Today, everyone is agreeing that Nelson Mandela was a great man.
Twasn’t always such:
"The release of Mandela…may one day be likened to the arrival of Lenin at the Finland Station in 1917." -William F. Buckley
— AdamSerwer (@AdamSerwer) December 5, 2013
Baud
I hope the clips of Reagan condemning Mandela go viral.
Davis X. Machina
I remember 25 years ago when the marinas of SA were full of ocean-going sailboats — ‘bug-out boats’ — 28-, 35-, 42-footers. Sail because of the freedom from fuel shortages. (Some of them were built up here in Maine, just for that market). People were buying marine SSB radios, studying celestial navigation — GPS not widely available yet — laying in tinned food. All so they could bug out when the DeKlerk regime fell and the shit hit the fan.
It never did. Mr. Mandela is no small part of the reason why.
I hope at least some of those boats went out for lunch cruises and stuff, the occasional regatta….
In my lifetime I never expected peace in Northern Ireland, majority rule in South Africa, or a re-united Germany. Now it’s hard to imagine a world without them.
debbie
So, conservatives’ dicktitude has been longstanding?
Elizabelle
@Baud:
I always felt sorry for Ray Charles, slipping this mortal coil the same week as Saint Reagan.
Remember the constant RWR and Ray Charles clip?
Litlebritdiftrnt
@Davis X. Machina:
I remember where I was when the wall came down, me and my parents were living in base housing in HMS Cochrane in Scotland because they were visiting. We sat in front of the television and just watched in awe.
Villago Delenda Est
Never forget that the icons of modern “conservatism”, the shitty grade Z movie star and the Wicked Witch of Albion, both considered him a terrorist.
Those two are gnats in comparison to Nelson Mandela.
sharl
Serwer’s next tweet provided a link to a source for that Lenin quote (second paragraph, assuming that link works).
Aaron Bady linked to a good read as well – ah, to live again in the days when there were at least a few GOPers with a shred of decency….
Weigel’s post – “Go Ahead, Politicize Mandela” – ain’t bad either, IMO.
Jeremy
Don’t check out the conservative sites because they are spewing some serious racist bile at Nelson Mandela. The blog Little Green Footballs is talking about it.
Roger Moore
@debbie:
Yes, they’re conservatives, after all.
Elizabelle
@Jeremy:
re rightwingers spewing:
I hope they die of apoplexy.
Would be good for the rest of us. They’ve outlived their welcome.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
I avoided the media like the plague when Reagan died.
Aimai
Who wants to bet how long before they declare mandela a retrospective republican?
jenn
I haven’t gotten out of the boat to check for myself, but according to folks at LGF, no, not everyone is in agreement about that. Some of the comments by the Freepers and Breitbrats are … pretty bad.
Roger Moore
@Aimai:
I think it’ll take at least a year or two. First, they’ll have to talk about how he embodied some kind of conservative principle. Only after they’ve completely convinced themselves of that and had a chance to totally rewrite their memories will they declare him a Republican.
Elizabelle
@Baud:
I live in the DC area. Did love the honesty of some Reagan mourner (young guy, paying his respects) who called the occasion “Woodstock for Republicans.”
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle:
I called it the Reagasm.
Bubblegum Tate
Not so much in the comments over at Breitbart’s House o’ Coprophagia, where they’re arguing that the whites in South Africa had a good thing going until that terrible, terrible Mandela fucked it all up and why does everybody think he’s so great, anyway, when he was actually a terrible person who the LIEbrul media wanted to make into a great person?
I guess my “Mandela was actually a conservative!” talking point prediction was a swing and a miss. They won’t get to that part until they’re through having their 5
minutesdecades’ hate.Bex
@Litlebritdiftrnt: I was flying to Munich. Heard about it when I got to the hotel…ancient days w/o mobiles. Saw lots of broken-down Trabbies on the autobahn a few days later.
scav
bbc radio 5 is doing some fine, sane and reasonable stuff on him, including the steely politician with interesting shirts. They have to break every so often for the weather they’ve got, but otherwise there are grand stories and details. Didn’t know he actually went and learned Afrikaans. Should start back on Nelson soon I’d think.
beltane
Ah, but Buckley was so highbrow and literate. He avoided the obvious comparison to Hitler and went with a more nuanced reference to Lenin instead.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bubblegum Tate:
Whites in South Africa still have it pretty damn good.
Jeremy
@Aimai: I don’t know. If you check out the blogs conservatives are saying some pretty hateful, racist things about Mandela.
James E. Powell
@Villago Delenda Est:
I called it the Reagasm.
I was telling everyone “I despised him before it was cool.”
hilts
The Dickishness of Cheney:
“Cheney bristled in response to questions about his voting record, revealing a mindset that never understood what was at stake in South Africa — or perhaps understood all too well. Challenged last Sunday to defend his 1985 vote against a House resolution urging the release of Nelson Mandela from 23 years of imprisonment, he first denounced such inquiries as “trivia.” Does he really think that the oppression inflicted on millions of black citizens during more than five decades was a trivial matter?
He quickly tried to correct that gaffe, praising Mandela as “a great man.” (He also remarked, with baffling condescension, that the African leader has “mellowed,” whatever that means.) He had opposed the resolution to free Mandela, according to Cheney, because it was attached to recognition of the African National Congress.
