Summer olympics cannot be ruined by weather. Winter olympics are easily ruined by weather. Don’t get clever with the winter olympics location – keep it in places like Lillehammer. Put the summer games wherever you want.
Basically all of the outdoor winter sports have been some degree of ruined by the weather. It’s nice seeing underdogs win, but not because conditions are shit.
6.
dmsilev
@? Martin: But, but, but, that would limit the IOC’s flexibility in which bribes to accept! Unpossible!
7.
Angela
@rikyrah: This. I guess it is progress that a juror would not cave. But it still sucks.
@Angela: Racist jurors don’t want to discriminate against racist defendant. Discrimination is wrong, yo.
9.
Omnes Omnibus
@rikyrah: Is there any source for the idea that some jurors wanted to let Dunn walk on any count? Given the facts in the case, it seems likely that the jurors couldn’t decide which level of homicide was the correct one.
@Villago Delenda Est: With a big enough budget for refrigerators and for bribes, why not?
12.
Villago Delenda Est
From the CNN site:
Earlier Saturday, Healey acknowledged that the jury of four white women, two black women, four white men, an Asian woman and a Hispanic man was “struggling, obviously.” Healey answered their questions at this point — including “self-defense and justifiable use of deadly force applies separately to each count.”
The fact that CNN feels obligated to give us details on the racial status of the jury is a clear sign that “post-racial America” is a crock of shit.
Race still very much matters in this country. We have a very long way to go.
What are the criteria under which the DA re-tries the murder case? Resident legal beagles?
17.
Anya
What the hell is wrong with Florida jurors? And how incompetent are Angela Corey and her prosecutors? Why the hell didn’t they show the juror this killers racist prison letters? I just can’t with this shit…
@rikyrah: Aren’t you surprised that they didn’t just simply acquit Dunn? I am. I guess it’s good there were a few Black jurors on the jury or Dunn would be a free man. Sigh.
@rikyrah: Is there any source for the idea that some jurors wanted to let Dunn walk on any count? Given the facts in the case, it seems likely that the jurors couldn’t decide which level of homicide was the correct one.
The charge was Murder One.
They didn’t come back with a unanimous verdict.
Someone actually thought that a man who shot at a car 10 times
Hit it 9 times
The car was DRIVING AWAY
and never bothered to call the police
shouldn’t have been convicted of Murder One.
uh huh
Like I said..
Thank you, to whomever stood up for Jordan Dunn in that Jury Room..
did way more than those murderous bitches in the Trayvon Martin case.
– – -☺ @ProfessorCrunk
This is not just abt jail time. This is about whether white fear legally means more than Black life. #DunnTrial
– – -☺ @NerdyWonka
It is painful watching Black parents have to be dignified, composed, and brave while the monsters who murdered their children walk free.
27.
Pogonip
Do those animals do anything but sleep? I’ve seen lions in the zoo that are livelier than those two. Are you slipping them mickeys?
I can still recall the first time I saw a zoo lion actually move. (She yawned and rolled over.). I have yet to see one go so far as to stand up.
28.
The Thin Black Duke
I guess the lesson to take away from this verdict is that if Dunn successfully killed the other passengers in the car, he would’ve gotten off.
No kidding. This seems pretty typical–and right after I took the shot he plopped that massive back down and resumed his nap. “I’ll, uh, eat you next time. Zzzzz.”
I wonder if it’s the same problem we’ve had with high-profile cases here in Los Angeles — our DAs have a bad habit of overcharging (ie trying to go for the highest charge possible) and then losing because the jury doesn’t think it’s justified. I’m not sure what the criteria are for Murder One in Florida, but IIRC in California it usually requires premeditation. It would be awfully hard to prove that Dunn had planned to kill that specific kid, which is what I think would be required for premeditation in California.
36.
jenn
@rikyrah: I don’t get how this isn’t a slam dunk either (I just finished ranting about it to a friend), but what’s keeping me from going postal is that the murder charge was a mistrial, not a not-guilty verdict. There can be a second trial, and hopefully will. He hasn’t escaped justice yet – it just may take a little longer.
Oh, he’s guilty of murder no doubt.
My guess as to what happened is that the prosecution either failed to prove to the jury that Dunn had the ‘intent to kill’ Davis or the defense threw enough BS in the air to cloud the issue and create a seed of reasonable doubt in the minds of some of the jurors.
A first degree murder conviction requires that ‘intent to kill’ or premeditation be proven.
Attempted murder charges don’t, hence the convictions on the attempted murder charges and the deadlock on first degree murder.
I don’t know if the jury had the choice of a second degree murder conviction or if it was ‘all or nothing’.
Added:
From the Florida statute on first degree murder:
When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
Hopefully we’ll get better information soon, but some people are saying in the thread below that it’s a minimum of 20 years for each charge he was convicted of, not a maximum. If so, then Dunn is looking at 60 years minimum, which is effectively life without parole at his age.
41.
Pogonip
@trollhattan: I think The Rolling Lions would be a good band or team name. Maybe this is the solution to the Redskins problem.
Look, I know you’re upset but DUNN DID NOT WALK FREE. Right now, worst case scenario is that he gets 20 years in prison, and it’s more likely that he’ll get 60 years in prison.
He’s not walking anywhere but into an orange jumpsuit that he will eventually die in.
50.
The Dangerman
I think we have some proof of ass shaving in that photo.
“Jordan Davis was a good kid.” Anytime unarmed Blacks are unjustly killed we have to prove the victim was “good.” It shouldn’t matter.
6:44 PM – 15 Feb 2014
Go read Dunn’s letters. Then take a shower, bc you’ll feel dirty. Then: call out every asshole who says this murder was not about race.
6:54 PM – 15 Feb 2014
53.
jenn
@trollhattan: True. I hadn’t even thought about the civil system. @Glocksman: Yes, you and Mnemosyne may be right that this is a case of not being able to prove the premeditated part of Murder 1. I always hate talkative juries, so I’m not actually wishing for them to start blabbing about the inner workings, but I have to admit I would like to know what the reasoning behind the mistrial was.
@rikyrah: No. I never said that. As I said, I think it is likely that the jury hung between degrees of homicide (like first or second degree murder). I sincerely doubt that jury that return guilty verdicts on the attempt charges be considering a not guilty on count one.
I should have been clearer.
I meant premeditation.
We can argue that he had enough time to reflect on what he was about to do, and that constituted premeditation.
I think that it does.
That said, it’s just my guess as to why they deadlocked.
It could have been for something else entirely, and we’ll find out later.
Is that sort of like no one can eat just one peanut, or Lay’s potato chip?
60.
jenn
@Mnemosyne: I know. And I can’t remember the name of the woman – Marissa? who fired the warning shots, and who fortunately is getting a retrial. I’m not comfortable with the idea of folks firing warning shots getting automatic free passes – bullets shot in the air have to come down, bullets shot into the ground can ricochet – but the disparity in sentencing is utterly outrageous, and HAS to be changed.
I just hope he remembers which clipper he’s using for ass and which he’s using for beard.
62.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mnemosyne: No, what I’m angry about is that thanks to the barbaric SYG law, it’s open season on young black men in the state of Florida, and I’m painfully aware that if Dunn managed to kill the other passengers in the car, he would have gotten away with it. Yeah, I’m glad that Dunn will most likely die in jail but please forgive me if I don’t see this verdict as a triumphant moment. Some people would call this “justice”, but I call it an accident.
63.
jenn
And just so I don’t forget to mention – that picture of snoozing dogs’ butts is awfully cute!
Angela Corey locks up black minors for breakfast and charges them as adults for lunch. She should have ZERO credibility. #dunntrial
65.
Anya
@Mnemosyne: Some analyst on MSNBC said that overcharging was going to raise problems. But the prosecutor didn’t present a strong case. They didn’t challenge the witnesses who were saying Dunn was a good man with his history of bigotry.
@SiubhanDuinne: She’s horrible. The only people she seems to convict are the ones who don’t kill anyone. Florida is just horrible.
I assume (I may be wrong) that the sentencing for first degree murder is going to be capital punishment, while lesser charges would be long prison sentences.
So is the message here that we can’t sentence a racist asshole white guy for killing a black kid, because that would be against the laws of nature and God?
To quote Sideshow Bob:
I am presently incarcerated, imprisoned for a crime I did not even commit. ‘Attempted murder,’ now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for ‘attempted chemistry?’
I’m just not seeing how they can let the death of Jordan Davis go unpunished. If those kids had been white, I don’t think we’d be having this discussion, because it would have been open and shut.
68.
