Start your day with a dose of futile rage.
Then, as Republicans discovered the power of their new tool, the president decided to assume they were bluffing, that they would never actually do anything so reckless. Waking up to the reality of the situation too late, he commenced bargaining by offering what he assumed would be an irresistible deal. Wrong again. The Republicans did resist. So Obama offered an even better deal — which predictably only whetted the GOP appetite for still more.
Obama never publicly branded the debt ceiling as “if the Republicans force this country into bankruptcy.” He issued no public call to constituencies like the financial industry to bring pressure to bear on the issue. He did not warn that he would manage any crisis in ways that Republicans would not like. (“If the Republicans in Congress deny me the authority to pay everybody, then I’m going to have to choose some priorities. I don’t think it’s likely that Texas-based defense contractors will find themselves at the top of my list.”)
Instead, he appealed again and again to Republicans’ spirit of responsibility.
Frum via TPM.
geg6
I’m trying not to panic as the punditry weigh in on their theories as to what is going to happen today. I try to remember that Our Punditry are almost always wrong and do not understand math or policy. I try to remember that, with them, it’s all about the horse race, not human or economic consequences.
I’m still trying.
4tehlulz
So everyone here was wrong when you claimed it was a bluff.
cathyx
I’m sure this time it’ll be different.
Omnes Omnibus
Yes, let us all panic and assume that the reason Democrats try to get elected is to cut programs. I don’t know how it will all shake out, but, at this point, I don’t plan on doing a Chicken Little act.
arguingwithsignposts
You mean this David Frum:
The man didn’t even know we were involved in two wars at the time. I’ll listen to him when he buys a fucking clue.
Xenos
There will be plenty of time to panic if indeed Obama sells the New Deal down the river. The GOP has painted itself into a corner here, and even if they get more than they deserve out of the compromise, they are in huge trouble going forward.
Han's Solo
So now it is Obama that kept offering these “better deals?” I thought Republicans said he wasn’t offering any leadership. If he was offering deals of any kind than he was.
Obama never publicly branded the debt ceiling as “if the Republicans force this country into bankruptcy.”He issued no public call to constituencies like the financial industry to bring pressure to bear on the issue.
He did not warn that he would manage any crisis in ways that Republicans would not like. (“If the Republicans in Congress deny me the authority to pay everybody, then I’m going to have to choose some priorities. I don’t think it’s likely that Texas-based defense contractors will find themselves at the top of my list.”)
Instead, he appealed again and again to Republicans’ spirit of responsibility.
Baud
That is about as lame a critique as you could have. Especially the middle one – the financial industry has been all over the Republicans on this, as a 2 second Google search would reveal.
Edit: Deleted link to search – didn’t take for some reason.
ericblair
Aaand, Frum got this information how from whom?
At least the spirit of bipartisanship lives on here. Whatever our politics, from teabagger to arugula-munching hippie, we always believe whatever Republicans say and disbelieve whatever Democrats say.
Han's Solo
So now it is Obama that kept offering these “better deals?” I thought Republicans said he wasn’t offering any leadership. If he was offering deals of any kind than he was.
He didn’t have to. Indeed, it wouldn’t have worked if he did. What Obama did was give the Republicans enough rope to hang themselves and then give tips on how to tie the knot. And it worked; Bobo and Cohen are now openly stating that it will be the Republicans fault if we default on the debt.
I’d bet good money that that is factually incorrect. Just because Obama doesn’t say, “If you don’t do what I want I’m telling Wall Street on you,” doesn’t mean he doesn’t talk to the financial industry.
Good, I’m glad he didn’t. That is not the Obama I voted for, and it certainly isn’t the Obama I contributed to. If default comes, then I expect the prioritization to happen, and I expect the red states won’t enjoy it. But threatening a rabid beast (which is what today’s GOP is) is hardly a good idea unless you want to be bitten. IMO, threatening them would be counterproductive. And if there is one thing Obama has showed time after time it is that he is far more interested in actually getting things done then scoring political points.
Did he? Or did he foresee that the GOP would behave badly and that the issue was so huge even the right wing pundits would have to start siding with the Democrats, thereby cementing in independent voters minds that the GOP is fucking bonkers?