“The ANC was then viewed as a terrorist organization,” he said. “Nobody was for keeping Nelson Mandela in prison. Nobody was for supporting apartheid.” ”
h/t http://www.salon.com/2000/08/01/south_africa_3
Culture of Truth
In 1992, even before he won the Nobel prize, much less he became President, I met Nelson Mandela on his visit to the United States. He was very nice to me even though I didn’t deserve his time and attention. I was struck by how genuine and friendly and dignified he was. He was a great activist but also a great world leader.
Culture of Truth
I know white people who have lived in South Africa for a long time. They should get down on their hands and knees daily and thank Nelson Mandela.
Yatsuno
@debbie: They are who we thought they were. This has been true since the founding of the Republic.
Villago Delenda Est
@beltane:
Well, he wasn’t going to dis one of the 20th Century’s staunch anti-Bolsheviks if he wasn’t forced to while testifying in his own trial for treason, would he?
Culture of Truth
I found out today while shopping for a smart phone. The first 10 comments on the website were all racist dipshits.
Chris
Doug, wait till you find out what they used to say about MLK.
I for one am delighted that Nelson Mandela outlived both William F. Buckley and Ronald Reagan.
scav
@hilts:
Looked at your slathering fan-club and cherished base recently tin-heart? Outreach, guys, Outreach and International Rep.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bex: The Trabbies had started in the summer of ’89 when the Hungarians basically decided they weren’t going to stop people from crossing into Austria anymore. I was living in Bavaria at the time, and my first reaction to the infestation of Trabbies and Wartburgs was annoyance. They were slow and in the way on all the roads. Imagine coming around a corner at 70mph to find a Wartburg doing 45mph and trying to pass a Trabbie doing 43mph looming in your path. It was a few weeks later – maybe October – when the significance of what was happening started to sink in. Then the events of November 9, just suddenly broke everything open.
Villago Delenda Est
@hilts:
What is yet another lie to the Dark Lord?
Someone needs to find and destroy this asshole’s horcruxes, stat.
Hungry Joe
@Davis X. Machina: It’s fascinating, how the quickly the unimaginable can be accepted, then taken for granted. Soon the opposite is unimaginable. For example, try to come up with a scenario in which France and Germany go to war.
Villago Delenda Est
@Hungry Joe:
When I was stationed in Germany, in the early 80’s, my German was still good enough to have casual conversations with Germans in rural ares when we were out on exercises. One old farmer gent told me that if there was a war with France tomorrow, he’d gladly volunteer for it.
It takes time for these things to die out, and the attitudes can’t be reinforced in the meantime, as they are in this country on a great many things. Not the least of which is reverence for Southern “heritage”.
Davis X. Machina
@Hungry Joe: Outside the World Cup, I can’t…
Elizabelle
@Omnes Omnibus:
So interesting re Trabbies and Wartburgs on the road and what they foretold.
Hal
I wonder how much self control had to be exercised by Newsmax for the simple “Nelson Mandela dies” headline.
NotMax
@Hungry Joe
Eurovision.
PsiFighter37
What, we can’t let outrageous conservative statements and hyperbole proven to be utterly and totally false be water under the bridge? /snark
Linnaeus
From Lake Geneva to the Finland Station…
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
It’s a nice trick they repeatedly go for; once something (slavery, fascism, segregation, apartheid) has become so universally reviled that they can’t be for it anymore, they about-face and chuckle, “nah, nobody supported [insert abomination here] – what do you think we are, cartoon villains?” Thus you end up with the retrospective where the South was totally going to end slavery, they were just taking a little more time to get around to it – and Southern slave owners didn’t beat and torture their slaves, c’mon, that’s a little Hollywood, don’t you think? – and Wall Street never supported the Nazis (now you’re moving into total conspiracy theory, bro).
It’s a variation of the Big Lie; the fact that these things are so egregious and that (especially if you’re a younger generation) you grew up in a world where all conventional wisdom said “yes, of course that’s awful” make it easier for these guys to say “c’mon, you know us. Would we do that? Don’t let the left sell you such a ridiculous, outlandish allegation.”
MomSense
@Jeremy:
Don’t look. I read about 10 freeper comments and my eyeballs are on fire.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linnaeus: Pet Shop Boys? Why?
Suffern ACE
@Chris: you overlook the finer nuances of apartheid. There were some good ideas, but they just went a little too far.
NotMax
@SuffernACE
Ah, the rebranding gambit.
MikeJ
@Omnes Omnibus: I always get Neil and David Tennant confused. West End Tardis was a great song.
Villago Delenda Est
@Hal:
The commenters have shown no such restraint.
Bob In Portland
Class shows.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, I do happen to like that song, but I’m also reminded of it whenever I read or hear a reference to the Finland Station.
Villago Delenda Est
@Linnaeus:
Sealed train, across Imperial Germany, as if Lenin might infect the country by his mere presence.
Yatsuno
@Omnes Omnibus: A friend of mine who defected to East Germany in the 1980s found out a few years ago that his Trabbi was still intact and stored in a friend’s garage. He actually wanted to spend the money to bring it back from Germany and restore it the best he could. I thought he was nuts. Yugos look like Mercedes next to them.
Cacti
Nelson Mandela outlived both Reagan and Thatcher, and remained lucid to the end while their poisonous minds rotted away.
That alone is worthy of celebrating.
