I disagree strongly with my esteemed colleague’s anti-denial polemic, not just because I think it’s silly to worry that our commenters hurt some other blogger’s precious fee-fees (though I do) but also because I get sick of being told that I have to admit things that I don’t even believe. Leave that for Charles Lane, you know? This is an independent blog, not the Aspen Ideas festival, and I’ll admit whatever the fuck I feel like admitting.
Whenever anyone starts tsking-tsking about the evils of denial, I think of this quote from Michael Chabon’s “Wonder Boys“:
I supposed she was exhibiting what people nowadays refer to, with crushing disapproval, as denial. It’s always been hard for me to tell the difference between denial and what used to be known as hope.
Nom de Plume
It’s got nothing to do with “denial”. It has everything to do with not giving oneself completely over to emotion and abandoning reason. Sullivan is making a fucking ass of himself, period. I don’t care if he’s an “old queen”. He’s acting like an hysterical old fool, period.
Ben (the other one)
Although I like the “I got this” theme, it seems to me that the more sensible thing to do if you’re afraid Romney’s gaining is to actually do something about it. Like going down to a campaign office and volunteering. It ain’t rocket science.
Michael
The thousands of people Gallup polls must also be in denial. How else to explain the evaporation of Mitt’s bounce?
beltane
Abandon all hope might be a great slogan for the gates of hell but it has no place in politics whatsoever. Panic is a purely self-defeating emotional response that should be snuffed out wherever and whenever it raises it’s silly head (is there ever a situation that is actually improved by panicking?).
I think the proper response to concern trolls is to agree with them. Yes, we’re doomed, it’s all over. Now go play in traffic.
piratedan
Thought this was interesting…..
it’s a GOS link but gives some insight into AZ and the Latino vote trending:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/10/1142609/-Why-Arizona-may-be-the-surprise-of-2012-the-big-Latino-vote-that-you-didn-t-see-coming
JenJen
Word.
The Moar You Know
I like this.
beltane
@Nom de Plume: I would hate to see Sully during an actual emergency like a fire or something. Chesley Sullenberger he is not.
kindness
@piratedan: Sheriff Joe will be doing everything he can to ‘monitor’ those voting booths there too:
Joe: Yo boys! Bring the cuffs! I got another one!
Voter: Escusa me por favor, what have I done wrong?
Joe: When they said you were a Democrat.
ranchandsyrup
I’m in the Bernard (can I call him Nard Dog? I can? Cool.) is concern trolling camp.
OT, but the title reminded me of one of my favorite albums by Low: I Can Live in Hope. Also, too, there is a song called Fear on the album. Trippy, man. Check ’em out.
piratedan
@kindness: Joe has his own worries, he couldn’t even get the endorsement of the local paper (Az Republic) which is notoriously R leaning.
Raven
FUCK SULLY, WHO CARES? Goddamn.
Brachiator
Hope. Despair. Whatever.
It’s about getting out the vote.
gogol's wife
@The Moar You Know:
Yes, it’s a great quotation. Thank you, DougJ, for all your posts over the last couple of days. Seeing the ActBlue thermometer always cheers me up, even if I’m an old lady who has to send checks by USPS.
The Red Pen
This is good news for McCain.
dan
“It’s always been hard for me to tell the difference between denial and what used to be known as hope.”
Ah yes, but that goes the other way, too.
Metrosexual Manichean Monster DougJ
@gogol’s wife:
Thanks!
Culture of Truth
As the man once said, don’t boo, vote
Shawn in ShowMe
@Brachiator</a
Interesting GOTV strategy.
smintheus
Or in this case, it has everything to do with reality. Predicating your analysis on a plunge in poll numbers that has not actually occurred (see Gallup) is to join the media’s alternate reality.
Culture of Truth
This is an independent blog, not the Aspen Ideas festival
Clearly. Lots of whine but no cheese
Phil
@ranchandsyrup: great album, great song
JenJen
@Raven:
I know, right?! Jesus. Didn’t we used to file Daily Dish under “Blogs we monitor and mock as needed”?
eemom
lemme try to put this tactfully: there is a subset of your esteemed colleagues here on this blog who just kind of flat out suck.
Djur
Sent some money to the Kenyan Usurper yesterday.
I’d volunteer, but I live in a city (Portland, OR) that would be safe for Obama if he ate a baby on live television, and my work schedule makes it pretty impossible for me to travel to volunteer.
I will be in a swing state (CO) the week before the election, but, you know… on business. And I presume Denver, being a city, is probably pretty pro-Obama.
I don’t think I know anyone I could even try to convince — there’s only a handful of Republicans in my extended family and I’m not in touch with them at all. Even the more sparty Naderoid progressives I know are 100% behind Obama this cycle.
Joel
I’m with Herm Edwards, Ozzie Guillen, and Mike Tyson here.
? Martin
Wait, there’s two things at play here which represent four cases, not two:
1A: Obama had a good night and as a result he’s better than even odds to win reelection.
1B: Obama had a good night but in spite of that he’s better than even odds to lose reelection.
2A: Obama had a bad night but in spite of that he’s better than even odds to win reelection.
2B: Obama had a bad night and as a result he’s better than even odds to lose reelection.
We can debate the performance issues differently from the effect on the race issue. Factually, I think we need to assert that the debate went poorly for Obama, based not only on almost everyone’s first hand analysis, but also the measured effect in the polls. So, we’re largely in agreement that we’re in either 2A or 2B here.
Sully is in 2B camp – he believes the bad night has no chance of being redeemed in the VP debate, the next two presidential debates, and everything else that will happen in the next month. Many Republicans are in this camp as well because they never believed the polls to begin with and always believed Romney would win.
Most people are in the 2A camp – Obama did poorly, but he’s still winning and is still likely to win. If we take Nate Silver and other analysts at their profession, they agree.
