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You are here: Home / Partisan Hackery

Partisan Hackery

by John Cole|  August 18, 20054:22 pm| 62 Comments

This post is in: General Stupidity

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I understand the folks at Daily Kos aren’t big Bush boosters. I get that they aren’t fans. I have figured out they don’t like them. But this sort of nonsense is just preposterous:

Bush can’t meet with Cindy. Not anymore. It would be seen as a surrender. But he could’ve spoken out against this desecration.

But he didn’t. Of course.

The idea that because Bush did not speak out about some yahoo who ran his truck through a bunch of crosses, he is somehow awful, is petty, silly, and one of the reasons it is often hard to take Kos seriously.

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62Comments

  1. 1.

    BinkyBoy

    August 18, 2005 at 4:28 pm

    Would it have been better to have diffused the situation using kind gentle words or just ignoring the elephant sitting on your front lawn?

    The man that ran his truck through the crosses is most likely just the first in a long string of yahoo’s that will just make Red America look even more inbred than it already does and will only increase the visability and viability of Ms. Sheehan.

  2. 2.

    Rocky Smith

    August 18, 2005 at 4:30 pm

    I heard that many parents of deceased soldiers resented their names being used on those crosses on the side of the road. Their soldiers would not have supported the antiwar positions of Cindy Sheehan and co. Was it right to mow them down? Of course not. They shouldn’t have been there in the first place though.

  3. 3.

    Jim Allen

    August 18, 2005 at 4:37 pm

    Let me get this straight.

    To express his disapproval of Cindy Sheehan, Larry Northern takes his pickup truck and drives over crosses that were set up to commemorate the sacrifice of over hundreds people who died for Bush’s “noble cause” (taking out a bunch of American flags in the process, as well).

    And Bush, whose party wants to bring back God and Jesus to American politics and wants to add an amendment to the US Constitution banning the descecration of the American flag, cannot be bothered to take a few moments out his five-week vacation to decry the actions of this asshole.

    And you’re OK with that?

  4. 4.

    BinkyBoy

    August 18, 2005 at 4:43 pm

    Rocky hates those that read the names of fallen soldiers on the news, too.

    Insensitive bastards. Those names should be copywritten. Get on that, Rocky.

  5. 5.

    Steve

    August 18, 2005 at 4:48 pm

    Well, if an antiwar liberal had destroyed a ton of crosses at a war memorial, I’m sure the Republicans wouldn’t make an issue of it. So they’re just being fair.

    The real reason for Bush or anyone to speak up is purely political. The yahoos who are pulling these stunts and calling Cindy Sheehan all kinds of names are making the cause look awful. Plenty of Americans are prepared to accept politicians being called all kinds of nasty names, but they’re not prepared to see a soldier’s mother as fair game for attacks. Bush set the right tone with his earlier comments about how he respects her opinion, yadda yadda, and he should try to keep his supporters on the same wavelength.

  6. 6.

    bains

    August 18, 2005 at 4:49 pm

    I’d agree on charges of vandalism, but Kossack’s howling about desecration? That’s a hoot.

    Maybe Mr. Northern should have labeled his work “Protest Art…”

  7. 7.

    Jim Allen

    August 18, 2005 at 4:59 pm

    bains, while “Kossack’s howling about the descration” may be a “hoot” to you, I fail to see why running down a memorial to fallen soldiers doesn’t spark some outrage on the right as well as the left. Since when is dishonoring the memory of US military killed in action considered “Protest Art” by the right?

  8. 8.

    Jim Caputo

    August 18, 2005 at 5:08 pm

    Bush can’t meet with Cindy. Not anymore. It would be seen as a surrender. But he could’ve spoken out against this desecration.

    But he didn’t. Of course.

    I think the point is that unless Bush is secretly applauding the actions of that idiot in the truck, he should have at least said something condemning the act or, at the very least, asking people not to resort to violence to get their point across. He probably should have said something when the other yahoo, the neighbor, fired his gun to intimidate the protesters.

    But that would be leading, and we’ll have none of that.

  9. 9.

    Rocky Smith

    August 18, 2005 at 5:09 pm

    Rocky hates those that read the names of fallen soldiers on the news, too.

    Insensitive bastards. Those names should be copywritten. Get on that, Rocky.