Linnaeus
@Chris:
Yep. Conservatives are very good at resetting the clock to zero, so to speak. You see that with all kinds of liberal policies that have become too popular for conservatives to directly oppose, at least in their rhetoric. So they hated Medicare and Social Security, but they profess to love both now and want to “save” them, while conveniently erasing the history of liberal politics that helped create those programs in the first place.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yatsuno: Few cars are made of pressed wood chips these days. I always figured that, if I clipped one with my GTI back then, all that would remain was sawdust and tires.
mdblanche
@Villago Delenda Est: Should I feel bad that I smiled briefly when I realized President Mandela outlived both of them?
Omnes Omnibus
@mdblanche: No. Also, as far as I know Mandela’s faculties were intact until the end and both Thatcher and Reagan lost theirs.
Linnaeus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Early domino theory, apparently.
scav
@Suffern ACE: And they were all those fine ree-fined gen-teeel Southern Cultural traditions to uphold: The South (Africa) will Rise Again, whistling Dixie.
Cacti
If Republicans had their way, Mandela would have died in prison and the government of South Africa would remain officially racist.
Reagan was George Wallace with a Hollywood smile.
BGinCHI
That was Lenin’s best concert.
Omnes Omnibus
@BGinCHI: Better than Shay Stadium? Or was that really more Paul’s moment?
Baud
@Cacti:
To get a sense of how bad Reagan was, Newt Gingrich supported Congress’s override Reagan’s veto of sanctions on South Africa.
NotMax
@BGinCHI
He killed with “Back in the U.S.S.R.”
Lee
@Baud:
Got any links to those? I would love to post them on FB.
Breezeblock
God, I hate conservative/Repubes/Libertarians. It’s point and laugh. Fuckkkkkkk them all.
BGinCHI
@Omnes Omnibus: The Beatles were already over by the time they played Shea.
Cacti
GOP Mourns Nelson Mandela
Omits any mention of Ronald Reagan, Dick Cheney, religious right support of apartheid.
BGinCHI
@NotMax: Win.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Is that a reference which went right over my head or just a misspelling of Shea Stadium?
Baud
@Lee:
I don’t. I’ve seen them mentioned on the tubes, but I haven’t seen any actual videos. Googling now.
BGinCHI
@Cacti: I thought conservatives were supposed to be the ones with the long memories.
I hope Reagan gets brought out into the light where his dumb, bigoted ass belongs.
BGinCHI
@NotMax: It’s an homage to OO’s favorite hand cream. Sooo buttery.
Omnes Omnibus
@BGinCHI: @NotMax: I can’t believe I misspelled Shea. I go to the box, you know. Two minutes, by myself, you know and I feel shame, you know. And then I get free.
Hawes
If you are in need of a strong emetic, I suggest – as always – the Yahoo! comment thread.
Mandela didn’t end apartheid, De Clerk did. And Mandela was a terrorist and killed people. KILLED PEOPLE!! (white people…)
And through it all, we are admonished by the racists hacks to “learn your history…”
Hawes
@Bubblegum Tate: Mandela won’t be a conservative for a few weeks yet.
They’ll have to remember that Irv Kristol had been a Marxist once, too, and then hunky-dory!
Omnes Omnibus
@Hawes: De Clerk recognized an inevitability and, to his credit, opted to do the decent thing. But that is it.
Baud
@Lee: @Baud:
Can’t locate. Hopefully, they’ll turn up. Reagan was particularly horrible about this issue.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Think about what you’ve done while you’re in there, miscreant.
And no texting.
(Really just hate to miss out on wordplay or snark and was curious if it was intentional.)
Ash Can
@Linnaeus: How far have you been?
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: Nope, I am just not a baseball guy.
ETA: And I can’t type well today for some reason.
Cacti
Darrell Issa has announced a hearing will be held to see if Mandela’s death was timed to distract from Obamacare.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti:
Don’t give the felon any ideas!
Chris
@Hawes:
This is what kills me about all those repeated “oh, man, apartheid had its bad points, but at least there was law and order back then” ravings. Yeah, there was law and order – if you were white. For everyone else, not so much. As far as black people were concerned, apartheid, like segregation before it, essentially made crime legal as long as it was against them.
White racists, take whatever nonwhite street gang scares you the most (Crips, Bloods, MS-13, 18th Street Gang), picture them all being deputized and given the badges and authority to enforce the law however they see fit in all your precious gated communities, and then you can begin to get some idea of what “law and order” were like in Apartheid South Africa (or the segregated United States) for thousands and thousands of people.
Chyron HR
@Cacti:
Palin warned you about those Death Panels rearin’ their heads, but you didn’t listen.
Karen in GA
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s not every day you see a Slap Shot reference.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ll re-work something I said in the (now-dead) thread below:
What Mandela and deKlerk each stood for in their negotiations was essentially a promise that if they managed to negotiate majority (ie black) rule, neither side would seek revenge against the other. The cycle of revenge killing followed by revenge killing would stop.
That was what Mandela stood for: not nonviolence, but an end to the cycle of revenge.
I kind of started making arguments below that sounded like I was saying Mandela was a proponent of non-violence, but he definitely was not . He was against the cycle of revenge and did a very good job of preventing it from spiraling out of control during the transition of power, as did deKlerk.
Omnes Omnibus
@Karen in GA: I am a classicist.
Karen in GA
@Chris:
Your point? /Republican
Plantsmantx
Westboro Baptist tweeted:
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’M LISTENING TO THE FUCKING SONG!
@Karen in GA:
G just saw it for the first time a few months ago. I have four older brothers, so I’ve seen it more times than I can count.
