The story of how Andrew Viveros became the prom queen of a Miami high school is about Andrew’s courage, and about the support of important adults in Andrew’s life:
Last year, school officials suggested Andrew not dress as a female in class and to “tone it down,” she said.
“This year we got a new principal and she’s very supportive of me,” Andrew said, even encouraging her to run for prom queen. “She said “Stay in the running. Don’t back down for anything.’”
Before the big night, Andrew’s father, Oscar Viveros, bought her a gown, shoes and makeup.
“My parents support me. They always have,” said Andrew, the oldest of four siblings.
“I’ve always loved him unconditionally,” said Oscar Viveros, who still uses male pronouns when talking about Andrew. “I’ve told my other kids, they have to support him. He thinks he’s a girl in a man’s body. In school, he hears this and that, but I’ve made sure in our house he’s free to act and do whatever makes him comfortable.”
Viveros, 46, a supervisor at a private garbage-collection company in Fort Lauderdale, said his co-workers aren’t as tolerant.
“I’ve got guys at work who say, ‘Oh, you didn’t beat him up?’’’ Viveros said. “I love him too much.”
lacp
He loves his son too much to beat him up? WTF kind of XtianMurkan parent is that?
Bostondreams
This is great. And as a teacher and a parent, that is a principal I want at my school.
horatius
About damn time, I say!!
CynDee
This is great, and great to hear about. What a fine Dad, who appreciates his child. What an excellent school principal. What a different world we would have if everybody embraced health and life and we could all be content to live and let live.
Bostondreams
Hmmm…interesting comments on the linked article too..
shortstop
We needed the good news. Thanks, mm.
Linda Featheringill
Papa is a very nice man. I hope that Life rewards him.
And that school principal rocks!
RalfW
More than 15 years ago, I stopped in a gay bar in Wichita, KS, and as I chatted with the bartender, he told me about Haloween the night before. His abuelo (grandma) made his dress, his dad ran the video camera as he vamped in the annual drag contest at the bar with his whole family cheering him on.
I lived in a relative cultural oasis, Austin, TX, at the time, and I was just stunned at the multi-generational acceptance in the midst of one of the most conservative regions in the nation.
But this guy was also over 21, and presented generally as male, just did drag on the side.
For a dad to be as amazing as Oscar – loving and supporting his trans highschooler. Awesome.
I haven’t known a ton of Latnio gay men (and not really known any Latino/a trans ppl) but from the stories I hear, family is so central to their lives that if the family can stick with the coming out of their kid, they can be fiercely loyal and loving of whoever they turn out to be.
Us cool, detached, WASP-y, (sub)urban white families can learn a thing or three about real family values from stories like Oscar and Andrew.
chopper
@lacp:
yeah, that jumped out at me. mostly because of the asshole coworker. ‘wait, you don’t beat your kid for not being just like you?’
Gordon Guano
When Glee had Kurt voted prom queen a few weeks back, it was due to homophobic vengeance. My faith in the educational value of network TV is being shaken.
Kid’s got a nice rack, too.
Ash Can
A sweet and uplifting story. Thanks for the treat!
Loneoak
When I read such stories, I find myself asking “Now was that so fucking hard?” People put a lot of hard work into bigotry, and far too little into basic decency.
stuckinred
@RalfW: Have you seen La Mission with Benjamin Bratt? A true story of a low-rider father and his gay son.
jibeaux
Yeah, the comments appeared to have been hit anonymously by every fellow student with a bone to pick with Andrew…
There was an interesting point to be made though, that the prom king was gay and that this hardly merited a mention. I’m sure there are plenty of gay prom kings, but most of them may not be out yet. I think they could have included him in the story a bit more, heard what his experiences were, etc, but maybe he didn’t want to be.
stuckinred
@Loneoak: One of my best friends has a transgender son and he was supportive from the start. He’s doing just fine.
This film was done 10 years ago.
Special Patrol Group
Moar of this, please.
Tim, Interrupted
The principal and father Oscar are my heroes for today.
Thanks for sharing this story.
dpcap
The only thing I’ve had a hard time wrapping my bigoted brain around is the self-mutilation part. I can understand if someone wants to identify themselves as the opposite gender but I don’t understand why they would mutilate themselves to get their body in line with their psyche.
beergoggles
Ok, I know this is juvenile of me but the high school is called ‘McFatter’? I can’t stop snickering..
arguingwithsignposts
@dpcap: Really? You would rather they live a life struggling against their own body than using medical procedures to alleviate psychic dischord? Interesting.
dpcap
@arguingwithsignposts: Well that’s what I’m trying to figure out.
