This whole Koran flushing incident has, as one of my commenters noted, become nothing more than a Rorschach Test.
If you, as I do, believe that allegations of Koran flushing are entirely plausible and not just bug-eyed speculation by a Bush-hating and military-hating media, I would tend to agree with you. Given the evidence of confirmed torture, confirmed other religous abuses, the reports from detainees, the FBI, some military personnel, some former detainees, the International Red Cross, the ACLU, and Amnesty International, even when you know that the detainees have a reason to lie, I do not think you are being unreasonable, anti-military, anti-administration, or foolish.
There is, however, no way for both sides of this issue to come together if these are the standards of evidence:
Abu Ghraib happened because poorly-trained, unethical soldiers were allowed to supervise prisoners without proper supervision themselves. Gitmo is used to detain suspects with information the government deems important to the war effort, meaning it is under Washington’s eye.
Sorry. Until the press can magic up a document authorizing Koran defacement as an interrogation technique, or pictures surface, or maybe we get a named source, I’m not buying it.
If we can be subjected to pictures from Abu Ghraib or Saddam Hussein doing laundry in his tighty-whities, we can get a picture of Gitmo abuse.
If those are the rules of evidence, and everything else is to fall under a ‘see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil’ blanket, we are simply an at impasse. I might add, that by these standards, Abu Ghraib only happened because there were pictures.
At any rate, I am done on this subject. People believe what they want to believe, and this isn’t about press bias anymore in my eyes. This is about subjugating the media to nothing more than a propaganda organ of the government.
Bruce
Sometimes you can be really dense. The quote says, among other things, ‘a named source’ which we had in Abu Ghraib in the form of military informants. There would have been no Abu Ghraib if the military had not turned in their own. It had nothing to do with there being pictures. Abu Ghraib was not some rumor that no one would comment on. The military was pursuing courts marshall in January when CBS got the pictures in March. No news people thought there was a story without the pictures (which were released by the military) but that does not mean the story had not been reported. It had been. CBS broke nothing; they sensationalized it.
I think we need real people willing to stand up and the Koran flushing really happened or drop the story. Of course former detainees will say anything they think will cause trouble; They proclaim themselves as our avowed enemies. DOH! I do not take their claims very seriously. But if some US military person from Gitmo stepped up and said it was true then I would buy it. That would be just like Abu Ghraib and lot less like the fabrications of Dan Rather.
Randolph Fritz
“[…] this isn’t about press bias anymore […]”
Guy, it never was.
Karlo
You mean the military doesn’t have a publicly accessible document advocating defacing the Koran? What a surprise! Of course, for doubting Thomases, the burden of proof can always be raised. It’s a bit like the “Iraqi threat.” Even after lie upon lie has been uncovered, we’re told that there is still some possible conceivably plausible scenario according to which we were all threatened by Iraq (threatened enough to go to war).
jcricket
Meeting those standards of proof is already made more impossible because after Abu Ghraib the military banned cameras in its prisons.
Pictures are your burden of proof? Ban cameras.
Documents? Shred them as a matter of policy.
Next the wing-nuts will be demanding live streaming video before they believe it, because the previously taped video could be staged.
neil
Sadly, John, the majority of Americans -do- believe that Abu Ghraib only happened because there were pictures. And that’s why the Pentagon moved so quickly to stop any more pictures from leaking, and their success has kept the story from going anywhere.
Someday there will be more, worse pictures. But until then, or until a Democrat gets elected, the abuse will continue unchecked.
Kimmitt
Time to release the rest of the pics and videos, I guess.
John Cole
The quote says, among other things, ‘a named source’ which we had in Abu Ghraib in the form of military informants. There would have been no Abu Ghraib if the military had not turned in their own.
This only got out into the media because there were pictures.
shark
This is about subjugating the media to nothing more than a propaganda organ of the government
As opposed to being the propoganda organ of the DNC like it is now…
Nash
As opposed to being the propoganda organ of the DNC like it is now…
Your entire worldview collapses if this is not true. So, it will remain important for you to continue to believe this and then, when even you can no longer believe it, continue to claim it. Many on the right are further along this curve than you: Karl Rove, e.g., knows it is not true, but also knows he must incite you to continue to make the claim just the same. There is a converging synergy to this victim’s status you need to hold so dearly.
Captain Wrath
Bruce nails it. Nicely done.
Why, John, is it so audacious and parisan to demand at least SOME substantiation before hurling accusations? You lost me.
“This only got out into the media because there were pictures.”
And Neil…
“Sadly, John, the majority of Americans -do- believe that Abu Ghraib only happened because there were pictures.”
Uh, no, most Americans believe that had there been no photos, it would not have turned into the media feeding frenzy that it did. The story was released by the Pentagon months before the first photo was seen. The press, NOT the government, mostly ignored it until they got the kink-fest photos to show over, and over, and OVER again, ad nauseum.
And Neil again…
“And that’s why the Pentagon moved so quickly to stop any more pictures from leaking, and their success has kept the story from going anywhere.”
Uh, what? The Abu Gharib story went NO WHERE? Neil, you are joking, right. Please tell me you are joking…
deb
“Your entire worldview collapses if this is not true. So, it will remain important for you to continue to believe this and then, when even you can no longer believe it, continue to claim it. Many on the right are further along this curve than you: Karl Rove, e.g., knows it is not true, but also knows he must incite you to continue to make the claim just the same. There is a converging synergy to this victim’s status you need to hold so dearly.”