    Gee- I thought I stated that it wasn’t right to mow down those crosses? Didn’t I? Why don’t you look over my post again. I stand by my statement that many parents of lost soldiers resent their names being used by this group. Do you deny that? Get your own copywriter BinkBoy, and don’t assume to speak for me and what I think- EVER!

  10. 10.

    Steve

    August 18, 2005 at 5:13 pm

    I was curious if Rocky had any support for what he “heard,” but he seems like such an Internet tough guy now, I’m kind of afraid to ask.

  11. 11.

    Jim Caputo

    August 18, 2005 at 5:21 pm

    Since when is dishonoring the memory of US military killed in action considered “Protest Art” by the right?

    If the memorial makes Bush uncomfortable, or if it causes a precipitous drop in the polls, then to hell with the troops memory….after all, Bush needs to keep to his exercise routine.

    This is what the right wing elite has been doing for years though. They talk about supporting the troops and they buy their magnetic ribbons. But they don’t send their sons and daughters and they cry if anyone even mentions getting the troops what they really need through a wartime tax.

    And when some vet who put his/her life on the line in their war dares to speak out against this war, they start digging into his/her past and looking for anyone who can come on their shows to discredit the person, not the person’s position, the person. It’s really disgusting.

    From the republican dictionary…
    support (verb) – 1. willing to sacrifice in order to meet political and economic goals, 2. to ply with verbal praise until such time as the object of that praise disagrees.

  12. 12.

    bains

    August 18, 2005 at 5:23 pm

    Jim, while I presume many on the right think the faux gaveyard set up at camp Sheehan is in fact a dishonor to fallen soldiers, I think you’ll find very few who object to charges of vandalism, or criminal mischief even. Nor would they consider Mr. Northern’s actions protest art.

    What amuses me is that those bandying about charges of desecration sure have tin ears when the right complains about representations of the Virgin Mary splattered with fecal matter, or the cross submerged in urine. Goose/gander kind of thing.

  13. 13.

    Capriccio

    August 18, 2005 at 5:32 pm

    First off, Kos doesn’t say, because Bush doesn’t speak out about some yahoo he is somehow “awful.” Kos says he doesn’t speak out, but:”Of course.” Of course. Because he is George W. Bush, and his awfulness is by now quite beside the point. He doesn’t speak out against the lies of Swiftboat Vets on his behalf; he doesn’t speak out against Rove for illegally outing a CIA agent on his behalf; he doesn’t speak out against a yahoo who runs a truck over crosses. It’s a pattern of behavior and he can’t do otherwise. That’s because he is George W. Bush, and he never ever speaks out against anyone who does dirty work for him. Some may call it loyalty; some may call it cowardice. But basically he’s like the scorpion in that allegory about the scorpion and the frog. It’s his nature.

    Second, JC, you should really take Kos seriously…as often as possible…for three good reasons:
    1. Recent rankings of blogs show that Kos is doing very well indeed…#1 with a bullet I believe (and a worthy goal for you, no?).
    2. Kos is about to break beyond the blogosphere with what sounds like a pretty well researched book (and not some Hewitt-like masturbatory fantasy about the millenium of the One Party State).
    3. And most importantly, Kos’s book, in conjunction with his blog, is attempting to do what it seems you, JC, have been courageously attempting to do at Balloon Juice…and that is restore the soul of his party by rescuing it from…hmmm, what’s the expression I’m looking for here? Oh, yes, from those we might more accurately describe as partisan hacks.

  14. 14.

    KC

    August 18, 2005 at 5:34 pm

    I totally agree, John.

  15. 15.

    StupidityRules

    August 18, 2005 at 5:48 pm

    I hope Larry Northern wasn’t appalled by this story.

  16. 16.

    Mike

    August 18, 2005 at 7:11 pm

    “BinkyBoy Says:

    The man that ran his truck through the crosses is most likely just the first in a long string of yahoo’s that will just make Red America look even more inbred than it already does and will only increase the visability and viability of Ms. Sheehan.”

    Yes the Ghettos of “Blue” America don’t look inbred at all, only intelligent gentle folk live in Blue America unlike we inbreds down South here.

  17. 17.

    Mike

    August 18, 2005 at 7:13 pm

    Jim Allen Says:
    Let me get this straight.

    “To express his disapproval of Cindy Sheehan, Larry Northern takes his pickup truck and drives over crosses that were set up to commemorate the sacrifice of over hundreds people who died for Bush’s “noble cause” (taking out a bunch of American flags in the process, as well).”