He liked it even though he has zero interest in sports.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Following up on that and some of what drexciya was saying in that thread, I doubt that I would buy into nonviolence if I were black. I sure as hell would have difficulties not pursuing
revengejustice if I gained power.scav
@efgoldman: And I’ve a feeling a massive crowd of singing South Africans could obliterate them as the Westies don’t take being mocked, and pointedly ignored as trivial and sad excuses very well.
MikeJ
@efgoldman: With any luck somebody will rid the world of them and slip away into a township.
I don’t recall Mandela being a huge supporter of gay rights, or against them either. I’m trying to figure out what they could think they have against him, other than the old PWB.
Elizabelle
@efgoldman:
How fun it would be if Westboro creeps were not allowed back into the country.
Culture of Truth
@Hawes:
That’s where I was sent when I shopping for a phone! Yikes!
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
Never, ever put me into power in this country.
It will not be pretty.
Shana
@Villago Delenda Est: Having spent a good portion of Thanksgiving weekend watching the Harry Potter marathon, or as my husband refers to it “a weekend”, that made me spit my drink onto my lap.
dexwood
Fuck Buckley in his grave. Outside his constricted circle of self-important insiders he never truly mattered to the world. Mr. Mandela, however…
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Tumbrels?
Scamp Dog
@Yatsuno: to or from East Germany? I’m suspecting you got this backwards, but think there was some movement in the other direction.
Yatsuno
@Scamp Dog: Defected to. I keep bugging him to write a book about it, he has Stasi spy stories plus he got treated rather well as an American degenerate entering the Socialist paradise. He still has Communist leanings, interesting for an Army officer in the 1980s.
Irony: He now lives in Arizona.
Belafon
@Shana: Liz Cheney is the last one you have to destroy.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yatsuno:
I listened to Sandinista a lot in my car during that time. Does that count?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Omnes Omnibus:
I can barely imagine how difficult it was for Mandela to negotiate with the government that had imprisoned him for over 25 years and not seek revenge. But that restraint on Mandela’s part is the reason South Africa is a reasonably functional state today instead of giving Somalia a run for its money. He was wise enough to see that he and his side had won, and that trying to exact revenge would jeopardize that victory.
Tommy
I think it was 1979. I had a history teacher that shaped my life. He taught us history by current events. He talked to us about Mandela. It was amazing cause well I was raised in a family where I didn’t know racism. I didn’t know there was a place like South Africa. Now I know how stupid I was, but to hear it for the first time this way was nice if there is a nice way to hear it.
Shana
@Cacti: Amen Brother.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): And his ability to exercise that restraint and to get the black population as a whole to buy into it is a major part of what made him a great man.
hells littlest angel
Conservatives love progressives once they’re dead because they no longer have to fear that the progressive will bring change.
Poopyman
@Omnes Omnibus: It will resurrect Detroit as a manufacturing base.
Omnes Omnibus
@hells littlest angel: They still hate FDR.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
The lucky ones get tumbrels.
Select individuals will wish they had been waterboarded.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Omnes Omnibus: What’ve you done, what’ve you done, what’ve you done to deserve this?
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Better. I should have thought of that.
Interrobang
I was in high school when Mandela walked out of prison. I had a (white) choir director who had done graduate work in music on black spirituals, and was good friends with the director of the Tuskeegee Institute Singers. We did a whole series of South African protest music partially in Zulu to commemorate it. Ever since I read Mandela died, I’ve had “Siyahamba” and “Vula Botha” in my head.
I can’t believe some of the things the right-wingers are saying about him. Wow. (On the one side, beautiful music and freedom. On the other, vile racial slurs and insults. Who’s on the side of the angels here, again?)
Jebediah, RBG
@Villago Delenda Est:
I don’t need pretty. I just need to put all these pikes to use.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jebediah, RBG:
I’m your guy, then!
Shana
@Belafon: LOL, literally.
Yatsuno
@Omnes Omnibus: Did YOU defect to East Germany then came back as part of an amnesty program after the wall fell?
Wait, don’t answer that. It might be accurate.
mdblanche
@MikeJ: Mandela was a supporter of gay rights and South Africa’s post-apartheid constitution is the first in the world to ban anti-gay discrimination.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Interrobang:
There is nothing — absolutely nothing — the right wing hates more than being proven wrong. Especially when they’re proven absolutely, positively, unequivocally wrong with no wiggle room to claim they were secretly right the whole time.
Chris
@Omnes Omnibus:
I find it funny that, on the other hand, they’ve made Truman into their retroactive “liberal who’d totally be one of us.” The man who “lost” China. The man who was too chicken to use nukes in Korea. The man whose administration was infected with “card-carrying communists.” They man who disrupted the military with his desegregation order. The man who surrendered American sovereignty to the United Nations.
His right wing groupies would’ve hated him if they’d been alive in his day, just like the right wingers of his days hated him, and for exactly all the same reasons that they hate Obama today. Truman the socialist, Truman the weak sister, Truman the one-worlder, Truman the n/gg/r lover, Truman the backstabber of our glorious troops.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yatsuno: No but I once saw a poster that listed the characteristics of someone who might be a spy.
1. Spends a lot of money.
2. Frequent trips to Austria or Switzerland.
3. Drives a sports car.
etc.
It turned out to be a pretty good description of junior officers who were single and skied – my circle of friends.
Yatsuno
@mdblanche: This was controversial especially among the black tribes. A lot of the African societies frowned a lot on homosexuality as being demonstrated in Uganda today. But Mandela stood his ground on that issue.
