Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Those who are easily outraged are easily manipulated.

the 10% who apparently lack object permanence

We do not need to pander to people who do not like what we stand for.

Democracy cannot function without a free press.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Fucking consultants! (of the political variety)

These days, even the boring Republicans are nuts.

America is going up in flames. The NYTimes fawns over MAGA celebrities. No longer a real newspaper.

“Alexa, change the president.”

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

There are times when telling just part of the truth is effectively a lie.

Dumb motherfuckers cannot understand a consequence that most 4 year olds have fully sorted out.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. do not touch it.”

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

“Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on.”

The press swings at every pitch, we don’t have to.

So very ready.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Not loving this new fraud based economy.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

You are here: Home / Europa, Europa

Europa, Europa

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Not that there’s anything wrong with that (via):

A day ahead of the papal conclave, faces at the scandal-struck Vatican were even redder than usual after it emerged that the Holy See had purchased a €23 million (£21 million) share of a Rome apartment block that houses Europe’s biggest gay sauna.

The senior Vatican figure sweating the most due to the unlikely proximity of the gay Europa Multiclub is probably Cardinal Ivan Dias, the head of the Congregation for Evangelisation of Peoples, who is due to participate in tomorrow’s election at the Sistine Chapel.

[….]

The sauna’s website promotes one of its special “bear nights”, with a video in which a rotund, hairy man strips down before changing into a priest’s outfit. It says Bruno, “a hairy, overweight pastor of souls, is free to the music of his clergyman, remaining in a thong, because he wants to expose body and soul”.

Reader Interactions

162Comments

  1. 1.

    Jerzy Russian

    Hollywood and all of the professional sports leagues can shut down now, as there is no more need for their entertainment products.

  2. 2.

    Corner Stone

    I thought The Independent was the UK’s version of The Onion?
    Otherwise I couldn’t believe the lede for that story was real.

  7. 7.

    Sad_Dem

    So, now that all the cardinals are in town, has the Rome Craigslist M2M section filled up with new ads? What’s Latin for NSA?

  9. 9.

    Zifnab

    @Jerzy Russian: For those of us that aren’t gay, Hollywood’s comic degree of ultra-machoism and the gladiator-esque exploits of shapely young sweaty men within the professional sports arena will remain very attractive.

  10. 10.

    Todd

    Just want to point out that it took the anglosphere media to dig that one up.

    In America, we’re subjected to pablum and a point-counterpoint panel consisting of Tweety, Ed Dionne and a USCCB priest arguing over a contraception mandate.

  12. 12.

    JGabriel

    Via DougJ @ Top:

    The senior Vatican figure sweating the most due to the unlikely proximity of the gay Europa Multiclub is probably Cardinal Ivan Dias, the head of the Congregation for Evangelisation of Peoples, who is due to participate in tomorrow’s election at the Sistine Chapel.

    “I swear to God, Jesus, and Holy Mary, I wasn’t in the gay club to ogle beautiful men and their hard glistening cocks! I was there to evangelize them!”

    Speaking of which: Evangeline. Love that Robert Quine lead guitar riff.

    .

  15. 15.

    Jerzy Russian

    @BGinCHI:

    Maybe they thought gay just meant “happy,” like in a Fred Astaire movie.

    This is exactly what the teachers at my Catholic school told us second graders when they discovered that were new slurs circulating, such as “happy” and “a pile of wood”. I had never heard of these slurs before, so I learned something that day.

  17. 17.

    burnspbesq

    Probably a very good investment, but the optics leave a little to be desired.

    Due diligence fail.

  18. 18.

    Corner Stone

    @Zifnab:

    For those of us that aren’t gay, Hollywood’s comic degree of ultra-machoism and the gladiator-esque exploits of shapely young sweaty men within the professional sports arena will remain very attractive.

    Wait…is that for those of us who aren’t gay? Or those of us who just enjoy watching people who take pride in their appearance, and who just happen to end up sweaty in states of semi-undress at various points?
    Which is fine. I mean, either way. It’s fine.

  20. 20.

    shortstop

    Where will your anti-Catholic bigotry lead you, Dougie?

    The church is not queer-bashing cardinals hanging out in big gay saunas. The church is you and me.

  24. 24.

    Comrade Dread

    Given what else we’ve heard about these guys, I’m not sure buying the club’s property was an accident.

    I’m guessing bishops will get access to the VIP room where they can hang out away from the media.

  27. 27.

    The Republic of Stupidity

    Oh Lordy…

    I’d damned near pay to hear what Bill Donohue has to say about this…

  31. 31.

    Linus

    Q1. Why is it called the Holy See?
    Q2. Why did they need to be close to Europa Multiclub?

    Ans 1. Because its cardinals like to see holy things through peep holes at Europa Multiclub.