Some are in the 1A camp – Romney rubbed them the wrong way and appreciated that Obama didn’t lie to the audience for 90 straight minutes.
I’m sure someone is in the 1B camp, but I’m at a loss to point to any specific individual.
We don’t need to deny that Obama did poorly to assert that Obama will see a natural recovery from this position – whether through better debate performances or through other means.
Violet
Thank you. Yes. This.
flukebucket
Made me think of this
Djur
@eemom: Some commenters, too.
lacp
Where is David Brooks now that we need him?
Brian R.
@Ben (the other one):
This. A million times, this.
If you think you’ve done your part by bitching about things on a blog, guess again. Get out there and get to it.
Raven
@Violet: Or, “everyone must believe in something, I believe I’ll go fishing”!
Thoreau
dedc79
There are two more debates so the more important issue is whether Obama and his campaign understand they need a better performance the next time around. They appear to have gotten that message.
Violet
Oh, and for anyone interested, Andrew Sullivan has a “Why New York City totally sucks” post up today. Apparently he moved there a few weeks ago. In the middle of the craziest parts of the campaign. And he’s suffering with first world problems like internet service that slows down off and on. He had to go to the Daily Beast offices to watch the debate. Quelle horror! No wonder he’s extra cranky. He’s had to move and HIS INTERNET IS SLOW! I don’t think he begins to understand just how entitled and pampered he sounds.
And then there’s this:
WTF does that mean? What’s a “squeegee hotspot”? And who keeps their wifi open anyway? That’s just asking for trouble.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I quit reading BF’s posts a while ago (thankfully, there haven’t been too many) because they always seem to include some snotty condescension directed at the bulk of the commenters here. This time he led off with it, which I assume was deliberate. I find that kind of willful trollery odd, but I assume Finel tells himself he likes to “take people out of their comfort zones” or “challenge the group think”, or some other euphemism for “be an asshole”. But I remind myself it’s not my blog, I’m a self-invited guest, Cole wants him here for some reason, and I move on.
@Nom de Plume: and that “quit watching ESPN” line? Fuck him. He’s melted down back to his ‘fifth columnist’ days.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
In case you aren’t reading the other thread down to the bitter dregs, commentor lethargytartare unearthed a very telling bit of info and posted it as comment 221. I won’t quote it, just go read it.
Good job lethargytartare.
lamh35
Gallup Increases Cell-Phone Respondents In Tracking Polls To 50 Percent
It’s was already 40% but increased to 50% now. Wonder if that 10% will matter? I don’t have anything concrete, but I have a feeling that Obama has a large pocket of supporters who have no landline and cell phone only. I am one of those people and I know for a fact my sisters are too and a lot of my younger family only have cell phones. My older family members still believe in landlines as well, but few of them have both.
Brachiator
@? Martin:
Ah, back to the hope thing.
We can assert whatever we wish. It’s up to Obama to actually do whatever he needs to do, to recover, if he can.
JPL
@Djur: The President needs over 50 percent of the vote nationally. Make sure that everyone you know votes. The only reason I’m voting in GA is to make sure my vote counts on the national level. Also, too we always have whacky amendments.
taylormattd
Doug, it saddens me deeply to tut-tut at you like this.
But only a Manchurian Monster seeking to drone debate loss-realists to death would write something like this.
Shawn in ShowMe
@? Martin:
Is there an option 3A — that the debate was a nothing-burger for the majority of the viewing audience but an adrenaline rush for the 27% and white male concern trolls?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Violet:
That’s a homeless hotspot which, without you asking, runs out and boosts your wifi while you are stopped at a red light and then demands a payment.
SiubhanDuinne
@? Martin:
Thank you. That was nice and clear. I like matrices.
geg6
@eemom:
Seriously.
As for how Doug sees things, I’m right there with him. I watched the debate on CSPAN last week, knew it wasn’t O’s finest hour, but went on with life and work and volunteering with OFA.
The next thing I know is that all the liberals and not-so-liberal Obama allies are running around with their hair on fire screaming about the worst debate performance in the history of presidential debates. Now, I vividly remember Reagan’s 1984 Altzheimer’s debate, so I was like WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT? I didn’t see what they saw. I saw a hopped-up Mittens, talking a mile a minute, and spouting nothing but lies the whole time, when he wasn’t being rude to Jim Leher. Obama seemed tired and not that into it, but knowing what was going on internationally at the time, I really didn’t think much of it since he actually did talk a lot about his own policies, administrative victories, and hopes for the future.
I still don’t understand what they saw that I didn’t. I probably never will since I will never be a white male. But I’m tired of giving a shit about white males and their fee fees. And that, in the end, is what all this sturm und drang has been about. White men’s fee fees.
Fuck white men and fuck their fee fees. They couldn’t stand in the shoes of a racial minority or woman for five minutes before breaking down and crying for their mommies.
Turgidson
@? Martin:
Well said. It’s not denial or Obotism to acknowledge the debate was a loss, while also pointing out that the sky, in fact, is not falling.
In an ideal world, it wouldn’t have even been a debate loss, because the lying liar would be punished for being a lying sack of shit liar. But we don’t live in that world. Obama realizes this, and I think he’ll be more effective in the next ones. As will Joe, as long as he can avoid either getting fed up with the Granny Starver’s bullshit or saying something weird that leads the post-game coverage.
taylormattd
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: HAHAHAHAHAHA.
But you know, one of these days, the sky may actually be falling.
Shakespeare
Let’s see, since the debate Sully has called Obama “arrogant,” says he watches too much sports, and suggests was too lazy to prepare for the debate.
Um, yeah.
It’s a short road from The Bell Curve to “Where da white wimmin at?”
taylormattd
@geg6: +1
beltane
@Violet: One of the fun things about NYC is that you can watch the debate with your friends at a bar. Or even at their apartments. Was the Daily Beast office the only place in NYC where one could watch the debate? Where did everyone else watch it?
cckids
@Nom de Plume:
Yep. I don’t care if he’s as straight & manly as James Bond, he’s acting like a hysterical drama queen. I’ve been a Girl Scout leader for years, and a troop of 11-year old girls confronted with the realities of pit toilets have nothing on Sully’s reaction this past week.
