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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Fiscal Insanity

Fiscal Insanity

by John Cole|  December 8, 20059:44 am| 93 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics, Politics, Republican Stupidity

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I like tax cuts as much as the next guy, but these folks are off their damned rocker:

The House passed three separate tax cuts yesterday and plans to approve a fourth today, trimming the federal revenue by $94.5 billion over five years — nearly double the budget savings that Republicans muscled through the House last month.

GOP leaders portray the tax bills — for the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast, affluent investors, U.S. troops serving in Iraq and taxpayers who otherwise would be hit by the alternative minimum tax — as vital to keeping the economy rolling.

“Our economic policies have done the trick,” said Rep. Deborah Pryce (R-Ohio). “We are in the middle of one of the strongest economies this country has ever seen.”

But some budget analysts say the flourish of tax cutting badly undermines the recent shows of fiscal discipline. Last month’s budget-cutting bill would save $50 billion over five years by imposing new fees on Medicaid recipients, trimming the food stamp rolls, squeezing student lenders and cutting federal child support enforcement.

Compare and contrast these actions with this report from the notoriously left-wing Heritage Foundation:

Federal budget projections consistently warn that America faces a future of unaffordable entitlement spending, deep federal debt, and economic stagna­tion unless lawmakers modernize runaway entitle­ment programs. This paper shows that the long-term budget picture may even be substantially worse than previously projected.

Specifically, a realistic budget projection shows that combined nominal Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid spending will double over the next decade. Adding in the costs of the war on terrorism, Hurri­cane Katrina, and other congressional spending pri­orities pushes total 2015 federal spending well past $4 trillion and the budget deficit to $873 billion—a level that could lead to harmful tax increases.

The 2006–2050 budget picture is even more dis­mal. Because of the cost of fully funding Social Secu­rity, Medicare, and Medicaid, leading long-term budget projections have calculated that federal spending will increase from the current 20 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) to a peacetime high of nearly 33 percent of GDP by 2050.

Tax cuts are not one of Heritage’s proscribed solutions to this mess. Neither was a trillion dollar drug company giveaway/entitlement program, either.

It is safe to say I sometimes sit around and ask myself- “WTF did I vote for and what did I get for my vote?”

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Reader Interactions

93Comments

  1. 1.

    neil

    December 8, 2005 at 9:54 am

    When we told you Republican devotion to tax cuts had nothing to do with the general welfare of the nation and that it was reckless and wasteful, you said we were shrill, irrational Bush haters and dismissed us out of hand.

    We are still waiting for our apologies from all of you.

  2. 2.

    John Cole

    December 8, 2005 at 9:58 am

    You will not be getting an apology from me. I still agree with many of the earlier tax cuts. I do not agree with the reckless spending.

  3. 3.

    demimondian

    December 8, 2005 at 10:01 am

    It is safe to say I sometimes sit around and ask myself- “WTF did I vote for and what did I get for my vote?”

    Do you really need an answer to that?

    You voted for someone who

    ran a series of election campaigns through lieshas always maintained a coterie of dishonest advisorshas created a completely fabulous (go look it up — it doesn’t mean what you think) image of himself
    Why are you surprised when you wind up with a would be Caesar instead of a would-be Cincinatus?

  4. 4.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:03 am

    Hey everyone. :)

    “Our economic policies have done the trick,” said Rep. Deborah Pryce (R-Ohio). “We are in the middle of one of the strongest economies this country has ever seen.”

    You know, Howard Dean can spout out all the crazy shit he wants, and I still take him/the democrats more seriously than these people. And btw, what happened to spin? Are folks just straight up lying now?

    I hope the democratic party in Ohio asks ohioans if they agree with rep Pryce, that this is one of the “strongest economies this country has ever seen”.

  5. 5.

    Geek, Esq.

    December 8, 2005 at 10:04 am

    Because if you vote Democratic, Osama bin Laden will personally come to your home and kill your children.

  6. 6.

    Mr Furious

    December 8, 2005 at 10:04 am

    Holy crap! Was I channeling the Republicans when I typed this last night?

    The AMT is a straight-up con now. The Republicans are using it to continue to scoop money out of people it was never intended to effect, while using it as an example of how unfair and overtaxed everybody is, AND to demonstrate how overly complex the tax code is. It’s ALL bullshit. All that needs to be done is re-index the AMT for inflation. Problem solved.

    [From a thread on the AMT last night at Otto Man’s place.]

    Solving the problem of the AMT hitting unintended targets is a simple as adjusting for inflation. That would ensure that the wealthy loophole-users would be paying it, not some mythical “military family.”

    You are right John, these people are fucking crazy. When will it stop?

  7. 7.

    ppGaz

    December 8, 2005 at 10:09 am

    “WTF did I vote for and what did I get for my vote?”

    A very lively blog?

  8. 8.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:09 am

    Isn’t there some kind of idea in the works that would make congress show they can afford to spend x amount of money before they get to spend it? Pay as you go, I think it’s called? What’s that all about? Seems like a fantastic idea.

  9. 9.