    Please. Those crosses were there because of POLITICS, NOT to commemorate a damn thing. As for running over them, yes the guy’s an idiot, and he is being prosecuted, but let’s put this in perspective. There’s nothing “noble” going on with these Leftist wackos.

  18. 18.

    John S.

    August 18, 2005 at 8:09 pm

    Yes the Ghettos of “Blue” America don’t look inbred at all, only intelligent gentle folk live in Blue America unlike we inbreds down South here.

    That’s a hell of a chip you have on your shoulder there, Mike. A little over the top with your ‘assessment’ of the situation, but no doubt you’ve seen the data on divorce rates, welfare and crime that don’t exactly paint a pretty picture of ‘Red State’ America as compared to ‘Blue State’ America.

  19. 19.

    Steve

    August 18, 2005 at 8:21 pm

    Mike apparently hates liberals so much that he doesn’t believe they are capable of feeling sorrow for their dead friends and relatives. It must be nice to be able to look into all of their souls like that and discern their motivation.

  20. 20.

    Caroline

    August 18, 2005 at 8:59 pm

    In case you didn’t know already, we southerners have boulders on their shoulders. We are still steaming from the “War of Northern Agresssion.”

  21. 21.

    Steven

    August 18, 2005 at 9:09 pm

    In order to Kos or Atrios seriously, you have to read RedState, The Corner or Powerline first. Then Kos makes perfect sense.

  22. 22.

    Mike

    August 18, 2005 at 9:53 pm

    “Steve Says:
    Mike apparently hates liberals so much that he doesn’t believe they are capable of feeling sorrow for their dead friends and relatives. It must be nice to be able to look into all of their souls like that and discern their motivation.”

    So the only crosses there were the ones of family and friends then? You believe that? You berate me for thinking this was politically motivated, that I can somehow look into their souls and see their motivations. Yet, that’s exactly what you did, you looked into their souls and somehow came to the conclusion their motives were noble. That’s the “pot calling the kettle black” there pal.

  23. 23.

    Mike

    August 18, 2005 at 9:55 pm

    “John S. Says:
    Yes the Ghettos of “Blue” America don’t look inbred at all, only intelligent gentle folk live in Blue America unlike we inbreds down South here.
    That’s a hell of a chip you have on your shoulder there, Mike. A little over the top with your ‘assessment’ of the situation, but no doubt you’ve seen the data on divorce rates, welfare and crime that don’t exactly paint a pretty picture of ‘Red State’ America as compared to ‘Blue State’ America.”

    No chip, I just can’t stand when condescending little pricks talk down to people just because of where they live. We’re doing just fine down here, you worry about your side of the divide, I’ll worry about mine. Sound good?

  24. 24.

    Mike

    August 18, 2005 at 9:56 pm

    “Caroline Says:
    In case you didn’t know already, we southerners have boulders on their shoulders. We are still steaming from the “War of Northern Agresssion.””

    I have no clue what this is trying to say.

  25. 25.

    Mason

    August 18, 2005 at 10:00 pm

    Because some yahoo asshole runs over a memorial in his truck, BUSH is the bad guy for not saying something about it?! I can just see it — if he had said something, you yahoos would be bashing him for bringing his politics into it, and that the whole damn thing was Rove’s idea.

  26. 26.

    Geek, Esq.

    August 18, 2005 at 10:14 pm

    The entire Sheehan thing is an absurd circus, I agree.

    At the same time, I could link to stuff at redstate.org with similarly silly stuff.

    My favorite was when Tacitus condemned the entire progressive movement because of . . . the name of Margaret Cho’s dog.

  27. 27.

    jg

    August 18, 2005 at 10:32 pm

    In case you didn’t know already, we southerners have boulders on their shoulders. We are still steaming from the “War of Northern Agresssion.”

    She’s saying they’re still pissed about losing the (first) Civil War.

  28. 28.

    Far North

    August 19, 2005 at 12:22 am

    Whew folks, why is it so hard to understand, comprehend the point of Sheehan’s actions?

