Andrew Olmsted has a decent summary of what, roughly, seems to be the right approach to this whole affair:
As I’ve already noted, Senator Durbin could have chosen better comparisons in describing alleged acts at Guantanamo Bay. But the fact he chose unwisely doesn’t wipe out the issue of what to do about the allegations. No, our Soldiers aren’t Nazis or Communists or even close to it. But I believe we can all agree that we’re striving for a significantly higher standard of behavior than just being better than our enemy, and I believe that we do, in fact, generally hold ourselves up to a markedly better standard. There remain some questions on the margin that I think we need to do a better job of answering. And those are the kinds of questions Congress gets paid to answer…
I don’t know where the line should be drawn for interrogation. I think that playing Christina Aguilera is well on the safe side of the line and that letting people sit in their own wastes is on the wrong side of the line, but that still leaves plenty of gray area. We pay Congress to serve as our representatives in this type of argument; it is incumbent on them to sit down and actually start asking the hard question: how far are we prepared to go to get information out of captured enemy combatants? The discussion probably should take place behind closed doors, since it’s unwise to tell the enemy precisely where the line is, but the line does need to be drawn and enforced. And if the people we have in Congress now are incapable of acting like adults and holding such a discussion, then it’s time we tossed them out on their ear and try again.
It really isn’t an unreasonable request. And can we please stop playing the damned political games:
If Democrats want to taken seriously as other than a desperate group of out-of-power ideologues willing to trash everything and everyone in an attempt to get some traction with the public that has evaluated their collective fitness for leadership in time of war and ejected them from power, they will begin by defending our defenders, articulating the necessity of long term imprisonment for would be terrorists and the interrogation of those terrorists, drop the absurd and dangerous demand for “due process” for unlawful combatants, and help shoulder the burden of explaining to the world that America is the most humane of all jailers, and rigorous in its prosecution of its representatives who violate the rules of detention…
I believe the DoD, and I believe that the conditions at Gitmo are humane. Those like Durbin and Pelosi who do not have decided to believe the critics and sometimes the enemies of the United States. I think this choice will and should be a huge factor in future elections.
I said from the moment I heard Durbin’s remarks that it was a dumb thing to say, but as Andrew points out, Durbin’s larger point is a reasonable and responsible position. Supporting the troops means making sure we have them doing the right thing, not just defending everything they do. We should be discussing these interrogation techniques. Are they necessary. Are they useful? Do they do more damage than good? does it change the character of the nation if we allow such behavior?
It is all well and good that Hugh thinks everything is hunky dory and nothing needs to be discussed. He is free to keep on trying to frame this debate as a political narrative (and I do recognize there are some out there on the left who want nothing more than to club this administration at every opportunity), but to try to claim that the only positions on this are rigid support of the status quo or hating America, the military, and the Bush administration is unacceptable and should be ignored. Just because some people choose to view the debate this way and just because they happen to be loud and drape their obstinate positions in the flag does not mean they are right and it does not mean we should let them get away with it.
shark
but to try to claim that the only positions on this are rigid support of the status quo or hating America, the military, and the Bush administration is unacceptable and should be ignored
Yeah! You forget the 3rd option- whining self-flogging wusses wallowing in the guilt of seeing something unpleasant who want to try to walk the middle line so they can be luvved by those on the left who hate them….
Rick
Ha! Or maybe “hed.”
Cordially…
John S
Sorry, Shark, that reference went over my head, and probably some others. Care to name an example?
John Cole
LOL @ shark.
Stormy70
According to Rasmussen (this polling outfit is one I trust), 70% of the country is fine with Gitmo. So good luck on getting an actual debate in Congress, who are skittish of pissing off that many constituents. Link is on Drudge. Still not sure if I post links right or not.
John Cole
It is 52%, I believe. And being in favor of Gitmo is not the same thing as being in favor of doing bad things at Gitmo.
Stormy70
John – here is the link, but I don’t know how you turn it into a click on link.
http://rasmussenreports.com/2005/Gitmo.htm
Rick
Rasmussen poll.
Stormy70
Rick – how do you do that?