    Mr Furious

    December 8, 2005 at 10:13 am

    Just wait for the conflation that military families are being unfairly targetted by the AMT. Sort of like the new “family farms decimated by the death tax”… Or like using 9/11 and Iraq in the same sentence…

    We need a forest fire on Capitol hill.

  10. 10.

    cd6

    December 8, 2005 at 10:13 am

    I just thank God we are reeling in the fiasco that is the school lunch program. Some middle class kids were getting free lunch? NOT ON OUR WATCH, MISTER

  11. 11.

    SomeCallMeTim

    December 8, 2005 at 10:14 am

    If you separate the Republican Party into those belonging to Bush the father and those to Bush the son, you can see that the only party remaining for HW Republicans is the Democratic Party, specifically (and I admit I shudder a little to say this) the Kos Democratic Party. I wish the party as a whole would make a move on these people. Hell, if we got enough of them, we might be able to push out the DLC Southern fucks.

  12. 12.

    Mr Furious

    December 8, 2005 at 10:16 am

    “…what did I get for my vote?”

    You got a $300 bribe, and a giant-ass deficit. The guy living up on the hill got a hundred grand worth of tax relief.

    That’s the Republican motto. Why are you having difficulty understanding this John? Don’t be obtuse. You’re either an idiot, a sucker or a millionaire. You choose.

  13. 13.

    Cyrus

    December 8, 2005 at 10:21 am

    Did I miss something? When did this happen?

    But some budget analysts say the flourish of tax cutting badly undermines the recent shows of fiscal discipline[emphasis mine].

    They keep on using that phrase, I do not think it means what they think it means.

  14. 14.

    Steve S

    December 8, 2005 at 10:21 am

    So let me give you my economic wisdom for the day. Which will, of course, be ignored because you’re all a bunch of fricking Republican moonbats.

    Tax cuts… tax hikes… within margins of reasonableness have NO impact on the economy. That is, a hike from 30 to 33% has little impact. A hike from 30% to 90% would, definately.

    What DOES have an impact is uncertainty of changing rules. That is, people will change their behavior if they think the tax law is going to change. Examples… Lose the tax credits for fuel efficient cars, and you’ll have a rush as people try to buy those cars to take advantage of it before it goes away. Lose the luxury car tax, and people will wait until the tax is gone before buying a luxury car. Change capital gains, and people will wait or rush to take advantage of the tax most favorable to them.

    This is why after Clinton increased taxes in 1993 to fix the budget, the economy didn’t go into the toilet despite the moonbat Republican claims. However, because the laws remained stable, by 1995 the economy improved.

    Similarly, with Bush fucking around with tax rates in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, the economy hasn’t been doing so great. Too much uncertainty. Companies are waiting, people are waiting. Wait and see… don’t trust the Fed, they fuck around too much. Finally for 2005 the rules begin to stabilize and there’s no big news of change and the economy comes back up slightly.

    I don’t have an economics degree from Harvard, or U of Chicago, or any place. In fact I dropped out of Econ 101 because it was boring.

    But the basic fact is… The markets prefer stability. Anything else, they can work around. Tax law is all about directing people to work around in certain ways.

    The Republican tax plan is all about rewarding income received without work. i.e. interest and dividends. If you work for a living, too bad, they don’t care about you.

  15. 15.

    Jon H

    December 8, 2005 at 10:23 am

    Simple, John. You don’t make enough for the GOP to consider you a constituent. Below a certain net worth, you’re just a prop or a tool as far as they’re concerned.

  16. 16.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:23 am

    I

  17. 17.

    Steve S

    December 8, 2005 at 10:23 am

    I just thank God we are reeling in the fiasco that is the school lunch program. Some middle class kids were getting free lunch? NOT ON OUR WATCH, MISTER

    Interesting… because they could care less about the billions upon billions being misappropriated in defense and particularly Iraq reconstruction.

    That’s what makes the Republicans different from the Democrats. When Senator Truman found out some defense contractors were stiffing the US Govt in 1942, he went door to door to observe and report on it.

    The Federal government isn’t your cash cow, and you ought not be sucking at it’s teat. It’s there to do the work of the people… all the people.

  18. 18.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:26 am

    Damn, I guess the comments section doesn’t like hearts. Ok, so, I *heart* google.

    Pay as you go wasn’t exactly what I thought it was, as it doesn’t seem to extend to all spending, but it still seems like a wise thing to do.

    “The so-called pay-as-you-go measure would have required Congress to cut other spending or raise other taxes if it voted for tax cuts or spending increases for benefit programs such as Social Security and Medicare. Republican leaders feared that could make it significantly harder to pass new tax cuts or extend current ones.”

    usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-03-30-budget-usat_x.htm

  19. 19.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:34 am

    Speaking of free lunch, and the question “why are you a democrat” or “why are you a republican”, I grew up with free lunch, free breakfast, too! If my school didn’t have free breakfast, I probably wouldn’t have had breakfast. I think it kind of ties into what we saw in NO as well, if only as far as seeing so many folks shocked that we have such desperate poverty in OUR COUNTRY! Well, we do, and more or less, or on average, or whatever the PC way to say it is, the democratic party seems to understand this more than the republican party does. So, basically, that’s why I leaned democratic when I began to become aware of politics. Then of course there’s the issues list that comes after, like the environment, ect, ect, ect.