    Consider that we moved into Iraq to address an iminent threat to our security posed by Saddams WMDs, nuclear arsenal, biological weapons, etc. Only the threat wasn’t real. There were none of those things. So, we went to war to address a threat that didn’t exist and Bush was a bit off the mark on a few of the facts. But hey, it could happen to anybody…considering that reliable information from the Middle East is tough to come by. So what that we went to war against a country that wasn’t really a threat?

    Now, all this crap about having to have a plan for the occupation? Hell, all of you heard the same thing GWB did. The Iraqis were going to greet us with flowers. Now, why the hell would GWB send 200,000 US soldiers into Iraq. That would mean the Iraqis would have to come up with more flowers. And let’s face it, they had it tough under Saddam for all those years. And growing flowers in the dessert ain’t easy, bub. So, yea, it’s understandable that Bush wouldn’t have a plan for all that icky insurgent stuff. Who’d a thunk that there would even be any insurgents.

    Bottom line, folks, is that Bush lauched a war that was unecessary. Iraq was not a threat to the US. Then, he let down every single man, woman and child in Iraq and every single man and woman in the US military as well as their families by his incompetent planning and execution of the occupation of Iraq.

    Cindy Sheehan is trying to hold someone accountable. She is trying to do what so many in the MSN have failed to do -Hold someone accountable for the Iraq debacle.

    We are still bogged down in Iraq a full 2.5 years after the start of the war and a full 2.25 years after Bush declared “mission accomplished”. How can you blame Cindy Sheehan for demanding accountability.

  29. 29.

    MisterPundit

    August 19, 2005 at 1:17 am

    Was it right to mow them down? Of course not. They shouldn’t have been there in the first place though.

    I think you raised an interesting point. Everything depends on whether you see the crosses as a memorial, or just another prop in Sheehan’s political theatre. At least some of the parents who lost sons in Iraq believe the latter, and have asked their loved one’s crosses to be removed.

  30. 30.

    Far North

    August 19, 2005 at 3:21 am

    Theater, eh MisterPundit? You want some theater? Well, let’s see. How about that that little “Top Gun” stunt back in May of 03? Remember MisterPundit? Remember Top Gun Bush landing on the aircraft carrier? Remember “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED”, MisterPundit? Remember the struting Bush, in his flight suit, taking his victory lap? How’s that for theatre? Course, our infallable Commander-in-Chief might have been a tad bit premature in his theatrical Top-Gun moment, what with those pesky insurgents and those gol-dern US soldiers dying every day. Can’t they fight harder and save the president some political capital. Our President just wants to move on with his life.

    Theatre, eh MisterPundit? Nothing is more stunning in politics than the hypocrisy of the new-century. conservative.

    Way-to-go.

  31. 31.

    daddyx

    August 19, 2005 at 4:48 am

    This is what I call theater, Far North.

    From transcripts of an interview with Dana Milbanks:

    They key for the antiwar movement is to use Sheehan as a symbol but not to make the movement about her. Last night was an effort to broaden beyond Sheehan to other parents. That’s why MoveOn told people to bring pictures of children even if they aren’t in the military, and organizers handed out stickers saying ‘mom’ and ‘uncle’ and so forth, even if the ‘son’ or ‘nephew’ wasn’t in Iraq.

    As noted by Tim Blair…

  32. 32.

    Mason

    August 19, 2005 at 6:02 am

    How can you blame Cindy Sheehan for demanding accountability.

    Oh.. is that what it’s called now?

  33. 33.

    John S.

    August 19, 2005 at 8:36 am

    No chip, I just can’t stand when condescending little pricks talk down to people just because of where they live. We’re doing just fine down here, you worry about your side of the divide, I’ll worry about mine. Sound good?

    You still sound like you have a major chip, and you are just as condescending as those you want to chide for doing so. The reality is ‘your side’ (interesting choice of words) isn’t doing just fine. You have serious issues, just as the ‘other side’ (what is this, the Civil War era?) does.

    And ‘my side’ of the divide is the same as yours, since I also live in the South. And your suggestion doesn’t sound good to me, because I don’t believe in secession (although you apparently do). We are one country, not two.

    Try jamming your foot in your mouth a little farther next time if you can manage.

  34. 34.

    Jim Allen

    August 19, 2005 at 8:44 am

    Mike says: “No chip, I just can’t stand when condescending little pricks talk down to people just because of where they live. We’re doing just fine down here, you worry about your side of the divide, I’ll worry about mine. Sound good?”