Jordan Rules
@Glocksman: Shouldn’t the laws be constructed in such a way as to limit the damage incompetants and bad actors can inflict while in power and also take into account variables that would be used to make the law ultimately unjust and kinda pointless? Unless having laws to codify injustice is the point. We do have quite the history of that.
69.
jenn
@The Thin Black Duke: I’m not sure that this is really the case, though. He wasn’t found not-guilty of murder, it was a mistrial. Though, as to the first part of your comment, unfortunately, I can’t argue with that. Florida’s take on SYG is incomprehensibly terrible.
Believe me, I don’t expect you to be happy about the verdict. But it’s getting on my nerves to see people talk about how Dunn is going to “walk free” when it’s no such thing.
71.
jenn
@Villago Delenda Est: I think there *has* to be a retrial. I cannot imagine there not be, really. On the other hand, I really felt that Zimmerman was going to get put away, so in the “understanding Florida juries” department, I’m not doing so hot.
72.
Glocksman
CNN had this quote from Dunn’s lawyer.
“My client did not wait to become that victim,” he said. “My client did not wait to either get assaulted by a weapon or have someone potentially pull a trigger,” he said.
Though a weapon was never found, Strolla maintains the youths could have had one. Dunn felt threatened and acted, he said.
“Now, does it sound irrational? Of course it sounds irrational. But have you ever been in that situation?” Strolla asked.
My question would be:
If they had a gun, why did he go back to his car to get his gun?
That’s not self-defense, that’s murder.
Also, real life isn’t the movies and firing at a fleeing vehicle isn’t self defense either.
IANAL, so I don’t understand why there’s a self-defense exception for killing someone in Florida, but no self-defense exception for firing a warning shot. It makes no sense at all.
While he may not be “walking free”, the fact is, the murder of Jordan Davis has not been adjudicated…it’s in the limbo of mistrial status.
I see exactly what the concern here is. It may be a technicality as Dunn appears to be headed to the big house for a very long time, but it’s indicative of a culture that does not value the lives of all of its members the same.
I hated Florida during the six years I lived there. I’ve been back only two or three times since I left in 1975, only on business. Would not willingly set foot in the state now — with all respect to Betty Cracker, Mustang Bobby, and other decent Floridians. I don’t want to give that state one penny of my tourist dollars.
76.
catclub
@Pogonip: At the New Orleans Zoo, the usual for the tiger is sleeping. But now, on the other side of the walkway, where she can smell (and hear), but not see, they bring out the elephants. And that is EXTREMELY interesting to a tiger. Pacing about, sniffing. pacing….
The keeper called it enrichment for the tiger.
77.
jenn
@Mnemosyne: Honestly, I don’t understand Florida’s gun laws at all. They’re just terrible, all around.
Someone in the other thread (I think it was Omnes, who actually is a lawyer, though in Wisconsin) said what will probably happen is that Dunn will accept a plea bargain for the first charge since he was found guilty of the other ones. Any “mistrial” would be only for that one charge, not the whole case, so it’s not going to do him much good to have a whole new trial just on that one charge when he’s already going to prison for a few decades to come.
79.
The Thin Black Duke
@jenn: Unfortunately, I do understand. I think the “Stand Your Ground” laws are doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.
No, I get that. I would have to describe my emotions more as “relief” than anything else, because I was expecting a full acquittal.
But 20 (and more likely 60) years in prison is not “walking free” and I would hate to see people misread tweets like that and think that Dunn was acquitted of all of the charges when he was not.
I sincerely doubt that jury that return guilty verdicts on the attempt charges be considering a not guilty on count one.
I agree. I don’t see how they go from this:
The jurors did find Mr. Dunn guilty of three counts of second-degree attempted murder for getting out of his car and firing 10 times at the Dodge Durango sport utility vehicle in which Jordan Davis, 17, was killed. Three other teenagers, the subjects of the attempted murder charges, were in the car but were not struck. Mr. Dunn continued to fire at the car even as it pulled away. On the attempted murder convictions, he could be sentenced to 20 to 60 years in prison.
to acquittal on murder one, two and three as to the young man who was shot to death.
It pisses me off that the shooter invented a shotgun in the boy’s car. They can’t even be decent enough to just hide behind Florida’s ridiculous law and hope to get off. They have to invent these whole from-the-movies scenarios where it’s a battle and they’re the victor. It’s like they know the gun gives them a huge advantage over the unarmed people they’re shooting, so they have to create a situation where there’s equal force to preserve their manliness.
82.
SuperHrefna
@Pogonip: Cats are mostly active at dawn and dusk and the rest of the time is grooming and napping time. That seems to hold true no matter how big or small the cat. I’ve never been able to figure out whether cats have very inefficient metabolisms or are just indolent.
As for Lily and Rosie I figure Tunch’s towering personality convinced them to go native years ago and now that they are living under the iron paw of Steve they don’t have much incentive to risk resuming normal doggy behavior.
The way it *should* work is that if you’re justified in drawing a gun due to bona fide threats to your life or serious bodily injury, you’re justified in using that gun whether its warning shots or three rounds center mass.
In reality, a lot of people seem to think ‘Oh, warning shots. It must not have been a serious threat’.
I’ve seen people talk about (and write books about) the “culture of honor” in the South, and I think it’s exactly what SYG laws like Florida’s are meant to enforce. Those kids were uppity to Dunn and his “honor” demanded that he be allowed to try and kill them in return. It’s seriously, seriously fucked up.
85.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: The difference between first and second degree is premeditation. Both require the intent to kill. The question becomes whether going back to the car to get his gun is enough to prove premeditation.
If my thought is right, I would not be surprised if Dunn cops a quick plea rather than risk capital punishment if he is convicted of first degree.
I’m not going to dwell on this long b/c it’s too raw right now and I’m too angry right now, but I’m just going to leave this one question here: When it’s a black kid getting put into a hole in the fucking ground, why is it ALWAYS up to us to “be patient” or “be thankful for what we did get” or DEFEND THE GODDAMNED NON-THUGGERY/MAU-MAUISM/OTHER “DESERVING” ATTRIBUTE THAT SUPPOSEDLY JUSTIFIES AN ACQUITTAL/NON-VERDICT?
It’s like these assholes WANT the country burned down around their motherfucking ears…
I don’t see it either. Like the Sideshow Bob quote, it’s just mind boggling that while this guy has been found guilty of attempted murder, someone actually got hit by a bullet and died as a result and they can’t reach a verdict on that.
91.
KG
@rikyrah: honestly, I think this is on the prosecutor. They got a conviction on three counts for attempted second degree. If second degree had been available for the decedant, maybe the jury convicts on that. I don’t know if Florida law allows them to bring charges on first and second degree. The difference between first and second degree is premeditation vs heat of passion. Based on the limited facts, it’s easy to sell heat of passion, it’s harder to sell premeditation. But I’m not a criminal lawyer, my practice has been in other areas
I’m not asking for any of that. I just don’t want people to tweet that a guy who’s going to prison for 20 to 60 years “walked free.” It’s misleading about the facts and it doesn’t do anyone any good.
93.
JPL
@Glocksman: It could have been between 1st and 2nd. Like you, I look forward to find out why they didn’t convict on a lesser charge.
– -☺@keithboykin
Q: Does the partial verdict in the #DunnTrial create a perverse incentive to kill the victim to make it easier to plead self-defense?
– – -☺@TheReidReport
So Michael Dunn faces at least 60 years in prison, but ZERO years in prison (now) for killing Jordan Davis. Ah, Florida. #DunnTrial
– – -☺ @theonlyadult
Of course Angela Corey can smile. No one will murder her child. #DunnTrial
– – -☺@keithboykin
The verdict in #DunnTrial means there is no conviction for killing Jordan Davis, only for shooting at the other people in the car.
– – – -☺ @TheRawestMike
Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Dunn approached Jordan. Florida needs a “mind your business” law. #DunnTrial
They HAD to believe that cock and bull story. No other way.
96.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: The lesser charges are automatically included. Generally, first degree equals intent to kill plus premeditation; second degree requires intent to kill; voluntary manslaughter requires intentional action but no intent to kill or intent to kill but mitigating factors; involuntary manslaughter doesn’t require intent.
97.
lamh36
@Omnes Omnibus: Good he was convicted. But wait, didn’t the kid DIE. A mistrial was declared on the fuckin’ murder charge. There will be some who say well at least you got a conviction. Bullshit. Fact, the man KILLED Jordan Dunn…period. Yet the jury hung on that charge. I ask again, what, the fuck is the value of a Black boys life in Florida? Not much if you ask me.
98.