Rick
Stormy,
Well I wrote you email answering your italicizing question. This just follows.
I can’t “show” you here, because a demonstration turns into the real thing; that is, the command stuff stays hidden.
There are plenty of “html commands” hits on Google for a start.
Cordially…
Stormy70
Rick – that is not my full email address. I put my correct one below.
Stormy70
Rick – I never got your other email, did it bounce back to you?
Rick
Stormy,
No, odd thing. Just forwarded the old with additional stuff to your updated addy.
Cordially…
Stormy70
Rick – I sent you an email as well.
Mike S
The poll might mean something if people actually know what was going on. And if people got the whole story, as opposed to only hearing about loud music ther would probably be a different reaction.
jdm
Some people do know, Mike S. – and we still don’t care.
Mike S
Good to know idm. It’s always helpful to know who doesn’t care about upholding the ideals of this country.
jdm
Mike S., it may well be that you are, in fact, a concerned citizen – like John C. The problem for me, however, it that those who are actually concerned and those who really don’t care about anything except except partisan (ie, Bush) bashing use virtually the same language.
I trust John C because he acknowledges that this is an ugly problem that has more than one dimension. I have not yet seen that you acknowledge this; but if you insist, I’ll refrain from the snark in the future.
But spare me the feeble attempt at inflicting some sort of guilt-trip because I don’t “care about upholding the ideals of this country” (whatever that means in this situation).
Most of the world does not care either – except for those Euro-weenies spawned on a steady diet of anti-American crap for 40 years and those 12th century throwbacks who feel threatened by American women who dress “normal”, carry guns, and drive automobiles (stupid Saudis).
Mike S
idm
I’ll give you that point. Yes I am fully against President Bush. But as I said in another thread, I was happey when he came straight out and said that what happened at Abu Ghraib was not the way Americans act and said so at the time.
The ideals of which I speak were mostly the same as John expressed in a couple of posts. I hold us to a higher standard than any other country in our treatment of prisoners. I don’t, and won’t, accept the excuse of “they are worse.” I believe the best way to lead the world into more open and free society’s, as well as human rights, is by example. And I fully believe that when we don’t match our rhetoric with actions we do more harm than not using the rhetoric in the first place.
I think the reactions to this have hurt our military far more than the comments by Durbin. I am disgusted by things like “I heart Gitmo” and “What happens in Gitmo…” and believe that none of this is a joke. I think it would be far better for our soldiers if we were to have an open investigation because as of now we look like we just don’t care.
I have the utmost respect for the military, as many of my friends are both current and retired, and think the actions in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and Bagram(sp?) besmirch their fine names.
When I see veterans like John, who I respect, and Tacitus, not so much, make the same case as me I know that not only am I mostly right but also that we do still have more in common than not.
I do not deny that I would prefer to have Democrats in office. But if this happened under one I would be just as, if not more, outraged.
BumperStickerist
Why buy the Gitmo Cookbook when you can look at it for free?:
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/49thcsc/49th_CSC_Food_Service/TM_10-412/Recipe_Index.htm
Lyonaise Rice:
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/49thcsc/49th_CSC_Food_Service/TM_10-412/Recipe_E/E00501.pdf
Mustard Dill Baked Fish:
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/49thcsc/49th_CSC_Food_Service/TM_10-412/Recipe_L/L11905.pdf
This all seems inocuous enough, but these are obviously sanitized cooking instructions. The classified cooking instructions show just how barbaric things have become ‘Behind the Wire’
Mustard Dill Baked Fish: – Classified Recipe
Culinary ~ wink~ Institute ~wink~ of America ~ wink (CIA)
Method:
1. Separate filets or steaks, cut into 4.5 ounce portions if necessary. Administer subcutaneous cuts to detainee, ensure that detainee is firmly bound to a sturdy chair. Use separate knives for meal preparation and interrogation
2. Lightly spray pans with cooking spray. Ask the detainee a question, if the detainee is uncooperative, spray cut with cooking spray.
