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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Dear Thomas and Molly (and other questions) Open Thread

Dear Thomas and Molly (and other questions) Open Thread

by | 203 Comments

This post is in: 

I see that Trump’s attorneys addressed their most recent “letter” refusing to accept the evidence and discovery that was sent over by the Special Counsel’s office to “Thomas and Molly”.

That can’t possibly be typical in a legal document.  Can it?  To address attorneys on the other side by their first names, as if they are all friends?  To me, that seems like the ultimate disrespect.

So that’s one question.

My other question is about the vote for a ceasefire that is scheduled at the UN today.  (Postponed from yesterday.)  From the little coverage I have seem, it appears that some think it’s possible that the US may either not veto or will abstain from voting.  Please let that be so!  Does that seem at all realistic?  That would definitely be an about-face from Biden, a most welcome one.

My other other question is about whether the US can use the seized Russian assets to fund Ukraine.  Adam Schiff made a statement to the effect that we should do that, and now I see that Senator Sheldon Whitehouse has a bill to that effect.  Ever hopeful.

Open thread.

Update at 5 pm:

BBC

UN Gaza vote postponed to Wednesday as talks continue.

Officials say the UN Security Council will not vote on a draft resolution for a ceasefire in Gaza on Tuesday as expected.

The US says it is working with other members on the text, but it has vetoed previous resolutions
Aid agencies have voiced anger and frustration over the continued plight of civilians in Gaza ahead of the vote.

Israeli President Isaac Herzog has said his country is ready for another humanitarian pause but Hamas says it will not negotiate while Israel’s military operation continues.

The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says 100 Palestinians were killed in Israeli strikes across the territory on Tuesday.

Reader Interactions

203Comments

  4. 4.

    la caterina

    I’m an attorney and a boomer. I use first names in salutations only when there is a cordial relationship with the other attorney. I HATE it when attorneys I don’t know/like address me by my first name. also hate the young, male attorneys who ask me (in court!) to “smile more.” Ugh.

  7. 7.

    waspuppet

    I was under the impression that Schiff was saying Biden could just use the frozen assets himself. I could be wrong about that (both whether he can do that and whether Schiff said it), but if it’s a bill the Republican pro-Putin caucus will just block it, no? Because that’s how democracy works (eyeroll).

    Vaguely related to Trump’s lawyers’ disrespect, his lackeys still refer to him as President Trump. That’s equal parts memory care and refusal to recognize the 2020 election, and I know you’re supposed to refer to ex-presidents as “President,” but most of the people who do this say “Biden” and not “President Biden,” so just in case you’ve forgotten how much they hate this country, there you go.

  9. 9.

    Frankensteinbeck

    That would definitely be an about-face from Bide

    Sssssssort of.  Biden’s rhetoric has been moving steadily through, “Israel, I love you, but you are fucking this up.”  Bibi has somehow burned through international goodwill faster and more completely than George Bush.

  10. 10.

    WaterGirl

    My other (not burning) question at the moment, since i am eating the quiche I just made, is to wonder if I should be putting a layer of cheese under the sautéed onions and garlic so the crust isn’t soggy.

  11. 11.

    Suzanne

    Soooooo apparently the identities of approx. 200 people associated with Jeffrey Epstein are about to be revealed. Taking bets…. I bet Elmo’s in there. Josh Duggar? Rod Dreher? (LMAO, NO, but would be hilarious.)

    About the only person I can think of who I would be surprised to see in that list is Tim Apple.

  12. 12.

    WaterGirl

    @la caterina:  Two questions?  First, do they really do that to you?  (I assume yes, or you wouldn’t have said it.)  Second, do they know what fucking year it is?

    I hope you smack them down like the stupid puppies they are.

  13. 13.

    Martin

    @Omnes Omnibus: My understanding here is that discovery is one of your best tools to slow down the trial because you can plead for time to review it. By refusing to accept it, you lose all future attempts for delay because the judge can just conclude that you clearly aren’t interested in reviewing it because you refuse to accept it.

  14. 14.

    piratedan

    the “response letter” strikes me as having the tone of “please stop finding and producing evidence of crimes that our client has committed and has yet to admit to as we would like to enjoy the holidays with our families and not our client”.  Which seems like an almost reasonable request if the charges were something other than the attempted overthrow of the US Government.

  15. 15.

    la caterina

    @WaterGirl: Yes and Yes. My favorite judge (sadly passed away due to covid) used to warn them thus, “she’ll hurt you and you won’t even feel it.”

  16. 16.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @piratedan: Ah, you suggest they’re seeking professional courtesy. [cue lawyer jokes]

    No doubt we’ll recall the Comic Sans letter (via e-mail).

  17. 17.

    WaterGirl

    @Frankensteinbeck:I agree with you that Biden has about run out of patience, but since Biden vetoed at the last vote, even though he had already run out of patience…  if he didn’t veto this time, I think it would be an about-face, publicly speaking.

    I have so been hoping that Biden would do exactly that about-face.

    It feels to me like Bibi is either totally certain that Biden will continue to support him publicly no matter what, or he is double-dog-daring Biden to not support him.  Not sure which.

  18. 18.

    Scout211

    @WaterGirl: wonder if I should be putting a layer of cheese under the sautéed onions and garlic so the crust isn’t soggy.

     

    I often put a layer of Parmesan down first. But I also pierce holes in the crust with a fork before adding the egg filling (like I do for pie crust). Both of those seem to help to eliminate soggy crust in quiche.

  19. 19.

    Martin

    I posted the other day my understanding on the assets. US law is the barrier – not international. The US only permits using those assets in a conflicts which the US is a party to – which isn’t the case here. Biden would either need to claim that we are in armed conflict with Russia (possibly a cyber conflict would suffice) or Congress needs to pass an exemption – which they’ve done in the past. But it needs to get through Congress.

    That would only allow them to use central bank funds, not oligarch funds which are still protected by the taking and due process clauses. There’s $300B in central bank fund seized, but the US only has about 10% of them, the rest are overseas. No idea if the US could have them transferred. My guess is that any nation that could release them to the US could use them directly, so odds are they’re stuck behind those nations’ laws.

  24. 24.

    trollhattan

    BBC, in the last few minutes.

    We’ve just been told the UN Security Council’s vote on a resolution to halt hostilities in Gaza has been delayed again.
    It’s now scheduled for 22:00 GMT (17:00 ET).
    There have been intense discussions over the wording of the draft resolution, and members of the council will want to avoid any chance of it being vetoed.
    The US vetoed the last draft resolution because of the language that it contained.