  20. 20.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:43 am

    Interesting… because they could care less about the billions upon billions being misappropriated in defense and particularly Iraq reconstruction.

    A-freaking-men. I love how we lose a billion here and a billion there and it’s like, “eh, shrug”, but it’s food stamps or whatever that’s putting a strain on the country.

    I always make an attempt to be kind of moderate in my temperament, especially when posting here, but I’m in one of those moods where I’m just..fuck these people.

  21. 21.

    Jorge

    December 8, 2005 at 10:45 am

    John,
    The plan is to bankrupt the system and destroy every social aid program since the depression. That is why they created a trillion dollar give away to the Pharm industry. Others have made the analogy of the mafia plan of taking over a business, running up a huge debt on its tab and then filing for bankruptcy.

    Again, if you were half as skeptical about Bush as you are about everyone from the Nobel Prize committee to Cindy Sheehan you’d see what is going on with the current Rep leadership.

  22. 22.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 10:46 am

    Ugh.

    Gov’t spending is quickly becoming my #1 issue. If only there were a party that was serious about cutting it.

    The scary thing is, the Dems would be so much worse.

    The guy living up on the hill got a hundred grand worth of tax relief.

    “Got?” That’s like saying he should be grateful for a thief who robs him every year, because this year the thief stole a little less. Who cares, he’s rich, right? It’s not like he earned his money, or owns it. It’s all the government’s money, we just “get” whatever they deign not to take.

    If my school didn’t have free breakfast, I probably wouldn’t have had breakfast.

    Sure, why not have the gov’t give you free food, free housing, free healthcare, free TV, free everything you want! It’s the compassionate thing to do, right? It’s not like parents have any responsibility to feed their kids.

  23. 23.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 10:53 am

    The plan is to bankrupt the system and destroy every social aid program since the depression.

    Sheer moonbattery. That would result in the GOP not winning an election for 50 years, and the Dems would promptly re-install them all anyway, and raise taxes to pay for it.

    Believe it or not, Republicans accept some level of social programs and progressive taxation. The top 5% of income earners pay over half the income tax. We had a higher percentage of people on welfare in 1994 than in the Great Depression. All most Republicans want is for things not to get out of hand.

  24. 24.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:53 am

    I’ve lost track, is TallDave a parody? So I know if I should feel sick or not.

  25. 25.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 10:54 am

    Looking for parody? Check the mirror.

  26. 26.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:57 am

    How so?

  27. 27.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 10:57 am

    MI, you really think there’s “terrible poverty” in this country? You don’t know what those words mean. Billions of people in the world live on less than two dollars a day. They would love to have America’s “terrible poverty.”

  28. 28.

    Ancient Purple

    December 8, 2005 at 10:58 am

    Sure, why not have the gov’t give you free food, free housing, free healthcare, free TV, free everything you want! It’s the compassionate thing to do, right? It’s not like parents have any responsibility to feed their kids.

    Right, Dave. Because we all know that poverty doesn’t exist in America.

    Jesus is so proud of you.

  29. 29.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 10:59 am

    In all fairness, you mocked free breakfast programs for poor kids, so it’s not exactly like I’m out of line inquiring about your sincerity.

  30. 30.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:01 am

    Because we all know that poverty doesn’t exist in America

    Damn right it doesn’t. We have 5% unemployment. I have never met an able-bodied person who couldn’t feed, clothe and house himself if they were willing to work. Poverty in this country is 99% self-inflicted.

  31. 31.

    Pb

    December 8, 2005 at 11:02 am

    Here’s what you voted for in 2004:

    keep the taxes low, don’t increase the scope of the federal government, keep regulations down, legal reform, a health- care policy that does not empower the federal government but empowers individuals, and an energy plan that will help us become less dependent on foreign sources of energy.
    […]
    We’ll stay on the hunt on Al Qaida. We’ll deny sanctuary to these terrorists. We’ll make sure they do not end up with weapons of mass destruction. It’s the great nexus. The great threat to our country is that these haters end up with weapons of mass destruction.

    And in 2000:

    I want to empower people in their own lives. I also want to go to Washington to get some positive things done. It is going to require a new spirit. A spirit of cooperation. It will require the ability of a Republican president to reach out across the partisan divide and to say to Democrats, let’s come together to do what is right for America. It’s been my record as Governor of Texas, it will be how I conduct myself if I’m fortunate enough to earn your vote as President of the United States. I want to finally get something done on Medicare. I want to make sure prescription drugs are available for all seniors. And I want seniors to have additional choices when it comes to choosing their health care plans. I want to finally get something done on Social Security. I want to make sure the seniors have the promise made will be a promise kept, but I want younger workers to be able to manage some of their own money, some of their own payroll taxes in the private sector under certain guidelines to get a better rate of return on your own money. I want to rebuild our military to keep the peace. I want to have a strong hand when it comes to the United States in world affairs. I don’t want to try to put our troops in all places at all times. I don’t want to be the world’s policeman, I want to be the world’s peacemaker by having a military of high morale and a military that is well-equipped. I want anti-ballistic missile systems to protect ourselves and our allies from a rogue nation that may try to hold us hostage or blackmail our allies and friends. I want to make sure the education system fulfills its hope and promise. I’ve had a strong record of working with Democrats and Republicans in Texas to make sure no child is left behind. I understand the limited role of the federal government, but it could be a constructive role when it comes to reform, by insisting that there be a strong accountability systems. My intentions are to earn your vote and earn your confidence.

