And while Barney Frank is babbling about ethnic cleansing, Lt. Gov. Michael Steele is making his own stupid remarks:
Maryland Lt. Gov. Michael S. Steele apologized this morning for telling a Baltimore Jewish group yesterday that he believes stem cell research could be comparable to Nazi medical testing on Jews during World War II.
“I’m just sorry for having said it, for it having come out the way it did,” Steele (R) said on WBAL radio. “I made an inappropriate inference, and I apologize for that.”
Because dissecting a cell is the same as performing surgery on people without anesthesia.
You know what is like Nazis? Nazis are like Nazis. Most everything else falls short on the scale of evil. Idiot.
Lines
How the hell is Frank’s comments about “ethnic cleansing” linking anything to the Nazi’s, John?
Wow, you really do need to get laid or something, you’re just irritable and cranky.
The Disenfranchised Voter
I’ll have to second what Lines said, that is, if you were saying that Frank was making Nazi comparisons. While I think Frank’s comments were over the top, I don’t think the Nazi’s have the copywrite on ethnic cleansing. So to say that he was making Nazi comparisons is a bit of a stretch.
With that said, the Lt. Gov is clearly insane. Even thought he apologized, I think we all know that he actually still believes what he said about stem cell research.
ppGaz
Well, the other side of the Idiot Coin is the bullshit idea that evil only exists if it rises to the level of the Third Reich. Evil is evil, period. It doesn’t have to be genocide to be evil.
As for the stem cell remark, I don’t know enough about Steele or his meaning yesterday to have a comment on it one way or the other.
We are heading toward a new strain of political correctness now, especially in the blahsphere. Every snarkable act of expression must be elevated to public ridicule and ginned up for page views.
This … thing … we’re doing here is starting to become a caricature of itself.
The Disenfranchised Voter
ppGaz, there is a difference between enforcing political correctness and enforcing sanity. What the Lt. Gov. clearly said was insane, not just un-PC.
Krista
I don’t know if everything else falls short on the scale of evil. If you look throughout history, there have been people who were arguably just as evil as Hitler. They may have just not had the same m.o.
But yeah, the “Nazi” epithet is way overused.
Pooh
Hey, the trains ran on time.
ppGaz
Or the same opportunity.
Dave Ruddell
To quote Jon Stewart:
Marcus Wellby
Quick ethics question:
The year is 2012, Lt. Gov. Michael S. Steele has been diagnosed with Parkinsons disease. A new therapy discovered through stem cell research in 2011 is available in Europe. Does Mr. Steele:
A) Stand by his princinples and refuse seeking treatment?
B) Fly to Sweden under an assumed name for treatment?
ppGaz
I don’t agree that it’s insane, although I certainly don’t agree with it. Amazingly dumb to say it to that audience, for sure.
I think overspeech is so rampant in the blahsphere now that we’ve lost all sense of proportion.
If his remarks were “insane” then should the Jews riot and burn down the state capitol? I mean, that’s the kind of world we live in now. Why stop at calling it “insane?” Why not “blasphemous” too?
When words trump reality, then words will lose all scale. Keeping in mind the name of this blog, is it possible that we’ve crossed that line?
Richard Bottoms
Snap!
neil
Considering that Barney Frank’s whole appearance on Hardball appears to have been devoted to parsing the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide, I think that John can be accused of only watching the sound bite.
Lines
Also, John, you do know that Michael Steele isn’t the first one to make the comparison of Nazi Germany/Medical tests to today’s Stem Cell research, right? That whole line of reasoning has been brought up by right-wing religious fundies for awhile now, he’s just trying to excite the base with his over-extension of hyperbole. Not that he shouldn’t be held responsible for it, though.
Jim Allen
Was Steele the guy who was brutally assaulted by Oreo cookies?
Jill
Answer to Marcus Wellby’s question:
B! but, A will be his official response.
Mr Furious
What? You mean out of your mouth for others to hear?
Vladi G
Yes! Well, except the Bush administration. But other than them, Yes!
;)
Steve
I don’t see how anyone could reasonably read John’s post as saying Barney Frank made a Nazi comparison. I could infer that John believes it was a stupid comparison, but the only one who made a Nazi comparison was Steele.
Perry Como
That gives me an idea…
neil
Oh, and as long as we’re on the topic of Nazis…
Mr Furious
Dobson got nailed for the same thing a while back. Obviously Steele wasn’t paying attention. Or, he was, and he decided to follow Dobson’s lead and up the ante by making the comments before a Jewish audience.
Jackass. Regardless of his views, his judgement is clearly so bad as to disqualify him from higher office
Jim Allen
Make that question, “Was Steele the guy who was brutally assaulted *with* Oreo cookies?”
I mean, even I know that Oreo cookies are inanimate objects and unlikely to be brought up on charges of assault.
Lines
Then why bring up Barney Frank at all, Steve?
