Wingnuts loved to quote this guy back in his “stuck on stupid” days during Katrina, but I doubt they will like this:
Retired U.S. Army Gen. Russel Honore, Louisiana’s most well-known 21st century military hero, said America is mired in a state of denial about its gun culture and that’s harming the country.
“As a country we’re in a state of denial because we’ve confused the right to bear arms with the right to carry arms all the time anywhere or anyplace you want,” Honore told Gannett Louisiana on Monday. “We have to have a different kind of conversation in America and be prepared to speak about the politically unspeakable.”
Honore said the string of recent mass gun murders — culminating with the tragic movie theater shooting in Lafayette Thursday in which two victims died — should provide a wake up call.
“It breaks my heart to see that happen in my home state or anywhere in America,” he said. “We’ve got a problem in this country, and at some point the politicians have to get down into the community and find some answers to this problem.”
Honore had considered running for governor this fall but decided against making the race earlier this summer.
The retired army general, best known for his role leading the Hurricane Katrina recovery in New Orleans, said during his time in the military soldiers “were required to clear their weapons and turn them in as soon as they came in from the field.”
“The best place for weapons when you’re not in the field is to be locked up in the garrison,” Honore’ said. “Our biggest problem before Desert Storm was (soldiers) accidentally firing their weapons, and they’re trained.
Remember when I pointed this out several years ago and keyboard commandos stated I was wrong, was lying about there being tape over magazines so we would have to remove them and remove the tip and reinsert them before firing, was lying about the .45 being my personal weapon because they had done google-fu and were absolutely sure that I would have had a 9mm (I didn’t- qualified on a 9mm at Knox, carried a .45 all through Germany and the Middle East, and the unit transitioned to 9mm as I was leaving, much to the chagrin of all the senior NCO’s) and that I had probably never been in the military at all but if I had I was a cook? Good times.
muddy
Just want to warn people not to derail the post about guns by talking about guns.
Mart
Many a fine keyboard pixel commander must have proven you have clearly photo-shopped all of your Army buddy photos as well.
Gin & Tonic
@muddy: That would be racist.
Pee Cee
@muddy:
Cole just posted about guns. Therefore, it is too soon to talk about guns. We should wait until emotions cool and we can talk about guns rationally, rather than overreacting in the heat of the moment. Oh, and what’s the model of gun used in the latest mass shooting? Gotta go stock up on those.
Xantar
I’m not so sure your puppies are real either. I demand photographic proof.
(In before Pogonip says it)
muddy
@Gin & Tonic: Apparently!
muddy
@Pee Cee: I was snarking on a thing a couple threads down.
trollhattan
Oh noes, Cole has summoned the winged monkeys. Everybody grab your shotguns and…oh…wait.
Pee Cee
@muddy:
It’s snark all the way down, then.
Laertes
Vividly. The poor dears were so confused. They’ve got a profound sense of entitlement: They feel that they properly own the military. Anyone not on their side, then, can’t possibly have ever been a soldier.
Pee Cee
@trollhattan:
There was a time when you had to mention Ron Paul to do that.
Jeffro
General Honore, can I buy you a cold one (and quick, before the wingers come to inspect your countertops or ask for your long-form birth certificate)?
Eric U.
I know I was just in the Air Force, but when we got on base during Desert Storm, they made us clean our guns and then check them into the armory. They never got quite so crazy as to give us bullets. Of course, my gun was just a 38, so it didn’t have the required stopping power anyway. I always thought that was pretty funny, because with the 38 I at least had a chance to get a shot off. The 9mm takes practice and thought to get the first shot off, two things that I figure I wouldn’t have when needed. We didn’t switch to the 9mm until after we got back, so I wouldn’t have thought the Army would have done that either
Jeffro
Great quote from someone who knows, which means of course it will be thoroughly scoffed at in Wingnutistan in 5…4…3…
Germy Shoemangler
gun related:
Here’s Bugs Bunny in his first film The Wild Hare
1940
mai naem mobile
OT but theres a Minn dentist who killed a well. known mature lion in Zimbabwe that pretty much looks like an illegal and/or very botched hunt and hes just getting shamed on the Twitter machine. Big white hunter also has pics of him with leopard and rhino kills. Dr Walter Palmer of Eden Prairie just in case a BJr goes to this small dicked man.