    I guess you know how that one went. Now tell me: what made you trust him again?

  32. 32.

    Steve

    December 8, 2005 at 11:02 am

    Wow, I like how the simple idea of “free breakfast for schoolkids” turns into “free everything you want!” It’s just proof of what a wide gulf there is between regular, common-sense Americans and the true “I’ve got mine” wingnuts. No wonder the GOP has to rely on scary visions of Osama to win elections these days, because they sure ain’t winning them on domestic policy.

    One thing that hasn’t been mentioned in the comments is that these tax cuts were originally supposed to be part of the same bill as the big spending cuts that were passed a few weeks back. But the Republicans realized it wouldn’t look good, putting it mildly, to cut taxes on the rich and cut food stamps in the same bill. So they broke it up into two bills and sold the food stamp cuts as the “Deficit Reduction Act.” It will surprise no one that the combined impact of the two bills is not to reduce the deficit, but to increase it.

    They get away with this sleight of hand because very few people have the time to track the nuances of the budget. How many people outside the blogosphere noticed when this year’s budget left out the Iraq war altogether, just to make it look like we’re getting closer to a balanced budget? Heck, how many people inside the blogosphere even remember that? The answer is that we need to elect more responsible people, people who understand that massive tax cuts just mean your kids pay for the deficit instead of you.

    One of the reasons this blog is popular is that John is a pretty good barometer for where the reasonable Republicans are at. When even John is like “whoa, these tax cuts have just gone too far!” that’s a sure sign that the train has gone way off the tracks.

  33. 33.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 11:03 am

    TallDave, well, you’re right, I stand corrected. Everyone in the US, even those with the least among us, is better off than anyone in a third world country.

  34. 34.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:04 am

    In all fairness, you mocked free breakfast programs for poor kids

    It’s just the whole sickening abdication of responsibilities to the gov’t that makes me mad. It is not the gov’ts job to raise, feed, house or clothe kids. And the more the gov’t does it, the more people have a sense of entitlement about it.

  35. 35.

    stickler

    December 8, 2005 at 11:04 am

    The parody writes itself:

    Gov’t spending is quickly becoming my #1 issue. If only there were a party that was serious about cutting it.

    The scary thing is, the Dems would be so much worse.

    Hey, TallDave, were you still in junior high during the 90s? Because I seem to remember a President, not so long ago, who managed to get us $200 billion surpluses. And he had a (D) after his name. Evidence that you are either ignorant as a box of endwrenches, or you’re lying.

    As far as John Cole goes, I can’t read minds. I don’t know what he thought he was going to get by voting Republican in 2000 or 2004. I voted for Bush in 2000, and I sure didn’t get what I’d expected. But by 2004, it was absolutely clear to everyone concerned that voting for the GOP would mean more of the same. That’s what we got. What kind of moron would be surprised by this?

  36. 36.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:07 am

    stickler,

    Good Lord, are you really that ignorant? Clinton didn’t cut spending. The GOP shut down the gov’t ocer the issue!

  37. 37.

    Ancient Purple

    December 8, 2005 at 11:09 am

    Damn right it doesn’t. We have 5% unemployment. I have never met an able-bodied person who couldn’t feed, clothe and house himself if they were willing to work. Poverty in this country is 99% self-inflicted.

    Spoken like the man who wouldn’t dare go to “that part of town” because of all “those” people.

    Not to worry, Dave. I am sure you will tell us about how they can all get jobs at Wal-Mart and make minimum wage. Of course, you will then complain about how – since Wal-Mart doesn’t give decent health insurance benefits – “those” people are on the public dime getting Medicare. (It being all their fault for not working hard enough and not Wal-Mart’s fault at all for treating their employees like servile drones.)

    But, in the spirit of the season, Dave, let me provide you with your retort to me: “Are there no workhouses? Are there no prisons?”

  38. 38.

    John Cole

    December 8, 2005 at 11:13 am

    Stickler- Pretty clearly, the war was my #1 issue in 2004.

  39. 39.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:15 am

    stickler,

    LOL I have to admire your gall. Only a true moonbat could not only ignore the fact the Dems spent the entire 1990s castigating the GOP for “cruel” and “heartless” spending cuts, but actually claim Clinton was responsible for them.

    That level of disconnect from reality deserves some kind of recognition. I applaud you, sir.

  40. 40.

    Blue Neponset

    December 8, 2005 at 11:16 am

    Poverty in this country is 99% self-inflicted.

    I am guessing this is hyperbole. If it isn’t, I would like you to tell me how poor children pick their parents.

  41. 41.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 11:21 am

    Alright, sorry for questing your seriousness. How about this..You’re not heartless, and I’m not lazy. Let’s just agree that we grew up in two very different worlds within the same country, and those experiences shaped the way we look at things today as adults. You follow your conscience and it leads you there, I follow mine and it leads me here. I’m certainly not in any position, nor really is anyone, to make judgments about which is right or which is wrong, it just is what it is.

