Bill Maher went on Larry King Live the other night and showed why he is so much smarter than George Bush:
CALLER: Hi, I was thinking about the situation in Iraq. And as we’re being perceived as imperial invaders, wouldn’t the solution be to have Muslim countries who are also democracies replace the American troops there as the American troops are lightning rods for insurgent attacks?
MAHER: Absolutely. Yes.
KING: Sounds like a good idea.
MAHER: Yes. One of the many good ideas, and you know, again, we’ve been talking about this, this hour that President Bush is now slowly coming around to some ideas that other people have been saying.
But, again, we all paid the price for him learning on the job. And maybe the next time Americans go to vote, they won’t vote for the guy who they want to have a beer with. You can say what you want about Al Gore and John Kerry, they were readers. They read things. They knew things about other countries that he didn’t. Maybe he would have gotten that idea before this caller did.
Hell- it sounds like a fabulous idea. Since Bill Maher is so up on book lurnin’, he can hit the books and tell us exactly which ‘Muslim Democracy’ we should turn to and which one has the 160k troops, the financial ability, and the logistical abilities to ‘replace’ our troops. I don’t know about you, but my list of Muslim democracies is pretty short.
Oh yeah- bonus points if he can provide us with a scenario to get this fictional Muslim Democracy to take over the situation in Iraq.
Shygetz
Turkey is the only Muslim democracy I know of. Bush couldn’t even bribe them into letting us base in Turkey (although diplomacy has never been this administration’s strong point). And they sure couldn’t station enough troops there, and the Kurds hate them. So yeah, dumb idea, although having some participation from other Muslim countries (or other non-American countries) would be nice.
Paddy O'Shea
The caller blabbed something about “Muslim democracies,” and Maher didn’t think it was worth bothering about.
Of course, we all know that the Kennebunkport Einstein’s strategic blundering in this case is so absolute the only country that will eventually find Iraq in their laps is Iran.
And they ain’t no democracy.
Face it, Cole, you’re just all browned off about Maher because he skewers The Idiot Son week in and week out, and to the delight of millions.
Try and look at it this way: Maher hasn’t tapped anyone’s phones, read anyone’s e-mails, opened anyone’s mail, or otherwise shat on the Consitution of the United States like this supposed President has.
Isn’t your anger a little misplaced?
John Cole
That post sounded angry to you, Paddy? And as to the rest of your silliness, nonsense. Maher jumped right in and agreed with her, and thought having muslim democracies replace our troops was a great idea. I saw it on tv. You do’;t know what the hell you are talking about.
Mac Buckets
Plus, where was the off-topic Bush approval poll, Paddy? You’re slipping.
Paddy O'Shea
Look Cole, if you have become so much of a Bush apologist that you can shine off this dirtbag’s gross violations of the basis Constitutional rights of American citizens, then you’re right, you’re not angry or much of anything else.
You’re pitiful.
Paddy O'Shea
Chickenhawk Mac Nuggets:
Glad you asked!
Today’s Rasmussen poll has your wanker dreamdate Steroid Arnie trailing a couple of fairly unknown Democratshere in sunny and warm California.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/California%20Governor.htm
So how’s the weather today in Greenteeth County?
Another Jeff
Bill Maher is complete idiot. I’ve never been able understand how he got so popular.
And before the predictable responses of “oh yeah, how about Rush”, or “what about Hannity” come flying in, i think they’re idiots too.
You’re right, Paddy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but I guess it’s progress that he actually posted something and didn’t include a totally irrelevant link that had nothing to do with what your post was about.
Mac Buckets
Like all comedians who make their living bashing Bush, he would no doubt fall back on the Jon Stewart-Ted Rall “I Don’t Have To Be Factually Correct, I’m Just A Tiny Insignificant Comic” routine to excuse his ignorant vitriol.
Mac Buckets
Phew! For a minute there, I thought you were going to ruin your perfect record of being wrong about every single thing you’ve ever said, written, or thought! Glad to see you’re still the ’72 Dolphins!
Paddy O'Shea
C’mon, most of the self-righteous reactionary nitwits posting on these threads are so boring it is an act of mercy to change the subject.
Shygetz
So what’s Bush’s (and friends) excuse for their ignorant vitriol? “I’m just a simple man of faith from Texas”?
Shygetz
blockquote>Phew! For a minute there, I thought you were going to ruin your perfect record of being wrong about every single thing you’ve ever said, written, or thought!
Nope, Mac, you still retain that particular championship.
Paddy O'Shea
Shygetz: Mac Nuggets and Cole both have a valid point here. Equating the intellectual abilities of George W. Bush with TV comedians is quite appropriate, and probably explains a lot of things.
Geek, Esq.
Turkey
Bangladesh
Malaysia
Indonesia
for starters.
The democracy with the largest # of Muslims is actually India.
SomeCallMeTim
Iran. And they pretty much are taking over for us.
Paddy O'Shea
Ooohhh, did you see what the Geek just posted, John?
So maybe Maher is smarter than Bush after all.
Doesn’t say a whole lot for you, either.
