And the bullshit continues in earnest:
Late last week, Bush said he was unhappy with the overall response, but the aide made it clear he was most upset with the local plan — not his own administration’s efforts. Bush lost patience with local officials when he learned that thousands of people were sent to the New Orleans convention center for relief only to learn their was no assistance for victims there, the aide said, calling this the “tipping point.” Bush infuriated Blanco and other local officials when he sought late Friday night to federalize the relief effort and seize control of National Guard and other operations. The governor refused, and tensions between the federal and local officials worsened.
“We’re still fighting over authority,” New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said over the weekend. “A bunch of people are the boss. The state and the federal government are doing a two-step dance.”
Landrieu, echoing the concerns of others, said that “it’s mind-boggling to everyone in Louisiana, including myself, why the president did not send forces earlier.” Blanco commands the vast majority of the National Guard troops and should be questioned as to why she did not move more quickly, the senior aide responded.
Why the hell is this still an issue? Why is this not under total federal control by now? Is there anyone out there who thinks this is still a state issue, and that the feds should not be in charge? What am I not getting here?
Oliver
A: The guy you voted for for president is an unmitigated disaster.
Remfin
My guess? They may not say it to the cameras (the martial law excuse isn’t very good), but I’m guessing the document the Bush Admin gave the Gov. involves a little more than oversight/coordination – they had that authority back with the first letter on the 26th, or really at any time since at any time they can call it an “Incident of National Significance” and take authority
I’m guessing the document would give complete CONTROL of all Hurricane Katrina related activity to FEMA, or NHS, or someone in a direct line of political appointees to Bush. Which will include everything from public statements, to eventual public and private reports on what went right and what went wrong that will have to have their text cleared before they can be released
The ultimate opportunity for a whitewash when you get to write about how much the state of Louisiana screwed up, and it’s all their fault, and blah blah blah, on their own letterhead
stickler
Why is this not under total federal control by now?
Well, the Feds had most of last week to prove that they had their act together. To be charitable, they failed. Just view the video of that guy from Jefferson Parish with Tim Russert. Now, when it’s about the lives of their constituents, and Brown, Chertoff, LLC has failed abysmally, what do you expect?
Bush was strumming a guitar on Tuesday, went back to Crawford for a nice night with his blankie, and then moseyed off to the disaster site. Any surprise that the locals are hacked off at him?
derek
“The guy you voted for for president is an unmitigated disaster”
I think maybe…just maybe…someone else voted for him too…
It hurts to lose doesn’t it.
3 words cheeseburger oliver:
GET OVER IT.
DougJ
John, it’s clear that the Feds should be in charge here. If I were Bush or Cheney I would be pretty mad that I’d interrputed my vacation only to be told that the federal government wasn’t in charge.
Vladi G
OK, then, the guy a whole lot of you idiots voted for is an unmitigated disaster. Feel better now?
Remfin
Oh BTW I should point out somethign I forgot – if the “control” scenario is true it would also let them fight all FOIA requests with a “National Security” defense so they wouldn’t have to release ANY documents about this at all. If they don’t have full control there’s a chance the pesky local or state authorities may get FOIA requests and *gasp* hand out their documents to the public
Charlie (Colorado)
Oh, guys, for Gods sake grow up. It’s a Federal system. The Feds can’t take complete control without declaring real martial law, and probably frogmarching the Governor and Mayor off the premises. Which might be a good idea, but ain’t happenin’.
DougJ
Guys, you lefties can say what you want about Rush, but he’s doing his part for flood victims
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1477583/posts
derek
“OK, then, the guy a whole lot of you idiots voted for is an unmitigated disaster. Feel better now?”
Yeah, Kerry was such a better choice.
Idiot.
P.S I hear Kayne West is recruiting backup singers. Interested?
Gregory Markle
The answer is simple:
Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.
The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. “Quite frankly, if they’d been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals,” said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.
A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.
Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.
ppGaz
How dense does someone have to be at this point, not to get that?
No disrespect, but …. Jesus.
Did you not see the “show” these people put on Friday?
And then we have Newsweek:
This is not rocket science, people.
These are the people who are going to give you a democratic Iraq and a pacified Middle East? Who have some secret understanding (as yet unshared) about how to fight something called a “War on Terror?”
Round and round we go, is right. Round, and round.
derek
I love using the NYT and Newsweek as valuable and definate sources.
Also, I heard a baby was born with 34 heads from the National Enquirer. That’s gotta apply somehow, right?
Piss off. Go join your buddy Sean as he makes an effort to save the black people that we so hate.
P.S – don’t forget the boat plug this time.
Ancient Purple
Nice quoting a piece of completely and totally debunked piece of tripe, Mr. Markle.
Blanco signed the state of emergency proclaimation on August 26, 2005, a fact which has been documented about a dozen times on this site, and by the Washington Post.
In case you missed it (and clearly you did), you can find the proclaimation here.
djc
OK, bright boy, then why didn’t she treat it as a emergency?
Blanco had(s) authority over the LA NG, not Bush.
You would think by the time that they knew that 2/3rds of the NO PD had deserted, she might done something semi-rational, like sending in the NG to take control.
Off Colfax
Not only that, AP, but all Markle did was do a copy/paste of the Post article. Without credit, at that. And furthermore, an article that’s had a correction issued. Which, of course, he didn’t cite.
I’ll leave the snark about ethics to guys like Atrios…
Try to spin a little better next time, Markle. This one failed miserably.
Kimmitt
What am I not getting here?
That the Administration is a bunch of lying sacks trying to cover their asses?
DougJ
Look, I’m as big a supporter of president Bush as you’re going to find, but the administration dropped the ball here. These attempts to blame on local officials are just plain wrong. That’s not to say that the local officials didn’t do anything wrong, but this is a time for the president to show leadership, not point fingers.
Frankly, I’m disapointed. After the way, he handled 9/11, I thought the one thing that everyone had to agree on — even the Bush-bashers — is that president Bush knew how to exude leadership during a crisis. And in this crisis, he just hasn’t. From not cutting short his vacation to joking at the New Orleans airport about the good times he had there as a kid to the finger-pointing that’s going on now, the whole performance has been, well, “Clintonesque”.
We’re just going to look like nuts if we use erroneous (and now corrected and retracted) items from the Washington Post to make our points. Let’s just admit that, in this case, Bush screwed up. Everyone’s human.
DougJ
And, please, whatever you do, don’t talk about what a great job Michael Brown did. He and Chertoff should be fired on the spot.
djc
Snark, Snark, Snark, Little Boy (saw your website, you shouldn’t post your picture)
Have any evidence about these lies?
Mr Furious
Hmmm. What were the bone-headed jokes and comments from Clinton after Oklahoma City, DougJ? I can’t seem to recall them.
Other than your gratuitous swipe at Clinton, I find myself agreeing with you tonite. (Maybe I should go to bed…)
James Emerson
Face it boys, the President has all the authority he needs to take over a state of emergency. He has the authority, but…alas…he is seriously lacking in the leadership department.
Mike S
Funny that you’re gloating while your hero is being shown to be a complete disaster.
If you haven’t seen the many just from the last few days alone, you are hopeless. Of course you probably still believe that no state of emergency was declared, that no one could have predicted that the levies could breach or that the hurricane was a cat 1 until just a couple of hours before landfall as the new GOP hero Barbour has claimed.
Appearently the only lies that matter are about blow jobs.
Ancient Purple
That wasn’t my point. Markle quoted a now retracted part of the Washington Post story and I called him on it.
Tell me, how does your question in any way mitigate the fact that Markle quoted a story that has been proved patently false?
Mike S
Other than the dead enders, I don’t see much hope for this.
Mike S
I’m sure you prefer Newmax.
djc
Never mind the blowjobs (she was a fat assed bitch anyway).
This is the internet. Link to a reliable news source that proves that BushCo has been spewing bullshit over the last week.
John Cole
Someone be a dear and explain the difference between publicized contingency plans and legal requirements for a second.
Just Some Guy
We are turning a corner.
Pb
djc,
What’s a “reliable news source”. We might as well get that particular semantic idiocy out of the way first.
Anyhow, here are a few different articles for you to peruse in the meantime.
djc
Mr Cole,
I believe a lot of the legal wranglings have to do with compliance with the Posse Comitatus Act and states rights.
Now, I gather you’ve served in the military, and so I may be ignorant about whether the P.C. Act applies, but there seems to be some federalism issues that are relevant.
From what I’ve gleamed from reading from sources regarding U. S. law, if Bush wanted to have completely “federalized” the LA situation, he would have to have overridden the legal authority of both the LA governor and the NO mayor with an Executive Order.
I gather this hasn’t been done since the civil rights days in Arkansas in the 1950s(?60s)
Even if he had, the moonbats who are now calling him incompentent, would be calling him a dictator (Chimpy McHitlerHaliburton!). But then again, they do that all the time anyway.
stickler
Okay, look. Let’s just hang off for a few more days on the blame-game, and let the after-action reports come in.
For example, let the authorities gather the corpses. And count them. If the number is distressingly high (which I think it will be, worse than Galveston in 1900), then that will be one data point.
