able to hang on.  We will probably find out very late tonight how this all went.

    An explainer at

    https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2023/05/15/a-guide-to-tuesdays-debate-on-amendment-to-combine-gender-affirming-care-abortion-restrictions/

    My legislator is one of the good people. I wrote her anyway saying that I know she’s on the right side of this which is why I seldom write.  Her response was that writing was still helpful.

  49. 49.

    gene108

    @Matt McIrvin:

    If the situation shifts such that people learn their jobs, reputations and safety, and the safety of their families depend on being bigots, they’ll turn on a dime to being bigots again. That’s why conservatives are trying so hard to force it.

    I hadn’t thought of it this way, but it makes a lot of sense.

    People or entities will self censure to avoid running afoul of the anti-LGBTQ laws, like school districts in Florida suspending teachers and librarians because one crank complains about a book or movie.

  50. 50.

    Gin & Tonic

    I know some of you have been concerned about Aleksandr Lukashenko’s health recently, as have I, but he made a video appearance yesterday, proof-of-life, I guess, discussing important current affairs. Since probably few of you understand Belarusian, I’ve found that someone provided a version of his appearance with English subtitles:

    I translated his speech and added subtitles. https://t.co/IZyL1TV7OG pic.twitter.com/2pLwPhiaur
    — Escalatory Memes for Depressed Majors (@SecretNofun) May 15, 2023

  52. 52.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Rusty:

    You can be a devout Christian and fully embrace, accept and fight for the LGBTQ+ community.  It’s part of the kind of love to which we should all aspire to have in our lives.

    Enthusiastically seconded!

    Too many persons identifying as Christian seem to turn the meaning of ‘love’ inside out because of what their tribe believes about some verse in Leviticus.

    We all know what love is like, but because of their tribal beliefs, they insist that loving certain persons means refusing to believe what someone tells them about themselves, and insisting that love means telling that someone, in effect, “I know what’s true about you and you don’t, even though I’ve never met you and don’t know the first thing about you.”

    Sure doesn’t feel very loving.  (And no, it isn’t even love in the ‘tough love’ sense.)

  53. 53.

    Nelle

    @satby: I’m reminded of every fundamentalist, be it religious or political or patriarchal or ant-religious, that I’ve had the misfortune to encounter.  All one-note-johnnys.  Can’t tolerate nuance, can’t tolerate complexity.  One answer. One note, banged endlessly against any issue.

  55. 55.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): ​It’s disturbing imo that even after their losses in the midterms they keep doubling down on this.

    You shouldn’t let it disturb you because it’s so fucking predictable from past behavior.Maybe you’re not old enough to remember the Clinton impeachment foofaraw 25 years ago, but they did exactly the same then:

    American public still not willing to throw Slick Willy under the bus? Well how about this tidbit? Still not willing? How about this other tidbit??

    The mortar-forkers kept doubling down and tripling down and fourpling down in pursuit of the President, absolutely convinced that the next sordid revelation would be the one that would force the public to turn on him. Or the next. Or the next.

    It never occurred to them that, however appalled folks might have been by William Jefferson Clinton’s personal behavior, they were well aware that they hadn’t hired him to babysit their 13-year-old daughter, they’d hired him to run the country, and by and large they thought he was doing a pretty decent job of it despite all the mudslinging that if anything impaired his ability to do so, and which they therefore quite properly and sensibly resented.​

    (Still disturbed? Let it motivate you not to “suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but to take arms against them, and by opposing end them.”​}

  56. 56.

    Matt McIrvin

    @gene108: I think that most people will be tolerant and kind when it’s easy. Relatively few people are heroes who will stick with it under direct threat.

  57. 57.

    BellyCat

    Intolerance is the central problem. Let Other Versions Exist, indeed!

    Suggested Democratic plank: “Intolerant of Intolerance”

    Embroidered on a wide array of rainbow hats of choice, n’atch.

  58. 58.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    You shouldn’t let it disturb you because it’s so fucking predictable from past behavior.

    Maybe you’re not old enough to remember the Clinton impeachment foofaraw 25 years ago, but they did exactly the same then:

    And back then, there were still actual policies that Republicans identified with.  Now, as Pelosi says, they’ve got nothing else.

    All they have is being assholes to people different from them who they think can’t fight back. They’ll double down on that until the rest of us make it clear that we aren’t putting up with their bullshit.  (They’ll keep on doubling down then, too, but hopefully they’ll be out of power by then as a result.)

