Will El Tri beat the Albicelestes or will it be a repeat of their 2006 matchup?
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by Randinho| 230 Comments
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Will El Tri beat the Albicelestes or will it be a repeat of their 2006 matchup?
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valdivia
Go Mexico.
You Don't Say
I picked up “How Soccer Explains the World” at the library. Just finished reading about history of Glasgow’s Rangers and Celtics and Serbia’s Arkan. Anyone else read it? Any thoughts?
ABC just ran version of Nike ad focusing on Rooney. Bad timing. ;-)
Der Blindschtiller
Go Mexico! Argentina is the Texas of South America.
Sorry Texas, just taking the piss. I could have just as easily substituted France.
Sorry France, I could of…
valdivia
@Der Blindschtiller:
:)
ETA: Zonal Marking’s analysis of the Germany UK game:
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/27/germany-4-1-england-tactics/#more-3713
demkat620
I am watching the Phils. Jamie Moyer just completed his 4000th inning pitched.
266 wins too. Guy’s pitching well right now.
Violet
I can’t decide who I want to win. Part of me wants Mexico to win, because they’re our neighbors, North America represent! But…although I realize Maradona is a complete egomaniac, I have to admit I’ve grown to love watching him on the side of the pitch. His antics are hilarious. It’s all about him. And I love watching Messi play and the Argentinian style.
So…I’ll probably cheer for it to be a good game. May the best team win.
stuckinred
I worked with a group of Spanish faculty and we had one Argentinian in the group. In confidence the Cuban-American told me “they are arrogant but they talk sooooo pretty”!
J.W. Hamner
I feel like I need to keep my string of dispiriting losses alive, so I’ll be cheering for Mexico… but I’d mainly like a good game.
valdivia
@Violet:
this is the thing that gets me. Maradona has made evrything about him. The team is great but because of him I really just don’t want Argentina to win. Again. I know I am being very petty but there it is.
AnotherBruce
Damn, Moyer is still pitching? That guy is ancient, I mean, he’s nearly as old as I am.
Corner Stone
@Der Blindschtiller:
They’re the most awesome, kickass and undeniably excellent place to live?
Corner Stone
@AnotherBruce: You’re one hundred and four?
demkat620
@Corner Stone: Jamie’s 105. ;^)
luci
@valdivia:
I have to say I agree with you. Go Mexico.
valdivia
The Univision narration of the game FTW.
Dave C
Since I live 20 minutes from Tijuana, and it will piss off the wingnuts, I’m now rooting for Mexico!
Ed Marshall
Totally OT but Glenn Greenwald absolutely tears apart Jeff Goldberg here, it’s brutal.
Violet
Mexico seem to be creating some chances.
valdivia
fuck
Corner Stone
@Ed Marshall: And it should be noted again that TNC went out of his way to declare his love for Jeffery Goldberg and how much he respected him as a reporter.
licensed to kill time
@Ed Marshall:
Wow, he really gave Goldberg the Glenzilla foot-stomp shit squish there.
Mark S.
@You Don’t Say
I read it a couple years ago. I have it somewhere. I remember the chapter on Serbia as being pretty harrowing.
GOAL! (or is it?)
I’ll try to find it. Like I say, it’s been a while since I read it.
Corner Stone
Yeah! Go the Texas of South America!
J.W. Hamner
That was pretty clearly offsides… bad luck for the Mexicans.
valdivia
that was offside
zzyzx
Soccer is going to have replay by 2014… No way they can’t…
Dave C
@Corner Stone:
Yeah, but he did that while politely ripping Goldberg’s position to threads.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
Again with the fucked up goal call. Every time they screw this up, someone mentions Armando Galarraga. Sorry, but that was one call. You can’t bring the same call up every time a World Cup ref screws up to make the point.
I hate instant replay and wish the entire idea would die in a fire, but FIFA absolutely, positively has to do something about its officiating, because it’s a complete disgrace.
Dave C
England and Mexico get hit by outrageously bad ref calls just when I start rooting for them…coincidence? I think not!
Spike Nesmith
@You Don’t Say:
Did it not teach you that Celtic isn’t plural? ;)
Violet
With all that time-wasting the refs did chatting with each other and the players trying to have input, they easily could have done a video review and had less impact on the flow of the “beautiful game.” FIFA is ridiculously stubborn in not allowing it in situations like that and having bad calls stand does not do the game any favors.
Spike Nesmith
Viva El D10s! What a game this is shaping up to be.
Good job the World Cup isn’t being played in Arizona, or the Mexican players would be busy presenting their papers.
valdivia
@Dave C:
can you start rooting for Argentina now? Or at least promise to root for them against Germany if they win today.
zzyzx
Not that it’s going to matter mind you.
valdivia
fuck fuck fuck
at least this one was a beauty
amorphous
@Corner Stone: Nope, not fooling anyone. We all know it’s a shithole populated by absolute lunatics (Travis County excepted).
That said… I live in fucking Albany, so who am I to disparage?
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
don’t put Beautiful Game in quotes like it’s not true. That’s a yellow card.
mark boggs
Example #1,206,456 on why they’re gonna need them some replay.
Course if Argentina continues on this pace, it won’t matter.
Corner Stone
@Dave C: I just don’t need the fig leaf.
YMMV
zzyzx
Wow Mexico really tried to just cause a PK on that last goal but they weren’t strong enough to stop the goal.
IM
Well, as expected.
ChrisB
FIFA likes it this way. Better to have the controversy than a correct result.
There can only be one winner; better to let the loser have an excuse or a complaint.
And now it’s 2-0.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
That goal was for real, though.
I wish Maradona would follow instant replay into the flames. I first started following the World Cup in 1986. My feelings for him haven’t improved in the interim.
Violet
@amorphous:
Well, thanks. I live in Texas and not in Travis County.
That second goal was beautiful. And go on and crucify me, but I love watching Maradona dance around and make it all about him. He cracks me up every time. What a total and complete character.