  42. 42.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:21 am

    Spoken like the man who wouldn’t dare go to “that part of town” because of all “those” people.

    Hell, I grew up poor. I know “those” people. I’ve lived in “that part of town.” Some of us worked hard, got an education, and moved to better places. Some didn’t. Their choice. If you don’t want to work at WalMart your whole life, there are a quite a few paths to better jobs.

    I don’t mind Medicare, at its current level. I just don’t want it to get a whole lot bigger.

  43. 43.

    Pb

    December 8, 2005 at 11:22 am

    Yes TallDave, just like those true moonbats over at The Cato Institute. Why do they hate America so much?

  44. 44.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:24 am

    Poverty in this country is 99% self-inflicted.

    I am guessing this is hyperbole. If it isn’t, I would like you to tell me how poor children pick their parents

    OK, let me amend then: Adult poverty is 99% self-inflicted, and child poverty is 99% inflicted by parents who are part of the first 99%.

  45. 45.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 11:25 am

    Stickler- Pretty clearly, the war was my #1 issue in 2004.

    I’m not sure that’s really clear, although except maybe through a process of elimination heh. But I was actually just thinking about how you don’t really talk about Iraq that much…or maybe that’s just me not paying attention?

  46. 46.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:25 am

    Pb,

    I didn’t say Bush was better at cutting spending than Clinton (I think I made it clear I was disappointed in today’s GOP class), I said Clinton wasn’t responsible for cutting spending.

  47. 47.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:26 am

    MI,

    Fair enough. I wasn’t trying to say you personally were lazy.

  48. 48.

    Shygetz

    December 8, 2005 at 11:28 am

    TallDave–Good point. The GOP did shut down the government. But did they do it because of a true concern over fiscal responsibility, or in a cynical attempt to stick it to a popular president? Well, now that the GOP controls all three branches of the government, we can look at their actions since then…hmmm. Yep, cynicism. The GOP is about fiscal irresponsibility in favor of those who earn their money without work (investment income) and corporations. You still have no real reason to believe that the Democratic party would be worse fiscally than the Republicans.

  49. 49.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 11:30 am

    My mom worked harder than pretty much anyone I’ve ever known. Between her three jobs, there wasn’t a lot of time for night school, although Lord knows if it had been possible, she would have made it happen. Of course you can go way back and say she shouldn’t have been irresponsible in having me in the first place, which would be a fair point, but since it means I wouldn’t be here, it’s one I’ll have to take exception with. :p

  50. 50.

    Pb

    December 8, 2005 at 11:31 am

    TallDave,

    Well you’d be wrong there too. Clinton did propose spending cuts, and to the extent that they were enacted, he was repsonsible for them. To the extent that they weren’t, the Congress was responsible for not enacting them. And to the extent that the Congress enacted greater spending cuts, they were responsible for them. etc., etc. But I was responding to your statement about what only a “true moonbat” would say.

  51. 51.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:33 am

    Shygetz,

    Oh, I agree totally, the current GOP class is not willing to cut and its irresponsible of them, though again I think its laughable to talk about favoring the rich when the top 5% pays 50% of all taxes. Newt Gingrich was the last leader who was willing to fight for spending cuts.

    You still have no real reason to believe that the Democratic party would be worse fiscally than the Republicans.

    I know they will raise spending more than the GOP. They don’t even try to deny that. Hell, they campaign on it.

  52. 52.

    Blue Neponset

    December 8, 2005 at 11:35 am

    OK, let me amend then: Adult poverty is 99% self-inflicted, and child poverty is 99% inflicted by parents who are part of the first 99%.

    It is hard for me to believe that you actually mean that, but I will take your work for it. Thanks for answering my question.

  53. 53.

    TallDave

    December 8, 2005 at 11:36 am

    Pb,

    LOL Again, it’s unbelievable that anyone with a memory of the 1990s budget fights would make the claim the Clinton wanted to cut spending. That was 100% the GOP’s idea. Clinton only acceded to them because the GOP controlled Congress after 1994.

    Remember welfare reform? Vetoed at least twice by Clinton. Remember the Balanced Budget Amendment? Voted down by Dems.

  54. 54.

    Marcos

    December 8, 2005 at 11:37 am

    Bush voters:
    Money vote = tax cuts
    God vote = abortion, gays marriage
    War vote = support war president
    Fear vote = protection from terrorists

  55. 55.

    Perry Como

    December 8, 2005 at 11:40 am

    It’s just the whole sickening abdication of responsibilities to the gov’t that makes me mad. It is not the gov’ts job to raise, feed, house or clothe kids.

    Indeed. It’s the government’s job to spend $1 billion a week to build schools and provide lunches for kids in another country.

  56. 56.

    Nikki

    December 8, 2005 at 11:44 am

    Indeed. It’s the government’s job to spend $1 billion a week to build schools and provide lunches for kids in another country.

    And don’t forget, in this truly “capitalist” society, bail out the airlines and the auto industry, relieve corporations of their pension responsibilities and enact any other corporate handouts it can find.

  57. 57.