KCinDC
So now we’re going to follow a Republican’s lead in embracing the idea that Obama is inept and/or evil? What could go wrong?
urizon
@Xenos It’s actually the president who’s in a corner. Why? Because he doesn’t have the stones to call the wingnuts’ bluff. He’s too busy saving his powder for a fight that will never come.
amk
frum ? really ? Guess you couldn’t find anyone dumber.
Linda Featheringill
xenos #10
Amen.
Bear in mind that whatever agreements these meetings approve, the bill has to be voted on by members of Congress and we can rant and rave at them.
I understand that these are closed-door negotiations but they cannot enact laws in that hidden space. We will have an opportunity to bitch and moan later.
Besides, we don’t know that Obama will prove to be worse than [fill in the blank]. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Loviatar
Wow,
The clap harder brigade is starting early on this one.
Don’t worry guys the harder you clap the better things will turn out.
CLAP, CLAP, CLAP
snarl
Lolis
Pelosi is the only Democrat I truly trust. She is meeting with all the players today. She will stand up for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
I will say this again, the lack of transparency here is just awful. The president is not following through on his pledge.
pablo
A sure sign that the President has reached the end of his patience.
Campionrules
Clearly this is the beginning moves of a master gambit by our 11th Dimensional Chess Master in Chief. I laugh at all those idiots on the left you are freaking out about possible “cuts” to Medicare and Social Security. What idiots they are. Obama is just leading the Republican’s to slaughter, just like he did with TARP, the Stimulus and ACA. What amazes me is that we don’t have, like, a total 100 percent majority in Congress already. I mean, Obama’s been president for like three years, you’d think people would understand his greatness and get with the program…..pfui.
Poopyman
@arguingwithsignposts:
Oh, David Frum has a clue, I believe. There’s a difference in what he believes and what he writes. It’s just more convenient to package your ideology by conveniently forgetting a few facts.
As for how the day will play out, I find it hard to believe that the Dems will throw away one of their greatest signature programs, and while knowing that the Reps will be saying “they took away your Social Security” come election time. But then again, so many hard–to–believe things have come true in the last 3 years ….
homerhk
Han Solo:
this is absolutely right. everyone got into a tizzy when he said “I take Boner at his word” because they thought that Obama really sincerely believed that. I would say that is a complete misread of what he was doing. He was doing what you said. If you think about the stuff he has managed to get through (stimulus, healthcare, wall st reform and everything else up to the lame duck) he didn’t really get or bargain on ANY republican votes (apart from one or two here or there). I don’t think he was under any illusions about republicans although he might have been under a misguided impression that the media would do their fucking job and that the general public wouldn’t be imbeciles.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
what i think the gop is doing: getting obama to talk about doing things that fit their most fluffernuttiest long standing fears and accusations, the right fringe wants to repeal the 14th amendment, they listen to fema death camp fantasies, and the obama is a ruthless dictator talk, because it fits their oppression envy fantasy. they will point to obama taking charge of who gets paid, not as a consequence of the hostage situation, but the obama end game, all along.
what i hope obama is doing, offering the gop a deal they can’t accept, offering cuts the gop could never hope to get, believing they still won’t take the deal. in the process, the counter to every gop whinge about this program or that, this or that issue, real or imagined, is that you had your chance and voted against what you are saying is bad evil and the fault of the democrats. like the safety nets.
its time to tie the gop to the default, and the ensuing consequences. their strategy only works if people don’t realize what they are playing with. in a conscious active electorate, there is no way they could get away with threatening this shit.
oh, wait, i heard casey anthony is going to do a porno with anthony’s weiner. nevermind.
Nemesis
So, if I have this straight, in order to back goopers into a corner on revenue increases (higher taxes) and to appeal to moderates by looking reasonable via bipartisanship maneuvers, the president may agree to gut social safety net programs?
I expect more, way more, for what I may be giving up. Like, say, the destruction of the goopers party at the hands of norquist.
Which condiments go best on a shit sandwich?
RP
UN-F**KING-BELIEVABLE. Shorter Frum — “Obama sucks because he let my side act like a bunch of terrorist loons.”