    And

    Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh will travel to Cairo in Egypt tomorrow, a source tells the BBC.
    We’ll bring you more on this update shortly.

  25. 25.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:  They are refusing to accept documents that they requested. They are saying that because of the appeal all deadline have been suspended.  Okay, fine.  There is nothing to prevent the DOJ from sending the things before they are due.  Normal lawyers would take advantage of the extra time to review them.  They are trying to make a weird and bullshit point.  And as WG said, it will kill them when they ask for more time later.

  26. 26.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Frankensteinbeck:Sssssssort of.  Biden’s rhetoric has been moving steadily through, “Israel, I love you, but you are fucking this up.”  Bibi has somehow burned through international goodwill faster and more completely than George Bush.

    Yup, which Biden warned Bibi about IIRC within 72 hours of the Hamas attack.

    Also, is the language of the resolution the same as the one we vetoed?

  27. 27.

    WaterGirl

    @Scout211: I will try the parmesan.  I thought you weren’t supposed to poke the holes unless you were baking the pie crust before adding the filling?  (Like with a chocolate cream pie.)

    Oh, should I be pre-baking the pie crust for the broccoli quiche?

  30. 30.

    WaterGirl

    @zhena gogolia: I do not.  What do you mean by briefly?  I think with the chocolate cream pie that I referenced in the comment above, i only bake it about 10 minutes, but it does get little brown.

    But I thought you only pre-bake the pie crust if you’re not going to bake it again?

  32. 32.

    Scout211

    @WaterGirl: Oh, should I be pre-baking the pie crust for the broccoli quiche?

    Even when recommended, I never pre-bake pie crust, but that’s just how I roll. YMMV

    I always pierce the uncooked pie crust prior to adding any filling.  That’s how I was taught when I learned to bake pies from my mother. Again, YMMV

  33. 33.

    Mousebumples

    @Omnes Omnibus: They are refusing to accept documents that they requested. They are saying that because of the appeal all deadline have been suspended. Okay, fine. There is nothing to prevent the DOJ from sending the things before they are due. Normal lawyers would take advantage of the extra time to review them. They are trying to make a weird and bullshit point. And as WG said, it will kill them when they ask for more time later.

    I think I saw somewhere some speculation that his lawyers aren’t being paid to deal with it. (or they were paid up NOT deal with it, lol)

  36. 36.

    Suzanne

    @WaterGirl: Everything I am reading about this uses language like “tied to”, or “associated with”, or “connected to”. So your guess is as good as mine at this point.

    Apparently two journalists are among the names. Let’s guess! Ross Douthat?! It would be irresponsible not to speculate!

  37. 37.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Omnes Omnibus: They are refusing to accept documents that they requested. They are saying that because of the appeal all deadline have been suspended. Okay, fine.  There is nothing to prevent the DOJ from sending the things before they are due.

    The bolded was just my instinctual reaction as soon as I read the italicized. Maybe I should be Trump’s lawyer. Can someone just give me a quick rundown of courtroom procedure so I don’t look like a total ass

    ETA: And they, themselves, requested the documents? Deeply shaking my head.

  38. 38.

    Geminid

    @WaterGirl: Biden is supporting Israel here despite Netanyahu. With the exception of the Arab Joint List, even “Bibi’s” most steadfast opponents support this war.

    Ed.

  42. 42.

    Almost Retired

    @la caterina:   When I was a young lawyer I worked with an attorney fifteen years older than me .  She was from the Bronx (we’re in Los Angeles) and was always impeccably dressed.  I was a floppy haired disheveled goofball who looked like I went surfing before coming to court and couldn’t wait to wriggle out of my Men’s Wearhouse suit (which was true).  Older male attorneys often just assumed I was the senior partner – an absolutely ludicrous conclusion – and would ignore her or ask if she was the court reporter. Once.  Because if they were able to reattach the head she’d bitten off, they never made the same mistake against

  48. 48.

    Brachiator

    @Suzanne:

    Soooooo apparently the identities of approx. 200 people associated with Jeffrey Epstein are about to be revealed. Taking bets…. I bet Elmo’s in there. Josh Duggar? Rod Dreher? (LMAO, NO, but would be hilarious.)

    From a recent New York Magazine story, the list of notable people already identified is amazing.

    The additional names must be totally off the chain.

  49. 49.

    bbleh

    @Omnes Omnibus: They are trying to make a weird and bullshit point.

    This sort of thing has happened often enough — another example being razzing Engoron’s clerk — that I can’t help but feel that either TIFG, employing his usual shoot-from-the-hip judgment, is telling his lawyers to do it, or that they share or have internalized his 10-year-old / ODD-type behavior.

  51. 51.

    Suzanne

    @Mousebumples: Ok, that’s interesting. The news pieces that I have read so far don’t have that level of detail yet (apparently this was just ordered by the judge this morning). I’m sure we’ll learn more shortly.

  56. 56.

    Geminid

    @Sasha: Israelis are keenly aware of this problem. They also know that Netanyahu’s  ability to prolong this war is constrained by the two other members of the War Cabinet that the Knesset created 6 days into the conflict, and also by public opnion.

  57. 57.

    WaterGirl

    @bbleh: Trump’s attorneys, even Kise who was supposed to be a good attorney, have treated the judges, the law, and opposing counsel with deep disrespect.

    I cannot fathom what they are thinking.  Why flush your career and your reputation down the toilet for someone like Trump?

  58. 58.

    Dan B

    @Scout211: Your approach is correct.  High fat, high protein, low moisture cheese is good.  Brushing on olive oil or ghee also helps waterproof the crust.  Apply the minimum to avoid a greasy end product.

  59. 59.

    Ohio Mom

    @Brachiator: I am reminded of George Carlin’s observation, “It’s a big club and you ain’t in it!”

    Though perhaps there are a few names on the list who were more like friends in for a day on a guest pass.

    Noam Chomsky though? If he could step out of himself and observe as a third party, what would he say about himself?

  60. 60.

    Geminid

    @WaterGirl: Yes. In fact, Yair Lapid has been lobbying Senators and Representatives to not push for a ceasefire at this point. Lapid is head of the largest opposition party and has long been one of Netanyahu’s most bitter political opponents, yet he and most other opposition members endorse the goal of ending Hamas’s rule in Gaza, and they want the IDF’s offensive to continue for now.