Yatsuno
@Omnes Omnibus: Shall I just call you James then?
Tommy
@Interrobang: Was wondering if somebody would post some music from South Africa. I think Ladysmith Black Mambazo is the most well known. I mean working with Paul Simon can’t hurt. Stunning music IMHO. I don’t know the words I am singing, but I can sing a lot of songs they did.
mdblanche
@Yatsuno: And yet I somehow doubt the Westboro Baptist Church will be able to make common cause with them over it.
Comrade Dread
Yeah, I’m old enough to remember when the idea of ending apartheid in South Africa was generally frowned upon by the conservative establishment.
But I’m sure it had nothing to do with race, because nothing ever has to do anything with race.
hells littlest angel
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, well … they’re complicated people.
? Martin
Man, the CNN comments are enlightening. And here I thought that Rosa Parks ended racism.
Yatsuno
@mdblanche: There are several Evangelical churches in the US supporting the anti-gay laws in Uganda. So are several right-wing lawmakers including sitting members of the House. It’s not quite what Westboro does (they’re pretty much dirt poor anyway) but megachurch leaders like John Hagee have a large role in that.
I think it’s meant as a counter to the SA Constitution. The fact that Ugandans are gladly playing along doesn’t help.
Felonius Monk
William F. (F. for Fuckface) Buckley was nothing more than a racist douchebagel.
Mike in NC
About 1992, when apartheid hadn’t yet gone away, alt-hist novelist Harry Turtledove wrote a book called “The Guns of the South” in which a bunch of South Africans in 2014 were able to time travel to America during the civil war to equip the Confederate army with AK-47s in order to turn the tide in their favor. Was probably a big hit among Republicans since the “good guys” were allowed to win.
Tommy
@mdblanche: They came where I live. Years and years ago. I think like the first time folks protested them. A few hundred people showed up and held up poster broads to shield the family from them.
Now I am not a violent person, but at a time they seemed to want to engage. Grandmothers went to engage them. It was only the police that saved Westboro from getting their ass pounded into the ground.
PsiFighter37
@Plantsmantx: They can’t be that stupid, can they?
Oh wait, nevermind. They most definitely can. I remember watching a documentary about Westboro…and then the guy making the documentary got brainwashed and became a part of their ‘church’. Man, it was some weird, twisted shit.
MomSense
@Yatsuno:
Omnibus, Omnes Omnibus
Chris
@Yatsuno:
Yeah, I always thought the Westboro Baptist Church were kind of a red herring. They’re unmitigated assholes, but they’re also freaks and outsiders and universally recognized as such; they don’t have a fraction of the power “mainstream,” “respectable” fundiegelical churches and organizations have, nor do they cause a fraction of the suffering that those mainstream churches do.
Yatsuno
@PsiFighter37: Plane crash. Then I will know the FSM is good if she wipes out that whole family with one stroke of Her noodly appendage.
They will take one look at the price of the plane ticket and demurr. Plus South African tort law is quite a bit different from the US version, and they make their money on lawsuits from assaults. If it doesn’t result in a few million rand for them they won’t be interested.
(I just noticed the irony in the name of the South African currency.)
MikeJ
The Grey Lady
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/03/politics/03REAG.html
Wouldn’t it be fun to ask him tomorrow about why he stabbed St Regan in the back?
Tommy
@PsiFighter37: If somebody sees a documentary on Jesus and becomes a Christan I can get that. Might not agree but I can get it. I guess I don’t know how you become a racist.
MikeJ
@Yatsuno:
What do you have against pilots?
I’d like them to choke to death on their own bile and leave the innocents alone.
Origuy
I doubt that Westboro will follow through on the threat to go to South Africa. They’ve claimed to be planning to appear at places and never shown up before. If they do go to the funeral, though, then someone is bankrolling them. Round trip flights to Joburg from the Midwest cost USD 2500 and up.
TS
Don’t know if this has been posted (I’m still reading the thread) but – some folks never change
http://www.policymic.com/articles/52029/the-surprising-republican-civil-war-that-erupted-over-nelson-mandela-and-apartheid
Tom Q
It occurred to me earlier that apartheid evoked an unusually strong US response for an overseas issue. I think was because it had such strong echoes of the still relatively recent Civil Rights struggle: both the status of South African blacks and the loathsome quality of the Afrikaaner extremists.
And I think the reason Mandela still irks the racist remnant at Breitbart’s is, he proved them wrong. The Afrikaaners, like Southern whites, had as their trump card the idea that, if you set these black men free, they would roam the land and seek revenge (and rape your women, and whatever other horror they could imagine). When Mandela did the opposite — eliminated every hint of payback from his presidency — their whole argument collapsed like a house of cards.
Parenthetically: Obama of course has the same effect on American righties. They try desperately to pretend he’s a Bill Ayers/Marxist guerrilla, and call him that without evidence…but his even temperament — his refusal to stoop to their taunts — over time persuades the majority that those folks are full of it.
Yatsuno
@MikeJ: Eggs. Omelettes. To move montains you have to make sacrifices. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
(Any other trite clichés I could get in there?)
Chris
@Tom Q:
I sometimes wonder if American public opinion towards Israel isn’t shaped by similar echoes – but in that case, echoes of our treatment of the American Indian populations rather than black people. (With the RWNJs living vicariously through their Israeli friends).
Omnes Omnibus
GOP Removes Celebratory Tweet After Learning Nelson Mandela, Not President Obama, Died *
*I know, I know, but it was too good not to post.
