This story could get uglier quick:
The airline passenger shot to death by federal marshals who said he made a bomb threat was agitated even before boarding and later appeared to be desperate to get off the plane, some fellow travelers said.
One passenger said he “absolutely never heard the word ‘bomb’ at all” during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday.
Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane’s aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner. They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot (NYSE:HD) employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according to authorities.
***McAlhany said he “absolutely never heard the word ‘bomb’ at all.”
“The first time I heard the word ‘bomb’ was when I was interviewed by the FBI,” McAlhany said. “They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, ‘What is the B-word?’ And they were like, ‘Bomb.’ I said no. They said, ‘Are you sure?’ And I am.”
Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: “I did not hear him say that he had a bomb.”
Officials say there was no bomb and they found no connection to terrorism.
Uh oh.
Perry Como
The guy was in the middle of a manic episode. You should never yell, “I’m full of aplomb!” on a plane.
Richard Bottoms
Just think, Final Destination 1 could have turned out quite differently. And remember folks, the next time you make a big deal out of going to the bathroom when the seatbelt sign is on things could become tragic.
Blue Neponset
Perry,
Manic Depression is a pretty horrible disease. I can’t imagine you would make a joke like that if you know someone who was bipolar.
Horshu
This is starting to remind of of the England subway “5 in the noggin” incident where it starts twisting over on itself to make one hell of a mess.
ppGaz
Take it down a notch, DougJ. Manic depression is a life threatening illness.
AS for the shooting …. the authorities will announce that the shooters “followed procedures” and that will be the end of it.
But the fact remains that this kind of thing is eminently preventable in most cases. This never needed to happen.
Richard Bottoms
Gosh, remember the days when Randy Weaver was a sympathetic figure, distrust of the government led to the militia movement, and G. Gordon Liddy was advocating shooting Federal Marshals in the head?
Oh wait. A Democrat was president.
Never mind.
DougJ
Ppgaz, I’m really not Perry. You can ask John to check the IPs.
neil
What the hell kind of Republican fascist are you, John? All you need to know is that an air marshal shot someone, and that’s enough to be sure it was a good thing. An air marshal is a Good Guy, therefore whoever he shot is a Bad Guy. And obviously a great victory in the war on terror, not to mention proof that the system is working.
Why do you hate America?
Mike S
The best thing they could do is have a full and totally open investigation. Don’t worry about lawsuits or anything else like that. If the Marshalls made a mistake say so loud and clear while promissing more extencive training to avoid another mistake of this kind.
That would defuse most of the idiots who call all cops bad while easing the fears of the rest of the public.
I’m still hoping that someone credible comes forward and says that the marshals were in the right. I hate to think about how aweful they will feel if they killed an innocent man.
DougJ
Horshu wasn’t banned from this site?
neil
Why not stop to think about how awful the innocent man’s family feels, Mike S?
Manslaughter is a crime, and rightly so.
Perry Como
I’ve known a few people, one who recently (two weeks ago) went off on a manic tear because he stopped taking his meds.
I’m still not DougJ. Being black with a wallet in your hand is life threatening too. So is being Brazillian and in London.
Lines
hey ppgaz, I married a bi-polar (unknown to me at the time). It takes a strong person to live with someone else with the condition, and evidently I’m not strong enough.
But even after my dealings with it, all my research and education, I just don’t quite take Perry/DougJ’s comment all that harshly. I can be pretty sensitive on some things, but I just don’t understand why this one is so touchy right now. We don’t know everything, the situation is one big cluster of f^u magnitude, and its not like its targetting bi-polar specifically. Its just incidental the guy was bi-polar. Its very likely that the person could have had a panic attack or hallucinations and had the same thing happen.
Just sit back and relax, getting irritable at others isn’t helping
Mike S
Give me a fucking break. What makes you think I haven’t been feeling terrible for them from the beginning.
yet another jeff
Is it just me, or did anyone else find it really odd that they listed the NYSE designation for Home Depot in the story?
Cops really don’t like it when people aren’t trained to react correctly when being screamed at. Fail to curb a strong Fight or Flight response and they swarm.
I’m not kidding on this, often times it seems that the situation is one of “better not react in fright to us or we’ll kill you”. Stay calm. Fine, the marshalls are trained to react in X way…but citizens don’t have the proper training in the correct protocol for cowering so what do we do?