  62. 62.

    Scout211

    Trevian Kutti’s attorneys  filed notice they are no longer representing her.

    The three-page notice provides no rationale for her Chicago and Atlanta-based lawyers seeking to jump ship. Reached by phone, Darryl Cohen, Kutti’s Atlanta-based attorney, said that “in order to have a good lawyer-client relationship, the client has to listen, the client has to be on board and you have to be paid.”

    “All these things have to happen,” Cohen added. “I’m not saying any of those things did or didn’t happen, but you can extrapolate.” 

    I think we certainly can extrapolate.  LOL

  64. 64.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Brachiator: I’m bracing for a lot of celebrity scientist and pop-science-communicator types to show up, because we knew about a lot of those already–Epstein loved to collect them as part of his circle.

  65. 65.

    hueyplong

    Maybe it’s a function of my (old) age, but after the first communication I always addressed opposing litigation counsel by first name to open correspondence. The surface friendliness was employed all the more intentionally if relations were becoming strained.  Opening a letter with “Dear Mr. ___” or “Dear Ms. ___” was a clear heads up that a line was being or had been crossed.

    Today is the first time I have ever heard of “refusing” discovery. It’s difficult to articulate just how much of an assholish move that is, and the extent to which it taunts protocol and operates, like Col Kurtz, beyond the bounds of human decency. Trump’s existence is like a poisoned water supply.

  67. 67.

    randy khan

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m sure that when they ask for more time later they will say that any consideration of materials sent during the stay is improper because reasons.

    But I am gobsmacked by the claim that sending over the materials violates the stay.  The stay just suspends all deadlines and other required activities.  Sending over the materials while the stay is in effect is like sending them on Tuesday when they are due Friday.

  68. 68.

    Evap

    @WaterGirl: definitely pre bake the crust for quiche.  Bake until the bottom is set, then fill and put back.  For a quiche you can pre bake the crust at a fairly high temp than lower to 350 or even 325 for baking with the filling.  You will probably need to cover the edges to prevent over browning.  I have a nifty silicone gadget for that.

  71. 71.

    Matt McIrvin

    @hueyplong: Is what we’re discovering that a sufficiently powerful asshole can simply break the legal system and operate entirely outside of the bounds of it, by saying he chooses to? If no one is willing to just throw him in the pokey, can he do this forever?

  72. 72.

    wenchacha

    @Frankensteinbeck: I remain dismayed about the people calling out our President for supporting genocide.

    The smart and dumb bombing of Gaza, the deaths of so many penned-in civilians is horrific. I don’t believe it will have the desired effect of eliminating Hamas. It may fuel future terror.

    I’m also horrified at the terror and madness unleashed by Hamas on Oct. 7th. The slaughter at the music fest, the assault on the kibbutzes, all of it had to be so awful  for anyone in Israel.

    I’m a US citizen, and so my tax dollars help to support Israel. Maybe that is enough to say that I support the destruction of the Palestinian people?  So, do I march, scream, call names, become outraged, vote for Green Party, just not vote to “send a message?”

    I’m voting for Biden/Harris. And if fate kicks us in the ass, I will vote for Harris/whoever she trusts to be her running mate.

  73. 73.

    stacib

    @WaterGirl: I always pre-bake (seven to 10 minutes) my crusts when making apple pies, and I’ve never had a soggy crust since doing that.  You do have to be careful of the edges when you put the whole pie together and back in the oven.  I usually cover with aluminum foil.  Also, pies seem to bake better in Pyrex than metal pans.  The crust is much more consistent baking in those.

  74. 74.

    Brachiator

    @Ohio Mom:

    Though perhaps there are a few names on the list who were more like friends in for a day on a guest pass.

    Right now, I believe that most of these people did not have any connection with Epstein’s most notorious activities. However, I also believe that many did not care about his criminal past. Money and celebrity washes away many sins.

    Some people who accepted a big donation from Epstein.

    That Epstein was a convicted sex offender who had admitted to procuring a child for prostitution didn’t dissuade Botstein and Bard from seeking his financial support. “We looked him up, and he was a convicted felon for a sex crime,” Botstein told the Journal, but “we believe in rehabilitation.”

    They certainly believed that the $150,000 that Epstein gave them had been fully rehabilitated.

    I also recall that Trump is on a video of a party at which Epstein was a guest, saying with a smirk, “They say he likes them young.”

    People knew about Epstein. Some didn’t know the details. Some just looked the other way.

    To my mind, Chomsky is surprisingly being morally obtuse.

  75. 75.

    zhena gogolia

    @WaterGirl: The recipe in Fannie Farmer for quiche has you bake it (I think also maybe 10 minutes) before then putting the filling in. I haven’t made it in a while.

  76. 76.

    bbleh

    @WaterGirl: right?  Like, how could anyone with half a brain not know by now that Everything Trump Touches Dies?

    My theory is that some people are drawn to power (Kissinger: “power is the ultimate aphrodisiac”) and want to be noticed by those with power, TIFG by all accounts knows this instinctively and uses it heavily for his own purposes, and … people do dumb things to satisfy their desires.  See also under Epstein, Jeffrey.

  78. 78.

    Geminid

    @Matt McIrvin: There will likely be some tech titans on the list. Xeni Jardin described how Epstein extended his influence operation to Silicon Valley through “Edge Foundation” dinners. Jardin, a “tech culture” jounalist, wrote a lot about these dinners and the larger operation because she was a fringe participant. She believes Epstein basically ran an espionage and foreign influence operation.

    It would be nice if Jardin was still posting, but she left Twitter a few days before Musk took over. She had something like 250,000 followers and could have set up shop elsewhere but as far as I can tell, Jardin has dropped out of sight.

    Jardin had health challenges, and I hope she is just taking care of herself by taking a break.

  79. 79.

    zhena gogolia

    @WaterGirl: Do you use fresh broccoli or frozen? I imagine it’s hard to keep fresh broccoli from generating a lot of moisture. When I make spinach quiche, I thaw frozen chopped spinach and squeeze all the moisture out of it. It doesn’t get too soggy. I’m not sure now whether I prebake the crust — I think I do.

    ETA: You’re making me realize I need to make some quiche.

  80. 80.

    Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    Depends on the cheese.

    The cheese needs to be low in fat, otherwise you get a fatty crust.

