President Joe Biden denounced anti-Arab rhetoric in response to a Wall Street Journal opinion piece targeting Dearborn, Michigan, which the mayor called ‘bigoted’ and ‘Islamophobic’ https://t.co/UrZa30W9F5
— Reuters (@Reuters) February 5, 2024
Reuters — “WSJ opinion piece calls Dearborn ‘jihad capital,’ Biden condemns anti-Arab hate”:
President Joe Biden on Sunday denounced anti-Arab rhetoric in response to a Wall Street Journal opinion piece targeting Dearborn, Michigan, that the mayor called “bigoted” and “Islamophobic.”
The WSJ published the piece on Friday headlined as “Welcome to Dearborn, America’s Jihad Capital“, suggesting the city’s residents, including religious leaders and politicians, supported Palestinian Islamist group Hamas and extremism. The column drew outrage from Dearborn Mayor Abdullah Hammoud, as well as several U.S. lawmakers and rights advocates from the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the Arab American Anti-Discrimination Committee.
The mayor said on Saturday he had ramped up the city’s police presence at houses of worship and other public places after “an alarming increase in bigoted and Islamophobic rhetoric online targeting the city of Dearborn.” As of Sunday afternoon, there were no reports of any unrest in Dearborn, a suburb of about 110,000 people that borders Detroit.
Biden, while not referring directly to the WSJ or the article’s author, said on social media platform X it was wrong to blame “a group of people based on the words of a small few.”
“That’s exactly what can lead to Islamophobia and anti-Arab hate, and it shouldn’t happen to the residents of Dearborn – or any American town,” Biden said on the platform formerly called Twitter.
The city has one of the highest percentages of Arab Americans among U.S. cities, with census figures showing it is about 54% Arab American…
The Mayor of Dearborn:
It’s 2024 and the @WSJ still pushes out this type of garbage.
Reckless. Bigoted. Islamophobic.
Dearborn is one of the greatest American cities in our nation.
– fastest growing city in MI
– home to the #1 travel destination in MI (Greenfield Village / Henry Ford Museum)
-… pic.twitter.com/81iQGGKWPx— Abdullah H. Hammoud (@AHammoudMI) February 3, 2024
Minor historical irony — Greenfield Village is Henry Ford’s ‘update’ on Sturbridge Village, a ‘living museum’ promoting can-do Americans like Thomas Edison & a limitless technological future. We all know that Ford was an outspoken anti-Semite, but it’s less well known (outside Michigan, maybe) that Dearborn first became a major destination for Arabic immigrants because Ford didn’t want African-Americans working in his factories.
Frankly, I’m glad we’ve got Biden to be patient for us, because sometimes it’s hard to be patient with people…
I'm still stuck on "that's not our problem." Are they moving to another planet?
It's literally everyone's problem, but especially the most vulnerable.
— Hope 🦬💙❤️ (@HopeisaBison) February 5, 2024
sab
Adam Abusalah is 23 years old. Things seem very clear to those his age. He knows where we are, but not how we got here.
One of my nephews cast his first presidential vote for Ralph Nader, basically helping to hand the presidency to George W Bush. Nephew came to his senses (aka matured) over the next few years.
I am not even suggesting there is a connection. Just that the lesser evil is usually the best choice.
I don’t think Biden is a lesser evil in most things, or even remotely an evil, but in mid-east yes he is.
NotMax
Greenfield Village pre-dates Old Sturbridge Village.
Baud
Reminds me of stories about Prince. RIP.
NotMax
@Baud
Prince’s change was an affectation, Twitter’s an abomination.
p.a.
It’s a curiosity rather than any significant political thing but older vets I know (and that’s a very small sample size) are no fans of Israel, based mostly on the Liberty “incident”. I have no idea about the current US military and feelings among the ranks. I imagine institutional memory there is stronger than in other institutions.
satby
@p.a.: 1967 was a long time ago, but anti-semitism is eternal. They just found a plausible cover for theirs.
lowtechcyclist
Fuck the WSJ just in general, and for printing this bigoted shit.
I don’t know who Adam Abusalah is, or why I should care about what he says, or what other people I’ve never heard of said in response to him. Fuck this guy.
And fuck Steven Stalinsky for writing the pile of bigoted shit. And best not to write hateful stuff like that when you’re wearing the name of one of the greatest mass murderers of human history.
ETA: And now that I’ve gotten my grumpiness out of the way, good morning, y’all. :-)
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
Good morning.
How’s retirement going so far?
Mai Naem mobile
@sab: Adam Absulah is/!was also a Bernie Bros and all that goes with that. I am not going through all his Tweets to see who he voted for in 2016 but apparently he didn’t learn anything from TFG becoming POTUS in 2016. I sometimes think this crap has to do with people doing an attention seeking thing to get their 15 mins of fame.
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
It’s going pretty well! The kiddo got on his school bus about fifteen minutes ago, and if I was still working, I’d be getting ready to start my own work day in about 10 minutes. Instead, I’m sitting here in my robe and pajamas, relaxing with my coffee and the Juice. I’ve got stuff to do – it’s amazing how much shit I’ve really needed to get done that I put off because I just didn’t have much time to deal with it – but I’m working my way through all that at a leisurely pace; there’s plenty of tomorrows for anything I don’t feel like doing today.
Went to the Museum of the American Indian with my wife and sister last week; I’m thinking of going up to the National Cathedral tomorrow or Wednesday. I’ve spent most of my life in the DC area, and I’ve never been there. It’s great to be able to do stuff like that whenever.