To me, I have a low opinion of people who choose elective surgery to “improve” their body. This applies to everything from nose jobs to gastric bypass surgery to gender reassignment surgery. Why can’t people just be satisfied with who they are? It seems (anecdotally, I’ll admit) that generally people get elective surgery aren’t any happier than before.
stuckinred
@dpcap: A low opinion huh. So what?
arguingwithsignposts
@dpcap: While i can see some of your point, i also think the issue here is a little more complicated than a nose job. Since i have no personal knowledge on the subject, i’ll leave it to some of our transgendered commenters to weigh in more substantively.
beergoggles
@dpcap: Despite some such as you classifying this as ‘elective’ surgery, to some trans folks, it is lifesaving surgery. It’s probably better to liken it to hip or knee replacement surgery. Sure you might be able to live a miserable life without it, but having the surgery improves their quality of life.
Gordon Guano
@arguingwithsignposts: I used to want to be the Thing from the Fantastic Four, but it turns out being made of indestreuctible orange rock kinda sucks if you want to hold hands with someone, or ever want to have an erection.
By the same token, surgery has not advanced to the point that inverting a functioning set of wedding tackle into a squish mitten will not involve some, possibly lots, of nerve damage. I wouldn’t qualify a desire for gender reassignment surgery a pathology the way I would bug chasers or pedophiles, but it’s pretty damn stupid. Hell, I get disgusted and distressed when I look at the skin tag under my arm, but nobody’s proclaiming any months for me.
Plus, ladyboys are way hotter.
RalfW
@dpcap: Elective surgery done by a competent physician, in concert with a licensed clinical therapist pre- and post-op is not, in any way shape or form mutilation. Period.
You can be puzzled by the choices (or the following of a deeply personal internal imperative) of others. But I find your label of mutilation offensive and demeaning.
dpcap
@stuckinred:
Shallow people do shallow things. Act out in craven ways. Act hypocritically.
I’ve have a sister who nearly killed herself due to bulimia. Our society has major problems with how body image can destroy lives.
Though actually now I see beergoggles point that for transgendered people it’s a matter of choosing self mutilation (which might even result in death, or suicide) and having a medical professional give them what they want–safely.
dpcap
@RalfW: Jeez, I love how people are so quick to attack a perceived troll.
a. I admitted I was being bigoted
b. I want to improve my attitude.
So instead of being helpful and pointing out why I’m wrong you just get offended and act like an asshole. Thanks for nothing.
Gordon Guano
@beergoggles: just like being 5’9″ has cruelly deprived me of my heart’s fondest desire of being a jockey! Clearly, I have at least seven inches of leg too much and need surgery to remove them, and anyone who says otherwise is a big hateful meanie!
dpcap
@Gordon Guano:
Well as others have pointed out to me, generally people aren’t suicidal about their height or their crooked nose.
If gender alteration surgery can help prevent suicide, then perhaps it is a good thing.
Brian S
Love this story, but I really wish that reporter and editor had identified her as Andii and not as Andrew. Andii is how she identifies, and reporters should respect that.
IrishGirl
@Gordon Guano: You’re missing something very crucial. People who undergo this kind of surgery don’t just have a desire to be different. They are different in their psychological makeup. Its something so fundamental that nothing can change their mind. Think about yourself and how you just accept your gender. It’s so fundamental, you don’t even have to think about it right?
Now try this…..think about being born a man but in your head, you completely accept and feel like you’re a woman. Can you even imagine how weird it would be, how almost everything you did, every perception of the world and how others treated you would see somehow wrong? Try imagining this and how difficult life would be for someone like that.
Done by a competent surgeon it isn’t mutilation and it does save their lives because otherwise they are miserable, every moment of every day.
matryoshka
Thanks for this, m&m. I was just sitting here kvetching because I have too much work in front of me to slither out and go cheer the first civil unions happening in Illinois right now, a block from where I work, but this article lifted my spirits immensely. And thanks to the parents out there who get the whole unconditional love thing, mine included.
beergoggles
@Gordon Guano:
You should go play in traffic if it bothers you so much.
