Yankee Matt Yglesias notes:
Down South, naturally enough, one sees more Confederate flag bumpers stickers than are evident in my more habitual environs (New York, Cambridge, Washington, Maine, Europe…I’m quite the liberal elitist) and they were often paired with exhortions to “support the troops” or some other such thing. This brought to mind something that I always think is strangely neglected in the on-again-off-again Stars and Bars debate in this country, to wit: the Confederate flag is a flag of rebellion against the United States of America and thus an odd symbol for the erstwhile uberpatriots of Dixie.
The rebellious culture of Dixie is only neglected when people are stating that the only thing the flag stands for is racism. I disagree with Confederate flag wavers state that the rebellious culture is what the flag is all about, just as much as members of certain minority communities state the flag is all about racism. It seems to me that if Matt thinks this part of the debate appears to be missing, he really has not been paying attention to the debate at all.
For the record- I have no dog in this fight, and find it unfathomable that some members of the Dixie brigades do not recognize that like it or not, the flag is to many people a symbol of racism.
IXLNXS
The war between the states was all about agroculture versus industrial culture. It had to do with money, and slavery was just the fuel to inflame the sensabilities of Northerners.
After all the south had “free” labor, and the northern industries had to pay those pesky Irish after all.
Ricky
I generally abhor the rebel flag being displayed, & he’s generally a good guy but Matt was due for his monthly anti-southern spiel. It helps comfort him whenever he realizes that his ideas haven’t a snowball’s chance of enactment outside the high-crime low test score districts.
Slartibartfast
Matt probably hasn’t set foot in the South in his entire life. Although I’ve been often annoyed and disgusted at the occasional display of Confederate flags here, I’ve not once seen them anywhere in the vicinity of any pro-war sentiment. Or even any pro-troop sentiment.
And even if there were such juxtapositions, it doesn’t necessarily imply any sort of negative association. If it did, we could conclude that all who oppose the war are congruent with those who oppose the war and support troops fragging their own officers, for example.
Shoddy thinking. This guy actually gets paid to publish this sort of crap?
ha
Ricky-
I detect a little racism. We know African Americans, as a whole, do not generally like the Confederate flag. MY’s “ideas” as they apply to the confederate would certainly be popular among African Americans. You then say his “ideas” only suceed in high crime, low test score areas. Are you implying that black people automatically get low test scores? I certainly detect some soft bigotry.
ps. I’d be willing to bet there is more crime in metro Atlanta than in the NYC metro.
Now on to the confederate flag. Growing up in Minnesota the only people who ever displayed the flag were those who, when asked, would admit that hated black people. For them, as yankees, it was all about race. No idea if this is the case in the South.
Harry
The flag that Yglesias writes of is not the stars and bars. He is refering to the confederate battle flag which was derived from the Cross of St. Andrews. The stars and bars is the actual national flag of the Confederate States of America. It consists of eleven stars in a circle set upon a field of dark blue and opposite of the this field are three wide stripes; two red separated by one white. If Yglesias is going to be a condescending shit at least he should know what the hell he is talking about.
Ricky
Er, Matt’s white.
Was the part about my abhoring it too difficult to understand?
According to the recent vote amongst Georgians (who finally rid the state of the Democratic party instituted state flag with the confederacy included), quite a few whites don’t care for it.
I’m implying nothing, I’m outwardly declaring that Democratic districts that institute left-wing ideas have higher crime and lower test scores. Care to debunk? Bring out the statistics! In the words of John Kery: Bring……It……On.
Trust me, you don’t want to go there.
Time to recalibrate your detector. The only person who thought about skin color was you. My comment pertained to ideology (the word “ideas” should’ve been a dead giveaway).
The higher crime rates in Georgia come from the Atlanta area (overwhelmingly Democratic), which helps buttress my earlier assertion. The high crime rate areas in NY are also, not suprisingly, controlled most often by Democrats.
