This will come across as callous and unfeeling, but this makes absolutely no sense to me:
Last summer, three weeks before her due date, Sari Edber delivered a stillborn son, Jacob. “He was 5 pounds and 19 inches, absolutely beautiful, with my olive complexion, my husband’s curly hair, long fingers and toes, chubby cheeks and a perfect button nose,” she said.
The sudden shift from what she called “a perfectly wonderful healthy pregnancy” to delivering a dead infant was unfathomably painful, said Ms. Edber, 27, who lives in Los Angeles with her husband, Daniel.
“The experience of giving birth and death at the exact same time is something you don’t understand unless you’ve gone through it,” Ms. Edber said. “The day before I was released from the hospital, the doctor came in with the paperwork for a fetal death certificate, and said, ‘I’m sorry, but this is the only document you’ll receive.’ In my heart, it didn’t make sense. I was in labor. I pushed, I had stitches, my breast milk came in, just like any other mother. And we deserved more than a death certificate.”
So Ms. Edber joined with others who had experienced stillbirth to push California legislators to pass a bill allowing parents to receive a certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth.
In the last six years, 19 states, including New Jersey, have enacted laws allowing parents who have had stillbirths to get such certificates. Similar legislation is under consideration in several more, among them New York. More than 25,000 pregnancies a year end in stillbirth, generally defined as a naturally occurring, unintentional intrauterine death after more than 20 weeks of gestation. A cause for the death is usually not determined.
To thousands of parents who have experienced stillbirth, getting a birth certificate is passionately important, albeit symbolic.
I understand losing a child at birth or before birth is horrible, I see absolutely no reason that a legal administrative document should be given to people simply for symbolic reasons, and, to boot, it is sort of creepy. Additionally, I am sure that the right-to-life groups will seize on this for more legislative advances in their war on abortion.
Andrew
How else are you going to prove that it’s your dead baby when you take it home for the other kids to snuggle with?
Bubblegum Tate
That, really, is the entire point. And yes, that’s pretty fucking gross.
ed
My wife and I lost a pregnancy to a miscarriage. It was painful, but this seems unnecessary, at best.
Tom Hilton
I’m with you, John. As far as I can tell, the organization agitating for dead-baby birth certificates isn’t itself anti-choice, but the concept obviously plays to their agenda.
To me, this illustrates the absurdity of the thing: there’s already a death certificate; the baby has died before it is ‘born’; so what we’re talking about here is a situation in which the birth certificate would have to be dated after the death certificate. Does that not strike anyone as supremely silly?
Missy Hunter
How would any of you know? Unless you’ve pushed out a dead baby after 36 hours of labor on his due date, you’d have NO clue.
Don’t even respond to something about which you are clearly clueless. Instead, educate yourselves or shut up.
Bombadil
It’s not about the baby, you see, it’s all about her. It sounds like she wants some kind of achievement award, not proof of birth.
And that’s the only reason this won’t be dismissed as foolishness out of hand.
John Cole
Hi. Welcome to Appeal to Pity, a popular logical fallacy.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-pity.html
Missy Hunter
I’m quite familiar with fallacious arguments. I’m not appealing to pity. I suggesting you educate yourself about the issue, and if you cannot adequately do so, then you should not demonstrate your ignorance by speaking to something about which you have no historicultural education or awareness.
You should also be familiar with Sagan’s critique of the fallacious argument of the slippery slope? Sounds like you’re all sleeping with that fallacy.
Kimmitt
Actually, it’s the antisex crowd’s use of the tool which gives me pause.
Why not have a birth certificate which has a category for “infant born deceased, unresuscable”? — for any infant born after the 20th week of pregnancy (the point at which statistics shift from miscarriage to stillbirth)? It’s as reasonable a way to keep vital statistics as any, and if it assists in the grieving process for parents, so much the better.
I mean, her kid was 5 pounds and change, a bit small for a viable infant but well within the range of actual babies. There’s a case to be made.
Mr Furious
Or pose it for your family portrait, a la Santorum.
This is all about moving the line and granting status to the fetus.
What’s next? “This Stillbirth Certificate helps, but I really won’t feel complete without a social security number…”
Pb
I think it’s more of an appeal to authority, with a little Bill O’Reilly charm thrown in for good measure.
Missy Hunter
Mr Furious,
Guess what? Did you know that if a pre-viable fetus is born at 17 weeks gestation (at this age might weigh 1/2 lb) and takes ONE breath, it will receive a Cert of LIVE Birth? This a current statute in every state. Has been since the inception of vital records in this country.
Conversely, did you know that if a fullterm, viable baby weighing 10 lbs dies one minute before birth, the family is required to bury or cremate by law and is issued a death cert but the mother is refused a birth certificate?
Seems that if there is any loophole in the law that threatens “the line” as you say, its the former rather than the latter, and pro-choice forces should focus on THAT.
Missy Hunter
And thank you Kimmitt for the voice of reason.
Mr Furious
Alright, I read the article. The stories are certainly moving and tragic, but I still see no need for states to issue legal documents to fill a commemorative and emotional need. Issuing a only a death certificate might seem cold, but if the baby was dead in utero, there was no “birth.”
That being the case, it does seem odd that the state issues a death certificate for a being that never had a birth certificate…
I would be willing to countenance issuing a Stillbirth Certificate that functions legally as a birth/death certificate. One document covering all the bases… No individual or seperate Birth Certificate.