By the way, doesn’t Bush regard Pakistan as being soemthing of a Democracy?
Steve S
So are you’re saying it’s impossible for Muslims to support democracy?
As others have pointed out, there are several. Some of them are not as stable as we might like, but regardless they do exist and we should support Democratic principles.
I don’t understand what this post is lashing out at. You’re complaining that Maher isn’t any smarter than Bush? Woot! It’s almost as good as the We’re not as bad as Hitler defense.
John Cole
I didn’tthink this post was ‘lashing out’ at anyone, just to point out that hell, yeah, replacing our troops with troops from a ‘muslim democracy’ sounds great. Just there aren’t any who can replace our troops.
And Paddy- I am well aware those nations are democracies of sorts, although some of them are closer to kleptocracies. Which one has 160k troops and the ability to put them in Iraq. And the desire.
John Cole
Paddy- Are you really Slide or Andrei? Am I going to have to check IP addresses?
John Cole
Holy loads of strawmen.
Paddy O'Shea
It would be a waste of your time if you did, but please do.
Let me know when you’ve finished so we can all have a good laugh about it.
salvage
Oh yeah- bonus points if he can provide us with a scenario to get this fictional Muslim Democracy to take over the situation in Iraq.
Bush threatens to invade them if they don’t.
Bill Maher praises Carrot Top, all you have to know about him.
Rob
If you are going to defend Bush’s intelligence , you are going to have to come up with an example of actual thought. Not a bad answer by someone else.
There isn’t a single job at my company that Bush is qualified for. Yet somehow there were enough scared little girls crapping their pants about tara-ists, and delusional enough to think boy george could do something about it that he was elected. Sad.
You reap what you sow
ppGaz
“Fictional Muslim democracies?”
But according to King George the Potatohead, Iraq will be a beacon of freedom and American-style democracy for the Arab region, leading to an end to terrorism, and I presume, a cure for arthritis.
Besides, what about Kuwait? Didn’t we “liberate” them?
Isn’t an oligarchy almost the same thing as a democracy?
Why aren’t we hearing the good news about oppresive oligarchies?
Saudi Arabia is advertising itself on the Internet now.
HH
John Cole, Bush apologist. Uh huh. Nice to see the intelligence of Paddy’s argument brought out.
Paddy O'Shea
9/11 was George W. Bush’s Reichstag fire. That he would have used this tragedy to justify shitting on the United States Constitution shouldn’t be surprising to anyone with an IQ north of an earthworm.
By the way, it looks like President monkeyshines deviated from his happy-face Iraq radio presentation this morning to pitch a little fit over the NY Times revelations regarding his illegal domestic spying operation.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051217/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
Steve S
LOL! I thought I was doing a nice impression of DougJ mimmicking a Republican argument.
ppGaz
Uh …..
Not according to National Review, or Turkey.
But hey, what do they know?
ppGaz
Thanks, Paddy, for the link.
Apparently Bush, and certain members of the Senate Intelligence are in disagreement on this.
But Bush is nothing if not open to new ideas, so I am sure that they’ll all work it out and the president can get back to the business of fucking over middle class Americans.
ppGaz
“Senate Intelligence” = “Senate Intelligence Subcommittee”
Horshu
It amazes me that so many people want to have a beer with W when the guy is a recovering alcoholic. Take out that fact, and I’m sure he’d be a blast at parties as long as he’s allowed to be alpha, but otherwise, it’s gotta be like talking to someone about some TV show when they don’t own a TV and get self-righteous about it.
Cromagnon
Well Maher isn’t running the country. The problem is that the crew that IS running the country doesn’t know WTF they’re talking about either… Can anyone name even one policy initiative, either foreign or domestic, that the Bubble-boy and crew haven’t totally screwed up??
Paddy O'Shea
Mr Gaz: Ask yourself this – If the persons in question had “a clear link” to al Qaeda, and they were an “imminent threat” to the U.S., and the U.S. govt knew where they are, why didn’t Genral Shrub just go and arrest them? Hell, Guantanamo is filled with people suspected of just those things.
I suspect that once the Senate investigation gets underway and they actually discover who some of the folks were that Snoopy George’s little fishing operation was spying upon, we’ll all have quite a bit to talk about.
CaseyL
What strikes me isn’t so much the failings of Arab democracies.
What strikes me is that Arab democracies – kleptocratic, theocratic, where domestic surveillance and “disappearment” are routine occurrences, and the printed news media by and large protect the powers that be – are rapidly becoming indistinguishable from American democracy. Not because Arab democracies are evolving, but because ours has devolved.
There’s a fine legacy for Bush and the Right: “America: Almost as democratic as Turkey.”
SoCalJustice
The Palestinian Authority is a “democracy.”
Hamas just won a “landslide” election in Nablus.
So I agree with Maher: Let’s send Hamas to Iraq.
Richard Bottoms
I’ve reached my limit of how civil I can be with Republicans and the reason is the warrantless spying of president Smirking Chimp’s abuse of the constitution.
Hear this: nothing you or any other conservative apologist complains about is as important as this umitigated disregard for our rights.