Corner Stone
@amorphous: You live in fucking Albany and you have anything to say about Texas being a “shithole”?
Damn.
valdivia
come mexico, get it together!
Spike Nesmith
Fifa’s biggest issue is that there’s nobody to hold them accountable. They don’t answer to anyone.
That said, it’s about time that England’s shady 1966 “goal” came back to bite them on the arse. Maybe now they’ll shut the hell up about it.
…oh, who am i kidding?
Alex S.
Uh… I pity Mexico. But yes, they’ve got to do something about controversial goals/non-goals.
valdivia
@Violet:
ugh you’re killing me with the Maradona love :)
IM
So much for my hopes that Germany could face Mexico.
On the other hand: Ein Spiel dauert 90 Minuten und ist zu Ende wenn der Schiedsrichter pfeift.
So perhaps Mexico will turn the game around.
J.W. Hamner
@Violet:
Yeah, it’s not like they’re scoring goals every other minute… they can take 30 seconds to call upstairs and make sure they weren’t offside or see if the ball crossed the plane. Somebody mentioned this in another thread, but you could give each coach only 1 or 2 challenges a game… and maybe just limit it to goal/no goal calls. But maybe FIFA likes the controversy bad calls create.
Mike E
Question for Randinho — historically, how does the officiating (or lack of) in this WC compare generally to previous editions? Does any WC stand out as being particularly egregious — is the occasional blunder (’66 phantom goal) or head scratcher (Hand of God) just regular occurrences and, as such, unavoidable?
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
Oh, what next? You gonna tell a christian to knock off the Christ love? The man is El D10s!
Violet
@valdivia:
Sorry. You can imagine how well this goes over with my English family members. Hand of God and all that.
4jkb4ia
If all this holds up, the African soccer federations who do not want to hire former players to coach can learn from this experience. None of these African countries having Lionel Messi is irrelevant.
Corner Stone
C’mon the Texas of South America! You can header better than that!
cmorenc
OUTRAGEOUSLY bad job by the Assistant Referee, missing that the attacker who finished the goal was at least two yards offside right in front of goal. It’s not even the sort of helter-skelter situation where, in a cloud of players it’s hard to track who was where when. The offside player was cherry-picking obvious offside. I can think of NO offside doctrine whatever of anything that happened during the sequence that could possibly have timely put him back onside, such as the ball came off a deliberate play by a Mexican player, rather than an uncontrolled deflection.
TERRIBLE refereeing job by the AR, even by the standards of a humble recreational-level game, too bad because the center referee in this game is otherwise doing a splendid job keeping this difficult game under control. And it is the whole referee crew as a group that will get no more games this WC because of it, not just this AR, the way these things work.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
sorry I know I am going to get flamed but I just can’t.stand.him
ETA–love for Messi or El Kun sure. But he will get the credit instead of the rightful ones, the players. He is making it all about himself. It shouldn’t be about him.
@Violet: oh you’re forgiven. I just have had enough of the Maradona mythical build up.
Spike Nesmith
@Mike E:
I can answer that. It’s like anything else contentious; it doesn’t happen any more or less than it used to, it’s just that reactions to it are magnified by the internet. This is the first World Cup with Twitter and Facebook in full force, so there’s much more chatter than there used to be.
ColeDBiers
get it together and header better
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
Better yet, get rid of the ridiculous offside rule, which as written is bound to be improperly enforced a good percentage of the time even by good officials. If you absolutely have to have an offside rule design it more like hockey’s. That would open up the game a bit and hopefully do away with the idiotic looking Riverdance we so frequently see.
Violet
@valdivia:
I get that. He’s a love or hate type character.
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
I don’t mean this to sound as insulting as you may take it, but have you been watching Maradona long? You can see his influence all over the team, but for the better. They’re pushing forward at speed, and it’s working for them – exactly how Maradona used to play before he got to be a fat and coked up. That’s how a good manager should be – they’re following the leader, and it’s paid off for them.
….eventually.
Mike E
@Spike Nesmith: Thanks, I think so too. Just looking for the fix, you know, the Chicago crowd and Obama’s Kenya connection and all. Also.
Spike Nesmith
Halftime, and Byrd is hospitalised in “serious condition” – just FYI.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Robert Byrd? The Senator? Hoo boy.
ColeDBiers
I like the idea of some sort of challenge system, like in American football.
The disallowed goal against England just before the half this morning is a good example of where a challenge would work. That ball bounced inside the goal line by at least a foot.
Offsides is a little trickier, but FIFA does say that the attacker should get the benefit of the doubt.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
not insulting at all. I get what you are saying but I still cannot stand him. Also too–did Bielsa get all the credit way back when Maradona played for the way he and the team played and all the wins?
ETA: actually their loses.
Spike Nesmith
@Mike E:
LOL! Yes. ♫ Someday we’ll find it; the Kenya connection, the birthers, teabaggers and meee. ♫
Bad officiating has been part of the game since it began. That’s why there are so many referee needing glasses-themed songs on the terraces. The only way around it is to make sure you play a better game of football. Most of the bad offside calls are down to players not watching where they’re standing, and a good percentage were on their way to being offside anyway.
Calouste
@Mike E:
I don’t think it is much worse than other World Cups, it’s just that the TV technology keeps improving and mistaked are much more exposed.
Having said that, why do they bother having linesmen in this match? First one misses someone being about 2 meters offside, than the other one misses a blatant bit of shoving right in front of his nose.
Alex S.
@Spike Nesmith:
I have a very bad feeling about this.
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
No, mostly because Maradona was such a unique player and was the catalyst for most of the wins. Who could doubt Pele’s skill and name any of his managers? Football is a team sport, but sometimes it takes a standout to get results.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
Yep, MSNBC says: ” Sen. Robert Byrd, the longest-serving member of Congress, is “seriously ill” and has been hospitalized, a spokesman for the West Virginia lawmaker said Sunday.
