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You are here: Home / Open Threads / The Man Has A Point (Open Thread)

The Man Has A Point (Open Thread)

by WaterGirl|  December 10, 20232:30 pm| 174 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Seeing the articles that say “Trump jokes about being a dictator” makes me want to scream.

At least none of these people are promoting the lie about it being a joke.

It’s getting weird. Donald Trump isn’t joking about being a dictator on day one. Was he joking with the “grab them by the 🐈” comment? Wasn’t trump charged with sexual assault 🤔 and forced to pay $5 million to the victim pic.twitter.com/WG51EpfFEP

— 2RawTooReal (@2RawTooReal) December 8, 2023

h/t rikyrah for the tiktok guy above

🌸

(Medium)

Fascist Dictatorship is Not a Laughing Matter

Are we really at the point where we need to explain that?

Now, I know what you’re thinking. It was a joke, Fox News said it was.

Here’s the thing: no it wasn’t. And you know it wasn’t, so stop pretending that it was. We all know who Donald Trump is. His repeated praise of dictators and strongmen is a matter of public record.

For years, Trump has been making comments like this and his supporters have brushed it off as an easily baited public freaking out over nothing.

Then January 6th happened. Suddenly it’s not so funny anymore, is it? Suddenly, it’s sounding an awful lot like a genuine call to arms.

🌸

(Salon)

A dictator on “day one”: The time to push back on Trump is now.

As Trump returns to his old playbook, defenders of democracy must not lose hope.

🌸

(BBC)

Dictatorship – or at least the threat of it – has been a topic of much discussion in American politics this week.

As Donald Trump continues his seemingly easy march to the Republican presidential nomination, critics have been sharpening their attacks on him.

Neoconservative scholar Robert Kagan penned an essay in the Washington Post warning that “the odds of the United States falling into dictatorship have grown considerably”. And former Republican congresswoman Liz Cheney, another vocal critic of Mr Trump, told CBS the US was “sleepwalking into dictatorship”.

The former president dismissed these warnings as more evidence of “Trump Derangement Syndrome”.

Then, at a town hall forum in Iowa on Tuesday night, Trump – who has frequently lavished praise on strongmen like Russia’s Vladimir Putin and North Korea’s Kim Jong-un – threw petrol on the fire and danced around the flames.

As some US news headlines put it, Trump seemed to confirm the worst fears of his critics – that he would become a “dictator” if re-elected to the US presidency.

However, the exchange was a bit more complicated than that.

Fox News moderator Sean Hannity was attempting to prompt the former president to dismiss the accusation that, if elected next year, he planned to abuse presidential power to punish his enemies, as Trump has sometimes implied in past comments.
“You are promising America tonight, you would never abuse this power as retribution against anybody?” Hannity asked.
And that’s when Trump, again venturing into that grey area between humour and seriousness, said he wouldn’t abuse his power… “except for day one” of his next term in office.

🌸

(Yahoo)

Hannity was practically begging Trump to deny he would ever do such a thing. Alas, Trump refused to take his cue.

“Except on Day One,” he replied, to half-hearted cheers and laughs from the friendly audience. The former president seemed to find the whole thing amusing. “This guy, he says, ‘You’re not going to be a dictator, are you?’” Trump joked to the crowd, motioning at Hannity. “I said, ‘No, no, no, other than Day One.’ We’re closing the border. And we’re drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I’m not a dictator.”

You should not find that last line to be very reassuring. Trump, for all his lies, is being remarkably candid about what will happen if he wins in 2024. He will govern this country without any regard for the rule of law, and he will jail anyone who tries to stop him. His campaign platform is dictatorship.

This is not hyperbole. In fact, Trump and his allies have boasted about their extremist plans for a potential second term. To recap: Trumpworld is scheming to install ideological loyalists throughout the federal government, purge the civil service of any dissenters, centralize all power in the executive branch, and unleash the Justice Department on Trump’s perceived political enemies with sham prosecutions.

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

174Comments

  1. 1.

    hrprogressive

    December 10, 2023 at 2:34 pm

    Let’s be very clear that people were warning about this before the 2016 election, much less 2020, or 2024.

    Plenty of commentators, experts, and so on, were derided as “alarmist” at the time.

    Sounds like every single one of them was absolutely correct.

    Less than 12 months before the 2024 election is way too long for the mainstream media to have started pointing out how dangerous this is, but while the best time would have been all the way back in 2015, the next best time is right now, while we still have a chance to stop him.

  2. 2.

    Alison Rose

    December 10, 2023 at 2:35 pm

    Okay, I agree it’s not a laughing matter, but I admit I lost it when Trae said TIFG was “both a dick and a tater”.

  3. 3.

    gene108

    December 10, 2023 at 2:38 pm

    I think if Donald Trump wins in 2024, it will create a real problem for Republicans going into the 2028 election. Do they amend the Constitution to let Trump seek a third term (or fourth*) term or do they standup to him for the sake of their own ambition?

    *If Trump really did win the 2020 election, as he and his supporters claim, he’d be seeking a fourth term in 2028.

  4. 4.

    H.E.Wolf

    December 10, 2023 at 2:41 pm

    Although I’m well aware of the dangerous path to dictatorship (my dad and his family lived under one), I’m more useful in both the short and long run by focusing on concrete, positive actions I can take in opposition to that path.

    Relatedly… the thermometer for Four Directions MT has crossed the $25 mark! That is going to fund a helluva lot of direct, concrete action in the next 11-12 months.

  5. 5.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 2:42 pm

    @hrprogressive:

    …the next best time is right now, while we still have a chance to stop him.

    Yes!  The best time to plant an oak tree was a hundred years ago.  The second best time is today.

  6. 6.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 2:44 pm

    @gene108:

    I think if Donald Trump wins in 2024, it will create a real problem for Republicans going into the 2028 election.

    “the 2028 election” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

  7. 7.

    Timill

    December 10, 2023 at 2:44 pm

    @gene108: What 2028 election? A national emergency will require suspending the constitution, you know…

  8. 8.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 2:46 pm

    @H.E.Wolf: I’m with on the action front – we need to focus on what we can do.

    Just to state where I’m coming from with this post:

    I think there’s a lot of good information in those two videos and in the articles, and I believe that being well-informed about the details can help us influence folks we come into contact with.

    And yes, very excited that we hit the $25,000 mark in the thermometer yesterday!  With the $5k check the was sent by an angel, that means we reached $30k, and $30k was the match limit.

    So $60,000 for the Native vote in Montana!

    edit: Since we sometimes surpass our goal, I have gotten smart enough to ask – when an eXternal match has been found – might they be wiling to match up to $30k if we can raise that much?   (who says old dogs can’t learn new tricks?)

  9. 9.

    H.E.Wolf

    December 10, 2023 at 2:48 pm

    @gene108: ​I think if Donald Trump wins in 2024, it will create a real problem for Republicans going into the 2028 election. Do they amend the Constitution to let Trump seek a third term (or fourth*) term or do they standup to him for the sake of their own ambition?

     Electoral Vote blog has a response to that question: first answer in their weekly Q&A post yesterday. https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2023/Items/Dec09-1.html

    An excerpt: “pro-democracy forces would be enormous—the 80 million or so people who voted Democratic in the last election, the countless tens of millions who didn’t vote but who don’t want a dictator, the Republicans who are OK with Trump but only if he’s legally in office, etc.”

    (Note for history nerds: one of the 2 writers is a history professor, and there’s a passing allusion to the fall of the British Raj in the above answer’s final paragraph.)

  10. 10.

    H.E.Wolf

    December 10, 2023 at 2:57 pm

    @WaterGirl: ​I’m with [you] on the action front – we need to focus on what we can do.

    Just to state where I’m coming from with this post:

    I think there’s a lot of good information in those two videos and in the articles, and I believe that being well-informed about the details can help us influence folks we come into contact with.

    And yes, very excited that we hit the $25,000 mark in the thermometer yesterday! With the $5k check the was sent by an angel, that means we reached $30k, and $30k was the match limit.

    So $60,000 for Montana!

    edit: Since we sometimes surpass our goal, I have gotten smart enough to ask – when an eternal match has been found – might they be wiling to match up to $30k if we can raise that much?

     Absolutely – I’m not criticizing – and I think the warnings are appropriate.

    Since I know I’d get paralyzed with dread if I spent a lot of time with those warnings, I just sidestep around the conversation and get right to throwing a sabot into the dictator-wannabes’ machinery. :-)

    Speaking of which, that is a mighty big shoe ($60K!!!) that you (and Balloon Juice) threw into the works for Montana! Congratulations on having the smarts to ask for extra matching….

  11. 11.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 2:57 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    And yes, very excited that we hit the $25,000 mark in the thermometer yesterday!  With the $5k check the was sent by an angel, that means we reached $30k, and $30k was the match limit.