Another Jeff
Here’s something i haven’t been able to find in a lot of the online articles: Obviously, people seem to be disputing that he said he had a bomb, but are people also disputing that he ever reached into his bag?
Perry Como
Terrorism is an excuse to further justify authoritarian action and cultivate fear. Change “I’m full of aplomb!”, to a stoner yelling “I have a bong!”, or an innocent guy yelling “I’ve done nothing wrong!”. The social commentary remains.
yet another jeff
Another Jeff, I haven’t seen anyone confirm or deny the reach.
neil
You’re telling us how sorry they should feel for his murderer, that’s what. I’m sure the guy is feeling immense, soulful regret, but so are plenty of people on death row.
Jaybird
Perry, I can’t imagine you’d make a joke like that if you knew anyone who smoked pot or innocent people.
“Innocent of what?”, I ask.
Another Jeff
It’s not just you, i thought that was really weird too.
Don
I had a response typed but but just considering the monday-morning quarterbacking and ppgaz’s demands for crystal-ball level prediction and understanding from the marshalls has me too annoyed to even post it. My heart goes out to the dead man, his surviving family and everyone around this whole situation who have to live with it.
The Disenfranchised Voter
If the man didn’t say he had a bomb, or give any other actual indication that he was a security threat, then this situation will be a repeat of the London indicident this past summer in which an innocent man was murdered by the police.
Anyone who thinks the officers were still justified if the man didn’t give any indication he was a security threat believes in a police state.
Mike S
In other words you are incable of feeling compassion unless it fits your narrow definition of who deserves it. I wonder how you would feel if you killed someone in an auto accident where the fault was your own?
Kevin Drum just posted this from a Orlando Sentinal article.
Don
I say this as a card-carrying member of the ACLU who has given lectures on using the phrase “I do not consent to any search, officer:” I am ashamed to share a planet with you.
ppGaz
No, I think that it’s pretty likely that this entire incident was a manic episode. Having been through a number of them in roughly the same situation that Alpizar’s wife was in, I know the drill very well. Much better than I ever cared to, or would wish on anyone.
I don’t think she handled it very well, but I don’t blame her as much as I blame a mental health care system that is completely dysfunctional, and law enforcement that, despite their (unending and self-serving) protests to the contrary, really doesn’t give a shit. The reason I can be so sure that they don’t is twofold: I’ve worked in the field and I know firsthand, and second, if they gave a shit, they could do a lot better than they currently do. A lot better. The idea that the responder is a helpless victim who can’t help being scared by these scary people and then has no recourse but to kill them … is just hogwash.
Or just change it to “I don’t have a bomb” which could be easily mistaken for ” blah have a bomb.”
Sorry, but based on the facts available so far, this shooting stinks. However, I did say at the outset, we must wait for all the facts, so …. let’s wait.
neil
I wonder how you would feel if you killed someone in an auto accident where the fault was your own?
What the fuck kind of analogy is that? This guy didn’t make any sort of mistake, he pulled out a gun, pointed it at someone’s head and shot him to death.
And if I ever do that to somebody who I had no valid reason to believe was a threat, then I won’t be asking for sympathy.
Mike S
It may surprise you to hear that I have not heard these officers ask for sympathy. However I am willing to freely give mine because I have no reason to believe they acted with malice.
And read my comment one more time Neil. I wondered how you would feel in that situation.
Jorge
I doubt the air marshall woke up that day wanting to kill someone. He might have done his job badly but I can almost guarantee that this person is no villian. However, if there is a cover up then we most certainly have some serious villians here. And what will happen is that the certain anti-establishment types will go crazy denouncing any attempts to keep us safe as being overly draconian while certain overly zealous law and order types will end up defending the cover-up. Fun!
Lines
The coverup is worse than the crime. The immediate rantings of the Bill O’Reilly crowd that this is a justified (can I hear a God Bomb, halleluja!) shooting are the coverup. There is no request for a fair and balanced review of the situation before making a judgement. In their little police state mentalities, any shooting by an official acting in their capacity is to be taken at face value.. Reasonable people wait for the facts to come in. I feel sorry for EVERYONE involved, as many will suffer in the coming days. How many passengers are being stalked by reporters? The wife’s house is being surveyed by hundreds of the parasites. Eventually the truth will come out and everyone will go home and forget about it.
neil
I read your comment, but I didn’t think that the analogy corresponded to the situation. Obviously it’s possible to think of a situation where I killed someone by accident and felt awful about it. But this is a very different situation — the air marshal killed this man intentionally.