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
So awesome. Except all the stuff that needs to be done. I see the same around my house, and I feel like I need separate vacation days to deal with it all.
Chyron HR
Even if this blog has gone all-in on the annihilation of Gaza, shouldn’t Biden’s actual campaign team have a better response to voters’ concerns than “shut up, stupid”? Guess not.
Mai Naem mobile
@lowtechcyclist: ok. It’s early in the morning and I didn’t immediately connect the Stalinksy to Stalin thing. My first thought was that’s an odd way of constructing a reference to Rupert Murdoch. I’m also old enough to remember when the WSJ opinion page viciously went after Vince Foster so I kind of expect the WSJ opinion page to be extremely nasty.
Soprano2
@satby: You do know that every criticism of Israel is not necessarily due to anti-Semitism, right? That’s one of the things that makes it hard for Biden in this situation, that too many people see any criticism of israel that way.
Warblewarble
Equating criticism of the settler movement and its more heavily armed wing the IDF for crimes against humanity and mass killing, with anti-semitism is a calculated tactic of the Apartheid state and it’s supporters.
satby
@Soprano2: of course I know that, I consider Israel to be an apartheid state. But anyone using an incident from 1967, bad as it was, is grasping for straws, unless they were on the Liberty themselves. Antisemitism is more common. Occam’s razor.
Kay
@Chyron HR:
I hope Biden’s team are becoming aware of it, unlike this blog. Biden’s Israel policy is unpopular with a huge swathe of the country, including most Independents and a strong majority of Democrats. It’s delusioal to continue to insist this is all somehow “Bernie Bros”. It’s unpopular with anyone under 45, so calling opposition “young people” is even a stretch.
Biden is losing Senate Democrats on it now – including Kaine and Van Hollen, hardly Leftists. VP Harris has expressed concern.
Israel has said repeatedly that they would begin avoiding civilian casualties and they have not followed through. It’s past time to take away the blank check and put real conditions on aid. The far Right wing Israeli government has absolutely no incentive to end this – they aren’t even paying for it.
Kay
Two weeks ago:
The political situation for Biden has gotten a lot worse in the last two months. Now most of the country want the US to call for a ceasefire and provide humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza. Biden has somehow gotten into a position where the only people who support his Israel policy are base Republicans.
Freemark
@Mai Naem mobile:
Adam Abusalah was 15/16 in 2016 so doubt he had a lot to do with Trump’s win in 2016. My experience is people that young also don’t fully understand how important voting the ‘lesser of two evils’ actually is.
Kay
Here’s Bernie Bro Kamala Harris:
Kay
This is just the latest poll to show support dropping. It’s one of five or six. Biden on Israel is in line with only 30% of the country. Opposing this isn’t a Leftist position- it’s the majority position.
Kay
I think Biden has been a great President but I oppose his Israel policy. I think it’s ridiculously one-sided and blatantly unfair to the Palestinian position. I’m shocked and dismayed that he has to be told to express sympathy and concern for 30,000 innocent civilians, 40% of whom are children. WTF?
People have blind spots- I hope to hell Israel isn’t Joe Bidens because he could lose his re-elect on it.
JML
@sab: you’re not wrong. young people often see things in pretty simplistic terms and aren’t burdened with any self-doubt about their opinions or concern about whether their statements could cause harm. (I’ve seen this in a lot people as they get older too, so it ain’t just the youngs)
I’m skeptical of anyone who portrays things related to Israel & Palestine in simple terms.
While I don’t believe that every criticism of Israel is based in anti-semitism, there sure is a lot of it rooted in there often very near the surface. And I’m deeply concerned that many of the people accusing Israel of perpetuating a genocide and act and speak as if that state no longer has a right to exist don’t realize (or care) that should Israel exist the international stage we would almost certainly see genocide attempted or enacted against the Jews in the region in response.
It’s insanely complicated and there’s very little good to be found. But accusing Joe Biden of killing 30% of Palestinians isn’t going to accomplish fuck and all.
Chris
You know, as an actual dual citizen who’s always understood perfectly well that my other nationality is my problem and not the rest of the American electorate’s, I’m beyond sick of reading Americans saying “our people” when talking about foreigners.
They’re not your fucking people. Your family made that decision when it moved to America. They’re foreigners. That doesn’t mean you can’t care about them, it doesn’t mean you can’t lobby for them, and it doesn’t mean you can’t get outraged on their behalf. But for fuck’s sake, stop telling me that American foreign policy has any duty to show special consideration to your distant cousins on the other side of the planet in order to win your vote.
WaterGirl
@Chyron HR:
What blog are you reading? Because if you believe that, you haven’t been reading Balloon Juice.
Soprano2
@satby: I don’t know, I heard a story about how military people don’t like the Red Cross, and it goes back to a few days during WWII when they were charging a nickel for doughnuts rather than giving them away for free! Some people’s memories are long, and they transfer that attitude to the next generation. I’m only saying you’re making what’s perhaps an unwarranted assumption.
Chris
@Kay:
Agreed. Everything about his Israel response has suggested that he’s 100% abiding by the traditional playbook in which the only thing you have to care about in terms of domestic politics is the pro-Israel vote, and no policy will ever be too pro-Israel for them.