    So $60,000 for Montana!

    That’s a BFD!!

    This is the good news: we CAN make a difference.  Hell, we have done so in the past, and we will again.

    We know what the stakes are here, and it does seem to be gradually slipping into MSM awareness of just what a Trump win next year would mean.  So more and more normies will start getting the message.  We’ll see if that’s enough, but it’s up to us to do what we can to make it so.

  12. 12.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 3:01 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    when an eternal match has been found

    I’m certainly open to a match from outside the space-time continuum, but maybe we should stick with setting our sights on a match within our temporal universe.

    (I know what you meant – here’s your missing ‘x’.) ;-)

  13. 13.

    Juju

    December 10, 2023 at 3:04 pm

    I don’t know why people keep thinking that being a dictator was a joke for Trump. The man has no discernible sense of humor that I have noticed.  I think from time to time he tries to pretend he has a sense of humor, and that’s good enough for the droolers, but I’ve never heard or read anything he’s called a joke funny.

  14. 14.

    RandomMonster

    December 10, 2023 at 3:04 pm

    @gene108: I think if Donald Trump wins in 2024, it will create a real problem for Republicans going into the 2028 election.

    It won’t create a problem for them at all. At the first whiff of permanent power, they will suddenly find that the founding fathers had modeled the executive on Julius Ceasar all along.

  15. 15.

    Another Scott

    December 10, 2023 at 3:07 pm

    Biden invites Zelenskyy to the White House on Tuesday.

    Good, good.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  16. 16.

    RandomMonster

    December 10, 2023 at 3:09 pm

    @Juju: I’ve never heard or read anything he’s called a joke funny

    His only idea of humor is sadistically mocking rivals and ridiculing the weak.

  17. 17.

    Mike S

    December 10, 2023 at 3:12 pm

    Republicans want a dictator and are too stupid to understand what happens with dictators. They’ve even watched hair furor turn on his sycophants for the slightest deviation but still think it would he great to have him as our very own dictator.

  18. 18.

    japa21

    December 10, 2023 at 3:13 pm

    @Another Scott: One wonders if there will be an announcement of some kind.  Hope is not a strategy (as Adam frequently reminds us) but hope is a necessary precondition for success.

  19. 19.

    Alison Rose

    December 10, 2023 at 3:14 pm

    @Another Scott: I hope he asks him what he said to Orban in this clip, because I am itching to know.

  20. 20.

    gene108

    December 10, 2023 at 3:15 pm

    @Timill:

    What 2028 election? A national emergency will require suspending the constitution, you know…

    One vibe I get from Congressional Republican J6 conspirators is that if J6 worked, Trump would still need Congress because reasons.

    I think a lot of Republicans labor under the delusion that if Trump is “dictator for a day”, the next day things will be back to normal and they’d still have political power that was not 100% dependent on Trump’s favor.

  21. 21.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 3:15 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: I did a skim through of the MSM morning shows –  and TIFG’s threat to be a dictator seemed to be the top story. Even caught Bolton warning it would NOT be a “for the first day only” promise TIFG is now saying.

    Now, as long as it doesn’t fall into the old news dumpster in two days…

  22. 22.

    cmorenc

    December 10, 2023 at 3:17 pm

    Anyone notice the uncanny resemblance of house speaker mike johnson and stephen colbert’s parody of a RW nutjob politician?  Which colbert created way before johnson was much known outside his home area around Bugfuck, La.

  23. 23.

    John Revolta

    December 10, 2023 at 3:19 pm

    @Timill:

    What 2028 election?

    Oh, we’ll have an election. If Trump gets in next year, the 2028 election will be modeled on the one coming up in Russia in a few months. TFG will even have first-hand advice on how to run it!

  24. 24.

    MattF

    December 10, 2023 at 3:21 pm

    The guy who kept a book of Hitler’s speeches under his pillow won’t be a dictator. So, yeah, lying liars will lie.

    Here’s an odd fact: ever hear of Grover Furr? He’s the guy who went through Stephen Kotkin’s biography of Stalin, line-by-line, and disproved each and every one of the mean things Kotkin wrote about Stalin. Like, e.g., those defendants in the show trials of the thirties were all guilty and  got what was coming to them. Et cetera.  Lying is what they do, not joking.

  25. 25.

    Mike S

    December 10, 2023 at 3:21 pm

    BTW I think one of the biggest misses by the democratic party is the way they’ve let FOX news off the hook. Adds should have been run everywhere showing how Hannity and the rest were demanding that they continue to lie to the viewers and fox’s own lawyers were calling their viewers ‘people without reason.’ Ads should have been placed in every local avail in every city.

  26. 26.

    JoyceH

    December 10, 2023 at 3:23 pm

    Of course we’re all agreed that Trump wouldn’t be only a one-day dictator. But his ‘campaign promise’ only exposes his profound ignorance of politics and just reality in general. His day one wish list is just popular buzz words, but do even his most drooling supporters believe that closing the border and vastly expanding drilling is something that can be done in one day?

    Reminds me of a little-noticed Trump story from his tenure – he told NASA he wanted them to go to Mars – BEFORE election day. The idea that even if we had the equipment and trained personnel, it, uh, TAKES A WHILE to get to Mars seemed to escape him, he seemed to think they could do it if they just tried hard enough.

  27. 27.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 3:24 pm

    @Another Scott: Sadly, Johnson won’t invite Zelenskyy to speak to Congress.☹️😡

  28. 28.

    trollhattan

    December 10, 2023 at 3:25 pm

    Minnesota is havin’ a contest to design a new state flag, donchano? Hot dish has a lot goin’ for it but the big mosquito seems really true. Oh, I just don’t know! Think I’ll have a pop.

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/11/08/minnesota-state-flag-public-submissions-revealed

  29. 29.

    trollhattan

    December 10, 2023 at 3:26 pm

    @Jackie: Sadly Johnson should be his actual name.

  30. 30.

    RAM

    December 10, 2023 at 3:27 pm

    Other than giving people racist and otherwise offensive–and childish–nicknames, Trump has no discernible sense of humor–and never has had.

  31. 31.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 3:28 pm

    @cmorenc: I noticed this from the get go. Back in the days when the GQP truly thought Colbert was one of them!

  32. 32.

    trollhattan

    December 10, 2023 at 3:29 pm

    @cmorenc: ​
    I find him a dead ringer for John Doolittle, R congressman in my back yard who left congress over a scandal back when Republicans still did that.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/John_Doolittle.jpg

  33. 33.

    cmorenc

    December 10, 2023 at 3:30 pm

    @Juju: among the things Trump and sons are doing to try to show a sense of “regular guy” humor is the recent appearance of several “back off” golf videos on youtube in which other members of a foursome crack jokes about whichever player is about to hit their tee shot, trying to distract them.  The “Back off” meme wasn’t created by Trump’s entourage – but interesting that now they choose to post their own “back off” videos to youtube.

  34. 34.

    Lapassionara

    December 10, 2023 at 3:33 pm

    @hrprogressive: I’m still stunned that more alarms weren’t raised before the 2016 election. I’m sure the intelligence community knew that he would be cavalier with our top secret information, and that his fondness for Putin presented a national security threat. His business history was one of failure after failure. That the Republican Party accepted him into their ranks and pulled behind him when he won their primary proves that they do not have the country’s best interests at heart.

  35. 35.

    Hob

    December 10, 2023 at 3:36 pm

    @JoyceH: Reminds me of a little-noticed Trump story from his tenure – he told NASA he wanted them to go to Mars – BEFORE election day

     If so, I completely missed that particular piece of nonsense – not a surprise since he came out with fresh nonsense about NASA regularly. What I remember is that he made a big deal about pushing for a Moon mission by the early 2020s, till one day near the end of his term when the weevil inside his brain rolled over in its sleep and he suddenly announced that NASA shouldn’t be doing any of this Moon stuff and should be going to Mars instead. Which of course he addressed by publicly chiding them on Twitter, as if instead of being the head of the federal government he was a passive-aggressive parent telling everyone at the table to tell the other parent to pass the salt.

  36. 36.

    Danielx

    December 10, 2023 at 3:38 pm

    Who was it said – when somebody tells you who they are, believe them.

  37. 37.

    JWR

    December 10, 2023 at 3:38 pm

    @Juju:

    I don’t know why people keep thinking that being a dictator was a joke for Trump.

    Because they have Big Brained creepazoids like David Brooks telling them that’s all it was: a joke. Plus they’re stupid, but you knew that. ;)

    BTW, link is to Youtube.

  38. 38.

    Scout211

    December 10, 2023 at 3:43 pm

    Politico  (I know, I know) has a gossip news article up, describing last night’s “soirée” for rich donors.  I guess he chose that venue to defend his dictator statements.

