John Kerry goes to the Daily Kos to defend Michael Moore and claim we let Osama escape.
Apparently this was done to give Karl Rove an easy way to tar and feather Democrats with Moore again this election.
Brilliant!
*** Update ***
LMAO. Michael Moore seems to be having fun with the whole flap.
Paddy O'Shea
Oh, of course! Michael Moore is so much a pariah that no one should even dare to speak his name.
It is interesting to see who it is that snaps to attention now that the Pillsbury Rove Boy has risen from his bunker.
searp
Maybe everything is tactical and the truth is unimportant. Maybe everything is political and policy doesn’t matter.
Somehow, though, I doubt it. Why shouldn’t Kerry defend Michael Moore? Equating Michael Moore to UBL is really, really, stupid and shameful.
We didn’t let Osama escape, our incompetence simply guaranteed that it would be easy for him to escape. You can explain a lot with this administration that way.
I’d rather read what Kerry had to say any day than listen to Rove. It may not be popular, it may not be politic, but so be it. I am certainly glad someone speaks up.
scarpy
I agree with the first two….Let’s be clear on the real stupidity here. It’s pretty freakin’ ignorant to compare UBL with Michael Moore, and it indicates that the speaker really doesn’t seriously grasp what UBL is about.
Catch the bastard, Karl. Catch him or kill him, and show us the body. Until then, every time he pops up it reminds us of your boss’s continued failure to deal with the real issue.
Paddy O'Shea
It’s been over 4 years since Al Qaeda killed 3,000 people in New York. The people who did this are still at large, still killing Amercans, and still brazenly strutting about the world stage.
For Traitor Rove to stand up and declare that the Bush admin is somehow indispensible in the so-called “War On Terrorism” is absurd.
The criticism the Bush administration is deserved. They’ve had over 4 years to make good on their pledge to avenge 9-11, and they have failed. Miserably.
It is a shame we just can’t fire these assholes and get some people in there who will get the job done.
searp
To me, the travesty is that the administration refuses to engage its critics in a substantive way, preferring the route of calling them traitors or softies. No wonder half the country is spitting mad. Evidently good politics, but also pretty clearly abysmal governance.
The genius of this administration can be summarized in one phrase: dirty politics is more important than decent policy.
Richard Bottoms
Yet again the Democrats are crticized for not doing the politically smart thing, in this ignoring that a fellow citizen has been called a traitor.
What Matthews said was dispicable. The fact that you believe the only way for Democrats to stop this insanity is to be mum is worse.
ppGaz
Cut the crap, man. Kerry simply pointed out that OBL, and not Moore, is the enemy. That speaking out against the US government is an American thing to do, and we’d be wise not to trust a government that tries to turn opposition into the enemy.
But of course, you’re just a communications professor, how the hell could you be expected to understand something so subtle, or be honest about it?
No, it’s the weekend, let’s troll our own blog.
ppGaz
Why do we think he escaped, John? Could it have anything to do with this:
Whose fucking FAULT was that little change in policy?
John Cole
I find it deeply amusing that you all can muster this much outrage at this absurd non-scandal.
Yawn.
Deeply Offended!
How Dare THEY!
jg
So it starts. The right has begun its re election campaign by painting the left as traitors and JC attacks someone pointing out the stupidity of it.
jg
Because we can see how this absurd non scandal will end up. All facts lost in a sea of rhetoric about how the dems can’t protect us from the growing communist threat. Oh wait thats old the new scare story is terrorism. Color alerts will be back soon too.
Cromagnon
We did let Osama escape. That’s because Rummy was more concerned with validating his pet theories about warfare (less is more) rather than insuring we had an adequate presense on the ground in terms of conventional forces early on in Afghanistan. When Osama was cornered at Tora Bora almost all of our conventional light infantry forces were twiddling their thumbs back in the US, so we had to rely on Afghans and Osama escaped. The unforgiving minute in action…
OCSteve
And Tucker Carlson, and Joe Scarborough …
I don’t think anyone is equating Moore to UBL. The point is that UBL covered pretty much all of the DNC talking points.
This is the premiere example of why it is a bad thing for the opposition party to substitute bogus claims repeated daily and carried by the media for any substantive programs of their own.
It is ammunition for the enemy. There is no clearer example than this. Practically everything UBL said was a Dem/liberal claim we have heard parroted for years.
You have substantive disagreements with this war – by all means let’s hear them, let’s have the public debate. But Bush lied/Halliburton/war for Oil etc. are not only BS – its ammo for our enemies and there has never been a clearer case in point.
ppGaz
Well then, Mission Accomplished! That’s what we are here for … to amuse you.
searp
I hope that is the Republican tactic this fall. I hope every time a Republican opens his/her mouth all they can say is “traitor”. Asked about Medicare: “traitor”. Asked about Social Security: “traitor” Asked about Iraq: “traitor”.
I can’t wait. Eventually, the public will begin asking “traitor to who or what?”
OCSteve
BTW – Tucker Carlson has inadvertently written the first campaign commercial for 06, undoubtedly to be dusted off for 08.
DougJ
Uh, John, we did let Osama escape. There’s no question about that. You can question how it happened, if it was incompetence of bad luck, but he did escape. Otherwise, we would have him custody. Right? Isn’t that the definition of escape, to elude capture?
DougJ
OCSteve, did you know that Joe Scarborough probably killed one of his interns?
Olly McPherson
“I find it deeply amusing that you all can muster this much outrage at this absurd non-scandal.”
This from someone who pisses himself at every comment from Cindy Sheehan.
my cat
This attack on Moore is typical of the dishonest and unpatriotic behavior of the right wing extreme which controls the Republican party and to which Tweety was pandering. It is a big deal, John. The goal is to distroy civil discourse by demonizing the opposition. It is anti-democratic behavior and the peolple who engage in it should be called out every time.
To the person upthread who linked Kerry’s quote about “no big deal” to Bin Ladin’s escape–are you under the impression that Kerry was the Commander-in-chief? Or are you so full of hatred that you are blaming a Democrat for a Republican’s behavior?
OCSteve
Isn’t that like an initiation requirement in some DC circles?
CaseyL
What Rove meant was: “Michael Moore sounds like OBL. Democrats defend Moore. Therefore, Democrats are defending OBL. Therefore, Democrats are pro-terrorist.”
And when Rove speaks, the jackdaws listen, and repeat. Matthews, every commentator on Fox, and the wingnut blogosphere. Once again, any criticism of Bush is derided as “objectively pro-terrorist.”
Here’s the thing: the Bush Admin and its enablers can’t possibly be serious. Or, OK, they could possibly be serious – but only if they’re all such mental defectives that they shouldn’t be trusted to operate household appliances.
So, assuming they’re not mental defectives (and I’m doing them a real courtesy there), what are their motives? To actually discuss or address the issue of terrorism and national security?
Please. Have we gotten so degraded, so devolved, that we actually think “Moore=OBL=Kerry=Democrats” is how we should discuss policy issues?
No. It’s juvenalism. It’s not even meant to be taken seriously. It’s throwaway rhetoric meant to elicit the Wingnut equivalent of a pumped fist and a “Right on, man!”
But – and here’s the crux of the matter – juvenalism, throwaway bullshit rhetoric, is all we get from the Bush Admin and its enablers. Not just on OBL, but on the “WoT” itself, there has never been, at any time since 9/11, anything remotely resembling a real policy discussion or analysis. Nothing about who the enemy is, nothing about how best to fight the enemy, nothing about how many of our resources or soldiers or civil liberties can be, should be, spent to wage the “WoT.”
Bush has spent years telling us that terrorism is a worse threat than the Axis Powers were. Bush has spent years telling us that terrorism is a worse threat than Communism was. That’s how he justifies tossing the Constitution out the window. That’s how he justifies putting himself above the law. That’s how he justifies spying on us, putting us in prison without charges or counsel or any hope of ever getting out, and defying Congress and the SCOTUS when they oppose him.
Well, if terrorism is that big a threat, so big that we’re about to lose everything we are, and everything we value, fighting it, don’t you think it’s incumbent upon Bush to speak seriously about it? To talk to us like he’s an adult, and we’re adults? To tell us exactly what he plans to do, how long he plans to do it, and what “victory” will look like? Don’t you think we deserve that consideration?
The Right doesn’t think so. The Right is either so pants-shitting scared it doesn’t want to know anything about anything, just-make-us-feel-safe-Daddy… or the Right knows the whole thing is bullshit, is nothing more than juvenalism writ large and likes it that way.
And what that says to me is, the WoT is bullshit.
And when I hear pissant nonsense like “Moore=OBL=Kerry=Democrats” that confirms the WoT is bullshit.
moflicky
most of the comments are right along the lines of…
is it any more freakin’ ignorant than comparing gitmo to nazi concentration camps, pol pot’s purges or the soviet gulags?
ah, I didn’t think so.
there’s no monopoly on “freakin’ ignorant”
SeesThroughIt
Well, I’m pretty sure it’s part of the hazing of junior senators at any rate.
Ancient Purple
OBL also covered this gem as well: “This is going to be a generations long war and we need patience.”
That was said by GWB and repeated by OBL. I mean he (OBL) sounds like an over the top George W. Bush here, if not a George W. Bush.
moflicky
To me, the travesty is that the administration’s critics refuse to engage them in a substantive way, preferring to bring up prompting recievers in the president’s suit jacket, manufactured OBL tapes and accusations of misuse of NSA intelligence, where no evidence of any of the above exists.
give me a substantive argument, and I’d be happy to engage you.
Paddy O'Shea
Poor Cole is getting taken to the woodshed on this one.
He really needs to get out more. Cut down on the TV watching and blog reading. You know, mingle a bit with the human race.
