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You are here: Home / Politics / Indictments Coming?

Indictments Coming?

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So sayeth the Washington Note:

An uber-insider source has just reported the following to TWN (since confirmed by another independent source):

1. 1-5 indictments are being issued. The source feels that it will be towards the higher end.
2. The targets of indictment have already received their letters.

3. The indictments will be sealed indictments and “filed” tomorrow.

4. A press conference is being scheduled for Thursday.

The shoe is dropping.

Interesting. Should be a wild one tomorrow, any way this turns out. Make your predictions in the comments.

A fire breathing whisper singed my ear, but there’s no one to be seen
Coming out my rear view mirror is ol’ sly Satan’s limousine
You sell your soul to the devil he’ll give you everything you see
But when the devil comes collecting you gonna be paying for eternity

–Devil’s Chasing Me by the Reverend Horton Heat.

The only thing I predict for sure is Libby is involved and the 1982 Intelligence Act won’t even come into play. I also predict that despite all the idiotic rumblings in certain quarters about treason, there will be no charges of treason handed down. Or anything even remotely close.

Jeff has more.

Reader Interactions

132Comments

  3. 3.

    Thomas

    Come on, everybody knows Libby. That’s easy. In the post-Plamegate world, there is no shame in talking out your ass.

    For instance: Libby, Hadley (no idea why but his name is always there), and Rove get nailed for perjury and obstruction. Cheney is ratted out by Libby as the instigator of the leak and of the cover-up, and charged with conspiracy of some sort. Bush gets named as the unindicted coconispirator, more out of pity than anything else, since the grand jury can’t believe the man was that clueless not to figure out what was going on beneath his nose.

  4. 4.

    jg

    I also predict that despite all the idiotic rumblings in certain quarters about treason, there will be no charges of treason handed down. Or anything even remotely close.

    I feel the act of outing a CIA agent at wartime to be treasonous but I agree no one will be charged as such.

  6. 6.

    ppGaz

    KevinDrum:

    66% of U.S. adults now say President Bush is doing a “poor” or “only fair” job of handling Iraq; 61% say they aren’t confident U.S. policies in Iraq will be successful; and 44% believe the situation for U.S. troops in Iraq is getting worse (compared to only 19% who think it’s improving).

    At least the Fitzgerald indictments are coming at a time when the White House is riding a wave of support and approval. They’ll soon put this unpleasantness behind them.

  9. 9.

    Steve

    Of course it’s not treason. Treason is like something Dick Durbin does, or what Margaret Cho names her dog. Definitely not something pro-war Republicans could ever engage in.

  10. 10.

    UncleHorns

    Rove & Libby FRY! (Well…at least perjury & obstruction)

    Cheney- If he was under oath, then indicted on Perjury.
    CUE…..FAUX Micro Cardial Infarction

    Bush – Unindicted co-conspirator

  12. 12.

    Horshu

    What do you make of the indictments being sealed? Do you think the investigation ends at these indictments, or would the sealing of said indictments indicate that a new GJ could be impaneled to check into the Italy-Hadley connection? Also, if the indictments are sealed, would the indicted parties still resign as previously rumored? It would be easy to deduce who was indicted based on resignations, but what if they don’t?

  13. 13.

    ppGaz

    The sealed indictments will specify charges, but not evidence.

    That’s my understanding anyway. If so, this will not effect the resignation situation.

  15. 15.

    Paul L.

    jg Says:

    I see a terror alert in our near future.

    Maybe the Bush Administration will start a war in Bosnia or launch a cruise missle at a aspirin factory the day the main witness testifies.
    Like Bubba did.

  16. 16.

    ppGaz

    Like Bubba did.

    Marked. First appearance of “Clinton did bad stuff” as an apparent defense put up by the lying sack of shit potatoheads here.

    Unless it was tongue in cheek, or DougJ, in which case it was just lame.

  19. 19.

    reBoho

    If there are indictments tomorrow, I guess that we suddenly will find Osama(“he’s not under here”). Bet old Mr. “Go f@ck yourself” will make the announcement.

  20. 20.

    h0mi

    The only thing I predict for sure is Libby is involved and the 1982 Intelligence Act won’t even come into play. I also predict that despite all the idiotic rumblings in certain quarters about treason, there will be no charges of treason handed down

    If there are indictments unrelated to the intel act, but due to a “cover up” as has been speculated, all i can say is “stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid” until they are convicted or acquitted.

  21. 21.

    Tim F

    Before making any conclusions I want to know what’s in the CIA damage assessment. If the assessment is five lines long and the whole thing boils down to a technicality, I don’t feel much other than schadenfreude.

    But if the report shows significant damage to the ability of US intelligence agencies to function, and it very well might, perjury and obstruction of justice are the least that these people deserve. Whatever it takes to put these criminals away is good enough for me.

  23. 23.

    srv

    Well said. I’m going to head down to the Toronado in SF when the indictments are announced. If anyone wants to join, I’ll buy the first round.

  24. 24.

    Paul L.

    ppGaz Says:

    Like Bubba did.

    Marked. First appearance of “Clinton did bad stuff” as an apparent defense put up by the lying sack of shit potatoheads here.

    Unless it was tongue in cheek, or DougJ, in which case it was just lame.

    I was not defending anyone. Jg implied that the Bush Administration would “wag the dog”/issue a terror alert.
    I thought I would tell about a expert in “wagging the dog”.
    My prediction of the indictments – no news until Friday.

  25. 25.

    Ancient Purple

    Well, as long as there is no charge of treason, everything is just hunky-dorey.

    Whew. Glad to know the rule of law is only important for the “really big” crimes.

  26. 26.

    Tim F

    From Jeff’s more:

    Fitzgerald appears to be leaning toward handing out indictments for crimes committed in the course of refuting an objectively dishonest whisper campaign foisted on the nation by Joseph Wilson and likeminded Bush critics in the CIA—and predictably lapped up by a few credulous members of the press—that was meant to weaken the President (by suggesting he took the US to war on false pretenses) and leave him vulnerable in the 2004 elections.