3. Arrange single layers of fish on sheet pans.
4. Spray detainee again with cooking spray, add one pinch salt, Kosher salt, if available..
5. Combine lemon juice, melted butter or margarine, prepared mustard, granulated sugar, whole dillweed and garlic powder. Reserve cayenne pepper sauce and lemon rind. Blend ingredients well. Drizzle mixgture over fish.
6. Spray wounds of detainee with lemon juice if they remain non-cooperative.
7. Using a convection oven bake fish at 325 degF, 7 minutes on high fan.
8 During 7 minutes cooking time, hold bottle of cayenne pepper sauce up to detainee, ask if Mohammed liked it ‘extra spicy’ make masturbatory motions with the bottle. Have sous chef hold detainee in a restrained position and add one shot to detainee’s mostrils.
9. Check fish. Internal temperature must reach 145degF for 15 seconds. Hold at 140 degF to serve.
10. If detainee still hasn’t talked, have translator say “If you won’t talk, you don’t need the use of your tongue.” Have sous chef restrain detainee, pour 1/4 cup cayenne pepper sauce into detainee’s mouth, clamp mouth shut, hold for 30 seconds.
11. Plate fish according to serving environment. Garnish with fresh parsley, if available.
12. After depanning fish, strike the detainee across the back and shoulders with still hot cooking sheet.
13. Leave detainee shackled to the chair.
14. Say a prayer to the Christian God and His Son
15. Enjoy your meal.
–
Hmmmmm….. John C. might be onto something here.
jdm
So, Mike S., w/o assuming anything, I’ll just ask. How did you feel about the siege & attack at the Branch Davidian compound and the same on Randy Weaver’s property?
Many of those same tactics used in Gitmo/Abu G were used previously in these two situations albeit with a Democrat adminstration. Also against whatsisname in Panama – in that case it was Republicans tho’ (I think).
Do/did you feel just as strongly about our compromised ideals and international reputation in these episodes?
Mike S
For the life of me me I am at a loss for the Waco comparrisons. Loud music? That’s never been a problem with me. I’ve also never figured out the right’s defence of a cult leader, incert Moon snark here, who opened fire on ATF agents who were serving a lawfully obtained warrent. If you are talking about the loud music being played to drive them out, it is still a false equiv because we were no in possession of them. Shuting off water, power and heat was an attempt to get them to surrender and into custody. Neither of those do not apply to prisoners in custody.
Weaver, iirc, was also being served but the idiot who took the shot was, well, an idiot.
Noriega was an entirely different situation. And again, loud music not a problem with me. Especially since it was Zep.
A lot of this debate(?) has to do with the false impressions the talk radio blowhards sewed in this. Starting the tape after the part about defication and urine was totally disengenuous. They wanted political points and t shut down any talk of the real issues which were the ones conveniently left off of every single show.
Mike S
BTW A friend was on one of the Seal teams that went Panama. He told me it was hairier than we were led to believe.
jdm
Thanks, Mike S. your answer was exactly what I expected.
J. Michael Neal
I am appalled at what happened to Randy Weaver and at Waco. however, the former happened before the 1992 election, and the siege of the Branch Davidians started about a month after Clinton took office, and about a month before Janet Reno was confirmed, so I think that those tragedies say a lot more about the culture of the FBI than they do about Democratic administrations.
As for your other claim, you are correct that I want to deliver a blow to Bush at every opportunity. However, that desire does not exist in a vacuum. I want to do so precisely because his administration does things like this. I’m not some sort of crazed lefty; I voted for Dole in 1996. I’m appalled at the current state of the Republican party, and would like nothing better than for it to return to a state where I could vote for it.
However, it’s very kind of you to be more concerned about my motives than what is going on in our prisons.
jdm
J Michael Neal – in politics, motives are everything, sunshine.
Mike S
What’s that supposed to mean? You think Koresh, or Jesus as he thought of himself, was a good man? When they opened fire on the ATF it should have been ignored? Should his molestation of the children be discounted?
C’mon. Make your case. Or do you have one outside of the Talk Radio crap?
Rick
The best take on Gitmo comes, of course, from James Lileks:
Gitmo is the gulag equivalent of a Ben Affleck movie: no one’s seen it, but everyone has an opinion about it. Given all the rhetoric that’s been spilled about this sorta-kinda-not-really Death Camp, it’s time we re-examine the facts, and remind ourselves what’s really at stake. Herewith a summation.