  59. 59.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Suzanne:

    In all seriousness, I have found, from my interactions with evangelicals, that they simply never conceive of these rights separate from a position of social domination. Their brains literally do not work that way.

    I forget which politician it was who condemned separation of church and state on the grounds that we wanted the church to rule over the government instead of the government ruling over the church. The whole phrasing implied that she could not understand what “separation of church and state” was even about. One of these things had to be the boss of the other and it was just a question of which one was boss; there was no third option.

  60. 60.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I live in an over-55 building full of old, white, well-off people, meaning most of them are Republicans. My book club recently read “Mad Honey” by Jody Picoult and Jennifer Boylan, in which one of the point-of-view characters is a trans girl. I had wondered what the discussion would be like.

    The woman leading the discussion opened by conflating gay and trans and saying she blamed the schools. Sigh. Things got better from there. One woman said she’d previously had this book from the library, realized where it was heading, and returned it unfinished, but she had read it for the discussion and was receptive in her comments. I’d say at least half the participants would have fit into a discussion here. Most of them were learning about something new to them and making a good faith effort to understand.

    One woman shrugged and said 10 years ago we were talking about same-sex marriage, and now that was accepted as just normal. We’d probably eventually get to that point with trans people. I think maybe DeSantis is trying to put a genie back in the bottle and it’s not going to happen.

    ETA: Of course, I thought that was true about abortion too, and look where that went.

  61. 61.

    Mai Naem mobile

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: the only other politico who I can think of  who had such a massive slide in reputation as Rudy Giuliani is Richard Nixon. Even Nixon got his reputation partially  rehabbed later in life. That is not going to happen to Rudy.

  67. 67.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @The Oracle of Solace:

    Once I started on HRT (four years ago this month), the depression, anger, and anxiety lifted.

    I have watched this, up close, with multiple trans friends.  With every step of transition a burden of pain is lifted.  As you say, they became less depressed, less anxious, and less angry.  Bottom surgery is another big jump there, like HRT.

    It will change you in ways you don’t expect and can’t be predicted.  Some parts of you that were minor facets will dominate, because your body is right and because you’re no longer being pushed by pain.  The journey isn’t done.

    But it’s about to get a whole lot happier.

  69. 69.

    WereBear

    @The Oracle of Solace: …I find myself wondering how many angry & depressed conservative men are actually women and don’t know it. They are, in the time-honoured conservative tradition, attacking the very thing that could make their lives better.

     
    Now you have me wondering! My best to you.

  70. 70.

    Ken

    @Matt McIrvin: The whole phrasing implied that she could not understand what “separation of church and state” was even about.

    Some people wouldn’t get the point until they were tied to a stake at an auto-da-fé and the flames started rising.

  71. 71.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Suzanne:

    I have found, from my interactions with evangelicals, that they simply never conceive of these rights separate from a position of social domination.

    Huge conservative thing.  Theirs is the only legitimate way, so by definition rights only apply to them.  If there is only one religion, then religious liberty means that religion gets whatever it wants.

  72. 72.

    WereBear

    When I got married my evangelical brother could not grasp that our marriage was egalitarian. There was no Boss.

    Could not imagine it! And we grew up in the same family and I… am not that way at all :)

  74. 74.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Frankensteinbeck: And any threat to their way, they conceive as just an inversion–their preferred social order but upside down. If whites aren’t bullying and oppressing minorities then minorities must be bullying and oppressing whites. If it isn’t forbidden to be transgender, then it will inevitably become mandatory to be transgender. Belief in God is either enforced or suppressed, etc.

  76. 76.

    Suzanne

    @Matt McIrvin:

    The whole phrasing implied that she could not understand what “separation of church and state” was even about. One of these things had to be the boss of the other and it was just a question of which one was boss; there was no third option. 

    There’s a lot of right-wing Christians who think that “separation of church and state” refers only to churches to which religious minorities belong. They believe that, in places where Christians are a majority, they can and should have the “freedom” to make religion a part of American government. This is why the reduction of religiosity and the rise of “nones” freaks this cohort out so much. They can’t imagine any society in which everyone is technically a minority in some fashion, and it’s okay, and we can all just mind our own business and all have the same rights.

  77. 77.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Baud: …but the rest of us say 👍.​

    Um, I’m only going partway with “the rest of yinz” because IMO eversor has a point, which in his outrage he makes poorly and intemperately and which many of yinz want to dismiss out of hand:

    Whenever the adherents of a spiritual belief system allow themselves to be seduced into chasing after temporal power, there’s trouble a-brewing.