Suffern ACE
Our elections are just too damn long. Obama needs to go duck hunting. Romney needs to get his ass in a tank. A rabbit needs to attack Ryan and Biden needs to…heck, stumble down stairs or something. Or talk about his dog Fala. I don’t care.
Shakespeare
“Mitt’s a liar” won’t work.
When was the last time ANYONE in elective office was punished for lying?
Bill Clinton.
Who, right now, is the most popular living politician in America.
Obama & Co. need another tack besides, “Romney lies.” Most of America don’t see qualitative difference between Mitt’s lying and generic pol truth-shading.
JPL
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Thank you, thank you for that link. I bypassed that post today.
Bernard Finel
You don’t have to admit anything. That’s true. But I sure as shit hope that Obama’s advisers have better instincts on this than you, mistermix, Betty, and Imani do. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting it, and if you don’t see a problem in the polling and momentum over the past week, then you need a new set of glasses.
And, by the way, peeps, claiming that I just don’t get it because I’m, you know, white is pretty fucking weak.
Shakespeare
Bernard, since you have front page privileges, why not actual supported post–with video–showing how “Obama lost”?
I’ve not actually seen one from any of the left’s many many blog posts. Most seem to have taken their cue from Tweety and Sully and never looked back.
schrodinger's cat
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: But you can’t criticize him because calling him a drama queen (when he is running around with his invisible hair on fire about the debate and making doom and gloom pronouncements) is homophobic or so I was told in the post below.
Dave
@geg6: Geez…did every white guy run over your dog this morning? We aren’t all jackasses.
Bernard Finel
@ranchandsyrup: Dude,I’d pay you if you could get “Nard Dog” to be my permanent nickname.
Violet
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Oh, that’s good stuff. Excellent find, lethargytartare.
Joel
@Brachiator: Already happening, to some extent. A lot of things happen without intervention.
Metrosexual Manichean Monster DougJ
@Bernard Finel:
You think Obama’s advisers should sit around wondering if they’ve offended Andrew Sullivan somehow?
Joel
@Brachiator: Already happening, to some extent. A lot of things happen without intervention.
Shakespeare
Well, if you can call Sully a “drama queen,” then we can call Ann Romney a “bitch,” right?
Really? Why not?
Djur
@JPL: Yep. I’m voting, everyone I know is voting. There’s a fairly well-contested mayoral race here, and even if we didn’t want to vote for Obama (I do) it will be a pleasure to vote against Romney.
JenJen
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Great post, and I concur. Also, watching ESPN is the only thing that keeps me from freaking out and losing my shit over politics the way Sully has. He should give it a whirl.
GO REDS GO!!
schrodinger's cat
@Bernard Finel: Claiming that everyone should see the things the way you do and if they don’t they are in denial is pretty weak too.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bernard Finel: I’m genuinely curious. Was your first paragraph of that post meant to be ‘provocative’?
geg6
@Bernard Finel:
Perhaps, then, your problem is that you are both white and male. And about 10 years old, I’m thinking. Because you don’t get it.
And it’s not weak when your entire last sentence is a fucking dog whistle that’s so obvious that even my dog heard it.
Joel
@Bernard Finel: This is classic armchair quarterbacking. As a Patriots fan, I’ve seen my share.
Spatula
Yeah, right. BJ has become an Obama/DNC propaganda affiliate.
Which is why DougJ and the Kool Kids are reacting so negatively that a front pager had the temerity to deviate from the approved line of thought.
But Please note that Bernard and Freddie continue to have Cole’s full support here. Hmmmm…
beltane
@Shakespeare: I actually call her the C word in private because I’m a just mean old bitch.
JPL
@Djur: My analysis was wrong though. The President could end up with seventy percent of the vote and Cantor, Boehner and others would still treat him poorly.
Violet
@Shakespeare:
I think the “Romney debates himself” video that’s been going around is a good place to start. Doesn’t say “Mitt lies” but sets up the observation, using only video of Mitt, that he says different things to different audiences all the damn time. A series of videos along those lines–one for abortion, one for taxes, one for 47%, one for foreign policy, etc. would work wonders. “What else did Mitt contradict himself (lie) about?” would be the talking point after that.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@geg6:
I’m a white male and I don’t understand what they saw either. The debate was a blizzard of disconnected statistics, just-so-stories and arm-waving. Anybody who is of open mind and in possession of some store of factual info would probably have come away thinking that Obama was tired and Romney was bullshitting. Anybody who is of open mind and NOT in possession of some store of factual info would have been bored out of their skull. If there was one thing the debate did NOT have any of, it was drama.
Apparently the high-info crowd (so-called) decided they desperately needed to make up that particular deficit and doing so was a national emergency.
Personally I think that the set of female crowned royalty and anybody who has anything to do with Drama, they collectively are owed an apology at this point.
geg6
@Dave:
Based on the evidence presented in my 53 years on this earth, I’d have to say that 98% of them are. I’m willing to put you in the 2% who aren’t once you prove it to me.
cckids
@geg6:
White men (like my spouse) seem to have been MUCH more impressed by Romney’s performance than the rest of us. He despises Romney, but thought he came off very well. When I said I thought he looked like a bullying, lying weasel, the spouse didn’t get it. Definate Mars/Venus moment.
RinaX
@Bernard Finel:
LOL. I’ll just say that there are many reasons why I think you don’t get it. This comment is one of them.
taylormattd
@Bernard Finel: Hey Bernard, care to respond to, you know, the million polls showing Romney’s “bounce” being gone, or the polls showing Obama still winning in Virginia, Florida, and Ohio?