Heirn
@Omnes Omnibus: That gave me a good laugh.
Yatsuno
@Omnes Omnibus: Worst part: Thanks to Poe’s Law who knows if that’s even satire anymore?
Tomolitics
Best & funniest thread on the occasion of the passing of a human rights colossus? This one. What to contribute for us old enough to remember what it meant to be on the right side of history at the time in our own small way? I Ain’t Gonna Play Sun City
Omnes Omnibus
@Yatsuno: It wasn’t until the fifth paragraph that I knew for sure.
Heirn
@Yatsuno: If you check out the main page it is tagged with satire, plus there is an article about the Chamber of Commerce calling businesses that didn’t open on Thanksgiving treason.
Omnes Omnibus
@Heirn: There is also this.
chopper
@Omnes Omnibus:
i LOLed.
NotMax
@Yatsuno
Doubtless some clueless mouth-breather from the starboard side of the spectrum, somewhere on the interweb, has a screed up (replete with CAPS and exclamation points) about the death of Nelson Muntz.
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: Ha ha!
MJ
@Villago Delenda Est:
Same with current British leader David Cameron who, while in college in the 80s, was part of a conservative student organization that hung up “Hang Mandela” posters around campus. He tweeted some condolences – wonder if anyone in the British press will ask him about his anti-Mandela actions while in college.
Heirn
@Omnes Omnibus: Serves me right to not have checked out the next page. I am still laughing….
Jebediah, RBG
@MikeJ:
I vote for the guillotine. Except they go in feet first, taking off a decimeter at a time.
Mike in NC
@Omnes Omnibus: What else to expect from a cretin like Reince Preibus (sp)?
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike in NC: You should really read the link. Although, I don’t expect anything better of Priebus.
Omnes Omnibus
Oh, Front Pagers, why have you forsaken us?
Morbo
I still don’t think “everyone” is accurate…
Omnes Omnibus
@Morbo: By everyone, I think he meant everyone with even a vestigial sense of decency.
Petorado
The “F” in William F. Buckley stands for “Fuckin’ douchebag.”
The saddest thing about Mandela’s passing is how few notable replacements we can see following in his footsteps. By himself, he changed the world for the better. Can’t give a higher compliment to a human being.
Mike G
Thatcher said Mandela was a terrorist and Pinochet was a great statesman. Nuff said.
fuckwit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCZKZILvE70
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
Priebus is one of the guys who would wish for waterboarding under a VDE regime.
Lee
@Baud:
Did a bit of searching as well. It seems I can’t find anytime he spoke directly against him. Maybe his press releases?
It also seems that part of it is that Mandela was caught in a power struggle between Congress and Reagan.
Omnes Omnibus
@fuckwit: As long as we doing the Special A.K.A., and apropos to the Mandela theme – there is is this .
Petorado
@Tomolitics: That’s still one of the best things “Miami Steve” Van Zandt ever did, and that’s saying a lot.
Poopyman
@fuckwit: That’s what ran through my mind when I learned he’d died. Free again, at last.
burnspbesq
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
That’s the worrisome thing. Mandela effectively functioned as Jacob Zuma’s conscience. Now that he’s gone, who the hell knows what might happen?
Kyle
@Suffern ACE:
I think a lot of teatards secretly dream of living in an apartheid state, where their skin color is all that’s required for a life of state-brutality-supported privilege and affluence, and they can smugly luxuriate in their hierarchical superior position over the people they fear and hate.
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: Maybe his memory will loom over Zuma like the specter of Putin loomed over Palin.
burnspbesq
@Omnes Omnibus:
I dunno. I hope I can come back in five years and say I misjudged Zuma. Every time I see a picture of that guy, my mind inserts Mandela sitting on one shoulder whispering into one ear, and Mugabe sitting on the other shoulder whispering into the other ear.
Hey Imperator Villago, while you’re making the streets run waist-deep in blood, can you send a spec ops team to take out Mugabe?
Mike G
@Lee:
Doonesbury did a great series of cartoons around the time Sun City was released, the storyline where Jerry Falwell organized a pro-Afrikaner band called “Apart-Aid”, with Ronald Reagan rapping on the track…
MikeJ
@burnspbesq:
That sounds an awful lot like what World Nut Daily was saying in Weigel’s article.
Omnes Omnibus
@Lee: My memories of the time are that Thatcher made the overt statements but the Reagan admin and and the Thatcher government were solidly behind the Apartheid regime. Anti-communism, you know. It wasn’t so much what was said, it was what was done.
PurpleGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Comment deleted…. my bad sense of parody.
Omnes Omnibus
@PurpleGirl: Click on and read the link. Remember Poe’s law.
MikeJ
@Omnes Omnibus:
Reagan said, “In defending their society and people, the Southern African Government has a right and responsibility to maintain order in the face of terrorists. “
Petorado
@Omnes Omnibus: And don’t forget the Ghost Town. Remarkably prescient about today’s economic disparity as well as the racism of the times. What a great band the Specials/ Special AKA were.
Omnes Omnibus
@MikeJ: I should have been more clear. I meant specific comments about Mandela. Both Thatcher and Reagan made many strong statements in support of Botha’s government. And both called the ANC a terrorist organization.
PurpleGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I did the read the link, but didn’t realize it was satire. I wrote something before reading all the other comments. Hence I tried to retract the comment.
Chris
@MikeJ:
Funny, he never said anything like that about the Nicaraguans.