Q: What is Gitmo?
A: Contrary to what some suggest, it does not stand for “Git mo’ Peking chicken for Muhammad, he wants a second portion.” It stands for “Guantanamo,” a facility the United States built to see if the left would ever care about human rights abuses in Cuba. The experiment has apparently been successful.
Q: Who’s in Gitmo?
A: Operation Scoop Up The Little Lost Lambs plucked men from distant countries and brought them to Gitmo to beat them deaf for no apparent reason. There are between 400 and 30 million people at Gitmo, and somewhere between zero and 15 million people have died there.
Cordially…
Mike S
Yup. According to many on the right, the best thing writen about gitmo is a joke about gitmo. Gnat sure is a lucky girl.
“Hey Gnat. What’s brown and lays in brown and yellow?
“I don’t know daddy, what?
“One of our prisoners at gitmo.”
ahahahahah
Gary Farber
Incidentally, I could be wrong in thinking that the guy at “http://andrewolmsted.com” is named “Andrew Olmsted,” and not “Andrew Olmstead,” but I recall misspelling his name in the past as the same as the park designer, myself.
Rick says: “I can’t ‘show’ you here, because a demonstration turns into the real thing; that is, the command stuff stays hidden.”
Well, yes, of course, displaying <this> or <that> is simply impossible, even for computer-illiterate morons like me! Cordially… oh, wait, I also know how to not trail off an ellipsis that doesn’t finish a sentence!
And I really, truly, madly, deeply, know nothing about HTML beyond having read less than a dozen tags a decade ago, and knowing how to — here’s a frigging hint — look them up. Somehow it doesn’t seem actually impossible to “show” this. Deeply mysterious as some may find it.
Stormy 70
Gary – I tried looking it up, and I didn’t understand it. Why are you harshing Rick’s mellow? All he did was offer to help me out. Sheesh.
Mikey
Mike S. and the other Defenders of Durbin(TM):
The hyperbole killed any competent investigation into conditions at Gitmo for the time being. The overblown comparisons simply said that this wasn’t honest criticism, but merely another lame attempt to get President Chimpy McHallibushitler.
Try honest criticism without the overblown rhetoric and you might get a hearing from the American people. As it is now, it merely looks like (A) you adhere to our enemies; or (B) you’re a political hack; or (C) an idiot without any judgment or sense of proportion; or (D) all of the above. Wild baseless allegations do nothing for you and nothing for the country you puport to love. Try some constructive criticism for once.
Of course, I can say this because no one will follow this advice.
LaurenceB
Mikey,
Ironically, the original post from John was one of the few attempts I’ve seen at “constructive criticism”. Yet, it appears that none of the comments up to this point have followed his lead, choosing instead to wallow in predictable partisan bickering. It’s too bad really.
Here’s some “constructive criticism”:
The Bush Administration is right that there is a need to hold prisoners (especially foreign fighters) captured in Afghanistan until the conflict is over. A mistake was made my the Administration to not declare these men to be POWs hold them like POWS would be held in any other war. This mistake was made because the Administration was a bit over-zealous and wanted to use interrogation techniques that are frankly unacceptable behavior and, considering that OBL is still alive and free, have apparently not been effective.
So… Keep Guantanmo. Declare the prisoners to be POWs and stop interrogating them altogether. Invite the IRC and Amnesty International and anyone else to come see how nicely we’ve turned this thing around. Problem solved.
Mikey
LaurenceB:
Good. That’s the opening to a debate. And John did do the constructive criticism thing. My comments, as you rightly noted, were directed to the comments thread.
I agree, Guantanamo must be kept open, else where would we keep these guys? Wake Island could be used, but it’s a little isolated, and getting them on US soil means the ACLU and the NLG will be filing motion after motion after motion to do their frivolous best to tie up the US government. I can’t accept that, not with these guys and not with this war.