    I had to laugh at the first paragraph:

    NEW YORK — The chairman of an Austrian political party founded by ex-Nazis, the conservative Twitter star behind the anti-trans Bud Light backlash and former President Donald Trump all walked into a bar.

    Seriously.

    Yeah, that’s how it started.

    On Saturday night in Manhattan, amid butler-delivered bellinis, sequined ball gowns and a five-course French service meal, characters from all corners of the Republican Party’s MAGA faction gathered for “a night of dinner, drinking, and love of country.”

    Trump, the New York Young Republican Club’s 111th Annual Gala Keynote speaker, delivered.

    “We want to liberate America because we’re in a country that’s in a lot of pain right now, a lot of hurt,” Trump told the crowd, during his 80-minute long speech. “This campaign is on a righteous crusade to rescue our nation from a very corrupt political class.”

    He went on the reiterate his statement about being a dictator on (only) day one, and this:

    The night’s more than 35 honored guests included the former president’s adviser Steve Bannon, Trump defense lawyer Alina Habba, former New York Mayor Rudy Guliani and members of Congress Paul Gosar (R-Ariz.), Mike Collins (R-Ga.) and Cory Mills (R-Fla.). Right wing Twitter star Rogan O’Handley, who helped popularize the anti-trans boycott of Bud Light, and Harald Vilimsky, the secretary-general of Austria’s Euroskeptic Freedom Party, a party founded by former Nazis, were also honored guests.

    This year’s Master of Ceremonies was Alex Stein, a man perhaps best known for catcalling Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on the Capitol steps. Tickets to the event, open to the public, ranged from $699 to $30,000.

    ETA: typos and clarity

  39. 39.

    Brachiator

    December 10, 2023 at 3:45 pm

    Let me say upfront that I absolutely believe that Trump will lose if he is the GOP candidate in 2024.

    But he knows how to play to his base.

    “Except on Day One,” he replied, to half-hearted cheers and laughs from the friendly audience. The former president seemed to find the whole thing amusing. “This guy, he says, ‘You’re not going to be a dictator, are you?’” Trump joked to the crowd, motioning at Hannity. “I said, ‘No, no, no, other than Day One.’ We’re closing the border. And we’re drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I’m not a dictator.”

    Trump is mentally deranged. But despite his legal woes, he stays on message. He keeps coming back to his early stupid promises to keep Muslims, Hispanics and undeserving nonwhites out of the country, and to supercharge the economy with cheap oil.

    Trump lacks the intelligence and mental discipline to be an effective autocrat. But he would be a hell of an agent of chaos, spending all his time going after his enemies.

    His base is certain that he would never come after them, and they are probably right. That Republicans would unleash a reign of terror against millions of people who are not the right kind of American is just fine with the MAGA crowd.

  40. 40.

    AWOL

    December 10, 2023 at 3:49 pm

    @gene108: If he wins in 2024, the 2028 “election” will be predetermined.

  41. 41.

    trollhattan

    December 10, 2023 at 3:49 pm

    @JWR: Brooks.

    How long until his article predicting Trump’s “pivot to the moderate center”?

  42. 42.

    Frank Wilhoit

    December 10, 2023 at 3:50 pm

    Much the foolishest reaction I have seen was Ke’m saying, yeah, maybe he meant it when he said it, but he saw how bad it flopped, so he’ll drop it.

    I had been taking Joe Manchin as the gold standard of stupidity, but this actually goes farther.

  43. 43.

    MikefromArlington

    December 10, 2023 at 3:54 pm

    As if Trump is like a light switch and can just turn off his fascist tendencies.

  44. 44.

    Memory Pallas

    December 10, 2023 at 3:57 pm

    @Another Scott: ​
      Maybe Biden can send Zelenskyy home with a little “care package.”

  45. 45.

    Marcopolo

    December 10, 2023 at 4:00 pm

    A pet peeve of mine but when you hear anyone say we need to “drill, drill, drill” or complain about US oil production please tell them to stfu, that the US is currently producing an all time record amount of oil…under Joe “dark brandon” Biden.  Personally, I’d prefer to keep it in the ground (forever, probably) but saying we aren’t producing cause of a D admin is just another lie.

    U.S. crude oil production set a record for the second month running in September, highlighting the challenge to Saudi Arabia and its OPEC⁺ partners as they cut their own production to boost prices.

    from Reuters

  46. 46.

    cmorenc

    December 10, 2023 at 4:04 pm

    @Frank Wilhoit: who the hell is K’em?  Is the reference to some RW hip-hop star or the deal leader of N Korea?  If the latter, the context you supplied wasn’t helpful toward a correct guess.

     

  47. 47.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:08 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: I will have to seriously step up my game if we are going to be able to score ETERNAL matches!

  48. 48.

    JWR

    December 10, 2023 at 4:09 pm

    @trollhattan: I like the one with the hungry duck beaming the delicious fish aboard.

  49. 49.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:11 pm

    @Another Scott: I wonder if Biden and Zelenskyy could pop over to the House and the Senate for a meet and greet.  Surely the President is always welcome?

  50. 50.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 4:11 pm

    Trump chickened out.

    In a rambling, all-caps statement posted on Truth Social, Donald Trump says he has changed his mind about testifying tomorrow at his civil fraud trial.

    Here’s a link you can click on:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/reversal-donald-trump-says-will-not-testify-defense-new-york-fraud-tri-rcna128749

  51. 51.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:11 pm

    @Mike S: in a dictatorship, dictator owns you.  They must think it’s the other way around.

    “It’s okay, he’s OUR dictator.”  (leopards, faces)

  52. 52.

    Another Scott

    December 10, 2023 at 4:13 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Hehe.

    Gif

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  53. 53.

    Geminid

    December 10, 2023 at 4:16 pm

    @trollhattan: I liked the contest New Jersey had a few years ago, for a new State Motto. Someone came up with:

    “New Jersey. Gotta problem with that?”

  54. 54.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 4:17 pm

    Hmmmm.

    The Heritage Foundation (who are running Project 2025) and Hungarian autocrat Viktor Orban’s team are meeting tomorrow to strategize ending aid to Ukraine. This was always the end-game. Remember Speaker Johnson’s Paris conference last month? Orban’s policy advisor was there. 1/

  55. 55.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:17 pm

    @Jackie: I think I know what that “change of heart” is about.

    Trump was banking on the gag order either still being “stayed” or having been struck down in the appeal, so on the day of his testimony it was going to be Trump’s big moment in the spotlight where he could trash everyone and get extra special coverage because he was saying it while testifying.

    edit: sorry ELATED that that didn’t work out for him.

  56. 56.

    Soprano2

    December 10, 2023 at 4:24 pm

    @gene108: What they want is what Hungary has – elections in name only so they can say “What are you complaining about, we had elections and we won” – even though the deck was so stacked that was the only possible outcome.

  57. 57.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 4:24 pm

    @WaterGirl: “So $60,000 for the Native vote in Montana!”

    That is exciting. Glad I was able to help.

  58. 58.

    Ruckus

    December 10, 2023 at 4:24 pm

    @Mike S:

    It seems to me that a number of people think that money is the ultimate power. SFB thinks that, which is why he’s always claimed to be worth far more than he is. Look at him. Look at his character – or lack thereof. Look at what he wants. Look at what he would do to get that. He doesn’t understand much but he does understand that he could sell this country out for a lot. And he seems to know those people. Has met them, likely has at least hinted that he’d take their money. Actually he’d likely take anyone’s money if it was enough. And he is at least relatively cheap enough that many could buy him for what goes for couch change in their minds. And none of them that would buy him are actual, real friends of this country.

  59. 59.

    Scout211

    December 10, 2023 at 4:28 pm

    @WaterGirl: Trump was banking on the gag order either still being “stayed” or having been struck down in the appeal

    Also the Appellate ruling on the “widespread fraud” decision by Engoron was not in his favor.

    His attempt to make Engoron into a Trump hater went down the Apellate drain.

  60. 60.

    teezyskeezy

    December 10, 2023 at 4:32 pm

    @JoyceH: If/when Trump wins again, he’ll probably prematurely force some astronauts into an elon mars ship under duress and when they all inevitably die on launch he’ll lie and say they actually made it and are building a big beautiful Trump hotel on mars and everyone should go and then he’ll start shipping us liberals off to mars (ie, out an airlock) and telling everyone back home how wonderful we are doing and have gone totally maga because it’s so great and beautiful there.

  61. 61.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:39 pm

    @prostratedragon: I know it’s a cliche, but it really does take a village.

  62. 62.

    oldgold

    December 10, 2023 at 4:40 pm

    @WaterGirl:  No. The gag order would have very little, if anything, to do with his testimony in Court.

    The reason he is not testifying is to avoid the State’s cross – examination,  which would have been withering

  63. 63.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:43 pm

    @Scout211: Absolutely!  Trump got 3 major slap-downs by courts within a day or two.