You really have to work hard to get this out of touch.
moflicky
The right claims Matthews is liberal, the left claims he’s a righty.
I just claim that he’s simply an idiot. who watches this guy anyway, and if they do, why? He’s not said a single intelligent thing in years, and the only time I hear about him is when this blog or that blog posts the video to something stupid he’s said.
John Cole
No. Some of you people are just morons.
I never said anything was fair or right, I never claimed that this is what Republicans should do in 2006, and I never said that Democrats are soft on terorism.
What I said was that it is politically stupid for the standard-bearer of the Democratic Party to go to a progressive blog and write a defense of Michael Moore. It simply writes the narrative for Karl Rove.
Now some of you idiots may not realize how the vast majority of the country views Michael Moore, but that doesn;t mean I have to play alongwith your silliness. The image of Michael Moore is secure. It is fixed. That is why someone like Matthews could say, when OBL offers a truce, that “OBL sounds like Michael Moore.”
You may not like it, you may not think it is fair. But it is the reality of the situation, and Kerry running to DKos to defend Moore was stupid.
But then again, I am out of touch, and the deep thinkers like Paddy O’Shea are really in touch with the country. I’ll just note that while Kerry is defending Moore, and you are all throwing yourselves on grenades defending Kerry, Karl Rove is telling the country this:
But again- Paddy O’Shea thinks he is speaking for the majority, and I am the one who is out of touch.
MN Politics Guru
What if it was reversed? What if some liberal said that OBL sounds like Pat Robertson? Would conservatives be stupid to defend Robertson? Would it be a big deal, or would it be another non-scandal?
John Cole
Pat Robertson DOES sound like Osama bin Laden.
MN Politics Guru
I agree, but if a major media personality made such a comment, I highly doubt that Republicans would not come to his defense and call for the head of whoever made the commment.
Since I don’t pay attention to what bin Laden says, what’s the context here? In what way does OBL’s latest tape sound like an “over the top Michael Moore”?
Paddy O'Shea
Cole, you are just too much this morning! Really!
Open a window or something, will you? Get some air at least.
I thought it was rather heroic of John Kerry to stand up for so unpopular a figure as Michael Moore. McCarthyism needs to be called out no matter how disadventageous it might seem at the moment. And rather than cower in the corner from Cruel Karl as you suggest, John Kerry stood up and did the right thing.
But, seeings how you are occasionally caught up in the sort of thing thing from time to time, can we possibly take a step beyond the mere personalities involved here and consider that maybe there was a little more at stake? That perhaps Moore is not the only opposition figure that has been smeared by Rove and his band of slimy cable hacks in this way? And that maybe Kerry also made some other points, points that you have so conveniently ignored?
The big issue is the failure of the Bush administration to do anything effective in the “War On Terrorism.” It is over 4 years on, hundreds of billions have been spent, 10s of thousands of our people have either been killed or maimed, and we’re stuck in a quagmire with no honorable or strategically acceptable way out. Precious little has been gained, and Bush is now faced with the possibility of losing his signature issue.
Of course Karl Rove doesn’t want the national conversation to go in that direction. Rather he’d rather participate in the kinds of tabloid crap you take so much pleasure in. Moore baiting, Sheehan baiting, Kerry baiting, Murtha baiting, on and on it goes. All with the suggestion that those who would dare to question Bush on his failure to stop terrorism are somehow in league with the enemy.
Isn’t that how the Bush discourse usually goes? Aren’t you in any way ashamed of being part of that echo chamber?
That you have the nuts to then come on here and claim you echoed Rove’s smear of Michael Moore because you’re trying to help out the Democrats is laughable.
You truly are no better than them.
moflicky
I agree, but if a major media personality made such a comment, I highly doubt that Republicans would not come to his defense and call for the head of whoever made the commment.
Wrong. Robertson has been roundly, consistantly and rightly criticized from all corners of the media over the myriad stupid and ignorant things he’s said lately.
I know of no nationally prominant media personality or politician who has come to Robertson’s defense.
I could be wrong. If you know of one, name him. And I’ll call him stupid and ignorant as well.
moflicky
Paddy, paddy, paddy.
pity poor mickey moore, blacklisted and kept from earning a living because of those red-baiting republicans who have driven him from the public eye and can’t show his face for the shame of it all.
You really need to get a clue as to what McCarthyism is really all about.
Don’t cry for moore, he’ll be fatter and richer and he’ll still get a prime seat at the ’08 democrat convention.
OCSteve
Agreed. My point is that if “enemy number one” is parroting the main talking points of your party, you need to take a long hard look at where you are headed. (Cliff, over)
This Republic needs an opposition party. They just need to regain some sanity and get over BDS. Tell me your plan for stabilizing Iraq and withdrawing American troops in a reasonable and responsible way. Tell me how you plan to handle Iran. Give me a candidate I can vote for – not sKerry, not the HildaBeast.
VidaLoca
John,
Maybe I’m misinterpreting you but if I’m not then I’m confused by what you seem to be saying. You’ve written quite a few posts that make it sound like you’re thoroughly angry with the mismanagement and corruption of the people currently running your Party (and our country) into the ground. You seem to think that it would be better if that gang were driven out of power, and so do I. But how’s that ever going to happen, without some people getting out in front and taking the lead?
There’s no sense waiting for the Democrats to do any leading of anyone, they can barely find their ass with both hands. So into that vacuum step people like Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan, and the small gang of bloggers that are raising hell over Chris Matthews’ comparison of Moore to Osama. Well, somebody has to organize the fightback somehow or nothing’s going to change; they’re putting in a lot of time and taking some risks. And furthermore, what he said is fundamentally dishonest, it should be criticized.
What I don’t get is, why do you disparage that (I’m speaking here of the “absurd non-scandal” comment above)?
I’d think you’d want to stand up more for people who objectively want a lot of the same things you do (no offense intended :) ).
Paddy O'Shea
Pinocchio Mo: Yeah, it was tough for Moore for a while. Having Disney knuckle under to the Bushcists and refuse to have have anything to do with the F451 despite firm contractual obligations did set things back a bit. But fortunately creative independent distribution coupled with the desire of millions of Americans to see the movie that caused so many folks of your ilk to soil themselves helped overcome all that, and democracy won out.
jg
Ammo for the enemy? So anti-war folks shouldn’t speak out about what they feel because OBL might also say it in a tape message? OBL saying it makes it no longer true? Are you people that gullible that you’ll disregard facts if the right people spin them away for you?
If thats all Rove needs to keep you on the right you have issues. Is Kerry wrong about what he’s saying or do you only care about the angle you can view it from and stay on the right? Why can’t you blog about the issue instead of pointing out how Rove will play it which is pretty much doing his work for him anyway?
Do you agree with OCSteve that Dems no longer can speak about the issues they feel are important to this anti-war debate because OBL did a DougJ and queered the thread? Any chance OBL is doing this because he also prefers a republican majority? I know its hard for the right to see this since the rights in charge and the right is tougher so therefore OBL would rather a left establishment because hes sooooo scared right now. Maybe a right leaning gov’t is doing what he wants, looking under veils and kicking down mosque doors in the middle east. I can’t imagine that someone who wants to lead a massive revolution in the middle east would want any outside help stirring up the peeps. Especially if that help was inadvertantly provided by the very people he wants th rabble pissed at. No chance right? He’s scared and wants a pussy dem in charge so we’ll all go home and he can start all over.
Any chance that we are being played and lead to a collapse in the same way that we played the Soviet Union?
OCSteve
Yup. Anyone here that would allow their daughter to be an intern for either side of the aisle?
Zifnab
But they don’t. For a number of reasons. At least at the moment, Democrats can cling to the high ground of political rhetoric. When Democrats speak, they have a flimsy shread of credibility.
But even if the Dems did come out swinging for the fences, no one would care. They’d be called Dan Rather-esque liars. They’d be tarred and feathered by the media. Every right wing pundit would have a field day denouncing the lies of the left, so carefully and painstakingly documented. The Dems would be lucky if they even got the messages to the airwaves.
Republicans control the media. Period. They control the talking points. They control the rhetoric. They control the vertical and the horizontal. It’s like the freak’n Twilight Zone.
Zifnab
$8 trillion in the red? A jobless economy? Failing education? Fundamentalist government? Corruption so thick you can cut it with a knife?
Could be.
OCSteve
Speak out on facts, not what you “feel”. I won’t go into the definition of “lie”, it’s been done to death. Or Halliburton, point me to other companies that could do the job. Oil – why is my gas approaching $3 again rather than some of that good $1.50 stolen Iraqi oil?
What I am saying is that your side has come up with these absurd and unfounded charges. The MSM has carried a lot of your water. Now, OBL is parroting DNC/Kos/Atrios/Moore talking points.
Is that where you want to be? Show me your “facts”.
LaurenceB
In my opinion, there’s entirely too much outrage being spent on what people say, rather than what people do.
Hillary said… Bob Bennett said… Kos said… Trent Lott said… Michael Moore said… Chris Mathews said… Pat Robertson said…
Mind you, I don’t have any problem with objecting to truly nasty speech – and I’m willing to register a mild objection to Wallace’s – But does it really so important that we need to summon all of our indignation for every single instance of spoken stupidity?
Personally, I’m going to save most of my indignation for actual acts, rather than words. For example, I am genuinely outraged that this Adminstration argues that it can lock up American citizens without charges, indefinitely, in violation of several of the principles upon with this country was founded. Whatever stupid thing Chris Wallace has to say bothers me quite a bit less than that.
OCSteve
You’ll have to provide some examples of that. Gore’s rhetoric, and the fact that he is not in GitMo pretty much argue against the whole police state thing.
ppGaz
You, OCS? How about Dick Cheney?
Health problems? Okay.
How about JD “I Never Met a GOP Talking Point I Didn’t Like” Hayworth?