Tax Analyst
So this is what, an “Honorable Mention” type of thing? How about, “We’re sorry you didn’t win, but we want to thank you for playing ‘The Reproductive Process’. Like all contestant’s on this show you will receive a CSB (Certificate of Stillbirth) and a Special CD version of our Theme song, ‘Stillborn After All These Years’ to take home and wallow over.
Yes, that’s a callous remark, but I agree this initiative seems to bear the distinct odor of “Right-to-Life” type manipulative posturing – to be used as a handy vehicle for your favorite pandering Republican political candidate to hop aboard for 2008. With that in mind I think “callous cynicism” is an appropriate response.
Yes, it’s sad to lose a child during the gestation period, but there is no valid reason for any legislative action to create a special certificate. And while far be it for me to tell people how to deal with their grief, this seems an entirely counter-productive action. After receiving this “Official Certificate” just what do these people want it to do? And what are they going to do with it? Hang it on the wall? Put it in the “Baby Scrapbook” they bought early in the pregnancy…the one they hoped to fill with memorable dates and occurences in their child’s early life? That strikes me as a sure-fire recipe for depressed melancholy.
If that’s how people want to deal with the loss, well, I guess they can…but there is no good reason for the government to become involved in the process…maybe there is some group out there that helps folks deal with this specific type of loss that would be willing to handle such paperwork…or better yet, suggest a better way to handle their sadness.
T
Good lord. If someone wants a birth certificate for their stillborn baby, why not give it to them? Where’s the harm? Why be such assholes?
Sirkowski
I can see the Hallmark card, “Better luck next time!”
Rome Again
Symbolism of any sort is the bane of my existence. I abhor it completely.
Mr Furious
Missy-
I wrote my second comment before reading your reply. Let me respond… The key here is, as you mentioned, Certificate of LIVE Birth. That baby (even 17 weeks, was born alive, drew breath and presumably exhibited all the medical definitions of being alive, heartbeat, brain activity, etc.
A stillborn shild is not alive. Creating a legal status of being alive for the emotional benefit of the parents (or whoever) is dubious, and should be carefully considered. As a hot-button topic, it is sure to be judged too quickly on both sides. Repub legislatures and governors will likely leap at the chance to enact this stuff, while Dems will be wary, but feel pressure…
Both are wrong.
S.W. Anderson
Some people take these things very seriously, not just in an emotional, bereaved-parent-to-be way, but in a family heritage way as well. If having a certificate of birth/stillborn brings some kind of comfort or satisfaction, it’s an easy enough and reasonable enough thing to do for them. It’s part of their family experience and history, and tangible.
As for the right-to-life angle, I think this issue brings up a point too little understood and appreciated by both sides in that never-ending struggle: a whole lot of pregnancies fail for reasons other than deliberate abortions. Many of the failures, whether spontaneous abortion, miscarriage or stillbirth, are due to serious abnormalities. It’s probably nature’s way of keeping the human race from being burdened with too many too-weak and too-dependent young.
Think of that dynamic not in today’s terms, but going back millions of years, when families, clans and tribes stuggled mightily to survive, just getting shelter and enough to eat. Back then, lifespans were extremely short and a steady supply of young hunters and defenders was vital.
I think the right-to-lifers push the idea nature’s way is for nearly all pregnancies to end in a happy, healthy new life. That’s not quite the full, accurate story.
Pb
That’s what I find creepiest about this mindset–the idea that if the government doesn’t issue you a piece of paper, it didn’t happen? What happened to the small-government conservatives, again?
Birth certificates have a purpose, and they aren’t for the mother or the father–they’re for the child. It isn’t an affirmation of life, it’s an identification document that you might need later in life.
But heck, if you’re going to push the line back, why not push it back all the way. Have birth certificates issued at the time of conception, along with social security cards. Then adopt all the zygotes you can, keep ’em frozen, and watch the money come rolling in!
ImJohnGalt
Tax Analyst, if you haven’t personally carried a child to term, spent 5 painful days in labour and then experienced the devastating news that your child was stillborn, no matter how lucid your arguments might be or how insightful your analyses, we can put our hands over our ears and say “la-la-la-la-la” rather than address the substance of your posting.
Apparently, unless you’ve written a PhD thesis on the topic, you are appallingly unaware or unable to conceive (sorry for that) of what a family in such circumstances might be going through, nor are you capable of proposing reasonable reasons why perhaps the issuance of a birth certificate might not be appropriate.
In other news, nobody will ever be allowed to post again on the Internets.
Missy Hunter
Mr Furious,
Thank you for your response. I did find it interesting that you assert there was no birth. Um…what happened to the body? We’re not talking about miscarriages here. These are real babies, weighing 7,8,9,10 and 11 lbs. The body doesn’t magically disappear. She has to give BIRTH. And doesn’t a Cert of LIVE Birth they already issue imply there is ANOTHER kind of birth? Sure it does. These women are just asking for a Cert of Still Birth. Makes sense to me, and I’d sure want one.
I think most of these women could care less if there is a death cert, so it would be fine to do away w/that. The death cert, though, is req’d because they can’t bury or cremate without one.
Tax Analyst- you have no clue what you’re talking about. The most infuriating thing about Americans today is that we spout our big mouths with absolutely no cultural, historical, legal, political, or social knowledge of that which we speak. Truly, philosophically, discouraging. We’ve become a nation of lazy ideologues who knee-jerkingly respond with our pointless, mindless opinions of things we do not understand.