    Thus is summarized the alternative-reality version of the Plame story. In this version a righteous leader stands helpless in the face of a dishonest possee determined to sink its electoral chances – to swift-boat him, as it were – and does what any good leader would do. That is to say, he blows the cover of the swift-boater’s wife. Harp music plays and angels cheer, until an overzealous prosecutor arrives on the scene. Alas for our hero! Done in by his own innocent desire to correct the factual record! Jonah Goldberg sings an aria and the curtain descends, slowly.

    Stirring.

  27. 27.

    Thomas

    SRV,
    On tap Delerium Tremens. A televsion screen with Libby, Rove, and Cheney suddenly surrounded by lawyers…nothing better. Too bad I’m in deepest Brooklyn.

  28. 28.

    SeesThroughIt

    Well said. I’m going to head down to the Toronado in SF when the indictments are announced. If anyone wants to join, I’ll buy the first round.

    I would, but I DJ at Milk every Thursday, so I’ll be busy sucking down Newcastles and playing more Public Enemy than usual. Also, that residency is about all the drunken Haight St. antics I can handle for one week. But still, it’s a fine idea.

  29. 29.

    Tim F

    I thought I would tell about a expert in “wagging the dog”.
    My prediction of the indictments – no news until Friday.

    Another sad hero of modern times, attacked for attacking terrorists, and then attacked for not attacking terrorists enough, then attacked again for attacking the terrorists. To win he would have had to not attack them, then go back in time and really attack them, then go back in time again and not attack them again.

    Now, if I had that sort of power I’d probably just use it to sell my stupid Lucent stock before I thought to buy it.

  30. 30.

    ppGaz

    I’m going to head down to the Toronado in SF when the indictments are announced. If anyone wants to join, I’ll buy the first round.

    Wish I were there in the City by the Bay, I’d join you.

    Alas, I cannot be, but I will lift a glass to all of you the night of the announcements.

  31. 31.

    kl

    “Alas, I cannot be, but I will lift a glass to all of you the night of the announcements.”

    What brand of prune juice?

  33. 33.

    wilson

    Mind-boogling that a prosecutor appointed by Bush may be about to secure indictments against top officials. I doubt if a true special prosecutor (paid by the hour, with a huge staff) would have gotten this far in this little time (compare Cisneros case).

    Knowing the ability of the President to pardon, Fitz can comfortably indict the top folks, certain they will press for trial (or deals) before 2008 (not that far away in litigation time lines).

    I predict Cheney, Bush (unindicted co-conspirator), Libby, Rove. Or a delay and new period for GJ to serve.

    Delay adds to pressure on indictees, who want to have key issues litigated and matters resolved (by trial or plea) before Bush leaves office, yes?

  34. 34.

    rilkefan

    “Prune juice. A warrior’s drink!”

    My check engine light came on this morning, or I’d drive up from Stanford. Will be with you in spirit.

  35. 35.

    Tim F

    On tap Delerium Tremens. A televsion screen with Libby, Rove, and Cheney suddenly surrounded by lawyers

    My bar, conveniently located an easy five minutes’ crawl from the apartment. The night will start with a Nostradamus; ordinarily I’d follow up with a Maredsous but if Cheney gets sucked into this there’s a Rochefort #10 with my name on it. Expensive as hell but worth every ten-spot. If Fitz indicts nobody bigger than Hadley and the fax guy I’ll have a few Leffes and go home.

  36. 36.

    Bruce from Missouri

    I agree that noone will be charged with treason.

    But we all know it was treason. And worst of all, it was treason committed out of personal pique.

  37. 37.

    Perry Como

    It’s beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
    Everywhere you go
    They are looking at five to ten, orange jump suits in the pen
    Indictments causing the talking heads to blow!

    It’s beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
    Traitors on White House floors
    But the prettiest sight to see, is the handcuffs that will be
    On Cheney’s own front door!

  38. 38.

    Tim F

    New bit from Reuters.

    Last line of the story:

    Lefkowitz said Monday was the first time he had been questioned by the FBI in connection with his neighbor. The agents told him they were talking to other neighbors as well.

    Apparently the FBI is investigating whether the neighbors knew about Plame before the article came out. It seems odd that Fitz didn’t do this already.

    This doesn’t seem to me to be a good thing to be doing this late in the game. It looks sloppy, or else like a reaction so some new information. My instinct says that Rove’s lawyers complained that Wilson told his neighbors. If it’s true, then Joe could go down for IIPA-related program activities and go a significant way towards exonerating the leaker. If I’m right then I handicap this play as 99.9% likely to be bogus. Basically, a hail-mary pass by one of the defendants.

  39. 39.

    Slide

    The only thing I predict for sure is Libby is involved and the 1982 Intelligence Act won’t even come into play. I also predict that despite all the idiotic rumblings in certain quarters about treason, there will be no charges of treason handed down

    hmmmm…. don’t be so sure John, the LA Times is reporting that FBI agents are today questioning the Wilson’s neighbors if they knew if Plame was a CIA agent. Hmmm… now why would they be doing that ya think?

    Special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald also dispatched FBI agents to comb the CIA officer’s residential neighborhood in Washington, asking neighbors again whether they were aware — before her name appeared in a syndicated column — that the agent, Valerie Plame, worked for the CIA.

    The questioning, described by lawyers familiar with the case and by the neighbors, occurred as Fitzgerald was thought to be readying indictments in the long-running inquiry into the leak of Plame’s identity.

    Some of the questioning indicated that Fitzgerald may still be considering indictments on charges that some have viewed as too difficult to pursue, including a prosecution under a federal law that makes it a felony to reveal the name of a covert agent.

    Oh, oh.

  40. 40.