And if they can determine time of death on many of them, that will be another data point. If too many of them died after, say, Wednesday, will any of the Bush fedayeen on this site admit that the Federal response was lacking? After all, asking the 1200 New Orleans policemen/women to keep order in a devastated city AND rescue the isolated, after 72 hours, is asking too much.
One older lady, the mother of Jefferson Parish’s emergency director, drowned on Friday night. Or so the Parish President asserted on Tim Russert’s show. Maybe her nursing home was off on an unmarked cul-de-sac somewhere, hidden from the Army? Like the Convention Center was?
For now, while the waters are still subsiding and the various reptiles of the bayou are still being shooed away from the corpses, let’s settle on a few data points that might allow us all to scientifically evaluate the events of the past week. What would constitute evidence of incompetence on the part of the Bush Administration? What would, instead, indict the Governor, or the Mayor?
djc
What about the NO police force? Apparently 1000 of them decided to retire last week.
maybee
You ask a good question, John Cole. And it is the kind of answer I would like to hear from CNN, NYTs, or the Washington Post. They’ve done a lot of outrage expression, a lot of blame shift coverage, and very little explanation of the laws that exist, how they have to be followed, what they mean, and why.
We could also be asking why it should not remain under state control. Blanco seems not to want to give it up. Should she? Any answers?
Andrei
Bullshit.
Here’s what I want to know… I want to know how some of you on the right side of the fence can consider this President competent. Forget what we say… what on earth gives you the feeling that this President exhibits any competency whatsoever?
Aaron
Hmmmm, isn’t obvious?
1. Compare LA with MS for state government’s effectivesness.
2. Compare this hurricane with others.
I suspect we can eventually suss out where the problems were…I’d also start looking at the authorities who were supposed to be in charge, and I don’t think that starts with the President.
It starts with mayors and governors. Unfortunately, they are both Democrats and this means they have some supporters who just do not want to hold them accountable.
djc
Andrei,
Please feel free to enlighten us on where Bush specifically has fucked up on this LA thing.
Facts please. Your “feelings” aren’t relevant.
Robert Wallis
I am a little slow so bare with me, I need some help in understanding all of this. The pres. granted emergency aid Friday (I assume in response to the gov. letter for help) now was this for financial aid only? Next we all agree that the need for evacuation was known at least by Friday. we know that NO had a plan for evacuation that included using the buses ( I do not know how to link but am sure the bright people here can find and link it) It is stated that Bush did not care about the poor black, but it was the mayor of NO who did not call for or provide the buses to these same people to evacuate the city. At what point should the pres. usurp the authority of the gov and mayor and taken control of the evacuation? when (what day) should he have taken control of the national guard? should he have given the gov and mayor a chance to do their job? or should he have displaced them earlier? (It was not necessary in the other states). I seem that I have rambled a bit but the blame starts with the failure of the mayor and gov. since it was their responsibality to evacuate the city in a timely manor
dylan
derek, the big jack-off from 2:16 AM–
before you leave this discussion, please understand a few things:
1) saying that someone is fat is akin to pulling some girls hair. we all did it when we were young and felt some sort of compulsion to do so…. and then we turned 7.
2) quit that whole NYT/Newsweek harshin’ yo’ buz BS. Open your paper and read it; it’s all the same news…bad!
3) I would say that your Kayne West slam was so good, but i can’t. John Kerry..Michael Moore…Howard Dean……Bill Clinton. It’s so damn fun sweatin’ to the oldies. Yeah!! Wait..hold on.. Hillary sucks too!
Oooohh Ouch Derek stop…hurts so bad. Such fresh and ground breaking material.
Slide
John Cole:
Publicized Contingency plans? Do you mean the Natioal Response Plan put out by Homeland Security? The NRP is THE fucking plan to deal with disasters and terrorists attacks. THE plan not just some contingency plan. Its signed by Tom Ridge, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell and every other CABINET officer in office in December of 2004. I think that “contingency plan” gives the President all the authorization he needed to do what he had to do to deal with this disaster.
In the NRP it said:
and to the poster that said its really not the President’s responsibility, this, once again from Homeland’s Security’s OWN National Response Plan:
Now, if only the Federal Government had done as their own plan authorized and directed them to do we would have done a lot better.
To try and now blame local authorities (which are NOT blameless let me state for the record) is just another cynical attempt by an Administration that refuses to be held accountable for ANYTHING it does or doesn’t do.
Left turn signal
The barking dogs….the Right and the Left are only two of the dogs barking at the moment. Soon there will be others.
At issue was getting help to my fellow citizens who happened to be in New Orleans. So grab your Google and Nexus controls and start searching for what happened in Florida last year. There you will find that FEMA and other fed groups did a lot for Florida BEFORE the hurricanes hit and after. Compare that to New Orleans and you will find out who failed to perform. (Some things are just easier when your brother calls you.)
Slide
What gets me is how easily the Bush apologists get spun. They can find all sorts of arcane reasons and twisted logic why the POTUS is not respnsible for a national disaster like Katrina but they buy hook, line and sinker the obviously orchestrated attempt to pin the blame on LA’s Governor.
The adminstration LIARS have already managed to ‘spin’ the Washington Post and now Newsweek with FALSE information. Josh Marshall in Talking Points Memo says it better than I can:
.
Cromagnon
The Bush White House had other priorities:
SEARP
I can see the locals resisting because they do not trust the Feds. Why is that hard to understand?
Cromagnon
Plus, all the those still in NO have to do is wait for Jesus! and all will be well
zzyzx
“1. Compare LA with MS for state government’s effectivesness.”
Which state had a metro region of over a million under water? It’s a lot easier to keep order when you don’t have that.
slide
I guess this says it all:
.
So all you BUSH APOLOGISTS are you just going to be patsies for ROVE’s orchestrated smear attack on LA officals? Are you going to be so gullible yet again for Rove diversions.
Its not the “yellow cake” lie its Joe Wilson’s wife.
Its not us it was the CIA with WMD.
Its not us its Richard Clarke that fucked things up.
Its not us its the midnight crew at Abu Garib
Its not us that leaked Valerie Plames name it was the newsmedia
But the Kool-aid drinkers will keep on gulping. Lets see if John Cole continues to pour the kool-aide for everyone by starting threads like this trying to pin the blame on LA.. JUST LIKE THE ADMINSTRATION WANTS.
capelza
I know this is a very serious discussion, but that has me laughing way too hard.
I don’t KNOW why it isn’t under federal control, but based on the past weeks performance, if I was Governor I’d be hesitant to let the Feds run it all on their own. Also, as was said above, the trust issue, the accountability issue, all these are factors. It’s easier to hide or change the truth when you control ALL of the information.
I know that this is really petty, considering the magnitude of the events around the Gulf. But the Chief of Police of Portland, Oregon refused to join the HSD Terrorist task force because the feds would not let he or the mayor have the security clearance that would allow any real oversight of how the feds were using (or abusing) the Task Force in our area.
I can see her point. If any of the reasons above are part of it. The less than stellar performances of any of the folks (from the mayor up to the President) does not inspire much confidence. Giving all the power to the biggest incompetent might not be such a good idea.
But then what do I know, I thought when Bush declared the region a disaster area, that all that federal stuff kicked in right away. Obviously I was wrong.
chadwig
If only Bush’s leadership was as good as his spin-machine. Here is Bush’s order of concern: 1) Politics 2) Making sure his friends make money. 3) Making sure nothing throws him off his vacation plans. 4) Photo ops. 5) His dog. 6) NOLA.
Spin all you want Bush apologists, people will not forget that Bush, Condi, and (where’s) Cheney, felt no need to end their vacations in the face of disaster. This is especially egregious in the case of the President, who’s vacation had been a very French five weeks long.
Narvy
From the NYT article pointed to by Cromagnon:
If only they had rolled out a plan to contain the physical damage from Hurricane Katrina.
Steve
This Whitehouse can put forth a tremendous effort when they want to. Sadly, it’s never an effort to solve a problem, but rather to distance themselves from the problem with their spin machine.
In this case, they are looking to blame their fuckups on the local government. Sadly the 101st keyboard fighting wing of the Republican party is more than willing to repeat the stories without doing any substantial thinking on their own.
Fortunately, Blanco has hired James Lee Witt to coordinate response activities in the state. He’s the former FEMA director from when FEMA actually functioned.
Mel Tannehill
As it always is with Bush admin disasters, the effort being put into finger pointing and blame assigning far out-strips anything put into dealing with the original problem.
Meanwhile, here on Planet Earth, the new Rasmussen Poll shows the feds getting a 70% “Fair” or “Poor” rating for the response to the New Orleans disaster. Bush’s approval number tumbles to 44% here as well, with 55% saying he is just doing a lousy job.
The Bushies are playing nothing but politics now. The negligent Guitar George has been caught napping (again), and now his National Spin Guard is out doing its dirty work. But it ain’t working very well.
james richardson
silly derek, still in “bitter campaign” mode.
we’re not upset that bush won re-election. we’re upset with everything he’s done since.
John Cole
Here we go again. While the bullshit may continue at the state and federal level, it seems to also be continuing in earnest in the comments section here and among the lefties.