In a statement, Byrd spokesman Jesse Jacobs said the senator was initially admitted to a Washington-area hospital late last week for what doctors thought was heat-related illness.
“However, upon further examination by his doctors, other conditions have developed which has resulted in his condition being described as ‘serious,”‘ Jacobs said”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37959947/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
ColeDBiers
My kids have been watching all the games and, especially my daughter, getting really into them.
However, at the moment, all they are doing is rewinding the dvr and watching the second goalscorer bang his head into the camera over and over and laughing their butts off…
Irritable Liberal
Put me in the dislike Maradonna camp. Hand of God and he and the entire team were a fouling,whining disgrace in 1990 and then in 1994 he gets booted from the competition for illegal drugs. He is a character though.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Back when it began TV didn’t even exist. And for a long time the technology didn’t exist that would make instant replays really help. But things move on and now the technology exists that could help settle questionable calls. So why not use it?
As one of the commentators pointed out after the England game, it’s not like FIFA doesn’t use any new technology. The refs have radios and communicate with (and I didn’t catch this part) someone else or each other. And that technology didn’t exist back when the game was invented, so obviously FIFA isn’t against all technology. They just cherry-pick.
TR
@ColeDBiers:
Heh. Even my wife asked me to replay that one.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
so on this we agree right? and we can agree too that someone like Messi who is an incredible player should be the focus because he has an incredible style. what really bothers me is that instead all we get is Maradona as if he is the one who is on the pitch. simple point for me. for once in his life Maradona could be a little self effacing and let the kids take center stage.
Corner Stone
Los liiiiiinks!!
Violet
@Corner Stone:
I love that commercial.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
What they’re worried about is that it’s going to slow the game down. Remember how Ghana spent the last half hour of the game running the clock down? Imagine that, but contesting every play and demanding replays.
Personally, I’d like to see some technology put into it, but what they need to do is find a compromise where only an off-pitch assistant has access to replays, or is able to communicate that there needs to be a review. If they put any power into the hands of teams to contest a play, it will only lead to abuse.
The biggest issue is Fifa. They have nothing to gain by doing this because, as I said earlier, they don’t answer to anyone. People aren’t going to stop going to international games because of occasional bad calls.
cmorenc
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
This is utter soccer-ignorant nonsense. The offside rule is not a particularly difficult rule for assistant referees to properly determine and enforce, and it plays an essential role in the game to keep it from simply being 70 yard ping-pong and cherry-picking on a field of the sort of large dimensions soccer is played on.
Don’t generalize from a horrendously, astoundingly bad (especially at this level) call from an AR who should turn in his FIFA badge after today’s performance that the rule itself needs scrapping. As to the disallowed US goal v Algeria on a call, it’s true that the AR disregarded a fundamental offside principle that ANY doubt goes to the attacker.
Mike E
@valdivia: Tho’ John Harkes just called him a genius for deflecting scrutiny away from his players…
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
Oh sure, we’re not in disagreement, but you have to understand what a huge figure Maradona is and how important he is to the game. It’s not too much different than how people perceive Walter Smith or Alex Ferguson as celebrity managers, but with the added emotional twist of Maradona being a big national hero *before* management.
ColeDBiers
bang!
Corner Stone
Go the Texas of South America!
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
They could start slow by giving each side one or two challenges, or, as you said, only allow the refs to call for a challenge using an off-pitch ref, and it’s only allowed when a goal is involved.
Doesn’t the NFL allow challenges but limit it to a certain number per game? I think that would help keep it under control. Just like the substitution rule in soccer, there would be a strategy about when to use it (use all them up too soon and you’re left unable to challenge if need be later in the game), and it wouldn’t really slow things down all that much. The majority of the game would still be determined by the refs.
Edit: Wow. As I pressed submit, that goal happened. Impressive.
Mike E
Whoa, lightning
IM
Now that was a nice shot.
valdivia
ok now I am definitely just hoping Germany routs Argentina in the next round.
ColeDBiers
nice shot.
put that in your vuvuzela and smoke it
Mark S.
Wow! What a goal!
Corner Stone
@Violet: Yo tengo Bing.
Bing?
Bing.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
I get that. I just dislike Maradona and think the mythical status while deserved at some point *in the game* became a crutch for really assholish behaviour.
And yeah, that was a really really beautiful gol. Tevez placed a beauty there.
Violet
@valdivia:
The commentators just pointed out that he seems to have a really great relationship with his players. It seems like it, from how much they celebrate with him after each goal.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
It might work, but once the World Cup is over, what we’ll probably see is just a return to normal. Fans don’t want the game messed about with, particularly since 50% of the crowd of a game with bad refereeing are quite happy with the results.
jeffreyw
@Ed Marshall: Thanks for the link. Brutal indeed.
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
I think what you meant to say was “El D10s Maradona coached Tevez to a great goal.” ;D
Mike E
Okay Anglophiles–6s and 7s, WTF does it mean?
ETA is this Cockney rhyme, like raspberry?
valdivia
@Violet:
ok this will be my last I hate Maradona post. I know all the reasons people love him and that his job as manager while controversial has been vindicated in the play in SA. But I still loathe the man and I know it is partly an irrational thing. I half feel like hhis about it but not really. :)
Violet
@Mike E:
A state of confusion, disarray.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
touche. that made me laugh.
Spike Nesmith
@Mike E:
To be “at sixes and sevens” is like being confused.
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
Don’t fret. I feel the same about Beckham. This site doesn’t have enough bandwidth to cope with how much I loathe and detest that prick.
Violet
@valdivia:
No need to stop the Maradona hate on my account. He’s a seriously controversial character and seems to be one of those love or hate types.
KG
They could just put a ref behind each goal to watch the goal line. Seems like that would very easily deal with the missed goals issue. Probably could help on off sides calls too.
