Before I lose all my regular readers because of my opinions on the Schiavo case, let me just state that I think that Democrats are still wrong on:
– taxes
– the military
– entitlements
– education
– foreign policy
– gun control
– affirmative action
It is precisely the fact that I believe so strongly in the individual- I believe that Americans will do the right thing when given a chance, especially with their family and loved ones- that this intervention by Congress into the lives of private citizens disgusts me so much. Well- the lying about Michael Schiavo and the rejection of medical science for hopes of miracles pisses me off, too. And the fact that my party seems so damned cozy using scum like Randall Terry and Bo Gritz. And the sheer cynicism of the outright pandering to the religious base, along with the damage this does to our public faith in government and the court system.
Alright- there are a lot of things my party is doing regarding this case that piss me off- but I still think of myself as a moderate Republican. So don’t make plans for me to leave the party yet. The party I know and love would respect the rights and human dignity of Terri and Michael Schiavo- they wouldn’t pretend to care about the due process rights of Terri Schiavo while waving her lifeless body around as a rallying call for right to life votes.
And now, in a post meant to explain why I am still a Republican, I have gone and probably pissed off all of MY base again. Sigh…
jpe
I’ll say this: there are perfectly legitimate and reasonable ways to critique the courts’ usurpation of areas that had previously been matters for the legislature.
That said, the way people are going nuts over this Terri crap and trying to blame it on the courts is really, really stupid.
shark
10 out of 10 for honesty.
Wulfgar
No sweat dude. I think you’re so right about the Schiavo case, but I’ll still despise you in the morning.
;-)
Scott Chaffin
the fact that I believe so strongly in the individual
Superb…
the rights and human dignity of Terri and Michael Schiavo
Except that two people ain’t an individual.
I have gone and probably pissed off all of MY base again.
I’m sure we’ll all recover.
Kimmitt
I’m interested to hear what you think the Democratic positions are on taxes, the military, entitlements, education, gun control, and affirmative action vis a vis the Republican positions.
In general, I operate on the opinion that there has been a long-term institutional effort by the Republicans involving things like “lying a lot” to demonize the Democratic Party — and that you may wish to consider the egregious falsehoods currently perpetrated in the Schiavo case as support for the “the Republican leadership lies a lot” thesis.
Oliver
Hey, John, do you see the GOP I’m always going on about now? Heh.
CleverNameHere
John
It may be helpful to know that not all who oppose the dehydration of Ms. Schiavo do so out of some wild-eyed religious fervor. Some agnostics/athiests (such as myself) find ourselves on the same side as the Randal Terrys simply because we want to err on the side of life, and the case for Terri having desired, while competent to make the decision, not to be kept alive via (unspecified) artificial means, has not been convincingly made.
At the risk of “villianizing” Michael Schiavo, it may be true that the money in the fund to provide care for Terri has dwindled to $50K, but it was a helluva lot more back in 1998 when he originally petitioned to have her feeding tube removed. That he has burned through much of it once he set out on this effectively unalterable course doesn’t change the fact that the available sum at the time would have been enough to tempt more than a few men.
And yes, the indications of past trauma to Terri, possibly as a result of physical violence on the part of Michael, who knows, could lead one to formulate a picture of a man who wasn’t the epitome of a loving husband, and who took his chance at cashing in on a wife he no longer loved.
Yeah, that’s mighty unpleasant, and it is perhaps greatly unfair to Mr. Schiavo, but one need not convict him to conclude sufficient doubt remains regarding his report of Terri’s wishes to decide not to let her die by dehydration.
Just remember when thinking about this that not all of us in the “feed Terri” camp are snake-handlers.
Michael J. Totten
You aren’t going to lose readers. Relax. Andrew Sullivan didn’t lose readers when he came out for Kerry, even though “I stopped reading Andrew Sullivan” became the most commonly written sentence in the blogosphere.
Joe D.
Don’t worry, you’ll always be considered an asshole.
Brian Linse
Readers looking for an echo chamber are not worth worrying about, and your blog will be a better one if you don’t pander to them as so many bloggers (on both sides) do.
I almost always disagree with you, but you’ve been on my blogroll and a daily read since the early days of Blogdom precisely because you call ’em as you see ’em on a case by case basis, and your position is always a considered one.
As a real conservative you *should* be upset by this circus. It has the possibility of some really bad blowback, and it exposes the lack of true conservative values at the highest levels of the current Republican establishment. This is part of the bill due the religious Right for the Jesusland outcome of the last election. I’m glad you are outraged, but you shouldn’t be surprised.
And since this case also lays out an area where true liberals and true conservatives agree, it shows us that there is common ground to be found when we focus on what “liberalism” and “conservatism” are supposed to mean.
Remember the days when alliances would form across party lines based on the issue at hand?
I do, but I’m an old fart.
Sav
Man Oliver, you are so clairvoyant. Here you knew all along that the GOP and conservatives are evil. And trying to save this woman is just the I-told-you-so cherry on top.
s
Politicians acting like….politicians.
What a shocker!
willyb
The people who were offended by your position on Terri Schiavo may have been so based more on your characterization of their motives than on the actual position itself. I am reconciled to the belief that there is truth on both sides, and like you, I see my position as supporting the rights of Terri Schiavo. We just disagree on how to best protect those rights.
