Oliver Willis and the Poor Man are having a little tiff over whether the ’04-’05 Patriots are the best team ever, and they compare the Patriots to the following teams:
1. The 1985 Bears
2. 1972 Dolphins
3. 1962 Packers
4. 1991 Redskins
5. 1999 Rams
6. 1989 49ers
Notice anything missing- like, say, the Steelers of the 1970’s, who won 4 Super Bowls over a seven year period? Remember them- the team that defined DYNASTY? You have heard of the Steel Curtain, haven’t you?
What do these names have in common: Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, Mel BLount, Mike Webster, and Franco Harris? Why, they are all members of the Hall of Fame. Throw in Coach Chuck Knoll, and then find any other team that has nine of its members enshrined.
Add to this that anyone who knows anything about the NFL will note that the best of those Steelers teams did not even go to the Superbowl. That isright- the best team the Steelers fielded was the 1976 Steelers, who had the greatest defense in the history of the NFL. Unless you know of another team that was 1-4, won their final 9 games, outscoring their opponents 234-28 with 5 shut-outs.
And that was with a rookie QB, two injured running backs, and after two extended seasons prior (having won the Superbowl those previous two season).
I am not going to denigrate the greatness of the Current incarnation of the Patriots, but any discussion of the ‘greatest teams ever’ that fails to mention the Steelers dynasty teams of the 1970’s just shouldn’t be taken seriously.
jeff
Another thing about that ’76 team, I believe both Franco Harris and Rocky Blier were injured for the AFC Championship game against the Raiders.
Since they’re going strictly by teams that won titles, the ’78 Steelers belong either 1 or 2, but no lower than that.
Oliver is showing that he knows as much about football as he does about politics.
jeff
On another note, i wasn’t gonna click your link to Oliver’s cesspool of a website, but I did just because i love a good football debate as much as anyone.
That said, WHAT THE FUCK is this fascination so many people seem to have about the Patriots “only” winning each of their Super Bowls by three points? Who cares, they won three fucking Super Bowls!
I’m an Eagles fan so believe me, it’s like i’m dying for reasons to stick up for the Pats, but this stuff about only winning by three points as if it’s some sort of negative is about the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever heard.
jeff
One other point about the Steelers of the 70’s and I swear i’ll shut up is that they had to beat teams that were loaded with future Hall of Famers like Dallas (with Staubach, Drew Pearson, Harvey Martin, Randy White, Tony Dorsett) and Oakland (Stabler, Branch, Biletnikoff sp?, Jack Tatum).
Either team, the Cowboys or the Raiders, from that era could’ve been a dynasty in their own right were in not for the Steelers.
Starshatterer
These kind of arguments are as bad as, “was Julius Caesar a better general than Napoleon Bonaparte?” It becomes impossible to compare because of the changes in era. Consider just two factors:
Control of players: thanks to free agency and the salary cap, you just can’t load a roster with future Hall of Famers. Advantage: old dynasties.
Training and conditioning: current players are bigger and faster than players were in the mid-70’s. Rocky Bleier? 5’9, 210. That’s a wide receiver, not a fullback, in today’s NFL. Folks who play at the size and speed of the 70’s greats, play on today’s practice squads. Advantage: new dynasties.
There are several other factors like those two (rule changes, increased roster size, greater number of teams competing, more complex plays/systems, larger coaching staffs). So which factor is more important? I don’t know, and neither do you.
The Steelers have an impressive legacy and a promising future. The Patriots have a great present and a shot at rare greatness to come. No need to talk down the other team’s accomplishments.
Blackjack
One dynasty that seems to get overlooked is the Jim Kelly era Bills. Yes, I can understand why they get overlooked — they couldn’t win the big game. Still, as a pure football team, I’d have to rate them as one of the best I’ve ever seen. Plus, the K-Gun was probably the most innovative offense of its time.
Mike
Starshatterer, you miss one significant point – that team John mentions? Built almost 100% through the draft.
JohnO
The Cowboys and the Favre Packers seem to be missing as well. Multi Bowl winning teams that not only won, but won by a lot.
Starshatterer
Mike–
You say, “that team John mentions? Built almost 100% through the draft.”
And?
A team today that drafts multiple Hall of Famers, will still run into cap and free agency issues trying to keep them. Plus more teams are competing for those choice players in the draft.
I’m not even sure the point is all that significant. Jerome Bettis was drafted by the Rams — does this somehow make him a worse runner for the Steelers?
Flugelhorn
To not include Dallas in this arguement is outrageous. Dallas was the Dynasty of the 90s and overall has more Super Bowl appearances than any other team(8 Total w/ Denver the next closest at 6) and are tied with the 49ers with 5 wins. I would put the 1993 Dallas Superbowl Team against ANYBODY and I think they’d win.
I guess Oliver’s not mentioning the Cowboys is to be expected. He is a ‘skins fan. Any other football lover would know better than to include the Redskins in any “Greatest of all time” debates.
sean
JohnO –
Favre only has one Super Bowl ring.
scott
the Steelers of the 1970’s, who won 4 Super Bowls over a seven year period?
That should be four in 6 years…
The Steelers won the SB after the 74, 75, 78, and 79 seasons.
Uncle Mikey
Flugel’s right, the 1992 Cowboys crush every one of those teams by double digits, and any of the championship Patriots teams too. Cowboys Hatred is just as egregiously silly as Bush Derangement Syndrome.
Birkel
Damn it Scott, that was what I was going to say. And I had a link and everything.
Oh well, better late than never.
Agree on the Steelers. They’re overlooked because too many of the people having these conversations only remember post-SportsCenter sports. And then they must not watch ESPN Classic.
The argument that this generation is bigger and faster is hooey. Sure they’re bigger and faster. And if those 1970s teams took steroids and lifted weights all day so would they have been. That’s why you judge a team against its peers. They all trained the same way in the 70s and the Steelers were the best. They all train the same way now, and the Patriots are the best. What does that prove?
Gimme the HOF players and coaches the Steelers had all day long.
And I’m a 49ers fan. But credit where it’s due.
Starshatterer
Birkel–
Why should one dynasty-to-be-compared (the Steelers) get all its advantages (ability to draft & retain an entire stable of HoFers), but the advantage of the other (better training regimens &c) must be denied the other (the Patriots)?
I mean, sure, if the Steelers get all the advantages they had, plus all the advantages they didn’t, they look pretty well unbeatable. Caesar really crushes the Gauls if he gets firearms and artillery, too.
Beto Ochoa
“Oliver Willis…
Like lodestone to stupid”
Birkel
Because we’re talking writing about fairness. We’re writing about which team was better.
And as for the war analogy. Nice try. By that standard I could shoot Roy Jones with a .44 and call myself a world champion fighter. Uh, not exactly.
As I wrote above,
That’s why you judge a team against its peers.
And the Steelers were more dominant against their foes than the Pats have been against theirs.
B. Minich, PI
To be fair, Willis started mentioning the Steel Curtian teams in his original “the Pats aren’t that great” post. It was the poor man who left them out in his response, linking to an article that used the weirdes teams ever to compare the Patriots against. The Rams? Come on – they were the team trying to claim they were a dynasty that the Patriots unsat. The Bears? What kind of choices are those, Poor Man? The post John links to is Willis’ response team by team – Willis didn’t even mention the 91 Skins. I don’t know what was up with the ESPN page 2 story – no idea how they came by most of those teams, or why they left the 90s Cowboys (as much as I despise them) or the Joe Montana era 49ers off the list.
Matt M.
Amen
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