Germy Shoemangler
@mai naem mobile: I had fun reading his yelp and google reviews.
muddy
@Pee Cee: It’s snark in that comment. The thread cited was not snark, so no, not all the way down.
Belafon
The flaw in Honore’s reasoning is that gun nuts are always out in the field, even in the restroom or at a theater.
Xboxershorts
Your potatoes were killer John
the Conster
We need a new SCOTUS that will correctly interpret the 2nd amendment to emphasize the first clause – the part about a well regulated militia – before anything meaningful can happen.
kindness
You know what would change the debate about guns here in America? If DFHs started packing heat then there would be a ‘groundswell’ of support for stopping ‘people’ from carrying weapons in public. It’s already happened here in California. When the Black Panthers started making the rounds armed all of a sudden a gun friendly governor Ronnie Reagan pushed through a law making it illegal. Granted the Black Panthers were you know, black. Maybe that is a higher bar than DFH’s but I suspect long hairs & liberals walking around with guns would change Republicans bleating some. Me? I would never walk around open carrying. My ego isn’t that toddlerish.
White Trash Liberal
You can’t own a firearm and live in the barracks or in military/ppv housing.
You can’t qualify on the annual range if you are a safety violator. If you fail to qualify, you turn in your rifle card and cannot operate small arms.
The military is intensely regulatory about these implements of death. Would that it were so throughout the country.
If manufacturers could be sued, a regulatory environment would exist where, much like other potentially devices, safety features would be implemented. Designing a bottle with a child resistant cap, for example. But not guns. The same toddler who can’t open a bottle of aspirin can fire a revolver and kill their mom at Walmart.
I stand by what I said about gun threads becoming about gun specs and gun use. And that the 2nd amendment absolutists are part of the white power movement. All the butthurt in the world about diversity of opinion doesn’t change the truth that the US is insane about small arms.
raven
Being old, I had never heard of the tape on the round-in-the-magazine taping but, sure enough, the google revealed that is was SOP, not just in John’s AO, but on the Korean DMZ as well. There are also big “No Weapons Allowed” signs on all VA facilities. Someone is onto something.
dedc79
@the Conster: And we’re probably only one vote away. President Hillary would likely have the opportunity to deliver that additional vote, in her second term if not her first.
I expect things will get very ugly though if/when it happens.
Jeffro
@White Trash Liberal:
The military is also quite realistic about what climate change is going to do in terms of national security, their bases, affected populations around the world, and so on. They are just about the ultimate pragmatists. It might behoove Dems at all levels to point out all the areas where Democratic policies agree with the military’s outlook and planning…watching Reps trying to deal with the dissonance would be priceless.
Roger Moore
@Xantar:
The cat, also, too.
jl
Not sure why Cole is so worried about gun control. When we get real freedom and realize the second amendment our Founders really meant to implement, he will be qualified to run a tank around his neighborhood and blow anyone who annoys him in any way to simithereens, and their damn house too…, er… I mean anyone who he very sincerely believes to be a mortal threat to his safety and freedom, that is what I meant of course.
Anyway, when real freedom comes, Cole has the training to RULE his little domain. And that is what this country is about, right?
Roger Moore
@Belafon:
Yep. They’re way, way out in left field.
Mike J
@Jeffro: The military are also big fans of solar power. More solar = fewer fuel tankers resupplying forward bases = fewer targets.
Gin & Tonic
@Germy Shoemangler: From what I’ve seen, Dr. Walter Palmer of Eden Prairie, Minnesota, is having what you’d call a bad day.
White Trash Liberal
@Jeffro:
That was how DADT was repealed. I agree on getting pragmatic input.