Omnes Omnibus
@Petorado: Saw them in London in ’84 and again in Columbus, Ohio, in 2000 or so. The London show was …wow. The Columbus show was still good even though it was only Lynval Golding and a couple of other original members.
Suffern ACE
@Chris: Or about the looting of the Philippines – well at least not until that couldn’t be ignored any more. Sorry that was our guy transferring wealth to his family. Nothing to see there.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: He said the Contras were the equivalent of our founding fathers. That counts, right?
Of course that calls this to mind.
Joel
@burnspbesq: I think that’s completely wrong. You should read Dave Weigel — of all people — for context, here.
MikeJ
It would be interesting to dig up some quotes from the Botha era and compare them to what people are saying about voting laws in North Carolina. I’ll bet you can find a lot of “If you let the [black people] vote we’ll never win another election!” in both sets,
pseudonymous in nc
The modern conservative movement in the UK and USA is made up of people who, in the 1980s, were vocal advocates of the apartheid regime in South Africa. Young Tories and Young Republicans alike. (Though Young Republicans were more likely not to give a shit.)
scav
@Chris: Apparently the disorder in Afghanistan was the our kind of disorder so legitimated too. Amazing how ass backward he managed to be on most continents and relationships — a talent that. Oh, These drug deals? Just say Yes.
Omnes Omnibus
@pseudonymous in nc: Pretty much. South Africa was more important to British right than the American. Central America was more important to the American right than it was to the British. Obvious reasons for both.
pseudonymous in nc
And yes, living through ’89 and ’90 in my formative teenage years was quite something. Litlebritdiftrnt might remember this, but there were complaints on the BBC when Mandela was released, because it was a Sunday afternoon and they pulled an episode of Antiques Roadshow. (I watched it at my grandma’s house, where we always went on Sunday afternoons.)
Omnes Omnibus
@pseudonymous in nc: I was on the way back from skiing in Austria when it happened. I didn’t find out until I got the Stars and Stripes newspaper on Monday.
MikeJ
@pseudonymous in nc:
The best demonstration I saw in college was one morning when you approached the main quad, every door on every building, every water fountain, every restroom had either a “Whites Only” or “Colored Only” sign. Of course it probably hadn’t been too terribly long since the buildings had had similar signs put up by the administration. [1] It wasn’t until the newspaper came out[2] that most people even knew what it was about, but it certainly got attention. I don’t remember what the YRs had to say, but I remember they were assholes, both in general and specifically about this.
[1] I don’t know the history of integration on the Mizzou campus. They may have never had such signs. I do know that for a town in the midwest Columbia seems awfully southern.
[2] When’s the last time that phrase was used?
? Martin
Ok, CA is starting to struggle with our exchange. They’re getting as many as 17,000 calls an hour, and have 25,000 paper applications to process. Apparently things REALLY picked up starting Dec 1.
Chris
@pseudonymous in nc:
Or at least more likely to be unable to spot South Africa on a map.
Omnes Omnibus
@MikeJ: See comment 199.
pseudonymous in nc
And the South African constitution is considered a model for modern democracies. Justice Ginsburg considered it a good template, got some shit for saying it, and was right.
Ruckus
Just unfriended someone who posted that he wished that all the left leaning people would stop knocking Mandela because he was a good man.
It was the last straw.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: No, this was before the elevation of total ignorance on the right. It was the era of Allan Bloom. Sarah Palin was only at her third college. There once were smart and knowledgeable conservatives. They were not a hardy breed as it turns out and the weeds of anti-intellectualism eventual strangled them. But once, they, like the dodo, did roam free.
ETA: They usually managed to come to the wrong conclusions, but their arguments were well researched and well written. The empathy failure was the same we see now.
Petorado
@Omnes Omnibus: Just came across this interview of Jerry Dammers What an awesome human being! Wish I could have seem them live, but that group was hugely formative to my musical tastes and personal beliefs.
UB40’s “Sing Our Own Song” was also a great tribute to Mandela.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
This.
The only difference between conservatives of Buckley’s time and today? The volume is now at eleven. In his day they kept it at a pretty sedate 4. They aren’t less crazy they have just learned to be louder. All the time. About
everythingnothing.CarolDuhart2
Earworm by the Ojays:
http://youtu.be/hzTeLePbB08
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq:
There are Wahabbists that are higher priority than a two-bit dictator in Zimbabwe.
Omnes Omnibus
@Petorado: Jerry doesn’t look good. The whole 2-Tone thing was significant. Race relations in Britain were really touched by that music. And it was danceable but not remotely disco.
Chris
@Omnes Omnibus:
Huh.
I’ve had a theory for a while that the biggest difference between the Nixon/Reagan generation of conservatives and the current one is that the previous generation grew up in a world that had been shaped by liberalism for many years – even if they were trying to overthrow that world, they still had to deal with it and be aware of it. Our conservatives, OTOH, have grown up in a world marked by conservative dominance. I think that’s made them live in their own bubble much more, hearing only the sound of their own voice – but I also think it’s just made them lazier all around. No need to work our way up the ladder of power; we have the power, let’s just enjoy it. (Nowhere is that more obvious than in Palin’s incoherent babbling and general laziness).
Basically, the old generation of conservatives were the cutthroat capitalist assholes who built themselves up to a position of fortune and power. Now they’re dead, and their entitled brat children who inherited the fortune without having to work for it are running the show.
Petorado
Astride Mandela was Biko. Good time to remember him as well.