Except that for better or for worse, for the first time in anyone’s living memory, that’s not the case anymore. There’s now a pro-Palestinian or at least pro-human-rights vote in the country that Democrats also need to take into account, and it’s concentrated in exactly those states we most need to win the presidential election. And he’s been incredibly slow at even beginning to take that into account, which is very much not doing himself any favors.
Kay
@Chris:
That’s a position and I’m sympathetic to it- I too think people have way too much sentimentality about their ” tribe”- a piece of ground in The Old Country – but it would apply to both sides in this conflict, wouldn’t it? Both sides in this conflict claim an ancestral tie that the US must support or they will protest. It’s just that you’re only hearing complaints from the Palestinian side because US policy is ridiculously lop sided. The Israel side have nothing to complain about. Both Joe Biden and far Right Republicans in the House are supporting them- of course they’re not complaining.
Hoodie
Seems like the issue is set up for Biden to announce he’ll veto any defense aid bills that do not include enhancing border protection, helping Ukraine and other pressing security issues. The press loves pivots.
Butter Emails!
@Chris:
This is of course also not a thing which has happened. I’m also not sure whether the US continuing to supply weapons to Israel has had any impact on the number of casualties in Gaza. I assume that Israel has or could procure enough ordinance from other sources to continue to obliterate Gaza, although it might have needed to resort to more and dumber ordinance to do so.
Geminid
@p.a.: Someone who served in the Marine Corps just a few years after the Liberty attack told me that there were hard feelings towards the Israelis because of it. His specialty was Communications and he worked with Navy communications specialists, and they knew sailors who were on the Liberty because its crew’s job was monitoring radio communications.
I heard about this because the Marine was my older brother, who served 1970-74. His specialties were Communications and Arabic Translation, and during the 1973 October War he monitored radio traffic on another Navy ship. It was a much bigger ship though, and part of a task force that included an aircraft carrier.
I think by then the US and Israeli governments had put this incident behind them. Now it’s long in the past, and US Sailors and Marines often train with their Israeli counterparts in various exercises. I suspect the Communications personnel among them are still like, “Pepperidge Farm remembers.”
I think that for most Americans at the time, the Liberty attack was a relatively minor incident. For one thing, this was at the height of the Cold War and when the Six-Day War ended, there was great relief that miltary conflict between the US and Russia had been avoided. It also occured at the height of the Vietnam War, and American servicemen there were being killed in comparable numbers every day.
Kay
@Chris:
Agreed.
I think it’s sily to continue to say “young people” oppose this because (as we know) they’re so naive.
45 year olds aren’t “young people”. I mean they’re younger than me and Joe Biden but they’re solidly middle aged.
Democrats can’t ignore that a majority of the country oppose Biden’s blank check to Israel. That’s political suicide. If the blank check policy continues opposition among Democrats in the US Senate will grow – Tim Kaine joining in is a very bad sign for Biden’s policy. He was our VP candidate. Doesn’t get much more mainstream than that. Pretty soon Biden runs out of time and this political split becomes impossibe for even BJ to ignore.
Chris
@Kay:
Absofuckinglutely. I’m responding to someone on the Palestinian side because that’s what happens to be on the original post, but American Jews drive me fucking insane when they do this about Israel, too.
It’s widespread even beyond that, but nothing brings it out as intensely as Israel/Palestine.
Elizabelle
I do not think Biden is as stupid or simplistic as some of you think. I think they are working furiously behind the scenes, and that he will come out more strongly against Bibi, in steps.
Also, Israel and Netanyahu are actually two different things. He is shaming his country, and shame on (apparently, a majority of) them for supporting him.
Bibi belongs in The Hague, up for war crimes. It could happen.
lowtechcyclist
@Kay:
This. It’s time for Biden to say something like, “the U.S. absolutely supports Israel’s right to exist within its pre-1967 borders, but this Administration cannot support the death and destruction Israel has wreaked on Gaza and its inhabitants.
“The massacre of October 7 was a crime against humanity. But Israel has wreaked its revenge twentyfold or more, almost entirely on Palestinians that had nothing to do with that massacre. That too is a crime against humanity. This must stop. I will veto not only any further aid to Israel while this attack continues, but I will also do so as long as Benjamin Netanyahu has any role in the Israeli government.”
Israel not only needs to get out of Gaza (they’ve had their chance to conduct this operation in a manner that was focused on Hamas, and they’ve blown that chance), but it needs to get rid of that S.O.B. Netanyahu, and it’s past time that we condition our good will on his not being in power.
satby
@Soprano2: I don’t like the Red Cross, and I worked for them as a disaster services volunteer during Katrina and on blood drives. They waste money like nobody’s business. So they generate new haters every year. I don’t know p.a.’s old veterans; my comment was based on playing the odds. And on having Jewish cousins who lost relatives in the Shoah.
Your opinion is certainly a possibility. Why isn’t mine given equal respect?
Chris
@Butter Emails!:
True, although this really isn’t an argument that makes Biden look better.
“Israel is not in fact in any existential danger and is more than capable of keeping itself secure without our help. Nevertheless, let me continue cramming weapons down its throat, even invoking executive privilege multiple times to make it easier for me to do so. Meanwhile, a few thousand miles north of there is a country that is under existential danger that I’ve been trickling desperately needed and still inadequate military aid to for the last two years.”
Elizabelle
@lowtechcyclist: I would love to see and hear that.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@satby:
My wife spent close to 3 months in NOLA right after Katrina doing animal rescue work. And the general consensus of all the volunteer groups down there was exactly yours: the Red Cross is a) vastly overrated as relief organization, and b) profligate in spending while charging the people least able to pay for their services during those times of distress.