Thank you for indulging me, Mr. Frum. I do, in fact, blame his opponents. Obama has made mistakes, but if a lunatic hijacks a bus and ends up killing the passengers, he’s the one to blame, not the police who might have a made some mistakes when trying to resolve the situatino.
RalfW
This is what I try, from time to time, though it can feel futile, to explain to my liberal friends who has an Obama sad.
And as far as
No, no, no. He appealed to VOTER’s spirit of responsibility. The electorate is dumb and uninformed, but enough seeps thru that they know that Obama has been the moderate in this awful game, and the GOP has been insane.
It’s just taken Bobo about 2 years longer than the rest of us to figure that out. Because he has the pulse of the bow-tie electorate, not the teeming masses who revolt his delicate sensibilities.
mrmobi
Agreed. However, here I think Frum got it right:
As someone who depends on that monthly SS deposit, it is infuriating and frightening to read about cost of living adjustments possibly being lowered for the sickest, poorest among us as being part of a “grand bargain.” What is grand about taking money away from people who have no other means of support? Why is SS even being considered as a way to lower the deficit, and by Democrats? If that rumor is true, I see a very low likelihood of Democratic gains in 2012.
I’m a confirmed Obot, but I have to say I’m deeply disappointed with the President’s choice of “negotiating” techniques. What should be a time to get the popcorn going while watching the Republican Party self-destruct may turn into just the opposite.
Somebody help me back away from the edge of the cliff, please.
Poopyman
Has anyone alerted HuffPo?
Boudicca
This may be a stupid question, but why isn’t anyone talking about the Simpson-Bowles commission? I remember not liking some of the recommendations at the time, but it seems more sane now given the potential options we are facing.
RP
And screw J. Marshall for endorsing this nonsense. Marshall has turned into a dyed in the wool villager.
MomSense
Bravo Han’s Solo #7!!
Tim F.
Um. Speaking as the guy who organizes ranting and raving, we do not have any fucking time. If some sort of deal gets brokered that shoves a hot poker up the ass of the New Deal, they will announce it on the night before Armageddon and pass it after three or four minutes of debate in each house. The Democrats would want this to go fast and quiet even more than the Republicans do.
Everyone in DC knows that open phone lines will kill any ‘deal’. If anything teabaggers will flip out ten times worse than we do.
Han's Solo
@Nemesis:
No word of the actual compromise has come out yet. My feeling is that nothing will get “gutted”, that any changes to the social safety net will be like the changes to Medicare Advantage that was a part of the ACA. Obama knows that “gutting the social safety net” would NEVER get through Congress, and as I’ve stated before Obama is goal oriented.
JGabriel
Two thoughts:
1) I hope Obama is merely using this as a ploy to get Republicans on the record as to how much they want to cut Social Security, so Democrats can use it against them in the general.
2) If Obama agrees to Social Security cuts, and Democrats in Congress support it, then I will be an ex-Democrat.
.
Trollenschlongen
Frum is an ass, but here he is right.
And why DON’T the Dems rebel? Why DOES Obama keep giving away the store to lying, far right wing pigs who are no negotiating in good faith? One would almost think it’s because he WANTS to.
Again: Why DON’T you people rebel?
Baud
@mrmobi
Go ahead and back away. No voter cares about what is being considered. It’s the final deal that will matter, and no one has a clue about what that will be, or even if there will be one.
Chris
@ RP,
The semi-grown-up version of “OUR TURN. We DESERVE our payback.”
Difference being that frankly, not all issues are equal – fighting a bloody, ruinous, unwinnable war is not the same as providing assistance to those of your own citizens who need it. But hey, Both Sides Do It, ja?
Poopyman
Truly. What’s going on here just under the radar is a power struggle between Boehner and Cantor. How that plays out may be totally independent of how the debt talks turn out (probably not), but may actually have a more lasting impact.
JPL
homerhk
If the President watched Fox News for five minutes a week, he would discover that some are imbeciles.
Quiddity
@mrmobi: Whatever you think about the budget deal making and Frum’s opinions on that, he was correct to wonder why Obama didn’t fight more forcefully for Peter Diamond to get on the Fed. Where was the effort? None, to speak of.