Mr Furious
This is an interesting debate, but enacting legislation and creating new classifications of vital records for the commemorative and emotional needs of a few distraught parents (or those using that as a pretense) sounds like a bad idea to me.
Tim F.
If this becomes compulsory it will create an official government record of everybody who has an abortion. The problem is that birth certificates are not like honorary mayorships or keys to the city where you can just hand them out or not as you see fit. Giving it to one person creates an intolerable legal contradiction, unless one wants to make the argument that everybody in her situation should have one. I can imagine many who would like to make that argument.
Missy Hunter
Mr Furious,
The bills are proposing Cert of Still Birth or Cert of Birth resulting in Stillbirth.
So, they acknowledge the difference indeed.
Also, note that pro-choice groups are now supporting this apparently cited in an article I found in Stateline. The National Organization for Women came out in support. So, all the hulabaloo over nothing but misinformation and miseducation- and frankly, ignorance.
The Other Steve
Ok, educate us.
Tim F.
I would be interested to see the ref for that. If those groups don’t care then I don’t have any issues with it.
Missy Hunter
Jesus H. Christ Tim F.
Do you fucking read dude? It’s for stillbirths NOT abortions. Mutually exclusive. They are defined differently, and one occurs naturally at LATE TERM to viable, healthy babies.
Abortion has nothing to do w/this.
Missy Hunter
The Stateline article. It was easy to find. Takes just a wee bit of effort…Just search it.
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=208701
RSA
For better or worse, birth is a hard dividing line. It makes sense that a certificate of live birth would be appropriate for fetuses delivered alive, but not otherwise. That said, I don’t see anything wrong with a state providing a “certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth”, as the linked article describes it. Federal and state governments provide other ceremonial and commemorative products and services: vanity license plates, flag ceremonies, funeral services, named buildings and roads, and so forth. The article mentions that certificates, where available, are at a fee. Aside from the issue potentially being hijacked by the pro-life movement, I think it’s not a big deal.
The Other Steve
I don’t buy the slippery slope argument. Never have. Never bought it from the NRA either.
I think it’s a big waste of time and money, but if it makes someone feel better. Ohwell.
It’s not like the certificates actually have to be filed anywhere. The hospital can print one and hand it out. No need to keep any copies, or that sort of thing. It’s sort of like how I have a certificate on my wall from Sensitivity Training. It’s just a piece of paper.
Rome Again
How long before we see people of ill repute using these certificates to create new identities? I wonder.
Paperwork is something most people try to avoid, even those who deal with paperwork on a regular basis. Many paperpushers try to NOT get involved in the details. I could see this happening pretty easily.
ImJohnGalt
Wow, somebody needs some Paxil. Aside from the Hallmark comment, everyone on this thread appears to have responded with some degree of good faith to the original post. I’m not sure why you’re ratcheting up the anger, Ms. Hunter, but using the dark side of force is likely to attract Darrell.
Just sayin’.
Missy Hunter
Oh, sorry- it was the ACLU who came out in support.
Representatives of national abortion-rights organizations, including the Guttmacher Institute, the Center for Reproductive Rights, Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project and NARAL Pro-Choice America told Stateline.org they take a NEUTRAL position on the stillborn birth-certificate issue.
Pb
Yeah, Tim F., what’s your problem? I mean, what kind of idiot would make that mistake?
Oh, right…
Rome Again
Maybe right now it doesn’t, but it could, and you would aid and abet that without even realizing it.
The Other Steve
It’s really quite simple. I can create a Microsoft Word template if that would help.
Mr Furious
Sorry, still not compelling enough for the state to get involved. Your family or church (or whatever) can work out all the heritage details as necessary.
There is a flip side to this… creating legal documents to satisfy this emotional and symbolic/commermorative event opens the door to gay marriage. Or at least undermines the agrguments against it.
Missy Hunter
Sorry Galt and Tim. It’s frustrating. I’ve been watching this movement from the inside and the outside for some time. And it’s frustrating when people who don’t understand make statement that are not based on fact.
BTW, the NOW in California also said in that article that they support it. Sure they’re careful about the language. I think the bills proponents want them to be careful. It’s understandable. But there is a way around to negotiate it so it’s fair for all womens choices.
Andrew
I think a powerpoint slide show is more appropriate, because then you can have animations of dead babies flying into to pick up their birth certificates.
Missy Hunter
What is wrong with gay marriage?
Otto Man
I’ve had several friends experience the tragedy of a stillborn baby, and I know it’s an incredibly painful moment that stays with such couples. But I just can’t understand what value a piece of notarized paper from the state bureaucracy is going to do to help their pain. What use would it have?
Seriously, a birth certificate exists not as an award ribbon for new parents, but as legal verification of the child’s origins — especially for citizenship and age-of-maturity purposes — as that child goes through life. A stillborn child, by virtue of not being alive, is never going to need that documentation. So why burden the state with this duty?
And as Tim notes, if enacted, this wouldn’t be optional. Every couple who went through this tragedy would, like it or not, have it compounded by the involvement of the state and the issuing of the paperwork. Seems not just pointless, but cruel.
zzyzx
I’m not quite clear as to what the birth certificate is supposed to accomplish (other than helping out people who want to create new identities; birth certificates of people who died before they ever would have requested SSNs or other paperwork are gold if you want to get other government documents). Is the horror here really the lack of a piece of paper?