I am endlessly amused at you ‘straight shooters’ who strive for an ‘honest assessment’ of what went wrong and always seem to instinctively aim in one direction.
‘B-b-b-b-ush!’ You scream, with a tourette’s like stutter.
There is plenty of blame to go around here, and there are plenty of reasons to be pissed at all branches of government, and there should be calls for inquiriesto get it right.
But that isn’t what this is about to half of you here. This is, like the myopic motherfuckers who couldn’t do anything but hate Clinton years ago, this is all about Bush. More accurately, it is all about how some of you are just stark raving mad.
John Cole
That is prettty rich, coming from you. What is the narrative today from the Daily Kos, oh brave and noble independent thinker? Get your MoveOn minutes yet?
neil
I don’t think it’s really fair for John to complain that “the lefties” are being infantile if it’s only one or two people who are actually doing it. And it’s especially unfair when he steps down to their level to do it
ppGaz
Actually, no it’s not, and you are myopic one.
It’s about the Bush-lovers who seem to think that protecting the image of their precious leader is the most important thing going on here.
If they’d act reasonable, most of this churn would be unnecessary, because the reaction of the average person is what is going to count, and nothing said in here — no offense to you — is going to have much of an effect on that, at all. Zero.
No, this is about rubbing the noses of you dogmatic Bush-lovers in the feces of this story, and wondering in amazement how you all can watch the spectacle that this “president” put on last Friday, and not be sick to your stomachs.
And last, it’s about you, John, and your amazing and steadfast apparent fealty to the “protect Bush at all costs” motive. If you aren’t doing that, all I can say is, you are doing one hell of an imitation of someone who is.
Narvy
And to the other half it’s about … what?
ppGaz
GHW Bush has spoken to the cameras.
This is what a competant president looks and sounds like.
Compare, contrast.
Mel Tannehill
Neil: Being a Bush apologist these days is just very stressful work. Go to any site dedicated to the cult of the Kennebunkport Cocaine Cowboy and you’ll see pretty much the same thing. But to John’s lasting credit he does allow those who take umbrage at his desperate stand to post on his site. Which shows he has a lot more guts than the puling Bushie cowards on most similarly situated sites.
John Cole
I don’t love Bush. But I don;t think throwing to the wolves is appropriate, either.
I can list about 100 things that piss me off abuot Bush, starting with Abu Ghraib and going right through Zimbabwe, but the crap you guys levy at him is just absurd. I am beginning to understand why progressives defended Clinton, even though he was a moderate/conservative who really did nothing for progressives. It is because the people attacking him were so god damned insane.
Life is unfair.
Narvy
I can see why you make that comparison, but I think it behooves you to compare the behavior that set the Clinton-haters off with the behavior that infuriates the Bush-haters.
cd6
I like this site cause its got better debate than most other sites I can think of
But this line
could have been copy/paste from freerepublic for all I know
geez
ppGaz
Well, I don’t know what that means, and I’m not asking, because I haven’t time today to get into it.
But you did see the Friday spectacle? What did you think?
Let’s overlook the possibility that the debacle is not entirely “Brownie’s” fault. That’s not the issue.
The issue is, what in the living hell did Bush think he was doing there? People were dying in the water of NO as he spoke, people were desperate, people were angry. THAT’S WHAT HE CHOOSES TO SAY AND DO? What kind of moron does something like that?
An insulated man who is totally self-absorbed and has no contact with the realities of the world around him?
Can you picture another president putting on that embarassing dog and pony show? Because I can’t, seriously.
You’ve got about one Bush-o-matic guy in here who gets this, and that is DougJ. Yes, DougJ gets it. He is still behind his man, but he sees that this situation is a mess and embarassing.
You need a few more DougJ’s around here. I am dead serious. I can’t always fathom what DougJ is trying to do, but on this issue, he has it right. If you don’t want to listen to me, listen to him.
Narvy
You say that as though it’s a bad thing.
(Must…resist…sarcastic…impulse.)
Davebo
“This is, like the myopic motherfuckers who couldn’t do anything but hate Clinton years ago, this is all about Bush.”
No John, it’s all about the Bush administrations incredible incompetence and the lives of US citizens it has cost.
And then there’s the side issue, created in no small part by you (at least here) and the GOP commenters.
It’s your basic scandal/coverup duo and it’s nothing new to politics in America.
DougJ
Ronald Reagan once said “The scariest words in the English language are ‘We’re the federal government and we’re here to help.'” And if that Broussard guy on Russert yesterday is to be believed, in some cases FEMA has screwed up things worse than they were before.
Here is a pretty good article about the chain of authority stuff. Here’s a quote from a former FEMA worker.
The federal response has been a disgrace, pure and simple. John, Darrell, and some of the others, you are only compounding the disgrace with your confused apologism. Get with the program, admit there’s been a disaster at FEMA, and encourage the president to fire Brown and Cheftoff before they can kill more people.
CalDevil
Like Florida 2000, Iraq or any number of issues in recent years, I don’t think any entrenched opinions will be changed, but this report from NOLA is interesting:
DougJ
I’m sure Blanco screwed up too. I’m less inclined to pin much blame on Nagin. Obviously, the city wasn’t going to be able to function after it was flooded. He could have done a better job with evacuation, but from what I’ve read, that went about as expected. And the Superdome and Convention Centers, horrible as they may have been, probably saved hundreds of lives.
I should probably come clean about why I feel so strongly about all of this: (1) my brother-in-law used to work in emergency managmemt (for the city of Louisville) and (2) New Orleans is my favorite city in the world. You don’t realize how tough it is doing emergency management at the local level. There’s not a lot of resources, not a lot of people, and the local press can be really tough. When something goes wrong, they hear about it. No one says they should wait a few weeks and criticize, they just start firing away. Why should it be differet for FEMA.
DougJ
One more thing on emergency management and other services like (law enforcement). My brother-in-law says that the way he feels, and a lot of people in this area feel, is that the criticism, even if it’s unfair, is okay, becaue it shows people have faith in you and expect you to handle things. When people stop criticizing these services, you’ll know you’ve lost because it means they don’t think they work anymore.
tBone
You’re right about that – there are some people who are desperate to blame the whole mess on him, and there are other people who are desperate to deflect any blame whatsoever from him.
I’d say both groups of people qualify as “myopic motherfuckers.” Would you agree, John?
John Cole
Yep.
David C.
Just a few facts for the left-wing nutcases here to consider… (I know you don’t let facts interfere with your blind hatred of Bush, but maybe a few might seep through).
Throughout its entire history NO has been vulnerable to a killer hurricane. No administration or government body, whether federal, state, or local has put in the effort to secure the city against a hurricane — if that’s even possible. So basically the city has been getting by on luck. And its luck ran out. But somehow it’s all Bush’s fault.
There’s plenty of blame & incompetence to go around, starting with the NO police force, the city government, the state authorities and going all the way up through the federal government. I don’t think anyone, anywhere believes that the response to this disaster has been some sort of model to be emulated. But to zero in solely on Bush, as if he alone bears the blame, or even the majority of blame, is completely illogical, if not outright crazy.
Davebo
DougJ
No, Nagin has a lot of blood on his hands as well.
leninology.blogspot.com/2005/09/everything-has-gone-according-to-plan.html
Every official has made crucial mistakes. But only FEMA and it’s leadership was tasked with preparing for and carrying out disaster relief full time, year round.
Northman
Allow my cynical side to show for a moment. The reason nobody knows who’s in charge is that the longer it takes for someone to take clear authority, the more the blame can be shifted to the other players in this tragic mess. Round and round indeed.
There should be hell to pay, but nobody wants to be the one to pay it.
tzs
Slightly off topic, but I’m wondering the further ramifications about all of this down the road. All this finger-pointing and attempting to pass the buck around by the Bush Administration leaves me feeling very unsure. Who ARE we expected to have show up in an emergency? And when? And if every disaster, no matter how big it is, is by fiat thrown in the laps of the local and state authorities for the first 78 hours (or whatever it is), why in the heck have we thrown so much money at FEMA/DHS and not parceled it out more to the locals? And if the states are supposed to be in charge of first response, etc., shouldn’t states get their National Guard troops back from Iraq so they can be on hand for response?
Frankly, if everything’s going to get thrown back on the states anyway, then we should just take our balls and go home. State governers should demand local troops be sent back. Cut Federal taxes way back, let states crank up their tax levels to cover what they think is necessary for local support etc. If the federal administration doesn’t want to take on the role of disaster response, fine. But they then shouldn’t get the lion’s share of taxes, either.
jobiuspublius
The best he can do is join the levee repair … as one of the sand bags … at the bottom.
scs
For all the Bush Bashers, if Bush was sooo incompetent, (spelled right I hope!), then why it is that once he started to take control with Federal troops, action happened and the people were fed and evacuated in about a day or two? It was when he WASN’T in control, that the problems happened.
Although the President does have the authority to get control and declare martial law basically when he wants to, Bush is a state’s rights guy and would be hesitant to run over the state’s authority. Short of that, the Feds are supposed to support the State government mostly with Fed work, such as debris clearance and loans and work WITH the STATE Office of Homeland Security to coordinate recovery operations. If the state governor hesitates, fearing turf wars, the Feds are stalled.