Chris
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Who are the best relief organizations in the same vein? Just curious; it’s not my scene at all and I’d never previously heard that about the Red Cross.
satby
Not reported as much here, but reported widely in the Mideast are the ongoing efforts to broker another cease fire that Hamas is refusing, and that the neighboring Arab states are pushing hard for along with Blinken and the Biden administration. While also pushing for an ultimate two state solution and sanctioning some of the extremist West Bank settlers. And that a majority of Israelis now want Netanyahu gone ASAP. In this country we have a shit media that uses every opportunity to damage Biden’s chances for election, why do people suddenly assume that Mideast reporting is so accurate?
Elizabelle
Also, I think throwing “anti-semitism!” into the mix (and I speak not of jackals, here), when Israel is actively conducting a genocide, is the last refuge of scoundrels.
We can see what Israel is doing.
satby
@Chris: Doctors Without Borders. World Central Kitchen.
Charity Navigator is a good way to determine which non-profits will use donations well, and which squander them.
Elizabelle
@satby: I would love to see some good reporting on that subject.
Our MSM is shit. It is like reading Pravda.
(And I was surprised to see that Ukraine has its own news site, Pravda, hopefully not the disinformation and propaganda that the original was.)
Kay
@lowtechcyclist:
And to all the people saying it “doesn’t matter” what the US says (President Biden is currently in charge of US foreign policy) I’ll just say what everyone says when they’re on the other side in a negotiation- you ask the other person to give upwhat they’re telling you “doesn’t matter” :
If it doesn’t matter, then why doesn’t he just say it? He knows he needs Michigan and he is going to need college student votes in MI and WI. If it “doesn’t matter” he could make a statement and help himself. But it DOES matter what the US says and that’s why Biden will not say it. Because he has taken a side, and sadly Palestinian civilians are on the other one.
I’m such a zany Leftist I think the Democratic President should make some effort to get where the majority of the country is (let alone his own Party). President Biden is in a minority on Israel. Of the country. Not a great spot to be in an election year. It’ll only get worse, too. Public opinion is hardening. They aren’t going back to “blank check”. There will more defectors.
Nash
It’s nice to see people finally pushing back against the constant “hooray Biden!” messaging we keep getting here when our actions against Palestine are a horrific stain on the nation.
Elizabelle
@Kay: Could there be any further reasons, at this time? I do not believe that Biden is that simplistic.
And the situation in Gaza, and now in Michigan and elsewhere, does concern me, greatly.
Is he limited in what he can say while still trying to get the Ukraine funding through, which is tied to Israel funding, and has to pass a rightwing House with
peopleRepublican leaders who lie and move the goalposts all the time?What’s going on in Gaza, and Biden taking a big hit for being ineffectual in its face, has to have a lot of those GOP leaders orgasmic.
They are traitors. And Bibi knew they would have his back.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Chris:
I honestly don’t know. She did say that the Salvation Army were incredibly generous with time and stuff and were very well respected/liked by the various animal rescue groups.
She also mentioned some other, much smaller groups but can’t remember their names. They were also very helpful. It’s been so long since we had these conversations, I’m pulling things out of my dodgy memory.
Betty Cracker
We knew Netanyahu was a bad actor going into this, and one of the far-right, ethnic cleansing advocates in Netanyahu’s coalition is already endorsing Trump, which was also 100% predictable. I sure hope there’s a plan that doesn’t rely on their cooperation.
Layer8Problem
@Nash: “Finally”?
satby
@Elizabelle: Ironically the Israeli news service Haaretz has been really good.
I’m a long time reader of Al Jazeera too.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
Especially because the post is about a major US newspaper calling all the residents of a majority Arab American city “jihadists”
Hmm. That sounds plenty bigoted to me!
President Biden doesn’t have to win Israeli votes. He has to win Michigan. Arab Americans are doing what ALL Americans do (including the many Americans who are pro Israel) – they are using the political clout they have to effect change. And they have some! Because they happen to live in a state that Biden won by 140k. That’s why we pay more attention to them than we do to Leftists in Brooklyn. They know this. They can count.
sdhays
You take that back!
//
Elizabelle
@Kay: It’s the Wall Street Journal, a Rupert Murdoch publication. And its editorial page, which is sewage.
Although a lot of the FTF NY Times leadership may be thinking that too, although not saying it out loud.
satby
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: The Salvation Army was good, helping everyone with their mobile soup kitchens without any conditions. (WCK hadn’t been founded yet). Which is why I have mixed feeling about them due to their anti-LGTBQ+ stand. Unlike the Red Cross, SA also donates clothing and household items to local disaster victims freely, Goodwill gives the same people vouchers to use at their stores, which don’t go as far.
Elizabelle
@Kay:
And their “change” could result in Trump returning to office. So fucking short-sighted.
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
How do you know what efforts he is or is not making?
Eyeroller
@satby: If their goals are so ambitious it’s not going to go anywhere. They need to concentrate on the short term and get something accomplished even if it’s far from optimal and may make more demands on Israel than they might prefer. Hamas considers dead civilians to be martyrs furthering their cause and has no motivation to negotiate. Cutting off their funding and their leaderships’ lavish lifestyles might help, but that would apparently involve Turkiye as well as Qatar so would seem to be another long-term goal and we don’t have time for that now.
zhena gogolia
@satby: Thank you.