T
Gotta say I’m with Missy on this one. There’s a huge, huge difference between allowing voluntary birth certificates for stillbirths and mandating them for abortions. You change the header from “certificate of live birth” to “certificate of birth”, stick on a checkbox that says “stillbirth”, and make the law clear that they’re optional for stillbirths and mandatory for live births. Not exactly an “intolerable legal contradiction”. And Tim F., someone suggests optional certificates for stillbirths, and you’re arguing against mandatory certificates for abortions? Something tells me there’s a logical fallacy there too – can someone tell me what it’s called?
Missy Hunter
The law is optional in every state. The language I’ve read states that families have to pay for it so of course its optional. Gosh, I guess I wonder why we dont just listen to the people themselves and let them decide. If women want it, they pay for and get it. If they don’t, no problem.
Rome Again
Exactly.
Davebo
Or for the financial benefit. If, a birth certificate was issued with a date/time prior to the death certificate, wouldn’t the family be eligable for the deduction for that year?
Zifnab
Which is more or less the bottom line. Offering the parents a birth certificate for their dead baby makes about as much sense as offering the child a hunting license or a driving permit or a university degree. These aren’t just “feel good” pieces of paper, they’ve got serious legal backing to them. What happens if a parent can somehow work the child into his Life Insurance plan off of this? Or somehow string out medicare payments? Or claim tax credits for the year? Do you really want to open the door to dead-babies-for-profit? Let the church or the community center or the family find an outlet for the mother’s grief. But pieces of paper won’t bring the baby back. It’ll just make a legal headache.
Of course, one could make the arguement that if you can offer someone a Death Certificate, at one point in time the person was due a Birth Certificate. The only thing that makes less sense than a post-dated BC is a DC for something that was never legally “alive”.
Mr Furious
Yup. *
*NOTE: I am not an accountant, but I know people who had babies under the wire (Dec 31) for this express purpose.
Missy Hunter
Why make the family pay for burial and why give a death certificate to someone who never was?
So far, everyone here has failed to address this basic, philosophic inconsistency.
If a woman gave birth to a baby who died during that birth and wants a birth certificate, who are you- or who am I- to say she cannot have one?
Sure, birth certificates are used for various things throughout a person’s life that require legal documentation. They are also used to record a birth, a name, the fact that someone existed. Babies who die at one minute of age can get a birth certificate. Why not do away with those too?
Really, there are some significant inconsistencies in the law, not to mention data and record keeping.
Missy Hunter
Wrong again Mr Furious. These certs do not allow for a SSN. You must have a Cert of LIVE Birth to get an SSN. Thus, you can’t get a tax deduction.
The article did note that some families in some states can get a one-time tax exemption for the burial costs, around $2k. I know for my sons the burials were more than $6 all together.
Davebo
Please note, I’m not claiming that people are clamoring for this in order to get a tax writeoff.
But I do wonder how many, given the certificate, would go ahead and take advantage of the deduction.
Missy Hunter
You cannot get a deduction. See above.
ThymeZone
Well, then, why stop at a phony birth certificate? Why not also have a High School Diploma, a US Savings Bond in the dead child’s name? Why not enroll the remains in school?
How about a free meal at Denny’s on the kid’s non-birthday?
I see a whole slew of good things that can be done here to make the bereaved parents feel better. And feeling better is what government is for, right?
zzyzx
The body still exists. Someone has to pay for that.
I’m not married to the idea of not giving out birth certificates, but you’re not really selling me on it either. I did have a friend who gave birth to a stillborn and I attended the funeral she had. It was sad and horrible and I helped in every way I could, but for the life of me I don’t see how forcing the State of Washington to issue paperwork would make things better.
canuckistani
I guess if the would-be parent needs documentation for medical expenses/medical leave, I can see a reason for it, but a doctor’s note would do just as well for that. Beyond that, I can’t see the point, other than crack the door open a bit more to having fetuses declared legal persons.
Missy Hunter
ZZ-
Why not let HER decide that? Why take that away from her? Make it optional. The state makes some money, some moms will feel better, and who does it hurt?
Thyme Zone-
Yours doesn’t even warrant a response.
RSA
Here’s a thought: Do away with Certificates of Live Birth; replace them with Certificates of Citizenship. Unless I’m missing something (like tax issues), that should be the only real interest the government takes in the event in any case.
Kimmitt
Dang, Tim F. has a point. Okay, now I’m reluctantly against.
My three issues are:
1) Accurate statistics. We need to know how many folks are being born, dying, having miscarriages, having stillbirths, etc. in order to make good policy decisions.
2) Concern for the feelings of those involved in miscarriages and stillbirths. If this helps, that’s an obvious social good.
3) Concern for the privacy of those who make the decision to have late-period abortions, generally for health reasons, and slippery slopes associated with that privacy.
I’m still working on threading the needle.
ThymeZone
Why not? Are you so addicted to bathos that you can’t see how fucking absurd this is?
ImJohnGalt
Missy, you say this:
as though it’s a convenient second use. Now, I may be setting myself up to be throttled by taunts of ignorance from you, but it seems to me that this is the express purpose of a birth certificate, isn’t it?
Now, tell me that someone wants a certificate of stillbirth, that has no legal standing and can be printed by a hospital, and looks nothing like a birth certificate (that is, cannot simply have the mark in the “stillbirth” box removed to fraudulently apply for identification), and I’m like, ‘meh’.