I have never intentionally killed an innocent man, so I do not know how I would feel in such a situation.
Remfin
I hope this doesn’t turn out to be a repeat of the London episode (literally, every single thing the police claimed in their version of events was a lie/distortion…well I think they got the guy’s name right)
Of course, our media isn’t helping at all. All the FoxNews commentators kept going on and on about “if you’re 37,000 feet in the air blah blah” as they berate their ACLU/Liberatarian guests from a high horse, when the plane was sitting on a tarmac. It won’t be surprising at all if people get a warped view of what happened and see the police as liars no matter if it actually happened like they claimed
TM Lutas
Since nobody else brought it up, did anybody else think about Al Queda’s nasty habit of using the mentally ill/mentally handicapped as human bombs. Even if they knew he was mentally ill, that is no guarantee that he wasn’t also a bomb carrier and so there’s very likely a shoot order in such circumstances.
What Al Queda does is a war crime with widespread consequences. The investigation will tell us more but it’s at least possible that one of the reasons the guy was shot and killed was a consequence of that sort of war crime.
Then again, the federal air marshall might be a trigger happy ass who deserves jail time. It’s too early to tell.
Steve
I could easily envision a scenario where the guy said he had a bomb out of the hearing of the passengers. Guy freaks out, runs off the plane, air marshals follow and try to restrain him, he’s having an episode and doesn’t want to be restrained so he gets the bright idea to tell them he has a bomb so they’ll back off.
I don’t know if it’s that plausible but I don’t find the theory that they hauled off and shot the guy for no reason very plausible either. I have plenty of liberal credentials, but I’m still giving the air marshal the benefit of the doubt until the facts become more conclusive. And hearing some passengers say that they didn’t hear a bomb threat is not conclusive.
I gave the benefit of the doubt to the London police too and I don’t regret it for a minute. I think it’s a rational default assumption.
ET
Yet another example of why the news media jumps too quickly. They rush end telling a bunch of nothing (the JS clip on C&L http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/12/09.html#a6245) and when the story is all said in done it is nothing (or hardly) like what is was originally. The Air Marshalls should have just had no comment until a review was done.
Blue Neponset
Sorry I assumed you were ignorant about bipolar disorder instead of insensitive.
Jon H
MikeS writes: “I’m still hoping that someone credible comes forward and says that the marshals were in the right. I hate to think about how aweful they will feel if they killed an innocent man.”
Given the frequency of erroneous no-knock plainclothes searches in which innocent people get killed, and the reckless way tasers are being used, I don’t think we can just assume law enforcement people would feel particularly bad about killing an innocent man.
demimondian
Since I don’t say this about Lines very often:
What he said.
As I’ve said before, and said again, on the basis of the evidence that came out first, there’s no reason to criticize the marshalls. We’ll see if any evidence comes out that indicates the other witnesses could reasonably have heard what the guy said from where they were sitting.
Steve S
I agree, this isn’t sounding good. It sounds like the guy had a panic attack and felt he had to get off the plane in a hurry. I’m deeply puzzled why these Marshalls thought he had a bomb.
What was always interesting to me about the Randy Weaver/Ruby Ridge thing…
Is it all happened when George the First was President.
I agree. The Jack Booted Thugs and other accusations made by Liddy and the Republican hacks were pure politics, and we’re unlikely to see the same scrutiny here because it’s not a Democrat in charge.
neil
Steve, to me, the London police gave themselves away by lying too much, too early. It took a few weeks for all the lies to fall away, and by the end, most people who didn’t keep up with all the twists and turns left the situation believing that the police had acted in response to some threat or at least suspicious behavior. Not so.
The proper thing is not to let them get away with it. They killed a man and have no evidence that he was a threat. Now the assumption should be that they acted recklessly until they prove otherwise. They’ve already won a substantial propaganda head-start: the story was first printed with the inaccurate statement that the man was shouting about a bomb.
Jon H
“Since nobody else brought it up, did anybody else think about Al Queda’s nasty habit of using the mentally ill/mentally handicapped as human bombs.
Well, we’d better round them all up and get busy waterboarding them. Any one of them might know about a ticking time bomb scenario.
Incidentally, the idea isn’t original to Al Qaeda. Joseph Conrad’s “The Secret Agent” from about a hundred years ago has an anarchist using his mentally challenged brother-in-law as a bomber who fails and dies in a premature explosion.