    Gag order back on.
    No immunity for civil cases.
    No immunity for criminal cases.

    Plus the bonus statement from the appeals court that the Jan 6 case would be completed well before the November election.

    Trump wanted to “testify” by which I mean attack every possible person, and get the extra coverage because he was “testifying”.

    I wonder if reality is starting to set in for him.

  64. 64.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 4:44 pm

    Both like the Ethan Hawke character in SpaceX Gattaca, only not sympathetic.

  65. 65.

    Frank Wilhoit

    December 10, 2023 at 4:45 pm

    @cmorenc: ​
      (checked to see whether anyone had jumped in to help me out). Sound it out. Remember that the 7-11 convenience stores are pronounced “se’m-le’m”. In other words, Kevin McCarthy.

  66. 66.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:46 pm

    @oldgold: Yes, but Trump knew that would be true when he announced that he would testify.

    So it may be that Trump thinks he won points from his followers just for saying he would testify – maybe half of them are paying so little attention to reality, so if he said he would, that believe that he would and will continue believe that he did.

    But I stand by my original statement.  I think the fact that the gag order is back in place is a big part of why it’s not worth it to him to testify.

  67. 67.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 4:46 pm

    @prostratedragon:

    The Heritage Foundation (who are running Project 2025) and Hungarian autocrat Viktor Orban’s team are meeting tomorrow to strategize ending aid to Ukraine. This was always the end-game.

    “Heritage Foundation.” As in, our ‘heritage’ of letting the Russkis walk all over us.

    Seriously, someone needs to ask them what part of our heritage that’s about – 1930s isolationism, perhaps?

  68. 68.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 4:47 pm

    @WaterGirl: I prefer my version of chickening out!😉

    But, you’re correct.

  69. 69.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 4:48 pm

    @prostratedragon:  That’s a reply to trollhattan @32.

  70. 70.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 4:49 pm

    As I press POST COMMENT, Jack Smith’s response – to Trump’s ridiculously ballsy and disrespectful response to Judge Chutkan’s ruling – is due in 10 minutes.  (5pm Eastern on Sunday 12/10)

    I bet it will be a doozy!

  71. 71.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 4:53 pm

    @Jackie: “Mr. Trump, we’ve run though this testimony 8 times now and every time you’ve stated ‘When I’m dictator, I’ll make sure nothing like this could ever happen again’ and we don’t think that’s going to help your case here. I think should should cancel your testimony.”

  72. 72.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 4:56 pm

    @Frank Wilhoit:

    Sound it out. Remember that the 7-11 convenience stores are pronounced “se’m-le’m”. In other words, Kevin McCarthy.

    Around here, convenience stores at practically every gas station drove out the 7-11’s decades ago.  And in my white suburb, they were pronounced “seven-eleven” when we still had them.

    I’ll have to ask my teenage son if he knows what a 7-11 is.

  73. 73.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 4:57 pm

    @WaterGirl: RawStory has TIFG’s epic all CAPS multiple page rant(s) re his decision to not take the stand tomorrow. He had to pop at least one vein while furiously typing!

    https://www.rawstory.com/trump-fraud-testimony-2666514619/

  74. 74.

    stinger

    December 10, 2023 at 4:58 pm

    @JWR: @trollhattan:

    If university presidents get firedhave to resign for saying that political speech must be considered in context, why doesn’t Brooks get firedhave to resign for claiming that Trump’s admission that he will be a dictator is a joke? Same thing, only worse.

  75. 75.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 5:00 pm

    @Jackie:

    The Man Has A Point (Open Thread)

  76. 76.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 5:03 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:  We still have them in Chicago, and you can even get DoorDash etc. from them. No idea how well they’re really doing though.

  77. 77.

    cain

    December 10, 2023 at 5:06 pm

    @Mike S: Maybe like how some think they’ll be rich, they think they’ll get to be a dictator too?

    Ultimately, a dictator doesn’t very long and certainly not in this country where everyone is very wedded to individualism and american exceptionalism – we are very entitled people.

  78. 78.

    cain

    December 10, 2023 at 5:07 pm

    @Mike S:

    BTW I think one of the biggest misses by the democratic party is the way they’ve let FOX news off the hook. Adds should have been run everywhere showing how Hannity and the rest were demanding that they continue to lie to the viewers and fox’s own lawyers were calling their viewers ‘people without reason.’ Ads should have been placed in every local avail in every city.

    Remember when Obama wanted to kick out Fox News from press briefings? Every corporate news outlet went balls to walls against him. The other networks see Fox News as one of them. Mostly because across all the networks – it is still the same type  goddam assholes running the news.

  79. 79.

    dmsilev

    December 10, 2023 at 5:13 pm

    @WaterGirl: God, I hope nobody is training an AI model using his ‘writings’.

  80. 80.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 5:15 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:
    In addition to the White House,

    Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Republican Leader Mitch McConnell have invited President Zelenskyy to speak at an all Senators meeting on Tuesday morning. The meeting will be in the Mansfield room at 9AM on Tuesday, December 12.

  81. 81.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 5:16 pm

    That’s December 12.

  82. 82.

    skerry

    December 10, 2023 at 5:20 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: We still have 7-11s up here in Howard County.

  83. 83.

    JWR

    December 10, 2023 at 5:22 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    maybe half of them are paying so little attention to reality,

    Talk about paying very little attention to reality. I was just channel surfing and came across some Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders training show, and wow! Some, (not all), of those young women were so out to lunch! They were going thru an interview process, and one of them couldn’t name our two major political parties, (she remembered the Dems). Another answered “Roger Goodell” when asked to name the Commander in Chief, (it was B.O.). Bring back Civics education, stat!

  84. 84.

    Aziz, light!

    December 10, 2023 at 5:25 pm

    @Marcopolo: A pet peeve of mine but when you hear anyone say we need to “drill, drill, drill” or complain about US oil production please tell them to stfu, that the US is currently producing an all time record amount of oil…under Joe “dark brandon” Biden.

    “Drill, drill, drill …” is code for “get rid of all environmental regulation.”

  85. 85.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)

    December 10, 2023 at 5:26 pm

    @gene108: For an example of how that could work out from history see the Rump Parliament, which was the remainder of the Long Parliament that was cool with beheading King Charles I.
    The Rump Parliament was succeeded by three successive parliaments during Cromwell’s Protectorate that tended to be sent home as soon as they failed to deliver what Cromwell wanted.

    (When talking about the English Civil War and the efforts to protect England from the doctrine of Divine Right, it’s important to remember the anti-Royalist side eventually devolved into a military dictatorship. Which is not to say that the Divine Right of Kings isn’t a dreadful concept or that Charles was an innocent little baa-lamb who didn’t deserve the trouble he brought down upon his own head, but that the Law of Unforeseen Consequences sucks.)

  86. 86.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 5:27 pm

    @skerry: Shit, we have a 7-11 in Irvine.

    Favorite 7-11 fact: a car crashes into a 7-11 in the US on average once a day.

  87. 87.

    schrodingers_cat

    December 10, 2023 at 5:27 pm

    Dems are not bad at messaging. Majority of white people don’t want to hear their message. Because D voting groups like Black people, Jewish people, immigrants seem to have no problem hearing the Dem message.

  88. 88.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 5:28 pm

    Aaaaand so, UWisc is moving to curtail diversity hiring. Btw, I got that from Sherrilyn Ifill on threads. Seems the reinstatement of Jones might be too much for her, based on an extensive xitter thread.

  89. 89.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    December 10, 2023 at 5:32 pm

    Before doom glooming to much, remember Trump’s problem has always been he is a lazy asshole.  He wants to be dictator as long as someone does the the work involved.  Remember this is the guy who tried to fix an election after losing it.

  90. 90.

    Ohio Mom

    December 10, 2023 at 5:32 pm

    @cmorenc: Oh yes, that was my first thought upon becoming acquainted with the new speaker. Colbert made fun of the similarity immediately in his monologue.

    On another note, I guess I should be at least a little thankful that right-wingers like Robert Kagan and Liz Chaney are sounding the alarm but really, they helped make the Republican Party what it is.

  91. 91.

    MomSense

    December 10, 2023 at 5:44 pm

    Love Kenny.  He and Reecie (black woman views) are two of my favorite political commentators.

  92. 92.

    cain

    December 10, 2023 at 5:45 pm

    @prostratedragon: JFC – that is disheartening – I hope that we can take control of the legislature.

    I think one thing we have all learned is that retaining local legislature control is going to be really important. A lot of folks have been only fixated at the federal level especially during the Obama years.

  93. 93.

    Another Scott

    December 10, 2023 at 5:46 pm

    Meanwhile, … Reuters.com:

    The challenges are huge. Argentina’s net foreign currency reserves are estimated at $10 billion in the red, annual inflation is 143% and rising, a recession is around the corner and capital controls skew the exchange rate.