    Ans 2. ‘See’ means seat. It is called Holy See because its cardinals like to sit on their holy ‘see’ and see holy things at through peep holes at Europa Multiclub.

  34. 34.

    Corner Stone

    It’s more than a little brilliant, in its own way.
    “Ooopsie! We spent 21M on a building attached to the biggest gay sauna on God’s green earth? Nothing to be done about it now. Everyone! Put on your official Cardinal Swim Cap and let’s go save those benighted, yet hopefully well endowed, souls!”

  35. 35.

    EconWatcher

    It feels like the gig is nearly up for these guys. The Church is deader than a doornail in Ireland, which was downright medieval Catholic only 20 years ago. American Catholics for whatever reason have been a lot more forgiving of the Church, but even they have to have their limits.

    For a long time, the Church has appeared sinister, and that was enough to damage but not destroy it (because I suppose even something sinister can convey some majesty and mystery). But what happens when the Church becomes simply a joke? It seems like we’re about there.

  38. 38.

    kindness

    Almost TMI. That is if I actually think about the good Padre. Me? I guess the first question I would pose a prospective pope (were I a Cardinal & I’m obviously not) would be ‘Have you ever had sex with young boys?’. My second would then have to be ‘Have you ever had sex with older boys?’ and my final question would be ‘Have you ever done anything ichy with females?’. That would be my last question because we all know that good leaders of the church prefer young boys to just about anything in the whole world. Women? They aren’t even on their list but I would ask anyhow just to show my respect for the gender.

  41. 41.

    quannlace

    I just don’t get all this fawning and breathless coverage.
    I tuned in today to the noon news for…you know…news. But all it was, was LIVE coverage of…a line of cardinals basically signing in as they line up to enter the Sistine chapel. Oh, all that queuing in line action! And this went on for a half hour. For all I know it’s still going on.

  43. 43.

    burnspbesq

    @shortstop:

    It amuses me to no end that I am so deeply in your head that your first response to anything involving the Church is a failed attempt at mockery.

  45. 45.

    Todd

    @quannlace:

    But all it was, was LIVE coverage of…a line of cardinals basically signing in as they line up to enter the Sistine chapel. Oh, all that queuing in line action! And this went on for a half hour.

    Damn. That sounds like the first hour and a half of “The Borgias”, which is why I never got past the pilot episode.

  46. 46.

    NonyNony

    @shortstop:

    Well, he’d start with my first sentence at #20

    Objection! Unless you can point me to a transcript where he says something like it, I can’t imagine the sentence “The church is you and me.” would ever escape from Donohue’s lips. The touchy-feely “the congregation is the church” folks are the liberal Catholics.

    Donohue would probably rail on about the gay conspiracy out to undermine the Mother Church to make it look bad. Probably haul out the theory that ho-mo-SEX-you-als are secretly enrolling into seminaries just to rise to the rank of Cardinal and do things to embarrass the church (yes that’s an honest to Grod conspiracy theory that comes from the brain of an older relative, why do you ask?)

  47. 47.

    shortstop

    @EconWatcher:

    It feels like the gig is nearly up for these guys.

    I think not. There are whole land masses — for example, Africa and a good chunk of South America — that will limp along in the church’s fetid embrace for centuries more. Widespread poverty and the abject neediness it engenders is the church’s best friend.

    I think the cardinals are going to get Ratzo’s wish for a smaller, “purer” (by which I mean unable to fight back to the same extent that the U.S., U.K., Australia and western Europe have) church.

    I do agree that the Irish have been stand-up in all of this, though. They are a shining example of how to refuse to take this shit. Would love to see American Catholics show half the moxie.

  49. 49.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Villago Delenda Est: Sirius XM has a “Catholic Channel” which is jovially advertising its conclave coverage as “our Super Bowl”. As a recovering Catholic, atheist-leaning agnostic, I think I would find that pretty offensive if I were a believer

  50. 50.

    Todd

    @EconWatcher:

    It feels like the gig is nearly up for these guys. The Church is deader than a doornail in Ireland, which was downright medieval Catholic only 20 years ago. American Catholics for whatever reason have been a lot more forgiving of the Church, but even they have to have their limits.
    For a long time, the Church has appeared sinister, and that was enough to damage but not destroy it (because I suppose even something sinister can convey some majesty and mystery). But what happens when the Church becomes simply a joke? It seems like we’re about there.

    All they got left is a metric fuckton of money that they’re still leveraging against the political order, which is why in an era of declining dogmatism and declining membership, you’ve got a huge battle with the Cult of the Unconscious Fetus over contraception and abortion.

  51. 51.

    handsmile

    @BGinCHI:

    And looking mighty fetching, all encowled.