As angry as you seem to have gotten at some people here for their ignorance and non-responsiveness, I’d really appreciate it if you would respond to the people who are asking if this needs to be an official legal government document, or can just be an unofficial document issued by the hospital? Seriously, as someone said above, a birth certificate isn’t for the parents.
ThymeZone
Anybody who still thinks that government is supposed to govern, not serve as a concierge at the Touchy Feely Hotel of Sniveling Perpetual Victims.
I know, how about a special license plate for people who have ever had a death in the family?
Missy Hunter
Okay Galt, I’ll try to explain again.
If the state issues a death certificate for these babies, and tells me I have to bury or cremate, then yes, of course I should have the option of receiving a birth certificate from the state.
If the state does not issue death cert, and is willing to foot the bill for the funeral/final disposition, then I have no foundation upon which to build an argument for an optional cert of still birth.
Obviously, as a mom of two stillborn sons (both at full term, both died just before they were born, they were twins and died of hospital negligence), I prefer the first scenario.
But if the government wants to pay the bill, so be it, and I don’t have any claim. I would rather pay myself, and just be able to get my sons’ birth certificates. It is important to me as someone who went through it.
Bubblegum Tate
Even in literature? Zut alors!
Pb
My understanding is that the government has two categories here–live births, and fetal deaths. I have a live birth certificate, but I won’t ever have a “report of fetal death”–when I die, I’ll get a death certificate instead.
Punchy
I, too, say that every mother who gives birth to a stillborn recieve a copy of a Death Certificate.
Word, G.
ThymeZone
What disposition did you want?
Zifnab
Wait. So your entire arguement for a Birth Certificate hinges on who disposes of the remains? That doesn’t make a lick of sense.
ThymeZone
Once the government is compelled to start issuing certificates when something really sad or profound happens ….
Are we going to get Special Certificates for couples who really want a child, and fail a pregnancy test?
Maybe those documents could be included right in the pregnancy test package. If the test is negative, then applying the urine to the document would reveal the text “Certificate of Non Pregnancy,” suitable for framing?
Missy Hunter
Zifnab
Why not?
We dont mandate people bury or cremate amputate limbs? Or cancerous organs?
The argument is philosophic in nature.
And simple. Let me take you through this step-by-step:
1. Baby dies during his birth
2. State tells me I have to pay to bury him.
3. State issues me a death certificate.
4. I call the state and ask for a birth certificate, since, after all, I did have to give birth, bury, and am issued a death certificate.
How can you die if you never were?
You all seem intelligent. You do understand philosophical inconsistencies, right?
jh
This is quite a logical leap. Says who?
Death Certificate = cremate or bury.
Period. End of story.
How you get from there to the need for a birth certificate that serves no functional administrative purpose is beyond me.
ThymeZone
Sure, and we understand a sudden shift from “Poor me, mah babies died, pity me and issue me a certificate …. ”
to …
“Who pays for the burial, and why can’t I get a certificate?” in three hours flat.
I have $50 that says you’re a guy, and your whole schtick here is spooapalooza.
Missy Hunter
Did she or didn’t she give birth?
The World Health Organization defines birth clearly. And the baby doesn’t have to be “LIVE” to be born. In fact, they also define, separately, “LIVE birth”.
Jackmormon
I suppose an alternative is declaring the child “medical waste.” That way the parents wouldn’t have to pay for the disposal, and I suppose it would cut down on the administrative cost associated with death certificates.
Tulkinghorn
But why? The birth certificate is a legal document and serves a legal purpose. A birth certificate for a stillborn baby is as significant as a deed to some acreage on the surface of the sun.
I am sure I sound like the typical bloodless lawyer. Having stood by my wife for five deliveries, including one pretty scary one, I would have been utterly devastated to lose a child in birth. But it would never occur to me to ask for some sort of certificate to make the horror official. Maybe the insult of going home with nothing but a discharge form and some bills is too much further trauma.
Still, there is too much room for mischief, both political and in terms of fraud, for this policy to make sense.
Punchy
Then add signature lines for about 6 additional government paper-pushers, a few new Excel spreadsheet entries, a new file cabinet folder, and calc whatever many hours that all takes and multiply that number by probably $15. Easy and simple. Uh huh.
I’m with ThymeZone. Why stop at birth certs? Why not hand out some phony diploma in political science, a driver’s license with 2 points deducted, a minor-in-possession and disorderly conduct citations, followed by a law degree, marriage license, and then name a damn star in the A39238FR1 super crab nebula galaxy after him/her. THAT should please the parents.
Missy Hunter
Thyme Zone,
You’ve finally said something to which I can respond.
I’m not a guy, and I’ll take that $50.
I am all woman, 38-26-35, woman. I’m a strong, powerful, intelligent woman. I have, however, always wished I had a penis, just so I could swing it around like a helicopter.
And so I would never know what it was like to give birth to two dead babies because of an incompetent doctor.
Pb
ThymeZone,
I want some recognition for the millions upon millions of sperm who never got a chance to advance further in life. Identifying and naming them all, printing up all the certificates, and making the individual burial plots could take a while, though–but that’s far better than resorting to the atrocity of mass graves!
ThymeZone
Maybe you should apply for citizenship in their country?
tBone
Funniest line of this thread so far. Kudos.
Missy Hunter
PB-
I’m pretty sure you don’t have millions of sperm. Evolution should have precluded you from procreation at all.