Just trying to help you out. Because, you know, you are so sincere and everything.
Zifnab
The problem is that what we say and what we do are inevitably linked. When Bush locks up a few hundred Muslims in Gitmo for indefinate periods of time, and then Chris Matthews gets on national television defending the actions we have a problem. When DeLay accepts millions in bribes for his control over the House and FOX News decides to tear down the prosecutor in charge of handling the charges, we have a problem.
When people lie. We have a problem. We have a serious problem when people Swift Boat for Truth because the lies people say enable the crimes people do. Speech comes first. Sin comes after. If you allow pundits to ruthlessly trash the landscape of discourse, you open the door for abuses of our freedoms, our properties, and our persons by those politicians that the pundits represent.
ppGaz
Excuse me? You need fucking examples to believe that this government can, will, and is locking up people without due process?
You’re just funnin’ us today, right?
ppGaz
Okay. The country was led to war on the fear of a WMD threat that wasn’t there.
So you have a government that is either criminally negligent, or criminally dishonest.
Which is it?
Sojourner
The righties are idiots. They can’t even begin to grasp the fact that Bush is doing exactly what Bin Laden wants him to do.
How best to continue the trend? Publicly come out on the side of Bush’s opponents so the American people will feel obliged to support this president whose poll numbers are tumbling.
It really is a brilliant strategy and much cheaper than blowing things up. Encourage the American people to support a policy that will bankrupt the U.S. just as Afghanistan bankrupted the Soviet Union.
Then sit back and laugh your ass off at the most powerful country in the world which just happens to be too stupid to understand how it’s being manipulated.
ppGaz
Exactly. But you must say, doing a damned fine job of it!
Anyway, I have to take a break here. On SpeedChannel, which is doing its all-day coverage of the Barrett-Jackson Auto Auction, a 2007 Ford Shelby GT500 is going to go across the auction block in about 15-20 minutes, and I need to get my comfy chair plumped up and my beer and chips in hand. Saw this car at the auction last weekend … the car of my dreams.
Maybe next year I’ll buy one, and I’ll put a sticker on the back: George Bush and Bin Laden — Kiss My Ass.
OCSteve
Hey ppGaz:
I figured you would get to me eventually :)
Naw, too old, too many health problems.
Where am I not sincere? I say offer me an alternative to the fringe left I can live with and you say this…
Please provide some examples and I might take you seriously…
Plenty was there. The goal posts where moved to “stockpiles”. I firmly believe those stockpiles went to Syria, transported by Russian Spetsnaz. We’ll see.
Pooh
John,
You say ‘bad politics’, I say if that’s true, what’s the point? If the left can’t call the right on its ridiculousness but the right feels free to do the same (using an ever more expansive definition of ‘ridiculousness,’ I might add. Mama Alito cried you know…), then it’s a no win situation. At a certain point you have to stand up to a bully. Unfortunately for Kerry, he’s about 14 months too late in doing so.
ppGaz
Jesus, man. Obviously you are just spoofing, but try to get in the ballpark where credulity is not stretched to the breaking point.
You are still going to pimp Iraqi WMDs here? Seriously? Because I will gladly hang that around your neck for you, like jewelry, for all to see here. Like an Olympic medal. You’ll wear it proudly. And never be taken seriously around here again.
Still pimping the WMDs. Shit, even Bush gave that up two years ago.
Jcricket
OBLs agenda is the destruction of America, and to claim that because he superficially uses the words of someone on the left or right, that the left or right wants to destroy America is just absurd BS. Although it’s not shocking that Rove, Gibson, etc. use this type of tactic. They can barely get the word Democrat out of their mouth without screaming terrorist. If OBL started using the language of evolution to justify his terror, you can bet Rove would start equating support of evolution with support of OBL.
We had this debate about a year ago (on this blog) and it’s pointless. OBL is a terrorist, the only thing he cares about is advancing his agenda and/or pissing us off. He’s not reading from DNC or RNC talking points because he’s a Democrat or Republican.
His terrorist ideology is bankrupt, so let’s just capture the guy and dismantle Al Queda and stop this BS. Perhaps the party in charge of the entire FUCKING country could get their act together and do this.
Zifnab
That’s where we are though. As things stand, simply “speaking out” doesn’t work. When everything you say gets filtered through the Republican Lens of Truth, statements by Democrats are either deliberately misinterpreted, smeared, or ignored.
StupidityRules
OCSteve said:
Hmmm… wonder what would happen if Bin Laden, just for fun, in his next speech talked about that Social Security should be privatized, how gays never should be allowed to marry each other, and that you shouldn’t try to find other sources of energy than oil.
Could be a hoot.
ppGaz
Coming up: Lot number 1259.1 in the Barrett-Jackson auction list. SpeedChannel, live. This car is a beast, downrated at 475 hp for insurance (in other words, marketing) reasons. Somewhere around 525 true hp as it comes off the truck from the factory. And as beautiful at is fast.
And later on today, cars will go over the ramp for a million bucks and up .. possibly $4-5m plus for at least one vehicle on the today’s list.
ppGaz
LMAO.
The GOP would send him out to raise funds.
Pooh
Sure. But that’s why John’s dismissiveness on the subject rankles me. They aren’t going to stop until the mighty middle (of which John is a member) tells them to stop with the bullshit instead of tut-tutting Democrats for ‘poor tactics’.
OCSteve
I try not to pimp anything. Just saying that the jury is still out, there is a very real possibility that the “stockpiles” you demand as proof will still come out some day. The story of this war will not be known in full for years.
Saying “Bush lied” is BS. If you want to revise that to say “Bush relied on intelligence assessments that turned out to be (possibly) wrong” I’m there with you.
Pooh
I too like kool-aid
ppGaz
Oh god, I just saw the Shelby coming up the ready lane. Running late. Sometime in the next 30 mins, I reckon.
OCS, why would I tout my car-lover hobby here?
Look at it this way: If your Spud government can’t even win over the muscle-car and NASCAR crowd, where are they headed?
(Besides, this sort of thing works for Stormy).
ppGaz
ARRRGGHHHHHH.
That’s right, and we are still looking for the real killer of Nicole, too.
Steve, there are only a few things these putzes have to get right. One of them is “where are the real threats to the United States, and what is the true nature of those threats.” If they can’t get that right, why wouldn’t they do the honorable thing and RESIGN IMMEDIATELY?
In the real world, you can’t be that incompetant and not get your ass fired.
Geek, Esq.
When Michael Moore is the most balanced and reasonable voice in a discussion, shame on everyone else involved.
ppGaz
My baby is the next car up. Right after the Sammy Hagar car.
OCSteve
All I can say, even if it brings you horror, is that the difference between you and I is not so vast. Given the opportunity, I would love to sit and have a beer (or 6) with you and talk trash.
I think most folks could hash out their differences over a few beers. That is why I like Tim and Friday Beer blogging. Great addition John.
Anyway, good health and happiness to you and yours.
LaurenceB
OCSteve,
I’m not sure how it could be possible, but it sounded like you were unaware of the case of Jose Padilla, who is an American citizen, and who the Administration has argued can be held indefinitely, without formal charges, access to a lawyer, etc., in violation of any number of Constitutional principles.
This is a fairly famous case, and you can find plenty of information on it with a simple google search if you’re interested. (Maybe you were just kidding. I’m not sure.)
ppGaz
Same to you Steve. Now, my car is up. I must go and be envious.
Pb
OCSteve,
That’s a start, I suppose. How about this. What has Bush said or done in the past five years that has turned out to be on the level, and what would give him the credibility to convince me that he’s not lying, or the plausible deniability to convince me that he’s been ignorant of what *his administration* has been doing all this time?
LaurenceB
Zifnab,
Your point is well taken. I was indeed outraged at the Smear Boat Vets. Speech does indeed spur actions – and that strikes me as a valid reason to object to this kind of thing.
As I said before – I do object to what Mathews has said – I’m just having a hard time mustering up every last ounce of moral outrage for this one.
Pb
Yawn. The Moore-Osama smear is like *so* 2003.
Pb
LaurenceB,
Let me help you out a bit.
Because of your political views, you’re no different from a terrorist killer. In fact, you *are* a terrorist killer, personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of American citizens. And we’re going to tell every American just that, live on TV.
Outraged yet?
ppGaz
Whooeee. Sold! for $600k. Okay, I guess you should all know ….the high bidder was NOT me.
But that car, and the money to charity …. a worthy use of your $600k in fun money if you ask me.
—/
You know why OBL will never defeat the United States of America? Just watch the Barrett-Jackson car auction today, and you’ll know why. This country is too … everything. Too good, too rich, too much, too crazy.
People who drive Shelby GT500’s are not going to live in fear of some sumbitch who lives in a frigging cave. Sorry, thanks for playing.
So get these fear-mongering dirtbags outta my White House and give me my country back, please.
The Other Steve
Apparently John thinks the only reason Bush let Osama escape was so that he’d have a drum to beat come election day.
Personally I just thought it was incompetence. But I guess Karl Rove is involved in a dastardly conspiracy.
The Other Steve
And can someone please point me to where John Kerry mentions Michael Moore?
Thank you
Ancient Purple
Criticism, yes. But compare that to the swiftboating that Murtha is getting simply because he believes it is time to start bringing the troops home.
Robertson could say that women who get abortions should be beaten by men, gays should be publicly executed, and blacks deserved slavery and he would get some criticism and people in his own circles would shake their heads and say, “Oh, that Pat.” Then, they would pander to his base for votes.
Robertson always gets a pass. Always.
The Other Steve
I agree completely.
Bush purposefully relied on intelligence assessments that turned out to be wrong.
But it’s not lying.
It’s just willfull truthiness.
ppGaz
I don’t think it’s ever been said better in these parts.