Geminid
@Butter Emails!: Israel could not carry on the war at the pace it is maintainig without the munitions the US has sent them since October 7. Under these circumstances, very few other nations would send Israel armaments and they would not have near what Israel requires for its Gaza campaign.
I basically support President Biden’s actions in this war, but I think it’s important to understand that he has choices. They’re not great choices, and while I believe he’s made the right ones for the most part, I cannot say I am certain he has.
One reason is that this war is ongoing snd the nature and timing of its resolution is unclear. There is a lot of diplomatic activity and pressure applied, but almost all of it is behind closed doors. So I can’t blame anyone for being frustrated about the administration’s policy because the results up to now have been so frustrating.
Chief Oshkosh
@satby: I though that the OP was about older veterans who were in service in ’67. That said, there is a lot of institutional memory about things like that (an ally killing your people intentionally). I have no knowledge of the Liberty incident as to what did or didn’t happen, but I knew two old Marines who thought it happened and they have for sure passed that on to the next guys coming through.
@Chris: I was nonplussed when, at the end of the first seder that I was invited to be a part of, the last words were “next year in Jerusalem.” I asked “what does that mean?” I wasn’t too comfortable with the answer. And this was a home full of liberal Democrats and all of the people around the table were liberal Democrats and none of them had any ties at all to Israel other than being Jewish. I do think, though, that Israel to Jewish people world wide is different from, say, an American of Irish descent being tribal about Ireland. Israel was sort of set up to be a refuge for any oppressed Jewish person anywhere.
RevRick
@sab: As I said in response to another post, Karl Barth, the Protestant theological giant of the 20th century, observed that in our broken world, the lesser of two evils is actually the good. We will all depart this world with blood on our hands, either by what we do or by our inactions.
This is true in terms of race relations, issues regarding gender and sexuality, climate change, and hunger and poverty. And the tragic fact of life is that none of us can do everything to address them. Even Presidents. And perhaps especially Presidents, since anyone who asserts they can fix it will make everything worse.
Eyeroller
@Elizabelle: I have a feeling that this is a mixture of America’s long-term support of Israel, which is especially strong in older people; fear of organizations like AIPAC (it wasn’t that long ago that they were “credited” with getting a Democratic Congressman defeated in a primary by pouring money to his opponent); and perhaps especially the “Blob’s” apparent obsession with Iran.
satby
@Eyeroller: Oh, of course that’s all they’re (you mean Biden’s admin??) working on now while a war rages and threatens to spread. Much as the Green Lantern folks might wish, BIDEN is not the President of Israel or any other Mideast country and the people who are leaders there have their own agency and interests. Most of them united against Hamas, btw, since it and the Houthis both align with ISIS and Iran.
satby
@Chief Oshkosh: that Israel to Jewish people world wide is different from, say, an American of Irish descent being tribal about Ireland. Israel was sort of set up to be a refuge for any oppressed Jewish person anywhere.
Exactly. A nation where they might never face pogrom or slaughter just for being born Jewish. But the oppressed became the oppressor when their right wing gained control, and here we are. There will be no one simple trick.
satby
@Chief Oshkosh: Maybe. My Marine kid professes not to have heard of it, but then he was busy with 5 wartime deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. So he could have forgotten.
Eyeroller
@satby: I am just echoing Kay’s point that this is a real danger for Biden and they need to do something public ASAP. I know that there is an extension of Cleek’s Law that “only America has agency” but we sort of took that upon ourselves and we do have outsized influence. What would Hamas do if Israel stopped bombing and devoted those resources to fortifying its southern boundary?
As to the two-state solution, I have read that a large majority of the Israeli public is adamantly opposed to it so it is at best a very long-term goal.
Butter Emails!
@Kay:
Biden doesn’t have to win anyone’s vote. If he loses, he gets to spend the relative handful of years he has left with his family in prosperity. He isn’t going to have to worry about “very good people” marching through his neighborhood with tiki torches or the next administration stripping his citizenship and giving him a front row seat to the atrocities being committed in Gaza.
Chris
@Eyeroller:
That’s Murc’s Law.
Cleek’s Law is “conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want, updated daily.”
Murc’s Law is “only Democrats have agency.” Murc’s Law’s International Corollary is “only the United States has agency.”
/pedant
satby
@Eyeroller: Well, they re-emerged back in the north of Gaza as the war has moved south, and the speculation is that they want to derail cease fire talks.
link fixed
Butter Emails!
@Geminid:
Thanks. I was under the impression that most of the additional weapons were more modern bombs along with artillery and tank munitions. I assumed Israel had and could if necessary, obtain/utilize a stockpile of older ordinance and carpet bomb WWII style, but this may not be the case.
Geminid
@Eyeroller: Polling in Israel regarding a Two-State Resolution to the conflict is more mixed. I saw a recent poll that showed a very slight majority favoring a larger package of restarting the process towards a Palestian state that began with the Oslo Accords coupled with normalization of relations with Saudi Arabia.
But looking at the short term, the Gaza War will not end with agreement on a Two State resolution. At best, the US, European nations, Arab states hope it ends with some steps on the road towards one. Many Israelis and Palestinians hope so too.
Eyeroller
@Chris: Sorry, got mixed up! I should have known, I’ve been referring to Murc’s Law for years.