    I’ll take your complaint seriously when the condescending little pricks on the right stop talking down to “Massachusetts liberals”. I’ll take the likes of the Kennedy brothers, Paul Tsongas, Tip O’Neill and, yes, John Kerry over yahoos like Trent Lott, Strom Thurmond, DINO Zell Miller, Jesse Helms and Tom Delay any day.

  35. 35.

    DougJ

    August 19, 2005 at 9:19 am

    I’m sorry but that ‘yahoo’ as you call him was simply expressing himself as he is entitled to do under the constitution. If the america-hating lefties don’t like it, they can leave.

    And as for all the whining about his destruction of flags and crosses, look, when libruls destroy flags and crosses, it is to make a point, a point against America, against Christianity, or whatever. When this guy ran over the crosses and flags, it was to PROTECT America from the anti-war, Michael Moore whackos who are trying to embarrass the president.

    To me, the guy is a hero.

  36. 36.

    Jim Allen

    August 19, 2005 at 9:40 am

    DougJ says: “I’m sorry but that ‘yahoo’ as you call him was simply expressing himself as he is entitled to do under the constitution. If the america-hating lefties don’t like it, they can leave.

    And as for all the whining about his destruction of flags and crosses, look, when libruls destroy flags and crosses, it is to make a point, a point against America, against Christianity, or whatever. When this guy ran over the crosses and flags, it was to PROTECT America from the anti-war, Michael Moore whackos who are trying to embarrass the president.

    To me, the guy is a hero.”

    Wow. It’s OK to destroy crosses and flags? When did this happen?

    Running down crosses and flags is protecting America from Michael Moore?

    It’s OK as long as they’re erected by “libruls”? (Someone get this man a spelling dictionary).

    Absolutely stunning. Why do right-wingers hate God and America so much?

  37. 37.

    Mike

    August 19, 2005 at 10:15 am

    John S. Says:

    “And ‘my side’ of the divide is the same as yours, since I also live in the South. And your suggestion doesn’t sound good to me, because I don’t believe in secession (although you apparently do). We are one country, not two.”

    Yes we do have some serious issues. Issues which we should be addressing, without any “helpful advice” from Blue Staters. Are you actually from the South, or just a carpetbagger? I need to know so as to tell whether to just ignore you or not. Thanks.

  38. 38.

    Mike

    August 19, 2005 at 10:20 am

    Jim Allen Says:

    “I’ll take your complaint seriously when the condescending little pricks on the right stop talking down to “Massachusetts liberals”. I’ll take the likes of the Kennedy brothers, Paul Tsongas, Tip O’Neill and, yes, John Kerry over yahoos like Trent Lott, Strom Thurmond, DINO Zell Miller, Jesse Helms and Tom Delay any day.”

    No problem, you can have ’em. Just keep them from passing liberal laws that affect people outside of their regions and I frankly couldn’t care less what they do. Whatever they want to do to the liberals in New England I couldn’t care less about.

  39. 39.

    EZSmirkzz

    August 19, 2005 at 10:23 am

    As a Liberal and a Christian all I can say is activities designed to antagonize, debase or abuse another person, group or culture are neither Christian nor American. The individuals that do these things may be both.

    Generally those who deposit individuals and other groups with their sweeping generaliztions into trash piles forget that they are sweeping themselves up into the same trash pile because you have one thing in common with each other, no principles.

    If it is wrong to desecrate a flag, then what motivation changes the principle? If it is wrong to desecrate religious symbols then what motivation changes the principle? If it is wrong to deny the right to life to a fetus or civilians, then what motivation changes the principle?

    Rules have exceptions, principles do not. Without principles on what basis does one establish their ethics, beyond that of opportunism and/or convenience? The left and right have more in common than they realize, chasing down the slippery slope of human nature. Perhaps those enlightend ones amongst you on each side of the aisle will take the time to enlighten your fellow travelers, so as not to drag the rest of us down with your parsing of unprincipled behavior.

  40. 40.

    Jim Allen

    August 19, 2005 at 10:24 am

    Mike says: “No problem, you can have ‘em. Just keep them from passing liberal laws that affect people outside of their regions and I frankly couldn’t care less what they do. Whatever they want to do to the liberals in New England I couldn’t care less about.”

    Apparently, Mike, you have a woeful ignorance of what the role of the Federal legislative branch is. It’s not the role of the US House of Representatives and the US Senate to pass laws that apply just to particular regions. Try again when you catch up a bit.