    The album includes numerous track titles appropriate for the thread: “Holy War,” “Thought I Knew You,” “Nothing Lasts”. (n.b. DougJ)

  52. 52.

    scav

    I swear that was up yesterday either in TheGuardianOfCouse or beeb. Wasn’t even wierd enough anymore for me to read more than the headline, which is telling. Read-by cheap giggle and keep moving.

  53. 53.

    BruceFromOhio

    Within sight of the huge cathedral I can see from my window, there are families wondering if they can keep a roof over their heads, children hungry, and homeless people living under bridges, in makeshift shelters and abandoned properties.

    If only, if only …

  54. 54.

    Corner Stone

    @quannlace:

    But all it was, was LIVE coverage of…a line of cardinals basically signing in as they line up to enter the Sistine chapel. Oh, all that queuing in line action!

    Are we sure they knew it was to enter the chapel? And they won’t be extremely disappointed when they don’t see any steam baths area?

  55. 55.

    Todd

    @shortstop:

    here are whole land masses — for example, Africa and a good chunk of South America — that will limp along in the church’s fetid embrace for centuries more.

    They’ve pretty well lost the Mestizo populations of central America by purging those nations of clerics with left populist leanings. Argentina and the guays have pretty well gone the way of the Europeans, and the peasant side of Brazil is wrapped up in hoodoo/voodoo shit. Their African side is a mile wide and an inch deep, and will evaporate off when they don’t get an African pope.

  57. 57.

    handsmile

    @shortstop:

    “Would love to see American Catholics show half the moxie.”

    Well, if Ghana’s Peter Turkson is elevated to the Papacy by this conclave, I would expect quite a few American Catholics will be showing their, um, moxie.

  58. 58.

    Sad_Dem

    @Bob2: @Sad_Dem: You’d think they’d have some sort of in house method instead of going to Craigslist like the RNC does.

    They tried it, and they had no more success with praying to Jesus to make that hottie call than anyone else has.

  59. 59.

    Cacti

    I’m disappointed that there’s no BJ thread on picks for the next pontiff.

    My pick is Odilo Scherer, the Archbishop of Sao Paulo.

  61. 61.

    scav

    @Todd: Yeah, but I don’t read the Independent — my comment was more prompted by people confusing the single cited source with an UK Onion than anything else.

  62. 62.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @handsmile: several friends and relatives of my parents’ generation would drop dead, and a few would come back to life just to do so. I suspect the Eminences are well aware of this.

  63. 63.

    Violet

    @quannlace: I don’t get all the breathless coverage either, but I do love that there is still secrecy in the choosing of the next Pope. In the age of Twitter and the internet in general, there isn’t a lot that doesn’t have spoilers and leaks. The Catholic papal conclave still seems to be able to pull it off. We’ll see, I guess, if they can. They did it last time, but that has been awhile.

    Still love watching the white smoke and waiting and wondering along with everyone else to see who is going to appear at the window. I’m not Catholic and I don’t care about it, really, but I do like watching pageantry. The Swiss Guard outfits are crazy. Pantaloons FTW.

  65. 65.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Violet: The Swiss Guard outfits are crazy. Pantaloons FTW.

    You think Ratzinger has Handsome Georg wear one of those outfits after they have retired to their quarters?

  66. 66.

    NonyNony

    @shortstop:

    Would love to see American Catholics show half the moxie.

    American Catholics give the finger to the Church in a different way than Irish Catholics do. Here they just leave and go silently to a different church. Since the Church isn’t nearly as much of the American identity as it is the Irish identity, and since it doesn’t enjoy the same kind of entangling with the government as it does in Ireland, it’s a lot quieter here.

    But it’s happening – and it’s why the American Church is getting more and more wingnutty every year. Because over the past few decades more and more open-minded people have wandered away to other religions (or even to atheism) while the hardcore conservatives stay behind, making things worse for the liberals who have chosen to stay and fight for “their” church since they get more and more outnumbered every year.

  67. 67.

    Todd

    @handsmile:

    Well, if Ghana’s Peter Turkson is elevated to the Papacy by this conclave, I would expect quite a few American Catholics will be showing their, um, moxie.

    If an ethnic Pope from sub-Saharan Africa gets elected and rails on about contraception and abortion, with the fundievangelicals from the South still go along for the ride, or will they do a 180?

  68. 68.

    Face

    This purchase likely only serves the purpose of laundering money. It’s all the Church knows how to do successfully.

  70. 70.

    Todd

    @NonyNony:

    But it’s happening – and it’s why the American Church is getting more and more wingnutty every year. Because over the past few decades more and more open-minded people have wandered away to other religions (or even to atheism) while the hardcore conservatives stay behind, making things worse for the liberals who have chosen to stay and fight for “their” church since they get more and more outnumbered every year.