RalfW
@dpcap: Um, I did point out why I found your opinion wrong. And I said that I found your word mutliation to be offensive to me. I didn’t call you an asshole, I didn’t tell you to f’off, I didn’t to the shitty thing you just did of writing me off.
arguingwithsignposts
@Brian S: The reporter asked her how she wanted to be identified and she said Andrew (from the comments on the story).
RalfW
Is it assholish to be offended by something? Is it jerky to say what one’s personal limits are when something someone else says appears trans-phobic?
How dos a loose-knit blogging group set norms and establish limits if in saying “Im offended, this is over a line” in itself seems to offend and set off someone else.
I know questions of flame wars are as old and boring as fat Al Gore and the Interwebity, but really. Huh.
Grommit Gunn (formerly JMC_in_the_ATL)
It took me a few years to come to terms with my own feelings on the surgery. In the end, I did, through a combination of getting to know a couple of very well-adjusted MTFs, and making the mental leap that my own visceral reaction to the idea of the surgery was not dissimilar to the “ick” reaction a lot of hetero guys have towards gay male sex. At the end if the day, if it brings something profoundly discordant into harmony and increases the trans person’s quality of life, then so be it.
AAA Bonds
What a great principal, and what a great dad.
Brian S
@arguingwithsignposts: Thanks. I make it a habit to avoid comments sections in newspaper articles, especially on stories like this.
shortstop
@matryoshka: Is the first today? I have pals doing the huge unionizing ceremony tomorrow at the CHM. So exciting.
dpcap
@RalfW: Let’s break it down shall we?
This was helpful. Thank you.
Ok, I was going to say you were labeling me, but I guess not. Look, I wasn’t trying to be offensive. I had no idea it was offensive. I’m sorry. As I said, I was trying to understand it. Perhaps you should have phrased it differently so it wouldn’t have seemed so offensive to me, such as “Hey dpcap I know you’re trying, but calling it ‘mutilation’ can be really offensive, so try toning it down next time, mkay?”
That would have been so much nicer.
Also, again as I mentioned above, I’ve nearly lost family members who were trying to mutilate themselves over their body image, so that is why I was using the term mutilate. It seemed like a dangerous mental illness to me which could result in people getting seriously hurt. But as others have pointed out, it’s better to have a doctor do the gender reassignment than to have someone kill themselves over this.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@IrishGirl:
if its no skin off mine, dowhatchawant, much less need, with yours.
that said, i am not so sure gender is all that fundamental. i think the reason many people have a problem with transgender/intersex/transexual is that they feel some what uncomfortable with their own gender roles,or think in passing that parts of their personality might be better suited to the advantages of another gender. they try to banish the thought or compartmentalize it, because its supposed to be all or nothing . so when they see some one, they feel, blows that out of the water, it touches that insecurity. gender absolutism is easy, understanding that certain parts of the brain don’t go completely dark, even if they aren’t dominant, isn’t.
Paul in KY
Nice story. Glad she has parents that support her.
Did live in Miami for 3 years & never heard of ‘McFatter Technical HS’. I guess it is a fairly new school.
I wonder if it is a magnet school or a ‘regular’ high school?
Amanda in the South Bay
@dpcap:
Um, hey, I’m trans, and I think its insulting, because you couldn’t do the least bit of homework beforehand and start implying that trans people are dangerous cause they want to self mutilate themselves. Um, hello transphobic trope?
Arrgh, I hate having the burden of giving 101 lessons to people in the age of Google. This has nothing to do with self mutilation and body image, and the only reason that most trans people even do that to begin with is that society fucks us over with job discrimination, and its extremely hard to safe for surgery.
Valenciennes
@dpcap: Hey, so, it’s kind of weird to be in the position of explaining this again after a few years away from “trans 101” discussions, but I just stumbled upon this blog and kind of like it, and have already outed myself as trans in a prior post, so.
Transition’s not about “elective surgery” to “look better,” it’s about getting your body’s hormonal levels in line with your brain’s expectations and finally becoming vaguely comfortable with the way your body feels and looks and operates. SRS isn’t about getting a porn star vagina, it’s about finally being comfortable with an area that feels awkward at best and wholly off-limits at worst.
Other surgeries trans people may or may not undergo during the course of transition are, again, not for the purposes of making one’s self sexier or whatever, but are done in an effort to have a happier, more bearable life.