    Argentina has gone through boom-bust cycles for decades with money printing to fund regular deficits stoking inflation and weakening the peso. That has worsened in recent years as reserves have dwindled with a major drought earlier this year hitting main cash crops soy and corn.

    If not tamed, inflation could reach 15,000% annually, Milei warned in his speech, pledging to “fight tooth and nail” to eradicate it. He also warned about a $100 billion debt “bomb”.

    The major grains exporter needs to revamp a creaking $44 billion loan program with the International Monetary Fund (IMF), while Milei needs to navigate ties with important trade partners China and Brazil, whom he criticized during the campaign.

    Milei takes over from unpopular outgoing center-left President Fernandez, but will need to negotiate with rivals as his libertarian coalition only has a small bloc in Congress. He has allied with the main conservative grouping.

    [image]

    That has already had an impact. He has moderated his tone in the last few weeks, packed his first Cabinet with mainstream conservatives rather than ideological libertarian allies, and on Sunday he did not mention dollarization in his speeches.

    Argentina will also remain part of the Paris Agreement on climate change, Milei’s new climate diplomat told Reuters on Sunday, despite his past comments that global warming is a hoax.

    The moderate tilt has buoyed markets and reassured voters.

    “I think he will do well. For legal and Congressional reasons he’ll end up having to focus on more coherent things,” said Laura Soto, 35, a restaurant employee in Buenos Aires.

    She said some more radical social ideas he had talked about during the campaign were also unlikely to happen, including easing regulation on guns and reopening the debate on abortion, which was legalized in Argentina three years ago.

    We’ll see what happens, but him turning down the “move fast and break things” rhetoric is probably a good sign.

    (Orban and Zelenskyy were in Argentina for his inauguration.)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  94. 94.

    Yarrow

    December 10, 2023 at 5:53 pm

    @japa21:

    hope is a necessary precondition for success.

    No it isn’t. Hope is not relevant to success.

  95. 95.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 5:54 pm

    @Another Scott:

    Wow, the Argentina economy is almost as bad as the US economy.

    /feelings

  96. 96.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 5:55 pm

    @prostratedragon: The Senate is going to make Johnson look small if he doesn’t invite Zelenskyy to the House chambers.

  97. 97.

    sab

    December 10, 2023 at 6:00 pm

    @cmorenc: Colbert being a South Carolina natve, I’m sure he’s familiar with the type.

    Not disparaging the South, since Ohio has managed to cough up Gym Jordan repeatedly, and long before that Traficant.

  98. 98.

    Tony Jay

    December 10, 2023 at 6:10 pm

    “When someone shows you who they are, believe them laugh and tell everyone not be be so serious, they’re just joking.”

    Tell you what, Mister Meedyamofo. No. Let’s not do that. That’s a stupid idea.

    When a steaming dump of multi-indicted criminality with one absolutely disastrous Presidency already in the tank tells you they plan to destroy your country in pursuit of the power to punish their enemies and reign unchallenged for the rest of their unnatural shame of a life, don’t just believe them, fucking destroy them. Burn them down to the bone and hang their mottled hide on the Washington Monument for the whole wide world to see.

      “He was joking”? Fuck right off.  

  99. 99.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 6:12 pm

    @cain: UWisc never recovered from Walkers tenure. We looted the place pretty hard. Diversity hiring had a direct benefit on our institution in terms of grants and student demand, so they’re cutting off their path to recovery.

  100. 100.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 6:19 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: This is a dangerous attitude. Latinos are not as loyal to the Democratic Party as you seem to believe.

    Put another way, if you support from a demographic is that they are fleeing the alternative, you have a VERY tenuous hold on that group. If the alternative change their approach, you have lost all control.

    This has been the warning by black women toward Democrats for as long as I can remember. And they don’t need to vote for the alternative, all they have to decide is that the alternative isn’t a huge threat and stay home. Democrats keep failing to address the issues being raised by their base of voters, and then keep being shocked that those voters didn’t show up when they needed.

    Democrats are absurdly risk adverse with their messaging. I mean, look at the GOP – they fucking go for it.

  101. 101.

    Spanky

    December 10, 2023 at 6:23 pm

    @Martin:

    Favorite 7-11 fact: a car crashes into a 7-11 in the US on average once a day.

    Shit, I’m staying out of THAT store.

  102. 102.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 6:23 pm

    @Martin:

    Donald Trump has already starting backing away from abortion restrictions.  The myth of GOP boldness is greatly exaggerated. They simply can get away with more offensive behavior than Dems can, for reasons both internal and external to the Dem party.

  103. 103.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 6:24 pm

    @prostratedragon: I don’t know what you mean by Dec 12.

    The government had until 5pm today 12/10 and then Trump’s attorneys get until 5 pm on Tuesday 12/12 for their response to the government.

    Or maybe Dec 12 was in reference to something else completely?

  104. 104.

    Matt McIrvin

    December 10, 2023 at 6:27 pm

    Surely by now everyone has been on the receiving end of the “Schrödinger’s Asshole” ploy, where whether you were joking or not is only determined after the fact by how somebody reacts.

  105. 105.

    Jackie

    December 10, 2023 at 6:29 pm

    @WaterGirl: He’s referring to Zelenskyy speaking to the Senate on the 12th.

  106. 106.

    schrodingers_cat

    December 10, 2023 at 6:30 pm

    @Martin: I did not explicitly mention Latinos as a demographic group in my example. When I say immigrants, I mean naturalized citizens. Not all immigrants are Latino and neither are all Latinos immigrant. Since you brought up Latinos

    These are the numbers from the 2022 midterms.

    60% Latino vote went to Ds in 2022

    41% White  vote went to Ds in 2022

    Ds win all demographics except one

    This goes beyond messaging.

  107. 107.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 6:33 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    We can only be on the receiving end of that ploy, because we’re not allowed to engage in it ourselves.

  108. 108.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 10, 2023 at 6:34 pm

    @Martin: Where did she say anything about Latinos?  You might want to check your assumptions.  Also, is emulating the GOP a path we want to start down?  I tend to doubt it.

  109. 109.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 6:36 pm

    @Yarrow: ​
     

    No it isn’t. Hope is not relevant to success.

    The absence of hope is known as ‘despair,’ and people in a state of despair tend not to succeed because they’ve given up.

  110. 110.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 6:39 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Actions are relevant to success, in the absence of luck. Whether the actor is hopeful or pessimistic is basically irrelevant.

    In a social context, however, hope and pessimism can both be contagious and affect others’ willingness to act.

  111. 111.

    Matt McIrvin

    December 10, 2023 at 6:40 pm

    @cain:

    Ultimately, a dictator doesn’t very long and certainly not in this country where everyone is very wedded to individualism and american exceptionalism – we are very entitled people.

    I don’t particularly want to test that assertion.

    I suspect that a lot of American individualism is bogus–most of us just want other people to be forced into the standard molds we chose. And the model that really prevailed for much of US history was more like a herrenvolk pseudo-democracy: democracy for some minority of people who got to be the little kings and rule over everyone else. That’s what they’re trying to get back.

  112. 112.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 6:42 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Agreed. They also want to cement Reaganomics, which they’ll do if Trump is able to take credit for Biden’s economic success.

  113. 113.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 6:45 pm

    @Jackie: Thank you!  I had company for a couple of hours, so now that I am catching up, i didn’t catch what that was in reference to.

  114. 114.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 6:46 pm

    @Spanky:

    Shit, I’m staying out of THAT store.

    Me too!

    Looks like we have a few in Calvert County (hopefully none of them is the one that gets crashed into once a day ;-), but the sign on the road says Shell or BP so since I never bought gas there, I never realized there was a 7-11 in back of the pumps.

    Speaking of our county, I don’t know how far north or south you are, but if you’re in the northern half of the county, there’s a great carry-out called Pinky’s on Route 2 just south of Mt. Harmony Road.  They do a mix of Southern, soul, and New Orleans food.  My wife and I have been getting food there for years, and love it.  Google ‘Pinky’s Eatery’ to find them.  They’re open Thursday through Sunday.

  115. 115.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 6:48 pm

    @Baud:

    Whether the actor is hopeful or pessimistic is basically irrelevant.

    I would say that someone who is hopeful is more likely to take action to get the result they want.  Pessimism isn’t exactly motivating.

  116. 116.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 10, 2023 at 6:48 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: In Wisconsin, it’s pronounced Kwik Trip.

  117. 117.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 6:54 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    As logical as that sounds, I’m not sure it’s true at the individual level.  Some pessimists act when they see threats, and some optimists don’t because they think everything will work out on their own.

    Empirically, it probably ends up a wash.