Spike Nesmith
@KG:
Like ball boys at Wimbledon! That’s what the linesmen are supposed to do, they’re supposed to move with the ball down the line. To err, as the old saying goes, is human.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
@Violet:
I lived with an argentinian for a few years and I had to swallow hard because of his Maradona love. Now I get to put it all over the web :)
KG
@Spike Nesmith: The line judges do have a lot going on so having someone behind the goal doesn’t seem like an entirely unrealistic solution. They apparently use them in the Europa League (according to a quick google search)
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
it’s frightening, isn’t it? There are religious shrines to him in Argentina. It’s intense. I bet he’ll get a huge state funeral when he goes. There will be a huge number of people who will want to carry the coffin.
The real tragedy is that it’s a job for two people, max.
valdivia
ok some dignity now. at least they didn’t lose 3-0
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
My longtime Manchester United season-ticket holding friends and family members still don’t like Beckham.
Ooh..nice goal by Hernandez!
Mike E
A blast! Goalie had no chance.
Alex S.
I think Maradona is just trying to create a good mood for his team and let his players do what they like. I don’t see a system in their attacks and their defense allows Mexico a lot of chances. Yet, I also have no doubt that Argentina could score one or two more goals at will. Maybe a rock-solid team like Italy (when they’re good) would crush Argentina. Classic Germany, too…but not the Germany of today.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
I have a feeling that Rooney might be on their shit-list too, when the team gets home.
Did you hear that England have a new coach already? …it’s taking them to the airport tomorrow.
The good news is that the team will be flying first class. The bad news is that the in-flight movie is “Out Of Africa”.
and other jokes!
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
So so right. The bandwidth we would need to talk about the civil religion that is the adoration of certain public figures in Argentina is not in existence. Just think Peron and Evita and I guess Maradonna comes in third after them. Aside from all Argentinians being peronistas, they’re all maradonistas. I wonder what body part they will steal from his coffin. The hand of god?
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
HA!!
I wonder if Maradona has as many football boots as Eva Peron had shoes?
Mike E
@Spike Nesmith: At least Beckham has those Geico gekko commercials to fall back on!
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Lolz. The jokes write themselves. I’m avoiding talking to any English family members for the next few days. Email might barely be safe enough to try.
@valdivia:
Of course it’ll be the hand of God.
Spike Nesmith
@Mike E:
LMAO!! Oh god, it is him, isn’t it??? That’s frightening!
What’s really sad is that he might be a useful media pundit, if he could keep himself off of magazine covers and red carpets for fifteen seconds.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
I just heard that they are indeed expecting a heroes welcome when their plane touches down tomorrow.
….their flight lands at Glasgow Airport.
valdivia
@Mike E:
wait. what? that is beckham?????
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Ha!
Mexico isn’t giving this up without a fight.
Mike E
@valdivia: What–you don’t recognize him???
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
hey can we just keep him on underwear ads? ;) (I know this is the kind of thing you guys hate about us girls and futbol)
@Violet:
yep. it will be classic when they steal it.
@Mike E:
truly not. I saw him in an interview and his voice sounded so pitchy. Is it snark or is it really him?
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
Good! they’ve finally stepped up their game, one more for them would be nice.
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
Yes. Yes it is.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
That last attempt was pathetic. Just kicked the ball away for no reason. Stupid.
Corner Stone
@valdivia:
Personally I love him in those ads. He’s fucking hot.
Mike E
@valdivia:
Okay, you caught me! Posh would never let him do it.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
but Teh Google says it is someone named Jake Wood. :)
ETA: @Mike E: knew it could not be him. I would have actually thought he was cooler if it was him.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
I feel like James Belushi in that “Bobby Knight: High School Chess Coach” sketch on SNL. “oh, nice move! Why don’t you just GIVE him the king? JUST *GIVE* IT TO HIM??”
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
It is, but it sounds almost exactly like Beckham.
Violet
@valdivia:
Oooh, yes please! He can just sit there and be quiet and look pretty. Good enough for me.
Spike Nesmith
Byrd update from my friend Dusty: “Sen. Robert Byrd, 92, is seriously ill in the hospital. He was a racist years before Glenn Beck made it cool. (Zing!)”
=D
Cacti
That’s not grey hair in Maradona’s beard.
*rimshot*
Corner Stone
Do not deny the Texas of South America! You bastard!
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia @Violet
This is “Twilight” all over again. It’s supposedly all cute when women talk like this, but as soon as men do it over women, it’s all Uncle Creepy.
valdivia
@Violet:
:) works for me.
Corner Stone
The Texas of South America will crush the Rhinelanders!
Spike Nesmith
YES! on to Germany v Argentina, which is going to be a corker.
Did I see right? Is Donny Deutsch one of the referees?
Cacti
Maradona hated George W. Bush.
But I hear he was quite a fan of Pablo Escobar!
*rimshot*
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
I have no problem with that. But how is this like Twilight? Did I miss a thread fight or something?
Violet
Well done Argentina. I really love watching them play. They definitely won today.
Spike Nesmith
Seattle Vs Philly at 5pm on ESPN 2! First game in Philly’s very nice new stadium, I think.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Twilight? Huh? Are you talking about all the fangirling over the leads in the movie?
Argentina-Germany is going to be one helluva match.
Corner Stone
If someone can explain the AT&T warriors ad to me I’d appreciate it.
Cacti
Anyway, as for the game. Yeah, the missed offsides was a bad call, but it’s not really fair to blame the outcome of the game on that.
Mexico had 3 good chances early on that they failed to put in the net. Any of those could have changed the complexion of the match.
Corner Stone
@Violet: I think he’s saying young fit boys with their shirts off are hawt, but young-ish attractive females are verbotten.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
cats
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
Yes, specifically the difference in ‘women making sexist remarks about men = acceptable’ but ‘men making sexist remarks about women = offensive’.
Can you imagine if Argentina win the world cup? People will be bringing their sick kids to Maradona to have him lay hands on them.