Being trans is one of the most painful, dehumanizing experiences a person can luck into, and it’s this misunderstanding of the very basis of that pain — the notion that trans people COULD be happy without changing their vastly-more-malleable bodies to be in line with their lifelong self-perception, instead of the >50% suicide rate for non-transitioners — that makes trans people’s lives harder and impedes access to treatments that have proven to
I mean, I’ve never had surgery of any kind but after years of having my body be estrogen-oriented, it’s mindboggling to realize that I once lived the way I did. Being treated like a guy was the most horrible, desperation-inducing experience imaginable. It never happens anymore, and I cannot put into words how much better and more navigable my life is now. The idea that any part of this process is “mutilation” or in any way harmful (aside from the abuse and lack of social support trans people receive in society at large, of course) is so far off-base as to be, yes, quite insulting and offensive. It’s cool that you apologized, though.
(God, such a long post)
celticdragonchick
@dpcap:
Uh…because a person with gender dysphoria simply does not relate to their biologically determined sex.
I was born male…but I have always known from childhood that I was supposed to be female. The reasons for this unclear, but it does happen to people. In order to protect this secret, then, the person must engage in a 24 hour a day charade and pretend to be something he or she really is not. It is exhausting and corrosive to the spirit. You become resentful that you cannot actually be yourself and participate in society the way you would like, and you also become consumed with guilt that you constantly lying to your own loved ones about who you are.
This means that even the act of lovemaking becomes frustrating, and romantic relationships become strained. It is not uncommon for male to female trans-people to describe that the only way they can actually even have sex is to pretend the entire time that they are women being made love to.(True Selves, Brown, Rounsley)</a
Sex reassignment surgery is the means by which persons with gender dysphoria finally claim integration of their personalities and their bodies. It is an arduous process of going to therapists and physicians, then beginning hormone replacement therapy and beginning the real life test where you live and work constantly in the gender you are choosing. It is a minimum of 18 months before any surgeon will consider Sex Reassignment Surgery, and typically much longer then that because of the considerable costs.
Along with SRS, it is common for trans people to have various plastic surgical procedures that will make it possible to look appropriate in their new life. Female to male trans people usually have mastectomies. Male to female trans people often, though not always, have breast augmentation. Many times, taking estrogen alone will produce results that are sufficient in this regard. Also, laser and electrolysis body and facial hair reduction is a must, and can be as expensive as SRS.
Very masculine noses and brow ridges can be altered, and this is called facial feminization. While vanity plays a role here, it also can be extremely helpful in passing (which is really, really important to a trans person)and this will go a long way to determining if you will be able to get a job, as well as not being stalked and badly beaten because somebody tagged you as a “fag in a dress”.
Looking the part, as well as living in the societal role and being able to experience love making in your preferred gender(for most) are all vital to the well being of trans people. This is not about being rebellious, or about trying to deconstruct societal norms of gender. It is about actually having your brain match your body.
Lojasmo
@dpcap:
Elective surgery is not generally referred to as “self-mutilation”
Is that how you would characterize my decision to have my inguinal hernia repaired?
Thought not. Bigotry is not cool, even on balloon-juice. Kindly shove it.
On edit: it seems you have learned a little something, but I am leaving my initial, somewhat rancorous response, because, as stated, your attitude is wrongheaded.
dpcap
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Well in the age of Google, you are CREATING new content as you type. Your comment here will be apparent to others who are searching, so yes you can help by being nice to people and offering helpful insights.
In my case though I wanted to express my thought and have people address them accordingly. You know, what comments are for? These comments aren’t just here as an echo chamber for John and his bloggers.
Instead you are unhelpful and unfriendly and thus giving me a bad impression of transgendered folks. Thank you for helping me form an opinion.
Also it IS mutilation when someone in desperation causes harm to themselves. Or they can let a doctor do it, through surgery or therapy. It’s an important distinction which I’ve come to recognize with the assistance of helpful commenters here.
alexmac
Ok so I am also trans and I will take a whack at some of the questions.
@dpcap- The using the word “mutilation” to describe gender reassignment surgery is really inflammatory. Trans folks have that lobed at us all the time and so most folks have little tolerance for that nth time we are called psychotic, delusional self-mutilators. at least that is how I see it.