  118. 118.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 6:56 pm

    @Baud: ​
     

    You can be pessimistic and still have hope. The two are not contradictory. Being aware that your chances aren’t good doesn’t mean you’ve given up hope of succeeding.

    Despair is not the same as pessimism. Despair is “what’s the point of even trying?” Actions ARE relevant to success, but people who are despairing have little interest in acting.

  119. 119.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 6:56 pm

    @Baud: Oh, I’m not saying their messaging is always good, but it’s aggressive, where Democrats is passive. Republicans insisting that they aren’t going for a national abortion ban is aggressive, even if it’s a lie.

    Hasan Minaj said that Republican messaging captures the right emotions but the wrong information, where Democrats capture the right information but the wrong emotion. If voters are angry, Republicans reflect that anger – but assign it to immigrants or trans kids or whatever rather than the thing that’s really the problem. Democrats are afraid of that anger and make excuses for why voters shouldn’t be anger, rather than channeling it toward the causes for that anger.

    I argue that Democrats do that because Democrats aren’t interested in really tackling issues like inequality, because they don’t want to piss off the MOTU class because they may be less dependent on them than the GOP, but they’re still dependent on them. Again, why the fuck was Biden out there promoting a $100K truck? That vehicle doesn’t address a single goddamn thing that anyone is angry about. But it did make a lot of Democrats angry. It did that.

  120. 120.

    gene108

    December 10, 2023 at 6:59 pm

    @Martin:

    Democrats keep failing to address the issues being raised by their base of voters, and then keep being shocked that those voters didn’t show up when they needed.

    Democrats are absurdly risk adverse with their messaging. I mean, look at the GOP – they fucking go for it.

    GOP lies and don’t give a fuck, and their voters prefer being lied to than accepting the truth.

    Hard to compete messaging wise with “the Biden Crime family”, the 2020 election was rigged and full of fraud, etc. in terms of boldness.

    Also, no one really knows what’s happening with the voting habits of native Spanish speakers in the U.S. One thing Trump’s 2016 campaign greatly benefited from were rich tech billionaires like Peter Thiel helping to optimize micro targeting social media advertising to various demographics. Plus, the Trump campaign threw a lot of money at Facebook to get user data to build out their micro targeting social media strategy.

    One of the biggest problems facing Democrats are the lack of liberal or even center-left billionaires willing to set their money on fire to promote a liberal or center-left agenda, the conservative billionaires have gladly thrown money at the Republican Party and other conservative groups.

  121. 121.

    Spanky

    December 10, 2023 at 7:00 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: My wife has dietary issues, so I’ll be dining solo anytime I make a stop.

  122. 122.

    RevRick

    December 10, 2023 at 7:00 pm

    @Martin: You want a counter messaging to Trump and the Republicans? How about this:

    Me standing over my dad’s grave at Quantico:

    “This is the grave of a WW2 vet. My dad’s grave. There are 12 million graves like his scattered in cemeteries all across America. And over 405,000 were killed in the struggle to defeat fascism in Germany, Italy and Japan.

    Now, Donald Trump wants to invite the darkness of fascism into America and make himself dictator. If he gets his way, he will shit on the graves of all those who served in that epic struggle against it, and especially those who paid the ultimate price. A vote for Donald Trump is a vote to shit on their graves.”

  123. 123.

    Anyway

    December 10, 2023 at 7:00 pm

    I don’t look for any Dem messaging. I hear the R message loud and clear and it’s terrifying. That’s enough to prompt me to vote D.

  124. 124.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 7:01 pm

    @Martin:

    Republicans insisting that they aren’t going for a national abortion ban is aggressive

    Yeah, I don’t see that. If Dems abandoned one of their core long-standing principles like that, no one would call it aggressive messaging.

    And no one would say that doing so would be smart politics and look the other way because they know Dems are lying (wink, wink).

  125. 125.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 7:02 pm

    @Anyway:

    Messaging isn’t for us. It’s for the undedicated.

  126. 126.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 7:04 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I suspect that a lot of American individualism is bogus–most of us just want other people to be forced into the standard molds we chose. And the model that really prevailed for much of US history was more like a herrenvolk pseudo-democracy: democracy for some minority of people who got to be the little kings and rule over everyone else. That’s what they’re trying to get back.

    Walter Benjamin said:

    Fascism attempts to organize the newly proletarianized masses without affecting the property structure which the masses strive to eliminate. Fascism sees its salvation in giving these masses not their right, but instead a chance to express themselves. The masses have a right to change property relations; Fascism seeks to give them an expression while preserving property. The logical result of Fascism is the introduction of aesthetics into political life.

    Fascism doesn’t change the underlying economic structure but gives everyone permission to murder Jews or immigrants or whoever as an outlet for their underlying anger.

    So a fascist America would be one where the liberty of towing your boat to the lake is retained, but if there’s a black guy there holding up traffic, you’re free to murder him. And the trade-off for that expression is you lose the ability to vote.

    A lot of suffragettes joined fascist causes because more than a few of them were incensed that they couldn’t vote but black men could. They were willing to give up the vote they fought so hard for so long as black men also lost it, and they could reclaim their superiority over them.

  127. 127.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 10, 2023 at 7:07 pm

    @hrprogressive:

    Let’s be very clear that people were warning about this before the 2016 election, much less 2020, or 2024.

    Plenty of commentators, experts, and so on, were derided as “alarmist” at the time.

    Sounds like every single one of them was absolutely correct.

    Less than 12 months before the 2024 election is way too long for the mainstream media to have started pointing out how dangerous this is, but while the best time would have been all the way back in 2015, the next best time is right now, while we still have a chance to stop him.

    Yes. All of this.

    I guess 8 years later is better than never to admit to themselves that Dump is a fucking fascist who sucks dictator asshole.

  128. 128.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 7:07 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Despair is not the same as pessimism. Despair is “what’s the point of even trying?” Actions ARE relevant to success, but people who are despairing have little interest in acting.

    You are definitely right about that.

  129. 129.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 7:07 pm

    @Spanky: ​
     

    My wife has dietary issues, so I’ll be dining solo anytime I make a stop.

    Sorry to hear that – I know how difficult that sort of thing can be to deal with.

    JFTR, there is some seating there, but it’s really a place where you call in an order, then drive over, pick it up, and take it home. Whether you’d want to do that probably depends on whether your wife minds that you’re eating food in front of her that she’d like to eat but can’t.

  130. 130.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 7:09 pm

    @Martin: Agree with the description from Hasan Ninaj.

    Hard disagree, though, with this.  I think most Dems, and particularly Joe Biden, absolutely want to tackle issues like inequality.

    I argue that Democrats do that because Democrats aren’t interested in really tackling issues like inequality, because they don’t want to piss off the MOTU class because they may be less dependent on them than the GOP, but they’re still dependent on them.

  131. 131.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 7:10 pm

    @RevRick: I would help fund that ad!

  132. 132.

    Dan B

    December 10, 2023 at 7:10 pm

    @lowtechcyclist: I don’t believe the MSM or social media has begun to comprehend how many of them would be shut down, harassed by Orcs, or be forced to submit to a propaganda board.  Journalists are already targets of TIFG and his minions.  Is it necessary for us to connect the dots for them? *

     

    *Answer is YES

     

    The other thrill would be the end of federal funding for blue states.  Cutting, or eliminating Social Security and other similar programs that assist the underprivileged.

  133. 133.

    Baud

    December 10, 2023 at 7:11 pm

    Biden should propose massive tax cut.  It would be popular message.

  134. 134.

    lowtechcyclist

    December 10, 2023 at 7:14 pm

    @WaterGirl: ​
     

    @RevRick: I would help fund that ad!

    Me too!

  135. 135.

    Dan B

    December 10, 2023 at 7:17 pm

    @RandomMonster: My partner’s brother and his SIL have that same sadistic sense of humor.  They laugh at our discomfort.  It makes for Christmas ‘merriment’.  /s. Which I no longer attend.

    I keep telling my partner that whenever I think of them I start to swear out loud, usually to an empty room.

  136. 136.

    gene108

    December 10, 2023 at 7:19 pm

    @Martin:

    Democrats are afraid of that anger and make excuses for why voters shouldn’t be anger, rather than channeling it toward the causes for that anger.

    The number of people on this blog bitching about how burned out they felt after being angry all the time after a couple years of president Trump was substantial. Violent confrontational rage monkeys are not really part of the Democrat’s coalition. The Dem base is made up of women and minorities, who traditionally have gotten their teeth kicked in when they give into stoking their anger.

    Also, the billionaire gap is a real problem with Democrats when it comes to messaging. Lord, if there were billionaires willing to set their money on fire to promote Democratic shills/attack dogs the way fuck nuggets like Charlie Kirk, Ben Shapiro, Fox News, the Heritage Foundation, etc. are backed by conservative billionaires, Democrats would have a much better ability to reach people.