    Shygetz

    December 8, 2005 at 11:46 am

    I know they will raise spending more than the GOP. They don’t even try to deny that. Hell, they campaign on it.

    Actually, it depends on the Democrat. Those who want a short timetable for pulling out of Iraq are probably pulling for a decrease in spending.

    Besides, as you well know, spending is only part of the equation. Another big part is tax cuts, and the Dems are way ahead of the GOP in that arena.

    I think its laughable to talk about favoring the rich when the top 5% pays 50% of all taxes. Newt Gingrich was the last leader who was willing to fight for spending cuts.

    But tell us, TallDave, since you seem to have the stats right in front of you. If the top 5% pay 50% of the taxes, what percentage of wealth do they control? After the hefty cuts on taxes for unearned income, I’d really like to know (and please source your statistics).

  58. 58.

    Perry Como

    December 8, 2005 at 11:48 am

    We are providing schools lunches over there, so we don’t have to provide them over here.

  59. 59.

    Pb

    December 8, 2005 at 11:49 am

    TallDave,

    You made reference to the GOP shutting down the government, I believe that was a bit later. Do you remember what they were proposing after that, when we actually were running surpluses instead of deficits? Yeah, didn’t think so.

  60. 60.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    December 8, 2005 at 12:04 pm

    Do tax cuts stimulate the economy?–Yes, they do.

    But anyone with even some knowledge in economics will tell you that you that you don’t cut taxes AND goto war. It causes the deficit to balloon, thus eventually severly damaging the economy.

    I’m all for tax cuts as well, but the foolishness of cutting taxes while at war is unforgivable.

  61. 61.

    Stormy70

    December 8, 2005 at 12:05 pm

    The House voted 414 to 4 to spare 17 million individuals and families from paying the alternative minimum tax next year. Democratic Reps. Jerry F. Costello (Ill.), Collin C. Peterson (Minn.), Martin O. Sabo (Minn.) and Robert C. “Bobby” Scott (Va.) voted against the measure.

    That is an overwhelming margin of victory there, if I’m not mistaken.

    I like tax cuts. That’s just the way I roll.

    Private groups do more for people than government ever will.

  62. 62.

    Jorge

    December 8, 2005 at 12:11 pm

    Hey Talldave,

    When my mother was 13 the government of her country, Cuba, was overtaken by a communist dictator. She came to the states the following year. She started working right away and entually got her GED. She had 3 sons with a man who was on his way to a Master’s degree to be a clinical pychologist. Unfortunately, he developed schizophrenia which made him very dangerous to be around. She divorced him.

    And you know what – you’d be surprised how many of my mom’s single mother friends came from situations in which they either had to leave an abusive relationship or were left by scumbags. And by your book, it seems to be the single working mothers and their children who are the one’s who primarily receive the benefits that are the problem. Becase they choose to live in poverty. And cutting these benfits does nothing to stop men from shirking off their responsibility as fathers.

    With welfare, school lunches, etc, the government is doing what it can to help fight the symptoms of greater social ill. I know that the exception of the lazy bum, the unwed mother popping out kids to get government checks, and welfare cheats are the poster boys for the conservative view of entitlement programs but the grim reality is that the vast majority of those programs go to help working single mothers and their children who have been adandoned by their father. When you cut those programs that is who you hurt – you don’t hurt the absentee dads.

  63. 63.

    Shygetz

    December 8, 2005 at 12:12 pm

    Private groups do more for people than government ever will.

    Private groups do more for themselves than government ever will (unless the government is Republican, and the private group is a bankrupt airline…)

  64. 64.

    Pb

    December 8, 2005 at 12:14 pm

    The Disenfranchised Voter,

    Tax cuts *can* stimulate the economy, but the net result may not be sufficient or wise. At least, that’s quite clear if you believe in the Laffer Curve (or if you don’t). Also, I think it’s clear that lower tax rates haven’t generated sufficient revenue to offset expenditures, based on our recent record of deficits under the current administration.

  65. 65.

    Pb

    December 8, 2005 at 12:15 pm

    Stormy70,

    Yeah, no one really likes the AMT as it stands, nowadays. Not a bad idea, but definitely a bad implementation.

  66. 66.

    Jorge

    December 8, 2005 at 12:16 pm

    Hey,
    Who doesn’t like tax cuts? The problem with tax cuts is that they have to come alongside spending reductions. I’m a balanced budget Democrat. It seems to work just fine for the states.

  67. 67.

    Jorge

    December 8, 2005 at 12:19 pm

    Shygetz,
    Some private groups do quite a bit for others as well. They include everyone from the Red Cross to the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission board. But those private groups will never be able to do more than suplement the work of governments.

  68. 68.

    MI

    December 8, 2005 at 12:19 pm

    Thanks, Jorge. You articulated what I was trying to express.

  69. 69.

    Stormy70

    December 8, 2005 at 12:21 pm

    Medicare and Social Security needs to be cut back hard. I know I’ll never see a penny of the money I put in, so I am planning accordingly, while I’m in my thirties. Are Democrats really ready to cut any of the huge programs?

  70. 70.

    Ancient Purple

    December 8, 2005 at 12:26 pm

    Private groups do more for people than government ever will.