How’s about you do us all a favor and keep your despair porn / terrible predictions to yourself?
Or maybe at a minimum, decline to claim people are “in denial”, when in reality, you might just be stupidly wrong, like you were in 2008 when you wrote this:
tworivers
Pre-debate, I didn’t think there was much need for hope with regard to the Presidential election. I thought Obama had it in the bag. As a result, there was no need to hope the election would go well – it was basically a done deal. Now? I think Obama still will win, but the race has gotten too uncomfortably close for my liking.
I don’t think most people here are in denial about this, though. People are just reacting in different ways to the tightening of the race. Yes, some people are engaging in too much hand-wringing, and yes, the primary benficiary of this hand-wringing is Romney.
The debate loss can be constructive if it leads to increased resolve, both on the part of Obama (who needs to step it up for the next debate) and his supporters.
ranchandsyrup
@Bernard Finel: I’ll do what I can. I require one standard romney unit ($10K) for every person I convert. Or you could explain how this differs from your Rev. Wright chicken little-ing and I’ll do it for free.
JPL
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: When Mitt said that the President hadn’t increased drilling on public land, that was the time I wish the President had mentioned the beauty of the Grand Canyon or public land that is open to hunting and fishing. I know it was a nit but that’s when I was disappointed.
trollhattan
@Nom de Plume:
When Sully is busying himself praising the Ryan Plan as a “serious, adult conversation about debt” he’s a Tory Git. When he’s doing a Marcus Bachmann-Chicken Little imitation, he’s hysterical.
Both Sullys have the same prominant platform from which to blather. Both Sullys are unhelpful, just in different ways.
Shakespeare
@beltane: And I call my boyfriend a f*ggot when I’m fucking his ass, but that’s a private thing. See the difference?
Either we should use gendered, racist, homophobic, and sexist slurs in our public discourse, or we shouldn’t.
I think we should not.
So stop calling Sully a drama queen. He’s a Chicken-Little doomsaying overreacting self-absorbed white-privilege misogynist fascist asshole.
That about do it?
FlipYrWhig
@Spatula: Maybe John can hire you to paint an ugly group portrait honoring all the front pagers.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us? (formerly MarkJ)
@ranchandsyrup: The post title is actually a lyric from a John Hyatt song (although Bonnie Raitt’s version is definitive as even John would probably admit)- “Thing Called Love” is the title of the song.
muddy
@Bernard Finel:
I don’t know why you say this, when Obama and his team *have* admitted it wasn’t that great. Should they have come out in sackcloth and ashes, weeping and begging for forgiveness?
Suffern ACE
@Violet: Wait until he finds out how the internet slows down to a crawl on Sunday when football is on and that your AT&T 4G network disappears on nice Saturdays when people are out strolling around. It’s practically third world in the outrageous indignities we put with.
Chyron HR
@Spatula:
On the other hand, DougJ and the Kool Kids are obviously renegade hackers defacing the site and John Cole is powerless to stop them. Hmmmm…
The Moar You Know
@cckids: Not this white guy. Every time Mitt starts talking, I reach for my wallet to make sure it’s still there. I get “used car salesman”, “total weirdo”, “religious cultist” and “possible basement full of dead young boys” vibes off that guy every time he opens his mouth, and those vibes intensify when he thinks he’s doing something right.
What I DO get is that he alpha-maled the shit out of Obama, and a lot of men respond to that. Make of that what you will.
Joel
@Bernard Finel: Bernard, I like you, but people are annoyed with you because you’re acting like a sports radio caller. That’s your right, but all those idiots who were calling for their team to play Chris Simms or Michael Bishop over their starters looked like fucking idiots once these backups washed out of the league not a few years later.
Joel
@Bernard Finel: Bernard, I like you, but people are annoyed with you because you’re acting like a sports radio caller. That’s your right, but all those guys who were calling for their team to play Chris Simms or Michael Bishop over their starters looked like fucking idiots once these backups washed out of the league not a few years later.
Maude
@Bernard Finel:
And I sure as hell hope that you understand what is going on in the world.
The day of the debate, Syria launched a mortar over the border into Turkey, killing civilians.
I sure as hell hope you understand that Turkey is a part of NATO and know what the NATO countries have agreed upon if one of us is attacked.
We have a president who handles serious matters.
Turkey brought down a Syrian plane today.
Oh, and don’t forget Libya.
Vote for Romney and be done with it.
John M. Burt
I am currently working at a call center. A large part of my work is polling people in places like Florida and Arizona. A lot of the people I talk with are quite disgusted with the push polling I am obliged* to do, and definitely are not buying it. Some of it may even be turning people off who might otherwise have voted GOP. Not that I think this counts against the bad karma I am accumulating, but as I said, I am obliged.
* If anyone would like to help me get out of that obligation, it would help if you would go to Amazon and buy some of my books.
JPL
@Shakespeare: I definitely agree. It’s easy to disagree with Sully without name calling. One thing that has bothered me with some on the right is the name calling that our sitting President has to take. After all he is a communist, socialist, fascist, lazy, basketball player.
Whoops.. I forgot Marxist.
When I read arguments there are some words that turn me off.
Recent comments about a blog poster being white is one of them.
ranchandsyrup
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us? (formerly MarkJ): cool thx. I looked it up as well. I had Low on the brain so everything started to remind me of Low.
schrodinger's cat
I think this post debate freakout is due to the media so desperately wanting to create the horse race narrative, because that’s how they like to cover the Presidential elections. The purity trolls on our side are just latching on to it because it plays into their narrative of Obama. As for Andrew Sullivan, for all his claims of independence he is a creature of the Village.
Shawn in ShowMe
Bernard Finel:
Maybe we should pony up some funds to send you and Imani to the Spelman College Speaker series. Then each of you could write a report on what you thought of the speakers. I’m guessing the perceptions expressed in your reports would diverge quite a bit.