You choose to believe that she would want to die, and that we should respect her wishes. I’d be right there with you if I believed that’s what Terri Schiavo wanted. But, based on the evidence used to determine her wishes, I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that that is what she would want. And when you are talking about ending someone’s “life”, you need to be pretty sure.
Terri Schiavo has an unalienable right to life, and absent her documented desire to give up that right, we should protect her (such as that “her” may be given the present state of her condition).
ape
the important thing about the Schiavo case is surely not so much the substantive issue (should the tube be pulled out?) or even the question of ‘who is responsible/ should the government interfere?’
it is the staggering hypocrisy of the Republican pandering for religious votes; including Bush, who signed legislation authorising hospitals to do almost exactly the same thing as Schiavo’s legal guardian wants to do if, instead of being motivated by compassion and belief in his life-partner’s wishes, as he is, they are motivated by financial considerations.
today is not a good day to say that aspiration towards gun control is an error.
there are too many guns in the US. it’s pretty plain. the people who get killed by them have a right to life too.
including this two-year old:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3082257
it simply doesn’t make sense to claim that the US has an excessively high number of psychos. (a psycho 4-year-old?) there must be another reason for the excessively high level of gun murders/ deaths.
in the UK; conservative leader Michael Howard got slaughtered in the press for claiming that the hand-gun ban went gone too far after the Dunblane massacre. quite right too. however many guns there are, that’s too many. if the Olympic shooting team get caught up in that, apologies: they can’t guide policy. try and win us a medal in Dressage.
of course, the UK doesn’t have quite so much deer to shoot.. no legitimate purposes for owning guns. so the situation is different even before the oddly-drafted 2nd amendment.
Steve Malynn
John, after reading ape’s tin foil, do you really think the votes in congress were poll-tested pandering?
ape
JC’s totally right about the GOP’s tactics on this one..
Rush is solidly, amazingly repulsive:
“Clinton Appointee Hears Schiavo Case..
“Liberals want this woman dead…
SUPPORT BUSH OR VOTE FOR DEATH.
i mean, that’s why we’re liberal. we just like death.
did you see what the right-to-lifers were saying about the last judge outside the courtroom? he was some sort of ‘human animal’. the purpose of this whole business is to paint the imaginary liberal-demon underworld in lurid colours for their base. we hate freedom AND god. and life.
willyb
ape:
The horseshit you’re shovelin’ is, well, simply breathtaking. I feel so sorry for you poor, persecuted “liberals.”
ape
of course, Savage, Limbaugh and DeLay are fucking morons who represent noone and no tendency.
but perhaps it is nevertheless instructive to see what lessons they take from the schiavo case.
Delay thinks Democrats have prevented a sentient, innocent woman from having “two meals already today”
savage thinks as follows:
“Michael Savage Speaks Out Against the Dem Deathworshippers..
“The radical Democratic left is an army of soulless ghouls. Being of the living dead, they live in a world of death and try to impose it on we the living. Witness who led the charge: a radical homosexual, Barney Frank. A radical abortion Mafiosa, Barbara Boxer. What is difficult for we the living to comprehend is the reason they can engage in such anti-life abominations is because they have no souls. They have said that the tears of Terri Schiavo are mechanical. They have said that her smile is reflexive. They can rip an emerging child from the womb, murder it, and call this a compassionate act. Like Mengele
Scott
I’m with you. I am not proud of a party that usurps state authority for political reasons.
I’m as Republican as they come and generally side with Republicans on most issues, however I draw the line in this case.
The amazing part of this is the debate is being waged and it’s not the old familiar sides. Feminists are teaming up with Conservative Christians and Neocons are siding with bleeding heart libs.
The one thing I told myself when I started my blog more than two years ago was this: I will say what I believe and not what others want to hear.
Bob
Republican positions:
1. Taxes-Cut taxes on the most wealthy people and their corporations in order to further divide the haves from the have-nots. Underfund the budget so that a greater share of the budget is devoted to paying off the debt and a lesser amount to actually funding government works. Create useless and worthless federal mandates that must be paid for by the states, thus ensuring that state economies are further burdened. Raise social security taxes and then use the money to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy.
2. Military-Wage unprovoked wars against countries that don’t threaten us in order to control resources in those countries. Cut care for vets after you use them. Dispose of them onto the streets. Allow fatcat friend who supply the war machine to defraud the government with contempt for the taxpayers. Create useless weapons systems in order to continue the flow of money to buddies in the boardrooms.
3. Entitlements-Them’s that got shall get…
4. Education-The less that the proles know, the better. Underfund everything except selling religion. Increase fear and paranoia among the proles. Decrease understanding.
5. Foreign Policy-Make human rights decisions based on financial return to favored corporations. Use regimes that torture to torture when doing it yourself becomes an issue. Violate international treaties when they become inconvenient.
6. Gun Control-Red Lake.
7. Affirmative Action-See #3.
RW
Bob, I’d really prefer to be able to continue to read John’s site sans DU idiotic talking points. You seem like a pleasant chap, but I don’t think anyone cares to read party-line BS when they come to sites like this. If I want to see that stuff I can go to kos or FreeRepublic on the other side.