    Lee

    indictments tomorrow? have they finally gotten to sandy berger? f’en crook. ray nagin? any la. politician? or schumar? oh, wait, it’s a santimonius witch hunt.

    and congrats to you liberals for the 2,000th military death in iraq. must be a fantastic feeling…. i hear you guys (and the msn) has plenty ‘o special events planned….

  41. 41.

    Slide

    It seems odd that Fitz didn’t do this already.

    This doesn’t seem to me to be a good thing to be doing this late in the game. It looks sloppy, or else like a reaction so some new information.

    This is the SECOND time they are asking neighbors. Not sloppy, very very thorough.

    A neighbor of Valerie Plame has been interviewed by FBI agents for the second time. The agents asked Marc Lefkowitz on Monday night whether he knew about Plame’s work at the CIA before her identity was leaked in a July 2003 column. Lefkowitz told agents he did not, according to his wife, Elise Lefkowitz. …Lefkowitz said this is the second time FBI agents have asked whether the couple was aware of Plame’s CIA work. She said the first interview took place several months ago.

    My only guess is that they are re-canvassing the neighborhood to see if they can find ANYBODY that knew Plame was a CIA agent like the lying CLIFF MAY suggested with no evidence. The ONLY reason I can think for them doing this is if they planned to indict on the original charge of outing a CIA agent. guess we shall see in a day or two.

  42. 42.

    Marcos

    Don’t worry, be happy. Bush will just pardon anyone who’s indicted. He doesn’t have to worry about re-election, and Congress won’t chimpeach. It’s good to be the king.

  43. 43.

    Joey

    and congrats to you liberals for the 2,000th military death in iraq. must be a fantastic feeling…. i hear you guys (and the msn) has plenty ‘o special events planned….

    Oh, didn’t you hear? I’m having a huge party. All the big liberals are going to be there. Moore, Ted Kennedy, Satan. There’s going to be a bbq with plenty of roasted aborted Christian babies for everybody. After that we’re going to go back to plotting how we can further frame every conservative on the planet, especially the one’s in the White House. It’s a big job planting phony documents and spreading lies! Oh, one more thing. FUCK YOU.

  44. 44.

    Slide

    Don’t worry, be happy. Bush will just pardon anyone who’s indicted

    I certainly hope so. That will insure Dems take over the Congress.

  45. 45.

    Tim F

    So one Lefkowitz is saying that it’s his first time while the other is saying that the FBI interviewed them months ago. Wierd.

  46. 46.

    Mike S

    and congrats to you liberals for the 2,000th military death in iraq. must be a fantastic feeling…. i hear you guys (and the msn) has plenty ‘o special events planned

    Lovely. Sometimes I wonder if people like this really exist. But then I remember that Hannity needs willing Bukakke recipients and sad little fucks like this fit the bill.

  48. 48.

    Sojourner

    and congrats to you liberals for the 2,000th military death in iraq. must be a fantastic feeling…. i hear you guys (and the msn) has plenty ‘o special events planned….

    The libs didn’t lie the country into a war. Your guy did that.

    Asshole.

  49. 49.

    Lee

    mikey s…. s’all right… read other dim blogs my man (boy). plenty of celebrating going on. you live in complete denial if you doubt it, “fuck” face. wow, i can cuss too.

  50. 50.

    Vladi G

    It’s knowing that dipshits like Lee are out there that will make the indictments extra sweet.

    And Goldstein, man, what a hack. He’s really sunken into self parody at this point. “They wouldn’t have had to perjure themselves and obstruct justice if Joe Wilson wasn’t such a liar liar pants on fire!” On the plus side, I now know where to go to find some of that “conservative humor” everyone’s been looking for.

  51. 51.

    ppGaz

    LATimes:

    neighbors contacted by The Times said they told the FBI agents that they had no idea of her agency life, and that they knew her only as a mother of twins who worked as an energy consultant.

    The agents “made it clear they were part of the Fitzgerald investigation, and they were basically tying up loose ends,” said David Tillotson, a Washington lawyer and neighbor, who was among those interviewed Monday.

    “They really only had one interest, and that was to know whether Valerie’s identity, on what she did for a living, was known prior to the Novak article. It seemed they were trying to establish clearly that prior to the Novak article she was not widely known on the cocktail circuit,” Tillotson said.

    “And I pointed out, we were good friends, we socialized with them, and we just had no idea” until her status was made public in the Novak column, Tillotson said. “To that moment, we had no idea whatsoever that Valerie did anything for the government.”

    Some people familiar with national security investigations said they found this week’s questioning to be curious at a time when Fitzgerald appeared to be wrapping up his investigation. They said establishing her covert status should have been a priority at the outset of the case; if her employer was already well known, the prosecutor would not have a case to bring under the agent-protection law.

    But others said they suspected that Fitzgerald was just being meticulous, and that he had previously made a judgment about her status and was, in an abundance of caution, looking to further corroborate that belief. The questioning seemed “confirmatory,” said one person who was interviewed but who declined to be identified. Some neighbors said they had been interviewed previously by the FBI.

    “They basically asked me if I knew what she did prior to the leak,” said Marc Lefkowitz, another neighbor. The answer, he said, was an unambiguous “no.”

    “I knew he was a former ambassador. We had dinner at their house,” Lefkowitz said. “She was just a normal mother of twins.”

    As anticipation swirled in Washington of potential indictments — and what it would mean for a Bush administration already beset by low approval ratings, the Iraq war and an embattled Supreme Court nomination — a related controversy was brewing in Italy over how the Niger allegations made their way into the intelligence stream.

    Italian parliamentary officials announced Tuesday that the head of Italy’s military secret service, the SISMI intelligence agency, would be questioned next month over allegations that his agency gave the disputed documents to the United States and Britain, according to an Associated Press report. A spokeswoman said Nicolo Pollari, the agency director, asked to be questioned after reports this week in Italy’s La Republica newspaper claiming that SISMI sent the CIA and U.S. and British officials information that it knew to be forged.