If Michael Moore stooped to the level of Robertson, they’d be trying to string him up from a tree.
Pb
The Other Steve,
Kerry never mentioned Michael Moore by name; I think he refers to him as an “anti-war activist” or some such. Kerry was smart enough to avoid a direct GOP sound bite/quote (“I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”) this time, so when the attack ads pop up, Democrats will only have to contend with the accusing voice-over and deceptive image montage–he’s learning.
OCSteve
Look. All I am saying is give me an alternative. Allow me the premise that terrorism is my greatest concern. GWB has not been perfect by a long shot, but I don’t see anything better on the horizon. I don’t agree with this administration on about 75% of their platform. That Predator attack that took out several al Qaeda including a big bomb maker? Sweet. Medicare part D – please.
People – give me a viable alternative that is not calling for cut-n-run in Iraq and has a plan for Iran. That is all I ask.
OCSteve
Sorry. A gang member, enemy combatant, indicted on charges he “conspired to murder, kidnap and maim people overseas”, gets zero sympathy from me. You want to play at being a terrorist? Fine. Same penalty.
LaurenceB
OCSteve,
If you feel that way, that’s fine. But don’t play stupid the next time someone points out that the Administration has indeed argued in favor of detaining American citizens indefinitely, without charges, access to a lawyer, etc., in violation of any number of Constitutional principles.
You and I are now in agreement that that is a true statement. Right?
ppGaz
Steve, it isn’t about some guy with a walnut-sized brain being a terrorist.
It’s about another guy, also with a walnut-sized brain, acting like a petulant king.
Which of those two do you think represents the biggest threat to your freedom, in the big picture?
Padilla? Not to me. He’s just another sociopathic punk. World’s full of ’em.
Bush? Yes, him. He’s the threat. He’s the one who can really fuck up the country.
That’s where your adversaries are coming from … and they’re right.
Pb
OCSteve,
Where should I begin. Murtha’s plan wasn’t even a “cut-n-run in Iraq” plan, but you wouldn’t know it from the phony Republican “cut-n-run in Iraq” resolution that Republicans falsely characterized as his plan. Kerry had a plan for dealing with Iran in 2004, but you wouldn’t know it from the swift boaters out there. My advice to you is the same I’d give to anyone–keep your ears open, and watch the company you keep closely.
Pb
OCSteve,
That’s your position? Gang member, enemy combatant, whatever? Man, if we’re going to lock up any gang member indefinitely on the same evidentiary standard (not) shown in the Padilla case, we’ll have to build some more military prisons. And maybe at some point we should formally amend the Constitution to eliminate those pesky trial rights that used to be the bedrock of our judicial system.
Angry Engineer
The administration’s failure to track down OBL and its subsequent spinning of that to smear the opposition is an “absurd non-scandal”?
There’s a lot of absurdity in this whole story, from OBL’s peace offering to Kerry’s post on dKos (who woulda thunk that would happen?) to the fact that Rove will somehow get away with claiming that his side is seeing things through this supposedly superior “post-9/11 worldview” when in reality they’re mortgaging our country’s future for the sake of the party. Most absurd, though, is that Matthews is on prime-time TV, when in reality he doesn’t even deserve the overnight spot on a rural AM station.
The Other Steve
So it’s your position that the Iraqis shouldn’t be allowed to fight and defend themselves? That the US should continue indefinately to be their defense force?
Fascinating, and this is going to help US security in what way?
Why is it the Republican answer always ends up making us less safe?
LaurenceB
OCSteve is quite clear that he believes that if you’re a former gang member, you have no right to defend yourself in a court of law. Amazing.
Even more amazing – Until recently, he did not believe that the Bush Administration was engaged in trying to deny American citizens their Constitutional rights. That’s quite incredible, considering the press the Padilla has gotten.
Pb
Angry Engineer,
Apparently “post 9/11 worldview” is code for having an (allegedly benevolent) dictator/executive branch, as opposed to the pre-9/11 worldview–the original three co-equal branches of government.
Digital Amish
I think the GOP has found that OBL is to their foriegn policy what abortion is to its domestic policy – a convenient boogeyman with which to fire up the rubes when they need the votes. So convenient, in fact, that to actually do anything about him would be counter-productive.
Angry Engineer
And let’s not forget the part where we choose to attack somewhat obscure social commentators with more energy and vigor than we pursue the mistakes that have been made along the way.
DougJ
All right, I hate to rain on everyone’s good time here, but we’ve got a serious problem: some of us are spelling Osama with a “U”, others with the more traditional “O”. Which is it? Let’s agree — and then let’s all stick to the standard we agree on. I’m willing to put aside my personal preference for “O” if it means greater unity for us as a group.
No wonder Islamic fundamentalists view as weak and divided: we can’t even agree on how to spell their names.
Dave Schuler
You’re completely missing the significance of this story. It wasn’t Pat Robertson, Karl Rove, or some Republican robot making the comparison. It was Chris Matthews, a center-left Democrat of impeccable credentials.
For goodness sake, he was Tip O’Neill’s top aide for six years.
This isn’t partisan politics. This is internecine warfare.
DougJ
Oh, Dave! You’re never going to get us to read your blog making stupid comments like that.
Jcricket
Funny. I think Rove’s comment is accurate, in a sense. Republicans believe that 9/11 eliminated the Bill of Rights, Constitution, Separation of Powers and the need for Republicans to follow the law. A single (albeit huge) terrorist attack on America was enough to do what the civil War, the two world wars and living for 40 years with the possibility of nuclear annihilation during the Cold War could not.
Turn us into a nation of cowards (at least according to Republicans). Republicans have clearly been so frightened out of their minds by 9/11 that they’re willing to give away literally any freedom, any liberty, and excuse any law breaking and/or un-American behavior (torture, indefinite detention) if it’s theoretically possible that it will help make progress in the war on terror. They don’t even care whether it’s working or not. Whether we’re capturing/killing more terrorists than we’re creating. Whether pissing off the rest of the world is going to hurt our ability to find terrorists outside the US, etc.
That fear combined with the whole “it’ll never happen to me since I’m not a terrorist so I don’t care about all those legal protections being broken” is pathetic. How Libertarians can side with these people is absolutely beyond me.
I lived 9/11 more closely than a lot of people like Rove. I have close relatives who worked in the Operations department at the WTC, and others who work on Wall St. They were there on 9/11. Some of them are only alive because they were having brunch on the main floor of the WTC when the planes hit. Large numbers of people they worked with are now dead because they stayed in the building to help the other occupants. The spouses of these relatives spent almost a day wondering whether their spouse was alive.
The “post 9/11 mindset” those people operate under hasn’t caused them to turn in their ACLU membership cards. It hasn’t caused them to vote for Republicans. And they don’t believe the war in Iraq is helping the war on terror (or had anything to do with 9/11). And they certainly don’t believe that the left and OBL have anything in common.
We’re all operating in a post 9/11 world. It just means different things to Republicans.
Sock Puppet
Osama bin Laden has been dead for years. You people do know this, right?
But rather than make a big deal about it, Karl Rove quietly took over the name and gave it to his sock puppet.
Whenever Karl feels the need to alter the national debate a little bit, he pulls out his sock Osama and makes him say evil scary things.
“You’re all going to die! America will feel the wrath of Allah! I am Iron man!”
Then Karl pulls Osama off his hand and returns him to a very special place in the back of his underwear drawer.
I happen to be very well situated to know this.
You see, we used to be a pair.
Pb
Sock Puppet,
You sure it wasn’t Dick Cheney? :)
VidaLoca
OCSteve,
OK I’ll give it a try.
First, on Iraq. Back when it all started I was willing to believe that maybe Saddam had somehow mangaged to cobble some kind of WMD’s together even in the face of the sanctions that were in place at the time. I quit beliving that when he didn’t use them on our troops. Then I believed the “you broke it, you bought it” line of “moral responsibility” for a while — but now we’re what, four years into this thing and while we may have bought it it’s pretty clear that we can’t do a damn thing with it.
After all the mistakes we’ve made, the biggest was to think we actually knew enough about that place to be able to occupy and run it successfully with the resources we were willing to commit. We can’t, and we won’t. We don’t have much more in the way of resources to commit, and in any case the result of committing them is doubtful. The only viable alternative is the simple one: to leave. Because among the totality of choices that we’ve closed off to ourselves by our previous blunders, that’s the only one left. And the thing is, sooner or later we’ll have to do that anyway because the only alternative is to sit around and get shot at while the Iraquis merrily get going with the civil war that they’ve been waiting to have ever since the Brits put that country together back in the 1920’s.
Saddam’s in the slammer, they’ve had all the elections they need and more. Now we put the most remote troops and their gear on the trucks, and drive back up the road to the next most remote, and so on until the last one is out: and however long it takes to do it while getting the fewest number of people shot up, that’s how long it takes.
Now as I understand it that’s essentially Murtha’s plan (although I think he has some idea about staying around in some bases around the margins, the purpose of which I’m unclear on). I think the Republicans call it “cutting and running”. I’m not sure what you call it — I call it doing what you’ll be doing one day soon anyhow in a way that minimizes losses while you’re doing it, but whatever. Way I see it, it’s the only plan that has a chance of working anymore.
Now about Iran. I don’t have a plan. FWIW I read a good discussion of the topic over at Obsidian Wings the other night (Tuesday? Wednesday?). Anyhow I thought it was informative, and dominated by people who were sincerely trying to figure out some answers rather than just shouting at one another. My first take is that I don’t think the Iranians are crazy for wanting nukes — it’s a pretty crazy part of the world over there right now, they’re surrounded by countries that would love to do ’em in. I don’t have much enthusiasm for the sanctions idea just because while it sounds great on paper to cut off their oil sales, we can’t buy as much as they can’t sell, and neither can anyone else — in other words it seems to me like all the other oil consumers will be racing to break the sanctions.