    When I bake quiche, I brown or caramelize all the other ingredients ahead of time, that get’s the moisture out.

    The crust takes longer to bake than the eggs.

    P.S. I don’t layer my quiche.

  81. 81.

    Brachiator

    @wenchacha:

    I agree with your eloquent and fair minded post.

    The smart and dumb bombing of Gaza, the deaths of so many penned-in civilians is horrific. I don’t believe it will have the desired effect of eliminating Hamas. It may fuel future terror.

    It is sad that anyone believes that supposedly “eliminating” Hamas will simplisticaly solve the larger political problem.

    And the statements by some Israeli officials renouncing the two state solution only adds fuel to the fire.

  82. 82.

    scav

    Does it make more sense to think of these “lawyers” more as publicity agents?  Not so much interested in the mere case in court as in providing maximal brand-enhancing pop! and positioning in selected content streams.

  84. 84.

    cain

    @la caterina:

    I’m an attorney and a boomer. I use first names in salutations only when there is a cordial relationship with the other attorney. I HATE it when attorneys I don’t know/like address me by my first name. also hate the young, male attorneys who ask me (in court!) to “smile more.” Ugh.

    I’ve heard this a lot – when I took some diversity training – they would bring this up as well. I now recognize it as the misogynist comment that it is. No matter what shit is going down the woman must always smile – jfc.

  86. 86.

    Scout211

    @stacib: Also, pies seem to bake better in Pyrex than metal pans.  The crust is much more consistent baking in those.

    I suspect we all develop our own perfect way of baking pies, quiche and other goodies depending on all kinds of factors, especially how our own ovens work.  My experience has been the exact opposite of yours.  Glass pans bake too quickly in my experience and I only use thick metal pans for pies.

    I guess to add another twist to baking crust of quiche and pies, I always bake my own pie crust so it’s easy to adjust the ingredients to my taste.  Ready-made pie crusts have always seemed to me to have too much liquid in them and don’t bake up flaky enough for my taste.

    Again YMMV and there’s no wrong way to bake.

    Politics and baking advice.  I am loving this thread.

  87. 87.

    trollhattan

    @Brachiator: Getting rid of Hamas—technically infeasible—is being proffered by Bibi as a permanent solution for Israel in a similar fashion to the W Bush admin insistence that invading Iraq will bring freedom and democracy to a Middle East just dying {heh} to be freed.

    Hell no and hell no, respectively.

  89. 89.

    way2blue

    @waspuppet:

    That’s my gripe too.  Trump should always be referred to as either ‘former President’ Trump or Mr Trump.  Rather than pander to his sense of omnipotence.  Especially galling when his attorneys refer to him that way in court or court documents.

  90. 90.

    cain

    @WaterGirl: He needs to start giving Israel some ‘tough love’ – and he needs to make sure that our reps in the UN Security Council stop veto’ing anything in regards to Palestinians.

    Speaking of that – wtf is with French palestinians supporting _Hamas_?? Are they out of their mind? Nobody likes Hamas – not even other Muslim countries. I understand they are a bunch of back stabbers and not to be trusted.

  91. 91.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Suzanne:

    the identities of approx. 200 people associated with Jeffrey Epstein

    Unless this is evidence that they were specifically customers of his underage prostitution ring, that list is meaningless.  Epstein was a schmoozer.  He made friends with every famous, important, or powerful person he possibly could.  Everyone important during his active period was associated with him.  You can say the same about Bill Clinton, and indeed, they were associated with each other.  Whether gathering this many friendly acquaintances was a strategy or just what he did naturally, Epstein being ‘associated’ with somebody means bupkis.

  95. 95.

    Paul in KY

    Since this is an open thread, I have been (unwillingly) forced to watch a bunch of ‘Alvin and the Chipmunks’ shows. My 6 year old son is on break & yours truly is his sitter. This is a cartoon series and in it the characters (Alvin & his 2 sidekicks and 3 female equivalents)  go to school and engage in all sorts of hijinks, etc. etc.

    The ‘chipmunks’ look like little kids, but with tails & ‘Who noses’ and some extra hair. They also go to a human school and no human kid gives them a 2nd look, etc.

    My question is: Is this an alternate universe where all chipmunks look like this? Were Alvin and his gang the products of some kind of medical experiments or magic or an unholy coupling of man & munk???

  96. 96.

    Suzanne

    @cain:

    No matter what shit is going down the woman must always smile – jfc. 

    I was told once, in my annual performance review at work, that I didn’t smile enough.

    Yes, that was a toxic workplace.

  98. 98.

    trollhattan

    More suited to the last post but in critter news, Colorado is getting their wolf on.

    This week has surely been a strange one for the wolf known as 2302-OR. A lean 68-pound yearling with shaggy black fur and amber eyes, she had been a member of the Five Points Pack, which makes its home in the mountains of northeastern Oregon. But on Sunday, Dec. 17, her world changed: First, she was knocked out by a tranquilizer dart fired by a biologist in a helicopter, then inspected by veterinarians and fitted with a GPS collar. Her brother, 2303-OR, received the same treatment, as did three other wolves from different Oregon packs — some 421 pounds of Canis lupus altogether.

    The adventure didn’t end there: The next day, the canines, now packed into crates, were flown to western Colorado in a single-engine plane and trucked to a remote state-owned corner of Grand County. One by one, the doors to their crates were eased open by their human caretakers, and the carnivores trotted out into a landscape covered in brown grass, patchy snow, and pinyon-juniper forest — the first five wolves released under Colorado’s ambitious, voter-led reintroduction program.

    “For the first time since the 1940s, the howl of wolves will officially return to western Colorado,” Gov. Jared Polis, who attended the release, announced in a statement. “The shared efforts to reintroduce wolves are just getting started.”

    The release of 2302-OR and her fellows was the culmination of a process that began in November 2020, when Colorado’s voters narrowly passed Proposition 114. The ballot measure, advanced by a conservation group called the Rocky Mountain Wolf Action Fund, required the state to reintroduce wolves by the end of 2023. The election broadly pitted voters on the state’s eastern Front Range against residents of the Western Slope, where the wolves would be released. In the end, 50.9% of the electorate said yes to wolves — and to the first voter-mandated wolf reintroduction in U.S. history.

    Much more here.

    https://www.hcn.org/articles/wolves-paws-on-the-ground-how-colorado-got-its-wolves-back?utm_source=wcn1&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2023-12-19-Newsletter

  100. 100.

    trollhattan

    @Suzanne: “Have you though of giving me something to smile about?”