    The “confusion” over Lefkowitz may very well be that he said that it wasn’t the first time that the neighborhood had been canvassed, but was the first time he had been interviewed.

    This story does not bode well for the “technicality” defense, does it?

    Here’s hoping that the lying c**ksuckers get their comeuppance, to coin a phrase, Big Time.

  52. 52.

    Joey

    mikey s…. s’all right… read other dim blogs my man (boy). plenty of celebrating going on. you live in complete denial if you doubt it, “fuck” face. wow, i can cuss too.

    You are an ass, and an idiot. The fact that you confuse celebrating with “I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO!”‘s is sad. Nobody, I will repeat, NOBODY is happy that 2000 American’s are dead. (Except for the people doing the killing of course. I shouldn’t have to point that out, but one can never make assumptions when dealing with a fucktard.)

  53. 53.

    Sojourner

    read other dim blogs my man (boy). plenty of celebrating going on. you live in complete denial if you doubt it,

    Where?

  54. 54.

    ppGaz

    The fact that you confuse celebrating with “I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO!

    Indeed. The guy probably thinks that when people in a courtroom smile and pump their fists at a guilty verdict, they are celebrating CRIME.

    Uh no, dumbasses, they are celebrating the fact that the bad guy got what he deserved.

    Different. There’s no pleasure in seeing your country ruined by these self-interested poopshooters in the White House, believe me. None at all.

  57. 57.

    Lee

    “we oppose the war but suport the troops”…. i love reading you lemmings… you huddle in one blog, say the same bs crap, believe the same misguided ideas. really sad. try ‘diversity’, um kay? there’s more to life than government jobs, piss ants pantywastes….

  58. 58.

    Andrew J. Lazarus

    i hear you guys (and the msn) has plenty ‘o special events planned

    Yes, indeedee! Candlelight vigils. Breaks the monotony of the funerals with the weeping parents, widow, orphans, all that.

  59. 59.

    Mike

    “kl Says:
    “Alas, I cannot be, but I will lift a glass to all of you the night of the announcements.”

    What brand of prune juice?”

    Kool-aid comes in a prune flavor now?

  61. 61.

    Mike

    “Joey Says:
    Oh, didn’t you hear? I’m having a huge party. All the big liberals are going to be there. Moore, Ted Kennedy, Satan. There’s going to be a bbq with plenty of roasted aborted Christian babies for everybody. After that we’re going to go back to plotting how we can further frame every conservative on the planet, especially the one’s in the White House. It’s a big job planting phony documents and spreading lies! Oh, one more thing. FUCK YOU.”

    Really?
    You tying yourself to the White House also to mark the occasion?

  62. 62.

    Slide

    i love reading you lemmings…

    liberals are lemmings? lol Please, getting liberals to agree on anything is like herding cats. Who walks in lockstep around here? Who are proud to call themselves “ditto heads”? Who is proud to have been “Hannitized”? Lemmings? lol

  63. 63.

    Joey

    Which part of lee’s posts deserves a reply?

    I know, I know. I’m just in one of those moods….

    “we oppose the war but suport the troops”…. i love reading you lemmings… you huddle in one blog, say the same bs crap, believe the same misguided ideas. really sad. try ‘diversity’, um kay? there’s more to life than government jobs, piss ants pantywastes….

    Ummmm… We’re on a conservative, pro-Iraq War blog. I think it’s safe to say that we’re avoiding echo chambers here. And the rest of that comment is just nonsensical. Government jobs? WTF?

  64. 64.

    ppGaz

    we oppose the war but suport the troops”….

    Essentially, the majority American position today.

    If you don’t like America … if you don’t agree with the majority opinion …. get out.

  65. 65.

    Lee

    slide: seriously, the black vote is 90% democrat (and pretty much taken for granted). if a democrat has alternate ideas (ala zell miller), he’s gone. check that, his ideas didn’t change. the party’s did.

  67. 67.

    Tim F

    If he was DougJ I would somehow find a way to be even less interested in taking his bait than I am now.

  68. 68.

    Mike

    “Lee Says:
    slide: seriously, the black vote is 90% democrat (and pretty much taken for granted). if a democrat has alternate ideas (ala zell miller), he’s gone. check that, his ideas didn’t change. the party’s did.”

    Lee haven’t you heard?
    Liberals are all about diversity of thought.
    Except in Universities
    and, umm, newsrooms
    and, umm, in the Congressional Black Congress
    and…oh never mind
    You wanna see how “diverse, open-minded” liberals treat those that once walked lockstep but now think differently?
    Go check this Blog out, it’s a good one to illustrate this quite well.
    neo-neocon.blogspot.com/2005/03/condescension-and-leaving-political.html

  69. 69.

    Slide

    Zel Miller is a democrat with alternate ideas? Yeah, republican ideas. Are you proud to have him in your party now?

    Oh, and about partys changing, Republicans were the party of Lincoln and now by your own admission, blacks vote 90% for Dems. Guess your party changed as well. I would suggest that the Dem party changed for the better if a lunatic like Zel Miller no longer feels comfortable and that the Republican party changed for the worse if blacks no longer feel comfortable calling themselves Republicans. Your point was?

  70. 70.

    ppGaz

    Go check this Blog

    I think the very first comment to the article calls her a liar. Which was rather obvious from the content of the article.

    Neocons are about forcing their policy upon resistance at any cost, by any means. Fuck them, and you if you are one.

    (Spoof alert disclaimer: If you are DougJ, then biting black ants shall infest your groin for eternity).

  71. 71.

    EL

    Libby for perjury and obstruction, possibly conspiracy. Rove for perjury, possibly obstruction. Fleischer for perjury. Probably nothing for Cheney, but if so, perjury.

  72. 72.