It isn’t about skirting the law now. It’s about the crushing blanket of despotism that will come after the first suitcase nuke goes off.
If our leaders can’t respect our rights after an attack that, however horrific, killed fewer people than die in a month in traffic accidents, what the fuck do you think will happen when 100,000 die in some blazing terrorist attack?
There is no excuse, none for not getting warrants. There’s even a provision for retroactive approval with 72 hours but these imperial shitheads couldn’t be bothered with that.
No this is it. This is the kine you’ve crossed. Not Terri Shiavo, not the Swift Boaters, not even calling vets who dare to dissent cowards. This is what will bury your fucking party in a well deserved grave.
Paddy O'Shea
Speaking of spying, John Cole? Have you tracked my IP address yet?
ppGaz
According to my intelligence agency, Paddy is actually Condoleeza Rice.
Paddy O'Shea
pp: I take it your intelligence agency is Busy Bees Temps.
Mona
Contra Mr. Maher, George Bush 43 does read books. Condi Rice has reported that W required most of his cabinet to read that volume.
stickler
You used “can” when you meant to use “will.”
There aren’t any Muslim countries, let alone democracies, who are willing to send troops to Iraq. At least, not so long as George W. Bush is President.
Paddy O'Shea
You know, we could be coming up on Bush’s Jimmy Swaggert moment. Karen Hughes is back advising him now that Karl Rove is otherwise occupied. Karen, of course, was the inventor of Shrub’s ‘compassionate conservative’ shtick, and what fits the mold better than this president, caught in a possibly impeachable offense, begging some good old time Christian begging for forgiveness?
“Ah did it because ah thought it would be the reht thang. Ah was ans’rin’ to the Lord and to me that is a higher authority thin tha Constitution. If ah done wrong its a cuz ah wanted to save America. (Tears begin as he falls to his knees and sobs) please belive me! Ah did it a cuz my heart tol’ me it was raht!”
I say he does it just before Christmas.
There won’t be a dry eye at Fox News. I’ll bet even Timmy Russert will shed a tear.
Bob In Pacifica
Actually, Indonesia is a democracy. Turkey is a democracy, although they’ve got a little too much interest in Iraq to supply troops. Iran is a democracy, of sorts, but then every democracy is a democracy of sorts. Egypt had an election. The West Bank had an election. Afghanistan had an election. And what about all those former Soviet republics with all that oil? Didn’t democracy march over there?
Richard Bottoms
Really. Last I heard the Indian Gurkas were some of the fiercest fighters in the world.
What won’t happen is for any other country of note beside the UK who will send in their troops to clean up our mess. Thank’s to president dickwad we’ve been told to screw off and deal with it ourselves.
CaseyL
Richard, I wish I could say with certainty that you’re right. I wish that with all of my heart.
But we’ve had 5 years of unrelenting illegality by the Bush Admin, and at each step along the way the GOP and its handmaids in the news media have convinced Americans there’s nothing bad about any of it.
We’ve had 4 years of knowing people were being held prisoner in violation of all legal norms, and the GOP and its handmaids in the news media convinced Americans there’s nothing bad about that.
We’ve had 2 years of knowing our government used torture against prisoners, sometimes to the point of murdering them, and the GOP and its handmaids in the news media convinced Americans there’s nothing bad about that.
It’s been at least 1 year since the last fig leaf over the lies that Bush used to sell the war have been known, incontrovertibly, to be lies, and the GOP and its handmaids in the news media convinced Americans there’s nothing bad about that.
I don’t think news about the illegal domestic surveillance will have enough impact. It’s not even violent; it’s just a subtle, inexorable erosion of American civil rights – an erosion of civil rights most Americans have been successfully conditioned to think are illegitimate anyway.
And Americans have also been successfully conditioned to accept, even applaud, being spied on and databased by everyone and everything. If we don’t mind car companies tracking us via built-in GPS systems, and we don’t mind every purchase we make being tracked by the stores we shop at, and we don’t mind RFID chips in our cars, drivers licenses and passports… all for the sake of convenience and small discounts… we’re not going to mind the government discreetly spying on us for the sake of “national security.”
Tulkinghorn
As a matter of constitutional law the executive can wiretap anyone it wants. It just can’t introduce said evidence in court.
Which is why habeas corpus is so critical — without admissable evidence they can’t keep you in jail. When the administration finishes losing on Padilla this will be shown to be pretty toothless, at least as far as citizens are concerned.
Vlad
Myself, I assumed he was talking about Egypt. They’re more of an autocracy in democracy’s clothing, but Egyptian troops in Iraq might actually make some measure of sense. What would they want in return?
India is also an interesting thought.
Tulkinghorn
As I recall, a lot of Egyptians in Kuwait were mistreated by the Iraqis before the first Iraq war. If we had a slightly competent president I expect some sort of diplomatic approach might work toward getting, say, 20,000 Egyptian soldiers in place.