    (And it’s not just Christianity – consider [e.g] the amount of blood shed over the line of descent from the Prophet [i.e.,Sunni vs Shia] – or more recently the Taliban; the fascist-leaning Hindu nationalism of Modi; and the ultra-orthodox right-wing parties in Israel.)

    Unfortunately the opportunity for Christianity to go astray arrived with the conversion of the emperor Constantine, who handed them the temporal power of an imperium-wide state religion >1700 years ago, and the taste for it never left most of the clergy even when the Church started to fragment, from Luther down through the Later-The-Same Day-Sinners LDS and contemporary megachurch-operators. Once the opportunity arose to enforce spiritual proscriptions with temporal force, it was facile for religious leaders to decide that “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and render unto God the things that are God’s” was said by Jesus with a wink-wink-nod-nod-fingers-crossed-behind-his-back, because hey, everything is God’s in the final analysis, so Caesar gets bupkis unless he’s on The Big Guy’s side 110%, which is where the imposers of spiritual doctrine/dogma came onward-Christian-soldiering in…​

  78. 78.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    @Matt McIrvin: I seem to recall that the politician who said that government should be subordinate to the Church was Lauren Boebert. Which begs the question of “which church?” I doubt that she would accept the Church of the Sub-Genius or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Did you ever see “Ali Baba Bunny”? Daffy Duck was successful in cramming the genie back into the lamp. Briefly successful.

  79. 79.

    Baud

    @Matt McIrvin:

    To be honest, they’re not completely wrong on a theoretical level.  A reactionary mindset is a human problem, and any group of people not on the lookout for it is susceptible to it.  It just so happens that the dominant group in the US is the white male Christian, so their reactionary politics is the most harmful to American society.

  80. 80.

    Baud

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    many of yinz want to dismiss out of hand:

     
    I’m not sure what we’re dismissing out of hand, or why we can’t give Rusty a full 👍. The rest of your comment is about separation of church and state, which I assume everyone here believes in.

  81. 81.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Uncle Cosmo: The bigot’s point is different from the one you are making.  He sees Christianity as pernicious.  Few people would disagree with the point you are making, but your defense of eversor is both condescending and wrong.

  84. 84.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @The Oracle of Solace: ​I find myself wondering how many angry & depressed conservative men are actually women and don’t know it.

    Well, I find myself wondering how many angry and depressed conservative women are actually men fed up with indirect passive-aggressive manipulation of their menfolk** and itching to get their hands officially on the implements for abusing unbelievers.

    ** In fairness, in their belief system and society, there’s not much else they can do to gain some share of power…

  86. 86.

    Elizabelle

    @The Oracle of Solace:  Proud of you for being so honest and courageous!  Hope the surgery goes well, and you recover comfortably, and do check in with us when you feel up to it.

    What an exciting time to be living in.  In a good way, for you!

  87. 87.

    Sure Lurkalot

    In 1975, Clela Rorex, a Boulder County clerk, issued the 1st gay marriage license in Colorado. In 1992, Colorado was called the “hate state” when voters passed an initiative to prohibit the state from enacting antidiscrimination protections for gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. This stayed on the books until 1995 when the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional by a 6-3 vote.

    Now Colorado has a blue trifecta that seems solid but as in the before times, things change. That’s why we have to step up for our fellow humans whatever their stripes.

  88. 88.

    Manyakitty

    @Uncle Cosmo: largely.

    Also, too, I have a number of friends who I call ‘people of genuine faith.’ They are as horrified by what is happening to their religions as the rest of us.

  90. 90.

    Suzanne

    Read this bullshit:

    The Bible should be read as the first among the sources of a shared Western civilization in schools and universities, and as the rightful inheritance of believers and non-believers alike. Where a Christian majority exists, public life should be rooted in Christianity and its moral vision, which should be honored by the state and other institutions both public and private. At the same time, Jews and other religious minorities are to be protected in the observance of their own traditions, in the free governance of their communal institutions, and in all matters pertaining to the rearing and education of their children. Adult individuals should be protected from religious or ideological coercion in their private lives and in their homes.

    There’s a lot of right-wing Christians who believe this.

  91. 91.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Matt McIrvin:

    And any threat to their way, they conceive as just an inversion–their preferred social order but upside down.