Please don’t cause folks like me to stop clicking the links (read: ruining things).
John Gillnitz
I wonder whose idea it was to go totally ape shit over this issue. Between this and the SS issue the right is hanging itself. Cool!
Kimmitt
I don’t think anyone cares to read party-line BS
You may rest assured that the use of the word “proles” is not party-line Democratic.
slapshot57
a good principled stand, at least in this dems eyes. But for the record, I disagree with you on:
– taxes
– the military
– entitlements
– education
– foreign policy
– gun control
– affirmative action
but unless you guys purge some of these guys from your party, it’s gonna get worse before it gets better. And by worse I mean us in charge of all three branches. You are obviously aware of the cyclical nature of government, I was just a little surprised they’re being so brazen about it.
Chuck S
WillyB writes, concerning the Schiavo case:
“You choose to believe that she would want to die, and that we should respect her wishes. I’d be right there with you if I believed that’s what Terri Schiavo wanted. But, based on the evidence used to determine her wishes, I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that that is what she would want.”
I’m sorry, I can’t buy that argument. Who said YOU needed to be convinced before she be allowed to die? How is it that you, or Tom DeLay, can presume to know her wishes better than her husband and legal guardian? How can you just assume her husband is lying about her wishes? What do you really know about Michael or Terri Schiavo that allows you to pass that kind of judgment?
CadillaqJaq
Because our loyal liberal leftist friends are right on one thing doesn’t make ’em right on everything. With this Terri Schiavo issue, I’m siding with the left.
It’s interesting as hell though watching African-American Dems now championing states rights from the HOuse floor: the same states that neglected their rights for so long. It’s also weird as hell watching Republicans pushing federalism and judicial powers.
It proves one thing to my simple mind: politicians are a sleazy breed in general. Tip O’Neal said “All politics are local.” I say “Everything is politics.”
Now I pray the federal appeals court’s decision upholds Judge Whittemore. He’s the Clinton appointee that was supposedly going to order the tube be reinserted. Fooled again.
CadillaqJaq
As an aside: In nearly 70 years on this planet, I can’t recall ever talking to any human who has said if given the choice to be kept alive artificially, they’d prefer “living like that.”
Case closed.
Steven Lieb
I am shocked by one of the responses here. What is demonstrates is the mental gymnastics it takes to call yourself a Republican these days. Willyb said ” I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that that is what she would want. And when you are talking about ending someone’s “life”, you need to be pretty sure.”
Interesting that when dealing with this woman who has no significant brain left, you want to be sure that’s what she wants. Yet, Republicans of all stripes, especially President Bush, give no thought at all to executing people on death row when there is ample evidence to suspect they are not guilty of the crimes they are accused of.
Unless the Republican Party purges itself of the religious nutcases who, as DeLay says, promote a biblical worldview, there is no place but the Democratic Party for people like me with conservative priorities but ‘a reality based’ worldview.
Chasm
My question is: how would all of this have gone if Terri Shiavo was gay, and it was her longtime lesbian partner fighting to keep her alive against her homophobic parents wishes? Would the right-to-lifers argue that the partners’ rights should be elevated to that of spouse so that she could keep ‘Terri’ alive? Somehow, I doubt it would even be in the news.
J. Caesar
Ok… as someone who voted in the Iowa Republican caucuses back in 1988 when Pat Robertson came in 2nd place… (I voted for Dole)
You guys are really just not getting it. You haven’t realized that the Republican party in despair over not being in the majority signed a deal with the devil. They told Robertson that if he could deliver millions of votes, he’d get his way. Not realizing that Robertson would actually deliver. Now you’re stuck and either deliver or piss them off again.(like in ’88)
This Schiavo thing isn’t anything extraordinary. This is the way the GOP has been running politics for years. You just weren’t necessarily aware of it, because it wasn’t so blatant. Bush has been a master at playing this game, throwing out little code words to get the whackadoodles excited while not scaring away the ignorant moderates.
I tell ya… There’s going to be a hell of a battle in 2008 for the Republican nomination. It’s going to be worse than 1988. I’ve never seen the religious whackadoodles so worked up before.
They want blood, and they’re going to get it one way or another.
RW
Gee, J. Caesar, I’ve never seen someone pretend to be a Republican and say that *this time* the religious right has really taken over the party before.
Never!
I’m shocked that you could conjur up a thing since it’s never, ever, been typed.
Demo
Thank you for saying the obvious. As a Democrat who usually votes for at least a couple GOP candidates in every election, it’s good to see there is some common sense in the Republican party.
If you disagree with Dems on policy, we’ll always welcome your input.
brian
At least you’re still towing the party line John.
brian
But doesn’t it BOTHER you that yr afraid of losing “all your regular readers” for your heresy? Is Group-Think a conservative virtue?
Are “The ends justify the means” “Might makes right” and “My country right or wrong” American values? With regards to the disgusting Schiavo charade, the neo-con revolution is just taking its natural course. Enjoy the ride John.
Kimmitt
Dude, it’s called exaggeration for humorous effect.
Bob
RW, you don’t have to agree, you don’t have to read what I write. You can cover your ears and stomp your feet.
I don’t necessarily support any party line. I thought that was Cole’s point. Even if you support a party generally, only a true believer would abandon critical reasoning to serve a symbol for what you believe.