Right back at ya Dudley…
It’s amazing that you are so oblivious to the fact that this could apply to either side.
Personally, I’m not buying nothing until an investigation has shown it to be true. I don’t think that is asking too much…. Why should I automaticly believe people that are our enemies? Why should I just condemn our soilders based on an allegation? Aren’t we supposed to be ‘innocent’ until proven guilty? Don’y you believe in that standard anymore? Or, is it only for the people that you want it to apply to?
Nash
Sorry to disappoint you, deb, but I’ve been feeling rather non-victim-like for quite some time. So um, no, your are just talking silly talk.
Going back to what I actually said you might notice my comment was directed to shark’s sheer nonsense that the so-called MSM is a propaganda arm of the DNC. I’m quite sure I didn’t have a single thing to say about the relative believability of the principles involved, so I’m also quite sure that you didn’t actually read what I said or understand it if you did read it.
But, if you want to join shark in that fake victim’s world, go right ahead–I once visited there and remember it as vaguely warm and reassuring.
Mr.Ortiz
Uh, what? The Abu Gharib story went NO WHERE? Neil, you are joking, right. Please tell me you are joking…
I think “the story” he was referring to is the larger story of torture in US military prisons. The Abu Ghraib story went far. The torture story stopped at Abu Ghraib.
But nobody’s equating bible flushing with torture, so that’s besides the point. The point is that reasonable people have seen enough evidence to conclude that the Newsweek story was probably true.
Supporting the troops is all well and good, but people on the right have taken it to the level of hero worship. Face it, great people do stupid things and stupid people join great organizations. One way or another, somebody did something stupid and it made Newsweek.
By the way, how many people here have read the actual Newsweek article that’s causing this ruckus? Here it is. Doesn’t exactly dwell on the toilet bit, does it? Yet the people now lambasting Newsweek are the same people who defended Bush’s claim that Saddam tried to buy uranium for a nuclear bomb on the basis that it was “only sixteen words.”
Ben Lange
Koran-flushing isn’t torture.
It’s called using a monster’s pathologies against him.
We need to see more of it.
Ben Lange
Koran-flushing isn’t torture.
It’s called using a monster’s pathologies against him.
We need to see more of it.
Ben Lange
Koran-flushing isn’t torture.
It’s called using a monster’s pathologies against him.
We need to see more of it.
jack
John, you’re using the ACLU, Amnesty International and the International Red Cross as valid sources? Never mind detainess…
All of these organizations have exhibited a hate-the-US-first policy and all have been notoriously lax in condemning much of the horror of tyranny in the world–particularly horrors committed by their ideological fellow travelers.
And, let’s be honest here, flushing a Quran? Please. Our Islamic friends routinely desecrate the holy books of other religions AS A MATTER OF STATE POLICY and there is no uproar. No riots.
If putting a book in a toilet is all that I need to do to make someone crack, them heigh-ho Ti-D-Bowl. No need for torture at all.
Of course, if you decide to consider that torture…..
America is a great nation, the greatest history has ever seen. And we should try to hold ourselves to a better standard than the dreck that thinks terrorism is a valid tactic of war, but when we are holding ourselves to a standard so high that our people are dying as a result, I think it’s time to bend down, get our hands dirty and fight to win. We can argue the niceties of what needed to be done AFTER our war is won, AFTER the people who want to kill us are dead or surrendered.
Lee
jack jack jack…. WE (the US) are held to higher standards. other nations are allowed to sin–especially against us. But when our individuals commit errors in judgments (naked pictures, stale bread for prisoners, exposed underware of saddam’s), we, the perfect people of this union, must be made to pay–er, uh, bush must pay (by the almighty media). please keep your patroitism subdued until we can achieve perfection.
tim
Ben Lang (ignoring his impatient clicking) needs to learn that there’s more to a military action than blowing shit up and killing people.
I would suspect that Ben would be shocked that mere conversation _with people who hate you_ has done more to “win the peace” than blowing shit up ever has.
But what do I know – I must be a pussy, because I don’t reach for a bomb every time someone looks at me crosseyed.
Lord, I wonder why I still try to champion conservative values sometimes. It would be much easier if some of my “fellow travellers” were never given telephones.
Bruce
John Cole said; “This only got out into the media because there were pictures.”
This statement is completely false. News reports were on the wires in January several months before CBS sensationalized the story. You can pretend that the military did not take interest in this until CBS did the story in March but you will be lying to yourself and anyone who overhears you. Why do you insist on making statements you cannot back up?
John Cole
Yes, you are right. How about- this only resonated in the media because there were pictures?
neil
I dunno about that, John. The torture story does resonate with the media, they continue plugging away at it, but the people don’t care, so it doesn’t get play in the pop news. Not as much as about a hamburger ad starring Paris Hilton (what a coup that was, eh? they didn’t even have to pay to have the ad aired…) News is on TV now, and TV news needs pictures.
Kimmitt
People didn’t care until they saw the pictures. This isn’t about the media; it’s about us. We are, as a country, pretty far into “see no evil.”
jacitelli
tIM–
HATING YOU AND WANTING TO KILL YOU ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.