The Thin Black Duke
@Ben Cisco: Exactly. As James Baldwin so wisely observed years ago, “the most dangerous thing a society can do is to create a man who has nothing left to lose.”
to acquittal on murder one, two and three as to the young man who was shot to death
IIRC, he wasn’t acquitted of that charge — the jury deadlocked, so it’s a mistrial on that charge only. Omnes is probably right that he’ll do a plea deal rather than insist on a full trial on the single charge when he was convicted of three (four?) of the attempted murder charges.
100.
Glocksman
On another subject entirely, I’m doing what I call ‘Bachelor cooking on the cheap’ in my crock-pot.
One small pork roast, half a jar of store brand mild salsa, 1/4 cup of generic asian grill marinade, and a cup of frozen ‘seasoning blend’ vegetables.
Cook for 8 hours and see if it’s any good.
101.
MikeJ
I think better instructions to the jury should have solved the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, manslaughter conundrum.
@Mnemosyne: She didn’t say that the jury acquitted on that charge. She was agreeing with my assessment that a jury that would convict on counts 2, 3 and 4 wasn’t going to have someone vote to acquit on count 1.
Seriously, how does a jury in Florida ever come to a decision in any case if they always have to consider four separate charges on a single crime?
I’m probably a little biased because that seems to be what the major fuckups are here in California when there’s a big case — the jurors think a crime happened but can’t agree which of the multiple charges the person should be convicted of, so they deadlock and it’s a mistrial.
105.
Poopyman
A friend on Facebook claims the prosecutor will retry, but I can’t find corroboration.
106.
KG
@efgoldman: ok, that’s shocking… If nothing else, the facts suggest negligent homicide (which is probably what third degree is).
Based on that, the verdict is rather confusing
107.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Because the other option can be all or nothing. Charge murder 1 only and the jury doesn’t buy the premeditation argument, the guy goes free.
Ah, okay. So it may have been more like the McInerney case I linked to above where the jury deadlocked on which charge to convict the defendant of, not whether to convict or acquit. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
@Mnemosyne: AFAIK, you didn’t say anything. The jury did.
110.
Poopyman
@MikeJ: It’s entirely possible that some members of the jury rejected the conviction on a lesser charge to force a Murder One retrial. We just don’t know at this point.
Well, they could, though. They could be hung up on which murder charge. I wouldn’t be too happy if I were Mr. Dunn. Apparently he was annoyed and whiny waiting for trial, he just wants to get on with his life. This is a real inconvenience for him.
Also, can they they stop with “I was in fear for my life”? It grates on me after Zimmerman. Like it’s a magic incantation that means they go home, if they get the words in just the right order.
Yeah, we know, you were “in fear for your life” but was how was this day any different than any other day where you’re walking around armed and terrified?
He’s lucky he didn’t kill anyone else when he was shooting wildly into that car. No one in that whole area was safe from him. I just get no sense that there’s any consideration that other people have rights too.
113.
lamh36
@jenn: it’s Florida. and I’d bet even money that he won’t be re-tried.
@Mnemosyne: Also, MO FUCKING ADJUDICATION FOR KILLING A BLACK KID.
This really isn’t that dammed hard to grok…
115.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Yes, that is my guess. It is why I think condemnation of the jury is premature. If someone was pro-acquittal, then all the rage being expressed here is understated.
116.
MikeJ
@MikeJ: I think we can rule out third degree. Looking at the Fla code, that appears to be what other places call felony murder, that is, killing somebody, whether you meant to or not, in the commission of another felony. The shooter wasn’t robbing a bank or anything, so third is out.
I’d think 2nd would be easy to prove, manslaughter would be ridiculous. If it came down to 1st or 2nd and I was on the jury, I’d give him 2nd and just get him sent off to prison. the difference between the two probably isn’t big enough to make a difference in this case.
Right, I know, I think omnes is right that they can’t get from convicting on attempted murder on the three boys to NO murder charge on the boy who was killed, so they hung up on which murder charge.
118.
KG
@Omnes Omnibus: so, then it’s possible that they couldn’t agree on a degree? That seems peculiar.
I’m not sure they actually did, though. Take a look at my link in #104, where a California jury deadlocked not on whether or not the defendant should be acquitted — they all agreed he was guilty — but exactly which charge he should be convicted of. With four possible charges to choose from, it could be that Dunn’s jury deadlocked because they couldn’t agree which one of the four to convict him of, not because a majority thought he should be acquitted.
At least, I hope so. You never know with frickin’ Florida juries.
ETA: Note also that the California case I linked to was a hate crime case where the victim was murdered for being gay, so that’s another reason I think there’s a parallel to be pissed off about.
120.
AnotherBruce
@The Thin Black Duke: That’s why he fired so many shots, he was trying to kill them all.
121.
lamh36
@Mnemosyne: tell that to the next Black boy who plays his “thug music” down in Florida. I have a nephew who is 14 years old.
He likes that “thug music”. He likes to hang with his friends and they like to listen to the “thug music” together.
I pray every day he leaves the house to hang with his friends that he doesn’t come upon a white man with an ax to grind or a full clip who can’t stand those “thug” kids and their “thug” music
122.
Omnes Omnibus
@AnotherBruce: Of course he was. In my mind the only question here has ever been whether it was first or second degree murder. That is, whether the time he took to go get his gun was enough to constitute premeditation. The intent to kill is pretty fucking obvious.
I just get no sense that there’s any consideration that other people have rights too.
This is the problem with glibertarians in general. They don’t seem to grok that they’re not the only ones with rights. But then again, according to Ayn Rand, why should they? They are the center of the universe.
124.
KG
@Kay: in fear for life is necessary for self defense cases, usually anyway. But, it’s two pronged, subjective and objective. The first one is whether the defendant thought he was in danger. The second is whether a reasonable person in a similar situation would have the same fear. Also, normally for self defense, there’s a requirement for proportional force, meaning if I guy is punching you, you can’t respond by shooting to kill. At least in theory
125.
Culture of Truth
This Dunn verdict probably has had the highest ratio of bad reporting / tweeting to accurate reporting / tweeting you’re likely to see. I wonder who many actually sat through every minute of the trial or saw all the evidence.
My own guess is Dunn a racist bastard who I would have convicted of murder, but not necessarily of 1st. But that’s a guess.
Exactly. His actions tell us all we need to know, and the evidence that the jurors did not see, were not allowed to see, of his very obvious racism, would have made it impossible for any reasonable person to not glean premeditation on his part.
This guy lived the fantasy of the gun fetishists, opening fire with his manly weapon on thugs(!) and successfully extinguishing the worthless life of one of the mud people in the process. Straight out of a Hollywood action movie and the NRA play book.
128.
The Thin Black Duke
@AnotherBruce: That’s what I said earlier. Thanks to “Stand Your Ground” laws, the burden of proof is on the corpse, and hey, he ain’t saying too much, is he?
129.
Pogonip
I’ve got it! Lily and Rosie are physically unable to speak English. This is the only way they have to say: “John, you are the best thing that ever happened to us and we love you. We don’t want you to get hurt. The next time you get one of your strange urges, shave OUR butts. See? They are right out here where you can find them easily.”
I have a nephew who is mixed race. He is going NOWHERE FUCKING NEAR FLORIDA if I can help it. If he wants a Disney experience, he can come out here to Disneyland.
I wasn’t raised with the fear like you all were, but I started to learn it after I married into the family.
131.
PurpleGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: IIRC, they have an indoor skiing slope at one of the shopping malls.
The only exception to the proportionate force rule I’m aware of is if there’s a huge physical disparity between the assailant and the victim.
If you’re six feet tall and 200lbs and get into a fistfight, good luck proving you were justified in shooting the attacker.
OTOH, if you’re a 4’11 95lb woman and you shoot your unarmed 6’0, 200lb attacker, your odds of a successful self defense plea are much greater.
Even then, the reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury has to exist.
All Zimmerman and Dunn had to do was stay in their cars and drive away and 2 TEENAGERS are still alive today. #DunnTrial
4:40 PM – 15 Feb 2014
134.
Steve from Antioch
I love our jury system. I make by living as a lawyer because we have juries in this country. That said, it’s absolutely grating to listen to people who didn’t sit through the evidence at trial offer up their opinions about what the jury did or did not do wrong.
Not to get all legalese, but that shit is complicated, yo!
Seriously, in every trial in which I have participated that has had significant media coverage, there was something wrong about EVERY report or newspaper article EVERY SINGLE TIME. Sometimes it was as trivial as a misspelling. But often witness testimony was mischaracterized, facts were reported during the trial that were not presented in the courtroom, certain “facts” are presented without also noting that other witnesses directly contradict those “facts”. And that’s just simple factual stuff. Don’t even get me started about the dog vomit that results when non-lawyers (and even some lawyers) try to summarize that “the law” is.