The poor saps would get shot to hell, just like the Pakistani peacekeepers in Somalia. This would be useful for the larger diplomatic aims of the war on terror, though. I can’t remember anyone even bothering to articulate what the long term diplomatic strategy of this administration is.
ppGaz
Yes, “democracy” has to mean “stable, liberal democracy” in order to mean anything. There are no such proven governments in the Arab world, although Lebanon is heading in the right direction after many years of strife. In order to qualify, the liberal democracy must sustain a couple of regime change cycles without falling apart. So far, that I am aware of, no predominately Arab country can qualify for the title of “stable liberal democracy.”
As we have said before, the worldwide failure rate for this accomplishment in the last 100 years or so has been around 80 percent. That’s according to the eggheads who teach such things at them big Eastern universities.
Anyhoo, the liklihood that Iraq is going to end up with a secular, stable, liberal democracy friendly to Western interests is ….. uh …. well …. it’s right down there with discovery of green cheese in the moon and with the repeal of the income tax in the United States.
However, with a government that operates on magical thinking, we can be assured that our elected Spuds are working on the problem and will come up with something soon.
Perry Como
We’re at war. You need to trust that the President will do what’s best for the country, because our nation was built on trust in the government. Now you’re just bitter because your side lost.
Richard Bottoms
“This far and no farther. The line must be drawn here.”
– Jean Luc Picard
Amusing yes, but I am dead serious. This is really it. Impeach this president. Now.
Mona
CaseyL claims: We’ve had 4 years of knowing people were being held prisoner in violation of all legal norms, and the GOP and its handmaids in the news media convinced Americans there’s nothing bad about that.
We’ve had 2 years of knowing our government used torture against prisoners, sometimes to the point of murdering them, and the GOP and its handmaids in the news media convinced Americans there’s nothing bad about that.
It’s been at least 1 year since the last fig leaf over the lies that Bush used to sell the war have been known, incontrovertibly, to be lies,
I don’t see evidence for any of that. As one who voted for Bush in ’04 on foreign policy grounds, I have also strongly objected to much of his and the GOP’s domestic agenda, inlcuding the erosion of civil liberties. This is an important issue, and should not be obscured by hand-waving about unproven allegations that support Bush as the Source of All Evil.
For an intelligent, contstrained discussion of what is so wrong with Bush et al. vis-a-vis civil liberties, checks and balances, and the separation of powers, see Glenn Greenwald’s latest.
Richard Bottoms
>I don’t see evidence for any of that.
Then you are blind. And I am through having sympathy for your dilema about supporting a president in wartime. This is a democracy, not a goddam monarchy.
Gitmo is a completely illegal violation of the rights of every prisoner there. The justification for its very existence violates our laws and certainly world opnion about any country’s right to snatch people up and spirit them away.
There are guilty men there, but there are innocent men there most certainly as well and they have no way at all to prove their innocence in a court of law because George Bush says they don’t get to have one.
We’ve have frozen men to death in unheated cells in Afghanistan, beaten them until they die from internal injuries, over and over again. It doesn’t matter if it was once or 100 times. The fact is it’s happened.
You get no more benefit of the doubt, yur glorious leader no more leeway. George Bush is engaging in lawless behaviour and wrapping in the flag doesn’t make it any less odious.
Fuck him. Fuck the Republican congress.
Jason
Oh, yeah. India. That’s a great idea. After all, Islam and Hinduism is really the same thing, right?
Geez you guys are half-wits.
Oh, I’m sure Indonesia’s got the combined arms capabilities and force-protection logistics and armor to fight it out in Iraq.
You guys really need to get out of fantasy land.
Jason
Oooh. Turkey. That’s brilliant. There’s no animosity between Arabs and Turks, anyway.
Hey, let’s give them responsibility for the Kurdish area! THAT’LL be good for a laugh!
(rolling eyes)
Perry Como
This is true. The opponent we face in Iraq is the most technologically advanced enemy we’ve ever seen.
Peter ve
Well, Iran just had an “Election”, the Iranian supported parties (SCIRI, Dawa & c.) have had the largest numbers of elected officials in the current Iraqi government, and large numbers of the militias affiliated with those parties are being assimilated into the national Iraqi army. It seems that we are slowly turning Iraq over to the control of a Muslim democracy, although I doubt that this is what the Bush Administration had in mind in February, 2002.
Paddy O'Shea
Tulkingham intones: “As a matter of constitutional law the executive can wiretap anyone it wants.”
Question there, Mighty Tulk: If what you are saying here is true, why all this messy debate about the Patriot Act? If Bush and his handlers can snoop on anyone they want irregardless of the law, why do they need the approval of Congress?
As Senator Russ Feingold said this morning: “If that’s true, he (Bush) doesn’t need the Patriot Act because he can just make it up as he goes along. I tell you, he’s President George Bush, not King George Bush. This is not the system of government we have and the we fought for…”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10505574/
The last time somebody floated the argument you’ve stated here was during the Nixon administration. Something called Watergate. And we all know what happened to those dirtbags.
ppGaz
Running for office again? ‘Cause I think you have that opening line down pretty well.
I see a future for you in government communications.
Mona
You get no more benefit of the doubt, yur glorious leader no more leeway. George Bush is engaging in lawless behaviour and wrapping in the flag doesn’t make it any less odious.