The military is also very aware of veteran gun violence. The push to regulate and reform has to come from some place. The media and social marketplace is too beholden to small arms manufacturers.
Amir Khalid
@Gin & Tonic:
Even the top story in the Wonkette thing to the right is about him. Another summer vacation, this time away from weapons and hunting, might seem tempting to him right now.
ETA: I just googled Dr Walter Palmer. He’s world famous now, God help him.
coin operated
Completely off topic, but the White House responded to the online petition to pardon Snowden.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden
the Conster
@Amir Khalid:
He’s getting a little taste of what it’s like to be hunted. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving fucking asshole.
Roger Moore
@White Trash Liberal:
Most guns do have safety features designed to keep them from firing when they aren’t supposed to. If nothing else, it is always possible to leave them unloaded- or at least without a round in the chamber- so that you have to deliberately load them before you can fire them. That’s exactly what John is describing, though his unit added the extra step of putting tape over the top of the magazine so it would take extra steps just to be able to load.
Unfortunately, just as many people replace the child-proof caps on their medicine bottles so they can get to their pills faster, many gun owners deliberately avoid using the many safety features built into their weapons so they can start shooting faster. They claim this is because they need to be ready to fire at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately, it also means they can easily fire accidentally with a drop of their weapon, or that a toddler can fire the weapon if one should get hold of it.
Omnes Omnibus
@White Trash Liberal:
You certainly can. You just can’t keep the weapon in your quarters. It must be stored in the armory.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Battleground America from the New Yorker (via a helpful commenter in an earlier thread):
One would think the clear “original intent” arguments would have carried the day in DC v. Heller if the SCOTUS majority were really interested in looking at the facts. But wait… :-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Roger Moore
@Jeffro:
It wouldn’t be hard for them. They just have to point out that Obama has appointed all of the higher-level commanders, and he’s obviously made agreeing with him politically a condition for promotion. That’s why the Jade Helm is such a danger; he’s finally had time to get complete command of the military, so a coup is now imminent.
dedc79
@Roger Moore: seems like it’s time that expression changed from left to right field. I know it originated as a reference to the person positioned the furthest from first base on the baseball diamond, but still.
Jeffro
@Mike J: @White Trash Liberal: So, gun control, solar power, gays in the military, use of force only as a last resort…are we sure our friends on the right know exactly what this pinko organization is really up to?
Jeffro
@Roger Moore: I dunno…I’m still waiting for one of them to explain to me how Obama can be both Hitler and Chamberlain at the same time.
muddy
@White Trash Liberal:
No specs were mentioned. Describing the proper use of firearms in a place where there is no problem with how people use them is not butt hurt. No one on the thread was a 2nd absolutist or part of the white power movement, and I offered my notions of strict laws concerning the owning and use of the guns. Not sure how you were able to spin that into a racist, spec-driven, 2nd absolutist BS screed.
Indeed the US has a terrible issue with guns, it really goes without saying, doesn’t it? Must we preface personal anecdote by stating bona fides in every post in a liberal blog one has participated in for years, and people generally get where you’re coming from?
geg6
@White Trash Liberal:
Italicized words added for accuracy.
geg6
@the Conster:
This.
sigaba
@White Trash Liberal:
I have an idea, we propose gun control legislation, and we design it to basically mirror military regulations on firearms, and we tell everyone that we’re giving gun owners the same rights all soldiers enjoy when using their private weapons.
We could call it the States Rights’ Militia Authorization Act or something. I suppose it wouldn’t hold up…
White Trash Liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
You are right. I stand corrected.
JDM
They’d claim you were a cook, as an insult? And I’ll bet they were Steven Segal fans.
low-tech cyclist
@White Trash Liberal:
The military is clear on the concept of guns being lethal weapons, and treats them accordingly. It doesn’t regard them as fetish objects, or the physical expressions of an allegedly inalienable right, but weapons of war.
gbear
@muddy: I think that WTLib got this blog mixed up with Little Green Footballs.