    Personally, all the best retorts pop into mind more than two hours late.

  103. 103.

    Dan B

    @cain: I disagree.  It’s always appropriate for women attorneys to smile more when performing a bris or “tutoring”* a male attorney.

     

    *Tutoring in the manner of cats and dogs get tutored at the vet.

  104. 104.

    catclub

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Trump’s lawyers had asked for production of stuff from the DOJ. The DOJ delivered it.  Then Trump’s lawyers objected to the delivery they had requested.  It makes no sense, since they had asked for it.

     

    The other part was that when they ask for extra time to review this stuff – in order to delay trial – the Judge will say no – you refused production when it arrived.

     

    I am an expert lawyer on the internet – from reading the lawyers at BJ

  105. 105.

    cmorenc

    @WaterGirl: Trump’s lawyers may be behaving like contemptuous assholes to opposing counsel and court because they are placing a big bet on Trump winning in November, and…being among the rewarded instead of the vindictively persecuted.

  106. 106.

    Brachiator

    @Paul in KY:

    My question is: Is this an alternate universe where all chipmunks look like this? Were Alvin and his gang the products of some kind of medical experiments or magic or an unholy coupling of man & munk???

    They were originally the voices on a 1958 novelty record. Later, someone thought to create animated characters.

    Or, the mysterious origins of the chipmunks have been lost in time. Perhaps the nuclear tests that may have given rise to Godzilla or the experiments that led to the Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtles also led to Alvin, Simon and Theodore.

  107. 107.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Brachiator: ​ 

    To my mind, Chomsky is surprisingly being morally obtuse.

    There’s nothing shocking about that at all, he’s always been a morally obtuse asshole.

  108. 108.

    Old Man Shadow

    @trollhattan: Well, it depends on how broadly you define Hamas. If you include everyone in Gaza, then getting rid of “it” would fulfill Likud’s goals nicely.

  109. 109.

    cmorenc

    @trollhattan: How long before some MAGA rancher decides to go wolf-hunting to protect his livestock…ok, as much to send a big FU to the folk who voted in favor of wolf re-introduction?  Also, if the wolves are trackable by wildlife officials, so are they by ranchers hostile to their re-introduction.

  110. 110.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Paul in KY: “Funny animal” cartoons and stories often raise more questions than answers. Sometimes anthropomorphic animals are just accepted in the world as normal things. Sometimes there are anthropomorphic animals and just regular animals of the same species, and nobody seems to question this.

    (Thus the age-old question “if Pluto is a dog, what is Goofy?” And then in Carl Barks’ Donald Duck comics there were all these characters who basically just seemed to be humans with dog noses–they were the predominant sentient species in that world aside from ducks.)

  112. 112.

    Geminid

    @cain: The Knesset’s Arab Joint List opposes the war. The other Arab party, Mansour Abbas’s Ra’am party, has been more ambivalent, perhaps because its base is southern Israeli Bedouins and a number of their people were killed on October 7.

    Or taken hostage; at least two of the hostages released a few weeks ago were Bedouin girls and one of the three hostages the IDF killed last week was a Bedouin man. He was finishing up a night shift at a kibbutz’s chicken hatchery when Hamas captured him.

  113. 113.

    way2blue

    @WaterGirl:

    My *guess* is that they’re trying to bait the judges into saying something ‘unprofessional’ that in turn they can use to argue bias, incompetence…  i.e., playing the long game so to speak.

  114. 114.

    C Stars

    @trollhattan: This is fascinating, thank you for sharing. I’m going to share with the wolf fanatic in my life. I seem to recall a news story about how a wolf matriarch has unexpectedly traveled down from Oregon into California recently.

  116. 116.

    Dan B

    @trollhattan: I was friends with an Iraqi expat anesthesiologist.  She put many men out so their ears would be removed.  She saw the terror on their faces.  She was hopeful before W & Cheney’s invasion.  She was shocked by the massive bombing in civilian districts and horrified when a million soldiers were dismissed.  How were they going to provide for their families?  Far too many political hawks believed the victory was complete when the cavalry arrived.  Far too few understood the pacification of Europe and Japan or the Marshall Plan.

  117. 117.

    C Stars

    @Paul in KY: I don’t know the answer to your question, but I do extend my sympathy. Of all the fictional characters created for kids, I always have thought that the chipmunks were some of the most annoying.

  121. 121.

    Maxim

    @Ohio Mom: Chomsky does not seem to be possessed of a high degree of self-awareness. He reminds me of Bernie in that respect: used to praise (perhaps excessive amounts of it) and thin-skinned about even a hint of criticism.

  122. 122.

    WaterGirl

    @Paul in KY: That’s above my pay grade, but I can offer my sympathy for having to sit through that, repeatedly.

    Oh, and fathers cannot babysit their children – it’s only babysitting if it’s someone else’s kid.

  125. 125.

    WaterGirl

    @trollhattan: My parents owned a local tavern, with regular customers that everyone knew, including me.  But one day – when I was a senior in high school – some asshole said something about wanting to get into my pants.

    It’s been so long that I can’t remember whether I said this to him, or just wished I had:

    I’m sorry, but there’s only room for one ass in these pants.

  126. 126.

    WaterGirl

    @catclub: I *think* they asked for it BEFORE Jack Smith petitioned the Supreme Court and things ground to a halt.

    Not excusing them for being suck immature, unprofessional, shameless dicks, just adding that for full disclosure.

  127. 127.

    Rand Careaga

    @Brachiator: After, I do not doubt, a certain amount of whining and complaining on my part, my parents purchased for me the 45 of the Chipmunks’ “Christmas Don’t Be Late” at around this time sixty-five years ago.  Earlier in the present century I listened to the thing on the Tube of You, coming out of the ordeal with renewed compassion for the late parental units, who must have regretted, as I played the thing over and over in 1958, not having the good sense to expose me on the hillside at birth.

  129. 129.

    Geminid

    @Paul in KY: Can you maybe get some Roadrunner cartoons to watch instead? That might be as much fun for them, and more for you.

    I read that someone made a Roadrunner movie that is currently tied up in a commercial dispute. The guy who did the music released a clip of himself conducting the chorus, perhaps in hopes of encouraging its release. He leads 40 people singing “Meep!” “Meep-meep!” to the tune of Tchaikovsky’s 1812 overture.

  130. 130.