The Moar You Know
@Spatula: Very smart of him. If your cats don’t have a scratching post, they’ll start destroying everything in the house. Bernie and Freddie are the designated scratching posts.
geg6
@FlipYrWhig:
Just letting you know that I just dropped your internets into the mail and you should get them any day now.
taylormattd
@Shakespeare: Sully is a fucking drama queen, period.
And put the gay card away, because I have one too.
Edit: Also, if you think a straight using the phrase “drama queen” is in any way similar to a straight person calling someone a “faggot” you are nuts.
Betty Cracker
@flukebucket: LOL! Thanks! I needed that!
FlipYrWhig
@Bernard Finel:
Here’s the problem with “momentum,” though. If you can lose momentum quickly, what’s the purpose of having it? It just means “things going well at present.” If it doesn’t predict the future, “momentum” and talk of momentum is just wanking.
SatanicPanic
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I know Romney was supposed to “humanize” himself and he didn’t. He came off like a jerk. I would have loved to have seen Obama somehow counter it, but anyone who’s ever been steamrolled by a sociopath knows it’s not that easy.
DPS
@Bernard Finel:
I think that his advisers have a pretty clear idea of the situation.
Tehanu
@beltane:
We need a Like button. I love this comment!
The Bearded Blogger
@John M. Burt: May I reccomend subtly sabotaging your employer?
Also: No more discussing the debate, please. It’s like a fucking broken record.
beltane
The Guardian, which had been in full-blown “Obama is doomed” mode the past few days is now back to “Romney on the defense” mode. Oh, and Ann Romney was supposedly very out of touch and annoying on GMA but I find the whole show to be annoying and unwatchable so what would I know.
FlipYrWhig
@SatanicPanic: The whole freakout is basically this: “Dude, that guy who was bothering you… what was the matter with that guy? You should have told him off! That’s what I would have done!”
Betty Cracker
@Bernard Finel:
“You don’t have to admit anything. That’s true. But I sure as shit hope that Obama’s advisers have better instincts on this than you, mistermix, Betty, and Imani do. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting it, and if you don’t see a problem in the polling and momentum over the past week, then you need a new set of glasses.”
Um, excuse me? I don’t remember denying that Obama’s debate performance was sub-par (in fact, just the opposite). WTF are you calling ME out for?
ChrisNYC
Come on. What’s the use of having a political internet if not to provide a forum for people who just became Dems two seconds ago and/or cannot bring themselves to vote for Dems (it’s so icky!) to lecture the President and liberals generally about DOING IT WRONG.
Now, wake up and give up already!
sacrablue
@Brian R.: If you are in a safe blue state, you can phonebank to other states. Better yet, find a congressional campaign that’s a toss up or leaning blue. I live within driving distance of four such campaigns. I’m volunteering for one that is a 47/47 tie at the moment. It is a great stress reliever and prevents the rending of garments.
Jeff(the other one)
I think this quotation should sum up what Obama should be thinking:
after the first day of the battle of Shiloh:
taylormattd
@Bernard Finel:
Please tell me you at least see the irony in this statement.
I mean you, of all people, are claiming people have terrible instincts? Seriously?
Again, you wrote this in 2008:
sacrablue
@Brian R.: If you are in a safe blue state, you can phonebank to other states. Better yet, find a congressional campaign that’s a toss up or leaning blue. I live within driving distance of four such campaigns. I’m volunteering for one that is a 47/47 tie at the moment. It is a great stress reliever and prevents the rending of garments.
Culture of Truth
I’ve worked in politics for a long time. Admitting things on a blog does exactly nothing at all.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Oh waiter, more popcorn, please, I need to call my bookie. [Places large sum on Ms. Florida]
Jeff(the other one)
I think this quotation should sum up what Obama should be thinking:
after the first day of the battle of Shiloh:
Violet
@Tehanu:
No. No we do not need a Like button. No, no, no, no, no!
No!
JenJen
@Violet: The “Romney Debates Himself” should’ve been a major ad buy in Ohio, Florida and Virginia days ago. I really hope to see it pop up on television, because one thing I’ve noticed in Ohio is that when the Obama campaign uses Mitt’s own words against him, it seems to work. See: Mitt’s 47% speech ad; Mitt singing “America The Beautiful” ad.
Some good news to pass along to those of us who aren’t losing our shit: Over 60,000 Buckeyes have cast early in-person votes as of Tuesday. Early voting started a week ago yesterday and didn’t occur on Monday due to the Columbus Day holiday.
The Bearded Blogger
@schrodinger’s cat: I’d say, in soccer terms, Team Obama is one goal up and it’s the 70th minute, no red cards on either team, a couple of yellows for Romney. It’s a good place to be but it’s no time to be complacent.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@beltane: the lack of criticism of GMA for that retrograde stunt (Ladies, come bake cookies and talk about flowers, for the other ladies!) fucking galls me. Political spouses, especially these two, are full time surrogates, the ‘little lady’ model has been dead for forty years. to see the host of This Week, my contempt for the show and skepticism for the individual aside, giggling on the couch with Romney #1 spokesperson is disgusting.
trollhattan
@Violet:
Is there any way for me to like this comment?
The whole thumbs count deal is odd and lord knows, this ship can’t handle the technology load it already has. Scotty is always complaining his “circuits will be a puddle of lead.”
Eli-Victor Cruz-Manning
I guess the way Andy keeps pissing his pants, it’s probably a good time to invest in DEPENDS!
huckster
@Raven: Word
eemom
@Shakespeare:
This is a point I’ve been wanting to clarify since the
concern troll clusterfuckFinel thread below.I know that “queen” is an issue, but since when has “drama queen” been a homophobic slur? I always thought it referred to undue histrionics by anyone of any gender or sexuality.
trollhattan
Everybody watch this, nao!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwilbVYvUg&feature=player_embedded#!
Quick, before the server is crashed big-time.