This 3rd-year-into-the-presidency move by Obama is eerily similar to Jimmy Carter’s 3rd-year-into-the-presidency “malaise” speech. In both cases it’s like, dude, what are you thinking?
Baud
@Trollenschlongen
Um, nothing to rebel against? No deal has been announced. And you’re not going to rebel against negotiations that you want to be a part of.
OzoneR
What am I supposed to be mad about? That the President did what the left told him to do, “ignore them, they’re just bluffing, they’ll never do this” and now we’re fucked because of it?
Is that what I’m supposed to be mad about?
Linda Featheringill
lolis #16
Okay. Start from there. It is probably a fact that the House cannot pass a debt bill without Democratic votes since some of the idjits will vote No regardless of the details. Nancy is not likely to vote for any piece of legislation that undoes all the good she has worked so hard and so long far.
OzoneR
They don’t have principles, no one in America does. Americans only principle is to win.
paradox
My dearest asshole Tim F., I truly resent your snide condescension to my perfectly predictable and justified anger at the complete political clusterfuck that is the Obama administration. Go ahead and goad me on some more, motherfucker, (start your day with a dose of futile rage) my knife’s been in the forge again and the edge needs a lot of work.
I no longer actively engage in political writing because I can’t let the screaming insanity of it all smash my psyche, I’ve got problems. Post traumatic stress syndrome and cyclical vomiting syndrome.
My writing meant everything to me, it’s the only path to bring me so much in this awful life. For so long I was sure a voice of a little person was worth something, even as millions of little people have been crushed and killed in the last 3 years while DC yawned. When they weren’t masturbating with the Republicans.
So go ahead and sneer at me for having all my precious political principles shit upon, goad me and shit on my values as our people are tossed about in rage as their country and lives are being stolen from them.
My dear Tim F, hide in your pixels today for your life and your health. You ever see me personally in some fantastic occurrence life sometime twists at us, get the hell away fast. I’ve got a toolbox of terror and rage you don’t have a clue about, and would stab at you unmercifully with it if ever got the gleeful chance to do it. Don’t you ever sneer and good at my soul or country again, motherfucker, pixel stealth won’t work next time.
RP
I can kinda, sorta understand this attitude from a tea bagger. But Frum isn’t even endorsing this mentality, at least on the surface. He’s saying “it’s your fault that my side is acting like a bunch of dim-witted 6 years olds.” It’s truly bizarre.
Nemesis
OzoneeR
You are supposed to be mad that a sitting Dem President is offering up massive “entitlement” (hate that term) cuts in order to appear reasonable to moderates-who frankly arent even watching this debt debacle.
My only hope is that the WH knows the goopers cant/wont accept President Obamas latest plan (and BO knows this), because the plan calls for revenue increases the goopers own marching orders disallow.
burnspbesq
Meanwhile, Rick Perry is apparently willing to have the State of Texas kill someone in clear violation of international law.
http://opiniojuris.org/2011/07/07/will-the-supreme-court-or-rick-perry-stay-the-leal-execution/
I’m taking bets on whether it will beWyldPirate or AAA Bonds who will assert that there is no difference between Perry and Obama.
OzoneR
self-destruct how exactly? By destroying the country? Sorry, but you won’t even be able to afford the popcorn if you let them self-destruct.
RalfW
I don’t mean this personally to mrmobi, but this is the liberal expectations trap. I say: Ignore the techniques and look at the results.
There was a kerfluffle over Obama not stepping in to NY state and ruining the passage of marriage equality because people wanted the optics of a president standing up publicly. Meanwhile, DOJ filed a breathtaking brief that says that DOMA is crap. That is the Obama way. No muss, no fuss.
You can argue that it doesn’t do enough to motivate the base. But we have to be much more tactical to win against an opponent that has been refining its evil methods for decades, while Dems have been in four million heated but circular coalition meetings.
Too many people want presidential handwaving. Not enough people are satisfied with quiet results.
Quiddity
Why isn’t Obama hanging tough to satisfy the base, the way Goerge W. Bush did on most issues? Bush lost some fights, but at least there was a fight. Will there never be a showdown at the O.K. Corral with this guy?