Steve S
I don’t think anybody is saying the Marshalls did this purposefully.
It’s more a question of the height of panic that we’ve gotten ourselves into. I call it cowardice.
Lines
Jon H says:
Wow, that needs to be a DougJ post on some other right-wing sites. Thats just too good to let go.
srv
I wonder how you would feel if you killed someone in an auto accident where the fault was your own?
And what will happen is that the certain anti-establishment types will go crazy denouncing any attempts to keep us safe as being overly draconian while certain overly zealous law and order types will end up defending the cover-up.
Turn on just about any old episode of Cops. Watch cops in high speed pursuit of guy with broken taillight or outstanding warrant. Watch guy crash into hapless victims.
Happens every day. We have institutionalized so many forms of life-threatening behavior, and few people ever question it.
CaseyL
I wonder how much of this is a slow process in conditioning us to accept what Bill Maher might call The New Rules:
1) Not reacting with instant obedience to any law enforcement official is instantly punishable by death; and
2) The only reaction by the public, the MSM, and the government will be to praise the shooters for “protecting us from terrorism,” with perhaps some expression of casual regret for the death.
Ah: Life in the Land of the
FreeFearful.Mike S
Frightening. You make it sound like he got up in the morning and thought to himself, “today I get to kill someone.” You don’t even appear to have a thought about the fact that these people are there with the function of protecting us from danger and may have juct completely fucked up in this situation.
I find you to be no different than the fuckwits on the other side of the argument who think there was nothing wrong with what happened even if it is proven to be a major mistake. It’s the exact same black and white mentality and it’s one of the things that is dragging the country down one majoely fucked up path.
DougJ
Is this guy for real?
yet another jeff
I’d guess that since nobody else brought it up, the answer is that nobody else thought of that.
Then again, some people would call the willingness to be a human bomb a mental handicap or illness. Either way, sounds like he’s trying to justify something.
I think a reply should be “Ever notice that some of the treatment of prisoners resembles how we used to treat mentally ill and handicapped people decades ago?”.
neil
You make it sound like he got up in the morning and thought to himself, “today I get to kill someone.”
Rest assured that this is not what I think happened.
You don’t even appear to have a thought about the fact that these people are there with the function of protecting us from danger and may have juct completely fucked up in this situation.
This is exactly what I think happened. He fucked up, and an innocent man is dead because of it. This is where my comment about manslaughter upthread came from.
Now we need to find out whether he fucked up by following orders or whether he fucked up on his own initiative. If he was following orders, then some of the culpability for the killing should extend up the chain of command.
Steve S
Apparently, yes…
http://www.snappingturtle.net/jmc/tmblog/
To those who think DougJ was making shit up… you gotta read this guys blog. It’s even more wingnutterier than Jeff “Sharpton” Goldstein.
ajf
You fucking nuts all need to be shot. ppGaz first.
Perry Como
We are in a war on nouns. These nouns threaten our way of life. It is imperative that we defeat these nouns, no matter the cost.
demimondian
What kind of left-wing Orwell-follower are you? Pretending that a war on language has anything to do with tyranny is unAmerican.
Fell free to report to the nearest O’Reilly Loofah Frat Prank Center for further…clarification of your ideals.
stickler
You mean the Ministry of Love.
Perry Como
Which apparently involves a cage, a bear and a stick. Oh Scooter, you tramp.
Otto Man
Zing!
Anderson
DougJ asks “is this guy for real?”
Not to my knowledge. But it did occur to me that a woman behind a guy, yelling exculpatory info, is a readily duplicated tactic.
Here’s my problem: since when does a guy with a bomb run off a plane? If he’s running onto the plane & you think he has a bomb, okay, maybe then you shoot. But OFF the plane? Isn’t that where you want him to be running?
salvage
I dunno, it seems like the guy went crazy they erred on the side of caution, they have a few seconds to make a choice, if he was reaching into his bag before they shot him that would be a reasonable reaction b-word or not.
What I want to know is why the dead guy wasn’t on his meds, I’m thinking there’s some blame there.
aop
Nobody has any idea what happened yet, and all this idle speculation is, IMO, shameful, especially speculation that errs on the default “we’re living in an Orwellian nightmare world” side. Everyone who’s hearing the clickety-clack of jackboots as a result of this extremely unfortunate incident needs to get a grip already. In the four years since 9/11, we’ve had hundreds of thousands of flights, the shoe bomber, several “crazy person running through the airport” incidents, and this is the first tragedy of its kind in the US. Have the air marshalls been massacreing people en masse and I didn’t get the memo?