Just Some Fuckhead
When lazy people blog.
danimal
Perhaps I’m lucky; I’m stupid enough to believe that Obama had a poor night AND it wasn’t the end of the world. If it wasn’t the debate, something would have happened to get the right enthused before election day, it’s virtually inevitable in a two-party system.
But while we’re reforming the circular firing squad, perhaps everyone has missed Mitt pivoting so hard to the center that his right wing is GUARANTEED to flip out in the next week or two. He’s bobbing and weaving with abortion, health care and taxes. For now, the GOP is giving him leeway, but if you think that will last, I have some beachfront property in the California desert for sale.
Mitt can only keep his coalition together with constant confusion and dissembling, and as people start to investigate his sales pitch, he’s bound to get hung up on the details. There isn’t a salesman in the world who can talk his way out of the box he’s nailed himself into.
Porco Rosso
I have to say that I enjoyed Finel’s piece in terms of how it accurately framed Romney as oily salesman.
I think there’s gold to be mined in that vein.
Linda Featheringill
I found this from Gallup rather soothing:
http://www.gallup.com/fvideo.aspx?i=8UkD-OvKkJQA4dSzYRP.iwaa
The video is about 3 minutes long and says that Romney’s bounce was short lived.
hep kitty
Who is panicking now, anyways? Besides Andrew Sullivan, I mean? There was some initial, understandably negative responses from some left-leaning pundits after the debates but not hearing that now. Is it just Sullivan who is still ranting or something? I’m confused as to how this got to be such a humongous deal to warrant several posts with hundreds of comments.
Altho, please feel free to post as many Andrew Sullivan-bashing posts as you like.
beltane
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It is weird to the point of being surreal. No offense to Ann Romney, but she is a former child-bride who has lived her entire life in Mormon Purdah. I don’t personally know of any woman, not even those of my grandmother’s generation, who has lived a life this sequestered from the outside world.
schrodinger's cat
@The Bearded Blogger: No time to be complacent, not till the election is won, but it is not the time for doom and gloom either. Its time to roll up your sleeves and get to work to get Obama reelected.
Joel
@Culture of Truth: Favorite fucking comment.
Joel
@Culture of Truth: Favorite fucking comment.
JenJen
@Culture of Truth:
Should be a blog quote. Should be the blog quote.
hep kitty
@danimal: Perhaps I’m lucky; I’m stupid enough to believe that Obama had a poor night AND it wasn’t the end of the world.
Linda Featheringill
Registered versus likely voters:
The folks that the Dems have registered everywhere wouldn’t be counted as likely voters. Dunno if they’ll actually vote and if there’s enough of them. But it’s a thought.
SatanicPanic
@FlipYrWhig: I know, and it sounds all easy until you’re face to face with someone with no human emotions. And they give you that creepy, piercing stare. Yikes, I hope I never have to experience that again, but I’m probably not that lucky
The Bearded Blogger
@schrodinger’s cat: Exactly, and we’re still up on the scoreboard
Mike G
The latest from whiny-ass titty baby Jack Welch:
These precious buttercups are so used to having everyone kiss their ass and praise the smell of their farts.
One wonders how Welch handled GE employees who questioned his Great Pronouncements From On High when he was CEO. They’d be lucky if all they suffered was some verbal negativity.
Culture of Truth
Pizza Hut is promising free pizza for life to whoever dares to ask Barack Obama and Mitt Romney the most burning question of the day: sausage or pepperoni?
Chyron HR
@Culture of Truth: “Or”?
The Moar You Know
@lamh35: I’m 46. Now, granted, I live in Southern California, where we’re always twenty years ahead of the rest of the nation, but I know one person – one – out of a couple of hundred friends my age or younger who has a landline. And frankly, there’s not a lot of older people I know who have them left either, the ones that do use them for the alarm company, and there’s no phone attached to it to answer.
A poll running at only 50% cell phone respondents is going to be seriously biased towards older folks who don’t leave the house much.
trollhattan
@eemom:
Pretty much, not to mention my dog (who can go from sleeps-20-hours/day to “AAAH there’s another DOG ON MY STREET!” in three nanoseconds). The daughter gets “drama princess” just because.
Brachiator
@cckids:
Maybe this is part of the problem that some people are having. Obama should not have let Romney get away with any of his bullying antics.
@The Moar You Know:
Good point. Unfortunately, this reminds me of Al Gore’s sighs and odd physical mannerisms during the Bush Gore debate. Distracting, theoretically should not have made a difference, but it did.
All this stuff makes me glad that I missed the debate.
The Bearded Blogger
@Culture of Truth: Pizza Hut is RW… part of their goal is to delegitimize the political process altogether.
Hill Dweller
@danimal: Obama didn’t have a great debate, but the most pressing issue for our side is Willard’s attempt to be a moderate. If Willard can successfully fool the country into thinking he is a moderate, it is going to cause far more problems for the Obama campaign than a bad debate.
Willard’s lies have to be our focus. It’s the best way to undermine his opportunistic transformation.
Spatula
@FlipYrWhig:
Ahhhh…you jealous John didn’t commission anything from you?
You mad, bro?
huckster
@muddy:
Yes. Bernard’s sensibilities demand it
Bernard Finel
@taylormattd: Hehe, well, that wasn’t my best moment in prognostication. Though in fairness, you might have noted this was in the midst of the PRIMARY fight, which was, indeed, a close run thing.
burnspbesq
Yes, I know, I am the person who constantly preaches that it’s silly to read too much into how oral arguments in the Supreme Court play out.
That said, if you want to indulge yourself and have a meltdown over something that hasn’t happened yet, feel free to have a meltdown over the impending disappearance of race as a factor in college admissions decisions.
http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/10/argument-recap-will-grutter-be-reshaped/
Spatula
@The Moar You Know:
More like a Bitching Post around here.