    Tractarian

    Mr. Cole, I think it’s time to start having registered accounts on your blog. This DougJ-style snarking is becoming unbearable.

    Lee Says:

    there’s more to life than government jobs, piss ants pantywastes


    RA Says:

    All these panty wastes who say torture is so “barbaric” and “against what we stand for” are hypocrites.

  73. 73.

    Lee

    slide: what the hell are you talking about? “if blacks no longer feel comfortable calling themselves Republicans”? I’m as confused as TimF is about his sexuality. blacks, as a whole were never republicans. until the media wing of you party, the school system, ect starts educating them (blacks–calm down, race baiters), they won’t accept the party of responsibility. maybe someday you gov’t feeders will too.

  76. 76.

    ppGaz

    This DougJ-style snarking is becoming unbearable

    .

    Nah. This is nothin’ compared to a night of dueling with Darrell. You will think you have been transported into a parallel reality.

  78. 78.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    So many ridiculous comments, so little time.

    First I’ll address the Clinton wag the dog comment. Clinton was legitimately attacking targets, yet the Republicans accused him of “wagging the dog”. Later when it was found out that Clinton was legitimately attacking, the Repubs blamed him for backing down? Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

    To further add onto this topic. Raising the terror alert for political reasons is absolutely something this administration would do–though I doubt they would do it here–but they HAVE done and HAVE been caught. Or are you selectively forgetting when none other than Howard motherfuckin Dean called them on it LAST SUMMER after the DNC? WHat did the “liberal” media do? THEY RIPPED HIM A NEW ASSHOLE FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT. Then low and fucking behold a week later we find out that Howard Dean was right! GASP!

    Now as to the “and congrats to you liberals for the 2,000th military death in iraq.”

    Congrats? Congrats to us? Wow, so the president YOU voted into office gets us into an unprovoked war, based on false claims and we are the ones celebrating the deaths? Personally I think we need to stick it out until a Constitution is passed but I hate to break it to you Mr. Dumbass but it is YOU and the people who voted for Bush who are whose hands some of those soldiers blood is on, not people who voted otherwise.

    You know what is truly heartbreaking? That you weren’t one of the 2000. Rot in peices, asshole.

  79. 79.

    Joey

    slide: what the hell are you talking about? “if blacks no longer feel comfortable calling themselves Republicans”? I’m as confused as TimF is about his sexuality. blacks, as a whole were never republicans. until the media wing of you party, the school system, ect starts educating them (blacks—calm down, race baiters), they won’t accept the party of responsibility. maybe someday you gov’t feeders will too.

    Wow, you really are ignorant. I would be willing to place a small bet that every single black person in the country voted for Grant in both elections. Republicans had the black vote up until the 20th century.

  80. 80.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    I also love the fact that you are either for the war, or you are a liberal.

    Once AfuckinGain. The “you’re either with us, or against us” philosophy.

    I feel like smashing my head into a wall, repeatedly.

  81. 81.

    Slide

    lee it is clear you don’t know your history any better than you know grammar or spelling. Not interested in having a dialogue. Enjoy your ignorance.

  83. 83.

    Mike S

    The funny thing about little boys like Lee is that they are invariably little momma’s boys. But they get oh so turned on by war porn. Then they are the toughest people on the planet, until a loud noise chass them under the desk.

    Lee is the perfect example of a professional bukakke recipient. He smiles as Hannity unloads on his upturned face and then trades it around the blogs. He’s too stupid to realise that he is being used for his sheer stupidity and runs blithely along repeating his bullshit over and over.

    By the way Lee, what have you done to “support the troops?”

  84. 84.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    Thanks Joey. As you can probably tell, I have a very short temper.

    I should also probably note that I came to this thread already anger at comments I hear by John McCain. He said “I really hope that people won’t politicize this event (the 2000 mark)”

    Well, well, well. Is this the same McCain who was all for politicizing 9/11? Is this the same McCain who supported Bush after many already KNEW that part of the reason Rove/Bush wanted to goto Iraq when they did was because “a president has a much better chance to be reelected if a fuckin war is going on? Yea it is the same John McCain. I thought so.

  86. 86.

    SeesThroughIt

    Oh, didn’t you hear? I’m having a huge party. All the big liberals are going to be there. Moore, Ted Kennedy, Satan. There’s going to be a bbq with plenty of roasted aborted Christian babies for everybody. After that we’re going to go back to plotting how we can further frame every conservative on the planet, especially the one’s in the White House. It’s a big job planting phony documents and spreading lies!

    You forgot about the grand finale: We’re going to recrucify Jesus and then convert him to Islam. I don’t know about you, but I can’t fucking wait.

  87. 87.

    Joey

    You forgot about the grand finale: We’re going to recrucify Jesus and then convert him to Islam. I don’t know about you, but I can’t fucking wait.

    Shit, you’re right! Is that before or after we contact the spirit of Hitler to possess the body of our next presidential candidate?

  89. 89.

    Joey

    Eh, they’re both extreme authoritarians. And I thought we were Nazis because we favor the elimination of old folks, unborn babies, and other undesirables? But we tend to favor centralized health care too, so we must be Stalin as well… I’m so confused.

  91. 91.

    Lee

    disenfranchised voter… take your anti-anxiety pill. most your lib senators, left media, the beloved UN felt the same about iraq and the war. it’s only now that the fringe/kook wing has thoroughly taken your party that the U.S. is pure evil in the war. I can only pray that SINdy sheehan stays the face of the anti US left. as the internet conveys to the public what she and the rest of the anti war ilk truly stand for, mainstream Americans will call her out. War sux. but men who realize we have a country worth fighting for will do it. and yes, i DO question the patriotism and many, many, many on the left…not all, but many

  92. 92.

    Joey

    The “left” media supported the war, you stupid motherfucker. And we didn’t HAVE to fight this war. So go ahead and question my patriotism. I’m an army brat whose been raised his entire life about how we should have the utmost respect for the military. That’s why I hate to see them killed for lies. Once again, FUCK YOU.