It is truly amazing to talk to jurors after a trial – we always try to do that and often do it jointly with the other side. Again, every single time, the jurors will ask about things or raise questions that never occurred to either me or the opposing attorney. Every single time. Sometimes, they will also reach conclusions that both the opposing counsel and I know are wrong and contrary to the evidence. The point being, there is 1) “the truth” about what happened, 2) the “right” thing to do about it, 3) what the jury decides about 1 and 2, and finally 4) what mostly uninformed bystanders think should have happened. All four of these are NEVER the same.
A jury trial isn’t American Idol, we all don’t get to hear some snippets of evidence and get a 100 word summary of the law and decide that the jury was “right” or “wrong”. Sure, it’s fun internet commentary, but it really does a disservice to the system to imagine that such criticisms have any value.
Right. The reason “I was in fear for my life” gets on my nerves is because Zimmerman repeated it over and over again in the four interview transcripts I read, and Zimmerman was familiar with self defense statutes because he had taken a course on them, and he affects this incredibly smarmy ass-kissing posture when he’s talking to police. Sadly, they seemed to lap it up.
I’ve grown a little tired of this whole category of shooters we’re creating, and how they’re treated as people who somehow stumbled into a “tragedy”. It’s just bullshit. They’re aggressive as hell. They’re going out of their way to shoot these people.
136.
KG
@Glocksman: yeah, didn’t include that exception, mainly because (as you know) the law us really all about exceptions to the exceptions to the exception
All Zimmerman and Dunn had to do was stay in their cars and drive away and 2 TEENAGERS are still alive today.
Yup. That’s the part I never understand. Just, if you feel threatened, get in your car, pedal to the metal, and get the fuck outta harm’s way.
139.
Omnes Omnibus
@rikyrah: This is something anyone with any sense knows to be true.
140.
Pogonip
@Mnemosyne: I’m not taking MY kid anywhere near Florida, and we’re both white. Anybody can encounter with a gun and by Florida law it appears to be open season on darn near everybody. I don’t think anyone should go to Florida and I think those living there should move if it all possible.
141.
Pogonip
I meant to say “…encounter a nut with a gun…”. Sorry. I’m typing too fast tonight.
– -☺@essveecee
Is it me or does the #DunnTrial verdict make it seem like he was punished for not succeeding
143.
SuperHrefna
@Ben Cisco: This. It’s sickening. It makes me sick with fear for all the dark skinned boys and men I know, heartbroken at the mess that is race relations in this country. Black lives are not given full value, they are not treated with equal love, dignity and respect. Verdicts like this are a kick in the gut and requests for patience are a slap in the face.
Speaking of Florida, has anybody heard from Betty Cracker? How is her mom?
145.
jenn
@lamh36: Well, I’m hoping you’re wrong! Every time I hear about one of these cases, the coil in my innards winds a little tighter. I really am hoping, though, that the mistrial is a case of the jury being unable to decide between Murder 1 and Murder 2, rather than a division between those thinking it was murder vs those advocating for acquittal. Florida has proved me wrong before, but I really think it has to be the former. Actually, I just checked, and Corey has now said that there WILL be a retrial.
Saw this today: 1 in 4 Americans doesn’t know Earth circles sun. The article didn’t give the actual percent, but I highly suspect it’s right around 27%…….
What the underlying study says: 74% picked “The Earth goes around the sun.”
On the same question, we have data from other places:
EU (2005): 66%
India (2004): 70%
Malaysia (2008): 72%
South Korea (2004): 86%
@Pogonip: I’m a white Briton and I have always been too frightened to go anywhere near the American south. The thought of my very dark skinned nephew going there fills me with horror. Thank FSM he lives in Berkeley. I even get nervous when he visits me here, because Long Island has it’s own abundant population of racist mouth breathing motherfuckers. He’s only eleven and I guard him like a hawk when I take him out anywhere around here.
The fact that they asked questions about self-defense and especially justifiable deadly force up to the very end suggests (to me, anyway) that one or more of the jurors didn’t think he should be convicted of any level of murder…or even manslaughter, for that matter.
They should add some “threat” type charges to act as a check. I don’t know why they don’t get charged with those when their gun goes off and doesn’t happen to kill anyone. These are public places. It’s pure luck that there isn’t a higher body count. I guess it’s our duty to hit the floor and avoid injury whenever one of these people decides to unload their gun at the convenience store or it goes off when they’re waiting for a table at a restaurant. Its like they have super-duper “rights” and it’s on us to adjust to the increased risk.
151.
batgirl
@Kay: Kay when you look at the questions from the jury to the judge earlier that were reported, I’m not so sure that some on the jury didn’t see the shooting of Davis as self-defense but the other boys as attempted murder. These are the questions that were sent to the judge:
Just after 9:30 a.m. the jury presented Judge Healey additional questions:
Is the defense of self-defense separate for each person and each count?
Are we determining if deadly force is justified against each person in each count?
If we determine deadly force is justified against one person, is it justified for the others?
Here it looks like at least some on the jury may have seen the shooting of Davis as justifiable while the shots at others not. Really won’t know unless someone from the jury talks.
152.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Steve from Antioch: It’s always a surprise what a jury finds important that you never expected. And of course, not being hindered by the rules of evidence, we know may more details than this jury heard.
I agree with Omnes and Kay that logic suggests that the deadlock was between 1st and 2nd degree for a conviction. The guilty on the other charges makes not sense if the issue were simply G/NG, period, on the murder charge. I’d be not at all surprised if there were some plea negotiations in his future.
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
No offense, but I would be very surprised if the public knew a fraction of what the jury knew. From what I can piece together, the trial lasted about two weeks. The transcript from my last two week trial was about 1,800 pages long. Most news stories I’ve read about this in the past few hours have managed to summarize the trial in few hundred words.
You may very well be right about what caused them to hang on the first count. I don’t even know what they were instructed. But I guess my point is that given that the jury spent some 30 hours deliberating, its obvious that they were not having a simplistic, knee-jerk reaction to anything and people who attribute the verdict to some simple bias by the jury are just morons.
155.
SuperHrefna
@trollhattan: yeah! It seems like a scary place for people who don’t fit in.
Yatsuno
PUPPEH BUTTZ!!!
I’m back to work in eight days. In a new office. With higher promotion potential. And I’m actually looking forward to it.
rikyrah
To the Muthafuckas that wanted to let Dunn go..
may you rot in hell.
To whomever STOOD THEIR GROUND in that Jury Room and stood up for JORDAN DUNN..
thank you.
Put that racist piece of shyt in General Population and let prison justice take its course.
dr. luba
Saw this today: 1 in 4 Americans doesn’t know Earth circles sun. The article didn’t give the actual percent, but I highly suspect it’s right around 27%…….
dr. luba
@rikyrah: I can only assume, based on the jury findings, that in Florida it is illegal to shoot…..and miss.
? Martin
Simple rule for the IOC to follow in the future:
Summer olympics cannot be ruined by weather. Winter olympics are easily ruined by weather. Don’t get clever with the winter olympics location – keep it in places like Lillehammer. Put the summer games wherever you want.
Basically all of the outdoor winter sports have been some degree of ruined by the weather. It’s nice seeing underdogs win, but not because conditions are shit.
dmsilev
@? Martin: But, but, but, that would limit the IOC’s flexibility in which bribes to accept! Unpossible!
Angela
@rikyrah: This. I guess it is progress that a juror would not cave. But it still sucks.
? Martin
@Angela: Racist jurors don’t want to discriminate against racist defendant. Discrimination is wrong, yo.
Omnes Omnibus
@rikyrah: Is there any source for the idea that some jurors wanted to let Dunn walk on any count? Given the facts in the case, it seems likely that the jurors couldn’t decide which level of homicide was the correct one.
Villago Delenda Est
@dmsilev:
Next up: Winter Games in Dubai!
dmsilev
@Villago Delenda Est: With a big enough budget for refrigerators and for bribes, why not?
Villago Delenda Est
From the CNN site:
The fact that CNN feels obligated to give us details on the racial status of the jury is a clear sign that “post-racial America” is a crock of shit.
Race still very much matters in this country. We have a very long way to go.
jeffreyw
My winter sport. With toasted coconut.
Roger Moore
@dmsilev:
It’s even money which one would cost more.
SuperHrefna
@jeffreyw: oh yum! I want a slice *drools*
trollhattan
What are the criteria under which the DA re-tries the murder case? Resident legal beagles?