Meg
Did you guys watch last night’s Daily Show about Mitt being a wizard who promises you everything for not a nickle?
I particularly like the part with the campaign speech from FDR, who also faced a snake oil salesman and won.
cckids
@The Moar You Know: I guess that is what I was trying to convey; that whole alpha-male shit that seems, for whatever reason, to appeal to some. To me, any woman who finds that attractive, either on a political or personal level, needs psychiatric assistance. When I’m confronted by that “I’m in control, I’m the boss, just
listen toagree with me, and all will be well, it makes my skin crawl AND makes me want to throw things. Ugh.Bernard Finel
@Betty Cracker: My apologies. I assumed your post of the “I got this” meme was an endorsement of it.
? Martin
@Brachiator:
But it’s not hope – he’s still leading according to the polls. You can either assume that this level will hold or go up, or you can assume that he will fall further and wind up trailing.
Given that Obama has led solidly for an extended period of time, it’s fair to take that as a baseline which the polls will tend to gravitate back toward – that months of public opinion will take more than one event to wipe out. That tends to be how this actually works – whether it’s convention or debate bounces. They’re called bounces for a reason – they go up, and then back down again toward the baseline – either all the way or just part of the way where a new baseline emerges. We just don’t know yet, but standard behavior here is that the old trend will at least somewhat if not fully re-emerge.
muddy
@eemom: In offline use I have only ever heard women referred to as drama queens.
Spatula
@The Bearded Blogger:
As if the U.S. political system isn’t delegitimizing itself just fine as is.
Bernard Finel
@taylormattd: And if you are going to quote that snippet over and over, you might as well link to it so people can at least get the context.
It wasn’t about the Wright story, per se. It was about Wright’s self-indulgent publicity tour while the primaries were still going on.
Bernard Finel
@Brachiator: BTW, I thought he came off as a bullying, lying weasel as well. My point is that while people are repulsed by people like Romney, they are also, often, unfortunately influenced by them.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@The Moar You Know:
Between wrong number calls from drunks, calls from the side that you support begging for more money, calls telling you for the N+1th time that an election is coming (yes dear, I’ve heard there is an election coming up. Gosh, I never woulda thunk, huh?), pushpolls, robocalls, actual polls, telemarketing calls, and idiot relatives that want something, who the hell actually answers their phone any more, without CallerID’ing the hell out of the incoming call.
I suspect that at this point in the insanity what the pollers are really measuring is what fraction of the populace is gullible enough (or sufficently desperate to hear the sound of a human voice) to actually pick up the phone when it rings, in spite of the all-too-obvious downsides.
muddy
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I pick up so I can fuck with them in my answers. I have a lot of free time. Also no cell reception in the house so I have to maintain the landline.
WereBear
@John M. Burt: Okay, John, I did.
Now work a little harder on your cover art, I think it’s holding you back.
Will post review when I’m done…
Joel
@Bernard Finel: It is an endorsement. Have the last four years taught us nothing?
wrb
What’s with the manichean post title?
eemom
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
heh. Very well said.
Only time I ever even approach the phone to LOOK at the caller id is if it rings a second time after the vmail picks up, because my husband and kids know they have to call twice.
Kay
@? Martin:
Just to add, not everyone thought this was a slam dunk. I don’t know a single person here who thought Obama was going to win this state by ten points. Not one. Mitt Romney could drool and crawl around on the stage and he’d do better than that. The most optimistic, at any time, was “we might be up five”.
The week before Kasich won the 2010 governor’s race, Nate Silver had him at 75% to win. I went to a phone bank for Strickland and there were 40 people there. Is that “denial”? Are they all deluded? I don’t think so. I knew exactly what I was doing. I thought he had a 1 in 4 chance.
danimal
@Hill Dweller: I agree with you to a point. Willard’s lies are only important if they are used effectively. Whining about actuarial account balancing really appeals to me personally, but painting Willard Mitt as an oily salesman is going to hit the target. It’s not the lies, it’s what the lies tell you about the man.
shortstop
@Bernard Finel: I don’t think that “context” provides the mitigation you think it does.
James E. Powell
@muddy:
I have heard “drama queen” applied to men all my life. I have used it myself. If it’s sexist, I apologize. But it is fairly common for men to insult other men by saying they are feminine or like women in some way. And the more testosterone-soaked the work environment, the more common it is.
Shawn in ShowMe
@muddy:
There’s a pretty good reason. There’s a lot more men acting like drama queens than there used to be. Back in the day, men weren’t supposed to cry. Today, not only are men are crying, they’re crying over bullshit, not because they’re having war flashbacks or are mourning the death of a loved one.
Brachiator
@Shawn in ShowMe:
I blame Alan Alda.
huckster
But seriously, enough with the fucking debate threads already. A buncha twerpy republican fan-boys flinging poo at the teebee screen cause Rmoney was taking that “boy” down a peg or two is hardly cause for alarm. It was inevitable, shit, they been waiting four years for somebody to put that “boy” in his place. they all got the majik woodie as soon as it was clear that Rmoney wasn’t gonna fall flat on his face, and the post-polling reflects it. Goddamn-fucking-roll-up-in-a-goddamn-ball-fucking Democrats, Jesus, enough already.
Kane
We have been told for three and a half years on a daily basis that the primary issue of 2012 would be the economy. This was the narrative, this was the meme. Nothing else mattered.
But the economy has slowly turned around. There has been 31 consecutive months of job growth and 5.2 million new private sector jobs added. Unemployment recently fell to 7.8%, a 4-year low. One would think that this would be BIG freaking news, especially when the president’s opponent opposed every measure that helped drive the economy out of the ditch.
But apparently none of that matters now. No, the real issue of this campaign is debating a debate performance.
chopper
@Mike G:
LOL. oh, welch, you poor precious snowflake. tell me more about how 9/11 was an inside job and the gummint is out to silence you. and the jobs numbers are totes faked.