    If there is only one legitimate way, then there are no differences of opinion, there are only people deliberately doing good and people deliberately doing bad.  It’s a great mindset if you like declaring yourself the hero and then shutting down all responsibility to ever think about any challenges to what you want – as you have watched happen.

  92. 92.

    Baud

    @Suzanne: I’m not sure how much they believe the second half

    ETA: In fact, I’d go so far as to say that believing the second half will eventually negate the first half given enough time.

  94. 94.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Suzanne: The Bible should be read as the first among the sources of a shared Western civilization in schools and universities,

    Which one? Last I checked there were 64 versions of the absolute word of god.

  95. 95.

    Cameron

    @Bruce K in ATH-GR: I recall it was Ms. Boebert, too.  Presumably she’d like to revive the Inquisition, where (IIRC) the Church made the judgements and handed the convicted over to “the secular arm” for punishment.

  96. 96.

    Cameron

    @Suzanne: And we all must speak English.  Since that’s what Jesus spoke, there’s no reason to learn any other language.

  97. 97.

    Elizabelle

    @Cameron:  Meh.  Boebert.  The Church of Who Would Jesus Shoot?

    Performance artist with a temporary government job.

  101. 101.

    Soprano2

    My  mother told me she didn’t even know there was a such thing as gay people until she read the Life Magazine feature about San Francisco and the gay culture there; I think it was in 1967, she would have been 33 or 34 then. I believe it, my grandparents were conservative, religious and traditional. Areas like SWMO were a lot more isolated from the world than they are now, so it would have been easy to not know about that. Strange thing is, she had a cousin who I am SURE was gay. It was never talked about in the family, but I have no doubt at all. I sometimes wonder how sad he was that he had to hide that part of his life from his family.

    When I was a teenager I knew there were gay people, but believed I didn’t know any. Found out later that one of my high school classmates is gay. He comes into the bar with his husband every now and then. They spend half their year here and half in Florida, where they make money decorating rich people’s houses for Christmas. So yeah, you just never know. One of my cooks came out as trans, they say they may have to move out of Missouri if the things the Republicans are trying to do are actually successful because they won’t be able to get treatment anymore.

  103. 103.

    Suzanne

    @Baud: I agree with you. I also note that they only name-check Judaism as another religion. Not giving away anything there, no sir.

    But note that, in this dream vision, religious minorities would only be protected from coercion in their private lives and in their own homes. In all aspects of public life, including employment, etc…. coercion and marginalization would be completely acceptable.

  105. 105.

    Miss Bianca

    @Soprano2: I’m pretty sure my dad was gay – or bi, anyway. And that his best friend, my Uncle Freddy, was, as an ex-boyfriend used to put it, “queer as a three-dollar bill.”

    I shared this insight with my (late) favorite sister, and she just nodded, like it made perfect sense to her. My younger brother, however, would likely go foaming mad at the very thought. He’s a born-again Catholic (our family isn’t) and rabidly homophobic.

    Which, of course, makes me wonder about *him* – not married, never had a serious girlfriend in his life that I am aware of, the afore-mentioned homophobia, etc. I think he might be so deeply closeted he’ll never find his way out.

    As a certain ex-POTUS might put it: Sad!

  106. 106.

    Jim Appleton

    I initiated a memorial service for a trans person in rural, conservative Wasco County,  Oregon.

    Ellen cut a wide swathe and was beloved by just about everyone.  And I mean everyone.  She was so active and involved in several communities that an astonishing number of folks had some degree of contact or connection, and knew her reputation for curiosity,  kindness, enthusiasm, participation, amazing feats of endurance, creativity, expression, …

    The memorial was attended by about four hundred.

    I watched carefully as many learned for the first time Ellen was trans.

    The archetype was a rock-ribbed good ol boy here in Mosier who loved her to death in life, gave a blank stare to his wife, then got up and left.

    For all the minds that change when l.o.v.e. comes home to roost, sadly there are some that may budge but retreat in horror.  FSM help them.

  108. 108.

    Suzanne

    @The Moar You Know:

    that whole screed is the fanciest way of saying “get back in the closet and stay there, heretic” that I have ever read.

     

    Oh, it says so much! There’s also this part:

    The disintegration of the family, including a marked decline in marriage and childbirth, gravely threatens the wellbeing and sustainability of democratic nations. Among the causes are an unconstrained individualism that regards children as a burden, while encouraging ever more radical forms of sexual license and experimentation as an alternative to the responsibilities of family and congregational life. Economic and cultural conditions that foster stable family and congregational life and child-raising are priorities of the highest order.