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, the rock ‘n roll lifestyle may not have suited him well, or whatever, but he still has a great spirit. Can’t fault a guy for the cosmetics when the substance kicks ass.
joel hanes
@Petorado:
The “F” in William F. Buckley stands for “Fuckin’ douchebag.”
a trait he shares with George F. Will
MikeJ
@Omnes Omnibus:
2-Tone music was involved the first time a girl took me home in England, and she lived in Brixton.
Petorado
@joel hanes: Coincidence?!?
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: I am of an age with Palin. She was born in February of ’64 and I was born in in August of that year. I think it was a transitional time. I know, went to school with, and worked with old school, educated conservatives. They have disappeared from public view. Some went left. Some gave up on thinking. Really, if you want the intellectuals of the right from my youth, the cream of the crop are Andrew Sullivan and Niall Ferguson. Thatcherites. Bright and well-read, but empathy free.
Omnes Omnibus
@MikeJ: FWIW I messed up what could have been a very good thing with a 19 y/o barmaid by mocking whatever album Paul McCartney came out with in 1984. I stand by my musical choice.
ETA: I was only 20 myself at the time.
Petorado
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m of the same vintage, but I don’t get how a child of WWII-age parents can make a person feel that harboring hatreds winds up with a better world. Too much bad precedence to want to recreate previous mistakes.
Omnes Omnibus
@Petorado: Nor do I. Of course, I come from generations of left of center people. It affects my thinking. I will confess to pragmatism – willingness to take half a loaf in order to move forward – but that’s about it. I still look toward that city on a hill that my ancestors wanted (mine is closer to Denmark than they envisioned, but still).
ruemara
@? Martin: Obviously, this means it’s a failure and we should shut it down. /wingnut
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Ah, a hush-hush spy mission.
(For the confused, see #126.)
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Petorado:
I’ve been listening to that song for over 25 years and it still makes me cry every single time I hear it.
It’s obviously still very meaningful to Peter Gabriel, because he still performs it frequently.
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: It’s fucking classified so shut up.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
The nightingales circle the blue melon patch.
’nuff said.
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: That weekend, without digging into photo albums, might well be the one where we tried to ski the liftline at Kirchberg. Too narrow a run to survive. I took a dive about halfway down.
Petorado
@Omnes Omnibus: Props to you. Ands that’s sincere. My city on the hill is in another location, but no one should be without their own vision of it.
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Agreed. Music has more impact that just being a way to pass the time. I’m seeing it in my son, and wanting him to understand what’s behind the lyrics he hears.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Peter Gabriel performing “Biko” on Letterman in 2011.
Petorado
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): You can blow out a candle, but you can’t blow out a fire.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): This is a good version of the song.
Omnes Omnibus
Six hours without a new thread. Hmmm….
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
While simultaneously something appears upstairs . . .
Petorado
@Omnes Omnibus: Cole should give you FP privileges. The place needs moar juice.
Omnes Omnibus
@Petorado: I would misuse the power.
Petorado
@Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, but would anyone suffer for it? Well, anyone who didn’t deserve some suffering?
Omnes Omnibus
@Petorado: Doesn’t matter. I would misuse it. I shouldn’t have it. I passed the test. I will diminish and go into the West and remain Omnes Omnibus.
Petorado
@Omnes Omnibus: Sen. Warren remains in the Senate and you remain in the peanut gallery. Each in a position of strength.
NorthLeft12
The plain truth of the conservative mind set is that they project their feelings onto their opponents, and assume that they will do exactly what the conservatives would do. In this case, the end of apartheid, the cons [in the place of the black Africans/Mandela] would have immediately began to settle scores and give the minority a taste of what they had lived through. They could not imagine that Mandela would think any differently and that he could preside over a peaceful transition.
I’m not sure that we over here in North America can appreciate what an achievement this was by Mandela and the South African people. I sincerely doubt that the “civilized” West could match this achievement under similar circumstances.
NorthLeft12
BTW, Here is another shocker……Buckley and the rest of the right wing pundits/politicians of the day were dead wrong. AGAIN.
I wonder how many of them owned up to it?
pseudonymous in nc
@Omnes Omnibus:
The kind of people who, as young Tories, may not have been singing “Hang Mandela”, but had friends who did. Cameron himself went on a sanction-busting trip to SA with other Tory policy people in the late 80s.
Patricia Kayden
@Chris: And Maggie Thatcher.
Kac90b
@Omnes Omnibus: As far as I know, neither Reagan nor Thatcher ever had it begin with.
Howlin Wolfe
@Chris: I think their euphemism at the time was “constructive engagement”, where the US and the UK would blandish big-brotherly guidance on how to take down apartheid one chain at a time, or something equally unreal and meaningless. They never said just *how* this was to be accomplished — it was a fig leaf so people like Darth Cheney could claim they weren’t actually for apartheid. It’s so disingenuous that it is constructively a lie.
Joel
Here’s the Buckley article. It looks just as bad in its original context.
Jamey
@Culture of Truth: I rode up the elevator with Mandiba at a former place of employment, his book publisher. He was curious about the folding bike that was hanging from my shoulder (a Bike Friday that I used to commute from NNJ to NYC) and peppered me with questions till I reached my floor. Really warm-seeming guy; I consider having had the composure to engage in conversation with a historical figure one of the crowning moments of my life. Must have driven his security detail nuts with his gregariousness.
Jebediah, RBG
@Jamey:
Good for you – I can imagine myself being a stammering, speechless maroon in that circumstance.