  41. 41.

    BinkyBoy

    August 19, 2005 at 10:26 am

    Poor Mike, so assuming and so wrong all the time.

    What I wrote is that the South SEEMS inbred because of actions like what Northern did.

    You read it how you wanted so you could attempt to take a moral high road, bash my words and ignore what I said.

    Oh well, what I can I expect from such an inbred?

  42. 42.

    John S.

    August 19, 2005 at 10:28 am

    Are you actually from the South, or just a carpetbagger? I need to know so as to tell whether to just ignore you or not.

    Wow. That’s a new land speed record for zero to ad-hominem. Rather than address my comment, you prefer to attempt (in vain) to discredit me. Sorry to disappoint you, but I’ve lived in the South my entire life, so I am most definitely not a ‘carpetbagger’. Apparently you are still trapped in a Civil War era mentality as your use of language indicates, which is lamentable.

    Feel free to ignore me, though, since you can’t seem to cope with someone who smashes your half-witted comments with logic and reason. Although I will miss all that southern piss and vinegar you have been splashing all over this thread.

  43. 43.

    Mike

    August 19, 2005 at 10:31 am

    “Jim Allen Says:

    Apparently, Mike, you have a woeful ignorance of what the role of the Federal legislative branch is. It’s not the role of the US House of Representatives and the US Senate to pass laws that apply just to particular regions. Try again when you catch up a bit.”

    Unfortunately I know that. I just sometimes wish it wasn’t so.

  44. 44.

    Mike

    August 19, 2005 at 10:39 am

    John S. Says:
    “Wow. That’s a new land speed record for zero to ad-hominem. Rather than address my comment, you prefer to attempt (in vain) to discredit me.”

    I did address your comment, in fact, I agreed with you. This region DOES have issues that need to be addressed. Apparently you missed that, not sure why.

    “Sorry to disappoint you, but I’ve lived in the South my entire life, so I am most definitely not a ‘carpetbagger’. ”

    Ah that’s a shame cause you sound like a Liberal. Perhaps you’d be more comfortable living somewhere else? Just a thought. You know how background, stupid and inbred we all are. Clearly you’re too “enlightened” to live among us God-believing neanderthals.

    “Apparently you are still trapped in a Civil War era mentality as your use of language indicates, which is lamentable.”

    I really don’t mind yankees, as long as they live up north and visit from time to time…then go home.

    “Feel free to ignore me, though, since you can’t seem to cope with someone who smashes your half-witted comments with logic and reason. Although I will miss all that southern piss and vinegar you have been splashing all over this thread.”

    Okay, thanks.

  45. 45.

    Jim Allen

    August 19, 2005 at 11:55 am

    Mike says: “I just sometimes wish it wasn’t so.”

    OK, on that we can agree (although for entirely different reasons, I bet!).

  46. 46.

    John S.

    August 19, 2005 at 12:24 pm

    Ah that’s a shame cause you sound like a Liberal. Perhaps you’d be more comfortable living somewhere else? Just a thought. You know how background, stupid and inbred we all are. Clearly you’re too “enlightened” to live among us God-believing neanderthals.

    So according to you Mike, only conservatives can live in the South? What a foolish notion. You seem to be the only one not comfortable with those that live around you, so perhaps you should move. And I don’t know where you get this notion that I am ‘enlightened’ and you are a ‘neanderthal’…perhaps that chip in your shoulder has gone a little too deep.

    I really don’t mind yankees, as long as they live up north and visit from time to time…then go home.

    Yup. You are definitely trapped in the Civil War.

    Newsflash: It is 2005. The war is over. The South shall never rise again.

  47. 47.

    MisterPundit

    August 19, 2005 at 12:42 pm

    Theater, eh MisterPundit? You want some theater? Well, let’s see. How about that that little “Top Gun” stunt back in May of 03? Remember MisterPundit?

    Try not to get whiplash in your headlong rush to miss the point. LOL! What a tosser.

    PS : You forgot about the thanksgiving Turkey.

  48. 48.

    Dior

    August 19, 2005 at 1:09 pm

    Bush never could have met with Cindy. What could he say to her? They have nothing in common but the war and he can’t admit that he has screwed every move in Iraq from day one when our own soldiers got lost, to today when boys and girls are dying for a non-existant constitution.
    What would he say? Hey sorry your kid bought it so I can keep lying and get more tax cuts in. Cindy shows that honesty and integrity will still out shine deciet and evil.