Han's Solo
@Poopyman: That truly is the interesting dynamic: Bohner V. Cantor.
If Obama were a ruthless Machiavellian type he would be trying, subtly and silently, to drive a wedge between the Toothless Teabagger wing of the GOP and the Big Moneybagger wing of the GOP. The Teabaggers bring a lot of votes but not much money and the Moneybaggers bring a lot of money but not many votes. Separate the two and the GOP will go the way of the Whigs.
Of course, Obama is being rolled, and there is no way he could be smart enough to game that out. Only nutsack blogger types like me would ever think of such a thing!
Seriously, I think one of Obama’s greatest assets is that so many people, including people who are supposedly on his side, underestimate him. I get why that is; our last President was so pathetic it was hard to underestimate him. But Obama is not Bush.
OzoneR
Sorry, I told you this would happen in November. Elect Republicans, get entitlement cuts. End of story.
No one was talking about cutting Social Security when Dems were in the majority, not the President, not Congress.
This is just reality now.
Lolis
From HuffPo:
The Obama administration is pushing back against a Wednesday night report that the president is prepared to offer cuts to Social Security as part of a deal to raise the debt ceiling.
“The story overshoots the runway,” said a senior administration official. “The President said in the State of the Union that he wanted a bipartisan process to strengthen Social Security in a balanced way that preserves the promise of the program and doesn’t slash benefits.”
“While it is definitely not a driver of the deficit,” the official added, “it does need to be strengthened.”
Napoleon
Wow, that is 180 degrees opposite of what happened. In fact Obama right off the bat started negotiating with the Reps and never ignored them as he should have done.
If Obama had balls and competence he would have announced right off the bat that he was more than willing to negotiate over the budget when Congress was passing a budget resolution but he would not as part of a raise in the debt ceiling and that he would veto anything but a clean debt service bill.
Instead he is going to stick a knife in the back of the poorest and weakest in the country and get the Rep ass out of the fire they put it in with the Ryan bill.
ericblair
Silly, no. You’re supposed to get worked up about third-hand rumors from unknown sources relayed by political enemies with poor track records for accuracy about what’s possibly happening in the opening stages of a closed-door negotiation. This is iron-clad proof that OBAMA PRE-SOLD US OUT TO THE SOYLENT GREEN VATS HE’S WORSE THAN BUSH.
OzoneR
For the answer to this question, look what happened to the Republican Party in the latter years of the Bush term.
Having fights for the sake of having fights doesn’t mean electoral or political success.
Linda Featheringill
mrmobi #25
As I understand it, COLA is all that is being looked at.
What COLA? How long has it been since you’ve seen one? Unless you are special, it’s probably been a might long goddam time in spite of the stead rise in food prices. So if “they” do mess with COLA, will we notice the difference? Nah.
PurpleGirl
Not reading the thread… I can’t handle the politics today. President Obama, for all that he has tried to do and some of what he has accomplished, is becoming a disappointment. The rest of the Democratic field is too.
Look into what is called the “chained CPI”. Using it to calculate future COLAs for Social Security means that as one becomes OLDER the less you get.
It may be hyperbolic but I fear that I will truly live in poverty in my old age. Have a good day folks, I’m off to run some errands. I may be back later, in another thread, but, then again, maybe I won’t.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yeah, just bad timing on the part of the President, offering the idea up right in the middle of debt ceiling/deficit reduction talks. Ya gotta hand it to him tho, he’d sell his kids into sex slavery to make a deal.
Chinn Romney
That would be some of that 11 dimension chess. We mortals aren’t supposed to understand it, so pay no attention to your own lying eyes and make like a sheep.
OzoneR
Really, because the linked piece says otherwise
stuckinred
paradox –
nobody cares. . . nobody
handsmile
I think David Frum is a scumbag of the second order. Yet even with that perspective to filter his analysis, there is little that I find unpersuasive here.
His assessment that the Obama White House prematurely disclosed the “constitutional option” on the debt ceiling debate seems particularly astute. And no one in the comments above has disputed Frum’s claim of the trajectory of the revenue/entitlement cut ratio in the negotiations. is that a satisfactory example of “actually getting things done”?