By the way, I bet it’s not just a coincidence that all the refugees went to Texas. I bet Bush made a phone call to some old political friends after his visit. Cronyism has its good side too I guess.
slide
John Cole:
Lets boil things down with a few facts. No opinion, just fact.
1) monster Cat 5 storm in gulf – top winds 175 mph
2) track of monster storm – directly at New Orleans
3) NO well known to be most vulnurable city in the US to a hurricane. Christ every news channel was telling us over and over how dangerous this storm was and how NO could be destroyed.
4) levees are known to be built only to CAT 3 storm capability
5) Friday, August 26th Gov of LA declares a State of Emergency
6) Gov sends letter to Bush saying the storm would be beyond the capabilities of local authorities. In other words HELP.
7) Monday morning Katrina hits NO as a Cat 4 storm – beyond known capabilities of levees
8) Tuesday – Bush flies to San Diego to give speech on Iraq comparing Iraq to WW2 and himself to FDR
8) Tuesday – Bush finds time to strum on his offical guitar (Does Nero and a fiddle stike a cord)
So to recap. Monster CAT 4/5 storm hits the most vulnurable city in the USA. Local authorities had said they would not be able to handle it. Officials know that a storm of this magnitude could overwhelm NO’s levee system. Vice president on vacation with no plans to return. Condi going to a comedy play in NY. Rummy no where to be seen and our War President, the man that said if he knew of 911 in advance would “move heaven and earth” he goes to San Diego to give a political speech to bolster his Iraq policy.
So who was in charge? Not the VP, no one has heard from him in days. I’ll tell you who was left in charge. Michael Brown. Yep Brown. And who is Brown. Well, Brown is the head of FEMA of course. His qualifications? None it seems. Absolutely none.
Brown as you must all know was just a political hack. His last job? A 100,000 year attorney for a horse association. A job, that he was fired from. No disaster experience. No management experience. No federal government experience. Shit he’s not qualified to run the county disaster management committee let alone an immensely complicated federal agency that has to coordinate all of the federal goverment in the event of a disaster. What an insult to people that have dedicated their entire adult lives to Disaster Management to have a fuckin political hack loser put in charge.
But…. we are just focusing in on Bush because we hate him. Just business as usual for Washington. What more do you want from the man?
derek
Wow Dylan, looks like a hit a nerve. Jackoff from 2 AM. That’s rich stuff.
I will forever be immortalized in the balloon juice forums.
Also, the backup singer request was legit. Your voice any good?
jobiuspublius
I can’t wait to start following the money. It wouldn’t surprise me to find that funding to first responders was not adequate. For suspicion, the levees. I know, I know, “Oh not the levee meme again”. It’s about the funding. What else was not funded? Look at No Child Left Behind. I wonder if we will see something comprable here.
New York and New Jersey have more money than Louisianna and greater or equal needs. Yet, they depend on federal funding and have recieved less than other locals with fewer needs. The politics of Katrina may have started many years ago.
scs
Slide, I agree that Bush was tin-eared, politically, this last week. Still, that does not translate into OPERATIONAL details of what he was supposed to do last week and didn’t.
A State of Emergency is just a request to ask for Federal funds, that’s its. As far as I know, the state is still supposed to run the show with ASSISTANCE from the Feds. The only thing Bush could have done earlier and didn’t, was take over state responsibilites cause the state and local people messed it up.
John Cole
Yeah. That is a comprehensive overview of events [/snark]
I can’t debate the willfully ignorant. Well, I can, but I won’t.
Slide
John Cole’s ringing defense of the President:
How convenient.
Listen, to me its pretty simple. The President didn’t exert leadership when we needed him most to. All the signs were there that this was potentially a major killer storm. A disaster so immense in its danger that ONLY the Federal Government could handle it. And what does the head of the federal government do at this most dangerous time when hundreds of thousands of lives were in jeopardy? He goes out of town. For politics. Disgraceful.
Leadership John. Competence (did I spell it right?). Don’t you expect more from your president? This is right up there with MY PET GOAT. Leadership John. Its about the total lack of leaderhip and competence. (hope I spelled it right)
ppGaz
If this account is true, the Governor should resign from office forthwith.
scs
well, Slide I think it’s fair to say that Bush should have taken over the state functions earlier, even though that was a pretty radical step, basically unprecedented. That is still not, to not blame the state and local authorities first.
Slide
scs says:
You guys keep saying this and it is absolutely WRONG according to HOMELAND SECURITIE’S own NATIONAL RESPONSE PLAN. I’ve posted the links.. quoted the relevant sections more than once. When you have a disaster of this magnitude its the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT’s RESPONSIBILITY
John Cole
Slide- And this gets to the point of the post that has been conveniently overlooked in more opportunistic attempts to bash Bush.
While all of these plans may exist, it appears that what still, in large part, maybe mucking things up, are legal realities. There is no excuse for that.
I mean, after all, any agency can print pretty pamphlets saying wehat they plan to do, but that doesn;t make it legal.
I will leave it to lawyers, preferrably to the right of Judd Legum atThink Progress (Ramsey Clarke, perhaps? Ralph Nader?) to sort that out. There was a big discussion of this at Goldstein’s yesterday.
And you folks really need to learn the difference between defending Bush at all costs and rebutting over-the-top allegations against Bush. I have no desire to do the former, but I will engage in the latter.
DougJ
That’s really stupid. The problem was that FEMA didn’t get involved soon enough. And Bush never took “control”, Brown and Cheftoff did. To say “Bush did this, Bush did that”, as people on both sides are saying, is inaccurate. The president delegates authority. Unfortunately, in this case, to the wrong people. I do think Bush, Cheney, and Condi should have cut their vacations shorter, for symbolic reasons, but the main problem has absolutely nothing to do with them. It has to do with FEMA and DHS.
ppGaz
I think that’s a good point, Doug. Especially in the case of Brown. Chertoff, I really don’t know. I am not too impressed with DHS since inception.
The president also can display leadership. IMO, he has not done this very well, adding to the outrage. (see: Friday)
John Cole
Jesus. I hate agreeing with Doug. Although I don;t think it is that they did not act fast enough, it is that perhaps they did not act well enough. They were certainly pre-positioning and acting well prior to the event.
And again, Bush does hold ultimate responsibility for his choice in appointments.
DougJ
I agree this shouldn’t be about Bush-bashing, but it should be about FEMA and DHS bashing.
John S.
Here’s the lowdown as I see it.
For Bush Haters
The President is not responsible for this disaster, so to blame him for all the shortcomings of ‘the governement’ is a bit silly. State and local officials will have to answer, too.
For Bush Lovers
The President is the head of the government, and therefore the buck stops with him. He is guilty of failing to lead this country in its time of need, so defending him is a bit silly.
At the end of the day, if anyone can honestly say that they think that everything went smoothly or according to plan, then they need to heave their head examined (unless a lobotomy is the explanation for thinking in such a way).
ppGaz
I hate to keep repeating myself — at the risk of making it look like you guys aren’t listening — but what you see in here is less about Bush bashing and more about Darrell-bashing.
Using Darrell, of course, as the mascot for a certain group of posters. If the Darrells would admit that their boy has a problem here, people would back off.
—/
You have to admit, that “at the risk” remark I made, above, was funny, eh?
jobiuspublius
But, I want impeachments!
John S.
Which would you find more ‘impeachable’?
A) Being responsible (somehow) for the failed disaster recovery
B) A consistent and habitual failure to lead or act in a manner that is befitting a leader
Which do you think our founding fathers would be more concerned with?
scs
Slide I saw a post by Walt in another segment that applies, here are some excerpts:
DougJ
I see where you’re coming from a little here, but, again, the focus should be on substantive errors made by the DHS and FEMA. And also on debunking the whole “it was all the locals’ fault.” FEMA is effing cavalry. This is like if the cavalry said “It’s not our fault it took us three days to get there, the damn infantry were too busy getting shot at to call us in properly.” That just doesn’t wash.
DougJ
Again, I fully expect Chertoff and Brown to be gone by January 1. If they’re not, I promise not to vote for any Republicans (for federal office, you gotta let me have the local and state ones) in 2006. I have every confidence that Bush will force them out as soon as this disaster subsides. He can’t very well do it now.
scs
Well DougJ, I’m not so sure about that. It seems like Chertoff and Brown WERE somewhat involved from Day 1, and things weren’t so smooth. It was AFTER the President was known to take finally charge, knocking heads, pinning down the Governor and getting Federal troops in there on the next Friday that things fell into place. Coincidence?
I do agree that Brown and Chertoff don’t seem that inspiring and that is Bush’s fault ultimately.
John S.
I do not share your confidence. Brownie and Cherty are going NOWHERE. Bush doesn’t care what anyone else (including you, Doug) think about his ‘boys’, and he already stated he thinks they’re doing a fine job.
And WHY can’t he replace them now? Listen, if your ‘best’ pitcher is on the mound and blowing the game for the team, are you gonna keep him out there throwing garbage? No. You replace him with someone who CAN get the job done and put one in the victory column. The ‘don’t change horses midstream’ refrain is old and tired.