Anyhow, both sanctions and military intervention tend to unite the people there who’d be most likely to support us (or if not support us, at least support the idea of not going forward with developing nuclear weapons) with the people who actively oppose us.
You said to allow you the premise that terrorism is your greatest concern. Mine too. So this time, just for the novelty of it all, I’m for thinking long and hard before we do something reckless that has a high probability both of failure, and of making that part of the world even crazier than it already is.
ppGaz
Steve, this is my Iran plan:
a) Bomb their nuclear facility down to a crater
b) Hire the guys who just bid each other up to $1.15m for a Chevelle on the Barrett-Jackson auction to put together a team to go in and turn Iran into a Del Webb retirement community.
This is a great country, Steve. It’s just that’s its being run by trailer park escapees.
Sock Puppet
Pb: You don’t really believe anything you read on THAT site, do you?
It most definitely Karl Rove that controls the Osama sock. Cheney’s ticker couldn’t handle that level of excitement.
Though sometimes Karl does let him touch it.
demimondian
Sock Puppet — King Friday the Thirteenth called. He wants Fred Rogers back.
Ancient Purple
I just consulted my copy of the U.S. Constitution and can’t find the “exception clause” that says that American citizens are afforded all the rights under the Constitution and the law, except if they are:
1. A gang member.
2. An enemy combatant.
3. Indicted on murder, kidnapping and maming charges.
4. Playing a terrorist.
Perhaps you could enlighten us on where these are “exceptions” are found, Steve.
In order to be helpful, here is a link to a copy of the U.S. Constitution.
Davebo
Sock Puppet
Gagging on Karl Rove and loving it?
Gentlemen, I think we now have a positive ID on Shallow Throat.
Darrell
This is a classic example of why the left is so dangerous. First of all, with their arch-enemy Saddam out of power and relatively friendly Shiites in control of Iraq, Iran has no serious enemies except for those they themselves create with aggressive threats. Which country would love ‘to do Iran in’ since you said they were “surrounded” by countries who would love to destroy them?.. with the exception of Israel which is justifiably concerned that Iran is aggressively threatening to ‘wipe them off the map’.
Of course Iran is not the one being threatened, but so many on the left are so ignorant, they make excuses for Iran, and they minimize the true danger of a nuclear armed Iran under wild-eyed mullah control. And make no mistake, Iran is itching for martyrdom with Iran’s President Ahmadinejad talking about the need “pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam” coupled with his threats to destroy Israel. Iran is probably the gravest threat we face at this time, but the left seems to be trying to paralyze us from acting, minimizing and mocking the threat Iran poses
Yes, we can see you already making excuses for Iran (“I don’t blame them” blah, blah) and minimizing their threat. Tell us then, what is your plan, or the plan from anyone on the left to deal with Iran? And standing around with your thumb up your ass screaming “Bush lied people died” doesn’t count as a plan
ppGaz
Standing around and screaming this same shit every day doesn’t count as having something to say, either, Darrell.
What’s your fucking “plan for Iran?”
tb
Like he’s not going to attack no matter what we do. What do you suggest we do when our people are basically accused of burning the Reichstag? Lie down and take it? You’ll pardon us if we don’t rush to adopt this “supplicating bitch” strategy of yours.
What’s with these Republicans who think we give a shit about their strategy advice? Their party is rotting apart like last year’s roadkill and they want to help us get our act together.
ppGaz
These are the guys who haven’t been right about anything having to do with Iraq, for at least 25 years.
Now we’re supposed to get their approval on a “plan” for something in the Middle East?
Tell ’em to Go F__K Themselves.
Darrell
The mullahs are entrenched. Assuming their continued uncooperation with the UN and aggressive moves to go nuclear, I see no reasonable alternative option except to attack them and at a minimum destroy their power and oil infrastructure. We may have to follow that up with some sort of ground invasion.
That scenario will of course play hell with oil prices, but it’s better than the alternative.
Bob In Pacifica
John Cole is a communications professor? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
DougJ
A few weeks ago, a man who represents a grave threat to this country emerged from hiding to offer angry words aimed at the American people. This is a man who hates our way of life, a man who many thought was dead, a man who would like to destroy American society as we know it and will stop at nothing to attain this goal.
The worst part is, he’s the vice-president of the country.
ppGaz
The mullahs are entrenched. Assuming their continued
You’re fired. Their nuclear capability is made up of infrastructure at probably a very few locations. Why not bomb it down to a crater? (The ppGaz plan, upthread). End of nuclear threat.
Takes exactly one day to take them from “nuclear threat” to “smoking crater.”
What’s all that other shit about oil, and invasions?
What the hell does that accomplish? Another occupation and billion-a-week boondoggle?
Do you really think that this country is prepared to invade Iran? It won’t be a pushover like Iraq was, idiot.
And an occupation there? Iraq will look like your local goofy golf course by comparison.
DougJ
I see Dave Shuler is peddling the same shit over at The Moderate Voice. He thinks that “Chris Matthews used to be Democrat” is the genius insight that will attract thousands of hits to his site — which admittedly does contain what looks like a credible recipe for Potato Leek Soup.
The more I think about it, the more I pray that a huge meteor strikes the earth and puts an end to all of this.
I hope Dick Cheney isn’t reading this.
ppGaz
No, he’s over here
VidaLoca
Darrell,
If I were an Iranian, Israel is the first place I’d be worried about. Followed closely by the US, and the Saudis not far behind. Pakistan probably rates in there too. You may think that Israel’s concerns are justifiable, but it’s not surprising to me that the Iranians might look at it differently.
Well, of course not. That “axis of evil” talk was just for domestic consumption, no threat there. Nobody’d think that that could lead to an invasion or something.
“Iran is itching for martyrdom”? Just because of something their president said? You think that conclusively proves that everyone over there just wants to up and kill themselves? They’re all 100% solid behind this plan?
But I will grant you the hypothesis that there possibly are people in Iran who are “itching for martyrdom” in the sense that they’d rather start a war in someone else’s country sooner, than fight one in their own country later. It’s reasonable to me that such people might exist over there, since they also exist over here.
Well, enough of a threat to be concerned about. Now, what to do about it? Like I said up above, I don’t have a plan. Diplomatically, I think our credibility amounts to squat. Militarily… well we can see how that all turned out, in a situation much less daunting than we’ll be looking at in Iran. Sanctions? Not persuasive, and mixed results historically.
But as far as “threats” go — I’m not willing to be stampeded into a panic about Iran because we just saw what happened when we got stampeded into a panic about Iraq. And don’t tell me that this time the government knows what it’s doing. Way too much water over the dam for that.
DougJ
This may be the dumbest thing anyone has ever said on this blog.
ppGaz
“Light up Palestine — all the good people have left.”
— Stormy
VidaLoca
ppGaz–
The problem with this is, it may already be too late. I can’t remember where I was reading this, it may have been in some points that demimondian was making here a couple of days ago, or it may be in the ObWings discussion/comments here.
(look for Jan. 14, “you wanna know why?”).
Anyhow, as I understand it, at the early stage of the process getting enough enriched uranium to make a bomb takes a chain of centrifuges that separate out U235 from U238. And you’re right, that’s big infrastructure so hence vulnerable. Deal is, after you spin those centrifuges for a while you end up with a chunk of enriched uranium metal, and it only takes a few pounds of that stuff to make a bomb. There’s still the issue of building the bomb itself and the trigger mechanism but that’s machine-shop stuff, no big infrastructure required.
So, have they gotten to the point of having that few pounds of metal? If they have we can bomb the centrifuges until hell freezes for all the good it’ll do us.
Ancient Purple
So, that will put American troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran. Brilliant.
If a ground invasion does happen, there will be no way the U.S. could avoid instituting a draft.
That would be on top of pulling all of the Reserves and National Guardsmen into combat, raising the recruitment age to 50, and suddenly discovering that gays and lesbians can be warriors, too.
Ancient Purple
VL, do you know of any time frame on when Iran will have a working bomb? Last I heard on some news shows, the timeline was about 4-5 years from this point.
demimondian
Vida, ppG — it was me. If things have gotten as far as they are portrayed, it’s too late for the “put a hole where things used to be” strategy.
Bob In Pacifica
DougJ, are you the same DougJ who ripped the WaPo omsbudsman? If so, congrats.
VidaLoca
Ancient Purple —
No, the little I know about this topic comes from the ObWings stuff I was reading, and demimondian’s comments the other day. If demi’s right and they’ve got that metal, I’d think that 4-5 years would be the far end of enough time to make a nuclear bomb. And for a “dirty bomb”, I’d think less.
There’s much about it that’s secret any more, and it ain’t like it’s rocket science…
Demi, could you source some of that stuff for us? The presentation you were making seemed pretty knowledgeable to me.
Frank
I’m just posting to correct a few misconceptions that seem to be going around here. 1. The thought that Iran only has a few nuclear sites. The Iranians saw what happened to the Iraqi nuclear program when the Israeli Air Force bombed it out of existance. The Iranian program is dispersed to a dozen or more locations, many underground, some located in major population centers. There is no way to bomb it out of existance without killing thousands.
2 That the Iranians have no valid reason to be concerned. If you take a look at a map you will find that there are US forces on every one of Iran’s borders. They would have to be crazy or stupid to give up their nuclear program. Some would claim it would make sense if the US offered a security guaranty, but there is no security guaranty the US can offer given that the legal doctrine of the Bush administration is that the President can set aside any treaty at will as part of his inherant powers as Commander in Chief.
Sojourner
With what military?
This is the same delusional thinking that got us into Iraq. Now notice that our options are a hell of a lot more limited because we’re running low on troops and money.