There should be a baseline IQ for sperm production.
zzyzx
“Why not let HER decide that? Why take that away from her? Make it optional. The state makes some money, some moms will feel better, and who does it hurt?”
First, the state profits from BCs? I didn’t know that.
Who it hurts is mainly the state governments who are spending their time debating this – and once anyone on either side of the debate thinks it might factor into the abortion issue, it’s going to take some time – all for a completely symbolic issue. This is a perfect case for the private sector to come into play and make certificates. I don’t see why this is so important that there has to be a law.
jh
Well I thought we were talking about Birth Certificates issued by US states, that serve the functional administrative purpose of establishing the identity of living people who will actually have a use for one, not classifications by international NGOs.
Look, I’m as empathetic as the next guy, and I can certainly relate to the pain of losing a child, but this whole thing is of dubious worth to anybody other than the bereaved.
Neither the deceased fetus or its parents be needing a birth certificate for any practical use, so there’s no need to issue one.
It’s just zany.
jh
Well I thought we were talking about Birth Certificates issued by US states, that serve the functional administrative purpose of establishing the identity of living people who will actually have a use for one, not classifications by international NGOs.
Look, I’m as empathetic as the next guy, and I can certainly relate to the pain of losing a child, but this whole thing is of dubious worth to anybody other than the bereaved.
Neither the deceased fetus or its parents be needing a birth certificate for any practical use, so there’s no need to issue one.
It’s just zany.
ThymeZone
You can tell by the taste, hon.
grumpy realist
Well, if we have “birth certificates for stillbirths”, what’s to stop a group of mourning women to insist on having “birth certificates for miscarriages” down the line? Then we’ll get the argument that whatever-you’re-carrying-inside-you is “alive” and has all the rights and privileges as a “human.”
That’s what I see people being worried about. The camel’s nose under the tent. Legal ramifications no one ever thought of at the beginning.
And no, arguing about “the pain of the poor mothers” is not a good counter-argument. We have had enough legal stupidity enacted “because it’s for the CHIIIILDREN!!!” Now it’s “oh, for the poor MOTHERS!” If you really feel strongly about it, go have a mass for the dead, or whatever. Don’t upend the US legal system simply because of your hurt feelings.
(I think we’re not going to solve the whole abortion thing until we go through an entire period of total prohibition again and discover how many dead women this produces.)
Missy Hunter
Has anyone here studied the promulgation of social problems? Ten times more babies die from stillbirth than SIDS. Yet, there is no accurate data on it, and until 2003, no research.
How do you suppose we could reduce those numbers (which by the way, cost significant amounts of money in economic/employer losses)?
By paying attention to it. By listening to those experiencing it.
And btw, my money is ALWAYS on the NGOs over any government agency. Government is inefficacious and reckless.
zzyzx
In 5 seconds of looking, here’s a pro life activist already trying to use the same consistency argument to make these laws apply for abortions:
http://bluewavecanada.blogspot.com/2007/05/moms-of-stillborn-children-lobby-for.html
The slippery slope does exist I guess.
ThymeZone
All the more reason to put it in charge of maudlin bathos and perpetual victimhood.
Tulkinghorn
You may be grumpy, but you are a realist, and I am afraid you are right.
Andrew
How many dead babies does it take to change a light bulb?
Wait, is it too soon after 9/11 for that?
ThymeZone
If you are talking to me ….. (shhhh …) …. it’s an act.
In real life, I pretty much look and talk exactly like the Geico gecko.
Missy Hunter
zzyzx,
I understand the anti-abortion forces will like this. That is why the language needs to be written carefully. But just because they like it, doesn’t mean it is a threat in any way.
You’ve don’t have to have a juris doctorate to get this.
Tulkinghorn
That is because government employees are constrained by the law. Good luck standing up for your rights against an NGO!
What would rather have, a right to food stamps, or a right to receive charity if a NGO feels like giving it to you? And we all know what happens when people rely on the UN for military protection.
Pb
Missy Hunter,
I didn’t actually claim to, but if you think that, then that’s just because you’re profoundly ignorant on this subject (and thus, by your ridiculous standards, should have shut up long ago).
Et tu, Missy?
ImJohnGalt
Pb, perhaps she was intuiting that you have an abnormally low sperm count.
Tulkinghorn
Sorry, TZ, I was agreeing with ‘Grumpy Realist’, who I assume is not your sock-puppet.
Missy Hunter
PB
I know how the male reproductive organ works, and I understand sperm production. You’ve, apparently, missed my double entendre. Too bad. It was funny.
Tulkinghorn,
It’s off subject, but frankly, I’d rather not have the government provide me any food stamps. I’d rather strip for a living than take government welfare. Talk about paternalism. Let neighborhood NGOs help those who need it in communities, cut out the 99% of each dollar wasted, and invest more in localilities.
ThymeZone
He’s not, but like me, he’s also a corporate character. He is the Aflac Duck, in fact. (He has a way of making his voice sound exactly like Gilbert Gottfried).
We do a great Duck & Lizard act when we get together.
Tulkinghorn
Hate to be a legalistic snot, but anytime you pass a law with no legal effect you are just asking for trouble. A primary rule of statutory interpretation is a law should be read assuming that there is no surplus or meaningless language. In short, if congress passes something, they must intend for it to have a legal meaning.
What you are proposing would be very strong support for person status under the constitution for the unborn. If 20 states passed such laws I am very confident Scalia would hang all sorts and anti-abortion restrictions on these laws. He is smart enough and intellectually dishonest enough to do it, and four of the other justices are stupid enough to follow him.