    The billionaire funded hack gap is real and not being addressed.

  137. 137.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 7:19 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Latino voters backed Obama and simultaneously voted to ban gay marriage in California. A lot of immigrants of all kinds like Republican policies, but dislike Republican scapegoating of them. In my community, the most conservative voters are Korean. We have a lot of conservative Vietnamese and Chinese lawmakers as well. I’ve had multiple Taiwanese Americans tell me off door knocking that they’d never vote for a Democrat after Carter sold out Taiwan.

    My argument is that people vote FOR things and people vote AGAINST things. If your base is reliant on voters voting against the GOP, you don’t have them. My argument for a long time has been that Democrats have a lot of voters that disagree with them on social issues and disagree with them on economic ones, but align with the Democrats because it’s literally suicidal to vote for the GOP. That’s a very tenuous state to maintain. Democrats have young people exclusively on social issues (which is why Israel/Gaza is so energizing for young people, and dangerous for Dems) and young people hate Democratic economic policies. Fortunately for Democrats, they hate Republican economic policies more.

    These trends have implications for volunteerism, donations, turnout, and loyalty. Thankfully Biden is pulling democrats at least a bit away from the neoliberal policies that Democrats have instinctively supported. It’s not enough, but it’s at least hopeful.

  138. 138.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 7:24 pm

    @WaterGirl: Then why was it set up so the only people who got a maximum EV rebate had to make at least $80K? This was an economic benefit that only applied to the upper half of the Democratic base – who didn’t need the benefit. It almost completely excluded the half of the voter base that needed the benefit.

    There are good ideas in the caucus. Warren’s wealth tax, for instance, and everyone is fucking terrifying of touching that one, even though nobody disagrees it’d work great. They know it’s effective policy, but they don’t believe they’ll get enough benefit from the majority of voters.

    Another data point – voter support for policy has no correlation for what policy gets passed, regardless of who is in charge of the government. The only correlation is between what the richest 10% of voters want in terms of policy. That’s also true when Democrats control all branches of government.

  139. 139.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 7:26 pm

    @Baud: Go ask the Democratic base what they think about universal basic income. The only distinction that has ever mattered is who gets the tax cut.

  140. 140.

    gene108

    December 10, 2023 at 7:26 pm

    @Dan B:

    It’s not just the media that’s blind, but a lot of people who think the rule of law will generally apply no matter who is in charge. Trump’s pretty clear he wants that to change, Republicans back him in it, and enough Republican voters are itching to implement “second amendment” solutions to their problems that a lot more people should be scared.

  141. 141.

    prostratedragon

    December 10, 2023 at 7:27 pm

    @WaterGirl: In the comment just before, I accidentally truncated the ate of Zelensky’s invitation to visit the Senate. It’s Dec 12, not Dec 1.

  142. 142.

    WaterGirl

    December 10, 2023 at 7:39 pm

    @prostratedragon: Got it! (I just added the 2 to your comment to avoid confusion.)  If that’s not okay, I can change it back.

  143. 143.

    RevRick

    December 10, 2023 at 7:39 pm

    @WaterGirl: Thank you for the vote of confidence

  144. 144.

    Bill Arnold

    December 10, 2023 at 7:40 pm

    @prostratedragon:
    Viktor Orban is an former bagman for the Russian mafia (Bratva) in Hungary.

  145. 145.

    Another Scott

    December 10, 2023 at 7:40 pm

    @Martin:

    Then why was it set up so the only people who got a maximum EV rebate had to make at least $80K?

    Eh?

    RewiringAmerica.org doesn’t show any minimum family income to get the $7500 credit on an EV. The credit ends if the family income is high enough.

    (I checked, $20k, $79k, $80k, $150k, $200k, $300k.)

    I’m not sure what you’re talking about here.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  146. 146.

    Dan B

    December 10, 2023 at 7:43 pm

    @prostratedragon: We’ve got a 7-11 down the hill from us.  It’s across the street from an ARCO discount gas station with convenience store.  The 7-11 lot is usually busy and the ARCO store is not.  The 7-11 seems to be a training stop for young guys from India.  I ask them where they’re from… in India… not what country they’re from.  They’re surprised I know something about their country of origin.

  147. 147.

    Quiltingfool

    December 10, 2023 at 7:51 pm

    I had a thought about the authoritarian (aka fascist) government Trump et al wants to install and how all the MAGA Republicans think that would be just peachy keen…If the Constitution is suspended, I’m going to assume that would include the 2nd Amendment, right?  So, do they think the Trump regime would in any way, shape or form, allow citizens to possess guns?

    I know the gun humpers THINK they would be allowed guns (and the “libs” would not), but if I were running a dictatorship I would make damn sure nobody had guns except for my enforcers.  And any standoff by folks wanting to keep their guns, well, here come the black helicopters and drones.  The Trump regime isn’t gonna give a shit about collateral damage.

    I’m probably really off the mark here, but imagine how the shit would hit the fan if the 2nd Amendment crowd thought that might happen under Trump…

  148. 148.

    Yarrow

    December 10, 2023 at 7:52 pm

    @lowtechcyclist:  Not engaging with hope is not despair. It’s just not wasting time with hope, which is a useless waste of energy. Hope is wishful thinking that does nothing but cause pain when the wishes don’t happen. Better to see with clear eyes where you stand.

    Being aware that your chances aren’t good doesn’t mean you’ve given up hope of succeeding.

    Sometimes you do things because they must be done and there’s no one else to do them. Will you succeed? Who fucking knows. Will you keep working at it because they must be done? Yes. Hope is utterly irrelevant to doing the required task.

  149. 149.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 7:56 pm

    Feeling like I want to transcribe that Jay Crowder fire.

    This shit is lit.

  150. 150.

    Denali5

    December 10, 2023 at 7:58 pm

    @Martin: Who were the suffragettes who supported fascism? I know they were very frustrated when Blacks did get the vote, but I did not know about the fascism end of it.

  151. 151.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 7:58 pm

    @Another Scott: The problem was that you needed to have sufficient tax liability in order to get the full credit. You couldn’t roll the credit forward if you didn’t have enough liability to offset. The IRA didn’t constrain it but other tax provisions did. They corrected for that in October so that starting next year low income buyers could get the full credit.

    This was pointed out to Congress before they passed it and didn’t put anything in place to guide the IRS to not do that. This is part of why I said this whole provision was a giveaway to the rich, and even with this provision fixed, it still is.

  152. 152.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 8:04 pm

    @Martin: Is it possible that maybe you just don’t know the details of the policy we’ve passed?

    Like, that folks making <80% of the median income WHEREVER THEY LIVE are eligible for a free heat pump, hot water heater, cooktop up to like 10K?

    And $4K off AT THE PONT OF PURCHASE off a used EV?

    Its really possible you don’t know these details, because the entire left online community totally didn’t notice, didn’t care, and didn’t manifest demand for implementation. Because the online left is fairly well to do and more interested in political entertainment than policy. And also that’s why this initiative has been slow-walked, and why, except for the used EV credit, it won’t be available until after the election. ON LEGISLATION WE PASSED 2 YEARS PRIOR!!!!! Because it was for the lower middle class and isn’t entertaining.

    That’s probably also why it passed. Because they knew people wouldn’t care enough to notice they killed it.

  153. 153.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 8:06 pm

    @Denali5: A lot of them backed the fascist movement in the US and UK in the runup to WWII, like the Christian Front. The suffrage movement had a very strong Christian component to it, many of the women in the movement wanted the vote so they could vote for more Christian policies which the fascist movement in the US directly built off of.

  154. 154.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 8:11 pm

    @Denali5: Fascism is just a word.

    Yes, the suffragette movement was complicated and rife with the idea that recognizing women’s vote might be a path to ‘morality legislation’ which in the early part of the century bore a close relation to some of the themes the religious right champions today.

    None of which complicates in the least the truth that every subject of democracy has to be welcome to influence that democracy – for it to BE a democracy, and for it to have political legitimacy..

  155. 155.

    Ksmiami

    December 10, 2023 at 8:13 pm

     

    @Tony Jay: if it was up to me, the GOP would not be allowed to run as a political entity anymore.

  156. 156.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 8:15 pm

    @Ksmiami: what does that mean?

  157. 157.

    Chris T.

    December 10, 2023 at 8:16 pm

    @John Revolta:

    Oh, we’ll have an election. If Trump gets in next year, the 2028 election will be modeled on the one coming up in Russia in a few months. TFG will even have first-hand advice on how to run it!

    Yes, but strangely enough, Putin will win it even though he’s not running.

  158. 158.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 8:20 pm

    @Chris T.: People need to reel back.

    There won’t be an American election in the next 20 years that closely resembles the Russian “election” because Americans are not Russians. It will take a great deal of chronic trauma to make the median Republican as craven as the median Russian.