When both Paul Krugman and Frum begin to sing from the same hymnal, Chicken Little starts to look like a prophet.
Also, what comfort is to be obtained from Richard Cohen’s and Bobo’s recent epistles expressing shock and horror at GOP lunacy? Since when has rhetorical consistency and ideological coherence (or for that matter rudimentary economic knowledge) been a hallmark of their punditry? If default occurs on Obama’s watch, they will be among the first to light the pyres.
RP
This would be funny if it didn’t capture the mindset of so many on the left so perfectly.
RalfW
Folks, you have to remember that Frum is a conservative. He may be sane and not want total amrageddon default, but he wants Obama to be a one-term president, I’m pretty sure. So you have to treat his call for rebellion from the left as a tactic against Obama.
I’m serious. He’s fomenting anger and panic. JC took the bait.
Han's Solo
@ericblair:
+1
4tehlulz
>JC took the bait.
Jesus Christ took it? Damn that is some powerful shit.
Or are we not bothering to check who posted something again?
OzoneR
This is really stupid. Republicans DO NOT WANT to raise the debt ceiling. Why wouldn’t they be more happy to have Obama veto it and then blame him for the resulting economic chaos?
OzoneR
What if there was a left rebellion and no one noticed because THERE IS NO LEFT.
The Moar You Know
@ paradox: Death threats against a front-pager are not the first thing I wanted to read this morning. Hope someone is taking the appropriate action.
Trollenschlongen
@stuckinred
That was an asshole comment.
Chris
@ RP,
First rule of politics; EVERYTHING is our side’s fault. Rule number two: when in doubt, see rule number one. Not only teabaggers but every breed of self-proclaimed “reasonable centrist” seems to endorse that mentality, probably because there are never any consequences for pissing off Dems.
OzoneR
What type of effort would you have preferred?
This is why I think fighting would never work, if he did, and lost, you wouldn’t admit he fought in the first place. I’ve said that over and over again and it’s been true over and over again.
RalfW
No.
Did you hear his speeches during the campaign? Did you understand that he is fundamentally a centrist technocrat consensus person? Did anyone?
And more fundamentally, would having a showdown at the O.K. corral achieve any result for the nation? I’m not being pollyanna, I’m serious.
This president, as far as I can tell, really wants what he sees as what’s best for the nation. Not what’s best for Democrats. Not what’s best for the Hamsherites.
What’s best for the nation.
We need a lot more Bobo moments of clarity so that the middle and sane right in this country get that the other guys couldn’t give one stinking shit for America.
Perhaps Obama needs to heighten the contrast. I think he is doing that in his Yoda way. We’ll see.
OzoneR
and the professional left bought into it, and liberals wonder why people think they’re such losers.
Linda Featheringill
ralfw #64
Do you mean that Tim took the bait?
But your point is valid. How much trust should we place in proven conservatives?
Really
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Wow. Just…wow. You’ve written some pretty shitty things on this blog before, but this is really truly disgusting and nasty, even for you.
Trollenschlongen
@ozone:
What if there was a left rebellion and no one noticed because THERE IS NO LEFT.
My dearest blind Obot: The “you people” whom a rational person would think might consider a rebellion are the Obots who elected him. Cuts to tax hikes at a six to one ratio? That’s some kind of change we can believe in!
Of course there is a LEFT. It’s just that the democratic party is way too far right now to give a shit about us.
RalfW
@4tehlulz
Oops.
TF took the bait.
Sorry.
OzoneR
ever consider that maybe they’re not “the left” and the Obots who elected him are fine with him.
I don’t know what idiot thought liberals elected Obama. Even Matt Stoller admitted Obama wasn’t their guy…in June 2008.
Linda Featheringill
To the very upset folks [perhaps justifiably]:
Why don’t you call your congresscritters now and talk about what would be acceptable and would not be acceptable?
There is nothing wrong with being proactive and it might do some good.
burnspbesq
@OzoneR:
You must not read FDL much. It’s an article of faith among manic progressives that they, and they alone, were responsible for Obama’s victory.
WyldPirate
@burnspbesq:
Obama had no problem letting another Chief Executive and his posse walk away after admitting to violating international law and numerous treaties, why should he have any problem now with Perry?