John Cole posted seven reasons why he still considers himself a Republican. I think Republican policies on those issues are largely hypocritical. The only coherent theme of the current Republican Party is the continuing generation of wealth for the richest. No surprise. It’s been an organizing principle for almost all civilizations since the first surplus of the first harvest.
The same controlling government that conservatives feared under a Democratic Congress is here with a Republican face. Now we have the federal government imposing its will into the most personal family decisions. Those conservative fears about giving away one’s social security number a few years ago seem quaint in the context of our post-9/11 security state. A President who believes it is his right to violate law and who believes he makes no mistakes. Whether you want to call it fascism, neo-fascism, Republicanism, whatever, what this administration is doing is what most true conservatives a generation ago feared that the Democrats would do.
I think it would be illuminating to find out how small government conservatives would want to organize a country with hundreds of millions of people without a system of healthcare, pensions for the old and ill and other “safetynet” “entitlements.” Mr. Cole seems to be that kind of Republican and it’s an interesting philosophy that seems to have no place in the real world. But his philosophy doesn’t seem to have much to do with the actions of the current regime in Washington DC.
Despite the recent events in Minnesota, I am generally philosophically opposed to gun control. I think, though, that it’s been used as a bogeyman on both sides of the issue.
But what does this crew of Republicans actually stand for? Life? Please, Bush’s “futile care” bill lets hospitals in Texas pull the plug when the hope of getting any more money from either the patient or his insurance carrier is futile. People die every day because they don’t have access to health care. Terri Shiavo is alive by the grace of Medicaid, which is up for a proposed gutting of 18 billion this budget.
Republican lies, intrusion of privacy, and hypocrisy doesn’t start and stop with Terri Shiavo, but it is illustrative.
Bob
Cadillac, the first flipflop on state’s rights goes back to the slave-holding South and the Dredd Scott decision, by forcing the federal government to enforce slave state law in the free north. Curiously, I was talking about this today at work, with a real, actual African American.
Brian
Abandon you because I disagree with you? Never. In this case, you are about 76.4% correct in my view. My main issue is starving a human being to death. I think a lot of people like me are asking why not give her a lethal injection? What’s the difference?
Bottom line: Republicans did the wrong thing for the right reason.
p.s. I only agree with me 100% time, and I’ll come back here no matter what you write, as long as you keep it passionate and interesting, like you always have.
RW
Yeah, sometimes the Democratic party swerves from the socialist line.
Nice try, Bob. The next original premise you put forth will be the first.
Bob
RW, I never said I wasn’t to the left. I’m just not wedded to the party line. I thought that that whole DLC thing steered the Demos to the same corporate teats that were feeding the Republicans.
Socialist? If that means Social Security, building roads, providing medical services (hey, like vaccination programs for the flu), etc., I guess that’s what I am. If that means paying taxes for a fire department, a police department, courts, yeah, that’s what I am. You against any of that? How about the military? We may not agree on whether or not to invade Iraq, but we agree on having one, I would guess. All this stuff is paid for by taxes. Think of them as user fees, as insurance policies.
People come together to form a country, they share expenses. Maybe you’re the guy who after everyone shares a pizza gets up and walks out before the bill is paid, but it doesn’t work for a country. You drive on roads paid for by taxes, you go to airports paid for by taxes.
As far as originality, RW, I never claimed it, nor have you or anyone here offered a font of new thought. My guess, though, is that some of the lesser lights here may not have had the opportunity to look at things from a class-based point of view. There’s a reason why Republicans screech so loud when someone points out the unfairness of their policies–if they admit that the argument has always been top versus bottom and not left versus right their whole facade falls down. I’m just offering a nudge.
Maybe the hypocrisy of their Terri Shiavo performance will help some here to identify other scams run by this gang of crooks.
RW
Actually, Bob, that would make me a diehard Democratic constituent who expects someone else to pay the tab and then bitch when someone like Bush would point out the inadequacies involved in such a scenario.
Those getting the free rides seldom want to actually paddle the boat.
Thanks.
Kimmitt
that would make me a diehard Democratic constituent who expects someone else to pay the tab
Didn’t we already have this discussion about how the Red States are receiving more money from the Federal Government than they put in, while the Blue States are putting in more money than they receive? Or how per-capita income in Blue States dwarfs that in Red States?
RW
You may have had it, Kimmitt.
I, for the most part, overlooked your attempt because of the incoherent level of ignorance because your (as usual) cut and pasted drivel from someone else’s work included social security and military bases, which means you’re claiming welfare for someone moving to Florida during their golden years and denouncing the dastardly soldiers for their barracks being in red states.
As if anyone could build a 3K square foot house in the middle of Manhatten even if they were making a million dollars a year whereas they’re going up in my neighborhood for around $200K and households with incomes as small as $60K per year are doing just fine in those large houses.
Your discussion was given all the attention it deserved, Kimmitt. Take Angrybear’s work somewhere else and find someone’s ankles to bite who gives a damn about participating in a remedial level discussion — for you were told all of the above the first time you tried and apparently didn’t learn (which could be why the blue states are losing the population to the red states).
Not an ad-hom, but please don’t waste my time or else prepare to be ignored for is too important to read someone crop their favorite moonbat bloggers and paste in various comments sections. I can get that from Bob.