As to the question of why some trans folks want surgery, imagine if one day you woke up with breasts and a vagina. You still think of yourself as a man, but everyone sees you as a woman. Wouldn’t you want to get back to being recognized as a man and have your body match that expectation? Thats the situation most trans people find themselves in.
dpcap
@Valenciennes:
Thank you thank you thank you. You are a nice person.
edit: @celticdragonchick you are a nice person too. Thank you.
edit2: @Lojasmo you are not a nice person. Shove it.
celticdragonchick
@Valenciennes:
Nicely put. Good to see another sister here!
Big hug and hello to Amanda, also. :)
celticdragonchick
@dpcap:
No problem. I hope I was able to answer some of your questions. True Selves is a good place to start if you want to learn more. I also would suggest The Riddle of Gender for a more academic approach.
If there is anything else I can help you with here, let me know. I would rather people ask me instead of getting their answers from the freaks on Jerry Springer.
Amanda in the South Bay
@dpcap:
And again, the bulk of trans people (often trans women) “mutilating” themselves has everything to do with lack of money, persistent job discrimination, and being fucked over by an unsympathetic medical establishment.
Adios.
dpcap
celticdragonchick’s response made me think of a new question (I know, I’m practically begging to be flamed now. Just bare with me because I’m curious.)
What is appropriate? Breast augmentation surgery is often used for vanity by women so why should a transgendered person be concerned with it? Why would it be necessary to not only become the opposite gender but apparently to become a perfect specimen of that gender?
I’ve heard of many hermaphroditic groups who are trying to destroy the oppression of the binary sexes, so why would it become imperative to subjugate oneself to the worst stereotypes of their chosen gender?
celticdragonchick
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Hey hon. :)
I know that this is nothing at all like a body mutilation pathologies, but body image goes a long way into this for trans men and women. Our internal body image is completely out of sync with what we got stuck with at birth.
I will never be 5’6″ and able to slip into a size 4 dress, since I am 5’11” and have shoulders like a linebacker. Ugh. My body image does not even remotely match who I am externally. I have to work with what I’ve got and I can change some of the problems. :)
***********************
I’m sorry if this is TMI for some here, but I am being honest about some issues in hope that others will understand a little better.
shortstop
dpcap: If you’re honestly here for information, spend far less time worrying about your precious feelings and listen up so you can learn something about the feelings of trans people. Your ego is not the topic of this thread.
dpcap
@shortstop: It’s not my feelings that I’m pissed about. It’s the “if you don’t think exactly like us, you’re not welcome here” attitude. We’re often so quick to accuse Republicans of enacting “purity tests” to keep their party message consistent, and yet, I’m not allowed to ask WHY?
Besides where is the “useful” information in your post? Why did you even post other than to flame me? Shove it. Some people here have been very friendly and helpful even if you weren’t.
stuckinred
@dpcap: I’m not a nice person, go fuck yourself with your phony ass bullshit.
celticdragonchick
@Gordon Guano:
You are free to take your batshit over to Red State. You might feel more comfortable over there. Just a thought.
celticdragonchick
@stuckinred:
That doesn’t really help. dpcap asked some fairly common questions over widely help misperceptions. Far better we actually help him understand the issue rather then berate him and chase him away for not knowing in the first place.
My wife ran into something similar when she first went to a PFLAG meeting after I came out as trans. She had no idea what the politically correct tenor of the group was, and they raked over the coals for being ignorant of terminology and the attitudes they thought were proper. She never went back.
Instead of helping her as a spouse of a GLBT person…which is supposed to be a core function of PFLAG…they chased her away. Not a productive thing, in my view. This thread serves a similar purpose in that it can educate others , and I am happy to help with that.
evinfuilt
@dpcap:
I’ll say I’ve been 1000x happier since I had my operation. I also get to joke about rocky mountain oysters anytime someone is squeamish about what I did.
So there’s an anecdote to counter it. Mind you, anecdotes are meaningless.
Oh, did I mention the thousands of dollars in therapy I was required to have, then end it with a massive psych profile to prove I wasn’t insane, before I could get a life changing surgery? That I then looked like a victim of a horrible car accident after surgery and was more sore than you could imagine, and i really loved the stitches on my neck from the tracheal shave, I looked like the frickin Kurgan from Highlander.