Cacti
@valdivia:
I think its the issue of, women enjoying pics of attractive young men in their skivvies = = okay
Men enjoying pics of attractive young women in theirs = = sexist, lecherous, etc.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@cmorenc:
This is self-refuting nonsense, by the mere fact that the call has been botched so many times already in this tournament. You aren’t seriously asking us to believe that standing thirty to fifty yards away from a line of a dozen or more players dancing back and forth right before a free kick, then determining that one of them was microscopically ahead or behind another of them at the precise moment a kick was made, is easy, are you? The rule is stupid and hard to enforce, and it’s been exacerbated by the flagrantly inconsistent way the offside freeze frame has been presented to us on television (don’t get me started on that). As someone who remembers the North American Soccer League, their offside rule was (slightly) superior.
Then institute something like hockey’s offside rule, but for god’s sake get rid of that idiotic Riverdance they so frequently do and then maybe it’ll be taken more seriously by Americans who have no patience for the ceaseless flops and feints and impossible to enforce rules.
Generalize? All the pundits and blog commenters have been doing for the last two weeks is bitch about offside calls. Do you think FIFA is just hiring guys off the street? Do you think because you sit there on your fat ass watching a half dozen replays in high definition you have some unique insight?
Rather than waste time searching for non-existent superrefs, or make an already dilatory sport even more so by instituting instant replay, the sensible thing to do would be to have rules that are simple and easy to enforce. Doing so might even — gasp — reduce the incessant bitching about World Cup officiating. But fear not, my suggestion has about a zero chance of ever happening, and bitching about the refs will remain more popular in the U.S. than the sport itself.
Spike Nesmith
@Cacti:
Exactly. A bad call is one thing, but if you’re playing better than the opposition and you have more goals, it shouldn’t matter. ESPN’s theory that England’s forbidden goal somehow robbed them of the match was laughable at best, and offensive at worst.
Violet
@Corner Stone:
Isn’t the ad aiming for the Mexican supporters? It compares the legendary toughness of Aztec warriors to current futbol players and then to AT&T phone users. See, if you buy an AT&T phone, you’re an Aztec warrior and will play futbol just as well as professional players! Or something.
@Spike Nesmith:
Dangerous topic to get into. The double standard has a lot to do with historic cultural roles, sexual mores, power, etc.
Spike Nesmith
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
You’re assuming that the larger body of fans *want* it changed. There’s pissing and moaning about it now because it’s in the immediate zeitgeist, but on the whole the real fans of the game just say “oh well” when a call is bad and move on, just as they have done for centuries.
Would Fifa accepting better technology help make games fairer in certain circumstances? Absolutely. Will they do it? No. Does it matter in the long term? No. Will football still be the most popular game in the world if nothing changes? Yes.
Corner Stone
@Violet: Mmmm, power over the sexual mores of historic cultural roles…{Homer and donuts sounds}
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
Sure it does, but that doesn’t make role reversal right when the original statements were wrong to begin with.
Cacti
Because after all, an international sport should first and foremost concern itself with accomodating American tastes.
Spike Nesmith
@Cacti:
You, sir (or madam), have just won the world cup of excellent comments.
Cacti
@Spike Nesmith:
Hear, hear.
Adults oogling teenagers is either bad, or it isn’t.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
True enough, but I will never be one who thinks it’s wrong to appreciate beauty. It’s all in how it’s done. And the difference between what is acceptable and what is not can vary from person to person, culture to culture.
Bill Murray
1. FIFA has experimented with several new technologies and ways of officiating the game, but has generally come to the conclusion that they aren’t worth the trouble and expense.
2. Personally, I could see something like the red light in hockey for a goal (which IIRC correctly isn’t perfect either), but otherwise I think any sort of replay would be pointless and would likely ruin my enjoyment of the game. But then most referee mistakes don’t bother me, and I think replay has made refereeing worse in American football.
3. Also, because most of the announcers don’t really know how refereeing is supposed to be done, they have a tendency to try to make mountains out of molehills.
4. Soccer is the most popular game in the world, messing with that for what I would say are illusory gains seems pretty short sighted
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Spike Nesmith:
No, I pretty clearly presented it as my opinion and having no chance of being widely adopted.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
But be honest, there’s a big difference between chapter one of “The Picture Of Dorian Gray” and “can we just keep him on underwear ads?”
Bill Murray
The Argentinian players at the WC probably do love Maradona since he left behind most of the players that wouldn’t kiss his ass. Well except maybe Samuel and DiMichelis who weren’t called on much in qualifying — much to the detriment of their qualification chances
Violet
@Cacti:
But are any of these soccer players that we’ve been watching young enough to be considered underage? I know they’re kind of young, but the youngest age I’ve heard the announcers say is 20, I think. Aren’t even the Twilight guys officially adults? (Sorry, I really don’t know, as I don’t keep up with Twilight stuff.)
Commenting on underage girls or boys by adults is creepy, imho.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Cacti:
If these organizations want maximum impact for their investment, yes.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Okay, now you’ve lost me.
Spike Nesmith
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
I don’t understand. Why even make the comment then?
Cacti
@Violet:
Most WC players are adults, yes.
As far as Twilight goes, Taylor Lautner (werewolf boy) was 16/17 when the first and second movies were shot.
Hearing adult women, old enough to be his parent make lusty comments about him was uber-creepy.
Spike Nesmith
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
You’re kidding, right?
Look, nobody would be more happy than I if America would embrace the game, but the assumption that somehow validation and profit only comes from that is jaw-droppingly naive.
sluggahjells
Randinho, by the way, i disagree with a lot of your US analysis yesterday.
Altidore played well in this tournament, considering he had a different strike partner the last three games, and was unlucky yesterday. He created chances.
pseudonymous in nc
And it doesn’t seem to have many takers among England fans, who see it as an indictment of a domestic league and association that has increasingly sucked dry the international squad in exchange for cashola, in contrast to the German priorities.