Hysterical histrionics such as that does nothing to advance intelligent discussion. This is from that WaPo article you link to:
There has been no independent corroboration of Begg’s accusations. He said that FBI investigators recently interviewed him by telephone about the first case. He was questioned by U.S. military investigators at Guantanamo about the second case, he said.
The U.S. military has charged 14 soldiers at Bagram in the abuse of inmates and the deaths of two prisoners. It was unclear whether the deaths Begg said he had seen were the same as those deaths. So far, six soldiers have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to abuse charges and three have been acquitted.
So, you see, the FBI is investigating, and soliders have been prosecuted for torturing and killing prisoners against U.S. policy and all civilized law. In point of fact, this kind of barbarism happens in every war, including those considered good by nearly all, such as WWII.
Do see this about WWII in The Atlantic which quotes WWII war correspondent Edgar L. Jones who in 1946 acknowledged in that same magazine:
What kind of war do civilians suppose we fought, anyway? We shot prisoners in cold blood, wiped out hospitals, strafed lifeboats, killed or mistreated enemy civilians, finished off the enemy wounded, tossed the dying into a hole with the dead, and in the Pacific boiled the flesh off enemy skulls to make table ornaments for sweethearts, or carved their bones into letter openers.
So, should we denounce all supporters of FDR as supporting lawless behavior who should get no more leeway?
Tulkinghorn
And what happened is that laws were passed that made such surveillance illegal. My point is that what we have here is not so much a violation of a constitutional right but a straightforward conspiracy by the executive to violate the law.
You can’t clearly impeach a president because of constitutionally questionable actions.. it is like the peasant in ‘Monty Python’ crying “Help, help, I am being repressed!” Where we have the executive systematically and secretly violating a law that was put in place precisely to make this action illegal, then we have something much closer to ‘high crimes and misdemeanors.’
The remedy for an abuse of rights is just redress in court. We are dealing with something that is much more legally serious here.
I always expected the republicans would lament the day they lowered the bar for impeachment. I never expected the day to come so soon.
So is Leiberman going to be the first Democrat to utter the “I” word this time?
ppGaz
Now you’re talkin’!!
Boil those fucking raghead skulls. Toss those Quran-mumblin’ motherfuckers into the hole with the dead.
“I said I would do everything in my power to protect Americans, and that’s the way I intend to conduct my presidency.” — G. W. Bush, 12/16/05
Damn fucking straight! They knocked down our Manhattan postcard icons, we want blood, GODDAMMIT.
The rest of you pussies, shut the hell up.
Paddy O'Shea
Tulk: And will Larry Craig be the first Republican?
Tulkinghorn
Republicans only cast themselves as Libertarians when circumstances oblige them to allow people who are not like themselves to hold political power. Liberty they want, but for themselves, not for people who do not look like them and think like them.
There is a word for that, and it is not ‘libertarian.’
TallDave
And as we’re being perceived as imperial invaders, wouldn’t the solution be to have Muslim countries who are also democracies replace the American troops there as the American troops are lightning rods for insurgent attacks?
Yes, brilliant. I’m sure the Shias and Kurds were overjoyed by the fact that they were being slaughtered wholesale by fellow Muslim Sunnis.
And I bet those Muslim democracies are just lining up for the chance to fight in Iraq. And I bet their soldiers are every bit as professional and well-equipped as ours; it’s not like we’re the world’s sole military superpower or something.
The only people fighting us in Iraq are Sunnis, and they’re fighting because they want to be in charge again, not because they think this is Crusades Part Deux.
TallDave
Liberty they want, but for themselves, not for people who do not look like them and think like them.
That sounds more like the position of people who opposed the war.
ppGaz
I’m sure the Shias and Kurds were overjoyed by the fact that they were being slaughtered wholesale by fellow Muslim Sunnis.
From the TallDave Institute for Middle Eastern Policy.
Putting together a new white paper, Davester?
TallDave
Paddy,
And they ain’t no democracy.
I guess you missed the 11 million votes the other day. And the election in January, and the constitutional referendum.
There’s that freedom-loving “reality”-based comunity again!
TallDave
Plus, where was the off-topic poll, Paddy? You’re slipping.
Here, let me help:
Less than half, and falling.
Paddy O'Shea
Tall Dave: The reference you cited was to Iran. You know, the Shi’ite Islamic Republic whose interests we are so selflessly (and inadvertently) representing in Iraq?
But hey, if that’s your idea of a Democracy, well then you go right on ahead and get your happy ass over there.
Just leave the boys alone, OK? They hang people for that sort of thing.
Tulkinghorn
I am talking about rights between different U.S. Citizens.
As far as I know, conservatives have never, NEVER suppoorted using US power to support the spread of freedom, liberty and democracy around the world.
You are taking a position clearly to the left of Jimmy Carter in order to create some sort of ex post facto defense of Bush 43. It would be pathetic if it were not so funny.
Just like Clinton’s impeachment, you are lowering the bar so far that your are ruining your cause in the long run.
Jon H
John writes: “And Paddy- I am well aware those nations are democracies of sorts, although some of them are closer to kleptocracies. Which one has 160k troops and the ability to put them in Iraq. And the desire.”