I do not believe that they can be declared POWs because they are not part of a recognized military. That’s a legal definition that I do not believe they meet, hence they are called detainees. Something will have to be done to deal with them, perhaps declare them “captured irregulars” after a military determination. Not sure what to do about that.
Regarding letting in the IRC and Amnesty International, I’m not sure that can be done now. AI has blown its credibility with its cheap remarks. The IRC did the same back in 2001 when we opened the facility at Guantanamo. There would have to be an organization that will treat the USA honestly, and I’m not sure there is an international humanitarian group that will do so.
Review of interrogation techniques has been done (if what news reports I’ve read are accurate) and likely will continue to happen as we search for better ways to extract what we want. Abuses will be handled in the usual flow of military justice. There is no call for congressional hearings unless the military justice system fails.
That was fun.
Rick
Stormy,
He missed his 5 a.m. feeding.
Cordially…
LaurenceB
Mikey,
In defense of my proposal to end interrogations, I have two questions:
Why insist on continuing to interrogate prisoners that have been interrogated now for three years or so without any appreciable results? It seems fruitless.
What is the downside of inviting Amnesty International and the International Red Cross? If we were to end our interrogations, there would be no downside, and a huge upside. Remember, AI may have lost credibility with American Conservatives, but the other half of Americans, and the entire rest of the world still respects their opinion.
It seems to me that ending the Guantanamo interrogations would be a very wise move.
gratefulcub
The military justice system has failed. We have dead detainees. We have plenty of evidence and testimony (from former interrogators, military people, etc, not dissassembling terrrorists) that torture has occurred systematically. But, we don
Rick
“Guantanamo,” a facility the United States built to see if the left would ever care about human rights abuses in Cuba. The experiment has apparently been successful.
A runaway success.
Cordially…
gratefulcub
You nailed it Rick, please check out my website for lefty gear, IhateAmerica.com
We have all the latest trends
I heart Castro cigar boxes
Democracy for Me, Dictators for You T-shirts
The Only Good Dissident is a Bloodied Dissident Visors, for those sunny vacations to Havana
Rick
Grateful,
Thanks, but no need; I live near D.C.’s Dupont Circle and Adams Morgan area, and the street vendors and books stores are loaded with that stuff.
Cordially…
Mikey
LaurenceB.:
We are also picking up new people and sending them there, so we are probably interrogating the new ones. I’m speculating on that, but then again, so are you. We also have to hold avowed enemies of the USA who have taken up arms against us. The only other sane option is to shoot them. If Guantanamo gets the knickers of the internationalists in a twist, executions would send them into orbit.
AI has lost credibility with just American conservatives? Only with them? Why should I listen to what they have to say or believe they could be fair at this point? Same with the IRC, what indications have they given that they would be scrupulously honest? I haven’t seen any lately.
International public opinion still respects them after what they’ve said about the USA, making it sound worse than North Korea. People elsewhere in the world find that comparison apt and I should listen to their opinion? Puh-lease! I’m sory, but I cannot take an opinion like that seriously and thus my concern for the opinion of the rest of the world is pretty much at nil now. If they can’t be honest why should I act according to their opinion? It probably wouldn’t be in the best interests of the USA, but instead motivated by hate and spite. This is a war, not a beauty contest and we have to win it, not just for us but for the other people out there. The Jihad-or-Bust crowd won’t stop with the USA.
Kimmitt
left would ever care about human rights abuses in Cuba.
Seventy prisoners of conscience remained imprisoned at the end of the year, although the true number could be higher. All but two had been sentenced to prison terms ranging from 26 months to 28 years. The two had not been tried or sentenced.
…
There were several reports of ill-treatment of prisoners, including kicking and beating.
In November prisoner of conscience N
Darrell
Kimmitt, I think an honest comparison of the # of AI press conferences & press releases over Gitmo vs. Cuba’s prison system (thousands imprisoned without trial for selling food on the black market or turned in by neighbors) would sum it up.. I think it’s dishonest of you to pretend that AI is being even handed with their criticism
Sojourner
Are you trying to prove that the U.S. is not as bad as Castro? Has the bar been lowered that much? Is defending one adminstration’s incompetent actions worth trashing this country’s reputation?