    Sluts need to get out of college and stop traveling and get back into the kitchen. Baby-making is the task of the day!

  109. 109.

    RaflW

    @The Oracle of Solace: Best wishes for tomorrow.

    As far as conservatives go, I dunno how many might be trans, but I believe many of them are quite repressed and deeply resent that they can’t let themselves have some personal leeway. So they attack the liberated rather than inquire as to their own wants and needs.

    That disgusting creep who just got tossed from the TX legislature is a glaring example. And back in the day when I lived in Austin, there was a famous ‘pastor’ who was widely known to have a massive porn collection — for ‘research’ purposes. He also lurked in the bushes of a notorious gay cruising park, and he’d wait till the, uhhh, rendez vous was over to leap out and scare them off. Huh. Curious timing, innit?

    If these people could let their (legal, consensual) freak flags fly, we’d all be so much better off. Many were I’m sure raised by equally repressed harsh disciplinarians. But never managed to shake off the cultural programming.

  110. 110.

    Layer8Problem

    @Bruce K in ATH-GR:  His last words before the genie delivered his comeuppance were “Consequences shmonsequences, as long as I’m rich.”  Sounds like a Republican.

  111. 111.

    Jacqueline Squid Onassis

    @The Oracle of Solace:

     

    I’m so happy for you and wish you a speedy and smooth recovery.

    Like you, it was during my search for mental health that I learned (admitted is probably more accurate) that I’m a girl.  Like you, I heard things like, “I was wondering when you’d figure that out!”  Sometimes it take# longer than you’d think to know who you are.

  112. 112.

    Baud

    @Suzanne:

    Economic and cultural conditions that foster stable family and congregational life and child-raising are priorities of the highest order.

     

    If he wants the economic stuff, his only choice is Dems.

    I’d actually also say the Dems are better when it comes to cultural conditions too, but bit that’s more subjective.

  113. 113.

    RaflW

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: People with even a minimal internal sense of right and wrong shied away from TFG. I frankly don’t even think his first-round cabinet appointments had moral compasses, or if they did, it pointed towards opportunism first, and ethics as a weak second force.

    The fact that Elaine Chao made it through basically the whole Admin damns her. (I also maintain, tough I’ve never gotten traction from others on this, that Elaine was a convenient conduit for paperless/bitless info to flow between Don & Mitch).

  114. 114.

    CaseyL

    @The Oracle of Solace: Congratulations, and best wishes for smooth sailing with the surgery!

    The idea that people who are extremely angry and anti- certain things (like being gay or trans) are themselves deeply closeted goes back a long way.  And is probably true.

    They get a double whammy of misery, not only for hating their true selves, but the additional anger/anxiety of externalizing the self-hatred.  It’s not enough they hate themselves; they also “have to” hate whoever embodies the life they’ve denied.

    I don’t feel the least bit sorry for them.   Maybe in centuries past they were more to be pitied than not, since they possibly “didn’t know” what was eating them alive (or knew, but lived in a global culture of denial). But nowadays? No excuses.

  115. 115.

    Ken

    @Baud: Should they ever get power, I’d expect the first half to erode considerably also, as they started deciding who qualifies as “Christian”.  Still, I’m sure all the protections the second half guarantees to Jews would also be granted to Mormons, Catholics, Episcopalians, Southern Baptists, …

  116. 116.

    Suzanne

    @Baud: I agree; I have long thought that the political left-liberal-libertarian position is the only intellectually honest one for a committed Christian.

    But right-wingers are all about will-to-power shit. (That Jesus, he was a real hardass.) Everything for them is about status and hierarchy and enforcement and resource hoarding.

    I don’t actually think that most homophobes are secretly gay — some are, of course, but not most. I think that they feel like they have higher status (more respectable, more godly, more important, more virtuous) because they’re straight, and even more if they have a financially dependent wife and children. And if being LGBTQ becomes a thing that most people regard as neutral…. then they lose a perceived advantage.

  117. 117.

    cain

    @Gretchen: ​
     
    In my small Indiana town I didn’t know anyone that was gay. But many in my graduating class came out after high school.

  118. 118.

    NotMax

    @Suzanne

    Fall into two camps.

    Those terrified they might be be seen as desirable and those furious that they’re not.