I like a lot about that site, but once the regulars get talking about their guns, it’s pure porn.
White Trash Liberal
@muddy:
You continue with the racism charge. That’s your derp.
The thread was about vigilante open carry patrols. Amir asked a question, and the thread turned into a hunting discussion. I pointed out that gun threads become these sorts of enthusiast discussions. You kirk kicked me and called me a racist for daring to point at the white male power component of gun proponents.
I did not say that you are a 2nd amendment gun humper. I said that our discourse, thanks to gun humpers, becomes about guns themselves rather than how to regulate their sale and use.
I apologize for being strident and putting you on a side that you don’t belong. But at the same time calling me a racist was derpy.
Jeffro
@low-tech cyclist: @sigaba: I like the legislative idea – anything that closely mirrors what the military does, because then people would talk about why this is their policy (i.e., what low-tech said).
Who was that comic who recently did a nice stand-up about guns and how there’s really only one reason for private ownership of them? It was something along the lines of “f___ off, I like guns” and that’s it. He then proceeded to demolish every usual reason given for having a gun in the home.
Anyway, if we were going to have a sensible policy that mirrored what the military does, it would be something like, “Unless you’re off on a hunting or camping trip, your guns have to be a) in your house or at the local range and b) locked up, period.” Never happen of course, but just picture it.
Gex
@Jeffro: Killin’ brown people. Which is why they tolerate all that other stuff.
muddy
@gbear: I don’t believe I offered anything at all pornish, and don’t appreciate being mashed in with gun nuts from another site I’ve never read. If he is offended by them then he should bitch at them.
If that was his reason at all.
Roger Moore
@low-tech cyclist:
The military also has lots of practical experience about what happens when groups of people with loaded weapons are placed in close proximity.
trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
Pretty sure Steeeeve’s big enough to show on Google Earth, should there be a lack of recent phonecam shots.
bystander
The Rude Pundit has a great blog post on the deliberate misreading of the Second Amendment. The comparison between the Aztecs and us at the heart of the post is pretty chilling.
Gavin
Surely the general has become a Librul Soshulist now that he’s weak.
The last time he was a Real Hero was 2008! He’s probably not even in shape!
chopper
to be fair, you used the word ‘clip’ which apparently means you never, ever served.
Omnes Omnibus
@chopper:
In my experience, soldiers used the word “clip” far more often than they used magazine.
Missouri Buckeye
@Jeffro:
We’ve already seen it. The story is that the military brass don’t really believe in climate change, but are kissing up to Democrats so that they won’t get their budgets cut.
You totally underestimate the ability of wingnutz to rationalize and project.
muddy
@Omnes Omnibus: In my experience gun nuts all said clip too, for decades, and only started saying magazine once they could chastise liberals on the internet.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
That does it. Everything Cole ever says about guns is now rendered completely invalid.
Seanly
@dedc79:
Well, Camille Paglia is vomiting all over Salon about how Bill Clinton is just like Bill Cosby and therefore we mustn’t vote for Hillary Clinton. Apparently she will also say something about Republican candidates. I’m sure it’ll be something like “Even the liberal Paglia likes Ted Cruz and Donald Trump. Ivana had it coming.”
This isn’t the first time Salon has some hit piece on Democrats with a promise for a similar hit piece on Republicans…
RE: the lion-killing douchenozzle, apparently the NYT had a piece fawning over him in 2009 while he was currently serving probation for illegal kills in the US. I’m beginning to take follow the mode that if the NYT is fer it, I’m agint it.
Back on topic, my sister-in-law and her racist husband are now nothing-but-pro-guns in their voting. They are perfectly encapsulated by John’s last sentence in his original post back in 2012.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Jeffro:
Don’t forget that socialized medicine.
trollhattan
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thereby conserving precious syllables, also, too.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linnaeus: Or it could be the other way around, no?
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
My grandfather used to say clip, which I suspect was out of habit. He served in World War II and was issued an M1 Garand, which you do in fact load with a clip.