He seemingly has no problem with human rights abuses as his administration continues to hold them and seems willing to create a whole category of prisonors that are “too dangerous” to put on trial. Seems to me that is in direct violation of one of the oldest “rights’ of Western civilization–habeus corpus.
Obama is living up to past history when it comes to his “negotiating” tactics–give away half the farm before he even comes to the table. Yesterday, he basically gave the finger to nearly 20 million unemployed/underemployed people with his “structural unemployment” idiocy. He exercised piss-poor judgement hiring that idiot Larry Summers–who pimped the hell out of Gramm-Leech-Bililey. almost all of the criminals from the Wall St debacle that trashed the economy have walked away with trillions of dollars from their crimes even though it is clear that they trashed the lives and futures of tens of millions of people.
Don’t even get me started about the Afghanistan lunacy.
Yeah, you fuckwits keep on with the 11-dimensional chess horseshit. Obama is an old school New England Republican that is bending over for a bunch of lunatics on the far right.
burnspbesq
@Linda Feathergill:
Great advice, but it may be based on a misunderstanding about what’s going on here.
You are implicitly assuming that the upset people are interested in taking constructive action to eliminate the source of their upset.
I’d say it’s at least as likely that they just want to be upset, and wallow in their upset-ness for its own sake.
Sigh.
burnspbesq
I lose. I thought it would be AAA Bonds.
slightly_peeved
If the party in a majority in the house want to prevent legislation passing – and in the case of the debt ceiling, this is what we are talking about – how can any other party, including the president, stop them?
The Republicans have them over a barrel, because America voted them in in 2010, and the US political system has more inertia than any other on the planet. One house can shut down the entire government if they wish, and that’s what they’re currently doing.
It’s like complaining that the police have gone soft, since they’re being so nice to that hostage-taker.
WyldPirate
@Trollenschlongen:
No it wasn’t. Few people do care. Far more people are wound up over the Casey Anthony trial than they are over the negotiations over the debt ceiling. You have millions of Medicare recipients that are too goddamned stupid –or senile–to realize that it is a “government program”. They think that they are self-sufficient as they cruise around on their Medicare-bought Jazzy and suck down their Medicare supplied oxugen. You have at most 60-65% of the population that turnout for elections. some of them are too stupid or too lazy to find their polling station.
America is full of idiots. Many of them post here and believe Obama is going to stand for any principles before he gives in to whatever demands it takes to get re-elected.
Xenos
Manic progression is a frustrating mess.
Trollenschlongen
@ https://balloon-juice.com/2011/07/07/good-morning/#comment-2659452
WP, I was referring to stuck’s comment to paradox indicating that no one cares about paradox’s intense and possibly clinical despair.
mrmobi
Thanks for that, RalfW. I’m backing away from the edge right now. Going to have some tea (old person) and read “A Feast of Crows” right after I email my senator and rep telling them that Social Security should not be part of the so-called “Grand Bargain.”
Xenos
@Trollenschlongen:
Actually, it is pretty damned ingenious, so long as it is for public consumption only. Which it is.
Maybe I am just too legalistic, but it is worth trading a good chunk of the remaining New Deal to keep the GOP out of the presidency in 2012. We can rebuild the new deal, but another Republican presidency would truly be the end of the country.
WyldPirate
@burnspbesq:
Wrong, they are going to express their “upsetness” by staying at home and not voting in key states in ’12. You’re not going to have as many people turn out to work for Obama either for two reasons. First, the novelty of him has worn off and there will be complacency among some. Other’s will stay home in disgust.
The Rethugs will be fired up to get the Kenyan usurper out of office. Obama will play hell winning in NC and VA. He will have trouble in Florida and the Midwest. I think he will trouble even against the craziest thug out there should he/she get nominated; particularly if unemployment at 15%+.
mrmobi
Linda, I think you are right about this. I just did some additional reading, and it appears that what is being proposed is cutting the COLA rate, and there haven’t been any increases in a while, so perhaps this is much ado about nothing.