And just to snark off my analogy, this would explain why Bush won’t remove Brownie and Cherty — he wasn’t any good at running a baseball team, either.
slide
Listen if you guys are ok with your President going out of town after a killer hurricane hit one of his most vulnerable cities to do a political speech, fine. Estimates of dead have gone as high as 20,000. Thats seven 911’s. Thats ten Iraq wars. Wonder if history is going to be as forgiving as you all seem to be?
And John, for you are hanging your hat on the horrendous performance of the federal authorities on legalities? Doesn’t that say even more about the incompetence of Homeland Security? Four years after 911? Please I don’t even think you can believe what you are saying.
scs
We already agreed Bush had a tin ear and that was pretty bad on its own.
jobiuspublius
That’s part of my criticsm of Bob the Rebuilder in Chief, he and his lackeys gave us this legal cluster fuck that failed us so misserably. It calls everything he has done and will do into question. Actually, I take it as proof that he, his lackeys, and his agenda are hopeless. The past he complained so much about and promised to save us from is looking better than the present he has brought us. I fear for the future.
John S.
I actually expected it of him given his performance on 9/11. What really shocked me was Condi out shopping for Pradas while the shit was hitting the fan.
Northman
I’m with John on this one, agreeing with DougJ is kinda scary. He’s sounding downright reasonable.
John Cole
I am not hanging my hat on anything, but I think it is part of the problem.
And that is not an attempt to ‘excuse’ anything, but an attempt to figure out wtf is going on and what broke down and why.
I know this still does not register with some of you, who clearly take every post in isolation, and do not consider my overall attitude or beliefs in any sort of context, but I really am not trying to just excuse away shit. That doesn;t mean I am going to jump into the deep end of the fever swamps with you, but rather I am actually going to try to figure out what is wrong, why it is wrong, and then deal with the blame.
Which, I admit, isn’t as muych fun as mindlessly screaming about how much you hate Bush or how bad FEMA is, which appears to be your tack.
Any monkey can do that, as this comments section shows.
John S.
Welcome to the Achille’s heel of the ‘Conservative’ movement. Trying to preserve a past that society has moved away from – in whatever form – is generally an ill-conceived notion.
There’s a reason why they say “let’s put the past behind us” rather than “let’s put the past in front of us“.
jobiuspublius
Hands down, B. Seems like B = A^C.
John S.
Any monkey can also defend Bush no matter what, as many of your comments sections show.
But I think I’m on the same page as you, John, after all.
scs
If you’re a monkey who uses facts and logic, then even a monkey can have a point.
Stormy70
The Federal Governmnet is not allowed to send in active duty troops without permission from the Governor, period. It is against the law. Do you really want the federal government to override a state’s governor by force, therefore causing a crisis in government during the aftermath of the biggest national disaster in America? The feds should not have that type of power, ever. Things seemed to get rolling when Honore showed up, and whipped the various responders into shape. Read here about the logistics involved in a response like this.
Narvy
From the Washington Post:
More than 9/11 apparently. So what country poses such a meteorological threat to the US that it justifies an invasion?
ppGaz
Lo and behold …
jobiuspublius
The whole team was out having fun
. That’s why we got to see behid the curtain.
Narvy
Stormy’s defense seems to be that disaster response is hard work. I know I’ve heard someone use that phrase somewhere before. Many times.
Stormy70
Poor pp, can’t even read the link, just has to continue his wittle attacks on me. Loves it! does someone need their spuds this morning?
I haven’t mentioned Bush, at all. Just mentioning a fact, which will never be recognized here by any B-b-b-bush!! bashers.
slide
John Cole:
I’m still waiting for one post from John where he doesn’t find it necessary to insult those that he disagrees with.
And its YOU John that are taking each post in isolation. Its not just one thing but its EVERYTHING that I have read about this disaster that causes me to “blame” Bush. It all adds up, for me, to a govenment that I can have no confidence in to protect me or my family in the event of a natural disaster or terrorist attack in my neck of the woods. There are just a few things that only the Federal government can do and we should demand that they do it well and this is one.
Some of the problems I have seen on the federal level (plenty of blame for local authorities as well)
1) not spending money wisely to protect Americans. Levee projects not funded but 200 million dollar bridges to islands with only 50 people funded. Corruption. Political pork (both parties equally guilty)
2) FEMA being downgraded from a cabinet level post to just one agency in the humungus Homeland Security. Never going to increase efficiency and speed of operation by doing that. That was a Bush policy decison that has degraded FEMA’s ability to operate effectively.
3) appointment of very important jobs demanding expertise going to political hacks with no experience. That was a Bush decision that degraded FEMA’s abilility to operate effectively.
4) no sense of urgency when storm was approaching.
5) seeming disconnect between devastation of storm and offical response. Cheney did not see fit to cut short his vacation. Bush going off on a political speech AFTER the hurrican hit and AFTER the levees have been breeched. What are his priorities. That was a Bush decision that did not convey to all those underneath him the very important job they had ahead of them. Leadership by example sadly absent.
So the disorganized and ineffective response just didn’t happen, its a result of all of the above. Now if they did everythign RIGHT we still would have had thousands die I imagine but you can’t tell me that lives could not have been saved if we had better people in positions of authority working diligently to GET THE JOB DONE. Legalities? When tens of thousands are dying? Do you think Guilianni dithered worrying about legalities when his city was attacked. What a fuckin lame excuse. Leadership has to be exerted at times like this to knock heads around and get things done. And leadership in a case like this has to come from the POTUS.
just the random thoughts of a monkey.
Stormy70
No, it is logistics, the secret to every well planned military campaign. I know some of you think that the military runs on fairy wishes, blink and it is instantly there, but here in reality, logistics are key. I trust the National Guard over the locals and FEMA any day. I still am amazed the city didn’t have the buses moved to higher ground and ready to go. Galveston had their buses fueled up, ready to go if the storm came towards them. With their history, it is better to be safe than sorry.
Anderson
The best he can do is join the levee repair … as one of the sand bags … at the bottom.
A cruel thing to say, but a wonderful mental image: “okay, the helicopter’s got him in place … they’re releasing the latch … CANNONBALL!”
jobiuspublius
…
Hey you Whitehouse, ha ha, charade you are
…
DougJ
These are the main points. The others you make are not so good — e.g. the levee problem has been going on for 40 years, so you can’t blame this administration, who cares about whether Bush and Cheney had a sense of urgency, they’re not the heads of FEMA.
Anyone who denies the validity of points (2) and (3) should probably think about being deprogrammed at some point. Sorry to have to put it that way.
demimondian
I was, too, until I found a two things out.
The union contract didn’t specify that bus drivers were critical personnel for emergency evacuations. The city busses ran anyway, up until the end
The city’s plan was to evacuate to shelters of last resort, and then reevacuate. (Remember that the Superdome’s roof was warranted to 200 MPH gusts…guess somebody has some ‘splainin to do.)
Bottom line: the school busses wouldn’t have helped, and the city’s plan failed because the shelters of last resort weren’t adequately staffed or supplied. That’s failure enough, I think, for anyone to get stuck with.
Narvy
I stand corrected. Perhaps the logistics were easier to execute in Florida in 2004.
(Scroll down to “Here then, are some of the highlights from last year’s relief efforts in Florida”.)
Narvy
So I guess that means they were not in charge.
ppGaz
Stormy, the scotch-swilling broad from Texas who wants to “light up Palestine” because sll the “good” people have left … will no lecture us on military theory.
And John wonders why people get fucking cranky around here.
Andrei
Actually… I think it would be more accurate to note that you spend some time every now and then refuting and lashing out at those of us like ppGaz, myself, who tend to lean more to the left side of the fence. (While I still dont consider myself a leftie.)
The fact is, I haven’t seen you really refute Stormy, Darrell, DougJ or the seemingly gone Rick on the right leaning, often heavily partisan takes on many of your topics. Taking in the context of multiple posts, it then becomes hard for many of us to understand where you really do stand given you don’t respond to some of the incredibly silly crap that comes out of their mouths, much less ours.
Maybe I’m missing certain comments, but I have yet to see it. Silence tends to equal some form of agreement, expecially since it’s your blog. If you don’t tell the like of Stormy and Darrell, who do seem to be making excuses for the administration, that they are out of it, then what does that tell us considering you seem to more than fine telling us when we are?
Slide
John Coles RED TAPE argument is addressed here quite nicely:
.
DougJ
That’s a bad analogy. The head of FEMA is a manager with pre-existing relationships to his staff. You lose efficiency when you make suddent changes.
But make no mistake, Brown and Cheftoff must go.
The sliming of the local authorities in this case makes me sick to my stomach. I have never seen anything so shameless in my life. These fat cats, sitting in Washington, or getting married in Greece or whatever, criticizing people who are getting flooded out of their offices, who are losing loved ones, etc. It’s just wrong.
John Cole
This is not unlike the Indians at Little Big Horn requesting more help. The comments section goes 2-5:1 against them, and you want me to chime in, too? Even when you refuse to acknowledge it on the occasions when they are right? Refuse to budge one inch? Do your arguments need my help?