    In my experience, they just quit going anywhere, and spend more time doing thiings they enjoy. They’ll still “hatch, match and dispatch” in the church, but that’s pretty much it. It’ll be Christmas and Easter services, and they’ll wonder why the priests drone on about culture wars when they do bother to show up.

  71. 71.

    Corner Stone

    @Violet:

    Still love watching the white smoke and waiting and wondering along with everyone else to see who is going to appear at the window.

    “Good God!! That’s!…that’s Triple-H’s music!”

  72. 72.

    Sad_Dem

    @Todd: If a black lesbian got elected pope, it would just confirm fundie suspicions about the Catholic Church.

  73. 73.

    Punchy

    @handsmile: I cannot even begin to imagine the hand-wringing and bitching that will engulf most American Cathys if they elect a Blah Pope. Apoplexy writ huge.

    Of course, I’d expect him to name himself Pope Coolio or Ice Pope just to make actual heads esspload.

  76. 76.

    scav

    I’ve a feeling the whole Irish thing is comperlicated, with things happening through weird channels, Accusations of Opus Dei are now flying via TheGuardOfCourse

    Interesting tidbit that there’s only one physician on the parliamentary subcommittee exploring the abortion question. Any info and/or guesses/bets on the number of women on same?

  77. 77.

    NonyNony

    @Todd:

    It’ll be Christmas and Easter services, and they’ll wonder why the priests drone on about culture wars when they do bother to show up.

    This is also true – but that’s not so much Catholics consciously giving the Church the finger (which is what shortstop was commending in the Irish) but just the typical attrition that the Church has had to deal with in the 20th century period.

  78. 78.

    Chris

    @NonyNony:

    Yep. I’m one of those “pick up and leave” people.

    Okay, honest question. Are we wrong? Part of me (the minority part obviously) thinks people like me are part of the problem, because if all the sane people leave, it just makes it easier for the psychos to rule unopposed. But at the same time… it’s just a church. Not a government or political institution. If it chooses to forego any and all useful functions in society and be nothing but a bunch of kooks sitting around remembering the past, who cares, really? Other people who actually care about serving a purpose in society will fill the gap, and the Church will become the religious version of those few weird aristocrats in Europe who still pine for the prerevolutionary era.

  79. 79.

    Jay C

    @Todd:

    Damn. That sounds like the first hour and a half of “The Borgias”, which is why I never got past the pilot episode.

    Well, you should have waited: after a while, the action shifts from Cardinals queuing to the really interesting bits: greed, murders, intrigues, fornication, stabbings, poisonings, more fornication, warmongering, etc.: IOW, those colorful traditions of the Church which have sadly been lost in modern times….

  81. 81.

    Darkrose

    @Linus: FTFY

    Ans 2. ‘See’ means seat. It is called Holy See because its cardinals like to sit on their holy ‘see’ and see holy things going in holes at through peep holes at Europa Multiclub.

  82. 82.

    kindness

    @Sad_Dem:

    @Bob2: @Sad_Dem: You’d think they’d have some sort of in house method instead of going to Craigslist like the RNC does.

    They tried it, and they had no more success with praying to Jesus to make that hottie call than anyone else has.

    Oh puleez. They use GRINDR just like every other rutting gay male.

  84. 84.

    NonyNony

    @Todd:

    If an ethnic Pope from sub-Saharan Africa gets elected and rails on about contraception and abortion, with the fundievangelicals from the South still go along for the ride, or will they do a 180?

    Missed this one earlier –

    Look they already work hand in hand with the Whore of Babylon (the Church) led by the Anti-Christ (the pope) to fulfill their political agendas. If THAT doesn’t phase them I doubt that having the Anti-Christ be a black man from Africa will do much to jar them either.

    (Now if they were to elect an African-American man Pope then we’d have a different story – that would bring their racism front and center. But Africa is where black people are “supposed” to be, so having an Anti-Christ from Africa won’t jar them too much, I think.)

  85. 85.

    Paul in KY

    @Sad_Dem: Nu Sigma Alpha?

    One of the hot frats in seminary, I hear! Think of the paddling scene in Animal House (times 20)!

  87. 87.

    Another Halocene Human

    @shortstop: Yeah, I’m sure the whole landmass of South America is still sleeping soundly in the Church’s embrace. Way to dismiss centuries of troubled and complicated history.

    I must say one thing, in the Spanish-speaking world the popular imagination has priests abusing their spiritual role in the community to get with hot women. See, like, every movie ever. And ex-Father Cutie.

  90. 90.