Hell of a job, W!
Pooh
I think 4-5 years is a VERY conservative estimate if they have the fissionable material.
ppGaz
In that case … their “chunks of fissionable material” join what I understand are any other such chunks, some weaponized and some actually made into weapons, that are out there in circulation. Rogue nukes.
This being the case, what exactly would we be doing by starting a war with Iran? Would that give us control over the rogue nukes?
VidaLoca
Well, in a certain sense it would — for one thing, we’d know right where those rogue nukes are, or at least where they were.
Right under those funny-looking mushroom-shaped clouds…
It’s an unusual approach to disarmament, but hey, once the other guys’s bombs are all gone, he’s disarmed. Everything’s changed after 9/11.
ppGaz
Okay … if we know where we are, we can bomb the sites preemptively and they go away.
If we don’t know where they are, then …. what good does an invasion do? The nukes could be moved, and we’d be the proud owner of another snarled insurgency and still wouldn’t have the nukes under our control.
So … ?
ppGaz
Sorry — “if we we know where they are “
DougJ
God damn it, that is good. It’s almost too good. I’m starting to wonder about the Stormster.
I posted some sarcasm over there, but I don’t know if that qualifies as ripping. I think it has been quite a while since someone ripped Deborah Howell.
RonB
I have found WINGNUT GOLD. Run, don’t walk over to Winds of Change:
THE CASE FOR INVADING IRAN
DougJ, lefty bloggers, don’t miss your chance at the most amazing collection of insanity I’ve yet seen regarding options on Iran. Pass this around like crazy. I’m serious, you won’t regret looking at this.
My lame attempt at fisking it is here and here.
DougJ
Thanks, Ron. That looks good.
ppGaz
Well, in her defense, it was a long time ago, and she has sorta kinda backed away from it a little bit.
It was one of those things one says in haste and then reconsiders later.
ppGaz
Yeah, guess who shows up in the comments?
Our very own TallDave.
Oh my.
DougJ
You know, ppgaz, I’ve always liked Stormy. So I’m willing to go head-to-head with “light up Palestine” with this nugget of military wisdom from TallDave
Because if the Iraq cakewalk had taught us anything, it’s that all you have to do is change the leadership of a country and everything else will just fall into place.
RonB
I saw that!
DougJ
This one is good too, from a character by the name of M. Simon (Roger’s brother?):
There is no way I could ever come up with shit this crazy. Modeling our policy on the Nazis.
Ron, where did you find this?
DougJ
So good in so many ways. It’s a masterpiece. First, the idea that the we should consider the fact that Iranian bloggers thought we should invade. When I need military advice, the first place I turn is to the bloggers in the country we’re thinking of invading. Who would know better. really?
RonB
I’m trying to remember. One of two ways…thumbing thru some links at The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler(I’m on friendly terms with the owner) or found it doing a Technorati search. I’ll retrace my steps and see if I can tell you for sure.
ppGaz
Yes, TDave is one of a kind. His “the media lost the Vietnam war” and “Iraq is a lot like Colonial America” soirees into insanity caused my head to spin so bad, I still have a crick in my neck.
But I read the whole Holsinger thread …. and those people over there are absolutely fucking crazy. They have imagined themselves, and us, into this perma-mega-war that as near as I can tell has no end to it. It’s basically Oceania versus Eastasia, only …. uglier.
Madness. Really, we are going to have to take this country back from the madmen, or risk losing everything.
RonB
Hey, why not, we relied on dissident expats for our last trip…
DougJ
You know, it’s funny, because when I troll, I think there’s certain things I just can’t do without getting caught. Number one is advocating that we follow the example of Hitler or Stalin. And those whackos bust that out like it was nothing.
The Disenfranchised Voter
The lack of sufficient ground troops in Afghanistan and diverting our attention to Iraq did allow OBL to escape Tora Bora.
This is already a well established fact.
Pooh
Ron, DougJ, et al,
I saw that too, and then decided to bang my head against a wall for 10 minutes instead of reading the comments in full, as I thought it would be a more efficient use of both time and brain cells.
Amba of AmbivaBlog looked into the ravening abyss, and recoiled in horror:
demimondian
The best introductory volume for the lay reader is, to my mind, The Making of the Atomic Bomb, by Richard Rhodes. It’s not terribly technical, and it gives a really good historical view.
Fledermaus
And let me guess, the oil revenues will pay for the whole thing.
StupidityRules
Some of them are really bat shit crazy…
On the other hand, I always wondered what nuclear winter would be like…
Pooh
And we’ll be greeted with sweets and flowers/
DougJ
It’s quite remarkable and it confirms what I’ve thought for a while: that a certain wing of the Republican party has gone completely off the tracks. It’s amazing to me that Michael Moore (who presents mainstream socialist views, albeit with a certain amount of dishonesty at times) and Howard Dean (who isn’t even all that liberal) get branded as extremist when there’s a large segment of the right-wing that believes we should take all comers in some kind of United-States-versus the-world steel cage grudge match.
What will later generations think of us? Will they really be able to understand how it came to be that in the early 21st century advocating a national health care plan made one a radical “moonbat” while advocating an all-out war with the Muslim world made one a “patriot”? (Note: I say that as someone that isn’t necessarily in favor of a national health care plan, but who recognizes that it isn’t a crazy idea).
DougJ
The stuff Tall Dave says is straight out of Doctor Strangelove. I love his arm chair casualty estimates. If the NSA is keeping tabs on him, I wouldn’t blame them.
Pooh
DougJ, I imagine that there was a similar of cadre who, had there been a blogosphere in the early 80s would have been calling for preemptive strikes against the Soviets. When you watch Red Dawn, The Terminator and Mad Max on a continuos loop, weird things happen to you.
demimondian
My lord. Has anyone reminded these fine folks that Pakistan already has boosted fission devices (and probably thermonuclear devices, too)?
I wonder if they’ll still be talking wo big when they realize that other countries could hit back?
MC
DougJ:
Your work at The Moderate Voice as of late has been terrfic. I’m still waiting for the University of Malvo study citation to show up.
RonB
Malmo! Malmo!!!Get it right!
Pb
demimondian,
Maybe India should remind them again about Pakistan. Or, maybe not…
MC,
University of Mulva? What?
Everyone:
Who in their right mind would hire @&#$ Michael Brown as an emergency preparedness consultant? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
The Disenfranchised Voter
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Wow. Just wow. Now I feel 100% confident in my decision to not bother with OCSteve anymore.
Independent my ass. The guy is delusional.
ppGaz–you’re Nicole Brown comeback was pure genius.
jg
So since oil prices haven’t dropped thru the floor we didn’t go to war to secure the second largest oil field in the middle east? Thats your logic?
Haliburton is the only company large enough to handle the job so why bother with oversight?
You’re telling me not to rely on what I feel but then you say you feel we haven’t found WMD because its been moved and we’ll see how this plays out?
We’ll see? Who’s dealing in fact here?
Bush straight up lied. The intelligence was ambiguous at best but he only mentioned the stuff that proved his case. Only submitted to Congress the side of the argument he wanted Congress to know.
Steve
Wow. That’s some amazing stuff you guys found.
Both sides laugh at the other side… but I think our laughter is a little more nervous, for some reason.
Pb
What scares me the most about all this “invade Iran yesterday” dreck is how seriously the nutbars over at Red State are taking it. The diary there linking to Winds of Change is currently at the top of their Recommended Diaries list, with 42 comments. Compare that to the front-paged bin Laden diary (about how he’s a has-been who wishes he could be as scary as Iran) with 4 comments. Apparently if there isn’t a country to destroy (someone else’s, ours, or perhaps both), they aren’t interested.
Pooh
Southwest Airlines. Want to get away?
Paddy O'Shea
Time Magazine has some disturbing stuff (disturbing at least for loon-wings) about the relationship between Jack Abramoff and President Puddinpants.
When George Met Jack
“White House aides deny the President knew lobbyist Abramoff, but unpublished photos shown to TIME suggest there’s more to the story.”
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1151747,00.html
GTinMN
There’s no arguing with a delusional paranoid bedwetter obsessing on ‘the terrorists, the terrorists, it’s all I can THINK about, nothing else MATTERS!!!‘.
The demagoging fear-mongers will get that vote every time. Bush will continue to get away with incompetence and looting and still win that vote, as long as his propaganda machine faithfully feeds into that irrational fear, which is the real ‘BDS’.
Paddy O'Shea
Considering the lousy job Bush has done fighting terrorism, I’d say that if this is your greatest concern you’d want to at least get someone in there quick with at least some ability to get the job done.
It’s over 4 years later, hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent and we’ve suffered 10s of thousands U.S. military people killed or maimed. Osama bin Laden is not only still at large, but continuing to kill Americans.
If our govt was a private corporation Bush and his cronies would have been fired a long time ago.
DougJ
Just watching Tweety on NBC. I think the show would be better if we got to see the blow jobs panelists give each other after the show instead of just getting to watch the on-air foreplay.
Paddy O'Shea
Speaking of guys giving each other blow jobs, why is it gay men seem to get so much access to the Bush White House? Including Georgie himself?
The way those photos of Georgie and Jack are described in that Time article, I almost suspect we’ll be seeing some real Executive Mansion man on man action soon.
ppGaz
Holsinger posted this, this morning.
I’m speechless.
MC
Is this is the same Tom Holsinger?
Strategy Page
You know nothing of war…
The Other Steve
How can you possibly say that? Have you not known the bitter defeat when you toss your 1D20 and have it come up with a 1, thereby losing your saving throw against the Wizard’s ice storm?
Having replayed the entire Vietnam war using Avalon Hill’s ‘War’s of the 1960s” series, I can assure you that the real problem was with General Eisengard. Had he not aligned 4 divisions of infrantry at the Battle of Hoi Toi he would have had a +2 added to his dice throw, thereby gaining a +1 advantage in dice throws against Ho Chi Minh. That was the turning point of the war… That one mistake.