I’m annoyed at the first goal in Arg/Mex, which came at a point where the Argentinian keeper had shown a few frailties of his own — and it was striking that the touchline discussion was basically a double-check that they had to ignore the replay. The better team got through, and it sets up a cracker in the quarter-finals, but that decision changed the complexion of the match more obviously than the ghost goal in Ger/Eng.
Violet
@Cacti:
If he’s that young, then yeah, those sorts of comments are creepy. I don’t support drooling over underage people, male or female.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
Well, Twilight might not be a great example, but it was the first one to hand.
Let’s put it this way. Is it not creepy and inappropriate for men to fall over themselves and drench their shirts in drool, Tex Avery Wolf-style, at.. say… the Victoria’s Secret catalogue? Or even any hint of cleavage or skin on any woman? Of course it is. That’s not an expression of the appreciation of beauty, it’s just… well, sort of gross.
My point is that, despite what our current society infers, it’s not any less creepy or inappropriate (or offensive) when women do it over men in their underwear.
valdivia
@Cacti:
totally agree with that. Then again, the women who read the books are already engaging in fantasies in their heads with boys that are 17. The movie just gives them the opportunity to do it with an actor that is real and happens to be that age. I agree it is totally creepy.
Violet
@pseudonymous in nc:
Yeah, the England fans know that the better team won. You never know, though, how better ref decisions about the goals in both the games today would have changed the energy and momentum on the pitch. That kind of thing is impossible to know. It was pretty clear that Mexico lost their cool after the first Argentine goal.
Would England have stepped up their play if they’d been allowed that goal? Would Mexico have been calmer and played better football? It’s a moot point now, but bad reffing shouldn’t be the reason for momentum shift as often as it seems to be happening in this World Cup.
Cacti
@Violet:
I don’t either.
But the entertainment industry makes truckloads of $$$$ marketing “jail bait” to the masses, and it’s not going to change.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
that was my comment and I totally own up to the objectification. and if it is wrong to do it to women (keep her in underwear ads) then it should be wrong to do it to men. so I know I can’t be offended when men make those sort of comments cause I do the same thing.
Spike Nesmith
@pseudonymous in nc:
I’ve not had a chance to review the UK media coverage yet, but from what people are telling me, the consensus seems to be that the media are saying England just weren’t good enough, rather than that there were shenanigans afoot. Which makes a pleasant change from the victim mentality and “b-b-b-but 1966” that they usually rely on when the team are shite.
Of course, that may change when the redtops come out tomorrow morning.
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
Good.
…cooorrr! Jennifer Love Hewitt, eh?? Fwaar! She’d get it right good and proper! Get ’em off, love!!!
;D
Bill Murray
@Violet: There was at least 1 18 year old playing at the World Cup — Christian Eriksen of Denmark. There could have been more, but Eriksen is one I remember getting some playing time
Spike Nesmith
@Violet @pseudonymous in nc
My point with those theories has always been that if it takes your team scoring a goal to change your momentum, it’s a problem with the players and the manager, not the game or the officials.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
ha! well I never suggested he take everything off though so you are going a step further there ;)
sincerely though I actually think he looks better in all his clothes. his ads for suits are way hotter than anything skimpy. but that is just me. YMMV.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Well, that depends. It’s not necessarily creepy and inappropriate for men to drool over the Victoria’s Secret catalog in the privacy of their own homes. It’s definitely inappropriate to try to grope and shout rude things about what they’d like to do to the models, or any women, if they see them in public. And then there’s a gray area inbetween. It’s that gray area that’s the problem.
The same goes for women talking about men. And probably lesbians talking about women, and gay men talking about other men.
Humans are se xual creatures. Trying to remove that from all our interactions isn’t going to work. I’ll be the first to admit that while I enjoy the World Cup matches for their excitement and skill, I also don’t mind watching the young, attractive, very fit men run around the pitch. And those close-up, super-slo-mo shots of those guys don’t go to waste from an appreciation of physical beauty standpoint. Not with me, anyway.
As for Beckham, he’s always sold himself not just as a good football player, but as a very attractive man. He’s extremely conscious of his appearance and makes great efforts with it. Acknowledging that he’s attractive to look at is, in some ways, just a recognition of him achieving his own goals in that regard.
valdivia
@Violet:
seconding this.
Also. Too. And to annoy Spike who loathes Bekcham as much as I loathe Maradona: I actually noticed the day England played the US that he was wearing that grey suit to great effect. I had no idea why he was on the bench but was surprised to see how elegant he looked.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Yeah, see, that’s the difference. Valdivia commented that he looked good in his underwear. You’re saying you want to do things to Jennifer Love Hewitt. There’s a big difference.
Violet
@valdivia:
Heh. Beckham was wearing that gray suit very well. They’ve shown a lot of Beckham during the England matches. I suspect that’s not just due to his prowess on the football pitch. :P
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Spike Nesmith:
Um……………..because this is the comment section on a blog?
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
But my original point about Dorian Gray was that there’s a big difference between acknowledging that someone looks nice versus lecherous remarks. It’s the difference between “nice bra” and “nice tits”.
valdivia
@Violet:
yeah I am sure his futbol is why we see full body shots of him on all the games.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
So we’re in agreement? It was the Beckham comment that started it all, and valdivia just asked if we could keep him in the underwear ads. Isn’t that the male equivalent of “nice bra”? Or “you look good in that bra”? As opposed to, “I want to see what’s underneath”?
I’m in agreement with valdivia, I’d rather see Beckham in a suit ad.
Spike Nesmith
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
/facepalm
here’s how our conversation went:
You: “I think these changes should be made to the game”
Me: “People don’t want those changes to be made”
You: “the changes would never be made”
Me: “then why make the comment in the first place?”
You: “because it’s the comments section”
The box that says “comments” isn’t a direction. It’s really more of a suggestion, if you happen to have something worthwhile to contribute to an ongoing conversation. It’s not mandatory.