    NonyNony

    @Chris:

    Okay, honest question. Are we wrong? Part of me (the minority part obviously) thinks people like me are part of the problem, because if all the sane people leave, it just makes it easier for the psychos to rule unopposed. But at the same time… it’s just a church. Not a government or political institution. If it chooses to forego any and all useful functions in society and be nothing but a bunch of kooks sitting around remembering the past, who cares, really?

    Only you can really answer that question.

    But if you believe the part in italics is true, I don’t think anyone could say that just picking up and leaving is the wrong thing to do.

    It really depends on how important it is to you. And if it isn’t important, there are other things worth fighting for where your energy is better placed (and, honestly, will probably get results – it’s hard to change an institution whose internal structure and decision-making processes are still based on those of the old Roman government that collapsed over a millenia ago….)

  91. 91.

    Another Halocene Human

    @scav: Considering the story that Gawker ran last year about the Miami Archdiocese (a story that broke because it was a parish and the lay donors, the ones writing the checks, started getting suspicious… and when they turned up massive misuse of funds they didn’t get the reaction from the Church that they wanted, so the story was leaked to the press), this stuff in Rome is relatively tame.

    No beach condos bought for lovers, so far…

  92. 92.

    Paul in KY

    @NonyNony: I’d say to your older relative: “Well, you’ve got to admit they are infiltrating the best & brightest homo-boys!”

  93. 93.

    Chris

    @NonyNony:

    Oh, theologically/spiritually speaking, not much. Anymore. But you know that plenty of people stay in the church (this one or others) for plenty of reasons other that just religion. Cultural, social, etc. Including more than a few of the conservatives, I’m sure.

  94. 94.

    Violet

    @Another Halocene Human: When I was in Honduras several years ago, we were told the fastest growing church in the country was the Mormons. I’ve since been told that a lot of Latinos are leaving the Catholic church and joining evangelical Christian churches. No idea what the actual numbers are.

  97. 97.

    Roger Moore

    @Chris:

    Okay, honest question. Are we wrong?

    Do you think you’d be able to make real change by staying? If you could, you should stay and try to fix things. If you couldn’t you should get out to deny them your money and the implicit approval of their crazy positions. If you really want to make a statement, you should go to the trouble of formally leaving the church so they can’t count you as a church member just because you were baptized Catholic.

  98. 98.

    ? Martin

    @Violet: Anecdotally, I think they’re higher than you think. I have two latino coworkers, both with families still in Mexico. Both families are split Catholic/Mormon. They say that’s more and more common.

  99. 99.

    Darkrose

    Doug, you left this part out:

    Dias probably won’t be in attendance, given his public attacks against the LGBT community. The Indian cardinal believes gays and lesbians can be cured of their “unnatural tendencies” through the “sacrament of penance.”

    See! You people with your filthy minds are just misunderstanding! It’s totally the sacrament of penance, on your knees in front of a guy…wait a minute…

  100. 100.

    Paul in KY

    @Todd: Back in the old days (pre-JP II), your Southern Catholics were among the more liberal of the wide gamut of church-going folk you would find down there.

    Now, I guess they’re about as whackaloon as an Assembly of Godder.

  101. 101.

    Yutsano

    @Paul in KY: Nah. They’ve gone outside Italy for the last two Popes and still haven’t conquered the universe. The next Pope is gonna be Italian. Possibly even Sicilian.

  103. 103.

    Violet

    @? Martin: Doesn’t surprise me from what I learned on that trip. I had no idea the Mormons were doing as much in Latin America as they were up until I went there.

  104. 104.

    Chris

    @Violet:

    Yes! I heard that in Cuba, too, of all places. It seems that Catholicism used to be the backbone of anti-regime opposition on that island, but ever since Castro allowed the Church to open for business again circa 2000, the higher ups – the Vatican and the Nuncio – have adopted a “don’t rock the boat” approach. They’re just thrilled to be back in business and are terrified of giving Castro any excuse to close them down again. That’s left a ton of local priests, nuns and other religious-based human rights groups high and dry. And while there’s not much they can do about it, more than a few of their flock just decided “fuck it, I’m leaving.”

    (American evangelicals have rushed in to fill the gap, so it’s not necessarily an improvement).

  105. 105.

    Another Halocene Human

    @NonyNony: American Catholics give the finger to the Church in a different way than Irish Catholics do. Here they just leave and go silently to a different church. Since the Church isn’t nearly as much of the American identity as it is the Irish identity, and since it doesn’t enjoy the same kind of entangling with the government as it does in Ireland, it’s a lot quieter here.

    This is completely correct. The move to get excommunicated did not start in Ireland, btw, it started elsewhere in Europe. And some American activists had been talking about it for years (a few survivors of priest abuse have sought excommunication) because in most places in EUROPE the fucking church will get tax payments out of you until you can remove yourself from their congregation (either directly from you, or from the government based on headcount), whereas many American Catholics quit in this order:

    No money for bishop’s appeal. Fuck the bishop.
    Less, then no money for the parish. The bishop seems to get the money anyway.
    Not showing up to church. Monsignor pissed me off.
    Miss church, but starting to deprogram from the Church and don’t feel like going back in there.
    Eh, why not visit the Episcopalian Church down the block.
    I love this place!