Griz
I miss debating real conservatives. Please steal your party back from the extremists. Looking forward to thoughtful debate and real compromise.
German
Disclaimer: This is a foreigners view
How else than through the republican party should the religious right voice its concerns? You only have two parties, and that’s due to your electional system. Nader really is the exception and constantly has to fight the claims he weakens the left.
So why the surprise?
Bob
RW, so it’s okay to explain away the difference between red and blue state tax obligations, but gee whiz, when I raise the idea of people sharing the burden, suddenly you’re whining about people not paying their share. You’re starting to sound like that hypocrite bugkiller in the House. You ARE the punk clown ass who stiffs the rest of us with the bill.
So, like I said, go invent a country of a hundred or three million people without a healthcare system, without a military, without a road system, without sewers or a water system, without taxes.
The woman ahead of me at the store today was buying a copy of “Soylent Green.” Part of your platform, RW? You’d still have to raise the money to buy the gas chambers, and you’d have to pay the guards. And you’d need roads and train tracks to take the people there.
RW
Bob,
I’m sorry that I noted that you were a pleasant chap, earlier. I now see that you’re no different than any other brain-dead left-wing wacko moonbat who is willing to break the Mandel rule whenever there’s nothing else to fall back on.
I’m also sorry that I wasted time on you. Please don’t think that I will ever pay attention to your candy-ass again.
Loser.
Bob
Well, RW, I must have hit a sore spot. The problem with defending red/blue state inequality in paying taxes is that it contradicts your silly “conservative” notion that you pay your share and anyone on welfare and entitlements must not.
You guys always have problems with paying for your right-wing utopias (for ex, view the current Bush budget), and your so-called independence ends when it is in need of a 911 call.
Society is social. You can’t live on your own, disconnected from the rest of the world, under some rock, you can only pretend to.
Jerzy Russian
Thanks for the reminder.
Jerzy Russian
The fireworks are going off now, even though:
I am sure it will be much worse tomorrow night on the actual holiday.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Thanks David
oldster
And here’s the key issue:
“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”
When the majority can no longer select it’s government, then that government no longer has any just powers.
Chanting, “it’s a Republic, not a democracy!” does not change that basic fact. When a minority rules over a majority, through gerrymanders or the electoral college, then the promise of America has been betrayed.
Andrya
David, thanks for posting this.
One thing I’d like to share: until this year, I did not appreciate the significance of the complaint in the Declaration of Independence about quartering troops in private homes and also the 3rd Amendment to the Constitution. What changed my thinking was the novel “Deep River” (Karl Marlantes) which, though fiction, draws on the experience of Finnish-American immigrants to the US in the late 19th/early 20th century. In the late 19th century, Tsar Nicholas II quartered russian troops in Finnish homes (Finland being part of the russian empire at the time). Harmless? Not on your life. You have young men, feeling superior to the subordinate people (that would be the Finns) but also, to put it bluntly, wanting sex. And many Finnish homes had teenage/early 20s young women. This was a recipe for violent sexual harassment.
Wilson Heath
I’m not a fucking monarchist, but free national healthcare and legal abortion makes me wonder about paths not taken right about now.
HumboldtBlue
Hear! Hear!
Kent
As I recently pointed out to my fundie relatives, the Declaration of Independence contains 27 specific reasons for declaring independence from England, not one of them having anything to do with religion or “religious freedom”. And the only mention of God in the entire document is a Deist reference, not a Christian one.
Kent
@Andrya: Well yes, and we have the more recent example of Bucha.
Adam L. Silverman
Well now I don’t have to do my usual Independence Day post the declaration in successive parts every two hours,
prostratedragon
Variations on “America,” Charles Ives; Joseph Ripka, pipe organ
Splitting Image
It’s also worth re-reading Orwell’s appendix to 1984, and his delicious comment on the text above:
xephyr
I’m down with the independence thing, but enough of the fireworks already. I’m starting to hate the 4th of July for that alone. I have a 90 year old neighbor who is a Korean War combat vet, he doesn’t need to hear that shit, neither does my cat that’s on anti-seizure meds, and neither do I. This has become my least favorite time of year because it sounds like a war zone for 6 straight days. WTF?
AWJ
Remember when NPR tweeted the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 2017 and Trumpy Twitter went nuts accusing them of sedition?
Redshift
Hear, hear!
CaseyL
Thank you for this, David. It’s very useful to read the “source documents” every year or so!
BillinGlendaleCA
OT: Got into my Prius to make a run to the market, as the gas engine kicked on, horrible noise…my catalytic converter was given it’s independence. Happy 4th, y’all.
James E Powell
@AWJ:
I’m old enough to remember when the Fifth Dimension put the Declaration of Independence to music and the right-wingers were outraged.
I saw them sign it live. As I said, I’m old.
Kent
@ BillinGlendaleCA: Bummer. My Catalytic converter went out on my 2016 Prius. Well, the converter is fine, but the integrated heat exchanger that warms the coolant went out. There are no replacements to be found anywhere in the US so I had to jury-rig a bypass of the coolant line to make the car driveable.
Hopefully yours is a Prius model for which there are replacement catalytic converters available.