But yeah, you’re right, I’m sure it was just superficial and won’t really improve my life.
dpcap
@stuckinred: LOL well at least you’re honest.
stuckinred
@celticdragonchick: Bullshit, he or she came here making a pejorative and insulting statement and then went into “oh, I was just asking a question”. Fuck that.
evinfuilt
@dpcap:
and that it does :)
dpcap
@stuckinred: Hey I was avoiding profanity before, but really, go fuck yourself.
I used the term “mutilation” before I realized it was such taboo here. I was not trying to be a troll or a concern troll. My concern was of the people who I knew (not transgendered people) who had caused great harm to their bodies in a desperate attempt to conform to whatever madness was in their mind. So yes, I categorized that as “mutilation.”
Nonetheless many helpful commenters pointed out that for transgendered people, the surgery is actually a catharsis. They are better off and happier because of it. So now I understand why “mutilation” was a bad choice of words. It’s amazing what a few open minded people can do with reasonable debate. You know. Educate the ignorant?
So I’ll say it again, go fuck yourself you pathetic waste of humanity.
evinfuilt
@celticdragonchick:
Being 5’11” does suck, but I lucked out and in my last job both of my female coworkers were as well. It really helped blending in at the job. These damn shoulders will forever give me away if someone looks enough.
What I love most is that people don’t naturally assume there are TG’s in there lives, so they don’t even look for you. I found that the confidence I gained after surgery allowed me to be perceived as a female even better than before (okay, the tits don’t hurt.) 95% of the time I wear no make-up, and dressed kinda sporty, people just assume I work out too much.
celticdragonchick
@evinfuilt:
I am avoiding that procedure. Yow!
I hope you didn’t try to have anything done to your vocal cords. There are a lot of good people to go to for vocal work on changing your voice. It worked wonders for me. People thought I was my wife on the phone. ;)
celticdragonchick
@evinfuilt:
Very cool! :)
I am not interested in porn star boobs by any stretch of the imagination (I see what a pain in the ass it is to get tops that fit for my wife every time we go shopping, since she is pretty well endowed, and I have enough back problems as it is), but I do need to at least be proportionate with my upper body size. That will be my next expenditure.
evinfuilt
@dpcap:
I just need to relate something that pissed me off a few years ago. When one of my required doctors visits had me meeting with a specialist, who deals with us a lot… but for some reason she felt like saying what I was doing was very selfish, and that I should feel some shame for the mutilation I’m about to go through.
That was a fuckin’ doctor! An endocrinologist who worked primarily in the TG community. Interestingly enough, after my insurance got used to my transition I was able to see someone in-network and never had to see that bitch again. The new guy was in his 60s and dealt with post-menopausal women as much as TG, and treated us all with equal respect.
@celticdragonchick
Hope everything has worked out well with your wife. Mine said screw it to PFLAG (even though we both worked at a university), she said she didn’t need support, she just needed me and tranistioning meant I wasn’t going to do anything stupid and leave her. 13 years married and still going strong, I love her :)
stuckinred
@dpcap: You are the punk we are supposed to be gentle with huh?
ruemara
This is a great story to wake up to. And I’m only gonna say that gender reassignment surgery is not mutilation, it is a procedure chosen by individuals who believe that this is a correction to problem that is far more than cosmetic. They don’t choose it lightly, it is not a whim, it is a long journey and many are much, much happier when the outside matches the inside. I don’t blame you for your feelings but I think, dcap, you can at least understand that calling such a deeply personal choice “mutilation” and likening it to your sister’s struggle with bulimia (which is sad, but also is as much a choice as manic depression) may have made transpersons feel a touch miffed.
evinfuilt
@celticdragonchick:
Not as such. I still sound like a gay man on the phone ;) It’s even better when my british accent comes through.
I do want to give props to my plastic surgeon. Dr Yarish in Houston texas. Not only did he do an excellent job, he made me comfortable from begining to end with all the photos and no back door entrance to his clinic (in a real nice neighborhood.) He couldn’t be more supportive of the TG community, and what i really loved is that he then took vacations in Mexico to fix cleft palates for kids in poverty.
On the other hand, I don’t miss leaving Houston, Colorado is just so much more tolerant.
stuckinred
@ruemara: and non-transpersons as well
dpcap
@ruemara: True but as celticdragonchick and evinfruit poitned out, there is a lot of ignorance out there. People who are nice people and want to be understanding of transgendered people need to be educated in a friendly helpful way. Up until today I honestly had no idea that mutilation can be a bad choice of words. Now that I know I’ll go and correct my friends and help them to understand transgendered people better. So it really helps us all (Well, those of use who want to be open minded–the rest of the bigots will never learn.)