WyldPirate
@Trollenschlongen:
oh..sorry. That is kinda fucked up as I’ve been where paradox is. I wouldn’t have expected that out of stuckinred.
burnspbesq
@WyldPirate:
Thank you for proving my point. Acting against your own self-interest out of pique sure sounds like a rational strategy to me. Or do you really, sincerely believe that we will be better off under President Bachmann?
NobodySpecial
Burns:
According to your argument, there are millions of Republicans acting against their self-interest out of pique, and have been for decades. In return, they’ll be getting what they want. People see that it works. People have also seen Democrats compromise to protect the most rightward in the party, and the results have been…the degradation and depletion of Democratic power bases and continued advancement of Republican operating assumptions and outcomes.
Han's Solo
@burnspbesq: Not only that, but if the deal includes ANY tax increases a great big chunk of the Teabagger base will either stay home or (hopefully) line up behind a third party candidate.
Phoenix
We need some polemic for if this hits the fan.
The Republicans forced us into bankruptcy is a good start.
The Republicans foreclosed on America
They gave up on us being a superpower
They turned us into a banana republic
They have no interest or ability in governance, simply power
urizon
@Phoenix
How about simply calling it “the Republican plan to wreck the global economy”? That what it is, after all.
Every Democrat possible should go on television and use this phrase over, and over, and over, and over again until it’s the only thing the villagers can talk about.
And, of course, it won’t happen. Why? Because it would be impolite to do so. Wouldn’t want to rile David Broder’s corpse now, would we?
MomSense
@Nobody Special
“People have also seen Democrats compromise to protect the most rightward in the party”
I would change your sentence to read. “People have also seen Democrats compromise to” get legislation passed through Congress.
But here is an example that proves your point about protecting the more conservative Dems. The reason that the President didn’t push for a vote on tax increases for those earning 250K or more was because Sen. Reid and extreme conservative Russ Feingold asked him to wait until after the election. He protected the “most rightward” (NOT!!) in the party and had to wait until the lame duck when his hand was significantly weakened to cut a deal.
burnspbesq
@ NobodySpecial:
“According to your argument, there are millions of Republicans acting against their self-interest out of pique, and have been for decades”
Yup. Working-class and middle-class Americans who vote Republican are like working-class Protestants in Ulster who supported Loyalist parties. They didn’t recognize who their real enemy was.
If you want to be pessimistic about out future, consider that it took the working-class Protestants in Ulster 300 years to figure it out.
MomSense
@Phoenix #97
How about the Republicans ran up the debt on the credit card and then skipped out on the bill.
The Republicans are the party of personal responsibility until it is time to pay the bill.
The Republicans only care about taking down this President and they don’t care how many good, hardworking Americans they hurt/destroy in the process.
Ooh or The Republicans think taxes are only for little people.
Sasha
In all fairness, who really could imagine that the GOP would go so rightward that they didn’t merely drive off the road, they achieved near-earth orbit.
Comrade Kevin
Uh, do you not realize that the biggest party in Northern Ireland is the DUP, one of the crazier Loyalist parties, who are actually supported mostly by working-class Protestants?
burnspbesq
Your characterization of the DUP may have been accurate in the past, but it’s way off base now. Support for a 12.5 percent corporate income tax rate, which was included in the DUP’s manifesto for last year’s Parliamentary elections, is in effect support for an economically unified Ireland, and if economic union comes, political union will follow.
Rick Taylor
I’m not happy with the administration these days either, but I think there are better critics than Frum.
les
amk said all that needed to be said:
Frum’s only talent is to make apparently reasonable arguments, and draw completely irrelevant and wrong conclusions. Fucking wingnut welfare.
Comrade Kevin
@burnsesq:
Actually, I think we are both correct. While the DUP had some things like that tax rate in their manifesto, the way they actually appeal to voters still mostly amounts to something along the lines of “Vote for us, or the IRA and Dublin will take over”.
Alex
How it is possible that each time is different. The truth is, it’s not. Tell us what you would do about the deficit with our polls later this week. http://bit.ly/Votocracy
BombIranForChrist
But John Cole will call me bad names unless I vote for Obama no matter what, because Palin! The GOP is worser.
Don’t get mad at the GOP. Get mad at yourself.