And can you stop with the ‘silence’ nonsense? Cripes, you don’t like what I post, you don’t like what I comment, and now you don’t like when I DON’T comment?
Jeebus.
John Cole
Slide:
Not gonna do it. My blood pressure has dropped 5 points since I stopped visiting Atridiot.
DougJ
Andrei, John’s gone after me pretty hard in the past on creationism, controlling dissent, etc. He doesn’t pull his punches with those to the right of him.
DougJ
John, actually the leftie blogs are doing an okay job with this one. I’ve been reading them instead of Free Republic the past few days, believe it or not.
ppGaz
Not our arguments. Our sanity.
Narvy
John, DougJ appears to be able to separate the behavior of the people in the administration from the political and social philosophy they purport to implement. You could do that too.
I have a lot of respect for true Conservatives who seek to maintain policies and institutions that they believe are for the common good, but please tell me what the Bush people are interested in conserving, other than the virginity of teen-agers.
TP
The Bush admin. MO regarding hurricane response:
We have to blame them over there (local government) so we don’t get blamed over here (Bush admin).
Stormy70
Yeah, these guys are stellar citizens, and are a huge help to the Palestinian cause. Yeah, I would like to light up the Palestinian terrorists that go on killing rampages. I’m funny that way.
Sorry about the whole sanity issue, but it sounds like a Y.P. to me.
Narvy
Good heavens DougJ, why do you read Free Republic? You’re obviously literate and rational, two qualities not in evidence there.
Stormy70
You only respect those conservatives when they agree with you, otherwise they are right-wing facsists, despite their ownership of Tivos. Next week when you disagree with DougJ all respect will have gone the way of the dodo.
Narvy
And you know this because …?
Darrell
slide wrote:
Of course, you’re only in an honest search for the truth, everyone can see that.. The single most important failure in this tragedy was the inability/unwillingness to evacuate more people. Whose responsibility was that?
slide and the rest of the hysterical left put fingers in ears screaming “it’s all Bush’s fault!!”
Narvy
And you know this because …?
Narvy
You left out all the other adjectives. My literary muse is insulted.
Stormy70
No time, I have to run. The answer to your question is experience.
Narvy
I take it you mean the experience of reading what I’ve posted. When you get back from running, please point to one or two posts of mine that support your assertions.
Thanks
ppGaz
Feeding Stormy’s post into the Binford 6000 Turbo Crapspeak Decoder — Blog Edition, Stormy Special, we get this translation:
“No time, I have run out of bullshit.”
Andrei
Sure. Once in a blue moon would be fine on those occasions you do disagree with them. Otherwise we don’t know where you stand with regard to them (which is somewhat important because they tend to tow what seems to be the more mainstream rightwing agenda and talking points these days) because I have yet to see you disagree with them publicly so far. And they say some pretty outrageous things if you ask me.
Again, I could easily be missing posts where you have, but I just haven’t seen it.
That’s bs. I’ve no problem acknowledging when I think someone is right over my own opinion. Just because I’m as bullheaded as you doesn’t mean I’m wrong either, in the same way you see things as being “right” from your perspective. I just haven’t felt either Darrell or Stormy have been right about hardly anything.
DougJ
Here is another member of the angry left calling for Bush to fire Brown. It’s Michelle Malkin.
Narvy
ppGaz, please, no derogatory comments. I don’t want any distraction from the pleasure of reasoned discourse with Stormy.
DougJ
Narvy, you probably only here about FreeRepublic when someone is cherry-picking it for something stupid. It’s a great forum filled with lots of thoughtful posters and they do the best they can to keep anything offensive off the site. Here’s a funny story: they (rightly) banned Steven Sailer — a somewhat racist scientist of sorts — from the site and New York Times columnists Tierney and Brooks frequently cite Sailer’s work.
So if you want to avoid the truly crazy and offensive, you’d better off reading FreeRepublic rather than the New York Times.
Narvy
In one of the numerous threads about reactions to the disaster, I expressed my amazement at being in agreement with Malkin about something. Now if only she would call for someone to fire Bush.
slide
John Cole:
Once again, John’s argument consists of insulting someone. How illuminating.
DougJ
I just saw an interview with Sean Penn — he is going around in a boat helping to rescue people.
Whatever bad things I ever said about him (and his crazy trip to Iraq) in the past, I take it back. He is a good man.
slide
Can we blame Bush for this?
.
Narvy
When I’ve looked at it in the past, I’ve seen a lot of stupidity and hysterical drivel. When I read your post, I went there hoping to find something really outrageous, but in the sampling I did, I didn’t find much.
There was this one, however.
I really like the last sentence.
Andrei
This is not accurate. Truth be told:
The first part of this disaster involved the inability for state and local officials to get the remaining 20% out of New Orleans before Monday. There are many factors to why this is, most prominentlly having to do with the poverty rate of the peope who stayed behind. For example, even if they had been able to evacute those people, that population of poor didn’t have the means to afford hotels, housing, and the other things needed once they left the city. There simply wasn’t enough proper planning for how to deal with all the poor citizens of New Orleans in a mass evacuation plan. However, it should be noted that sicne 80% of the people got out, there was obviously some plan and that part of the plan worked.
This is a failure that has more to do with how we as a country deal with our own economic policies and our poor (many of whom happen to be either black or hispanic). This tragedy proves how little we understand the problem of poverty in the United States, and how little much of our govenrment understands how to handle the problem effectively, especially in times of crisis. And in this regard, the Democrats are equally to blame as the Republicans when it comes to matters of how to best serve the poor in this country. The fact the Democrats have yet to be able to lead the moral message with regard to policies that can help the poor in this country, especially with regard to education and public services, speaks volumes to the Democractic party’s failure to one of its main constituents.
The second part of this disaster involves a massive failure of leadership from the highest posts in our government once a crisis has struck. We had ineffectual leadership all the way up to the President, who could have done an immense amount more to prove he is as capable of handling a crisis like Mayor Giuliani proved during the unfolding events of 9/11 in New York City.
That lack of leadership and adequate repsonse times, the clusterfuck of red tape in getting anything done in time of crisis, the obvious and crass political photo-ops the President enganged in on Friday once he did make his way to the disaster site, has to be handled at the top level.
If we are going to get hit by a nuclear terrorist attack on a major city, it is not acceptable to say the state and local authorities have jurisdiction, therefore the President can’t do anything about an unfolding tragedy. He’s the fucking President already. If he wants to get something done, it will get done.
That he didn’t is just bullshit and no citizen of this country should accept the performance from last week as any reasonable measure of what the Leader of the Free World should be able to do within the cofines of his own borders when a disaster strikes.
DougJ
Narvy, I suspect that these aren’t the FreeRepublic’s finest hours. I haven’t read it in about a week because there have been too many crazy posts like that one. Try again in a couple weeks.
Darrell
Bullsh*t, identification of those most vulnerable and how to evacuate them was at the core of New Orleans disaster planning. I guess the photographic evidence of those hundreds of buses, buses explicitly mentioned in NOLA’s disaster plan, means that “they did the best they could”, huh? How about using the National guard along with NOLA police and volunteers to go door to door in the poorest areas? Nothing of the sort, not even sirens
Says it all: Mandatory evacuation was not declared by the Mayor until Sunday despite his stated prediction that the levees would fail flooding the city. And President Bush had to plead with the governor to call him, rather than she doing it on her own initiative.
Catestrophic incompetence on the part of state and local govt, and that is the #1 cause of death in this tragedy
John Cole
Boy- You guys don’t miss a fucking beat airbrushing history, do you? Bush ordered it into action.
Now, I will let you rocket scientists figure out why the Bataan and other assets were not ordered into theatre PRIOR to or DURING the hurricane, particularly navy assets.
And when the transcript of the press briefing THAT I ACTUALLY LISTENED TO by said Lt. Commander Kelly on CNN today becomes available, I will post it for you, sans redactions, in its totality, when he explains all of this.
You guys kill me. Steve Gilliard and the Daily Kos as the repositories of capital T Truth.
And Atrios is a vile jackhole worthy of any insults I heap out.
slide
Well, with all this bad news at home, how are things going in Iraq?:
.
DougJ
John, why don’t you and Duncan Black just get a room ;)
Narvy
Obviously a ploy by the liberal press to direct attention away from the schools we’re building in Baghdad.
Darrell
demimondian wrote:
If that is true, that would constitute an unbelievable oversight on the part of the mayor, a criminal oversight really if that is true, given NOLA’s disaster plan for hurricanes:
In section V under the NOLA mayor’s responsibilities:
Narvy
Darrell, is there any official, city, state, or federal, who acted well in this crisis? I can’t find one. I feel like Diogenes.
capelza
Darrell, not defending the city/mayor here, but a school district and it’s buses are not part of a Regional Transit Authority.
Here in my own little town, the school buses are owned by the county wide school district. The mayor has no authority over those buses. Just a clarification, not a justification.
John Cole
Here is one briefing from today:
slide
Me too, but I’m searching for a John Cole post that doesn’t contain personal insults?
His latest:
.