    Or they go atheist or whatever. Plenty of Catholics go evangelical or whatever every year but that was going on before the scandals. What we’re discussing here are people who were happy to stay until they realized that the bishops were protecting child molesters and putting little children at risk.

    When the Irish scandals broke the ex-comm movement exploded. I’m good friends with a former parish employee in what was a very prosperous parish in Boston. When the Boston scandals happened attendance plummeted. Why?

    Ethnic Catholics not only no longer felt obligated to bring their children to church–the mechanism by which they stayed involved all those years because generally one reaches early adulthood and questions the practice–but actively felt that it was inappropriate to bring a child anywhere near the place. The child rape scandal was the DEATH of Irish-American marriage to the church, that unbroken line of returning to the well over and over.

    Separating Irish identity from the Catholic Church can only be a good thing.

    I’m not Italian but my friend worked in a parish that was 50% Italian so I’m sure they felt similarly.

  107. 107.

    Paul in KY

    @Yutsano: 2 of the last 3 Italian Popes have been pretty good (IMO). The other one might have been too, if he hadn’t dropped dead a month in.

  108. 108.

    Violet

    @Chris: Here’s an article from PRI about Latinos being the fastest growing group within the Mormon church. Strong history in Mexico and fastest growing.

  110. 110.

    Roger Moore

    @Chris:

    But you know that plenty of people stay in the church (this one or others) for plenty of reasons other that just religion.

    Maybe the solution is to find a different church that meets both your social and religious needs. For example, the Episcopal Church/COE keeps a lot of the ritual but is much more socially liberal.

  111. 111.

    Another Halocene Human

    @Todd: They’ll still “hatch, match and dispatch” in the church, but that’s pretty much it.

    Yeah, I don’t think so. Some friends that (reluctantly) had the Catholic wedding the bride’s parents were dying for both went violently atheist about a year later and are talking about kids. Who won’t be going to church.

    She’s Irish. I’m Irish. Part of that Irish Catholic identity was remaining different from the WASP overlords and never forgetting where you came from. But the RCC just isn’t a part of that anymore. They betrayed us. They betrayed our most precious resource–our children. FUCK NO, I’m not putting a child in their tender clutches.

    We can be proud of being Irish without the Church. It’s over. Even my somewhat bigoted against the English grandmother, I feel, was protesting a bit too much in the last year of her life, telling stories about why it was important to remain Catholic. There was a very nice Episcopal church in her neighborhood and the Catholic church was suffering through an awful embezzlement scandal involving one of the parish priests… oh, and the bishop refused to forgive any of their debts. Never went to a Catholic church where they had a lay person give a weekly audit report after the homily.

  112. 112.

    The Moar You Know

    The other one might have been too, if he hadn’t dropped dead been murdered by the conservatives a month in.

    @Paul in KY: FTFY.

  113. 113.

    Another Halocene Human

    @Punchy: Er, knowing the wingers in my family, they loves them some African Cardinals. They have a super right wing reputation. Gimme that old time religion and all that.

    (Plus there’s the Herman Cain aspect of having someone not of your tribal group reflect your tribal prejudices back to you.)

    I honestly think more of them would resent a Spanish-speaker from the Western hemisphere.

  114. 114.

    scav

    @Chris:

    it’s just a church. Not a government or political institution. If it chooses to forego any and all useful functions in society and be nothing but a bunch of kooks sitting around remembering the past, who cares, really?

    Well, as it’s nowhere near that stage as the Bishops keep weighing in on issues, pestering the government by overt and covert means and bolstering their claims by butt-count at the coffee and social hour, there may be a residual problem for the moment.

  116. 116.

    Amir Khalid

    Off topic:
    I’ve just realised this stupid Windows 7 thinks there is daylight savings time in Malaysia — which of course there isn’t, but now the clock on my Lenovo laptop is currently an hour ahead of the correct time. I’d rather not mess with the clock manually. Is there anything else I can do?

  118. 118.

    NonyNony

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Ethnic Catholics not only no longer felt obligated to bring their children to church … but actively felt that it was inappropriate to bring a child anywhere near the place.

    This too. And this is going to really hurt the size of the next generation of US Catholics.