India alone has a Muslim population about equal to the population of the entire United States.
I’m guessing we could offer to pay them half of what we pay our troops, and they’d be lining up at the recruiting stations.
We could handle much of the logistics to transport them.
Jon H
John writes: ” I am well aware those nations are democracies of sorts, although some of them are closer to kleptocracies.”
What do you think we’re making in Iraq?
Hell, what do you think the GOP is?
Richard Bottoms
>Hysterical histrionics such as that does nothing to advance >intelligent discussion.
My point is I am past intelligent discussion with people who can find no fault with a president who has decided he alone gets to decide what is constitutional and right.
My blood is boiling in a way that almost defies being put into words.
In the past I have just been irritated with Republican blindness, sometimes angry with horror shows like Terri (she spoke to me) Shiavo. But this is beyond that, way, way beyond that.
I have been pretty reasonable in these forums, sometimes sarcastic but generally just trying to share my view with those who politically disagree with me.
But now it has come to: these men must be stopped. We need to drive Republicans from office. Every right wing thug, every fiscal moderate, every RHINO. Every fucking last one of them because your party just doesn’t believe in the constitution anymore.
Richard Bottoms
This shit hs gone too far:
He took out a book!!! Did 9/11 cause a national outbreak of isanity?
TallDave
Tulk,
I am talking about rights between different U.S. Citizens
Then you’re talking nonsense, not to mention being unfairly exclusionary to the 5+ billion people who happen not to dwell between Canada and Mexico.
Paddy,
You know, the Shi’ite Islamic Republic whose interests we are so selflessly (and inadvertently) representing in Iraq?
Yeah, a free democracy allied to the U.S. right on Iran’s border is real good news for that repressive theocracy. I bet they love hearing about the women’s rights groups forming in Iraq. They may not have liked Saddam, but who did want him in power? Oh, right, you. Ultimately, the real freedom and democracy the Iranian people see in Iraq is the greatest threat to the Iranian regime.
But hey, if that’s your idea of a Democracy, well then you go right on ahead and get your happy ass over there
Well, the military is overwhelmingly Republican, so as soon as you guys start pulling your weight I’ll entertain complaints that the red half of the country should be doing more.
TallDave
Richard Bottoms,
My God! He was visited! They may even have asked him questions!
The horror.
Mona
Tall Dave says: My God! He was visited! They may even have asked him questions!
The horror.
Well, come on. If this were 1950, then it might make sense to monitor people who checked out The Little Red Book. But Chinese Marxists are not flying airliners into our centers of commerce or blowing up subway stations. It is pretty creepy to think of the FBI showing up at one’s home by virtue of one having made an inter-libray loan request for a primary source that is absolutely legit for many fields of study.
Jason
Ok. So what in the world does that have to do with Indonesia’s strategic sealift, transnational trucking capability, and ability to sustain itself in the field over supply lines that are thousands of miles long?
You don’t think that takes a bit of planning and organization and force structuring YEARS before the event?
The reason the US can sustain a logistics push in Iraq is because we planned for it in 1980. We can bring other small units in, but they are all dependent upon the US logistics tail, which is unique in the world.
And the reason a force of 130,000 can militarily dominate a country of 23 million people is because of the logistics and because of a combined arms doctrine that integrates fire and maneuver and allows even a platoon of Marines to mass overwhelming firepower at the point of decision, such that they are rarely directly challenged.
Why? Because we structured our forces to be able to do just that, going back to Omar Bradley.
The Indonesians do not have that capability either. It will take them 700,000 troops to be able to match that, and probably not even then. And the logistics do not exist to support an army of that size. We’re better off training Iraqis, who do not have to worry about a supply line spanning half the globe.
Paddy O'Shea
Tall Dave doesn’t seem to be able to follow the conversation.
Does anyone know if he fell down and hit his head or something?
Perry Como
I was merely agreeing with your sarcastic comment. The truth is that the US is the only nation capable of spreading democracy in the Middle East. We will plant democracy at the tip of a bayonette, and no amount of American lives are too great a sacrifice to make sure that Iraqis get to vote. We must stay the course and support our President, no matter how many constitutional amendments he violates, or seperations of power he coopts.
We are at war. People need to make sacrifices. Giving up some of our liberties is clearly a fair trade for security.
S.W. Anderson
Theoretically, an Arabian democracy is possible. As a practical matter, it’s a question of what century lightning will finally strike — and this doesn’t seem to be the one.
I think if Mad Magazine were to design a solution to the Iraq quagmire, it would have to center on sending in Saudi Arabian forces and diplomats to straighten things out.
From what I’ve seen in the news over the last several years, what Saudi Arabia’s security and law enforcement operations lack in competence they more than make up for in corruption or, as you prefer, divided loyalties. In short, I wouldn’t trust one of them to be able find his own butt with a wad of TP. The upshot would more likely be Zarqawi dictating to the Royals and conducting foreign-targeted operations from a Saudi province where he’s left the hell alone, than one of Saudi officials putting things right in Iraq.