    Right. Because the National Parks system and the Interstate system are dismal failures.

  71. 71.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    December 8, 2005 at 12:27 pm

    Are Democrats really ready to cut any of the huge programs?

    Are any Republicans willing to make cuts the biggest “program”, which is by far so-called “defense” spending. I’m sure there are Democrats that are willing to do so, I doubt there are any Republicans.

    The “defense” budget is what needs to be addressed. You could cut the budget in half and we would still spend more money on “defense” than any other country.

    Our “defense” budget is aboslutely out of control.

  72. 72.

    Stormy70

    December 8, 2005 at 12:31 pm

    Providing for the National defense is in the US Constitution. Medicare, Social Security, Dept. of Education, the NEA and all the rest don’t seem to be in there. I don’t mind spending on defense, since it keeps me safe.

  73. 73.

    Pb

    December 8, 2005 at 12:40 pm

    In the Constitution: “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    Covers quite a bit, actually.

  74. 74.

    John S.

    December 8, 2005 at 12:42 pm

    This thread is a barrel full of laughs.

    Thanks for the amusing repartee Tall Dave and Stormy.

  75. 75.

    Richard Bottoms

    December 8, 2005 at 12:46 pm

    >Private groups do more for people than government ever wil

    Yes, I like how those private groups freed the slaves and ended Jim Crow 100 years later.

    Oh, wait a minute…

  76. 76.

    jg

    December 8, 2005 at 12:56 pm

    Medicare, Social Security, Dept. of Education, the NEA and all the rest don’t seem to be in there. I don’t mind spending on defense, since it keeps me safe.

    But you have a problem spending to educate (even minimally) your fellow US citzens? Don’t you think a gov’t that believes all people have a right to life . liberty and happiness ought to provide an environment where that can happen? What good is a gov’t that sits by and lets citizens die of starvation or sickness?

    Gov’t programs get abused. No dount about it. So we shouldn’t offer anything? Not everyone abuses the system, they get fucked?

  77. 77.

    ppGaz

    December 8, 2005 at 1:02 pm

    I’ve lost track, is TallDave a parody? So I know if I should feel sick or not.

    He is, but he is probably the only person on earth who doesn’t realize it.

  78. 78.

    Don

    December 8, 2005 at 1:04 pm

    “Pretty clearly, the war was my #1 issue in 2004.”

    Well of course, we can all see why you voted for the candidate who wanted to do more of the same rather than the one who wanted more of the same! Are you really claiming that there was a notable disparity between the Kerry position and the Bush position on how the Iraq policy would go forward? The only difference between the two was that Bush has demonstrated incompetence in handling it and Kerry may or may not be a bumbling boob of the same caliber.

    If I was one of the republican decision-makers and reading this blog I would be cackling with glee since we could clearly keep fucking you over and you’ll never put your vote where your mouth is. The most damning thing I’ve seen out of you on the matter is that you’ll “never vote for Bush again.” Gosh, strong words about that constitutionally prohibited action, that.

    Golly, I sure hate these freedom-stifling religious-nutbags who can’t legislate their way out of paper bag but at least they’re not DEMOCRATS!

  79. 79.

    Larry

    December 8, 2005 at 1:06 pm

    The plan is to bankrupt the system and destroy every social aid program since the depression. That is why they created a trillion dollar give away to the Pharm industry. Others have made the analogy of the mafia plan of taking over a business, running up a huge debt on its tab and then filing for bankruptcy.

    Step-by-stepped in GoodFellas — it’s called a Bust-Out.

    Here’s a story:

    New York City in the late 30’s…..

    A Wall Street swell buys a paper from the same vendor every morning for years, glances at the front page, tosses it in the trash. Finally the newsie asks what’s up?

    Swell: “I’m looking for a death notice.”
    Newsie: “But you never turn to the obituaries.”
    Swell: “It’ll be on the Front Page.”

  80. 80.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    December 8, 2005 at 1:07 pm

    I don’t mind spending on defense, since it keeps me safe.

    Oh really?

    Nondefense Spending

    One major source of pork-barrel spending in the military budget is the array of items that have nothing to do with defense. The FY97 DoD appropriations conference agreement includes numerous examples of nondefense spending.

    Nondefense Spending in DoD Budget

    * $1 million for the Harnett County School Board in Lillington, North Carolina

    * $3.4 million for medical research performed by “private-sector or nonfederal physicians who have used and will use the antibacterial treatment method based on the excretion of dead and decaying spherical bacteria”

    * $1 million for an off-island leave program for Johnston Atoll employees

    * $8 million for mitigation of environmental impacts on Indian lands

    * $2 million for the National Automotive Center

    * $100 million for breast cancer research

    * $45 million for prostate cancer research

    Many of the nonmilitary items in the Pentagon budget do not merit federal funding at all. Even items that constitute the legitimate use of taxpayer funds, however, should not be included in the military budget unless they are defense related.

    Congress should

    * eliminate any military construction add-on projects that are not essential; doing so in the FY97 defense budget would have saved at least $600 million;

    * reduce the number of general and flag-rank officers by 25 percent;

    * remove all nondefense spending (e.g., providing security for sporting events, such as the Olympic Games, and research on breast cancer) from the Pentagon budget; either eliminate such programs or transfer the spending to the proper budget classification;

    * end subsidies to arms producers, which currently total more than $7.6 billion per year; and

    * refrain from spending more money on the purchase of weapons not requested by the administration, such as additional B-2 bombers.