  119. 119.

    cain

    @The Oracle of Solace: ​
     
    Likely religion which always ends up putting rigidity into human behavior. Any system that dictates moral right and wrong and demands adherence will create this

  120. 120.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Omnes Omnibus: The bigot’s point is different from the one you are making. He sees Christianity as pernicious.

    When a spiritual movement has been courting temporal power for 1,700 years, there’s bound to be some pernicious stuff happening in its name. Such as the Thirty Years War. The conflicts that ripped apart the Holy Roman Empire a century earlier (all to get to the Peace of Augsburg and cuius regio, eius religio in 1555). Or the destruction of the “heretic” Cathars in the 1200s. Or the Crusades. Or the sporadic massacres of Jews who were conveniently and repeatedly scapegoated for the miseries of the day.

    Not to say there hasn’t been enough blood shed in the name of other religions with (or in pursuit of) temporal clout. (Notably the million or so who died in Hindu-Muslim violence during the partition of India, but even won’t-harm-an-ant Buddhists have been known to get a bit, mmm, combative at times.} But while eversor is pretty damned ;^) down on Christianity, I don’t recall her/him “ever” promoting some other spiritual movement in its place. Can you cite a counter-example?

    Few people would disagree with the point you are making, but your defense of eversor is both condescending and wrong.​

    Condescending? To whom? Christians who don’t like to be reminded of the rivers of blood shed ostensibly in Christ’s name by people s who wouldn’t know Jesus if he slid up beside them and handed them a fish and a loaf? “Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it” – and the surest way for that to happen is to claim Christianity is a religion of peace and love and tolerance while stomping on anyone who notes the prevalence of Old-Testament-I-Am-A-Jealous-God variants that would gleefully run roughshod over everyone else in their Lord’s name.

    Wrong? Uh-uh, Oh-Oh, I don’t think so. I only said s/he had a point. You apparently want to believe s/he doesn’t – in the teeth of a lot of history to the contrary – in what seems like a misguided attempt to protect Jackals (possibly including yourself) from those who threaten to subsume their beliefs in a tsunami of bigotry. IMO they’d be better protected if they were better aware of what atrocities have been (and might be) committed by people who claim to be Christian but are (in words attributed to but probably never uttered by Gandhi) “so unlike their Christ.”

  122. 122.

    Suzanne

    @NotMax: It goes back to “respect”, right? You hear them say a lot that they feel “disrespected”. And that, to me, is so weird. I think what they really mean is that they no longer feel esteemed or “looked up to” or admired.

    And, for the most part, no one should feel that way, in my view. That’s not the social dynamic of equals.

  123. 123.

    zhena gogolia

    Our new minister is a trans man. He gives brilliant, theologically deep sermons interpreting the Bible. But we’re the part of Christianity that is dying out. It’s tragic.

  124. 124.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @WereBear: @The Oracle of Solace:

    …I find myself wondering how many angry & depressed conservative men are actually women and don’t know it. They are, in the time-honoured conservative tradition, attacking the very thing that could make their lives better.

    Few, I imagine. I think its more the way that misogyny, toxic masculinity, homophobia, and transphobia feed off each other and blend together for them.

  125. 125.

    StringOnAStick

    @Baud: I think the second half of that statement is only there for them to point to as “see how tolerant we are?  Don’t worry, when (white) Christianity is in charge of every aspect of your life, we’ll be completely tolerant of your religion, honest!”. Two bits, cup of crappy coffee, etc.

  126. 126.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @Suzanne:

    They can’t imagine any society in which everyone is technically a minority in some fashion, and it’s okay, and we can all just mind our own business and all have the same rights.

    They believe their faith requires them to prosthelytize. In practical terms, this means telling the gay coworker his marriage isn’t real and he’s going to Hell, the trans coworker that they are going against God’s divine order, and the Jewish or Atheist employee to convert or burn. In the past, this wouldn’t get them fired. Now it might. That’s part of what is freaking them out so much. It is bad for them, but great for the rest of us.

  127. 127.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Uncle Cosmo: I doubt that there is a person who posts on this site who is not aware of the horrible things that have been done in the name of Christianity.  Oh, btw, that’s where the condescending bit comes in.  The assumption that you need to explain something like that.  As far as the wrong part goes, eversor isn’t making a point about religion and using the actions of Christians as examples.  He is saying that Christianity itself is the problem.  And, as far as my views, I am an agnostic, but bigotry offends me.

  128. 128.

    StringOnAStick

    @Suzanne: Oh, “congregational life”!  My translator ring says you’ll be forced to attend and belong to a church, or else.