    When we talk like this and don’t recognize our institutional and historical strengths, we hasten the day that American elections do look like that.

    If and when Trump is voted into office, American democracy will be challenged, and each and every one of us will have decisions to make about what we are willing to do to defend our constitutional order. When I hear people talk like this, I think “uh oh…sound’s like people aren’t really going to conceive of their democracy as a responsibility.”

  159. 159.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 8:24 pm

    @Bupalos: I wasn’t opposed to the IRA. I was opposed only to the EV rebate portion of it, which is also one of the largest financial components of it, and the most prominently marketed to the public. Biden didn’t go show off heat pumps – all of the photo ops were selling the EVs – which were out of reach of most low income people just on price, and additionally on ability to charge as renters and street parkers generally don’t have at-home charging, and public charging is still mostly a shitshow (and also not cheaper than gas).

    That money would have both helped more people *and* reduced emissions more if it had been spent on ebike rebate which would have cost less or helped more people, and/or free transit passes, and instead of a $300K cap on household income, they could have set that at $50K or $75K and helped a LOT of people and done a lot more good and led to a much bigger investment at the municipal level in long term climate *and* affordability benefits for low income people. But that’s not happening now – now it’s being built out for the upper middle class instead.

  160. 160.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 8:28 pm

    @Martin: Used EV’s have a $4000 rebate at the point of sale for lower incomes.

    It’s basically the exact same rebate for new commensurate to the lower cost of used. On the rebate program, it’s more generous the less you make. You’re an advocate. Please make sure you know the details here.

    I’m sympathetic to the idea, but in fact the IRA is the only legislation i can think of that allows the lower classes to take advantage and invites them to participate climate action the same economically advantageous way that  has always (since 1998 I think) been true for wealthier folk.

    Also you’re wrong. Absent some kind of magical transformation of where and how people live, there is no single better initiative for the environment than the heatpump subsidy. I don’t want to tangle with you, I rate your content here as highly as anyone. But no, on a per ton co2 basis or any other accounting, heat pumps are way more impactful GIVEN REALITY than ebikes. Though I absolutely tip my cap to anyone doing miles that way.

    But I get the vibe. I grow 80% of my family’s calories. I can design an agricultural scheme that costs almost nothing and eliminates 40% of emissions. It just requires everyone to be a fucking psycho like me. In legislation we have to deal with people as they are. Changing people’s actual habits is a matter of demonstrating there is a better way that will make them happier.

  161. 161.

    schrodingers_cat

    December 10, 2023 at 8:34 pm

    @Martin:In my community, the most conservative voters are Korean. We have a lot of conservative Vietnamese and Chinese lawmakers as well. I’ve had multiple Taiwanese Americans tell me off door knocking that they’d never vote for a Democrat after Carter sold out Taiwan.

    Your anecdata doesn’t agree with Pew’s statistics.

    Ds got 70% of the Asian American vote in 2022.

  162. 162.

    Denali5

    December 10, 2023 at 8:35 pm

    @Martin

    The Christian Front gained supporters in the run up to World War II, after women won the right to vote. Woman who fought for suffrage like Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Victoria Woodhull were quite liberal in their views. Elizabeth Cady Stanton wrote a women’s version of the Bible. So I don’t quite understand your point of view.

  163. 163.

    Ksmiami

    December 10, 2023 at 8:37 pm

    @Bupalos: they no longer act like a political party, more a criminal gang of treasonous grifters.

  164. 164.

    Chris T.

    December 10, 2023 at 8:37 pm

    @Bupalos: I left off the “/s”, sorry about that.

  165. 165.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 8:43 pm

    @Chris T.: Oh yes I get that I was actually responding to Revolta by way of your snark.

  166. 166.

    Bupalos

    December 10, 2023 at 8:47 pm

    @Ksmiami: The most salient American political fact about the GOP is that 40+ % of the citizens of the United States votes for them.

    There is no win which we can maintain for any length of time that does not involve addressing that particular existential threat. Trump and the radicalized GOP is the voice of these people. The solution to that is not “take away their voice.” I really shiver when I think about the possibility that a lot of my compatriots on the left seem to be implying that the solution to the bad choices a lot of Americans are making is to take away their choice. Trump needs to run. He needs to lose, and we need to defend our win, and then we need to do a lot of remedial work here……but he needs to run.

  167. 167.

    Another Scott

    December 10, 2023 at 9:32 pm

    @Bupalos:

    The most salient American political fact about the GOP is that 40+ % of the citizens of the United States votes for them.

    I feel compelled to point out that while I know what you meant, what you wrote is not correct.

    About 1/3 of eligible people do not vote even in high turnout years. A lot of that is because it’s much more difficult than it should be to register and to vote. We know that those difficulties affect mostly people who would be more likely to vote Democratic (otherwise those restrictions would not be in place).

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  168. 168.

    Another Scott

    December 10, 2023 at 9:50 pm

    Meanwhile, … NPR.org:

    Rubio recently made history for breaking the record of the longest spaceflight for a U.S. astronaut, spending 371 days in space. He returned to Earth at the end of September and spoke at a NASA briefing in October, where he addressed these tomato eating allegations.

    He explained that NASA is conducting botany studies onboard the ISS so astronauts could figure out ways to grow fresh food in space for longer term missions.

    “I put [the tomato] in a little bag, and one of my crewmates was doing [an] event with some schoolkids, and I thought it’d be kind of cool to show the kids, ‘Hey guys, this is the first tomato harvested in space,’ ” he said. “Then, I was pretty confident that I Velcroed it where I was supposed to Velcro it, and then I came back and it was gone.”

    […]

    “We might have found something that someone has been looking for for quite a while,” astronaut Jasmin Moghbeli said in a NASA video talk from the ISS earlier this week.

    “Our good friend Frank Rubio who headed home has been blamed for quite a while for eating the tomato — but we can exonerate him: We found the tomato.”

    No word about the mustard though.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  169. 169.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 10:02 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Benefits of a region where asians have enough representation to win public office – they don’t have to be as afraid of republican policies if they’re the republican.

    And note, I didn’t necessarily say they were all voting Republican, just that they were the most conservative.

    The dynamic we’ve seen is that when given a choice between white dems and white republicans, these populations favor the dems, because they don’t trust white republicans. But if they get a member of their community as a republican representative, they switch their vote. Some I’m sure are identity voting, but much of what we’ve seen is that the conservative members feel safe voting for a conservative member of their community (or even an adjacent one) where they don’t feel safe voting for a white member.

    Nationally, they may still vote Dem, but once they get a GOP member they trust, they vote GOP. When we had a Korean GOP mayor, Dems had a much harder time getting elected because of this dynamic. When he left, Dems took over. But we also had a Korean community large enough to drive that, and they were aware of their voting power.

    If Democrats don’t have policy support from these voting communities, and in a lot of cases they don’t, they are fragile. And worse, Dems cede whether or not these voters stay to the GOP.

    I don’t know why you’re digging in on the ‘all minorities are a monolith’ trope with your response here.

  170. 170.

    Martin

    December 10, 2023 at 10:24 pm

    @Denali5: There were a lot of disparate groups in the suffrage movement. I never suggested that all suffragettes went fascist, just that some of them did – more than a handful.

    I think you’re really choosing to overlook how racist the suffragette movement was overall. It was the predominantly white protestant factions that succeeded – and many of them were also pretty antisemitic, with Jewish women who didn’t identify as white parceled off into their own organizations, and almost no women of color as part of the central organizations – again, parceled off. And note, the 19th amendment didn’t secure the vote for women of color – only white women.

    Sure, there were plenty of what we would consider to be progressive women in the movement, but they were the exceptions not the rule. We put the non-problematic ones in the history books.

    The Christian Front was far from a mens-only club. In the modern day these factions are increasingly aligned, but they sure as shit weren’t then.

  171. 171.

    Denali5

    December 10, 2023 at 10:36 pm

    @Martin,

    Where in the 19th Amendment does it mention that it applies to white women only?

  172. 172.

    Martin

    December 11, 2023 at 12:24 am

    @Denali5: I guess you’re right that the 1965 Voting Rights Act was a completely pointless piece of legislation.

  173. 173.

    Nettoyeur

    December 11, 2023 at 1:01 am

    @WaterGirl:  Maybe. But suspect his lawyers may have finally got thru to him that he was going to get spit-roasted on cross examination. To wit…even his $2M worth of bought flunky witnesses ended up admitting last week that he over valued his properties. Too bad for the NYAG prosecutors, I think they must have been licking their chops and vying for the chance to put a crabapple in Trump’s little mouth.

  174. 174.

    Denali5

    December 11, 2023 at 8:42 am

    @Martin,

    Yes, you are right. I woke up thinking I had probably made a dumb response.

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