Anya
What the hell is wrong with Florida jurors? And how incompetent are Angela Corey and her prosecutors? Why the hell didn’t they show the juror this killers racist prison letters? I just can’t with this shit…
Baud
@trollhattan:
Whether it’ll make the DA look good.
Patricia Kayden
@rikyrah: Aren’t you surprised that they didn’t just simply acquit Dunn? I am. I guess it’s good there were a few Black jurors on the jury or Dunn would be a free man. Sigh.
Mnemosyne
@dr. luba:
That’s what Marissa Alexander found out (though she was later granted a retrial).
Villago Delenda Est
@jeffreyw:
My blood sugar spikes just looking at that….
rikyrah
@Omnes Omnibus:
The charge was Murder One.
They didn’t come back with a unanimous verdict.
Someone actually thought that a man who shot at a car 10 times
Hit it 9 times
The car was DRIVING AWAY
and never bothered to call the police
shouldn’t have been convicted of Murder One.
uh huh
Like I said..
Thank you, to whomever stood up for Jordan Dunn in that Jury Room..
did way more than those murderous bitches in the Trayvon Martin case.
trollhattan
@Baud:
Are DAs there elected, appointed, Rick Scott rent boys…?
Baud
@Mnemosyne:
So she gets another chance to kill the guy?
Villago Delenda Est
Interesting that the most serious count is ruled a mistrial, but the rest of them are OK.
Need legal beagles to explain this. Omnes? Burnsie?
rikyrah
– – -☺ @ProfessorCrunk
This is not just abt jail time. This is about whether white fear legally means more than Black life. #DunnTrial
– – -☺ @NerdyWonka
It is painful watching Black parents have to be dignified, composed, and brave while the monsters who murdered their children walk free.
Pogonip
Do those animals do anything but sleep? I’ve seen lions in the zoo that are livelier than those two. Are you slipping them mickeys?
I can still recall the first time I saw a zoo lion actually move. (She yawned and rolled over.). I have yet to see one go so far as to stand up.
The Thin Black Duke
I guess the lesson to take away from this verdict is that if Dunn successfully killed the other passengers in the car, he would’ve gotten off.
Baud
@trollhattan:
Doesn’t matter. They all just want to look good.
rikyrah
@Omnes Omnibus:
So, he’s guilty of attempting to murder people, but nothing for actually murdering Jordan Davis?
uh huh
rikyrah
Huskybro Dim Sum @HuskyBro_Inc
There’s Angela Corey, smiling and profiling after another Dead Black Teenager Trial like she’s won a free honey glazed ham #DunnTrial
rikyrah
Sheryl Kaye @_sherylkaye_
Angela Corey speaking as if she’s at some kind of instructional seminar vs speaking about injustice of murder of JordanDavis. #DunnTrial
rikyrah
Christina Morillo @divinetechygirl
“Unbelievable that the value of a black boys life does not seem to exist and it is about race and no one wants to tlk abt it” Sunny Hostin
trollhattan
@Pogonip:
No kidding. This seems pretty typical–and right after I took the shot he plopped that massive back down and resumed his nap. “I’ll, uh, eat you next time. Zzzzz.”
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6131/6009942967_fc68dcb9d2_b.jpg
Mnemosyne
@Anya:
I wonder if it’s the same problem we’ve had with high-profile cases here in Los Angeles — our DAs have a bad habit of overcharging (ie trying to go for the highest charge possible) and then losing because the jury doesn’t think it’s justified. I’m not sure what the criteria are for Murder One in Florida, but IIRC in California it usually requires premeditation. It would be awfully hard to prove that Dunn had planned to kill that specific kid, which is what I think would be required for premeditation in California.
jenn
@rikyrah: I don’t get how this isn’t a slam dunk either (I just finished ranting about it to a friend), but what’s keeping me from going postal is that the murder charge was a mistrial, not a not-guilty verdict. There can be a second trial, and hopefully will. He hasn’t escaped justice yet – it just may take a little longer.
trollhattan
@jenn:
And, since he’s been convicted on the other charges, the families can go after his ass in civil court with very good chances of winning.
Glocksman
@rikyrah:
Oh, he’s guilty of murder no doubt.
My guess as to what happened is that the prosecution either failed to prove to the jury that Dunn had the ‘intent to kill’ Davis or the defense threw enough BS in the air to cloud the issue and create a seed of reasonable doubt in the minds of some of the jurors.
A first degree murder conviction requires that ‘intent to kill’ or premeditation be proven.
Attempted murder charges don’t, hence the convictions on the attempted murder charges and the deadlock on first degree murder.
I don’t know if the jury had the choice of a second degree murder conviction or if it was ‘all or nothing’.
Added:
From the Florida statute on first degree murder:
When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
rikyrah
@Pogonip:
I think that shows they’re loved and well cared for.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
@The Thin Black Duke:
Hopefully we’ll get better information soon, but some people are saying in the thread below that it’s a minimum of 20 years for each charge he was convicted of, not a maximum. If so, then Dunn is looking at 60 years minimum, which is effectively life without parole at his age.
Pogonip
@trollhattan: I think The Rolling Lions would be a good band or team name. Maybe this is the solution to the Redskins problem.
SiubhanDuinne
@Anya:
Was listening to MSNBC on the car radio earlier and the panel was fully agreed that Angela Corey is incompetent.
FWIW.
rikyrah
– – –☺@NerdyWonka
America: Where African-American children are murdered, so they end up six feet under and not in the White House.
Pogonip
@rikyrah: Let sleeping dogs, and lions, lie.
rikyrah
Nerdy Wonka @NerdyWonka
Follow
If you attempt to kill someone, we might convict you. If you murder a Black child, we’ll let you walk free. Welcome to Florida.
6:14 PM – 15 Feb 2014
Mnemosyne
@Glocksman:
There is definitely something way out of whack with Florida’s self-defense laws. Another Corey prosecution, Ronald Thompson, got 20 years for firing two warning shots into the ground that injured no one. He was eventually able to plead it down to five years including time served, but WTF?
Villago Delenda Est
@Glocksman:
When the guy went back to his own vehicle to retrieve his gun, then fired at the other vehicle while it was driving away, hitting it nine times…
Sure seems like he had an intent to kill to me.
rikyrah
Nerdy Wonka @NerdyWonka
Follow
Angela Corey: “We’re grateful for the laws in Florida.”
This is why Angela Corey needs to replaced as State Attorney. #DunnTrial
6:40 PM – 15 Feb 2014
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
Look, I know you’re upset but DUNN DID NOT WALK FREE. Right now, worst case scenario is that he gets 20 years in prison, and it’s more likely that he’ll get 60 years in prison.
He’s not walking anywhere but into an orange jumpsuit that he will eventually die in.
The Dangerman
I think we have some proof of ass shaving in that photo.
rikyrah
BV @blackgalfound
Follow
“Jordan Davis was a good kid.” Anytime unarmed Blacks are unjustly killed we have to prove the victim was “good.” It shouldn’t matter.
6:44 PM – 15 Feb 2014
rikyrah
The Historianess @historianess
Follow
Go read Dunn’s letters. Then take a shower, bc you’ll feel dirty. Then: call out every asshole who says this murder was not about race.
6:54 PM – 15 Feb 2014
jenn
@trollhattan: True. I hadn’t even thought about the civil system. @Glocksman: Yes, you and Mnemosyne may be right that this is a case of not being able to prove the premeditated part of Murder 1. I always hate talkative juries, so I’m not actually wishing for them to start blabbing about the inner workings, but I have to admit I would like to know what the reasoning behind the mistrial was.
Baud
@The Dangerman:
No one can shave just one ass.
Baud
@The Dangerman:
No one can shave just one ass.
jenn
@rikyrah: Yeah, this.
Omnes Omnibus
@rikyrah: No. I never said that. As I said, I think it is likely that the jury hung between degrees of homicide (like first or second degree murder). I sincerely doubt that jury that return guilty verdicts on the attempt charges be considering a not guilty on count one.
Glocksman
@Villago Delenda Est:
I should have been clearer.
I meant premeditation.
We can argue that he had enough time to reflect on what he was about to do, and that constituted premeditation.
I think that it does.
That said, it’s just my guess as to why they deadlocked.
It could have been for something else entirely, and we’ll find out later.
@Mnemosyne:
Money and race.