  94. 94.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    Let me start off by stating that I actually agreed with the Iraq War, at first. I believed in what the Administration said and I also believed that we should have never propped up Saddam in the first place. I even spoke badly about the protestors and said they were only protesting because they didn’t like Bush. I later realized this was not the case.

    Once I found out that the Bush Administration lied to get us to goto war I was completely against the war in Iraq. Never, EVER, should the President lie to the population in order to gather support for a war. It is inexcusable.

    Bush and Company knew that the only way to gather enough support to goto war with Iraq would be to claim that Iraq was an imminent threat to us. So they decided to use fake documents, imply falsehoods, and outright lie. Of course this worked in the short run, but as anyone can now see the support for the war has greatly fallen.

    On top of all this, there is irrefutable proof that key figures in the Bush Administration KNEW that Saddam wasn’t even a threat to his neighbors, let alone the US.

    Colin Powell – February 2001

    “[Saddam] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours.”

    Condoleezza Rice – July 2001

    “We are able to keep arms from [Saddam]. His military forces have not been rebuilt.”

    Clearly these two knew that Saddam didn’t have WMD and that he wasn’t a threat. I find it hard to believe that neither Powell, nor Rice expressed these opinions to the other members.

    I just really don’t understand how anyone can actually think that the Administration really believed Saddam had WMD.

    Even my brother-in-law, who is an independent voter and Bush supporter, admits that he thinks the Administration deliberately lied to get us to goto war with Iraq.

    It is about time that the rest of you stopped living in denial.

    They obviously lied to get the needed support for their ideological agenda.

    BTW, I’m a libertarian you fucking moron. Go pound sand up your ass.

  95. 95.

    Mike

    “The Disenfranchised Voter Says:
    Shit, you’re right! Is that before or after we contact the spirit of Hitler to possess the body of our next presidential candidate?
    No, no, no…you have it all wrong.

    THEY have Hitler, WE have Stalin.

    You also have Mao, Che Guevara and Pol Pot to name a few, Hell might as well throw Ho Chi Minh in there as well, he wasn’t exactly the posterboy for tolerance and peace. Quite a list you boys have going there. Quite a legacy the Left has.

  96. 96.

    cfw

    Conspiracy is the most scary charge for the defense here, yes? No need for Fitz to charge perjury against Chaney. Fitz can either allege conspiracy (tied to acts of Libby) or false statement by Chaney to Fitz (no need for oath, if Chaney made a material misstatement to Fitz). Rove may be the hardest to link, except with conspiracy claim. If Chaney resigns, Condi steps up? With Chaney and Rove gone, Bush may lose the will to continue.

    Bush and Chaney do not look like they are having fun any more, though they may have been right in the big picture sense re Iraq. Looking back after 20 years, if Iraq becomes stable, will 2000 deaths look that catastrophic? I doubt it.

    Iraq, after all, has what, 40% of the population in the middle east? Stability there tends to keep Iran in line. Stability in Iraq (a big if, but less big than 12 mos ago) also takes away a large threat to Saudi A. Geopolitically, 20 years from now, historians may say Bush pulled off a coup,yes?

  97. 97.

    Joey

    Funny you should mention that, Mike. You see, all of those people were actually authoritarians, just like Neo-Cons. While they were left, left and right technically only refer to economic beliefs. Most dems are left and libertarian, so the only thing we have in common with those people are social security. Neo-Cons still get the mass murdering, no civil liberties side.

  98. 98.

    Ancient Purple

    i DO question the patriotism and many, many, many on the left…not all, but many

    Welcome to Balloon Juice, Sen. McCarthy.

  100. 100.

    Joey

    Oh, I don’t mean the libertarian party. I mean libertarian beliefs. Legal homosexual marriages, legal abortion and the like. The whole, if it doesn’t hurt us, then it should be legal thing. Most of those beliefs are typically associated with the dems.

  103. 103.

    Joey

    I know, I was generalizing, in a big way. I wasn’t focusing on economics either, where there is obviously a big difference in beliefs. Libertarians are conservative in terms of economics. However, most dems I know (myself included), also favor ending the war on drugs and drug prohibition and free speech, etc. Obviously, when there are only two major parties, one party isn’t going to perfectly match a person. I was just pointing out that, in terms of everything other than economics, the people he mentioned have far more in common with Neo-cons than liberals and democrats.

  104. 104.

    Mike

    “Joey Says:
    Funny you should mention that, Mike. You see, all of those people were actually authoritarians, just like Neo-Cons. While they were left, left and right technically only refer to economic beliefs. Most dems are left and libertarian, so the only thing we have in common with those people are social security. Neo-Cons still get the mass murdering, no civil liberties side.”

    Spin it however you want, but I tend to doubt you’ll see many Neo-Cons sporting teeshirts of mass murderers or spouting marxist-leninist rhetoric on campus. Most mass murderers in the 20th century were leftists. Most of the folks that you hear bashing the US are also leftists. Period. That’s your legacy boy, not mine. Those are the folks voting for your candidates, not mine. And only an idiot would call Neo-Cons mass murderers by the way. The same fuckups that yell “Bushitler” and crap like that. You know, leftists…

  106. 106.

    Joey

    I didn’t call neo-cons mass murders, I said that’s the same side of the political spectrum they are on, authoritarian. And left refers to economics. Authoritarianism is independent of economic beliefs. And authoritarianism is the side that neo-cons land on, which is the same side as all the people you mentioned. Dems fall on the libertarian side of most arguments. Am I the only one who has been to politicalcompass.org? And, one last time, the marxist/leninist rhetoric is ECONOMICS.

  108. 108.

    DougJ

    Most mass murderers in the 20th century were leftists.

    You can’t be serious here. To lump Hitler in with the American right or Stalin in with the American left is just plain stupid. You must be a spoofer.