  130. 130.

    StringOnAStick

    @Jim Appleton: I hope that at Ellen’s service, seeing this guy go from caring to hate the moment when he realised what he’s just heard was a very instructive moment for the rest of the 400 there.  I hope it had more than a few thinking about what being an ally is, much more deeply than before.

  131. 131.

    Soprano2

    @Suzanne: They think that in order for the world to be “right”, conservative evangelical Christians must run things, and what they want must prevail over what anyone else wants. They have a lot in common with the government of Saudi Arabia, they just don’t realize it. They will allow people to worship within certain parameters; if they had their way anyone not some kind of Christian would be banished to “somewhere else”.

  132. 132.

    StringOnAStick

    @NotMax: I would add a little nuance to your thesis: The male faced with the sudden realization that another guy might be thinking/talking/behaving just like he does towards women, and the status loss that implies*.  Sure, he can be a retrograde cad about women, but he’s a guy, dammit, you can’t act that way towards him!

    * Not bloody likely that any self respecting gay guy would be interested in such a putz of course.

  134. 134.

    StringOnAStick

    @The Oracle of Solace: I wish you an easy surgery and recovery, and congratulations on finding out who you are and having the support needed to act on it.  By the way, I love your nym.

  135. 135.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I doubt that there is a person who posts on this site who is not aware of the horrible things that have been done in the name of Christianity.  Oh, btw, that’s where the condescending bit comes in.  The assumption that you need to explain something like that.  As far as the wrong part goes, eversor isn’t making a point about religion and using the actions of Christians as examples.  He is saying that Christianity itself is the problem.  And, as far as my views, I am an agnostic, but bigotry offends me.

    Then speaking as a born-again Christian, please don’t feel you’re speaking up on my behalf.  You seem to be way more riled by eversor than I am, even though supposedly his rants are aimed at me as well as at the people who are doing their best to turn Christianity into Assholism.

    The way I figure it, he wouldn’t be ranting like that if there weren’t so damned many of that latter group of people, and I can completely relate to his feelings about them.

    And to the extent that his rants are aimed at me, they have the opposite of their intended effect: they just remind me of who and what I am in Christ.

    The Lord loves eversor every bit as much as the Lord loves me (and trust me, that’s hardly an abstraction to me!), and I bear him no ill will.

  136. 136.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lowtechcyclist: Then speaking as a born-again Christian, please don’t feel you’re speaking up on my behalf.

    I don’t.  I am speaking for myself.

  138. 138.

    gvg

    @Matt McIrvin: It was about not being murdered when your exact beliefs did not have the upper hand PLUS not leaving a weapon around for the greedy to claim you were a heretic so they could get your property. The founders were descendants of colonists who were often fleeing the religious wars of Europe between different varieties of Christians and then the witch trials etc. They had more recent memories of history.  Our current conservatives amaze me with how ignorant they are.  The separation of church and state protects religious freedom! They have no idea! They think that they would always get their own way if we didn’t have it and don’t know how good we have it. Trying to impose religion will cause a revolt and could finish it for good which is fine by me except for having to live with the finding out period.

    None of them seem to have read any real history. It just stuns me.

  139. 139.

    UncleEbeneezer

    The truth is, the morality police were playing the long game for decades while the rest of us lounged on the beach. Those who sat on the sidelines let this happen, and unless they get off their duffs and help reclaim what we had, it will stay lost.

    Yup.  There was a tweet yesterday:

    This is so interesting. An article by anti-trans campaigner Brendan O’Neil. Swap ‘gay’ for ‘trans’ in 2023, and it’s word for word what he does now.

    And of course, we can swap ‘gay’ for ‘black’ and it is almost verbatim the language used in the 1950’s to spread fear about school integration. Fortunately, people are finally starting to recognize that it’s always the same playbook and that we need to really listen when more marginalized groups raise the alarm because it’s never just about this group or that group; the goal is always to expand the attacks to most/all of us.

  140. 140.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    @gvg: I can attest to that – from being conscripted into an army in a state which doesn’t have separation of church and state. Those who weren’t part of the correct religion got latrine duty when church services were in session. And I got a direct order from an officer to get myself baptized into the proper religion.

    Of course, there are people in the US who think that their freedom of religion includes the right to impose their religion on others. Look at all the pharmacists who think that their religion gives them the right to refuse to fill prescriptions they decree to be against their religion, whether or not the patient is part of their religion.

  141. 141.