Mike S
You’re right. FOX news should be ashamed of itself.
yet another jeff
More people have been killed by terrorist prevention than by actual terrorism. The system is working.
yet another jeff
I mean, more people have been killed on American Soil by terrorism prevention than by Actual Terrorism.
The rest of the world? No solid numbers on that.
Another Jeff
salvage,
that’s why i asked the question above about whether or not anyone has confirmed that the guy was reaching for his bag.
Let’s assume that nobody is able to confirm he said “bomb”. If they asked him to see his hands or freeze or whatever, and he still reached into his bag, it’s still possibly justifiable. (and before anyone jumps, i said “possibly” justifiable, not definitely.)
aop
Why? What are they saying? And why are you watching Fox News?
Another Jeff
That should’ve said reaching INTO his bag.
aop
Right. One mentally ill guy versus 3,000 something.
ppGaz
Why does a guy with a bomb fly from South America to Miami, get off the plane, hang around, reboard the plane, and then get off the plane?
Because that’s what this guy did. A guy hurries to do nothing apparently more threatening than get off a plane and run away, and he gets plugged.
And the authorities instantly label it a “good shoot” and a “validation of the air marshall program.”
You couldn’t make that story up, nobody would believe it.
Steve S
Agreed. Fox News should be ashamed of itself.
That didn’t stop G. Gordon Liddy and the Ministers of Hate back in the early 1990s.
yet another jeff
Sorry..SInCE 9-11
Jesus….
yet another jeff
“the system is working” refers to the measures put into place after 9-11….
aop
Preemptively, I’m always inclined to believe they should be ashamed of themselves, but can someone please explain the repeated Fox News reference?
Steve S
I wondered about that too. I don’t understand what these Marshalls were thinking. Perhaps they saw him running towards a crowd of people?
Maybe they weren’t thinking. again, the culture of fear at work.
aop
But that’s a specious argument, isn’t it? How many other attacks have been averted, possibly by air marshalls, or at least by their presence? Who knows? You may be right, and I’m by no means saying DHS has done a very good job–we’d have to have searches more than 5 to 10 percent of ships entering US harbors for me to think that–but a lot of the comments here seem like the same old default overreactions to a situation that no one has any good info about yet.
jg
They shot him when he reached into his bag. Pre 9/11 they would have wounded him, post 9/11 they put him down hard. And then scare the shit out of everyone else in case he had accomplices. Never mind these are US citizens who just heard ten gunshots in the direction of their only way out of the tiny little tube their in. Now they have guns in their faces.
9/11 changed everything. Al Qaeda got us into war in themiddle east and got us popping caps in each others asses if we make sudden arm movemments.
But we got Saddam so thats good right?
Mike S
I’d say a lot less than the admin claims but a lot more than many people think.
Agreed. But one problem is that eyewitnesses have already disputed the official statememnt by the spokeshole. What kind of knucklehead claims that he said he had a bomb on front of a planeload of people if he hasn’t asked the people, or worse yet ignored what they said.
Steve S
They’re the King of Sensationalism Journalism. Anything that happens, they are immediately leaping to conclusions.
Jon H
aop writes: ” Everyone who’s hearing the clickety-clack of jackboots as a result of this extremely unfortunate incident needs to get a grip already.”
It’s not just this. It’s this in addition to tiny podunk towns putting together clueless SWAT teams that do no-knock military-style raids that get innocent people killed. It’s this in addition to the Bush administration’s belief that a speedy trial is a privilege, not a right. It’s this in addition to people having their IDs checked just for riding a bus through a particular stop, without getting off. It’s this in addition to the increased use of secret National Security Letters.
demimondian
Last week, I knew of a place called MiniLove, but, this week, I know only of the O’LFPS. I am sure that the work doublethink comes into this discussion somewhere.
Jon H
“9/11 changed everything. Al Qaeda got us into war in themiddle east and got us popping caps in each others asses if we make sudden arm movemments.”
Bush said “they hate us for our freedom”, and it appears his anti-terror strategy was to remove our freedom.
Appeaser!
aop
Agreed.
bago
Since when is blowing away anything that moves considered cautious?
yet another jeff
Specious argument? Maybe…but personally I fear overzealous law enforcement more than I fear terrorists and criminals.