    After the 1994 election, the Republican-controlled 104th Congress promised to eliminate unnecessary and wasteful government spending, especially blatant pork-barrel spending. Although that is a familiar refrain during campaign season, there was some hope that the Republicans–presumably more willing than Democrats to reduce government spending–would actually deliver the promised cuts. But when it came to Department of Defense spending, the pork not only remained untrimmed, it actually grew larger.

    There is no single accepted definition of what constitutes pork-barrel spending in the defense budget. Sometimes the defense budget is used as a massive federal jobs program that particularly favors the states or districts of members of Congress who sit on the relevant committees. The pork can include such items as unnecessary weapons programs and military bases that are not needed for national security but remain open to provide economic benefits to the surrounding communities. Corporate welfare, in the form of subsidies to defense contractors, is another example of pork-barrel spending. In addition, the defense budget includes programs that are not even marginally related to national security, which should either be eliminated or moved to the relevant budget classification.

    Source

  81. 81.

    SeesThroughIt

    December 8, 2005 at 1:11 pm

    C’mon, guys, where’s your sympathy for the filthy rich? If you don’t cut taxes on them, they’ll take home a paltry $9 million instead of a robust $15 million. Can’t you see the tragedy in that? Nobody should have to suffer such a horrible indignity! How are they supposed to keep up payments on the beach house, the ski chalet, AND the mansion? They might even have to–zut alors!–give up a property. It makes my heart weep.

    What’s that? Some poor people want some food? Well…fuck them.

  82. 82.

    jg

    December 8, 2005 at 1:14 pm

    I still agree with many of the earlier tax cuts.

    You mean the ones they tossed to us so we’d also accept the massive cuts for the rich? What a fucking team player you are.

    If MY tax cut was reverted would I be paying $50 more a week? Less? What a windfall that tax cut was.

  83. 83.

    Bob Munck

    December 8, 2005 at 1:52 pm

    I do not think that the word “proscribed” means what you think it means. (Penultimate paragraph).

  84. 84.

    demimondian

    December 8, 2005 at 1:55 pm

    I do not think he meant to type “proscribed”. I think he meant to type “proscribed”. But he could have meant that the Heritage Foundation did not rule out tax cuts as a solution — the reading makes sense.

  85. 85.

    demimondian

    December 8, 2005 at 1:55 pm

    Fooey. Second “proscribed” should read “prescribed”

  86. 86.

    Steve S

    December 8, 2005 at 2:31 pm

    Speaking of free lunch, and the question “why are you a democrat” or “why are you a republican”, I grew up with free lunch, free breakfast, too! If my school didn’t have free breakfast, I probably wouldn’t have had breakfast. I think it kind of ties into what we saw in NO as well, if only as far as seeing so many folks shocked that we have such desperate poverty in OUR COUNTRY!

    School lunch started as a Republican idea under Eisenhower.

    It’s only been in recent years that the Republicans think it’s a bad idea and should be abolished. Part of their goal to end public education as we know it.

  87. 87.

    Andrei

    December 8, 2005 at 2:39 pm

    It is safe to say I sometimes sit around and ask myself- “WTF did I vote for and what did I get for my vote?”

    Just as it is safe to say a lot of us on the left and center-left position wonder the same thing with regard to you as well. (And I mean “you” in the plural sense.)

  88. 88.

    Steve S

    December 8, 2005 at 5:34 pm

    jg wrote:
    If MY tax cut was reverted would I be paying $50 more a week? Less? What a windfall that tax cut was.

    On my paycheck, when the tax cuts went into effect, it went up exactly $15 every two weeks.

    However my property tax bill has doubled since Republican Voodoo tax policy came into play. So they saved me $390, and cost me $1700.

  89. 89.

    Larry

    December 8, 2005 at 8:13 pm

    Republican Voodoo….. saved me $390, and cost me $1700.

    You’re gonna love the Medicare Drug Plan.

  90. 90.

    W.B. Reeves

    December 8, 2005 at 8:39 pm

    In the Constitution: “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    Covers quite a bit, actually.

    Pb,I wouldn’t waste a lot of time quoting the Constitution to Stormy. In such matters she is a methodological fundementalist. What she wants to see in “scripture” comes directly from god’s lips to her ear. What she prefers not to see simply isn’t there.

  91. 91.

    Bernard Yomtov

    December 8, 2005 at 9:37 pm

    I sometimes sit around and ask myself- “WTF did I vote for and what did I get for my vote?”

    You got exactly what any reasonable person would have expected. Don’t look for sympathy. Anyone who is surprised at Bush’s post-2004 policies wasn’t paying attention before.

  92. 92.

    BIRDZILLA

    December 8, 2005 at 9:41 pm

    More tax cuts get robbey byrd upset so much he will hide in his KKK hood

  93. 93.

    Marcos

    December 10, 2005 at 8:57 am

    Kerry voters:
    WTF?!? Vote = Anyone but Bush

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