Those cars are so damn low to the ground they must have used a big jack to get under it. It isn’t like a truck where you can just wiggle under.
You can get catalytic converter shields on amazon that will prevent this sort of theft in the future.
eclare
@ BillinGlendaleCA: Oh no! So sorry.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kent: Heh, the shields look like they’re 3 to 5 times the price of a converter.
@eclare: Thanks, I’m not a happy camper. Good thing I walk to work.
guachi
No religion in there at all. But there is something about Britain not allowing immigrants to easily come to America.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
Today is not a day of celebration for me, and not only because I’m in a country whose Independence Day was celebrated on March 25th.
My sweetheart’s cousin, an Afghanistan veteran suffering from PTSD, died one year ago of a gunshot wound most likely provoked by fireworks.
Half of all Americans lost their freedom last week.
One of the two major parties, and one of the three branches of government, has been seized by religious extremists who intend to undo the work of the Revolution.
The Star-Spangled Banner does not wave o’er the land of the free and the home of the brave, not today.
Today, for me, is a day of mourning.
And of resolve to find a way to fight as best I can.
Kent
@ BillinGlendaleCA: I was quoted north of $2 grand to replace the Catalytic converter on my 2016 Prius. When they finally get off nationwide back order. The stainless steel shields on Amazon are about $135.
NotMax
Today’s Republicans would filibuster it.
//
Kent
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: Greece?
Kent
@NotMax: No. They don’t even have to filibuster according to the current rules of the Senate supported by Manchin and Sinema. It is up to the majority to find the 60 votes or nothing happens. They don’t even have to be there.
David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch
Perhaps we were too hasty.
Maybe if we ask nicely, Queen Elizabeth will take us back.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Kent: yep
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch: Take us back? Into the Land of Brexitania? What have you been smoking, and where can I get ten kilograms of it?
David ☘The Establishment☘ Koch
Gun deaths for 2019
US — 37,038
UK ——— 33
Maybe it’s there meat pyes
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kent: I was seeing much lower prices on the converters, keep in mind they’re aftermarket. It is a 2010 Prius, so that might also make a difference. I think the one shield I saw was close to $300.
Jay
@ BillinGlendaleCA:
A former worker at the Orange Apron suggests that you talk to a muffler shop. They can bend and weld in 4 pieces of 12 inch rebar when reinstalling the cat, for a few bucks more.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Jay: Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind. I know a place where I can get rebar…heh.
Jay
@ BillinGlendaleCA:
don’t get the epoxy coated stuff, just the plain, or don’t get any rebar at all. Before they fired my ass, since January, through Tool Rentals, ( we don’t rent rebar benders), I sold about 60 to local muffler shops just for cat protectors. Yeah, people steal cats up here too.
Mel
@ BillinGlendaleCA: Oh, no! That’s a cruddy surprise to have to deal with, especially during holiday weekend chaos.
It must be car hassle season. Last month, a coolant warning message popped up on my car when I started to drive out of a hospital parking lot.
Weird, I thought. The car had just been in to the dealership for scheduled maintenance service the week before, and has under 25,000 miles. I got out of the car and could see that coolant was leaking out on the driver’s side, but couldn’t pop the hood ir crawl under b/c I had just had surgery a few days before.
Waited four hours in 97 degree heat for the Volvo warranty tow to arrive. At that point, called back and got told that under no circumstances should I drive the car without filling the coolant, but that I could:
a) keep waiting indefinitely for the tow guy that nobody could reach, or
b) drive (?!?!?) to the Volvo dealership nearly an hour away, purchase a bottle of “special” Volvo coolant, drive back and do the dilution and fill myself and drive the car to the dealership but “maybe void the warranty” if the engine overheated on the way, or
c) arrange a tow at my expense, pay several hundred dollars for it and wait another two to three hours for that tow, and maybe or maybe not make it to the dealership before they closed for the day.
I chose option D. Called my brother, who did an impressive MacGyver fix involving non-adhesive, self sealing heatproof tape and two gallons of distilled water. He popped the hood, located the leak in the coolant hose, taped it, filled the coolant reservoir, and away we went to the mechanic who works on his Volvo.
The mechanic took one look at the hose, and said from under the hood, “Squirrel!”
What?
Apparently, a rogue squirrel (or possibly a city rat) had decided that the coolant hose was a fountain of deliciousness, and had chewed through it. After the mechanic replaced the chew toy hose, he showed us the tooth marks. They sure looked squirrel-esque to this farm kid.
One hose replacement, a coolant flush and replacement, a can of Tomcat rodent repellant in hand, and a psychic middle finger to Volvo roadside “assistance”, and I was finally back on the road.
Kent
@ BillinGlendaleCA: Here is WA it is illegal to install any used converters and there aren’t any aftermarket options for the 2016. I guess you are lucky with the older model. I called the dealer and two independent shops. All of them quoted me over $2 grand but none of them can even get them until they get off national back order and more arrive from Japan or wherever.
Jay
@Mel:
rubber hoses accumulate salt. Tasty to mice, rats, squirrels, chipmunks, porcupines.
Parked at Alice Lake for a long weekend hike, on the hairpin turns on the down hill descent, discovered the truck had no brakes, pedal right to the floor.
luckily, I still had the ebrake, ( cable to the rear drums), and could down shift, ( manual).