  109. 109.

    W.B. Reeves

    Evidently Lee hasn’t an original thought in his head. Nor does he appear to possess the elementary integrity to be embarassed for being utterly wrong about the long history of African American support for the GOP. They were a solid Republican constituency up until FDR.

  110. 110.

    Joey

    You can’t be serious here. To lump Hitler in with the American right or Stalin in with the American left is just plain stupid. You must be a spoofer.

    Exactly. Our extremists (at least the ones elected) still don’t come close to any of those, economically or on a civil liberty scale.

  111. 111.

    W.B. Reeves

    You also have Mao, Che Guevara and Pol Pot to name a few, Hell might as well throw Ho Chi Minh in there as well, he wasn’t exactly the posterboy for tolerance and peace.

    It’s clear from the above that Mike knows next to nothing about the individuals that he names. Apparently, that they were all avowed Communists makes them interchangeble in his eyes. Likewise, since Communists are usually placed “on the Left” for purposes of analysis, he feels free to lump Liberals and likely anyone to the “Left” of the GOP into the same bag. The facts be damned.

    Welcome to the worldview of the Right Wing “dead enders.”

  113. 113.

    kl

    My bar, conveniently located an easy five minutes’ crawl from the apartment. The night will start with a Nostradamus; ordinarily I’d follow up with a Maredsous but if Cheney gets sucked into this there’s a Rochefort #10 with my name on it. Expensive as hell but worth every ten-spot. If Fitz indicts nobody bigger than Hadley and the fax guy I’ll have a few Leffes and go home.

    Wow, a seething lefty AND a beer nerd? The ladies must be on you like wrinkles on Sarandon.

  114. 114.

    Paul L.

    Another sad hero of modern times, attacked for attacking terrorists, and then attacked for not attacking terrorists enough, then attacked again for attacking the terrorists. To win he would have had to not attack them, then go back in time and really attack them, then go back in time again and not attack them again.

    You know I could say the same thing about George W. Bush and the criticisms from the left.
    However, Bosnia had nothing to do with attacking terrorists.
    The only time Bill attacked terrorists was one cruise missile on the day that Monica testified.

  115. 115.

    Tim F

    Wow, a seething lefty AND a beer nerd? The ladies must be on you like wrinkles on Sarandon.

    Pretty much. Sarcastic mongoloids like yourself drive them right to me.

  116. 116.

    Krista

    Mmm…Leffe.

    Lee and RA are the same person, methinks. They both misspelled “pantywaist” as “pantywaste”. It’s not airtight evidence, but it’s enough to make one pause.

    And Mike, I really fail to see how criticizing one’s government for starting a war based on falsehoods somehow equates bashing the entire country. From the comments that I’ve read since I started posting here, most of these “lefties” fiercely love their country, for it’s diversity, freedom, equality and opportunity. And right now, they are royally, royally pissed off that their government has 1) damaged their country’s reputation with the rest of the world, 2) gotten almost 2,000 of the country’s young men and women killed in a useless, unwinnable war, 3) created an atmosphere where anybody who does criticize the government is viewed as anti-American, 4) implemented policies that have allowed the very rich to keep getting richer, while the middle-class, working-class, and poor just keep getting poorer. Those are just the few that I can think of right now (I’m not yet caffeinated, so the though processes have slowed somewhat.)

    Of course, that’s all just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

  117. 117.

    Krista

    And I think beer nerds are hot. I’d much rather be with a man who knows his beer and has diverse, interesting tastes, than one who prefers a generic, watery brew.

  118. 118.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    And Mike, I really fail to see how criticizing one’s government for starting a war based on falsehoods somehow equates bashing the entire country. From the comments that I’ve read since I started posting here, most of these “lefties” fiercely love their country, for it’s diversity, freedom, equality and opportunity. And right now, they are royally, royally pissed off that their government has 1) damaged their country’s reputation with the rest of the world, 2) gotten almost 2,000 of the country’s young men and women killed in a useless, unwinnable war, 3) created an atmosphere where anybody who does criticize the government is viewed as anti-American, 4) implemented policies that have allowed the very rich to keep getting richer, while the middle-class, working-class, and poor just keep getting poorer. Those are just the few that I can think of right now (I’m not yet caffeinated, so the though processes have slowed somewhat.)

    Hear, f’in hear!

    Krista deserves a medal for that speech.

  119. 119.

    Mike

    Don’t have the time or desire to refute some of the comments, nor do I particularly care enough to, but here’s something to leave you with. An editorial from that avowed Neo-Con/Conservative/Bush supporter/Warmonger/Right-Winger/Kool-aid Drinker Richard Cohen in the Convervative Rag known as the Washington Post:

    Both JFK and FDR were Democrats, of course, and the party has always been associated with internationalism. Somehow, though, that moralism — that urge to do good abroad — has drifted over to the GOP. It is Republicans, particularly neocons, who talk the language of moralism in foreign policy and who, weapons of mass destruction aside, wanted to take out Saddam Hussein because he was a beast. It mattered to them that he killed and tortured his own people. It says something about the Democratic left that it cheered Michael Moore’s infantile “Fahrenheit 9/11” even though the film made no mention of Hussein’s depredations, not even his gassing of Kurdish villages.

    It is probably no accident that so many Middle East hands supported the war. They had seen enough to be appalled and to think, probably incorrectly, that ridding the region of Hussein would be beneficial. The supposed afterthought about democracy — the apparent fallback position once weapons of mass destruction were proved not to exist — was in fact the priority for many neocons. As Paul Wolfowitz admitted to Vanity Fair in 2003, weapons of mass destruction were just one reason to go into Iraq. Democracy and human rights were not only others but possibly more important.