    WaterGirl

    @way2blue: Yeah, I’m sure that’s what they were up to in NY with Judge Engoron, which was maybe safe enough in civil court – because everything was on the line with Trump’s businesses, so why not go for broke?

    But the disrespect toward the black, female, very competent judge?  That’s just plain stupid.

  131. 131.

    Anonymous At Work

    As a lawyer addressing other strange persons, I use Mr./Ms. ocassionally, but other lawyers quickly become their first name and the PhDs/MDs stay “Dr.” for official correspondence until they tell me otherwise.  Any attorney insisting on “Dr.” (Juris Doctorate) is being pretetious.

    However, refusing to acknowledge that discovery is happening and paperwork is being prepared is just foolishness.  A nice “We acknowledge receipt of materials however the stay is in effect, so our official review won’t begin” would work (they should read the material but not count time).

    As far as UN vote goes, it’s a game of chicken and seeing what Russia will do.  Russia will possibly veto it since Bibi and Putin are close in a way that those without Swiss bank accounts aren’t.  But I imagine that Russia doesn’t want to be joined by a villain’s gallery of neocon targets.

  132. 132.

    WaterGirl

    @Dan B:

    She put many men out so their ears would be removed.  She saw the terror on their faces.

    This makes no sense to me, and I probably should be grateful that it does, because it sounds like there is a horrific story there.

  133. 133.

    Paul in KY

    @Brachiator: I would think a nuclear accident or maybe a wormhole from an alternate dimension where chipmunk ancestors rose to sentience.

    I do know I hate the high pitched singing. Very much.

  135. 135.

    Yet Another Haldane

    @WaterGirl: I do that with the cheese (Jarlsberg, usually), and it works well.  Or, slightly more elaborately:  par-bake the shell at 450 for five minutes under weighted parchment; then remove the parchment and weights, replace with a layer of grated cheese over the bottom and bake that until it melts; then lower the temperature, pour in the filling, and finish baking.

    This is a hybrid of the JoC recipes for pecan pie (par-baking the crust) and quiche Lorraine.

  136. 136.

    Paul in KY

    @Matt McIrvin: True. The ‘dog nose’ people I call ‘Whos’, as the original cartoon gave a bunch of them that, along with antennas that some had and some did not.

  139. 139.

    Paul in KY

    @WaterGirl: If they decided that Hamas was killing any chance for them to ever get their own state (which, IMO, they are), then they can certainly behave so that any sane Palestinian without a deathwish will/would run from it.

    The death being something akin to necklacing.

  140. 140.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Martin: ​
     

    There’s $300B in central bank fund seized, but the US only has about 10% of them, the rest are overseas. No idea if the US could have them transferred. My guess is that any nation that could release them to the US could use them directly, so odds are they’re stuck behind those nations’ laws.

    My impression from something I read recently was that the EU would kinda like to give the funds frozen there to Ukraine, but would rather follow our lead than be out front.

    I’m not sure how much of the frozen funds are in EU countries, but I’d figure that would be a bigger chunk than the $30B here.

  145. 145.

    WaterGirl

    @Yet Another Haldane: Hmm.  My recipe calls for a temp of 425 for the first 15 minutes, then 350.

    Hmm, so that sounds like empty shell bakes for 5 minutes at 450, add cheese for 5 more at 450, then down to 425 for 15 minutes with the egg mixture, then down to 350

    This is the only thing my sister makes better than I do, and I love her broccoli quiche but mine never turns out like hers.  At best mine is okay.  sigh.

  147. 147.

    Dan B

    @WaterGirl: Sadaam’s foes had their ears cut off.  It made them easily identifiable and subject to random retaliation by hardliners.  Ear reconstruction has been a notable part of Iraqi medicine.  I’m sure that other ‘procedures’ were also performed.

  148. 148.

    WaterGirl

    @narya: Egg wash is a good idea, too.

    I just checked with my sister, and she said she uses a frozen crust, doesn’t prick it with a fork, doesn’t use cheese on the bottom, doesn’t do anything special.  And hers always comes out perfect.

    sigh.

  149. 149.

    lowtechcyclist

    @la caterina:

    also hate the young, male attorneys who ask me (in court!) to “smile more.” Ugh.

    Good Lord. Bad enough that they do it at all, but in court??  Fucking appalling.

    Sounds like you’re able to get a measure of revenge, though, and I’m glad to hear that.

  151. 151.

    Geminid

    @Paul in KY: Now I see that Warner Brothers will allow Coyote vs. Acme to be released. They were going to shelve it and take a $30 million tax write-off, but a public outcry persuaded them to shop the movie to another distributor.

  152. 152.

    Scout211

    3 years in prison for another Proud Boy who took a guilty plea.

    Charles Donohoe was the second Proud Boy to plead guilty to conspiring with other group members to obstruct the Jan. 6, 2021, joint session of Congress for certifying President Joe Biden’s electoral victory. His sentence could be a bellwether for other Proud Boys conspirators who agreed to cooperate with federal prosecutors.

    Donohoe, 35, of Kernersville, North Carolina, apologized to his family, the law-enforcement officers who guarded the Capitol on Jan. 6, and “America as a whole” for his actions on Jan. 6.

    I knew what I was doing was illegal from the very moment those barricades got knocked down,” he said.

  153. 153.

    narya

    @WaterGirl: I would roast all the veggies (not least because I think it deepens the flavors), and I would bake the crust for 20 minutes at least. I suspect part of what takes your version longer to bake is that, even though you’ve cooked the broccoli, it’s still “wet,” i.e., you’re effectively adding moisture to something that you want to set. I’d fork the crust, and egg wash it after it baked (not before, as you’re trying to get moisture out of it).

  154. 154.

    NotMax

    @narya

    Yup yup. Any veggies added should not only be cooked but drained/patted/squeezed as bone dry as possible before adding them.

    Water and custard do not play well together.

  157. 157.

    Burnspbesq

    I think the technical legal name for Trump’s counsel’s latest maneuver is “douchebaggery of the highest order”

  158. 158.

    sab

    @Old Man Shadow: Cuyahoga Valley National Park has some beavers that are big stars now, but were not initially welcomed. There had been junk yard with many many hundreds of wrecked cars.

    The park cleaned it up, hauled away tons of stuff, and decided the area would be a good site for a parking lot.

    The beavers decided that the cleaned up site would be a good place to live, so they built a dam and flooded the proposed parking lot site. The park tore out the beaver dam. The beavers rebuilt. Rinse and repeat a couple of times.