ThymeZone
The hell you say!
First hand experience, then?
Pb
Missy Hunter,
I don’t think so–so I’ll just mark you down as a crazed eugenics supporter who apparently failed sex ed. Thas the added bonus of better explaining your posts on this thread; cheers!
You don’t want their money, just their official documents? Maybe they could send you a certificate telling you when you’re below the poverty line, but nothing else?
ed
I’m confused. Why would you demand a certificate from an entity you have no respect or use for? Either government has some real meaning and value to you, or the pity party accusations are accurate and government sanction is a convienient whipping boy for your sadness and anger.
Missy Hunter
Grumpy Realist,
I have done further research to discover that such laws have passed in 20 states since the turn of the 21st Century.
If, as you purport, the “slippery slope” is legitimate, which it is not- and Sagan- the greatest scientific mind of the 20th Century noted that- why in the states where this has passed have there been no adverse effects on reproductive rights?
Also, this is NOT about miscarriages. This is about BIRTH. You know…that really scary, but miraculous, process you see on National Geographic, or sometimes in real life. Where a fullterm offspring is expelled from its mothers vagina?
Pb
It must be, because that’s the only sort of experience that he/she values upthread–make that a hermaphroditic eugenics supporter who failed sex ed (although the hermaphrodism would go a long way towards explaining why).
John Cole
This thread is officially dead.
I guess someone should petition the state for a certificate.
Missy Hunter
Ed,
I would like to say that I’m not requesting it. I’m demanding it.
I gave birth to my sons. They gave me a death certificate (free, btw, which is inane and costly…welcome to the government), and said I had to bury them.
I get to ask for a birth certificate if I want one and am willing to pay for one.
It’s as simple as that.
I notice no one liked my joke about the helicopter. Damn.
And, no, I’m not a man. But I have plenty of experience- more so than most of you- with the male reproductive organ.
ImJohnGalt
[fap fap fappity fap]
The hell you say!
ThymeZone
That’s right. Real men don’t spoof as women.
But you can get your manhood back! Just sign up as a Boy Scout Troop Leader.
ThymeZone
With a “bloop” sound?
Tulkinghorn
I used to be a food stamp and medicaid worker. While you may be able to make a living as a stripper, try that when you are like my typical client: 50 years old, disabled, already working whatever minimum wage job they can get, 2-3 grandchildren living at home and needing support.
More power to you in your narrow, little, dignified objectivist paradise. The rest of us just worry about feeding people who are hungry, and want to use the state for practical ends rather than as a public forum for validating ourselves and our self-aggrandizing belief systems.
Missy Hunter
Tulkinghorn,
I have no doubt that a local charity – and your local efforts- can do much more to help the local hungry, or those marginalized by poverty. Dont assume that I’m some sort of greedy, money hoarder. For Thanksgiving, I collected two trucks full of food for our local food bank, regularly donate more than most Americans to local charities, and even help stray animals.
I’ve even been called (gasp) a bleeding heart Liberal (gasp again).
I just know that I’m much more capable of helping – individuals are more capable- than any government entity when it comes to poverty.
And – tell me- what would I have to do to prove to you “men” here that I’m not a male? For crying out loud…you’ve been lied to an awful lot, haven’t you? Do guys really go around the internet masquerading as a woman? Or do you just believe that no woman could possibly be this bright to hang in there with the “boys” in a friendly little political debate?
Bubblegum Tate
I was just listening to that album the other day. Fucking hell, is it good.
Well, it certainly inspired a modified chorus of Petey Pablo’s “Raise Up” (“Take your shirt off, twist it around your hand, spin it like a helicopter”) and a very funny mental picture of some zoot-suiter strutting down the street spinning his wang instead of his pocketwatch.
Missy Hunter
Or perhaps you think a woman could not possibly be this rational?
ThymeZone
Take your foot off your dick?
Missy Hunter
ThymeZone,
You are a funny girl!
Bubblegum Tate
Yes. Yes they do. And that has sort of become an ongoing online joke.
Missy Hunter
Well, I’m not going to get anywhere in this discussion if you all believe that I have a penis. So, I’ll take my vagina and go elsewhere.
I hope that in some small way, someone here reconsiders what this means to us as mothers- as women. I know it’s hard to understand unless you’ve personally lived through it. Let’s hope none of you- or your children- live through it themselves (remember that it happens to 1 in 100)…
ThymeZone
Yes, I’m afraid that ship sailed some time ago.
ThymeZone
Edited for clarity.
grumpy realist
Good god, talk about self-pity. “…what means to us as mothers–as women.” WAAAH!
Some of us”males” here may actually be women posting under non-gendered handles, y’know. So please put a sock in the “us-poor-helpless-women-being-picked-on-by-men.” I know quite well that at least one woman thinks that this is a Bad, Bad Idea.
Rome Again
No, actually, I didn’t. For reasons I don’t want to go into here, you are making this into a situation where someone thinks I could be spoofing you because of your rather interesting choice of language.
And, no, I’m not a man. But I have plenty of experience- more so than most of you- with the male reproductive organ.
WTF are you talking about? You had sex change? You got laid a lot? What, pray tell, could give you “experience with the male reproductive organ?”
Rome Again
Sorry, forgot to blockquote that second part.
Rome Again
Oh, if you only knew!