It’s not the laws, it’s the people in charge of enforcing them that are the problem in Florida.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud:
Is that sort of like no one can eat just one peanut, or Lay’s potato chip?
jenn
@Mnemosyne: I know. And I can’t remember the name of the woman – Marissa? who fired the warning shots, and who fortunately is getting a retrial. I’m not comfortable with the idea of folks firing warning shots getting automatic free passes – bullets shot in the air have to come down, bullets shot into the ground can ricochet – but the disparity in sentencing is utterly outrageous, and HAS to be changed.
The Dangerman
@Baud:
I just hope he remembers which clipper he’s using for ass and which he’s using for beard.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mnemosyne: No, what I’m angry about is that thanks to the barbaric SYG law, it’s open season on young black men in the state of Florida, and I’m painfully aware that if Dunn managed to kill the other passengers in the car, he would have gotten away with it. Yeah, I’m glad that Dunn will most likely die in jail but please forgive me if I don’t see this verdict as a triumphant moment. Some people would call this “justice”, but I call it an accident.
jenn
And just so I don’t forget to mention – that picture of snoozing dogs’ butts is awfully cute!
rikyrah
Rania Khalek @RaniaKhalek
Angela Corey locks up black minors for breakfast and charges them as adults for lunch. She should have ZERO credibility. #dunntrial
Anya
@Mnemosyne: Some analyst on MSNBC said that overcharging was going to raise problems. But the prosecutor didn’t present a strong case. They didn’t challenge the witnesses who were saying Dunn was a good man with his history of bigotry.
@SiubhanDuinne: She’s horrible. The only people she seems to convict are the ones who don’t kill anyone. Florida is just horrible.
Baud
@Villago Delenda Est:
Exactly. Have you ever had just one?
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
I assume (I may be wrong) that the sentencing for first degree murder is going to be capital punishment, while lesser charges would be long prison sentences.
So is the message here that we can’t sentence a racist asshole white guy for killing a black kid, because that would be against the laws of nature and God?
To quote Sideshow Bob:
I’m just not seeing how they can let the death of Jordan Davis go unpunished. If those kids had been white, I don’t think we’d be having this discussion, because it would have been open and shut.
Jordan Rules
@Glocksman: Shouldn’t the laws be constructed in such a way as to limit the damage incompetants and bad actors can inflict while in power and also take into account variables that would be used to make the law ultimately unjust and kinda pointless? Unless having laws to codify injustice is the point. We do have quite the history of that.
jenn
@The Thin Black Duke: I’m not sure that this is really the case, though. He wasn’t found not-guilty of murder, it was a mistrial. Though, as to the first part of your comment, unfortunately, I can’t argue with that. Florida’s take on SYG is incomprehensibly terrible.
Mnemosyne
@The Thin Black Duke:
Believe me, I don’t expect you to be happy about the verdict. But it’s getting on my nerves to see people talk about how Dunn is going to “walk free” when it’s no such thing.
jenn
@Villago Delenda Est: I think there *has* to be a retrial. I cannot imagine there not be, really. On the other hand, I really felt that Zimmerman was going to get put away, so in the “understanding Florida juries” department, I’m not doing so hot.
Glocksman
CNN had this quote from Dunn’s lawyer.
My question would be:
If they had a gun, why did he go back to his car to get his gun?
That’s not self-defense, that’s murder.
Also, real life isn’t the movies and firing at a fleeing vehicle isn’t self defense either.
Mnemosyne
@jenn:
IANAL, so I don’t understand why there’s a self-defense exception for killing someone in Florida, but no self-defense exception for firing a warning shot. It makes no sense at all.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne:
While he may not be “walking free”, the fact is, the murder of Jordan Davis has not been adjudicated…it’s in the limbo of mistrial status.
I see exactly what the concern here is. It may be a technicality as Dunn appears to be headed to the big house for a very long time, but it’s indicative of a culture that does not value the lives of all of its members the same.
SiubhanDuinne
@Anya:
I hated Florida during the six years I lived there. I’ve been back only two or three times since I left in 1975, only on business. Would not willingly set foot in the state now — with all respect to Betty Cracker, Mustang Bobby, and other decent Floridians. I don’t want to give that state one penny of my tourist dollars.
catclub
@Pogonip: At the New Orleans Zoo, the usual for the tiger is sleeping. But now, on the other side of the walkway, where she can smell (and hear), but not see, they bring out the elephants. And that is EXTREMELY interesting to a tiger. Pacing about, sniffing. pacing….
The keeper called it enrichment for the tiger.
jenn
@Mnemosyne: Honestly, I don’t understand Florida’s gun laws at all. They’re just terrible, all around.
Mnemosyne
@jenn:
Someone in the other thread (I think it was Omnes, who actually is a lawyer, though in Wisconsin) said what will probably happen is that Dunn will accept a plea bargain for the first charge since he was found guilty of the other ones. Any “mistrial” would be only for that one charge, not the whole case, so it’s not going to do him much good to have a whole new trial just on that one charge when he’s already going to prison for a few decades to come.
The Thin Black Duke
@jenn: Unfortunately, I do understand. I think the “Stand Your Ground” laws are doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
No, I get that. I would have to describe my emotions more as “relief” than anything else, because I was expecting a full acquittal.
But 20 (and more likely 60) years in prison is not “walking free” and I would hate to see people misread tweets like that and think that Dunn was acquitted of all of the charges when he was not.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
I agree. I don’t see how they go from this:
to acquittal on murder one, two and three as to the young man who was shot to death.
It pisses me off that the shooter invented a shotgun in the boy’s car. They can’t even be decent enough to just hide behind Florida’s ridiculous law and hope to get off. They have to invent these whole from-the-movies scenarios where it’s a battle and they’re the victor. It’s like they know the gun gives them a huge advantage over the unarmed people they’re shooting, so they have to create a situation where there’s equal force to preserve their manliness.
SuperHrefna
@Pogonip: Cats are mostly active at dawn and dusk and the rest of the time is grooming and napping time. That seems to hold true no matter how big or small the cat. I’ve never been able to figure out whether cats have very inefficient metabolisms or are just indolent.
As for Lily and Rosie I figure Tunch’s towering personality convinced them to go native years ago and now that they are living under the iron paw of Steve they don’t have much incentive to risk resuming normal doggy behavior.
Glocksman
@Mnemosyne:
The way it *should* work is that if you’re justified in drawing a gun due to bona fide threats to your life or serious bodily injury, you’re justified in using that gun whether its warning shots or three rounds center mass.
In reality, a lot of people seem to think ‘Oh, warning shots. It must not have been a serious threat’.
Mnemosyne
@The Thin Black Duke:
I’ve seen people talk about (and write books about) the “culture of honor” in the South, and I think it’s exactly what SYG laws like Florida’s are meant to enforce. Those kids were uppity to Dunn and his “honor” demanded that he be allowed to try and kill them in return. It’s seriously, seriously fucked up.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: The difference between first and second degree is premeditation. Both require the intent to kill. The question becomes whether going back to the car to get his gun is enough to prove premeditation.
If my thought is right, I would not be surprised if Dunn cops a quick plea rather than risk capital punishment if he is convicted of first degree.
Ben Cisco
I’m not going to dwell on this long b/c it’s too raw right now and I’m too angry right now, but I’m just going to leave this one question here: When it’s a black kid getting put into a hole in the fucking ground, why is it ALWAYS up to us to “be patient” or “be thankful for what we did get” or DEFEND THE GODDAMNED NON-THUGGERY/MAU-MAUISM/OTHER “DESERVING” ATTRIBUTE THAT SUPPOSEDLY JUSTIFIES AN ACQUITTAL/NON-VERDICT?
It’s like these assholes WANT the country burned down around their motherfucking ears…
Mnemosyne
@efgoldman:
So 12 people were supposed to be able to agree which of four (4) different charges Dunn should have been convicted of. No wonder they deadlocked.
I can understand giving jurors a choice between two options, but four makes it seem like the prosecutors couldn’t make up their own damn minds.
Glocksman
@efgoldman:
I look forward to hearing why they didn’t convict on a lesser charge.
Jordan Rules
@efgoldman: Interesting. So it wasn’t just a premeditation hang up I guess.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay:
I don’t see it either. Like the Sideshow Bob quote, it’s just mind boggling that while this guy has been found guilty of attempted murder, someone actually got hit by a bullet and died as a result and they can’t reach a verdict on that.
KG
@rikyrah: honestly, I think this is on the prosecutor. They got a conviction on three counts for attempted second degree. If second degree had been available for the decedant, maybe the jury convicts on that. I don’t know if Florida law allows them to bring charges on first and second degree. The difference between first and second degree is premeditation vs heat of passion. Based on the limited facts, it’s easy to sell heat of passion, it’s harder to sell premeditation. But I’m not a criminal lawyer, my practice has been in other areas
Mnemosyne
@Ben Cisco:
I’m not asking for any of that. I just don’t want people to tweet that a guy who’s going to prison for 20 to 60 years “walked free.” It’s misleading about the facts and it doesn’t do anyone any good.