@satby: Of course they want to derail it. So do some in Netanyahu’s coalition. Short of sending troops, which would almost certainly be disastrous, we can’t force either of them to stop. It’s also why I think “working behind the scenes” will go nowhere. Too many bad actors not motivated to negotiate. So we should try to do what we can do, which is withhold armaments and maybe start going after Hamas’ funding sources.
Scamp Dog
@Elizabelle: Pravda is the Russian (and I guess Ukrainian) word for truth. Izvestia is the Russian word for news, and also was the name of the USSR’s news service. The Soviet era joke was that there was no truth in Pravda and no news in Izvestia. I think the Ukrainian version is significantly better than its Soviet counterpart.
satby
@Eyeroller: 52% isn’t a large majority, adding the pro-two states and “don’t know” responses gets you to 48%. These date from December, some interesting stats here. Last graph shows Netanyahu is toast, when he goes is the question.
That started long before this war did. As to the arms, a lot of the old munitions were ultimately going to be sent to Ukraine, but Oct.7 derailed that too.
Chris
@Eyeroller:
This.
We can’t force them to stop, and I don’t think most Americans who sympathize with the Palestinians expect us to. We can certainly stop enthusiastically contributing to the problem.
To use Jon Stewart’s analogy, we can’t force Israel into rehab, but it’d be nice if we stopped giving it the drugs.
Geminid
@Butter Emails!: I think we have sent Israel plenty of both types of munitions. But unlike with Ukraine, where we announce our shipments in detail, we have disclosed relatively little information about our shipments to Israel. Senators Van Hollen’s and Kaines’ beef is that Congress has been kept out of the loop also. This info will all come out eventually I think, but the administration probably hopes this war is over by the time it makes a public accounting.
satby
ok, I totally waste my time putting links here.
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
“It’s all going on in secret” is not a sufficient response in a liberal democracy. If we’re making progress then why have 5 Democratic Senators expressed frustration in the last 2 weeks? It’s so top secret senators don’t know?
I hope the Biden campaign has a better response than the people on BJ.
I am pissed the Biden Administratioon decided not to mention 30k dead civilians in their statement in the war.
that’s inexcusable. It’s a big fuck you to the tens of millions of voters who oppose this policy. Biden is going to have to assist in his own re elect. His supporters can’t do it alone.
Kay
@Geminid:
Is there a single public sign or hint that Israel has any intention of changing their approach?
This is pure hope. There isn’t any concrete sign at all that we are any further than we were the day they decided to bomb civilian areas.
It doesn’t matter what the protestors in Michigan do. Biden is going to be stopped by Dems in the Senate at some point. This can’t continue.
Kay
@Chris:
No one is asking for snyone to force them to stop.
the demand is very simple – they want the United States to oppose killing civilians. That is acreasonable demand. It is President Biden who is being obstinate and unreasonable. His offer is “nothing” – they’re right to object to that – it’s a “fuck you” and Arab Americans who vote 70 per cent Democrat have done nothing to deserve that.
I hope this blank check is worth his re elect because that’s what he’s risking.
Geminid
@Kay: This is not “pure hope.” There is a well-publicized truce deal being mediated by Qatar. It may not pan out, but if it does the first six week phase including a ceasefire could begin by this time next week. That’s what the actors and observers are focused on right now.
Paul in KY
@p.a.: I’m still a bit pissed by that attack. No doubt.
Paul in KY
@lowtechcyclist: Sounds great! Have fun!
Paul in KY
@satby: They (IDF Air) murdered our servicemen who were in international waters, etc. etc. Then lied their asses off about it.
Paul in KY
@Kay: Agree that Pres. Biden needs to step up & be assertive about toning down Israel’s squashing of Hamas and sadness for all the innocent lives lost (Palestinian and Israeli). Will state though that Israel is a longtime ally of ours (for good or bad). Palestine/Palestinian people not so much. That certainly plays into how we are responding.
thalarctosMaritimus
@lowtechcyclist:
The writers are getting particularly lazy this season.
Paul in KY
@lowtechcyclist: The thing is that Israel has said their objective is to ‘eradicate’ Hamas. They will not say we are punishing Gaza for having them there (even though that’s what they are doing). Their ‘objective’ has to be modified for them to stop doing what they are doing. We have to get them to change that objective.
Madeleine
@satby: No, you don’t waste your time. I just read the Ha’aretz article you linked to, and I signed up for regular emails. Sould have done that long ago.
YY_Sima Qian
There has actually been some reporting on what is possibly Biden’s big blind spot toward Israel. After his visit to Israel after the Yom Kippur War & meeting Golda Meir, he had developed a deep & enduring empathy & sympathy for the state of Israel. He has not updated his mental models of Israel since, & he never developed the same level of empathy & sympathy for the Palestinians.
Otherwise, it is very difficult to square why one of the best politicians at emoting empathy, & who has amply demonstrated this prowess toward the suffering of Israelis following the atrocities on Oct. 7, has not demonstrated the same toward the suffering of Palestinians since the start of Israel’s war of vengeance.
& while the Biden Administration is doing whatever it is doing w/ Israel & the Sunni Arab states to try to end the war in Gaza, > 1% of all Gazans have been killed (the majority women & children), almost all displaced (& their former residences & communities pulverized), almost all are lacking adequate food & healthcare, & hundreds of thousands living under famine conditions. Time is of the essence! In the meantime, the Biden Administration immediately froze funding to the UNRWA at the 1st sign of an as yet unproven accusation from the Israeli government, an organization that despite all of the problems & corruption & possible penetration by Hamas in Gaza is still the main facilitator for the flow of humanitarian aid to the Gazans. Can the UNRWA be replaced in this role? Sure. Is an alternative being set up now that the US & two dozen Western countries have frozen funding? Not that I can see. Meanwhile, weapons & munitions continue to flow unconditionally to Israel so that they can be used in Gaza, or potentially another front in Southern Lebanon against Hezbollah.