Darrell
It’s my experience that leftists are so dishonest, that the one’s most likely to be complaining about personal insults, are the very ones who have personally insulted others in the past
capelza
Darrell, I have to ask…what IS your life experience? All I know is that I have seen you comment on cleaning your ROOM.
John Cole
Slide
Look how you started out in this thread:
Again, failing to recognize the difference between a contingency plan and the legal mechanisms enabling the contingency plan. From there it went downhill.
Personally, my favorite was this comment, with all of the known facts, althought nothing warms my cockles like being called an apologist by people who do nothing but proclaim ‘the response was slow and Bush sucks’ as if it is some sort of substantive factual offering.
Then, we get nothing but Atrios’s personal opinions, and more complete nonsense from Steve Gilliard and Kevin Drum, echoed by Armando, and you expect me to treat you seriously?
I am surprised I have been as restrained as I have been. I am surprised I even bothered with you in the first place.
Tell me again- ‘The response was slow,” right?
Andrei
So wait… I claim the state/local officials obviously didn’t do enough to plan a full evacuation and you say bullshit then basically say the same thing.
Darrell… you’re head is so far up your ass you can’rt even see when someone is concedeing a point.
Andrei
So the follow up question seems to be: Why did it take to Friday from Tuesday to get the food and water in?
Darrell
Oh I think they had a plan all right, they just didn’t carry it out worth a damn. Keep in mind that Nagin is on record as having predicted/believed that the levee would fail and flood the city, yet he did so little to help evacuate his most vulnerable citizens
Andrei
At some point, you are going to admit that everyone is to blame in this.
The inadequate repsonse to get people evacuated obviosuly should be shouldered by state/local officials. They allowed people to stay in harms way. I’ll grant that, even though I think there’sa larger problem for all of us to recognize there. But most people are going to die in this tragedy from the lack of more urgent response time after the levee broke.
Let’s put it this way, in the case of a terrorist nuclear disaster, there’ll be NO WARNING. In which case, the entire thing will rest on the Federal repsonse time in conjunction with state/local officials to manage the disaster as it unfolds. At that point in time, do you seem it acceptable what this administration did last week in handling the unfolding crisis?
That is the question you need to ask yourself to get out this desire to call no accountability for the President and this adminsitration in what has happened in New Orleans.
Darrell
Depends on the amount of destruction. State and local govts, by and large, know better than Washington where relief is needed, how much is needed, with control of city first responders such as police and fire depts. For good reason, city and state govts are the ones we have traditionally counted on to initially respond to a disaster rather than Washington.
Personally, I think almost any other state besides Louisiana would have handled this disaster exponentially better than the corrupt and inept LA state and local officials. But because LA f*cked up so badly, we’re now hearing the catcalls for the Feds to take more authority (all authority?) away from those who typically are in the best position to know how to respond. FEMA hasn’t been around that long. States and municipalities have traditionally funded and organized their own response to disasters such as hurricanes and earthquakes. What’s with this incredible faith in the Federal govt?
Andrei
Un hunh… If you believe that a majority of our city officials are prepared to deal with the kind of devastation that New Orleans suffered, where the ENTIRE city is affected, you are seriously deluding yourself.
Andrei
Ah there we go… the self-absorbed, egomania that we’ve come to expect from the king of rightwing snark. You know what… maybe it’s high time you shut down comments so you can post all your righteous, obviously correct viewpoints about the world around you without having to tolerate us miscreants…
Given we are the same age, I know if you were daughter’s teacher, we’d have some serious problems. Are this much of an egoist to your students? Are you this righteous with them as well?
Sheesh.
Darrell
Yes, and he didn’t even declare mandatory evaluation until f*cking Sunday. Sunday. He didn’t move supplies and buses to higher ground, or use them to evacuate the most vulnerable, he didn’t ask the governor for national guard resources to go door to door. Hell he didn’t even use his own police for that. He didn’t even use sirens. He BELIEVED the city would flood and he didn’t do any of it. Could he have evacuated 100% of the poor? No. But he could have evacuated a helluva lot of them and pleaded with other parishes and cities to take them in who would have undoubtedly risen to the occasion as we’re seeing in Houston. He didn’t do any of it
Since he believed the levee would break, he should have been FRANTICALLY trying to evacuate people, but he didn’t
John Cole
Oh, fuck off, Andrei. find me anyone who puts up with as much shit from his commenters as I do. Find me a liberal who addresses his crazed conservative opposition more frequently and more fairly than I deal with your broadsides.
And second- my students A.) Are no where near as obnoxious ad/or stupid as you and B.) I am capable of recognizing the difference between people who are actively interested in meaningful conversation/discussion and people, like you, who have their story and are just sticking to it.
And given we are the same age, I wouldn’t want my kids anywhere near you in any capacity.
And again, just fuck off. How is that for arrogant and dismissive, you snide little shit, daring to question my capacity to do my job based on my reactions to your bullshit.
capelza
Darrell…do you have ANY idea whether he was frantic or not.
Really you don’t. He may well have been.
Darrell
They had his interview on Drudge radio last night. His voice was quite calm when predicting that the levees would fail and city would be underwater. Drudge said the video showed him eerily calm and unconcerned, sipping a Starbucks rather than someone frantically struggling to evacuate his citizens. The pictures of all those buses underwater, combined with his lack of effort to evacuate the most vulnerable reinforce the image Drudge described. Again, he initiated no door-to-door effort to get to those most vulnerable, no sirens, and he waited until 11th hour to issue mandatory evacuation. Unforgiveable
capelza
Drudge, the doyenne of the “developing” story. You really need to read more.
Stormy70
We are all the same age?!
Darrell
“Read”? What part of audio interview on the radio don’t you understand? But I suppose that’s about as substantive a response as you’re capable of
Kimmitt
Hey, if you saw the website, you’d see the lie on the third post down:
“I don’t think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees.”
HTH. HAND.
nyrev
I’ve been staying out of this, but for the love of God, Stormy’s an idiot. And John’s worried about people who can’t spell competent?
Now, back to your regularly scheduled argument. I’ll even start it off for you.
LEFTY: “The Government’s really fucked this up.”
RIGHTY: “Go blow Clinton, Bush-Hater.”
Narvy
Damn, you’ve caught me out. I don’t really feel like Diogenes.
Ignoring the errant apostrophe, do you have any empirical data to back that up?
Narvy
Omigod, Drudge has a radio program? I really didn’t know that.
Does he call it “Err America”?
Andrei
You’ve been fair? As near I can tell, you’re largely quiet or dismissive with repsonses to the liberals on this site over issues they disagree with you on, and often only vocal when you want to tell them off. Maybe whatever repsonse you’ve said in your head you’ve been fair, but I couldn’t tell you if you’ve been fair or not since you rarely repsond to a lot of legitimate points brought by “the others.”
Denial dones’t suit you. You’ve yet to engage people like me, but more like ppGaz, Mike S, and others, who have disagreed with you so how do you know when any of will be reasonable?
Tell you what… I dare you to be reasonable with me… try it. We’ll call a truce, and I’ll start ignoring Darrell and Stormy and simply address your points and you address mine. We won’t get into name calling… we’ll agree to disagree when recognize we understand each other’s points but don’t see eye to eye on it. I can drop the ranting and raving at a moment’s notice. I’m more than happy to, if you’ll engage me in that fashion. You’ve yet to bother, so I’m not sure you can make any claim as to how I’ll be if you tried it with me.
I didn’t question your capacity to do your job… I called you an egoist and righteous. That being the case, I know I’d have issues with if you behaved that way with daughter as one of your students.
That being said… I obviously pushed you over the tipping point, so in an effort to actually have you engage more of us in a reasonable manner, I apologize for a crude remark and will not make such a statement agin. It was base and way out of line.
And yes, I do mean that sincerely.
Narvy
Hey, wait a minute. I’m all geared up for a constructive dialogue with Stormy vis-a-vis my disrespect for principled conservatives and her predictions of my future behavior towards DougJ. Don’t make debating her sound so easy.
Narvy
Note to DougJ:
You’ve been very civil in this discussion. Aren’t you afraid of being banned?
David
Interesting, how all the comments so far have touched very little on the true mission of FEMA. As someone who previously worked for FEMA in Florida, I must state that when FEMA ‘comes to town’, they are “guests” of the state that requested assistance from the Federal Government. When FEMA arrives, they ask, “How can we help you?” FEMA provides aid, resources, direction, and coordination of all aspects of a disaster region’s governmental Emergency/Disaster contingency planning. While it is true that FEMA can assume total control of a disaster region’s resources, the authorit6y to do so must be requested and relinquished by the local government. If the local government doesn’t have their ducks in a row, FEMA cannot assume control and commence “Management” unless Marshall (FEDERAL) Law has been declared. FEMA DOES NOT CALL UP THE NATIONAL GUARD! The Governor of the affected state does! As far as New Orleans is concerned, just how could FEMA have transported and distributed any food or clothing (if available) without sufficient manpower (usually provided by a state’s National Guard or other designated forces)? Do all of the partisan “Bush Bashers” even care about a minutely addressed issue called “State’s Rights”? Each “State” is it’s own independent, autonomous country. All 50 countries pledge to pool their combined wills and resources together for a single purpose, hence the “UNITED STATES”. There seem to be too many hypocrites out there that want Big Brother to stay out of their business, until there’s a catastrophe that these said individuals can’t handle. Then, they’re the first to complain that Big Brother was not around when they needed him! Contemplate this for a while!