Nelle
@Andrya: This was the case for my father and his family in their village during the lingering Russian Civil war in Ukraine (now reoccupied by Russians) with the added spice of imprisonment in their house as penalty that my grandfather, a wanted man for his writing, had escaped. Four of my aunts and my grandmother were in that house, along with my father, then aged 10, and two older brothers.
Jay
@Kent:
they don’t steal cats to reinstall them.
the cat’s contain platinum and other precious metals that a less than ethical scrapyard will pay up to $250 for, that they can sell on dependent on make and model, for up to $750, to a reclaimer/smelter. They can then reclaim up to $1500 in “rare” precious metals for use in a Tesla.
eclare
@Jay: In my neighborhood we refer to stealing catalytic converters as a crack crime. My ex had one stolen out of his truck about twelve years ago.
Jay
@eclare:
here, with the right cordless tools, one guy can easily steal $1k worth, ( at scrap metal dealers) a night. It’s not really a “crack” crime.
We have “meth heads” here who steal/strip copper out of buildings, ( one level), we also have plumbers/electricians who steal copper out of reno jobs they quote on, and then guys who steal all the copper out of a 50 story condo project by just not installing it and declaring bankruptcy.
decades ago, my friend Mark acted as the General Contractor on building his own house. He was showing me around and I said, “this wall feels cold”, “can I punch the drywall?”.
yurp, the drywall “crew” stole all the insulation from the walls and ceilings, before installing the drywall.
They would have gotten away with it, ( but they did, because Mark paid his bills promptly) but for those meddling kids.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Jay: We’re a tiny store, no tool rentals. I get stopped and asked about tool rentals all the time. Nope, don’t have one. I’m an OFA so everyone thinks I know everything whichever department I happen to be in.
@Mel: I used to park my Jetta outside, had electrical issues, guy at the repair place said the rats chewed the wires. Only new car I’ve ever owned, had it for 31 years.
@Kent: Madame talked to the insurance company, they suggested aftermarket ones. I can’t wait for months to get this fixed, the car has to be smogged and registration renewed at the end of the month.
Jay
@ BillinGlendaleCA:
never, ever, never go into Tool Rental.
Orange treats it like sales, negs on the Staff constantly, and doesn’t support it, doesn’t train on it, it’s a loss leader. Nobody, in almost every store, from the DS, to the AssMan on up, has no clue about the actual job.
Aftermarket is fine, if you can get it. Otherwise, just let the DMV know what happened, ( take the names of the people you talk to) and they will probably push the tests out for you, because it has become a common problem.
Jesse
@oldster: The whole “it’s a republic not a democracy” thing always struck me as annoying sophistry. It’s obvious from the Declaration of Independence, the (obsolete) Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, that the US was self-consciously set up as a democracy. (By the way, although the “the US is not a democracy” message is designed for a domestic audience, it also serves the enemies of the US outside its borders.)
BillinGlendaleCA
@Jay: I filed a police report, so that should help with the DMV.
I read r/homedepot over at reddit and have heard about tool rental. As I said, with OFA/Deliveries we get customer questions all the time, the worst is when we’re taking an order that we’ve stored in our holding area at the far end of the store from the service desk since it is either heavy or big and customers want to stop us and ask a “quick question”. NO.
Ruckus
@xephyr:
I am an almost 73 yr old who served in the armed forces, the Navy, during the Vietnam war, although I did not serve in the combat zone. I was conflicted about serving during what I considered an unjust war. But I did join the Navy because I believe in this country, warts and all. And yes it does have warts, is imperfect, and doesn’t always do the right thing. But I do appreciate that it more often tries than not. We are at a low point in our history. We have been here before, possibly in worse terms. We do not all agree on the country we have and how it should be run, but it seems that most of us have very good concepts of what this country should be. Yes we have our differences, yes we often do not measure up to the concepts we tout. And we seemed to have arrived at a demarcation point in how we think our country should be run, how our freedoms should be seen, how our lives should be sustained. We need to understand what a democracy is, what are it’s limits and what it’s limits should be, because we are at a crossroads. I didn’t put myself in harms way for this country lightly, most of the people I served with didn’t either. And neither has most of our most susceptible population. We deserve to be a better nation, than a so called democracy that restricts half our citizens to second class status, that have less bodily autonomy than the other half. We deserve better. We’ve earned better. We are supposed to be better. We have to become better. We have faults, no doubt about it. All human endeviors do, it’s part of the process. But if we are a true democracy, we can work together, and make it better. This country should not be about money and earning it in a less than fair way. We should have a tax system that is realistic, in that those with the most – pay the most, rather than the opposite. There are many things that need fixing but the devotion to money should not get in the way of the rights or freedom of the citizens. Your money should not buy you more freedom or the lessen the risk of paying for mistakes/attacks upon the very democracy that we live in. We have to do better. We have to recognize that this is a different time than when this country was formed, that people can not have their lives made smaller because of money or religion. We have to understand that your religion can not intrude upon others. It is your right to believe, it is absolutely not your right to impose your religion upon others.
That’s more than enough for one night
Ok maybe not. I am 2 days away from celebrating my discharge date from the Navy 49 yrs ago.