Seb
“My point is I am past intelligent discussion with …”
I get the feeling it wasn’t too much of a journey for you.
“…people who can find no fault with a president who has decided he alone gets to decide what is constitutional and right.”
If you’re past rational discussion, you should quit typing now. This would be a good idea for most people on the web, of course, but the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, and all that.
Richard Bottoms
Yes. And according to president Dumb Motherfucker they could have spirited him away to who knows where for however long they saw fit withoout telling a living soul who knew him simply on his presidential say so.
Fuck that. Fuck him.
srv
In TD’s world, GW would have invaded Rwanda, Serbia and Kosovo had he just been in power back then. Because he is in the party of freedom and liberty. And that nation building was always been in vogue amongst Republicans. And he would have supported invading Iraq back in the 80’s, but Gorby was just always in our way…
I’d respect TD more if just admitted he was a very, very, very uncommon Republican who had very little in common with the general population on the right.
ppGaz
Votes don’t make a democracy, you moron. They had votes in Iraq when fucking Hussein was in power.
Votes mean nothing. A stable, liberal democracy friendly to Western interests; that’s the only outcome that justifies this war. Even if it were likely, which it is not, the events of this week prove nothing.
The stable democracy must be able to withstand challenges from inside and outside the country, and defend itself. It must be able to withstand cycles of orderly regime change. And of course, if it’s hostile to us, nothing worthwhile has really been accomplished.
And here’s the beauty part: Even if it all comes true just like a fairy story, it won’t have justified the war, because these dishonest fuckbrains didn’t pimp the war by trying to sell Iraqi democracy. They sold WMDs which were nonexistent.
So you can stop acting like your statistical noise poll shift is the equivalent of winning the Super Bowl. You’re embarassing yourself again.
Theseus
Bill Maher is an insufferable jackass who used to be funny before he starting taking himself way too seriously and suddenly became an expert on every goddamn issue in existence!
Turkey is the inheritor of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the Middle East for the better part of over 500 years. They ain’t exaclty everybody’s best friend in the region, especially with their former Arab subjects. And Turkey may not be a “perfect” democracy and they may slide back and forth, but they’re still one of the best examples out there, especially from a Muslim perspective. But like all countries, their situation is unique.
As for the rest, I don’t know enough to comment with any greater detail, expect to say that most of those countries are a mess, with the possible exception of Malaysia. And they have far too many internal problems or battles to even consider sending substantial troops abroad and in any case, most of their troops are no match for American troops.
India would be nice, but with nuclear armed Pakistan, China, soon-to-be-Iran, an economy that needs to be taken care of and a pretty combustionable internal mix, I don’t see that happening quite yet. Incidentally, India is a decent enough example of how a heterogenous population can, with some painfulness, difficulty and accomadations, make democracy work for them, in their own way.
In any case, the Iraqis are far better off, both in the mid to long term, having the world’s finest military showing them how it’s done.
Sherard
Is this really what masquerades as intelligent debate now ?
Are you kidding me ? Maher is a moron, critically affected by “Bush Derangement Syndrom”. My personal opinion is that caller was probably kidding. But Maher is so damn overcome by hatred that he has no idea what real humor is.
Andrei
There you go, John! Obviously Bill Maher is the problem. Let’s all discuss Maher now instead of something more relevant.
And no I’m not Paddy. I wouldn’t have simply told you to eff off in that post, right? Because I’m just an idiot, not as smart as you of course.
I’ve pretty much given up on Balloon-Juice. I read your posts now simply to find links to conservative websites since I can barely stomach anything on the GOP side of the aisle these days. I like to balance my doses of DaouReport, Talkingpointsmemo.com, DailyKos.com, Salon.com, LATimes, NYTimes, IrelevantPundit.com and other random musings with as much information to allow me to make an independent judgement as possible. If anything, I thank you for giving me a channel into information that I have hard time finding otherwise.
But your opinions and commentary are pretty much pointless. That’s my take after reading here for the past year. You’ve found a voice in being a curmudgeon, and I applaud you as a character actor. But you bounce around more than Andrew Sullivan does, with the only consistency I’ve detected being you like to berate and criticize others, until of course they rat you out in your own house.
I guess the day you come around and acknowledge that a pre-emptive war in Iraq might not have been not the best course of action to solve the very real problem we face with terrorism and issues around globalism, human rights and religious fanaticism is the day I might find Balloon-Juice relevant again.
Everything else is blathering hot air, so you do have your branding down right. I’ll grant you that.
I’ve got a life to live and lots of money to make to live. So I’ll let you wallow with the likes of TallDave, Stormy, Mac Buckets and Darrell. You deserve their company, quite obviously.
Richard Bottoms
What you don’t seem to get is I am one of the reasonable people, polical and partisan yes but a non-believer in conspiracy theories, highly conservative, and open to using forums to debate and convince.
What you see today is rage. Rage that this rape of the constitution is just fine and dandy with you because this smirking frat boy says so.
It wrong. Just like torture is wrong regardless of how this band of zealots twists the English language to justify it.