    Meanwhile the new beaver marsh was attracting birds, more beavers, new plants, and a small number of tourists (including professional nature photographers.) So the park people accepted the marsh, and built a wooden raised causeway for park visitors. It’s probably the second most popular site after Brandywine Falls.

  160. 160.

    Redshift

    @Timill:

    Or then again, Trump may have told them that he’s not paying for anything they do while the case is on hold.

    I thought of that, and I think it would be hilarious if he understands just enough of the law to be shooting himself in the foot here.

    The letter refers to actions “burdening” his legal team, which from what I understand is a real part of this kind of appeal. Even if it’s a longshot, the court pauses any action that “burdens” the defendant, because if the case ends up being dismissed, they shouldn’t be compelled to do work on the defense (or pay lawyers to do it.)

    So I can imagine TFG’s lawyers trying to explain this, and he only understands the idea that he can’t (temporarily) be compelled to pay them to do stuff, and says “yeah, do that!” and completely ignores any effort to explain how that will be bad for his case.

  161. 161.

    Geminid

    @Baud: The plot is a legal drama, with Wile E. Coyote suing Acme over its defective products. He hires an attorney much like himself….

  162. 162.

    sab

    @Paul in KY: I am almost 70. My spouse is 72. I just yelled down the stairs at him : “If I say ‘chipmunk’, will you get an earworm?” and he immediately sang back at me the same song I was thinking. Neither of us was annoyed, but that is just us.

  164. 164.

    Bobby Thomson

    Where I practice, it\s quite common to address other attorneys by their first names and a diss if you don’t.

  166. 166.

    Ken

    @Matt McIrvin: The “Comics Curmudgeon” at joshreads.com often riffs on that theme. Slylock Fox is a frequent target; he’s developed a backstory about the animal uprising that killed nearly all humans.

  168. 168.

    Redshift

    @sab: We had some beavers in the creek that runs through our suburban neighborhood years ago. We used to go watch them at night when they were out. Fortunately, the neighbors who lived right across the road also liked them, and everyone put chicken wire around the trees they didn’t want to lose and let the beavers take the others if they wanted. (The bank of the creek also had trees, and was county land.)

    The county sent a crew to take down the dam (there was a reasonable concern the pond would damage or flood the road bridge just downstream.) The head of the informal neighborhood association got on the phone to the county board and had the cell phone number of the head of the crew by the time they got out of their truck. Since everyone liked the beavers and was willing to accept the risk, the matter was quickly settled. 🙂

  169. 169.

    Brachiator

    @Rand Careaga:

    After, I do not doubt, a certain amount of whining and complaining on my part, my parents purchased for me the 45 of the Chipmunks’ “Christmas Don’t Be Late” at around this time sixty-five years ago.

    Ross Bagdasarian created and performed all the chipmunk voices, under the stage name of David Seville.

    He also appears in Alfred Hitchcock’s “Rear Window,” where he is the piano player in one of the courtyard apartments.

    He had a bit of success as a songwriter.

    Bagdasarian’s major success with songwriting came with “Come On-a My House”. The song was rejected by many record companies as being “too ethnic”, until Mitch Miller of Columbia Records came across the song, liked it and persuaded Rosemary Clooney to record it. The song was originally recorded by Kay Armen in 1950, but the version recorded by Rosemary Clooney in 1951 turned into a million-selling hit.

    In addition to the Chipmunk song you know, in 1958, he also wrote and performed another memorable little ditty called The Witch Doctor.

  170. 170.

    Bobby Thomson

    @hueyplong: Maybe it’s a function of my (old) age, but after the first communication I always addressed opposing litigation counsel by first name to open correspondence. The surface friendliness was employed all the more intentionally if relations were becoming strained.  Opening a letter with “Dear Mr. ___” or “Dear Ms. ___” was a clear heads up that a line was being or had been crossed.

     

    So far as I’m concerned that’s still the practice.  Using someone’s government name is a scolding.

  171. 171.

    Yet Another Haldane

    @WaterGirl: That’s in the same ballpark as my recipe.  For a while I pre-baked* the crust without caulking it with cheese, but my crusts still came out soggier than I like.

    I haven’t tried making holes in the crust.  I would’ve thought that would make more surface area for liquid to soak into the dough?  I’ll try it on my next quiche, if I remember**.

    * pre-bake, not par-bake.  I was confused.

    ** Alas, I won’t remember.

  172. 172.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Brachiator: Right now, I believe that most of these people did not have any connection with Epstein’s most notorious activities. However, I also believe that many did not care about his criminal past. Money and celebrity washes away many sins.

     

    I agree

  176. 176.

    Another Scott

    @trollhattan: Other reports I’ve seen said they’re now trying to have an acceptable draft for a vote on Wednesday.

    News.UN.org:

    Draft resolution: Key points

    [ Video coverage of this morning’s meeting of the Security Council. ]

    * Demands parties to the conflict “allow, facilitate and enable the immediate, safe and unhindered delivery of humanitarian assistance” at scale, to the Palestinian population of Gaza.

    * Calls for the “urgent suspension of hostilities” to allow safe and unhindered access.

    * The resolution cites “deep concern at the dire and rapidly deteriorating humanitarian situation” in Gaza and its “grave impact” on civilians there.

    * Reaffirms the Council’s “strong concern for the disproportionate effect” the conflict is having on women and children. It stresses the obligation to respect and protect humanitarian relief and medical staff.

    * Takes note of the reopening of the Karem Abu Salem or Kerem Shalom crossing from Israel to speed up delivery of aid, and demands the parties allow the use of all land, sea and air routes to provide an increased flow of aid.

    * Requests the UN chief sets up a monitoring mechanism with the necessary staff and equipment “to exclusively monitor all humanitarian relief consignments”, to speed up delivery. This will be independent of all parties to the conflict and be in effect for one year.

    * Demands the “immediate and unconditional release of all hostages” providing for their medical needs while still captive and “firmly condemns” all violations of international humanitarian law including indiscriminate attacks against civilians “and all acts of terrorism.”

    * Notes UN facilities are protected under humanitarian law and “rejects forced displacement of the civilian population”. It demands combatants ensure the safety and security of all UN and associated personnel.