So really: try to be patient and helpful, it will really help the transgendered cause to promote understanding.
celticdragonchick
@evinfuilt:
My wife and I are till together and doing well. Even after arguments we still manage to kiss goodnite :) We pretty much left the GLBT support groups as well. Lots of drama and bruised egos everywhere. (We are both Revoutionary War re-enactors now…and still manage to run into drama from time to time, lol)
I am so glad that you found a good doctor to work with and that your plastic surgeon was so supportive. May I ask who did your SRS work? Many of my friends have gone to Marcy Bowers in Trinidad, Co.
Amanda in the South Bay
I got more than a tad pissed, mostly because I just fucking had surgery myself (orchiectomy) and this being one of my favourite blogs…I don’t like the feeling of being cornered and forced to justify my decision to transition, start on hormones, have surgery,etc.
Celticdragonchick:
Yeah, I get you with the whole PFLAG thing, but in this case, it seems rather trivial for someone to do their homework before implying that trans people just wanna mutilate themselves. Someone coming into a conversation with that kind of assumption isn’t doing anyone any favours.
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: So I wasn’t over-reacting now was I?
shortstop
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Yes, and having made a verbal blunder of a magnitude that few not confined to a cave for the last 20 years would make, he compounds it by then demanding to be treated with kid gloves himself and making/attempting to keep the conversation entirely about him. I don’t believe we have a good-faith questioner here, especially given that he’s over in another thread wondering whether Anthony Weiner is guilty of sexual harassment.
dpcap
@Amanda in the South Bay: Really? You seriously expect me to read up on everything that you’re aware of before I start posting?
Could I get info from another site? Yes, but I happen to be here right now. I happen like Balloon Juice too, and up until today I’ve had nice experiences here so I figured I’d start here for my education.
Amanda in the South Bay
@stuckinred:
Nah, I don’t think so.
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: Funny that this began as such a positive thread.
shortstop
@stuckinred: And it still can be, if we return to its original topic. ;) How about that prom king and queen! They look adorable and brilliantly happy!
Amanda in the South Bay
Sorry for freaking out, I didn’t mean to go too OT or anything.
dpcap
@shortstop: Agreed they look great. Sorry for derailing this so much. Thank you all for helping me to understand, I’m done now.
celticdragonchick
They do look adorable. I appreciate that mistermix posted this. Thanks!
ruemara
@dpcap:
That’s why this non-transperson wanted to foster a better understanding between people who probably agree on the greater issue that this is a wonderful story of tolerance and acceptance. So, thanks for sticking with it to understand.
dpcap
@evinfuilt: Evin, I just read your story closer and I gotta say your wife is awesome! Congrats on getting through it so (seemingly) easy.
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: You have nothing to apologize for, nothing. Did you see the link I posted way up thread about my friend Kade?
asiangrrlMN
This is a beautiful story, and I agree with jibeaux that it’s kinda cool the fact that the prom king is gay wasn’t a big deal (or seemingly so).
@dpcap: My only comment to you since you’re so stuck on who’s nice to whom is that you weren’t nice yourself in your first comment. If YOU wanted to be nice, you could have said something like, “I don’t understand gender reassessment surgery or why someone would do that. Can someone help me out?”
That would have been nice.
@Amanda in the South Bay: Standing with you on this one. You were not wrong to get pissed off at all.
Trakker
Day after day I read how the GOP is dragging America backwards, ever backwards, and it hurts and it pisses me off, but then I read something like this and I scream, “FUCK YOU, GOP, you may win some battles but WE’re winning the war!”
Joel
You know, I got self-mutilated when I had a herniated disc from my back. Elective surgery. Improved my quality of life dramatically.
Amanda in the South Bay
@stuckinred:
Thanks, I get a little freaked out when I get pissed off in comment threads, because I constantly worry about going overboard of if I said the right thing, etc. I just don’t have a lot of self esteem commenting.
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: FWIW I think you are great!
you too up there on the tundra!
stuckinred
@Joel: Yea, I’ve had harrington rods on my spine since 1975. It was elective, they said that or a year in traction with screws in my skull. What was I thinking having that surgery?
celticdragonchick
@Joel:
My back surgery didn’t help worth a damn. In fact, it did more damage and led to a second surgery. I’m glad yours went better then mine.
dpcap
@asiangrrlMN: Well that’s what I tried to do, but at the time I posted that I didn’t know/understand exactly what goes on during SRS nor did I know how incendiary the word “mutilation” was. So I had no idea how to form the “question” better. Some people at least saw that I was trying, and thus were nice to me.