    And you mention Italian and Irish Catholics – I’m Irish myself, but I’ve been hearing from Latino friends that the same thing is going on in their communities. The Church has proven itself to be an institution of men who put their own interests above the interests of children, and there isn’t a community of Catholics anywhere that is impacted by that that isn’t revolted by it. Those of us raised Catholic in the US were probably cynical enough to realize that the Church would put its own interests ahead of us, but the way they systematically enabled and covered up child abuse went beyond most of our imaginings.

  121. 121.

    MikeJ

    @Amir Khalid: There’s a checkbox for daylight saving time.

    Right click the clock
    Select Adjust Date/time
    Click Change time zone
    Uncheck Automatically adjust for Daylight Saving Time.

  126. 126.

    nemesis

    It’d be a tad more believeable if the Vat scored a small by-the-hour hotel attached to a toddler daycare facility.

  129. 129.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Amir Khalid: Manually adjust the time back to what it should be and then remove the checkmark from beside Automaticaly adjust clock for daylight savings time.

  130. 130.

    The Moar You Know

    I guess the first question I would pose a prospective pope (were I a Cardinal & I’m obviously not) would be ‘Have you ever had sex with young boys?’. My second would then have to be ‘Have you ever had sex with older boys?’ and my final question would be ‘Have you ever done anything ichy with females?’. That would be my last question because we all know that good leaders of the church prefer young boys to just about anything in the whole world. Women? They aren’t even on their list but I would ask anyhow just to show my respect for the gender.

    @kindness: This is common wisdom, and like most common wisdom it’s dead-on wrong. The boyfuckers get all the press. The church has been paying out hundreds of millions to victims of heterosexual abuse/rape/coercion/homewrecking for decades – the numbers of women abused by the priesthood would blow anyone’s mind. But of course that never gets reported, because women are all sluts and were asking for it in the first place. Even when they’re six.

  131. 131.

    Chris

    @Another Halocene Human:

    I can confirm this.

    I think older liberals sometimes overestimate the race thing. It’s very possible to be very conservative and even very prejudiced without being a racist. The fundie church I dabbled in in college before realizing they were fucking insane – I can honestly say it was racially integrated (pastor Chinese, most of the congregation not white, skin color mattered to no one). On the other hand, God help you if you’re gay, Muslim, or anything else Undesirable. Fairly sure quite a few people there would’ve been happy to make those capital crimes.

    Since desegregation turned racism into a bad word, they’ve been doubling down on those other prejudices on the other side of the aisle.

  133. 133.

    The Moar You Know

    I certainly hope that’s not true. John Paul I was a nice old guy (by accounts I’ve seen).

    @Paul in KY: He was a nice guy. He was also a healthy guy. Liberal. Despised by the conservative wing. Found dead at age 65 30 days into his reign sitting upright in bed. Replaced by his #1 conservative rival, who took his name.

    Church does not even bother to hold an inquiry, much less an autopsy.

    I can add.

  134. 134.

    scav

    @Amir Khalid: But, looking at many digital maps, such sinky-or-swimmy locations are often served by a variety of fine POI establishments. Sometimes even roads!

  135. 135.

    Petorado

    @Paul in KY:

    I love that song! A Catholic upbringing really makes it resonate for me.

    @Another Halocene Human:

    When the Catholic school option came up for our child, my wife and I just looked at each other with a “no way in hell” look. Given church inaction and their tendency to coverup what they know, we both felt it was not only a dismaying option, but our parental duty to prevent contact with priests. And when that parish chose not to allow an adopted daughter of lesbian parents to attend, it was obvious they were just a political organization publicly posturing and not a true religion who mission was tending to people’s souls.

  136. 136.

    Chris

    @The Moar You Know:

    That showed up in the Godfather, I do believe.

    Isn’t it standard procedure though that Papal corpses don’t get autopsied? (Yes, I did get that from Dan Brown, but I’m curious).

  137. 137.

    eemom

    I have finally hit upon something that doesn’t disgust me about the Catholic Church: the sight of all those somber old men in those ridiculous red outfits. That, is almost pitiable in its comedy.

  138. 138.

    Another Halocene Human

    @The Moar You Know: The church has been paying out hundreds of millions to victims of heterosexual abuse/rape/coercion/homewrecking for decades – the numbers of women abused by the priesthood would blow anyone’s mind.

    More like, they beat the rap, revictimize the ‘innocent spouse’ (if there is one), and avoid paying one red cent in child support.

    Yeah, the hysteria level is higher if it’s little boys. For some reason when, say a 16 year old girl is plied with alcohol by a priest and then raped in the Boston archdiocese, it’s a giant meh. Apparently the combination of grass down below and willingly drinking (a lot of kids there start drinking at 15) makes her a whore, not a victim.

    You’ve just touched a nerve with me… the fact that these parish priests, many of whom live well, don’t have to pay child support, that we’re outraged if a teacher or a doctor or a therapist “takes advantage” of a student or client but if it’s a priest: wink wink nudge nudge.