Omnes Omnibus
@trollhattan: Well, they often used the working “fucking” in conjunction with it, so it evened things out.
Jeffro
@Missouri Buckeye:
Fair enough, but I’m learning. Got into an email back-and-forth yesterday w/ a friend who was like, adamantly opposed to a $15/hr minimum wage. I think we were on exchange #9 or #10 before all his supposedly sound economic arguments went out the window and he goes, “They just don’t deserve it”.
We can’t even agree to come back to the issue in a year or two and see what the impact of $15/hr is, because…wait for it, wait for it…he doesn’t trust government statistics (at least not when a Democrat is president). I guess I am supposed to wait for Fox News (or perhaps the US Chamber of Commerce??) to report that President Obama and #raisethewage were right??
Ah well…I sent him this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
and asked him to get back to me with his thoughts on whether or not the working class in this country deserve a raise.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Impossible. We know the Real Problem With Guns is people using terms in an inexact fashion, which of course never happens in discussions about any other policy
White Trash Liberal
@Seanly:
Paglia has HCDS. She is a hallmark case.
Salon lost me when they gave that pseudointellect a regular column.
trollhattan
@Omnes Omnibus:
Heh :-)
“The count shall be three, and three shall be the count.”
Denali
HGDS?
coin operated
Thought I knew what HGDS was. I read it as HCDS…
boatboy_srq
@kindness: I still say the best answer to this is to honor the entire amendment. Take the “well-regulated militia” part seriously.
Disband the DoD below overall command level; mandate service for a minimum of 24 months from every citizen (with alternatives – but not escapes – for conscientious objectors, disabled, etc, and pay according to current ), and mandate that each citizen provide his/her own weaponry – right down to the big stuff. Uniforms, body armor, unarmed transportation is all on DoD, and the rest is on you. The Kochs could probably afford a CVN each, Trump an F-35, Adelson maybe an SSBN. Can’t or won’t pay for them? That’s too bad: I’m sure there’s a scrapyard that can make use of them. The lower tax bill you got when we closed the DoD and put everything up for sale should have made at least some difference. Still can’t/won’t pay? Pity. Oh and the VA closed its admissions with the last batch of professional soldierfolk; insurance is all on you now (aren’t you happy about the ACA now?).
There’ll be a momentary cheer as the big Military/Industrial federal programs go away, and spending and taxes drop accordingly, but it won’t last. Carry this far enough and we’ll hear the whingeing about “2nd Amendment [anything]” stop pretty darned quickly.
I don’t think we need to go anywhere near Starship Troopers-grade citizen/civilian class distinctions; we just need to call the ammosexuals’ bluff. They want their guns, fine: they better be prepared to use them in the national defense. And they’d better be prepared to find somebody with deep enough pockets to provide all the additional materiel.
Redshift
@Jeffro: I also liked the proposal from Stonekettle Station to make gun owners legally responsible for handling their weapons in the manner specified in the NRA safety manual, and liable for the consequences if they don’t (including losing their right to own them for severe or repeated violations, just like we do with cars.) They’re always going on about how their objection is that gun control hurts responsible gun owners, so laws that explicitly ensure that penalties only apply to those who aren’t should be fine, right?
Marc
@Redshift: @Redshift:
If you want to read it, here is the latest Gunfail installment: http://tinyurl.com/o2ef3rc
And here is the link to Stonekettle Station: http://www.stonekettle.com/2015/06/bang-bang-sanity.html
Citizen_X
@Redshift: I think we should have a movement to prosecute all negligent shootings. Note that I said “negligent,” not “accidental.” The latter don’t exist, as firearms don’t load or chamber ammo by themselves. The military, accordingly, only refers to (and punishes) “negligent discharges,” right?
So when little Johnny shoots himself because a pistol was left around the house (with a round in the chamber, natch), none of this crap about “the parents have suffered enough already.” No they haven’t, they still get to live, unlike their son! Charge them with negligent homicide.
muddy
@White Trash Liberal:
You linked my “derailment” with you not being a member of “the white gun club”. It’s not only whites that own and use guns.