JPL
@Glocksman: It could have been between 1st and 2nd. Like you, I look forward to find out why they didn’t convict on a lesser charge.
rikyrah
– -☺@keithboykin
Q: Does the partial verdict in the #DunnTrial create a perverse incentive to kill the victim to make it easier to plead self-defense?
– – -☺@TheReidReport
So Michael Dunn faces at least 60 years in prison, but ZERO years in prison (now) for killing Jordan Davis. Ah, Florida. #DunnTrial
– – -☺ @theonlyadult
Of course Angela Corey can smile. No one will murder her child. #DunnTrial
– – -☺@keithboykin
The verdict in #DunnTrial means there is no conviction for killing Jordan Davis, only for shooting at the other people in the car.
– – – -☺ @TheRawestMike
Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Dunn approached Jordan. Florida needs a “mind your business” law. #DunnTrial
gwangung
@efgoldman: frack the hold outs. frack them hard.
They HAD to believe that cock and bull story. No other way.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: The lesser charges are automatically included. Generally, first degree equals intent to kill plus premeditation; second degree requires intent to kill; voluntary manslaughter requires intentional action but no intent to kill or intent to kill but mitigating factors; involuntary manslaughter doesn’t require intent.
lamh36
@Omnes Omnibus: Good he was convicted. But wait, didn’t the kid DIE. A mistrial was declared on the fuckin’ murder charge. There will be some who say well at least you got a conviction. Bullshit. Fact, the man KILLED Jordan Dunn…period. Yet the jury hung on that charge. I ask again, what, the fuck is the value of a Black boys life in Florida? Not much if you ask me.
The Thin Black Duke
@Ben Cisco: Exactly. As James Baldwin so wisely observed years ago, “the most dangerous thing a society can do is to create a man who has nothing left to lose.”
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
IIRC, he wasn’t acquitted of that charge — the jury deadlocked, so it’s a mistrial on that charge only. Omnes is probably right that he’ll do a plea deal rather than insist on a full trial on the single charge when he was convicted of three (four?) of the attempted murder charges.
Glocksman
On another subject entirely, I’m doing what I call ‘Bachelor cooking on the cheap’ in my crock-pot.
One small pork roast, half a jar of store brand mild salsa, 1/4 cup of generic asian grill marinade, and a cup of frozen ‘seasoning blend’ vegetables.
Cook for 8 hours and see if it’s any good.
MikeJ
I think better instructions to the jury should have solved the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, manslaughter conundrum.
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36: See my reply to rikyrah above.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: She didn’t say that the jury acquitted on that charge. She was agreeing with my assessment that a jury that would convict on counts 2, 3 and 4 wasn’t going to have someone vote to acquit on count 1.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Seriously, how does a jury in Florida ever come to a decision in any case if they always have to consider four separate charges on a single crime?
I’m probably a little biased because that seems to be what the major fuckups are here in California when there’s a big case — the jurors think a crime happened but can’t agree which of the multiple charges the person should be convicted of, so they deadlock and it’s a mistrial.
Poopyman
A friend on Facebook claims the prosecutor will retry, but I can’t find corroboration.
KG
@efgoldman: ok, that’s shocking… If nothing else, the facts suggest negligent homicide (which is probably what third degree is).
Based on that, the verdict is rather confusing
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Because the other option can be all or nothing. Charge murder 1 only and the jury doesn’t buy the premeditation argument, the guy goes free.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ah, okay. So it may have been more like the McInerney case I linked to above where the jury deadlocked on which charge to convict the defendant of, not whether to convict or acquit. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@Mnemosyne: AFAIK, you didn’t say anything. The jury did.
Poopyman
@MikeJ: It’s entirely possible that some members of the jury rejected the conviction on a lesser charge to force a Murder One retrial. We just don’t know at this point.
Glocksman
@Poopyman:
CNN is reporting she will.
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
Well, they could, though. They could be hung up on which murder charge. I wouldn’t be too happy if I were Mr. Dunn. Apparently he was annoyed and whiny waiting for trial, he just wants to get on with his life. This is a real inconvenience for him.
Also, can they they stop with “I was in fear for my life”? It grates on me after Zimmerman. Like it’s a magic incantation that means they go home, if they get the words in just the right order.
Yeah, we know, you were “in fear for your life” but was how was this day any different than any other day where you’re walking around armed and terrified?
He’s lucky he didn’t kill anyone else when he was shooting wildly into that car. No one in that whole area was safe from him. I just get no sense that there’s any consideration that other people have rights too.
lamh36
@jenn: it’s Florida. and I’d bet even money that he won’t be re-tried.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@Mnemosyne: Also, MO FUCKING ADJUDICATION FOR KILLING A BLACK KID.
This really isn’t that dammed hard to grok…
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Yes, that is my guess. It is why I think condemnation of the jury is premature. If someone was pro-acquittal, then all the rage being expressed here is understated.
MikeJ
@MikeJ: I think we can rule out third degree. Looking at the Fla code, that appears to be what other places call felony murder, that is, killing somebody, whether you meant to or not, in the commission of another felony. The shooter wasn’t robbing a bank or anything, so third is out.
I’d think 2nd would be easy to prove, manslaughter would be ridiculous. If it came down to 1st or 2nd and I was on the jury, I’d give him 2nd and just get him sent off to prison. the difference between the two probably isn’t big enough to make a difference in this case.
Kay
@Mnemosyne:
Right, I know, I think omnes is right that they can’t get from convicting on attempted murder on the three boys to NO murder charge on the boy who was killed, so they hung up on which murder charge.
KG
@Omnes Omnibus: so, then it’s possible that they couldn’t agree on a degree? That seems peculiar.
Mnemosyne
@Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):
I’m not sure they actually did, though. Take a look at my link in #104, where a California jury deadlocked not on whether or not the defendant should be acquitted — they all agreed he was guilty — but exactly which charge he should be convicted of. With four possible charges to choose from, it could be that Dunn’s jury deadlocked because they couldn’t agree which one of the four to convict him of, not because a majority thought he should be acquitted.
At least, I hope so. You never know with frickin’ Florida juries.
ETA: Note also that the California case I linked to was a hate crime case where the victim was murdered for being gay, so that’s another reason I think there’s a parallel to be pissed off about.
AnotherBruce
@The Thin Black Duke: That’s why he fired so many shots, he was trying to kill them all.
lamh36
@Mnemosyne: tell that to the next Black boy who plays his “thug music” down in Florida. I have a nephew who is 14 years old.
He likes that “thug music”. He likes to hang with his friends and they like to listen to the “thug music” together.
I pray every day he leaves the house to hang with his friends that he doesn’t come upon a white man with an ax to grind or a full clip who can’t stand those “thug” kids and their “thug” music
Omnes Omnibus
@AnotherBruce: Of course he was. In my mind the only question here has ever been whether it was first or second degree murder. That is, whether the time he took to go get his gun was enough to constitute premeditation. The intent to kill is pretty fucking obvious.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay:
This is the problem with glibertarians in general. They don’t seem to grok that they’re not the only ones with rights. But then again, according to Ayn Rand, why should they? They are the center of the universe.
KG
@Kay: in fear for life is necessary for self defense cases, usually anyway. But, it’s two pronged, subjective and objective. The first one is whether the defendant thought he was in danger. The second is whether a reasonable person in a similar situation would have the same fear. Also, normally for self defense, there’s a requirement for proportional force, meaning if I guy is punching you, you can’t respond by shooting to kill. At least in theory
Culture of Truth
This Dunn verdict probably has had the highest ratio of bad reporting / tweeting to accurate reporting / tweeting you’re likely to see. I wonder who many actually sat through every minute of the trial or saw all the evidence.
My own guess is Dunn a racist bastard who I would have convicted of murder, but not necessarily of 1st. But that’s a guess.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
thanks lamh
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
Exactly. His actions tell us all we need to know, and the evidence that the jurors did not see, were not allowed to see, of his very obvious racism, would have made it impossible for any reasonable person to not glean premeditation on his part.
This guy lived the fantasy of the gun fetishists, opening fire with his manly weapon on thugs(!) and successfully extinguishing the worthless life of one of the mud people in the process. Straight out of a Hollywood action movie and the NRA play book.
The Thin Black Duke
@AnotherBruce: That’s what I said earlier. Thanks to “Stand Your Ground” laws, the burden of proof is on the corpse, and hey, he ain’t saying too much, is he?