WereBear
She’s incredibly rich, too.
And yet she’s so unhappy.
Metrosexual Manichean Monster DougJ
@muddy:
I mostly use it to refer to men. And usually to sports figures.
Let’s face it, no one — gay or straight, man or woman — is a bigger drama queen than Brett Favre. If that makes me anti-man or anti-Cajun or whatever, so be it.
Brachiator
@Bernard Finel:
A lying, bullying weasel is not the same thing as a successul used car salesman, who are rarely openly bullying.
Romney’s shiny bluster masks fear and insecurity.
Again, the best example of this is the blustering faro dealer played by Billy Bob Thornton in Tombstone. Johnny Tyler’s bluster is good enough make most people cower and give him what he wants. But he backs down easily when challenged.
Romney’s like that, too.
lamh35
Obama Internal Polls Still Show Leads in Swing States
Paula
@burnspbesq:
Ugh … fucking …
See, that shit’ll happen no matter which fucktard gets elected president.
And, quite frankly, inevitable. Affirmative action never had a concrete answer for everyone (read: white folks) who don’t understand why, in a zero sum game, individuals (read: white folks) have to be “punished” for some abstract historical wrong they supposedly have nothing to do with. With thanks to the myth of meritocracy, which was never intensely interrogated even in the heyday of the civil rights era. Also, kudos to white privilege, which apparently includes never having to admit you have it despite ALL THE FUCKING HISTORICAL AND SOCIAL EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.
Brachiator
@? Martin:
Or you can not make any assumptions about polls and give time or money, or both, to help get the vote out.
This close to the election, there is no logical reason to get hung up on polls, and make hard assumptions based on them. That the polls look good is reassuring, but it not the same thing as actual voting.
I also recall that the LA Times poll predicting that Governor Davis would beat the recall was wrong, despite all the indices. This was bad polling technique, but that’s another story for another day.
And by the way, I note that Nate Silver appears on the BBC “math in life and the media” program More or Less and gives the nod to Obama.
But this is still a reasonable analysis with a significant degree of uncertainty, not a hard lock.
muddy
@Metrosexual Manichean Monster DougJ: The only thing I know about that guy is that he does not apparently know how to pronounce his name, or else he just goes with the mispronunciation so as not to have to keep telling people. Know a bunch of Favres here, they say it right. (don’t watch sports anymore) V is before R.
As for drama queen, I guess I don’t hang around with those guys, never heard it. And no one has said it to me. I would never be a drama queen anyway, if I were going to expend the energy I would be a drama goddess.
eclecticbrotha
I’m of the mind that Obama lost because it takes more than 90 minutes to refute the 90 lies your debate opponent is telling.
gelfling545
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: What is this “I’m not sure” donkey dust? Nobody is sure about anything until the votes are counted. Did someone ask him for a definitive pronouncement? He doesn’t say forthrightly “I don’t think so” he just weasels around. I hate that kind of thing. I also hate articles (Huffington was famous for this back when I still read it) that make dire predictions buffered by the word “may”. I was always tempted to comment “Or it may not. In that case, just forget the whole thing.” Just because people write about politics doesn’t mean they can’t just say what they mean.
Here endeth the first lesson.
gelfling545
@Dave: Certainly not, but the representative sampling on view in the public media does not promote the breed.
gwangung
World class athletes have amnesia. If they screw up one game, they blank their minds and enter the next game ready and usually able to do the job.
They just don’t dwell on it after it happens..
Obama’s world class. Sully (and a lot of the rest of us) simply aren’t/
taylormattd
@Bernard Finel: My apologies, I didn’t mean to take your prediction that Obama would lose in 2008 because of Wright out of context.
Jewish Steel
@wrb:
Zing!
MomSense
@Bernard
How many days shall we admit it and worry about it? It is a week later. Can we stop after 2 weeks?
This is absurd. Let’s just move on. Especially if you are a supporter of the President, you are doing more harm than good by choosing to be stuck on this.
MomSense
@Bernard
re:
@taylormattd: Hehe, well, that wasn’t my best moment in prognostication. Though in fairness, you might have noted this was in the midst of the PRIMARY fight, which was, indeed, a close run thing.
By the time this happened it was already mathematically impossible for Clinton to get enough delegates. Obama had already won.
Central Planning
Holy crap, I’ve been reading this blog long enough that DougJ is recycling post titles.
Kiril
@Metrosexual Manichean Monster DougJ: Louisiana checking in. Favre is not Cajun, for the record. He has some French in his family, like a lot of people along the coast. You might call him Creole, if anything.
Corner Stone
@Bernard Finel: Bernard, I get the sense that you’ve got a lot of snap regarding other actual real world items.
But you just don’t seem to be getting it here. You’re going to keep experiencing The Four Flavors of Obama Fans(tm) until you do.
Personally, I suggest you go full beehive and tell DougJ to shove it up his stupid fucking ass.
Bruce S
@geg6:
I saw essentially the same thing that you saw in the debate regarding Willard’s aggressive mendacity and Obama’s innate integrity. But it doesn’t matter, because I’m not the target audience for any of these debates. And I’m also not so oblivious to what impacts politics in this country to take umbrage at anyone who points out that this fluffed debate performance had some negative effects on the race – at least in the short term – because…uh…”WHITE MEN!” If you find yourself explaining why your guy did x, y or z in a debate, it means he screwed up. “WHITE MEN!” is a given, just like “THE MEDIA!” It’s childish to chalk up the problems with that debate performance to anyone but the candidate. That’s political reality.
Bruce S
@Bernard Finel:
“But I sure as shit hope that Obama’s advisers have better instincts on this than you, mistermix, Betty, and Imani do.”
That’s a given. No worries. Obama’s most intense “supporters” here wouldn’t last a minute among campaign professionals. They actually care about effective strategy, not their own personal “fee fees”, to use the term of art among that crowd.