I’m not suggesting a correlation, only noting how dangerous it is to incorprate geography in with one’s thoughts.
I think I’ve pretty much outlined how accurate your detector is. What next, I questioned someone’s patriotism?
space
MY is 100% correct. Completely ignoring the racial element for the moment, the flag is a REBEL flag. It is completely contradictory to the idea of a Union.
Whether Matt calls it the stars and bars, the dixie flag, or the rebel flag, we know what it stands for: Treason against the Union.
And it should not fly over any government building in the U.S.
Slartibartfast
That last part was the only really sensible bit. The rest was crap.
That said, I think the state government of South Carolina has every right to fly the confederate flag. They also deserve whatver ridicule is heaped upon them as a result.
What’s the alternative? Are you going to pass a law, or something? Fond remembrance of treason (If you’re going to name it so; I’m not convinced. I think they were wrong, but treasonous?) does not, in itself, constitute treason.
Josh P.
I agree, there are many, many more things that are popular today that are at least as “treasonous” as flying the confederate flag.
At least the flag qualifies as a legitimate part of South Carolina’s history.
Flying it is not equal to saying they wish the confederacy was back again in all its “glory.”
HH
“Support the Troops” = Racism
We all know that’s what Yglesias was saying.
HH
Perhaps MY could have worked up just the slightest bit of outrage, by the by, over Sen. Hollings’ recent bigoted statements, seeing as he’s the guy who put that flag there in SC in the first place.
Russell Wardlow
While we all can agree that there are least some people who fly the flag for less-than-salutory reasons, there is also a rather innocuous reason for it: tradition, history and culture.
It’s certainly possible for people to be proud of a cultural background as a whole without endorsing every particular facet of it. If so, every culture able to trace its roots back more than 100 years or so would have quite a bit of blood on its hands.
The question then becomes whether slavery and its accoutrements are a separable element from Southern culture (that is, is it possible to honor Southern culutre in general without condoning slavery)?
Lots of people in the South would say yes, and would point to general the Southern values of tradition, religiosity, gentlemanly behavior, etc.
Harry
Space
I would not worry so much about people who fly the ‘stars and bars, the dixie flag, or the rebel flag’ as they actually tend to be the more patriotic bunch. No, the treasonous ones you should worry about now are the people who hold the first admendment with disdain and through intimidation attempt to stymie the voices of those with whom they disagree with, and those ‘citizens’ who would twist the Constitution, especially by legislating from the bench, to promote their own political agendas. There is nothing in the Constitution that says you have the right not to be offended. The power of the federal government begins and ends with the Constitution, everything not incorporated therein is left to the states. So get over it.
Scott Chaffin
The question then becomes whether slavery and its accoutrements are a separable element from Southern culture (that is, is it possible to honor Southern culutre in general without condoning slavery)?
Of course it is. Not every Rebel soldier or supporter was a slave-holder, not by a loooong stretch. This is hardly an argument worth having, except to remind everybody how idiotic some Yankees when they open their pie-holes can be about “Dixie”, even now in the 21st century. Sheesh.
HH
So would MY consider Michael Moore a hypocrite with his comments in praise of al-Sadr and company, saying they’ll win, while all the while wishing for his country back, dude?
cthulhu
I’ll be the first to admit that I lack the cultural background to really “appreciate” symbols of the Confederacy, but I always looked at them as…er…symbols of the Confederacy.
As such, I saw such flags as protests against the federal government that runs roughshod over states’ and individuals’ rights, in violation of the 4th (war on drugs seizures), 5th (“civil rights” cases when criminal cases have failed, prohibitive restrictions on the use of property essentially robbing the value of its ownership), and most especially the 10th amendment (the entire thing, word for word) — although this only hits the high points.
Oddly enough, it was only when I got older that I began to understand the vile legacy of racism and repression attached to the same symbols. It came as quite a surprise to find that, where I had seen the Confederate flag as a wistful echo of a choice not taken — a choice where speed limits were set by local interests instead of mandated from Washington, perhaps — there were others who (quite reasonably) saw it as an immediate symbol of chattel slavery, armed treason, and insurrection.