RonB
This just keeps getting better, doesn’t it?
Now tell Cole to blogroll me or else I’m taking my wingnut collection and going home. :)
RonB
Why, it’ll be a slam dunk.
MC
I think we have a match…
Hugh Hewitt
A California attorney, endorsed by two other attorneys and a social anthropologist. This truly is an important work of strategery…
“You know nothing of war”
God help us all.
ppGaz
Amen, brother.
ppGaz
T. O. Steve, drop me an email.
First three letters of my handle, plus ooding at rocketmail dot com.
CaseyL
– From “Funny X-Files Quotes”
Maybe the moralists were right about role-playing games. The 101st Keyboard Battalion certainly has a somewhat, ah… inflated… idea of their own bravery, prowess, and geopolitical/military brilliance.
Ah, well. Holsinger et al. no doubt are accurate mirrors of what passes for policy discussion in the Bush Admin. As it was with Iraq, so will it be with Iran:
1. Public assurances that “all other options are being considered” will prove to be lies; a war was the sole plan all along.
2. The war planners who did so well in Iraq will also be the architects of a war with Iran. Oh, and that great line, “There will be no resistance; we’ll be greeted as liberators”? Has already made multiple appearances on RW blogs.
3. At some point in the next 2 years, a Bush Admin official will say “No one could have anticipated that Iran would shut down the Strait of Hormuz” –
4. – along with “No one could have anticipated that we would need to put troops on the ground in Iran” –
5. – not to mention “No one could have anticipated that there would be an insurgency in Iran, and no one could have anticipated that it would reinvigorate the insurgency in Iraq” –
6. – “I’m convinced the insurgencies are in their last throes. They’re nothing more than dead-enders, leftovers from the last regime, a few foreign fighters from outside the country; nothing to lose sleep over.”
7. “No one could have anticipated the difficulties we’re encountering in Iran and Iraq. But that’s not our fault. Syria is the problem. Syria has the WMDs from Iraq and the fissionable materials from Iran and is supporting the insurgencies in Iraq and Iran. Once we invade Syria, everything else will fall into place – ”
8. “- though, of course, war with Syria would be a last resort -”
9. “- though we would be greeted as liberators in Syria -”
Rinse. Repeat.
God, I’m glad I don’t have kids.
ppGaz
Mary Matalin, on MTP today, when asked whether it is “fair to say” that Jack Abramoff was “close to Republicans.”
She went on to say:
You can’t make this shit up, folks. The Abramoff scandal is about the Democrats letting too much power get centered in Washington.
Seriously, she actually said that. You can look it up on the MTP transcript.
D. Mason
ppgaz – the funny part is that everything she said in her quote is totally true. The government is not run by angels, and if you want to cut the corruption out of washington the best thing to do would be to shift the power back to the states. Without a doubt the republicans have used those statement as talking points to win elections for quite some time, too bad that when they’re in office they do the exact opposite.
If republicans actually did what they said they were going to do (small government, fiscal responsability, etc etc) instead of doing the things they attack the democrats for doing then America might be a decent place to live. Instead we have a faux two party system where the difference between each candidate boils down to abortion. Democrats and Repiblicans alike want to tax the middle class into oblivion while sending decent jobs to South America. Both sides of the aisle agree that gun control is the best thing since sliced bread and when it comes to federal government, bigger is always better. The more they spend, the more they can skim off the top so “solving” problems with currency is the order of the day in Washington, every day. No matter who is in office the cost of living goes up twice as fast as the amount people are earning. The U.S. dollar is worthless abroad aswell as our reputation.
Abramoff seems to be almost entirely a Republican scandal but don’t get it twisted, the hole America is in wasn’t dug in 6 years. The American way of life has been going into the shitter for decades under Republican and Democrat leaders alike. There is a fundamental flaw in the way both parties approach governing and that’s the pink elephant in the room. Not all that long ago America was a world leader, a shining example of what hard work and human spirit could accomplish. America has changed drastically since those days and I believe all of our “leaders” deserve a little of the credit.
DougJ
Who do you think are, Al Maviva? That post was way too long.
In addition to being stupid and simplistic.
Don’t quit your day job.
ppGaz
I don’t disagree with you Mason, but her intent was not quite as level-headed as yours. Hers was to deflect outrage from the GOP, plain and simple.
There is one thing I want from today’s GOP, besides not leading us into total destruction which seems less and less assured as time goes on …. what I want from them is for them to take responsibility. They can start with Abramoff. Just take responsibility for what is theirs to be acountable for. Do that, and I’ll cut them some slack.
D. Mason
Well, isn’t that what GOP talking heads are for? Seriously though, these clowns don’t know the first thing about responsability, I honestly am starting to think it’s a foriegn concept to them.
I will use Bill Clinton as an example of someone who doesn’t take responsability but who seems to recognise its existance. Sure he said “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” but all the while he preparing himself for the dose of responsability that he knew was heading down the pike. Some responsability will fall on you whether you accept it or not but the Bush regime doesn’t even seem to know that such a thing exists. Look at Iraq … there were some fixed consequences for the invasion, but rather than take responsability, King George said “we will be greeted as liberators”. Now that would have been well and fine if he had just said it while preparing for the worst, but he seems to have believed it and acted accordingly… dangerous stuff.
GTinMN
..to the states, where corruption is non-existent?
Please explain how these scandals in Arizona OhioIllinois Kentuckyalong with many others, are rendered magically meaningless in the face of your absolutely brilliant and irrefutable thesis.
HH
How many countles times have the likes of Rush Limbaugh been compared to all manner of fascists and terrorists and the righty blogoshpere did’thavce a collective conniption fit? But Mikey Moore is pparently important enough to the left that John Kerry, who was last seen distancing himself from Moore after seeing what it did to Wesley Clark, has to rush to his defense, on Markos “Screw them” Moulitsas’ blog (gee there’s someone else he was distancing himself from just over a year ago). Tom Daschle, not exactly some talking head no one cares about (at least not at the time) compared Limbaugh to the Taliban and the left celebrated this. But when it’s that paragon of truth and integrity Mikey Moore, who has been insulted, here comes the left and their standard bearers to the rescue!
D. Mason
GTinMN it’s not that they’re meaningless, but they are isolated… When power is checked at the state level its corruption doesn’t permeate the entire nation. Also, spreading the power out helps avoid situations like were in now where one group has a strangle hold on the whole country. The founding fathers knew the dangers of centralised power, that’s why they put most of the power in the hands of the states. They were right of course, as we’ve seen, when the power is all in once place it becomes easy for a despot to usurp the entire government.
Frank
HH- False equivalence. Micheal Moore doesn’t broadcast eliminationist fantasy about the right. Limbaugh does about the left.
HH
“Sure he said ‘I did not have sexual relations with that woman’ but all the while he preparing himself for the dose of responsability that he knew was heading down the pike.”
So now it comes down to mind-reading to defend the Big Me (or did his best selling book of BS tell you that?).
If you don’t recall the Clintonian “responsibility” was to feign taking responsibility and quickly shift the blame to Ken Starr, Linda Tripp, Newt Gingrich, etc.
HH
“Eliminationist fantasy?” Did FAIR or Media Matters put that nonsense into your head? I certainly saw lots of fantasy in Fahrenheit 9/11…
DougJ
I can’t take credit for HH, as much as I’d like to.
D. Mason
wow HH I can tell that you’re a right-wing loyalist. Want to know how? It’s because you reply to points by spewing bile.
I clearly said that Bill Clinton (whos book I never read) failed to take responsability for his actions with Monica Lewinsky. But atleast he had the foresight to prepare for the worst, foresight which may have kept him in office through impeachment. Bush on the other hand lied to the public to take us to war, then was grossly mistaken about how the war would turn out and all the while failed to plan for any of the inevitable contingencies. See the disconnect? Of course not, that’s why you’re a right wing loyalist. ;)
True thinking conservatives who keep an eye on politics know that Bush is a song and dance man. King George is a Connecticut carpetbagger playing you right wingers for fools. He is a big government building, corperate welfare handing out, gun control pushing flim flam man.
HH
Gotta love a lefty throwing around terms like “carpetbagger” while defending the Clintons in the same breath… Terms like “King George” and “lied… into war” while pretending to value rational thought are a bonus.
How many fingers does it take to count the number of people rushing to defend Michael Moore who also condemned the likes of Harry Belafonte calling Bush a worst terrorist than Bin Laden (not to mention the preference of bin Laden to Bush recently rearing its ugly head on Dkos)?
GTinMN
D. Mason,
You need to get off the simplistic ranting about the need to disempower Washington as a means to elminate corruption. It makes absolutely no sense, it was a throw-away line by Mary Matalin in place of a real answer, which is her stock-in-trade when cornered, which is always nowadays.
It’s time to start throwing the bums out this fall, and then start impeachment proceedings if the voters have the sense to vote in a majority of Dems to clean up the current mess. I fear a Dem majority isn’t likely though, plus we’d need a lot of new blood in there with the balls to do what needs doing instead of angling for a perch on the many corporate teats. I’m all for increasing Congressional salaries and instituting public campaign financing as a means of eliminating the influence of corporate lobbyists.
DougJ
I won’t spoil your fun, HH. You must be one of us.
D. Mason
Yeah! That’ll really teach em how we deal with crooks and do nothing bums!
Pb
HH,
Or perhaps a better terrorist. Anyhow, forgive them, most people like that grew up on First Person Shooters–they’re just counting the number of kills.
GTinMN
No, but it would eliminate any excuse for soliciting funds from lobbyists, instead of devoting time to addressing the interests of the voters, as would publically financed campaigns.