I know 48% of the country will be all for anything GW does cause he keeps the fags from getting hitched and all.
But that 3% swing group is getting harder and harder to keep convinced that their rights and their lives will be best served by this band of thugs.
Tulkinghorn
I am in error when I accuse TallDave of being a wingnut. Rather he has revealed himself to be a left winger who determined to spend American treasure and blood to make the world a better place, even when this means getting involved in conflicts where there is not imminent threat to the US.
The Neocons all used to be socialists… now we are getting a new generation of liberal triumphalist in the model of Disraeli… I can’t believe a republican president has me playing the part of Gladstone.
ppGaz
That’s right, because real everyday people just love a stupid, alcoholic illiterate asshole who has “no interest in reading other opinions” in the paper, and thinks God tells him what to do. I mean, what’s wrong with that deranged Maher, anyway? Can’t he find it in his godless heart to love George Bush, the failed-businessman-turned-president who thinks he can single-handedly reform the most — and longest — fucked up region on earth, promoting the feeding of brain-dead hospice patients against their will, advancing the cause of superstition over science, bankrupting the nation with tax cuts in the face of expensive war and profligate spending, trashing liberties and seizing power under the guise of “protecting freedom” …. who the fuck wouldn’t just love a guy like that?
That Maher must be out of his ever-lovin’ mind to “hate” a guy who, according to a majority of recently polled citizens, deliberately misled his country into war.
Who put this dumbshit Maher on tv, anyway?
How long before this so-called comedian ruins the country?
ppGaz
That’s right, now that I read it, Bush is a LOT funnier than this Maher guy. Smarter and funnier.
That’s why I love this blog, you learn so much here.
ppGaz
See, now looking under the sofa cushions for WMDs, now that’s FUNNY. Like I said, Bush is a LOT funnier and smarter than Maher ever could be.
Shee-it, yes.
See, people got KILLED looking for those WMDs. Now that’s a comedian who REALLY IS KILLIN ‘EM.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Get it!?!?!?
ppGaz
Judge for yourself! Who’s really funny? Bush, or Bill?
Hell, this ain’t no contest! Bush wins … again!
Paddy O'Shea
Loons! Wingnuts! Morans! Tall Dave! Time to strap on the foil and get out the blue body paint and weenie tassles!! The ACLU is going after the beloved War President!
Iyyiyyiyyiyyiyyiyyiyiyyy!!! Woo!! Woo-De-Woo!! Woo!!
“Eavesdropping on conversations of U.S. citizens and others in the United States without a court order and without complying wth the procedures of the foreign Intelligence Syrvellience Act is both illegal and unconstitutional,” said Caroline Fredrickson, Director of the American Civil liberties Union’s Washington Legislative Office, in a written release. “The administration is claiming extraordinary presidential powers at the expense of civil liberties and is putting the president above the law,” she said.
Uh oh, and a traitor within the War President’s own party? Freedom hating terrorist Saddam lover!!!
The wiretaps are “wrong, clearly and categorically wrong,” said Sen. Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican …
Specter, who chairs the Judiciary Committee, promised that a Senate probe of Bush’s actions will begin “as soon as we can get it in the new year — a very, very high priority item.”
http://www.marketwatch.com/
DougJ
This is outrageous! Why is someone like Bill Maher allowed to get away with this? Why is that it’s a “big deal” when the vice president lies about our reasons for going to war, but when a talk show host goes on Larry Kings and says something silly about Arab democracies, no one seems to care? Can’t you see what a double standard that it? And you can be Maher’s foot soldiers on NPR will be smearing that caller now. That’s the worst part of this whole thing.
DougJ
The sick thing is how the ACLU defends scum like Maher and their anti-American hate speech.
kate
I mostly lurk here and never post .. but I have to say I have a crush on DougJ
srv
Trust me, he’ll just break your heart like the rest of them. I’m his more attractive cousin, BTW.
Pb
Is France a democracy? :)
Anyhow. Bush probably thinks Uzbekistan is a democracy. And he acts like we have a monarchy, so go figure–maybe he just doesn’t know the difference.
As for Saudi Arabia, it would have been great if we could have gotten them to help at all, like we did for instance in Gulf War I. In fact, that was basically a requirement back then to even go into Iraq. Guess they weren’t about to fall for the phony satellite photos routine twice.
Zoe Brain
Muslim Democracies….
Turkey – has ethnic problems with Kurds, so is out, except in the South. They’d want cash up front though.
Bangladesh – not possible, military notoriously weak and corrupt, too much so even for the UN.
Malaysia – not too bad, not too corrupt, not too anti-semitic, but very small. They could make a small contribution, if paid enough.
Indonesia – an “emerging” democracy at best, more a Feudal state. Track record not good, as in East Timor.
Iraq – that’s the best, richest and most functional Muslim democracy there is right now. Experience in counter-insurgency, they know the climate, perfect for the job.
Yes, we should send in Iraqis to replace US troops.
Oh wait a second…..
DougJisAll
Then you have a crush on half the posters here. One and the same.
Veeshir
How funny is it that Andre penned the most intelligent post from the leftards here?
Very fricking funny.