Spike Nesmith
@Violet:
I think we’re probably in agreement in theory, but I feel that either you guys aren’t understanding what my core issue is with casual sexual objectification, or I’m not doing a good enough job of explaining myself.
Either way, it’s no biggie. =)
cmorenc
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
[who’s been ranting about what he unshakably believes are badly needed changes to the offside rule, while others would disagree]
Bruce:
I too have a list of urgently needed tweaks to the rules as well as badly needed changes to the enforcement of some rules that per se are sound as they are, but are poorly administered. But I have a suspicion that were either of us to attempt to submit these to FIFA/IFAB/or even USSF, with however respectful, polite, and knowledgeably articulate, concise explanation, it would wind up in the round file without so much as a terse “thank you for your submission” brush-off reply by email (with an “automated response: do not reply to this email” notation in the header).
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Spike Nesmith:
Dude, I responded to snide with snide.
Why don’t we cut the horseshit cherry-picked comments which you aren’t interpreting correctly anyway and get down to the point. Do you like the offside rule as currently written? Do you think, as the other commenter does, that it’s easy to enforce? Do you think it could conceivably be better? Do you think a better offside rule could conceivably make the game better and more appealing to Americans? Whatever your opinion on these matters is perfectly fine with me, but if you’re going to respond to what I say please respond substantively to what I actually say.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
I thought your point was that all objectification was bad. No?
And I did a mea culpa for starting it with Beckham and his underwear ads and proposed that since I say that kind of thing about men, I cannot get angry when men say the same thing about Victoria Lima or whoever is on the VS catalogue. I guess part of your point too is that these sort of comments inevitably lead to the I want to see her without anything on and do thing to her category pretty quickly.
All that said as Violet said I think Beckham pretty much objectified himself a long time ago.
Spike Nesmith
“dude”, cool it. Go look at kittens or something.
Unless there’s some unwritten rule about comments section tenure that I’m blissfully unaware of, I don’t owe you any more answers than you owe me. Eat a fruit cup, take a deep breath, calm down, and tone down the keyboard warrior authoritarian act. THEN I *might* be interested in a dialogue.
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
If I understand what you’re saying, you’re pointing out the slippery slope danger of casual objectification. And also that if it’s wrong on one level, it’s wrong on any level. We should be appreciating people for their qualities, not objectifying them for their looks, right?
But humans are complex creatures and we work on multiple levels. If s ex didn’t sell, it wouldn’t be used. It does, so it is. I’m just as liable to fall for it as anyone, although I hope I recognize that side of myself most of the time and try not to act on it inappropriately and step over any lines.
I appreciate Beckham on multiple levels. He was a very good football player and I respect his skill. He’s also good at marketing himself and building a career in fashion or whatever outside of his skill on the pitch. And he’s a good looking man. It’s all wrapped up in any appreciation I might have for him. If he sucked as a footballer, he never would have had a fashion career, and I probably wouldn’t be aware of him in the slightest to know what he looked like.
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia: @Violet
It doesn’t really matter. I’ve had a great time here today, though. It’s made time at work fly by. =)
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@cmorenc:
Um, yeah. That’s why it’s in the Balloon Juice comment section. That’s what the Balloon Juice comment section is for, you know. Comments. Explain it to Spike, who doesn’t quite seem to comprehend.
Though the chances are extremely low, it’s possible that if an idea catches on it will be adopted by some soccer regulating body somewhere. Hell, the NASL thought the rule needed changing. But I have no particular hopes for the offside rule. I guess I have to satisfy myself with making comments in, you know, comment sections.
valdivia
@Spike Nesmith:
well it was really fun “sparring” with you. hope to see you here again for the Chile Brazil game. :)
Spike Nesmith
@valdivia:
Oh, i don’t see it as sparring. Just talkin’. =D
I’ll be here, unless Bruce The Boss has me banned. ;)
Violet
@Spike Nesmith:
Yeah, shall we discuss the merits of Brazil’s beaches and the people who sunbathe upon them during Monday’s match? :P
Edit to change Friday to Monday. I have my days mixed up. I’m still sick. Apologies.
Robert Sneddon
When the World Cup was hosted by the US a few years back there were suggestions put forward to change the rules to “improve” the game such as making the goalmouths bigger so there would be more goals scored and playing the game in four 22-minute quarters rather than two 45-minute halves to allow more TV advertising breaks.
This did not happen.
valdivia
@Violet:
@Spike Nesmith:
game tomorrow is Chile Brazil
though I am cheering for Chile I am sure it will be a similar match to today with Argentina. Sigh.
sluggahjells
@Robert Sneddon:
Yup Robert, but that’s because those ideas were really ridiculous and just American wanting to change the world’s sport.
These changes requested now are clearly what everyone in the world wants.
Spike Nesmith
Good plan. it’s a date.
Goodnight, all!
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Spike Nesmith:
Sweet Jesus, you can’t even accurately reproduce your own words. What you actually said is, “You’re assuming that the larger body of fans want it changed.” I not only assumed no such thing, I assumed the opposite.
This, at least, is a reasonably accurate paraphrase.
Thanks for the input, John Cole. It’s your blog and you have final say, after all.
Do you like the offside rule as currently written? Do you think, as the other commenter does, that it’s easy to enforce? Do you think it could conceivably be better? Do you think a better offside rule could conceivably make the game better and more appealing to Americans?
But by all means, continue holding yourself up as an expert and fling around accusations of naivete, that’s obviously a more relevant contribution to the conversation than answering these questions.
sluggahjells
@valdivia:
And with Chile’s backline decimated by suspension, it sadly feels that way, especially with both Kaka and Robinho returning to their lineup.
Spike Nesmith
#1: you assume I was quoting our conversation rather than condensing and simplifying it for ease. wrong.
#2: again, you assume I owe you answers. wrong.