  49. 49.

    Mason

    August 19, 2005 at 2:38 pm

    Dior,

    Bush did meet with Sheehan. She wants a second meeting, more than some heads-of-state get.

  50. 50.

    John S.

    August 19, 2005 at 3:26 pm

    Bush did meet with Sheehan. She wants a second meeting, more than some heads-of-state get.

    Bush did not meet privately with Sheehan. She was part of a group that made a nice photo-op to show that Bush ‘cares’ about those that have suffered a loss from his futile war. And unlike foreign heads of state, Sheehan is an American taxpayer. That means she pays Bush’s salary. He works for her, not foreign heads of state.

    But thanks for the irrelevant tangent.

  51. 51.

    Mason

    August 19, 2005 at 4:16 pm

    Irrelevant tangent? John S., you are lying, probably willfully, and generally acting like a jackass.

    According to Sheehan’s hometown paper:

    http://thereporter.com/search/ci_2923921/

    The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey’s sacrifice would make the world a safer place.

    But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act. In addition, Pat noted that Bush wasn’t stumping for votes or trying to gain a political edge for the upcoming election.

    “We have a lot of respect for the office of the president, and I have a new respect for him because he was sincere and he didn’t have to take the time to meet with us,” Pat said.

    Funny, that. Casey’s dad noting Bush wasn’t using the meeting as a political opportunity. Sheehan also had all the opportunity in the world to ask or say whatever she wanted to Bush.

    And then there was this article to which John linked a few days ago…

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8941525/site/newsweek/page/2/print/1/displaymode/1098/

    The families and loved ones of 33 soldiers killed in Iraq or Afghanistan were summoned to a large waiting area at Fort Bragg, N.C. For three hours, they were rotated through five private rooms, where they met with President George W. Bush, accompanied by two Secret Service men and a photographer.

    John S, you moved the goalposts from “Bush never could have met with Cindy” to “Bush did not meet privately with Sheehan”. While the newsweek article isn’t talking about Sheehan’s meeting, it is indicative of how they happen in general, no? Additionally, the article states:

    Privately, Bush has met with about 900 family members of some 270 soldiers killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. The conversations are closed to the press, and Bush does not like to talk about what goes on in these grieving sessions

    Closed to the press? Sort of squares with what Casey’s father said, which appears — at least, to silly irrelevant tangential old me — to disagree with your assertion that “[Sheehan] was part of a group that made a nice photo-op to show that Bush ‘cares’ about those that have suffered a loss.”

    Now, I consider myself fairly well versed in current events, politics, and the like, but that Newsweek article was news to me. I had no idea Bush met with so many family members. What kind of idiot is in charge of their photo-op operation, anyway?

    Finally, I thank you for informing me that taxes collected from American taxpayers fund Bush’s salary. Why, I had no idea. I suppose, using your logic, all 300,000,000 residents of the United States (subtracting folks who don’t, for whatever reason, pay taxes) are entitled to private meetings with the President? When do I get my meeting?!

  52. 52.

    ppGaz

    August 19, 2005 at 4:58 pm

    I, for one, am disappointed that Ms. Sheehan will not be able to keep up her vigil throughout the entire 15-year period of Bush’s vacation — or whatever it is.

    Mainly because I wanted to see how far and how long John could go, walking the not-very-tight-rope strung between pimping the story as a nod to blogratings, readership, and churn, on the one hand, and having the break down and have an actual meaningful disucssion about the real story, which is the war, on the other.

    The tension over this Ballon Juice high wire act was, um, not palpable, so it is, um, anti-anti-climactic to see it come to an end.

  53. 53.

    jg

    August 19, 2005 at 5:07 pm

    ‘I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I think if we were going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force because I do not believe he would wait in the Presidential Palace for us to arrive. I think we’d have had to hunt him down. And once we’d done that and we’d gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government, then we’d have had to put another government in its place.

    What kind of government? Should it be a Sunni government or Shi’i government or a Kurdish government or Ba’athist regime? Or maybe we want to bring in some of the Islamic fundamentalists? How long would we have had to stay in Baghdad to keep that government in place? What would happen to the government once U.S. forces withdrew? How many casualties should the United States accept in that effort to try to create clarity and stability in a situation that is inherently unstable?