Hoping that a Dem President is playing 6-dimensional chess in secret will always end in disappointment. There is no 6-dimensional chess.
Geminid
@Paul in KY: The objective is not to eradicate Hamas, but rather to end their control of Gaza, which is not so far-reaching a goal.. That could end with the evacuation of Hamas leaders and fighters to Algeria.
This has been proposed by Saudi Arabia as part of a more comprehensive plan.. The Saudis brokered a similar evacuation iduring the First Lebanon War in the early 1980s. That time it was Yassir Arafat and the PLO that were evavuated to Tunisia.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: That war did not exactly cover Israel in glory, & in fact was the start of Israel acting as a militarist hegemon in the region.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: I think the ‘real’ objective (at IDF level) is to eradicate. Netanyahoo may not want that as Hamas helps his Likudnicks stay in power, but within the IDF, not many prisoners are taken…
Geminid
@Paul in KY: The IDF is taking prisoners, but there is not a reliable count of how many, and how many are actual fighters. And it’s hard to tell, even from 3rd-party “war tracker” sites, how this war is going except that Israel has steadily expanded its position in central Gaza, in and around Khan Younis. But they had to reinforce their troops in Northern Gaza to retake areas they thought were cleared.
Eradicating Hamas may be as one Israeli critic put it, a “Sysiphian task.” And there is a growing belief that Hamas’s hostages will not come back alive except through a ceasefire along the lines of last December’s.
This adds to the pressure for a ceasefire which is coming from Israel’s allies. The Qatari proposal is good because they structured it in a way that could lead to a more permanent solution to this war. That might end up like the one proposed by the Saudis back in December, which I thought had a lot of merit.
Kay
@Geminid:
Next week. Always next week. Why wouldn’t Israel just keep putting it off and do whatever the hell they want in Gaza? What is stopping them? What is the incentive?
The Right in Israel don’t want Biden to win anyway- they’ll be actively working against his relect. They probably already are. There were two countries who supported Trump after he was elected – Russia and Israel. You keep telling me there’s this huge bloc of moderate or liberal Israelis but as far as I can tell they have absolutely no power.
I don’t think it matters. Democrats other than Biden will recognize the reputational and/or political risk and rein Biden in. And thank fucking God for them. Joe Biden seems to have his head up his ass on Israel. Thank God for checks and balances and the dissenting Dems in the Senate.
Kay
@Geminid:
Next week. Always next week. Why wouldn’t Israel just keep putting it off and do whatever the hell they want in Gaza? What is stopping them? What is the incentive?
The Right in Israel don’t want Biden to win anyway- they’ll be actively working against his relect. They probably already are. There were two countries who supported Trump after he was elected – Russia and Israel. You keep telling me there’s this huge bloc of moderate or liberal Israelis but as far as I can tell they have absolutely no power.
I don’t think it matters. Democrats other than Biden will recognize the reputational and/or political risk and rein Biden in. And thank fucking God for them. Joe Biden seems to have his head up his ass on Israel. Thank God for checks and balances and the dissenting Dems in the Senate.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: I sure hope they have a ceasefire established pronto. On the prisoners, think those are just suspected sympathizers, pissed off Palestinians, caught-in-wrong-placers. Actual Hamas probably get the fate captured SS got back in WWII. My dad said they were very rarely taken prisoner (even when surrendering).
Maybe they keep them to be interrogated on whereabouts of hostages. Then are shot ‘while trying to escape’.
Kay
It’s really not suprising to those of us who are active in the Democratic Party that younger and more liberal Democrats don’t support the corrupt, far Right Israeli government.
Why the hell would they? It’s just another far Right country to them. Israel has been far Right their entire adult lives. They think WE (older people) have an unrealistic and romanticized view of Israel. They think THEY have an accurate take. Are they wrong?
Miss Bianca
@NotMax: No, Prince’s name change was most likely a deliberate ploy to fuck with his record company in court.
Just like Van Halen’s infamous “brown M & M” clause in their contract was intended to demonstrate that the promoters had actually *read* their contract carefully enough to grok that VH’s road show consisted of fifty or sixty tons of equipment, and that the venue needed to be able to accommodate that.
ETA: At least, according to David Lee Roth, who stated in his autobiography that if the band *didn’t* see that the bowl of M & Ms was on the table, with the brown ones removed, that there might be some serious trouble ahead with other aspects of the show.
Kay
@Geminid:
If they’re close to a deal then why is Israel requesting massive amounts of weapons – which they will get- either from Democrats or Republicans, the only difference is Democrats will tack on some aid to civilians and Republicans won’t.
Why are they demanding 10 billion in offensive weaponry if they’re close a ceasefire deal? What is that for? Why are they provisioning for a long offensive in Gaza? If they’re close to a ceasefire and since Gaza is essentially rubble they shouldn’t need 10 billion in offensive arms, right?
Is the US also on the hook to rebuild Gaza? So we’re paying to turn it into rubble and then we’ll pay again to rebuild it? That’s not “a plan” – it’s insanity.