    In 1984, to my consternation, I heard the New Deal theme song “Happy Days Are Here Again” played at the Republican National Convention in Dallas. That swiping of a political icon — Ronald Reagan had earlier borrowed FDR’s “rendezvous” phrase for his speech praising Barry Goldwater — has been followed by a more serious one: the theft of altruism. It is now Republicans, at least neocons, who often speak most forcefully about right and wrong in the world. Just as Scowcroft is doing, it is the Democrats who often speak the cold language of realism that sometimes seems downright uncaring.

    Bush’s soggy religiosity clearly should not be the basis of a foreign policy. But neither should a cold refusal to recognize the role that morality can play. The trick for the Democrats is to strike a balance, to honor their party’s tradition of internationalism and appeal to the American desire to whack the bad guys. America — as it ultimately did

  120. 120.

    Sojourner

    It mattered to them that he killed and tortured his own people.

    Um, a lot of the pro-war types were in public office while Hussein was doing the bulk of his mass slaughter and had friend of US status.

    So, quite simply, my response is bull shit.

    This is a power trip for the neo-cons. They want to impose their beliefs on other countries. Just a variation of the fundies who want to turn us all into their version of a good Christian.

  121. 121.

    Inspector Callahan

    Sojourner, you can believe that nefarious conspiracy bullshit all you want. That’s just a simplistic answer that fits your anger at today’s world.

    I’m not in power. I sit at a desk all day fixing a database and fielding calls. I’ve never run for office, nor do I aspire to. I’m a lapsed Catholic – I go to church on Christmas Eve only, because it’s a tradition.

    However, it DOES matter to me that Hussein killed and tortured his own people. I agree with neocons that our way IS the best way on the planet, that appeasing terrorists invites more terrorism, that getting rid of bad guys is a GOOD thing. I believe that Iraq was a low-hanging fruit, and since it’s wedged in the middle of all these questionable countries (Syria, SA, Iran), it’s a good base for the U.S. to shake up the region.

    So how are you going to pigeon-hole me? It can’t be that I’m on a power trip for the above reasons. Am I stupid? Am I a sheep? I’d be glad to hear what you have to say on this.

    Keep in mind that there are many of us who agree with the administration’s attempts to stop terrorism. In whatever category you place me in, you’re placing ALL of us.

    TV (Harry)

  122. 122.

    Sojourner

    Which nefarious conspiracy bullshit?

    That the American public was misled into this war? Damn straight we were. Whether it was through lies or incompetence remains to be seen. The American people weren’t sold on Iraqi democracy. They were sold on WMD.

    If the neo-con argument was the right one, WHY WASN’T IT USED TO SELL THE WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE?? The American people had the right to decide if that was sufficient reason to invade. It did not happen. Maybe it was okay with you but the polls are showing that it’s not okay with the majority of us.

  123. 123.

    kl

    Pretty much. Sarcastic mongoloids like yourself drive them right to me.

    I am sincere in my appreciation of your personality, Tim.

  124. 124.

    kl

    And I think beer nerds are hot.

    I think we’ve made a love connection right here at Balloon Juice, folks!

  125. 125.

    Bruce Moomaw

    For the record, my children, there is absolutely no contradiction between being supporting a war and being furiously opposed to one particular stupidly chosen battle in that war (in this case, the Iraq “War”, which is only one particularly stupidly chosen — and dishonestly sold — battle in the absolutely necessary worldwide War Against Megaterrorism). As far as I’m concerned, the strongest argument by far against the Iraq War — and the con job the Bushites pulled to get us into it because of their stupid overconfidence that it would be a “cakewalk” — is that it’s a red herring that’s bleeding off the military strength we desperately need to cope with the threat of nuclear proliferation elsewhere, and the nuclear terrorism it makes possible.

  126. 126.

    Shygetz

    As far as I’m concerned, the fact that we are in Iraq as opposed to North Korea is a particularly damning statement. Ruthless dictator? Check. Repressive regime? Check. Slaughters own people? Check. Weapons of mass distruction? N. Korea’s got ’em, Iraq doesn’t. Why do Republicans love Kim Jong Il?

  127. 127.

    Krista

    kl – sorry to burst your matchmaking bubble. I’m already taken.

    And yes, he’s a beer nerd…particularly partial to Kilkenny and Stella Artois. I enjoy Boddington’s, myself.

    is that it’s a red herring that’s bleeding off the military strength we desperately need to cope with the threat of nuclear proliferation elsewhere, and the nuclear terrorism it makes possible

    .

    Not to mention the fact that it would be kind of nice if your troops were actually home, working on beefing up defenses in their own country. The shortage of troops is a well-known fact, and it gives the impression that your leaders have gone chasing after a potential burglar while leaving the door to the house wide open.

  129. 129.

    Mike

    “Shygetz Says:
    N. Korea’s got ‘em, Iraq doesn’t. Why do Republicans love Kim Jong Il?

    They don’t but due to the failed appeasement policy of Clinton and his Sec. of State, Aunt Bee, another psycho in the world, namely Kim Jong Il has them, and he’s not afraid to use them to take the entire Korean penisula with him. That’s why we don’t attack him. We don’t dare without plunging the world into a nuclear nightmare. This same concern is what got us into Iraq in the first place, the fear (unfounded apparently) that Saddam was trying to join the same club as Kim Jong.

    The real question you should be asking is “Why did Democrats let Kim Jong Il get WMD in the first place?”

  130. 130.

    Bruce Moomaw

    Yep — the fact that Clinton sat on his ass while Kim Jong Il was acquring the Bomb is the most disastrous blunder committed by his administration. (The second is his opposition to a balanced-budget Constitutional amendment — thus giving the Bush Republicans their oppportunity for fiscal insanity — and the third, well, we know about that.)

    Of course, this does nothing to relieve Bush of his own resonsibility for bleeding off our military strength chasing a red herring in Iraq while Iran, North Korea and Pakistan become steadily more menacing, just because he thought the red herring would be a cinch to catch. Or for rigging the intelligence regarding Saddam’s supposed nuclear program, in order to chase said herring.

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