Jon H
See, if the passenger had only been armed and able to defend himself, it would have turned out much better.
aop
I take it you’re a black man in a big city. Otherwise this statement is unjustifable statistically.
aop
And then, still probably unjustifiable.
Perry Como
When you are in a South Park cartoon: “”It’s comin’ right for us!”
Anderson
See, if the passenger had only been armed and able to defend himself, it would have turned out much better.
It’s a big Internet–some NRA enthusiast has probably already argued this, in all seriousness.
Krista
It’s a tricky situation, really. One way to prevent it would be to notify airline staff that this person does have a mental illness and is prone to erratic behaviour. But then, you get into the question of infringing on that person’s privacy. And then, as you had mentioned earlier, ppGaz, you could train airline staff to recognize various mental illnesses. But who’s to say that someone with nefarious purposes would not also know those symptoms, and could then imitate them in order to make everybody think, “Oh, he’s not dangerous, he’s just having a manic episode, poor man.”? I know that in the grand scheme of things, the odds of there actually being a hijacker or terrorist aboard the plane are quite low. However, if something horrible DID happen, and it turned out that the Air Marshalls did not deal with it with force because they thought the perpetrator was mentally ill instead of villainous, then the proverbial shit would really hit the fan.
There’s no easy answer, of course.
ppGaz
Well, no offense, but what would be the motive? Suppose this guy were actually a bomber. What would be accomplished by pretending to be manic? Every bomber story I’ve ever seen has the bomber trying to avoid attracting attention. It makes no sense.
But on another note …. I will not live in fear of terrorists. I won’t arrange the world to be terror-afraid first, and humane, or just, or diligent about the well being of people second or third. Screw that. I won’t be so afraid of terrorists that I need a Patriot Act to throw away my liberties, and a loony president to throw away the rest of my country, and trigger-happy gunslingers roaming around itchin’ to protect me. That’s not the way it has to be. And I detest the politicians for trying to prey on fears to increase their power and fuck over our liberties in the bargain.
yet another jeff
Unjustified statistically? Well, that settles that…
I made a C in statistics, forgive me for being statistically unjustified in fearing overzealous law enforcement than a terrorist attack. What exactly are the statistics that prove that I’m more in danger of terrorists?
Or does my right to be freaked out by a cop end with his right to unload a clip into me? We’re supposed to be afraid of terrorists only, not a good or bad split second decision by someone that is assigned to protect.
Krista
Good point. It was just a thought. I do agree with you that scenes like this could/should have been avoided. The question is: how?
Mike S
Amen! I travel frequently and have not fallen for the “Be afraid, be very afraid” talk made by people who make their living off of scaring people.
not 'murikan
memo to self: never visit the states again..
aop
You have every right to be freaked out about whatever you want, but no good reason to be more scared of law enforcement than you are by terrorists and criminals, as you wrote earlier. If all we’re talking about is terrorists, I might go along with you. Saying you’re more afraid of the police than criminals, unless, maybe, you’re a young black male living in an urban area, however, smacks of the worst kind of right-on college liberalism. Come down to where I live in LA and tell me you’re more afraid of the cops than the locals.
Richard Bottoms
>I take it you’re a black man in a big city. Otherwise this >statement is unjustifable statistically.
Well if he isn’t, I am.
Ever hear of Abner Louima, Patrick Dorismond, and Amadu Diallo?
aop
Yes, I have, and if you’d bothered to read upthread, you’d understand that’s exactly my point.
not 'murikan
terrists are such pussies , you should all be affraid of the irak insurgents , those cats got your army on the verge of running.
i lived in paris during a SUSTAINED terrorist bombing campaign and i can tell you for sure the French have way bigger balls than you yanks.
Mike S
Judging from your style of writting I’d say you’re about 7.
Brandon
Don’t you know?
That’s the fed’s fault, as well.
Mr. Alpizar is totally blameless here.
yet another jeff
Nope, not a minority, not in a big city. If it eases your indignation, I AM much more afraid of people stealing my stuff than I am of terrorists.
However, I was speaking of my personal experiences and opinions. I’ll grant that I might have a statistically skewed experience in the world, but ya know…it’s kinda prickish to start with this “that stinks of the worst kind of right-on college liberalism” crap.