Geminid
@Kay: Israel has had a right-center governments most of this century. From June 2021 through December of 2022 they had a coalition government comprised of parties from left to right-center. Few Americans paid attention because the Bennett/Lapid government didn’t blow up a lot of Palestinians and they didn’t make any progress towards a two-state solution either.
The government Netanyahu formed after the November, 2022 election is in fact a far-right government, but I don’t think the ones before were. But I’m not surprised people think they were because Americans are not very interested in foreign matters even when they care strongly about them.
Geminid
@Kay: Israel isn’t requesting massive amounts of new weapons. That $14 (or 19?) billion dollar supplemental appropriation is to pay for the massive amounts of weapons we’ve already shipped to them. So it’s not a signal that Israel intends to wage this war longer at the intensity of the first 120 days.
You’re blowing off the idea of a ceasefire, but you also say you really want one. Maybe the one proposed does not meet your requirements, or maybe you’ve thrown in the towel, but the nations in that region do not have that luxury and they are trying hard to bring one about. I’m just reporting on what they are doing, and if you want to dismiss this as “pure hope” that is your problem, not mine.
Paul in KY
@Kay: I’m pretty sure that Israel does not (at present time) want a ceasefire. I think they’ve consigned the hostages to whatever fate they will get.
Geminid
@Kay: You asked about whether the US was on the hook to pay for rebuilding Gaza, then you jumprd to the conclusion we will just so you could have another thing to get mad at Joe Biden about!
Again, if you are really interested there are various proposals out there for rebulding Gaza. The Gulf Arabs have the money and they have expressed their willingness, but only if Hamas is neutralized. They think that Western nations were fools to let Hamas steal so many billions of aid money and they’re not going to repeat that mistake.
Geminid
@Paul in KY: When you say “Israel” do you mean elements of the current government, or the general populace? Because there is a strong popular movement in Israel in favor of a ceasefire and exchange of Hamas hostages for Israeli prisoners. If Hamas assents to the Qatari ceasefire proposal there will be intense pressure on the Israeli government to accept it, from both inside and outside the country. Mossad chief David Barnea has signed off on the basic framework already, and Barnea was negotiating on behalf of his government.
Kay
@Paul in KY:
Here’s what I learned in 25 years of negotiations- when people want a deal they manage to make one and if they DON’T want a deal the best intermediary/mediator in the world can’t help them.
I don’t think Ukrainians will ever forgive Russians and I also don’t think Palestinians or Israelis will ever forgive the other. There’s too many dead, too many trangressions, too many decades of resentment and hatred. The “two state solution” is an absolute pipedream. If it was ever going to happen it would have happened decades ago when Israel had a normal liberal democracy instead of this corrupt one man + religious extremists rule. I have more respect for hawks who at least are proposing something that might happen – Israel takes Gaza.
That’s tragic for Israel but call me selfish- I’m not willing to let them take the United States down with them. We have our own lunatics to beat. We can’t afford Joe Biden’s Israel pandering.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: The government
Kay
@Geminid:
I understand the Gulf Arabs are in favor of this shitshow. You understand why I don’t find that alliance appealing or a hopeful sign for liberal democracy. Telling me “these other anti democratic authoritarian states also back the Gaza bombing out of pure self interest” is not good news to me. I’m no fan of them either. I have no use for religious extremists of any stripe, whether they are “settlers” or fundie Christians or Muslims. I think all of those groups are incompatible to liberal democracies and if they get too much power nations die. The only reason they haven’t harmed the US more than they have is we’re giant and diverse and they never exceed 20%. Israel is what? 9 million people? They can’t survive as a liberal democracy with such a huge group of fundie religious in such a small country. It doesn’t work anywhere.
Paul in KY
@Kay: A Palestinian state will only happen when Israel allows it to happen. Thus I agree with you that it will probably never happen.
Geminid
@Paul in KY: One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of people 5,000 miles away dismiss the prospect of a Palestinian state, while people and nations who are closer to the conflict and have a much larger stake in the outcome keep working for one.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: Am I wrong when I say the Palestinians will only get their state when Israel agrees to give it one (i.e. allows it to happen)?
Manyakitty
@zhena gogolia: thank both of you. It’s exhausting to try to inject any complexity into this morass.
Geminid
@Paul in KY: No, you are correct in saying that a Palestinian state requires Israel’s agreement. But I think you are wrong to say a Palestinian state will never happen as if you know this to be a fact when it’s only a prediction. Like I say, nations and people closer to the conflict are working hard on one and they know everything you or I know about the situation. Actually, a lot more.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: I’m just being truthful. Israel will never give them a state unless they act like a neighbor that won’t keep trying to whup on them. Ipso facto, that means that Palestinian govs and people will have to be good (i.e. non-violent, even when provoked) for a number of years. Do you think they can do that?
Geminid
@Paul in KY: Ask me that in 2026. Feelings are running high right now on both sides. Minds on both sides need to change, and that takes time. Minds on both sides need to change, and that takes time. But it is in Palestinians interest to have self-rule, and they’ll get plenty of help from the Gulf states, the US and Europe if they choose a peaceful path. Real help like investment, not just the humanitarian assistance that has sustained the Gazan refugees since 1948.
Establishing a Palestinian state is in Israel’s self-interest as well. Former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon made this case in the Haaretz piece that was repeated here a a few Sundays ago. They’ll need new leadership, but that is coming this year.
In the short run though, they all need a ceasefire along the lines proposed by Qatar. It may be only a first step, but it’s a badly needed one.