Krista
Ye gods…
As far as the whole birth certificate thing goes, sorry…I just don’t think it’s a good idea. I feel complete and utter sympathy for anybody who has had a child delivered stillborn. However, to issue a birth certificate to someone who never experienced life really just does leave the slippery slope wide open. I don’t, however, think that they should be issuing death certificates either. It implies that where there is now death, there was once life. And if they were never alive outside of the womb, then they must have been alive inside the womb — and at what point?
I think it would probably be better to issue neither birth NOR death certificates for stillborns. Instead, issue a specific certificate indicating that the child was stillborn, and ensure that the certificate is legally recognized by any services/departments involved, such as hospitals, crematoriums, etc.
Tulkinghorn
Uh, Missy…
you don’t think we all missed the pun in your name, do you?
Most people just assumed you were a spoof, pretending to be a missy when you just hunting for one. If your name actually is ‘Missy Hunter’, then wow… have you noticed this before?
T
Tulkinghorn is absolutely right. Private charity is completely inadequate. You delivered two trucks of food? Whoopee. People need to eat every week, not just on thanksgiving. Government is important because of the volume of resources it can consistently deliver. There is a reason why we invaded Afghanistan with an army instead of voluntary organizations equipped with their own weapons and transportation. When you can mobilize enough people, voluntarily, to deliver, every single month, the millions upon millions of dollars worth of food needed by the sort of people Tulkinghorn accurately describes, then we can consider doing away with food stamps.
tBone
Must . . . resist . . . ping-pong joke . . .
rachel
How many dead babies does it take to change a lightbulb?
ConservativelyLiberal
Birth is birth, stillbirth is stillbirth. No confusion there. One moves, lives and breathes at the moment of birth, one does not. How you get a birth certificate out of a stillbirth escapes me. Forget about a birth certificate that has a checkbox for still birth, I would never agree to that as it is just too easy to open that up for abuse.
A birth certificate is for the parent to use until the child is an adult, at that point the new adult takes it and uses it throughout their life. My sister had a stillbirth (22 weeks), and she thinks this idea is just creepy. I agree. What is it for, a trophy to hang on the wall?
“Look what I did not accomplish!”
My wife (and I) had two miscarriages, and she thinks this idea is plain nuts. And as far as Missy Hunter coming in and telling everyone to shut up if they have not experienced it is just plain hilarious. Only the chosen can speak about this, eh? Sorry Missy, but the last time I checked this was still America. We all have a right to our opinions, and the right to express them.
I really had to laugh at the bit about ‘well, if I have to pay to bury/cremate it, I deserve one. If they pay for it, well no big deal then’. I smell a spoof.
If you are not aware of this, you are probably the only person on the internet who is not.
I call spoof…
/checks bullshit detector
Yup, the brown light is flashing. ;)
RSA
But isn’t that why male legislators and judges always consider the woman’s point of view in their discussion of restrictions on abortion? Oh, wait, I must have been visiting a different planet.
Punchy
I have a waterbed…
Andrew
How tasteless!
Andrew
But it depends how high you have to stack them.
YellowJournalism
Add me to that list. And I didn’t have to give my measurements or describe a penis fantasy to qualify.
Aaron
becouse with a birth certificate its a dependant.
Aaron
becouse with a birth certificate its a dependant for tax purposes.
Tax Analyst
A little late in replying to this, I just got here (work) today. Yes, unless the Tax Code was changed to specifically disallow the exemption, because any taxpayer or dependent who dies during the year, even on the 1st day of the is considered alive for the entire Tax Year. So this would reduce Taxable income and also qualify the parents for Earned Income Credit & the Child Tax Credit – both refundable credits if the t/p otherwise qualifies for them – qualifying is based on having “Earned Income” and having that Income & total Adjusted Gross Income below certain thresholds.
I make no judgment as to whether I think any of this is “right” or not, it is how the Tax Code is currently written, but there are financial implications for both the parents and for the government (and by extension, other taxpayers).
BTW –
Missy Hunter said:
“They gave me a death certificate (free, btw, which is inane and costly…welcome to the government)…”, which is as incorrect a statement as one could possible make. The Death Certificate in an important and essential Legal Document. Try collecting Insurance Proceeds, Cashing Retirement Annuities, taking possession of bequeathed Property…the list goes on…without this Certificate.
If you are a Surviving Spouse you MIGHT be OK, depending on the complexity of the situation…but otherwise, you cannot close the book on the person who died and move on with your life. To me that’s a hell of a lot more important than creating symbolic & emotional sops and stamping a government seal on it. You may think this the argument of a materially-obsessed Philistine, but you are wrong. Try spending 3 years picking up the pieces in order to finalize a loved one’s affairs and get their Estate distributed to their heirs (yes, I am one of them, but for me the money is really secondary to the resolution). When you are done you can back to the task of maybe having your own life while you still can.
But I’m looking for neither Sainthood nor sympathy here. The situation “is” and that’s that…I’ve had my time to grieve and spliced it within dealing with the resoltion details and my job and…and so what…all around the world people do these things…and then hopefully move on…without benefit of “Official Recognition”. Or they can choose to kneel forlornly before a bottom-less dry well of grief and hope that droplets of pity from passerbys will quench their thirst…
Thanks.
scarshapedstar
Well, if you’re issuing birth certificates to babies that were never born, then I suppose birth takes place at the moment of conception.
Bubblegum Tate
Yeah, we saved those voluntary organizations for Iraq. (See: Blackwater)