While I can say no one knows for sure, at this time, exactly what caused the fiasco in Louisiana after the hurricane. Maybe FEMA has some faults to assign blame to, but I feel after the whole truth is known, the blame can be spread out to just about every politician and government official involved. We need to wait until then to point fingers, then take the necessary action.
I’m not defending the President because he’s Republican or because he’s a Bush, on the contrary. I simply abhor it when people are blamed for things that are not their fault. If someone in FEMA screwed up, then the President needs accept responsibility. He should also fire those culpable or deal with them accordingly. The same goes for the Louisiana governor, right down the line!
Lastly, in response to Andrei’s comment on how to take care of so many displaced people in the event of a forced evacuation: Just how are these people being taken care of now? Please, think about the relevancy of your question. Where are they being housed now? How are they being fed now? Upon a forced evacuation, the situation is only temporary until resources can be provided for long term care, just like what is happening now! FEMA money provided mobile homes for the displaced in Florida! State governments provided extended unemployment for those who lost work! The American Red Cross and myriad other agencies provide all types of services (medical, food, employment, counseling, etc.). Nagin’s first commitment should have been to the welfare of his citizens, rather that sit around waiting for someone else to solve his city’s problems. Resources were available for the asking prior to the disaster. That’s all he needed to do in face of a massive emergency. You seem to have put little thought and research into your comments! If I were you, I’d not use the term “simple minded” too frequently. DUHH!
“Slide” needs to understand this, too.
slide
More of John Cole’s stirring arguments:
Well.. John Cole is consistant if nothing else.. lots and lots of personal invective, insults and disparaging remarks about those he disagrees with. But, can you blame him? Being an apologist for Bush has got to be rather stressful. A most difficult postion to defend with all the information we have learned about the pathetic response of Bush and his miserable failings as a leader. I guess if I had such an undefensible position I would be flailing about and insulting people instead of actully discussing the issues at hand.
John, you’re do KNOW that very few people, even on the right, agree with the absurd position you are taking on this don’t you? You’re not that much in total denial are you?
Oh, and to save you the trouble, I know you are going to deny you are an APOLOGIST and you’ll point to all your wonderful comments attacking Bush. But, I figure as long as you can label me and call me names I feel no compunction to give you the bennefit of the doubt. And quite frankly, apologist is probably the least offensive description I can use based on your rather silly comments.
slide
oh, and John about the Bataan, no one is disputing they used their helicopters early on but there is a lot more that they could have been utilized for as this article in the Chicago Tribune documents:
.
Narvy
The points you make have shown up in a few places here, and I don’t question what you’re saying. But does this really absolve FEMA’s performance after whatever required protocols were executed? And is it a good thing for the federal government to say their hands are tied because the governor is a recalcitrant idiot? I would like to think that in the face of a catastrophe, if it became apparent that the state was not going to act appropriately and quickly, the President would declare martial law and get things moving. The governor can be impeached after rescue operations are done.
Narvy
Sorry, David, I overlooked this
when I typed my previous post. This is absolutely true, and I have made the same assertion in another post.
Darrell
tsk, tsk, slide, I guess you haven’t heard the news that your leftie talking point marching orders have been shredded to pieces
John Cole
First off, ‘Slide,” you really do think I am stupid, don;t you. I know you are Joe Albanese, so quit pretending otherwise. I mean, I thought it wascute at first, but really. You are aware that this site has your ip address up next to each comment, aren’t you?
Second, you don’t even know what my position is. You have some sort of evil Republican position you are arguing against, but it s clear that you have not read anything I have written, or at least not comprehended it.
I don;t think everything went perfectly, but I most certainly don;t think everything has been a complete and total failure as some of you would like to pretend. Really, all I have learned isthat a great number of people on the left and the right have far greater expectations from the government, the military, and first responders than they should, as well as little or no working knowledge of the military, little or no understanding of geography, and a wholly unrealistic perception of what a disaster are really is and how plans really work under fire.
Andre- Fine. We will both tone it down a notch.
Narvy- I am not banning people. Jeebus.
Darrell
Simpleton. No realization of the implications of the Federal government forcibly usurping the power from state and local officials.
slide
David says:
Huh? lol… you gotta be kidding?
Listen, I know the talking points for the apologists have been handed out by Rove but this is getting very silly. Here perhaps this will help:
Her letter to the President:
.
Now after the Governor’s letter. . .
The ROVE strategy to try and shift blame to the local authorities ain’t going to hold water my dear apologist friends. The Governor did exactly what she was supposed to do, and the Federal government failed miserably in carrying out their OWN plan.
Narvy
For heaven’s sake John, it was joke. Predicated on the presumably humorous idea that only uncivil people post here. Jeebus indeed.
Stormy70
It is not a red herring, it is the Governor who calls up the National Guard. A President that came in and wrested power from a sitting governor would be up on impeachment charges so fast his head would spin. The entire country would freak out about the usurpation of state power. Bush was a governor for two terms, he knows the rules. He did deal with the Del Rio floods when he was governor, and he knows how the governor was supposed to act.
Narvy
It’s never been done before? Like in the school integration battles of the ’50s? And if the implications are so dire, why does the President have the authority at all?
People are drowning, looters are looting, sociopaths are shooting at people and vehicles. What are the implications of that? I thought that circumstance like those, with a local government failing to act to meet them, might justify usurpation of state and local power. But I guess that’s pretty simplistic.
Narvy
Yeah, I remember Eisenhower’s impeachment very well.
slide
John of course I know you have my IP address but I re-evaluated our previous flame wars and perhaps came to the conclusion that I may have been partialy to blame so I wanted to start fresh and just keep it on the subject at hand and not make it personal. And if you look at my comments as slide I never attacked you. Your arguments maybe, but not you. Never called you names. Never insulted your intelligence. Never questioned your motivations. Unfortunatly, as others have observed, it doesn’t matter with you. You still find it necessary to try and belittle those that disagree with you.
Not a very appealing characteristic. But I did want to find out if it was something I brought on myself by how I responded to you. I now know. It aint me John.
So, this is the deal, I will treat you as I feel I am treated. Tear apart my arguments (you did fairly well with Bataan thing), show me the errors of my thinking (difficult though it will be) but don’t question my motivations or honesty unless you wish your’s questioned. I belive 100% in what I say and its not bush bashing for the sake of bush bashing. I will applaud him when he does something I think is worthy of applause. Unfortunatly its been a long long time since that happened.
djc
Narvy,
What Ike did was enforce a ruling of the Supreme Court, in other words, he upheld the Constitution.
This same situation does not apply to LA.
Narvy
True enough, but if a SC order is required (I don’t think it is, but I’m not a Constitutional lawyer), Bush could have gotten one at least as quickly as he got the decision that gave him the election in 2000.
And the administration puts upholding the Constitution, like not going to war without a Congressional declaration of war, right up there at the top of the priority list. (Please don’t tell me that Congress gave the President the power to do whatever he wants in deciding to wage war. Abdication of Congressional responsibility doesn’t change the plain language of the Constitution, so dear to the hearts of strict constructionists.)
Narvy
Stormy –
I really want to talk with you about how you know what I think. I have to leave the forum now, but could we have a little tete-a-tete later in the week? Candlelight, a bottle of wine, duelling pistols?
summr
Summary of this excerpt from the LA governor’s August 26th letter: “state and local authorities are not going to be able to cope effectively with a disaster of this magnitude.”
What is the responsibility of the feds when they are told this plain as day? Blame local authorities for not coping effectively I guess. I’ve heard about NOLA police officers resigning and committing suicide. I don’t think that first responders who are personally affected by a disaster (losing their homes and loved ones) should be expected to hold out for five days after a disaster without substantial relief from FEMA.
jukeboxgrad
“about the Bataan, no one is disputing they used their helicopters early on’
Only if you define “early on” as roughly 48 hours after the first report of a levee breach. I am also assuming that “used” means airlifting survivors (as compared with flying around without rescuing anyone). Details here.
nyrev
Another dyed-in-the-wool liberal takes the President to task.
Darrell
“slide” = Joe Albanese posting under another name. How honest of you, you f*cking lowlife. What a coincidence that you happen to be a leftist
nyrev
You kiss your m*ther with that m*uth, Darrell?
More “leftists” who think that the Feds have something to answer for.
Newt Gingrich
Bill Frist
Kay Bailey Hutchison
jobiuspublius
jobiuspublius
jobiuspublius
jobiuspublius
jobiuspublius
Are you guys taking notes? This is clusterfucking at it’s finest. This is what your littl buddy Bob the Rebuilder in Chief is all about.
Rome Again
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I defer to DougJ as a pegmark for understanding my opinion of this whole thing. There’s plenty of blame to go around, but the Feds are part of the problem.
On a personal note to DougJ: Wow, I never knew you had it in you. You’re sounding so reasonable on this subject that I’m truly impressed, and amazed. Thanks!