    I think it is vitally important for a President to know when to use military force. I think it is also very important for him to know when not to commit U.S. military force. And it’s my view that the President got it right both times, that it would have been a mistake for us to get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq.’
    Cheney 4/29/91

  54. 54.

    John S.

    August 19, 2005 at 7:57 pm

    John S., you are lying, probably willfully, and generally acting like a jackass.

    Careful, Mason. If you fall from that lofty precipice you have placed yourself on, you are liable to break your neck.

    where they met with President George W. Bush, accompanied by two Secret Service men and a photographer.

    The meeting wasn’t a photo-op, but they brought the photographer along? Yeah.

    Why, I had no idea. I suppose, using your logic, all 300,000,000 residents of the United States (subtracting folks who don’t, for whatever reason, pay taxes) are entitled to private meetings with the President? When do I get my meeting?!

    Wow, you almost sound like someone who supports a monarch or perhaps a benevolent despot. Of course every citizen has the right to meet with their leaders – whether they get to do so is another issue entirely. Your insinuation (and crude mockery of its antithesis) that for the peasants to have access to King George is preposterous only indicates how minimal your understanding of American government truly is.

    Where have you developed such anti-democratic notions, anyway?

  55. 55.

    DougJ

    August 19, 2005 at 11:52 pm

    “Whatever they want to do to the liberals in New England I couldn’t care less about.”

    It would be better if New England and New York and the rest just seceded and joined Canda. Rush says they’re a drag on the economy, they have higher rates of poverty and are big sinks as far as federal spending goes. Middle America would be quite propesperous without the drag of New York and New England and California on the economy. I say let them leave the union.

  56. 56.

    John S.

    August 20, 2005 at 12:13 am

    Middle America would be quite propesperous without the drag of New York and New England and California on the economy.

    Milk started shooting out of nostrils when I read this, because it is so ridiculously funny.

    Then I saw this chart that shows how Middle America sucks up far more federal dollars than it pays in, while New England pays far more in federal dollars then they get back.

    And I laughed again.

  57. 57.

    Far North

    August 20, 2005 at 1:35 am

    So, MisterPundit, I guess I missed it. What was the point? Something about theatre, right?

  58. 58.

    Jim Caputo

    August 20, 2005 at 2:07 am

    What amuses me is that those bandying about charges of desecration sure have tin ears when the right complains about representations of the Virgin Mary splattered with fecal matter, or the cross submerged in urine. Goose/gander kind of thing.

    The Virgin Mary thing you’re talking about was a piece of work created by someone. It belonged to him. So while others have every right to object to it, none of them have a right to destroy it. So I don’t see it as goose/gander, more like apple/orange.

  59. 59.

    ppGaz

    August 20, 2005 at 9:26 am

    Bush did meet with Sheehan. She wants a second meeting, more than some heads-of-state get.

    I think you meant “more than some heads of state want.”

  60. 60.

    DougJ

    August 20, 2005 at 11:14 am

    I find it ironic that the left so welcomes the depiction of the Virgin Mary with fecal matter but is so quick to laugh when She appears to someone on a road, or in a puddle, or on a tortilla. It’s a typical double standard.

  61. 61.

    JayCagey

    August 21, 2005 at 5:19 pm

    John S:

    Since the meetings with the families are closed to the press, it’s obvious that the photographer was not a press photographer (which are used for photo-ops) but a staff photographer. They are the ones who take photos that will be given to the family members as a memento of their meeting. These photos will never be published unless one of the recipients chooses to do so. It’s fairly standard procedure.

    I like your tax chart. Unfortunately it doesn’t break out corporate from private tax receipts which is usually what shoves the high-population states to the top of the list. Well, that and the fact that cost of living is generally higher in densely populated areas so the corresponding wages (and resulting income taxes) are also higher. Here in Salt Lake City, someone who makes $50,000 would have to make $75,000 in New York City to maintain the same standard of living. And if you assume owning a home (which is common here) as opposed to renting, the number jumps to $134,000. Which would pay out a hell of a lot more in income taxes.

    Also, rural areas will always have a higher per-capita expenditure for equivalent services – it’s a matter of economies of scale. The political orientation of the inhabitants has little, if anything, to do with it. Sorry.

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