To those of you whom I offended, I’m really really sorry. I’ll try to be more careful next time.
stuckinred
@celticdragonchick: My back was broken so I didn’t have much choice.
celticdragonchick
@stuckinred:
Damn. I’m sorry to hear that. :(
That is one of those times when you really do not have a choice.
stuckinred
@celticdragonchick: Aw it’s fine! I was very lucky, 9 months in a full body cast, bone graft and rods on the spine and I never looked back. Fit as a fiddle at 62!
WaterGirl
Happy day for the prom king and queen, and a victory for everyone. I think dpcap is sincere, but there is a ton of really good information in this post, so even if dpcap wasn’t sincere, I think the outcome was way more good than bad.
What I found even more interesting is the parallel to the discussions about race. The being oh-so tired of having to explain it one more time, the wanting people to go looking for information elsewhere rather than asking a question, etc.
i am/was really happy to see folks taking the time to engage in this conversation, even after a seemingly dumb question is asked or a maddening comment is made. Although I can understand how wearying it must be at times, I think that talking and explaining is how we help make the world a more accepting place.
stuckinred
@WaterGirl: Except for some of us who are less tolerant. The father I was talking about it from Urbana.
Gordon Guano
Gah, never mind. If someone else wants to roll the dice on their ability to get their rocks off (so to speak), it’s no skin off my nose. I’m glad the people who have spoken up about the surgery say they’ve been helped by it, and I’m glad the kid had better grace than Kurt on Glee.
@celticdragonchick: too bisexual to be a redstater, too much of an Aspie/asshole to play with the cool kids most of the time. So mostly I lurk.
Caoimhe Snow
One thing that I don’t recall seeing mentioned so far is that in order to be legally recognized as a woman, a trans woman is almost always required to undergo some sort of genital surgery. This is not always a choice of the individual, but a societal requirement. Until you get the surgery, you are not considered a “legal” woman.
Thus, surgeries are done not just for mental health reasons but also for legal reasons. There is a definite safety and legal risk of presenting as female but having a legal identity of “male.”
PanurgeATL
Well, what is a woman (or a man), anyway? OK, here goes satisfying absolutely no one…
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:
Exactly. I think most people’s ideas (especially in the 20th and 21st Centuries) about what a man and woman are develop in the cradle. It stands to reason.
This doesn’t seem right to me. Isn’t it the most conservative–the ones who are most OK with traditional conceptions of the sexes–who have the biggest problem with it?
Transgenderism, ISTM, is very much about that all-or-nothing sense of “gender absolutism” inculcated from the cradle; it seems simply to exchange one absolutist conception for another. After all, men don’t one day wake up with breasts and a vagina; to try to make the point that way is to assert (1) that “femaleness” is a matter of psychological/spiritual essentialism and (2) that somehow the physical quality of being male is necessarily incompatible with that “essence”. If it happened to me and I lost my Y chromosomes I’d be forced to conclude that I had, in fact, become a woman, regardless of questions of “essence”. I’ve always been all about challenging gender absolutism, though, so the trans fight isn’t mine. (But then [SOB STORY] I seem to be out here alone, anyway…) I won’t stand in its way, though.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@PanurgeATL:
as to what develops gender, its obviously not exclusively nurture, its not entirely nature.
being conservative or liberal, probably have little to do with it, since those are most likely nurture, after, sometimes way after, brain patterns, and hormones and everything else, including nurture, have had a chance to act on a person.
on the third, i think one has to be open to the concept that it is rare to find someone who is 100% one or the other, but that for most people, gender is a preponderance of the brain chemicals, the electrical patterns, the hormone development, the societal conditioning, that determines gender. however, there are people who have very pronounced traits of both genders, a penis or vagina being a pronounced trait, as well as one’s mind. for them, they are deciding on the basis of a much more difficult set of parameters.
PanurgeATL
Well, fair enough, I guess. I just always felt that maybe we should be creating a world where people didn’t feel a need to “decide”, and that’s a dream that it seems is slowly being lost simply for the lack of people dreaming it.