    Soprano2

    @Miss Bianca: Hubby had a friend who didn’t like women who didn’t conform to a traditional female role. More than anything, we all needed to “know our place”. Oracle’s comment makes me wonder if he thought there was something wrong with women because he knew he should be attracted to them but wasn’t, so instead of deciding he was gay he decided it was the women’s fault. We think he was a deeply closeted gay man who might not have known himself that he was gay.

  142. 142.

    Soprano2

    @Suzanne: I think what they really mean is that they no longer feel esteemed or “looked up to” or admired.

    This, 1,000%. They feel like they were in charge of the U.S. for most of its history, and that this is the only right way for things to be.

  143. 143.

    Ruckus

    I’ve known gay people my entire life. Related to more than one. Of course the closest one didn’t know she was gay for a bit of her life, but I have met and known gay people for as long as I have known the concept of what gender means. I’ve known gay people long before it was even marginally acceptable to be gay. Humanity allows differences, it’s humans being less than human that required conformity and zero outside the box thinking about being alive. Someone else being gay does not change or harm me or my life or living. What makes it my business if you are gay or not? Not a damn thing. Live and let live. One of my best friends in life was my sisters partner for 9 yrs.

    I knew at least one gay man in the navy, onboard the same ship. He did his job and did it well and to my knowledge no one ever said a word, because it really wasn’t anyone else’s business. One wasn’t officially allowed to be gay in the US military 50 yrs ago but if anyone thinks there weren’t gay humans in the military, they are wrong.

    Because of the number of gay people I’ve known and how some hid it well from people that they worked with, and sometimes socialized with and the people I’ve met that thought that their lives would be destroyed by someone else just being gay while they were standing next to a gay person and had not one clue, I know that it would be funny, if it wasn’t so dangerous to that gay person that they had to hide. And I can’t fathom one iota of how or why they would suffer. Because they weren’t suffering in the least, standing there discussing life with a gay human. If it wasn’t so ridiculous it might have been funny.

    Life is rarely the easy, one way path that some think it is. It’s complicated, it’s often weird, even more often it really isn’t what many think it is like or should be. It can be fun, challenging, disturbing, scary, ridiculous, satisfying, overwhelming, and it can be all this and more, and often all at the same time.

  145. 145.

    Ruckus

    @The Oracle of Solace:

    All the best.

    Life is to be enjoyed, not suffered. Sure we all suffer on occasion but no one should have to suffer because life can’t see who they are and allow them to be themselves. Here’s to successful surgery and a great recovery. Enjoy your life, be who you actually are.

  146. 146.

    Ruckus

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    The lie has taken root in the heart and soul of the GOP.

    Without that lie they have nothing. Their policies are intended to give them power, intended to take away from everyone else the power to have equality and often life itself. The gop wants a life that gives them power and everyone else a back seat and a muzzle. Their policies give them the voice and power and everyone else the power to shut the hell up and obey. They want a monarchy with their family names as the head of the pack.

  147. 147.

    Citizen Alan

    @Suzanne:

    I don’t actually think that most homophobes are secretly gay — some are, of course, but not most.

    I believe that there are three “strains” of homophobia. Type 1 consists of deeply closeted gays and lesbians who choose to hate gays rather than confront their own self-loathing. Type 2 consists of genuine religious lunatics who truly believe that gays are “an abomintaion” and that God will literally punish them if they show any compassion or empathy towards gays. Type 3 consists of straight men who are deeply misogynistic and who thus assume that every gay man looks at them like they look at every woman who crosses their path, and they are at once deeply offended to be viewed that way and also terrified that a gay man who gains power over them would take sexual advantage of them. I have encountered all three.

  148. 148.

    Citizen Alan

    @Soprano2: The only difference between fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam is their attitudes towards facial hair and turbans. Other than that, it’s just a question of what the law will allow  fundamentalist to get away with.

  149. 149.

    The Oracle of Solace

    @Scamp Dog: Thank you for the welcome! Yes, I lurk here, but I don’t usually comment because everyone is so much smarter than me. I recently read another book that got me thinking (Arlie Russell Hochschild’s Strangers In Their Own Land), so I’m going to see what kind of video I can make while under the influence of powerful narcotic painkillers.

  150. 150.

    Mudbrush

    @The Oracle of Solace
    Congratulations, dear! No one should put up with being a gender they are not comfortable in! Getting bottom surgery was the best gift I ever gave to myself. Transitioning saved my life.

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