Pogonip
I’ve got it! Lily and Rosie are physically unable to speak English. This is the only way they have to say: “John, you are the best thing that ever happened to us and we love you. We don’t want you to get hurt. The next time you get one of your strange urges, shave OUR butts. See? They are right out here where you can find them easily.”
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
I have a nephew who is mixed race. He is going NOWHERE FUCKING NEAR FLORIDA if I can help it. If he wants a Disney experience, he can come out here to Disneyland.
I wasn’t raised with the fear like you all were, but I started to learn it after I married into the family.
PurpleGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: IIRC, they have an indoor skiing slope at one of the shopping malls.
Glocksman
@KG:
The only exception to the proportionate force rule I’m aware of is if there’s a huge physical disparity between the assailant and the victim.
If you’re six feet tall and 200lbs and get into a fistfight, good luck proving you were justified in shooting the attacker.
OTOH, if you’re a 4’11 95lb woman and you shoot your unarmed 6’0, 200lb attacker, your odds of a successful self defense plea are much greater.
Even then, the reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury has to exist.
rikyrah
Allan Thompson @allandthompson
Follow
All Zimmerman and Dunn had to do was stay in their cars and drive away and 2 TEENAGERS are still alive today. #DunnTrial
4:40 PM – 15 Feb 2014
Steve from Antioch
I love our jury system. I make by living as a lawyer because we have juries in this country. That said, it’s absolutely grating to listen to people who didn’t sit through the evidence at trial offer up their opinions about what the jury did or did not do wrong.
Not to get all legalese, but that shit is complicated, yo!
Seriously, in every trial in which I have participated that has had significant media coverage, there was something wrong about EVERY report or newspaper article EVERY SINGLE TIME. Sometimes it was as trivial as a misspelling. But often witness testimony was mischaracterized, facts were reported during the trial that were not presented in the courtroom, certain “facts” are presented without also noting that other witnesses directly contradict those “facts”. And that’s just simple factual stuff. Don’t even get me started about the dog vomit that results when non-lawyers (and even some lawyers) try to summarize that “the law” is.
It is truly amazing to talk to jurors after a trial – we always try to do that and often do it jointly with the other side. Again, every single time, the jurors will ask about things or raise questions that never occurred to either me or the opposing attorney. Every single time. Sometimes, they will also reach conclusions that both the opposing counsel and I know are wrong and contrary to the evidence. The point being, there is 1) “the truth” about what happened, 2) the “right” thing to do about it, 3) what the jury decides about 1 and 2, and finally 4) what mostly uninformed bystanders think should have happened. All four of these are NEVER the same.
A jury trial isn’t American Idol, we all don’t get to hear some snippets of evidence and get a 100 word summary of the law and decide that the jury was “right” or “wrong”. Sure, it’s fun internet commentary, but it really does a disservice to the system to imagine that such criticisms have any value.
Kay
@KG:
Right. The reason “I was in fear for my life” gets on my nerves is because Zimmerman repeated it over and over again in the four interview transcripts I read, and Zimmerman was familiar with self defense statutes because he had taken a course on them, and he affects this incredibly smarmy ass-kissing posture when he’s talking to police. Sadly, they seemed to lap it up.
I’ve grown a little tired of this whole category of shooters we’re creating, and how they’re treated as people who somehow stumbled into a “tragedy”. It’s just bullshit. They’re aggressive as hell. They’re going out of their way to shoot these people.
KG
@Glocksman: yeah, didn’t include that exception, mainly because (as you know) the law us really all about exceptions to the exceptions to the exception
Jordan Rules
@rikyrah: And there it is. Simple as that.
It is the new black crow. Straight up. Fits in perfectly with the Prison Industrial Complex.
SiubhanDuinne
@rikyrah:
Yup. That’s the part I never understand. Just, if you feel threatened, get in your car, pedal to the metal, and get the fuck outta harm’s way.
Omnes Omnibus
@rikyrah: This is something anyone with any sense knows to be true.
Pogonip
@Mnemosyne: I’m not taking MY kid anywhere near Florida, and we’re both white. Anybody can encounter with a gun and by Florida law it appears to be open season on darn near everybody. I don’t think anyone should go to Florida and I think those living there should move if it all possible.
Pogonip
I meant to say “…encounter a nut with a gun…”. Sorry. I’m typing too fast tonight.
rikyrah
– -☺@essveecee
Is it me or does the #DunnTrial verdict make it seem like he was punished for not succeeding
SuperHrefna
@Ben Cisco: This. It’s sickening. It makes me sick with fear for all the dark skinned boys and men I know, heartbroken at the mess that is race relations in this country. Black lives are not given full value, they are not treated with equal love, dignity and respect. Verdicts like this are a kick in the gut and requests for patience are a slap in the face.
schrodinger's cat
Speaking of Florida, has anybody heard from Betty Cracker? How is her mom?
jenn
@lamh36: Well, I’m hoping you’re wrong! Every time I hear about one of these cases, the coil in my innards winds a little tighter. I really am hoping, though, that the mistrial is a case of the jury being unable to decide between Murder 1 and Murder 2, rather than a division between those thinking it was murder vs those advocating for acquittal. Florida has proved me wrong before, but I really think it has to be the former. Actually, I just checked, and Corey has now said that there WILL be a retrial.
Cervantes
@dr. luba:
What the underlying study says: 74% picked “The Earth goes around the sun.”
On the same question, we have data from other places:
EU (2005): 66%
India (2004): 70%
Malaysia (2008): 72%
South Korea (2004): 86%
jenn
@Pogonip: Exactly.
SuperHrefna
@Pogonip: I’m a white Briton and I have always been too frightened to go anywhere near the American south. The thought of my very dark skinned nephew going there fills me with horror. Thank FSM he lives in Berkeley. I even get nervous when he visits me here, because Long Island has it’s own abundant population of racist mouth breathing motherfuckers. He’s only eleven and I guard him like a hawk when I take him out anywhere around here.
Plantsmantx
@Omnes Omnibus:
The fact that they asked questions about self-defense and especially justifiable deadly force up to the very end suggests (to me, anyway) that one or more of the jurors didn’t think he should be convicted of any level of murder…or even manslaughter, for that matter.
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
They should add some “threat” type charges to act as a check. I don’t know why they don’t get charged with those when their gun goes off and doesn’t happen to kill anyone. These are public places. It’s pure luck that there isn’t a higher body count. I guess it’s our duty to hit the floor and avoid injury whenever one of these people decides to unload their gun at the convenience store or it goes off when they’re waiting for a table at a restaurant. Its like they have super-duper “rights” and it’s on us to adjust to the increased risk.
batgirl
@Kay: Kay when you look at the questions from the jury to the judge earlier that were reported, I’m not so sure that some on the jury didn’t see the shooting of Davis as self-defense but the other boys as attempted murder. These are the questions that were sent to the judge:
Here it looks like at least some on the jury may have seen the shooting of Davis as justifiable while the shots at others not. Really won’t know unless someone from the jury talks.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Steve from Antioch: It’s always a surprise what a jury finds important that you never expected. And of course, not being hindered by the rules of evidence, we know may more details than this jury heard.
I agree with Omnes and Kay that logic suggests that the deadlock was between 1st and 2nd degree for a conviction. The guilty on the other charges makes not sense if the issue were simply G/NG, period, on the murder charge. I’d be not at all surprised if there were some plea negotiations in his future.
trollhattan
@SuperHrefna:
Ever see this “Top Gear” episode? Even Tory Jeremy get a eye-opener, touring the South.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-gear-season-9-episode-3-all-rightsbbc-uk_part-1_2199122.htm
Steve from Antioch
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
No offense, but I would be very surprised if the public knew a fraction of what the jury knew. From what I can piece together, the trial lasted about two weeks. The transcript from my last two week trial was about 1,800 pages long. Most news stories I’ve read about this in the past few hours have managed to summarize the trial in few hundred words.
You may very well be right about what caused them to hang on the first count. I don’t even know what they were instructed. But I guess my point is that given that the jury spent some 30 hours deliberating, its obvious that they were not having a simplistic, knee-jerk reaction to anything and people who attribute the verdict to some simple bias by the jury are just morons.
SuperHrefna
@trollhattan: yeah! It seems like a scary place for people who don’t fit in.
Amir Khalid
@Cervantes:
Oh dear. We’re only about as smart as Americans.
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
Decline and fall, baby, decline and fall.
(On a more serious note: if you want to chase after the Malaysian data, let me know and I’ll provide a pointer.)