These days, I see “Dixie Flag” stickers on kids’ cars and wonder …is this guy a free spirit poking one in the eye of a too-intrusive Federal government — or some sort of race-baiting, America-hating, nihilist?
Harry
Last comment from me on this subject. In truth the secessionist states weren’t being treasonous. They did not want nor did they try for the collapse or overthrow of the United States of America. They simply wanted to leave the Union and there was nothing in the Constitution preventing it. The framers did not say to the states, “once your in you can’t leave.” To the Confederates, after formal secession, the garrisons at Fort Sumter and the like were an foreign army occupying sovereign states territory and had formally been asked to leave before using force.
The War Between the States was fought for economic reasons, everything else was secondary including slavery. In 1863 Lincoln finally used the devisisve issue of slavery in the form of the Emancipation Proclomation (which btw only freed those slaves held in Confederate territories) to rally support in the north where it was dangerously low.
That being said, I as a southerner am glad the south lost and the abhorrent practice of slavery in North America was put to a rightful end. And I am proud that southerners are the most patriotic of all regional populaces. Far from a sense of rebellion southerners are more in tune to liberty and freedom. That’s why we find the practice of the 2nd Amendment so important. If there is any one individual in this country who epitomizes the slogans ‘Don’t Tread on Me,” or “Live Free or Die,” it is a classically liberal southerner.
Gary Farber
“(If you’re going to name it so; I’m not convinced. I think they were wrong, but treasonous?)”
Good lord, Slarti, if massive armed rebellion against the government, and attempts to conquer the national government and capital, aren’t treason, what on earth is?
What would you call it if someone tried that now, or recently? If, say, the Black Panthers of the early Seventies, or American members of al Queda, were able to raise an army to march on Washington and attempt to conquer it, you’d not say they were guilty of treason? Um, what?
Russell Wardlow
Scott,
It’s not as simple as that, and simply pointing out that most Southerners didn’t own slaves as dispositive to the question just makes you look ignorant rather than the “Yankee” making the inquiry.
While most whites in the south were poor farmers or laborers, they still tended to support the slave system.
I’m not saying that this fact definitively settles the question of whether ante-bellum Southern culture is separable from slavery/racism (in the end, I tend to think it is), but to deny it is to treat the subject in as shallow a manner as those who condemn anything that came from a latitude below the Mason-Dixon line.
Ricky
Gary, I’m certainly not one of those southerners who is a seccessionist or who supports the confederacy in any way, but (IIRC) they didn’t march on Washington & try to capture it. The union started the actual fighting when THEY invaded the south, precisely because Lincoln wanted to keep our nation intact (thank goodness).
To keep your example intellectualy correct with history, what would you say if the gov’t sent soldiers to attack the black panthers (who, lord knows have called for a separate nation)?
Changes things around a little bit, huh?
NOTE TO POTENTIAL TROLLS: I’m not endorsing the confederacy in any way, in any manner, in any form, nor am I hinting, implying, causing you to infer or whatever. Take it someplace else, please.
Kimmitt
” The framers did not say to the states, “once your in you can’t leave.” ”
Er . . . the Constitution has procedures for what day of the year we should have votes on; I’m quite certain that had secession even been envisioned as a possibility, processes would have been enumerated.
If you read Article IV, it’s pretty clear that statehood is intended to be a permanent affair, with secession only possible, if at all, with the consent of Congress.
Kimmitt
As a matter of fact, I just refreshed myself on the Federalist Papers; consistent throughout them is the notion that we need a Constitution for the express purpose of preventing insurrection, factionalism, and the dissolution of the United States into multiple competing bodies.
The citizens of the South wanted to secede because they wanted to hold human beings as chattel slaves, and the citizens of the North had the intent of imposing a basic respect for humanity on them. Everything else is a fig leaf for this essential fact.