Afraid of criminals? Buy a gun. Afraid of cops? Suck it up.
not 'murikan
sure if you like mike s …
bottom line is americans are deadly affraid of a statistically insignificant threat.
to the point where shoot to kill becomes excusable and justifiable in the case of someone reaching in a bag…
yet another jeff
not `murikan, that’s almost a Bukowski poem…
Perry Como
Mr. Alpizar should be arrested posthumously for commiting a terroristic act.
aop
Look, you were the one that said “terrorists and criminals,” not me. Don’t act like I put words in your mouth.
I mean, clearly that’s your opinion. I’m pointing out that, unless you’re just giving vent to paranoia about a fascist Bush police state, or whatever, there’s not really any basis for a white person in America to feel “more threatened by overzealous law enforcement than terrorists and criminals.” Sorry to come off like a prick.
srv
Let’s see. I can remember zero experiences with criminals with guns (I’ve lived in DFW, Austin, Houston – when it was murder capital, SF). I can remember 5 experiences where cops pulled out their guns and started waving them about in a threatening manner.
I’ve seen cops assault citizens on 4 different occassions, and only one of those was a protest. Protesters had no weapons, and hadn’t touched anyone. They hadn’t even been non-compliant. I’ve seen a cop riot first hand (Mardi Gras, 91, Austin). Cops randomly batoning people in a crowd.
We all understand you live in fear, in a place like LA. Your choice. Your life. Your miserable existence. We’d just do want to have to live like you.
aop
You’d just do want to live like me? How’s that, again? Checking my comments so I don’t look like an illiterate bozo?
P.S. Go fuck yourself
yet another jeff
aop, I didn’t think I was acting like you put anything in my mouth.
I’m just saying that statistics can mean absolutely nothing at times. My experiences are more in line with srv’s post above…and in a few of those same locales…with the additions of some small towns in TX. Hell, I’ve seen cops pull guns on high school kids that ran over orange cones in a parking lot. It’s always seemed that we’re on our own against the criminals…but then I’m not talking about all the people that weren’t beaten by law enforcement or falsly arrested.
Authority is a slippery slope, ya know?
ppGaz
You cannot make him take his meds. On the other hand, you can refuse to board him on an airplane if you are told he is bipolar and off his meds. Some laws would have to change. Right now the laws are skewed in favor of goofy principles of privacy which actually endanger the bipolar.
To get an idea how ridiculous this is, imagine that your 4-year-old had the legal right to make her own medical decisions, and her parents had no rights in the matter. That’s essentially the situation an ill bipolar person is in. Unable to make rational choices, he cannot rely on anyone else to make them for him because the law makes it impossible, until he clearly demonstrates an immediate danger to himself or others. By then, too late.
aop
Yeah, no argument there. And believe me, I’m not saying law enforcement is infallible–clearly not, as in the case we’re discussing. My point is just that, on the whole, I do think the average citizen still has more to fear from, let’s just say criminals–including terrorists, etc.–than law enforcement.
Mike S
It must be easy to live in a black and white world. That world seems to have a majority of dicks as it’s population.
ppGaz
Yes. For example, Cheney is a Dick.
Bob In Pacifica
I feel safer.
Dave_Violence
“Richard Bottoms Says:
Gosh, remember the days when Randy Weaver was a sympathetic figure, distrust of the government led to the militia movement, and G. Gordon Liddy was advocating shooting Federal Marshals in the head?
Oh wait. A Democrat was president.
Never mind.”
Even though it’s apples and oranges, the Reality Check is needed. Thank you.
Pb
aop,
That’s actually a very interesting question, and one that could probably be answered statistically. Considering that I’m *far* more likely to run into a law enforcement officer than a terrorist, I’m not convinced that you’re right. And if the mere threat of terrorism makes a law enforcement officer that much more likely to shoot me, then I’d say that I likely have more to fear from the law enforcement officers.
Then again, I probably have even more to fear from, say, people who can’t drive, or eating too much fast food. Or maybe bears. :)
The Disenfranchised Voter
Nice job, Pb. You got to him before I could.
aop
Yeah, great post, except I was responding to YAJ saying he felt more threatened by cops than “terrorists and criminals.” I mean, yeah, you’re more likely to run into a cop than a terrorist–no shit, sherlock. I wish people would bother to read threads before commenting.
yet another jeff
No, I said I was more afraid of cops than terrorists or criminals.
aop
yet another jeff
Thanks. I correct myself. Key word is overzealous, of course.