#3: you assume I want to engage in conversation with you. wrong.
#4: you appear to be one of these people who absolutely *have* to have the last word in a discussion, or they’ll simply explode. Be my guest. Play to whatever audience you believe is left and claim victory.
Leeds man
@Violet:
I suspect that’s not just due to his prowess on the football pitch
What George Best said about Beckham, and I can’t say I disagree;
He can’t kick with his left foot, he can’t tackle, he can’t head the ball and he doesn’t score many goals. Apart from that, he’s all right.
sluggahjells
@Leeds man:
Best still was very jealous of Beckam, and that’s sad how petty Best was considering how he was better than Beckham as a player, but Beckham was a better team guy that him, and lived a more balanced and controlled lifestyle.
And Beckham has shown in the last few years that have earned him a lot more respect, including his team in leading Real Madrid to the title in La Liga in 2007.
Randinho
@demkat620: Great, be sure to include that fact in the next baseball open thread.
Leeds man
@sluggahjells:
Maybe, but what I will remember him for is trying to avoid a tackle against Brazil in 2002, which immediately led to a Brazil goal. Unfair? I’m sure he’ll survive. I just think that the line between a great player and one who can sell tickets has become a bit blurry.
Randinho
@amorphous: Not to rag on Albany, but there are three things I remember comment wise about your city:
In an Article in The New Yorker about the trial in the Amadou Diallo shooting, Jeffery Toobin described Albany as a city with “the charm of Brasilia and the panache of Bayonne.”
On an episode of Just Shoot Me, the David Spade character was trying to reserve train tickets to Albany on the phone and said “Of course I want a roundtrip ticket. Have you been to Albany?”
On an episode of Law and Order, they were looking for a retired cop on a cold case and found out that he had retired to Albany. Lieutenant Van Buren: “Who retires to Albany?”
Randinho
@Mike E: I think it’s about typical. There are bad calls all the time, even some not spoken about much. One that was missed in 2002 was on a PK in the Sweden v Argentina game. Can’t remember who took the PK, but before the ball was touched, Hernan Crespo was already two yards into the area. The PK was saved, but Crespo buried the rebound. An indirect free kick should have been awarded to Sweden.
Randinho
@Violet: I think his behavior after they qualified was pretty awful.
Randinho
@Corner Stone: About five years ago I was on the 7 train coming home when I saw this gorgeous woman standing by herself on a train filled with passengers. She looked familiar to me, but I couldn’t figure out who it was until I realized the Dodgers were playing and it was Mia Hamm on her way to see her husband, Nomar Garciaparra play at Shea Stadium.
She was quite stunning.
Randinho
@Violet: My wife and I attend mass at a church in Manhattan that has the mass in Portuguese.
Adriana Lima, the Victoria’s Secret model used to go there. She’s quite stunning, but very down to earth and simpatica.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Spike Nesmith:
Do you like the offside rule as currently written? Do you think, as the other commenter does, that it’s easy to enforce? Do you think it could conceivably be better? Do you think a better offside rule could conceivably make the game better and more appealing to Americans?
Bill Murray
Do you like the offside rule as currently written? yes
Do you think, as the other commenter does, that it’s easy to enforce? generally yes, but of course there are exceptions relating to ball and last defender positioning
Do you think it could conceivably be better? conceivably, sure. One that doesn’t just substitute one set of faults for another, probably not.
Do you think a better offside rule could conceivably make the game better and more appealing to Americans? conceivably, sure. One that doesn’t just substitute Americans for fans lost inb other countries probably not.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Bill Murray:
I’d be for that too, but what rule change would cause fans around the globe to abandon the sport? For the sake of argument, suppose soccer had a rule similar to hockey’s, in that there is an attacking zone that you have to legally advance the ball into but once you’re there you can’t be offside? Would fans around the globe abandon the sport as a result?
Corner Stone
@Randinho: One time I was connecting to San Fran and in the Denver airport. I walked down the corridor and saw a stunning blond, with accoutrements that would catch any man’s eye.
Like a cad, I stared her down as I passed by her. Only at the last minute did I look up to see her husband giving me the death blow by eyeball. It was Ice-T.
Yep, I totally ogled his old lady in Denver and there was nothing he could do about it.
Corner Stone
@Randinho:
I’ve been face to face with Cindy Crawford, who is so much more amazing in real life it can not be believed. I don’t know what I’d do within arms reach of Adriana Lima.
Probably the same thing, smile a little and nod as I pass by.
That’s what I did with Hakeem Olajuwon one time in Neiman Marcus in the Houston Galleria. I nodded, he nodded, and we went about our business.
Never been much of a starfucker, but I could awesomely make an exception for Ms. Lima. Or whatever her name is now that she’s married.
Randinho
@Corner Stone: One time I sat with her on my left and my wife on my right. When everyone says The Lords Prayer, we hold hands. I was standing there with Adriana Lima’s right hand in my left hand and my wife’s left hand in my right hand. I thought that was pretty cool.
Mart
Argentina bitches!
(Somebody has to stick up for them.)
Bill Murray
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): I don’t know. But most fans don’t really like major changes to the game for no particularly good reason, and I don’t think the current offside rule is particularly poorly designed or officiated, and adopting a completely different concept from a minor sport is a major change that would separate the game from its past. Sure there are some missed calls, but that happens with every rule. The six most important words respecting the laws of soccer are, “in the opinion of the referee”
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Bill Murray:
I agree. By the way, the idea of modifying or even eliminating the offside rule is not completely out of left field, you can find plenty of respectable people advocating for it on the internet, not just cranks. I think sheer inertia will keep the rule in place, though.
What disturbed me in this thread was not disagreement with my opinion, but the bizarre notion that it shouldn’t even have been expressed in the first place. It’s not like I was promoting NAMBLA or something, and it’s not like I’m the only one in the world who doesn’t like the rule, though mine is decidedly a minority position.