My derailment was also not a derailment, as a question was asked and I answered it. Further questions were asked to me, which I then answered. None of those people were accused of derailment altho they were continuing that conversation. Indeed I was not the only one to find your notion of “white gun club” to be racist and stupid, but you didn’t call that person out either.
There’s your fucking derp. Maybe if you don’t bring up “white gun club” people would not say “racist” to you.
White Trash Liberal
@muddy:
You are just being deliberately obtuse at this point. I’d call out gin and tonic if that commentor insisted on being Aggrieved.
I got your point and acknowledged it. You insist on reading mine in a way that makes you look like a victim. Let’s part ways before this ends up in court and I get shared custody of your self importance.
boatboy_srq
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: The last suggestions that the Reichwing would be open to review of precedent, or original intent, went right straight to he11 with Cap & Trade, healthcare exchanges, and advanced directive planning. Same thing that happened with abstaining from pork/shellfish/blended-fabrics/adultery/whatever in Leviticus. The only statements they value are the ones they can bash Libruls with; the rest are just so much dated language from which the Faithful were Freed by Jefferson Jeebus Lincoln (the Third).
muddy
@Citizen_X: I completely agree. There are no gun accidents, only gun incompetences. Cleaning your gun and it went off, you are incompetent and should have your license taken away, just as though you were drunk driving and your license goes away. Have it sitting around and kids get it, negligence, contributing to delinquency, child abuse. Lose your license and your kids. I’d be strict as hell about it.
There should be yearly registration and licensing like for cars, with a multi-type competency test. And liability insurance required as well. Just as for cars. I said this in the other thread, but no mind was paid to any of that. Just the part where I was supporting slave patrols and gabbling about tech specs somehow. If the 2nd amendment could go away tomorrow I would cheer for it.
@White Trash Liberal: I said “racism” because you said “I am by choice not a member of the white gun club.” This suggests that people who are not white either don’t own guns or don’t use them to hunt. Guess what, they do. That’s *your* derp, to borrow your phrase.
In fact none of my stuff was about guns, and how great they are. My discussion (after it was raised by another and taken up by more) was that animals die so we can eat them. Hunting is no different than supermarket plastic meat trays unless you are a hypocrite. And that animals in the woods suffer more by dying of starvation without hunting.
Places with very strict gun laws still allow hunting, you know.
I say nothing about the bizarre uses people put their guns to, rather than using them properly and respectfully as dangerous tools. It interests me that I am the only one to hear about derailing and white gun clubs and etc, and I wonder why that is.
muddy
@White Trash Liberal: You called me out before anything became aggrieved, for nothing that was to do with me.
I got aggrieved afterwards because you kept up with it, with me alone.
But I just got annoyed for no good reason when you didn’t say personal word to me that I could take amiss. Again, fuck off, this is bullshit.
Seth Owen
Had a chance to see Gen. Honore in person during a command post exercise while I was in the Army Reserve. The man drips charisma and common sense out of his pores. I’d love to see him run for office.
He is, of course, right, but we can’t have a constructive conversation about guns in the current environment. As Someone noted, once we decided a classroom of dead first graders was something we could tolerate the debate was really over. I’m just hoping enough of my fellow Boomer white males will die off in the next ten years or so that we can revisit the conversation. Sadly, as I am battling cancer now my chances of living to see that day are somewhat diminished, but I’m still hoping.
Maybe if Clinton or Sanders geaats elected, the white male Boomer troglodyte vote will get sufficiently demoralized we can make a little progress.
Adam L Silverman
John,
It took a couple of days, but the most visited gun website/blog finally got around to this story:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/robert-farago/quote-of-the-day-retired-u-s-army-gen-russel-honore-edition/
All the too predictable action is in the comments. Bring your waders…
Also, to follow on from a comment above, here’s the link to Gary Willis actually explaining what bearin arms meant at the time of the founding:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1995/sep/21/to-keep-and-bear-arms/