My mistake, I should have dismissed you as a moron based on your initial comment, but giving you the benefit of the doubt for a bit allowed you to make the case.
tb
You lost me. You’re not making any sense. You need to try harder.
ppGaz
Yes, five years into the CollossalFuckup government, and still talking about Clinton.
That’s either a solid spoof, for which you deserve credit, or else …. you’ve been living under a rock.
Or ….. can you be Darrell in drag?
Pooh
Early nominee for PoTW. Well played.
DougJ
I’m not sure what we can do about this, but we should all do what we can.
ppGaz
How many times has anyone we’ve mentioned here, other than the fat pig Limbaugh, gone on television to get laughs over the appearance of a young teenaged girl … at her expense?
Only Limbaugh has done that. The man is a turd.
ppGaz
That does it. I’m putting up my own satellite.
The Other Steve
It’s interesting… But Wesley Clark standing up and saying essentially “You know, I may not agree with Moore, but he has a right as American to say what he thinks”, made me proud.
It’s rare to have people will courage enter politics.
But the Moore thing didn’t hurt him… He was going up in the NH polls until Kerry pulled out of Iowa.
The Other Steve
Oh man! That’s the funniest line all night describing these idiots.
And some wonder why they are alled chickenhawks.
Sine.Qua.Non
Holy shit…..204 comments on THIS? Now it’s 205. Man.
Sorry John, but, it’s kind of absurd.
Other Steve: It’s alway a BAD thing when you pull out too soon ;-o
InsultComicDog
Smartest thing Kerry’s done in a couple of years.
ppGaz
Stop the presses! THIS is a real tragedy ….
scs
Kerry and the Dems once again show why the American people didn’t vote for them. Yes, true, Osama may have escaped from Tora Bora. What the Dems don’t take into account is some other harsh reality. And that is, how were we supposed to get enough troops in there in time to create a large enough imprint so that we could successfully play hide and seek with Osama in the mountains?
In case the Dems forget, Tora Bora is in the middle of tall, rugged mountains in the middle of nowhere. Or, maybe close to the Taliban stronghold of S.E. Afghanistan, if anything. That’s probably why Osama picked it. How would we physically get the large number of troops there needed for this? What roads were there for us? We don’t really have many good donkey batallions, as far as I know. Where would we house the troops needed and how would we feed them while we play hide and seek? What was to prevent Osama from making a quick dash over to Pakistan anyway while we got all this infrastructure in place so that we could chase him? How many casualties would we have sustained while doing this? The reason the current Dems aren’t respected by many is that they love to trumpet the easy solutions and point blame, without taking the problems of reality into account and thinking about the hard choices that have to be made. They are still showing that they are not ready to lead.
tb
Nice thread. I love the way the wingers get these massive erections as soon as the subject turns to Michael Moore or (drool) a possible invasion. The bullshit non-topics really get them going. They can’t get the old circle-jerk started fast enough.
tb
Like you have a clue about any of this shit, Mr. Armchair General. What are you, a logistics expert?
scs
Let me think. Tora Bora. Mountains. No roads. No bases. Next door to Pakistan. Doesn’t take an expert, man.
tb
Yes, it does. You’d be amazed at what people can do when they know what the fuck they’re doing.
scs
You think the military doesn’t know what they’re doing? Okay, your call. Yes they could have gotten some military in there, (and they did with Special Ops) but probably not enough to block the exit of one man, whose location was not even precisely known. I mean, remember how long it took the military to get some bottled water to New Orleans? How long do you think it would have taken to get thousands of troops into the mountains of Tora Bora? A lot longer.
tb
I love the thought process here. Do I have to walk you through all the reasons wny these are totally different situations? Because I really don’t have the energy right now. They do have one thing in common though: Bush failed America in both situations. He got our people killed with his incompetence. Nothing can change that sad fact.
scs
fyi, I was using the N.O. example as a joke, not because I believe they are the same situations. Perhaps though just as an example that things are not always as simple as they seem.
scs
Hey tb, you look familiar. Did you ever live in New York?
tb
Gotcha.
Nobody ever said taking Tora Bora was going to be simple. Regardless of that, Bush had an opportunity and he blew it.
tb
Nope, I’m from Portland, and lived in LA for a little while.
scs
Okay. Saw the Portland part. Thought you might have migrated though. I think I used to know of a guy named Todd in a band in NYC who looked a little like you. But it’s a large world with lots of people in it. Anyway, later.
tb
Yep, taker easy.
Lee
Sorry so late to the thread, nobody is probably reading anymore but here is a little tidbit from my buddy who was in Afghaninstan during Tora Bora.
They (the Marines) were geared up and ready to go into Tora Bora. They knew it was going to be a tough bloody fight and the casualites were probably going to be very high. But they knew OBL was there and they felt it was worth the price.
They were ordered to stand down. They were told it was Bush/Rumsfeld that ordered them to stand down. To put it mildly, the Marines were very very unhappy.
So yes we LET him get away.
I’m not much of a conspiracy theorist guy (nor my buddy) but both of us agree that the reason we did not catch him then is that if we had, the Administration would have had a harder time selling the Iraq invasion.
VidaLoca
Lee,
Not quite everybody has gone…
I’d always wondered about the conclusion that you and your buddy drew. But since I couldn’t ever prove it one way or the other I figured I’d have to live between the Administration’s deniability and my suspicion.
IIRC, and contrary to the argument that scs makes above, the Marines (or the Marines and the Afghans?) had Tora Bora surrounded when the decision was made to send in the Afghans instead of the Marines, to get OBL. If somebody can correct me on that point I’d appreciate it but either way, we all know the outcome.
What you wrote made me sick. But anyhow thanks for passing it along.
ppGaz
That makes as much sense as any explanation I’ve seen. More, the more I think about it.
It helps explain this amazing turnabout by El Presidente Spud:
I could also be talked into believing that the Saudi royals beseeched the little
prickpresident into letting him get away.Lee
From what I understand, we had Afghans and SpecOps guys there initially. We had the Marines ready to send in to secure the area around Tora Bora and give more muscle to the final assualt.
The thousands of Marines were ready to deploy, travel time to Tora Bora would have been the only consideration (30-60 min?). Marines hit the ground ready to fight.
Darrell
Going by memory here, but are you sure it was Marines ready to do the fighting there? I thought it was the Army’s Mountain division, since they train in the mountains and are equipped for that type of terrain
scs
Yes and did we really have “thousands” of military nearby, surrounding Tora Bora. I doubt the number was that large, but I may be wrong. Also, how close were they? And is Tora Bora a specific mountain, or a mountain range? Have to look this stuff up I guess.
Darrell
if it was so surrounded (which is impossible in a mountain range that large with no specifics on where OBL was located), then how could OBL have escaped? The US had just overrun Kabul and Khandahar largely by using Afghan forces (Northern Alliance), so given those successes, was it really so unreasonable to use Afghan forces to do the heavy fighting in the mountains, especially given their familiarity with the area and the people?
scs
Yeah, I agree with Darrell. A little good common rightie sense on here for once. Yes, HOW was this area surrounded? And maybe Rumsfeld called off the attack because they heard through the grapevine that Osama had already escaped on donkey back. We don’t know the real reason anyway and no use to assume.
VidaLoca
Darrell (and scs) —
Agreed, the Northern Alliance forces were successfully beating the Taliban in the ground fighting that took Kabul and Khandahar. The NA were hot to fight, they had a lot of blood debts to settle, and having knowledgeable allies never hurts: to send them home or ignore them would have been silly. Also agreed, “surrounding” a mountain range is a nebulous concept, and even under the best of conditions you don’t win every battle.
But this battle was the upshot of the whole frickin’ war! And now comes Lee with a story from someone who was there, saying that the Marines were told to stand down! If that’s true then no I don’t think it’s reasonable to stand down the Marines or the Army or anyone else if you think there’s a good chance of nailing OBL.
I mean really. The whole damn reason we went over there in the first place was because he attacked us — now we want to count on the Afghans to finish the job?
You guys can buy it if you want. I think somebody got some ‘splainin to do.
ppGaz
And he is keeping this a secret … for four years?
Why don’t we have a blow-by-blow account of what happened in there, and why? Why are we even sitting here guessing and relying on first-hand anecdotes?
This pursuit was supposedly THE MOST IMPORTANT THING your government was doing 4 years ago. What happened?
And who here … or anywhere … is going to be swayed by the arguments of a Darrell or an scs in such a matter?
Seriously … two people who have less than zero credibility here are going to argue an OBL escape scenario?
And congrats, Darrell … you have yourself a follower. Wait until you find out how great that is going to turn out for you!
Darrell
Well, Tommy Franks answered that in his NY Times article, and he says we didn’t know then and still don’t know now if OBL was even in Tora Bora at that time. And anyway, it was military commanders, not Bush and Rumsfeld making those tactical decisions
But don’t let that stop you ppgaz.. keep screaming “Bush lied people died” until snot comes out of your nose
ppGaz
Why don’t we know that? We went into Afghanistan to get him. Not to streamline the government of the world’s premier heroin producer, eh? Not to secure rights for Afghan women, right? TO GET OBL.
If we are to take your nonsense literally, then what was the basis for this:
How did that morph into this:
Was he wrong the first time? Did he think we’d forget?
BIRDZILLA
Micheal Moore has the brain the size of a walnut he must be one of those stupid whitemen he blabbered about in his book
ppGaz
Hmm, where does the expression “bird-brain” come from?
Gabriel Chapman
I’ve finally figured out how Bush has retained power, special mind powers with the ability to make his opponent batshit insane post-election, and thus remove that person from the electoral pool for the forseeable future.
Think about it, not a single Bush oppoenent in the past 16 years has any relevance on the political stage.