    * Reiterates the Council’s “unwavering commitment to the vision of the two-State solution”, stressing the importance of unifying the West Bank and Gaza under the Palestinian Authority.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  177. 177.

    pat

    What’s this about an anesthesiologist and ears being cut off???  It was some time back on this thread….

  179. 179.

    WaterGirl

    BBC

    UN Gaza vote postponed to Wednesday as talks continue.

    Officials say the UN Security Council will not vote on a draft resolution for a ceasefire in Gaza on Tuesday as expected.

    The US says it is working with other members on the text, but it has vetoed previous resolutions.

    Aid agencies have voiced anger and frustration over the continued plight of civilians in Gaza ahead of the vote.

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog has said his country is ready for another humanitarian pause but Hamas says it will not negotiate while Israel’s military operation continues.

    The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says 100 Palestinians were killed in Israeli strikes across the territory on Tuesday.

  180. 180.

    C Stars

    @Paul in KY: Well, mine are 10 and 13 now, and now the annoying creatures filling our house with din are these ridiculous YouTubeDudes that my kids love to watch. Not quite as bad sonically as the Chipmunks, but on the other hand they will make you lose all hope in humankind.

  181. 181.

    WaterGirl

    @WaterGirl:

    The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says 100 Palestinians were killed in Israeli strikes across the territory on Tuesday.

    Does Israel not care that much of the civilized world is starting to see the Israeli forces (under the current leadership) as monsters?

  182. 182.

    Mike in Pasadena

    @Omnes Omnibus: In spite of claiming not to accept the proffered discovery documents, it’s unlikely counsel did not photocopy it and set several associates reviewing it.

    By the way, in more than 20 years of practice, I never saw first names on lawyer-to-lawyer correspondence unless the lawyers were longtime friends or the writer was patronizing the recipient.

  183. 183.

    WaterGirl

    @pat: I tried to ask about that, too, but I was almost relived not to see an answer, because unless there was an autocorrect in there, that is the stuff of nightmares.

  185. 185.

    PST

    @hueyplong:

    Maybe it’s a function of my (old) age, but after the first communication I always addressed opposing litigation counsel by first name to open correspondence. The surface friendliness was employed all the more intentionally if relations were becoming strained. Opening a letter with “Dear Mr. ___” or “Dear Ms. ___” was a clear heads up that a line was being or had been crossed.

    It’s funny, but I always avoided first names when corresponding with opposing counsel, even if they were friends that I would gladly have a drink with and call by first name socially. I think I worried that people who have become embroiled in litigation worry that lawyers are all in cahoots and the court system is stacked against them. I didn’t want clients to think I was buddy-buddy with the other side. This probably depends a lot on local custom and the kind of litigation one is involved in.

  186. 186.

    Bobby Thomson

    @WaterGirl:  It’s a war.  Civilian deaths are terrible in any war and should not the intended result of any military operation, but Hamas embedding in civilian spaces makes unintended deaths highly likely.  Hamas could end the war at any time.

  187. 187.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Mike in Pasadena: By the way, in more than 20 years of practice, I never saw first names on lawyer-to-lawyer correspondence unless the lawyers were longtime friends or the writer was patronizing the recipient.

    Might be a West Coast thing.  My experience is very different.

  190. 190.

    Geminid

     

     

    @WaterGirl: The Israelis would argue that many of the 100 people the Gaza Health Ministry listed as civilians were armed fighters and not in fact civilians.

  191. 191.

    Geminid

    @Bobby Thomson: Hamas knew their savage attack would provoke a savage response, and they intended that result. As one leader put it, “We’re a nation of martyrs.”

    But they never asked their people if they wanted to be martyrs. For Hamas, Gaza’s civilians are just pawns to be sacrificed in order to destroy Western support for their enemy.

  193. 193.

    WaterGirl

    @Geminid:

    For Hamas, Gaza’s civilians are just pawns to be sacrificed in order to destroy Western support for their enemy.

    Yes!  and…

    For Israel, Gaza’s civilians are expendable people to be sacrificed in order to destroy Hamas.

    Hey, both sides agree!  Palestinian people are expendable.

  194. 194.

    Geminid

    @WaterGirl: I’m not trying to exonerate Israel here. I’m saying Hamas bears as much or more blame for these deaths. They knew this blood would be shed, and they intended for it to be shed. They’re hoping that Israel gets all the blame. That’s one reason the health ministry that Hamas controls lists every casualty as a civilian, and hopes people either won’t notice or choose not to.

  196. 196.

    WaterGirl

    @Geminid: It seems to me that both sides are sacrificing people for their playing power games.

    Hamas is responsible for the deaths and horror of the October attack, and god knows what is happening to the prisoners they still have.

    Israel has apparently decided it’s okay to kill a ton of Palestinian civilians because that’s the price that has to be paid in order to destroy Hamas.

    And Hamas has decided that Palestinian civilians are expendable, and they use them for protection.  And also as sacrificial lambs in their propaganda war against Israel.

    The whole thing is abhorrent.

  197. 197.

    Geminid

    @WaterGirl: I think a lot of the killing Israel has done, especially in the first weeks, go beyond what is neccesary destroy Hamas instead are intended to exact veangence. That motivation is still present, which I think is how those three hostages ended up being killed.

    But I still assign a lot of the responsibility for these deaths to Hamas. It would be different if they had only attacked combatants on October 7. Instead they staged the most savage attack they could, because they wanted to provoke a savage response that would serve their political ends.

  198. 198.

    WaterGirl

    @Geminid: Totally agree on the intent of the October attack.

    But “they started it” does not excuse the  behavior of Israel in response.

    Everyone could see what Hamas was trying to provoke, and what they hoped to gain. Biden and his team spelled it out to Bibi on day 1. But Bibi wanted vengeance and he surely figured this response would help him stay in power, so he and others who support this are responsible for their actions.

  199. 199.

    Paul in KY

    @Baud: I don’t see how they’re still in business, with all their products that explode at random times. They must have great legal representation!

  200. 200.

    Geminid

    @WaterGirl: Like I said at #194, I am not tryng to exonerate Israel here. But while “They started it” is not an excuse, it’s still a fact.

    And people are trying to make this war about Benjamin Netanyahu, but there is a lot more going on here than his political survival. That is a side issue, in my opinion.

  203. 203.

    Paul in KY

    @Miss Bianca: In the original movie/TV show, they are actual chipmunks that know (somehow) how to talk and sing and whatnot. These are different. They are much more ‘humanoid’ than the original ones. Physically bigger too.

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