    Not saying priests are never in consensual relationships–sure they are. But it galls me how priest abuse of girls or women is ignored. There seems to be more anger of seminarians getting raped (maybe because it hits that student/teacher meme?) than teenage girls.

  139. 139.

    Another Halocene Human

    @Chris: I don’t think it’s a lack of racism, I think it’s just that tribalism has multiple facets and the religious one is probably the most powerful. The person who said the racists’ head would explode over an African-American pope were spot on. They don’t object to everyone in their proper place.

    Many of the wingers would probably consider an African pontiff to be a moral cleanup guy because they do.not. trust the Italians (talking about German Americans right now).

  144. 144.

    Another Halocene Human

    @The Moar You Know: Found dead after promising to look into the Vatican Bank (and stop the mafia money laundering). Successor doesn’t touch the issue with a 10-foot candle snuffer.

    I was kind of surprised when Benedictus XVI took that on. Of course he is German and they’re kind of bullheaded about stuff like that. Also probably some racial arrogance thinking some Teutonic accounting elbow grease could clean up the Mediterranean mess. Of course he failed. There’s outside pressure, now. The EU is turning the screws.

  145. 145.

    Chris

    @Another Halocene Human:

    I also think RCC critics sometimes play up the “priests abuse little BOYS” angle for maximum illustration of the Church’s hypocrisy (“not only are they abusing, not only are they having sex, but it’s with BOYS! How much more un-Catholic can you get?”) The Church then plays up that angle for everything it’s worth in order to “prove” that homosexuality within the priesthood is the real problem, and use the child abuse cases to justify more witch hunts and make it all the liberals’ fault.

  148. 148.

    Paul in KY

    @Petorado: Maybe need to listen to some more XTC, but I think it is the best song I’ve heard by them. Sorta downer song, though.

    If I’m iPod shuffling when I’m outside (with external speakers) & it comes on (on Easter or Xmas eve/Xmas day), I will move on to next song (have to live with my neighbors). Any other day, it will blare out!

  150. 150.

    Roger Moore

    @Another Halocene Human:

    The EU is turning the screws.

    Which is a sign of how much the situation has changed. 20 or 30 years ago, the Catholic Church had enough influence to scare politicians in a lot of Europe, so that investigations they didn’t like would have a lot of trouble. Now the Church doesn’t even have enough power to stop Spain from legalizing gay marriage, and it’s questionable if they can keep abortion illegal in Ireland. Is it any wonder the EU feels powerful enough to pressure the Church to investigate this kind of thing?

  151. 151.

    Chris

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Wasn’t that Vatican Bank thing part of the much larger Operation Gladio (NATO stay behind cells, often chock full of nasty types like ex-fascists or organized crime kingpins) as well? Or do I have my scandals mixed up? (This *is* Italy, after all…)

  153. 153.

    Heliopause

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that

    With a gay sauna? No. With supposed disciples of Jesus Christ owning vast quantities of real estate? That’s the real issue. Funny how nobody pays any attention to it, just to the sex aspect.

  158. 158.

    BruceFromOhio

    @Paul in KY: Hmmm, I don’t know about that. The South Americans and the Africans have really put on a strong moral showing this century, while the Europeans have struggled, with tithing down and the economic impact on moral code creating a real uphill journey. Sexy-time scandals have completely sidelined the United States, and while Canada and Mexico have fielded competent holy contenders, clearly the strength in this field lies outside of North America. My sense is we are going to see some stalking-horse papal candidacy competition out of the Pac Rim with the Filipino candidate, but my money is on the Africans: men of color, modest in earthly trappings yet dignified by surviving genocide, locusts and centuries of ruthless imperial colonialism.

    An Irish-themed American Pope would’ve really altered the balance of power, historically, though, it’s just not in the smoke.

    Did you pick your bracket?

  160. 160.

    JGabriel

    @hoppipolla:

    Pretty sure that’s Richard Lloyd. not enough bizarre, offensive noises to be our Bob.

    [JGabriel sighs, pushes his fat creaky body out of the desk chair, walks over to the CD collection, sadly ignored and dilapidated in this age of internet distribution, finds the Matthew Sweet Girlfriend disk, pulls out the liner notes, fuck where are my glasses, finds glasses, returns to liner notes …]

    … Aaand … you are correct! It was Lloyd doing lead duty on Evangeline, not Bob Quine.

    Damn, how’d I get that wrong? Been too long away from my sadly ignored and dilapidated liner notes.

    .

  161. 161.

    Paul in KY

    @BruceFromOhio: The Quebec guy was very high up in Benedict’s administration & is Conservative to the bone. He is not well liked in Quebec (which may be a plus, actually).

    Thanks for link to bracket.

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