There go two miscreants
I’m sure this is not an original thought, but it is striking how the list of grievances against George III can be read as “we object to this super-wealthy guy jerking our lives around”. That’s a consideration that we could use a lot more of now! Plenty of examples at hand.
Jay
@ BillinGlendaleCA:
yurp. Got shit for never wearing an apron, cause if I left Tool Rental to go to the can, it would take me two hours to get back, ( we arn’t allowed to say “no”, GET you know).
it two years for store MGMT to buy a clue and allow Pro Desk, Measurements and OFA’s not to wear aprons.
Professor Bigfoot
If I am tempted to “celebrate” this day and that Declaration, I remind myself that it was written by a group of slave-owning English colonists four years after the Lord Chief Justice of the King’s Bench declared that there could be no slavery in England.
That’s no coincidence; that’s causality.
Baud
@Professor Bigfoot:
Day off work is a day off work.
Professor Bigfoot
@Baud: make no mistake, I WILL eat barbecue and drink beer today… but that’s because barbecue and beer are unalloyed good in themselves.
But “celebrate” American independence? When I KNOW they rebelled just to keep my ancestors in chains?
Yeah, fuck that.
But the ‘cue is good.
Matt McIrvin
The complaints about George riling up the Native Americans always struck me as a jarring note, right there in the original text, reminding us of all the disturbing undercurrents here.
I just saw ART’s non-traditional staging of the musical “1776”, which I suppose runs with the ball passed from “1776” to “Hamilton” and back again. It is astoundingly good. But while the play famously does deal with the irreconcilable discord between slavery and “all men are created equal” (“Mr. Adams, I give you a toast. Hail Boston, Hail Charleston, who stinketh the most?”)… that other original sin of America is so noticeably absent in its treatment of the Declaration’s birth that they felt the need to add an acknowledgement about it before the play opens.
Watching it right now, of course, new tensions arise from the story. Should we take it as a celebration of the creation of the US, warts and all?… Or a paean to putting your neck on the line, when things get intolerable, in a bloody revolution that will split your society apart?
rikyrah
Thanks for the reminder
Wag
@ BillinGlendaleCA: That sucks. My kids have a 98 Accord that they share. This past Spring the cat was stolen off the car TWICE. In a month. After the second time we had a steel cage constructed around the cat to make it more difficult to take.
karensky
@oldster: Thanks.
Geminid
@There go two miscreants: The Signers’ real beef was with Parliament, which enacted the “Intolrable Acts” that precipitated the war. Parliament acted in the King’s name, though and it was expedient politically to direct the grievances at the King.
But your point is well taken; Parliament was just a gang of rich assholes anyway.
Baud
@Wag:
Excellent autocorrect.
Wag
@Baud: In Denver catalytic converters are stolen so frequently that everyone just refers to them as “cats” as in “Some asshole stole the cat off my Prius last night”. The thieves have gotten so quick and so bold that the second theft happened in the parking lot of their school during class. Three cars, all Hondas, had their cats stolen in 10 minutes
zhena gogolia
@xephyr: I’m with you.
Last night they were pretty distant, so okay, but then they decided to do a reprise at midnight and wake me up after I’d fallen asleep.
H.E.Wolf
Excerpts from the opening and closing paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence, spoken by various descendants of the signers. Multi-racial, because of Jefferson and possibly others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kEZCmdnVpc
The Truffle
@Ruckus: Thanks for the perspective. Maybe this is akin to the Progressive Era or the dawn of the civil rights era. Maybe the extreme right has jumped the shark. Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe.
Aurona
A nice overlay of our current situation, with #KingGeorgeCourtofSupremes as the current dead enders. My feeling is before this whole thing goes belly up, we re-organize into regions. Regions that overlap states, such as California/Oregon/Washington (and BC as a trade partner) formally known as Cascadia. Banding the liberal states together as regions will at least give us a shot at survival. At least confuse the #SouthernRacists and #KillersOfWomen for a few years to give our daughters & granddaughters a life lived without their harassment. I see nothing that stops us from usurping power from those who stole ours.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Aurona: Rural Cascadia might violently object to being governed by Sacramento or Olympia.
Plus, like with all of these USSR-style breakup fantasies, WHO GETS THE NUKES?
BDSchnoo
@ BillinGlendaleCA:
Am new here, so hope this isn’t a duplicate reply. Having been through catalytic converter theft, found that Muffler Tech (6160 Florin Road, Sacramento, CA 95823, Tel. 916-421-0399) has very informative videos on YouTube about repairing the damage, dealing with insurance, deterring catalytic converter theft, along with reviews and advice. If you’re in CA, CO, NY, or ME, have to look at the state regulations for CARB-Compliant aftermarket converters if you’re not replacing it with an OEM cat. The Muffler Tech YouTube channel is: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRK1-xQKhhEuWJhjOlRbxYg/videos
kindness
Still good words. Even after all this time.
Sister Golden Bear
The Brits provide a little much-needed levity today:
Kayla Rudbek
@ BillinGlendaleCA: I would say that the aftermarket one would work (our Prius also had its catalytic converter stolen in the middle of the night, Mr. Rudbek put a cheaper aftermarket one on) but California may be stricter on what they accept for emissions than Virginia is.
Truckinbroke
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