Is John just trying to suck up to the Protein Wisdom guys again?
Don Surber
The overuse of Nazis is to me anti-Semitic as it simply devalues the evil of the Nazis
Ditto genocide
Ditto ethnic cleansing
We are an intelligent, well-educated people. Let us stop hurling verbal nunchuks at one another over minor disagreements
Faux News
I believe that quote was for Italy’s Fascist dicator Mussolini.
German trains and buses have always run on time :-)
Steele is an idiot. Maryland residents have known that since the 2002 elections.
neil
Good point, Steve, reading it again I see you’re right.
Steve
Because Barney Frank made a comparison which John thinks is stupid, and now Michael Steele made a different comparison which John also thinks is stupid, and which commits the sin of bringing up the Nazis as well. It was just a transitional phrase, I don’t know if we need to go all Derrida on it.
DJ
That is a story that Steele made up. No one there could coorberate his story.
Jim Allen
Thanks, DJ. Yeah, I remember that there was some question as to the veracity of the story (to be polite) — wasn’t sure if it was this, or some other, bozo who was involved.
Krista
No, it was those two M&M guys. They pinned the rap on the Oreos.
Jim Allen
See, Krista, that’s why I modified the question! Except I pictured the Keebler elves, not the M&M guys.
wilfred
Politicians talk about science, history, and philosophy at their peril.
A word about “evil” in political discourse.
One might think that by the time blogs were invented, people would have given up on 7th-century conceptions of human motivation. I’ll spot you sickness, anger, greed, corruption, perversion, ignorance, and probably a lot more. But evil? That’s shorthand, right? It can’t be an actual attempt to explain anything.
SeesThroughIt
Christ. Chavez really needs to work on his nickname snaps.
Tim F.
Wilfred,
You might find this post and its comments illuminative. Therein I propose Tim F’s law:
Otto Man
As others have said, that story seems to be grounded in truthiness.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh brother. You know what elses gets overused? The anti-semitic line.
KC
I see the Nazi thing; John’s right, Nazis are Nazis. What bothers me though is how cable news guys/the media praise “straight” talkers, but everytime someone comes along and speaks their mind, they get pummeled for it. Frankly, I think Dean says some stupid things, I think Bush says some stupid things, but I’d rather them say some stupid things, than listen to well-polished, talking point driven, media made people like Ken Mehlman any day.
John Cole
You have to be fucking kidding me.
Serenity now.
Lines
No John, I’m not “fucking kidding” you. Why even bring up Frank in this instance, especially when you’ve been caught ignoring the reality of the Frank quote on the other thread? Is it to troll your own blog, as I and others have insinuated today and in the past?
Or was it just a horrible post and you had no intention of linking Barney Frank’s comments to Nazi’s? Why even put him in this post when it has nothing to do with Barney Frank?
The Disenfranchised Voter
Lines, I can see why you interpreted John’s post the way you did–I did originally too. But after reading it a second time, I felt that he might just be linking the two comments together because they were “stupid remarks”. That’s why I made sure to note in my comment “if you were saying that Frank was making Nazi comparisons.”
jg
What are you like 10 years old? Waaaah he said Nazi. Mommy make them stop saying Nazi.
Those who don’t study history are doomed to repeat it. ‘Those who don’t study history’ apparently includes assholes who are so offended by comparisons that they won’t listen and stand around stomping their feet and sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling ‘I can’t hear you’.
The neo-con method of gaining and keeping power is SIMIALR to how the Nazis did it. Grow up and deal with that.
Richard Bottoms
That’s what they’d like you to believe. We’ve seen what raisans can do when motivated. Don’t you hear your M&M’s scream when you eat them???
Or is it just me!!
jg
He’s linking ‘ethnic cleansing’ and ‘Nazi’. Nazis tried to enthnically cleans europe and people compare Bush to Hitler.
Its weak and frankly adds to my growing belief that Darrel is actually John trolling his own blog.
Lines
DV: My key point remains unanswered: why bring up Barney Frank at all in this post? Especially when John was slapped down handily in the other thread about cutting and pasting emotional topics from lengthy discussions and then using it as a standalone to generate blog hits.
John Cole
BZZZZZZT. Wrong.
DING-DING-DING-DING! We have a winner. Indeed, that was exactly why I said:
I mean, jesus. Do you folks intentionally misread everything I write?
Richard Bottoms
As Buffy said, “Allright, I get it. You’re evil.”
I think the point of Weisel and others is the banality of their evil. The rallies worked because, well cool rallies work as do evocative imagry, primal colors, and stiring music.
I’ve seen that movie too. The Wall right? Or was it Romancing the Stone II.
We get it. They were eveil. But even evil people use toothpaste. You know, becaue they are just like us.
Except. You know, they’re evil.
ppGaz
But, you’ve already answered that question.
“You people” are stupid. Clueless. Idiots. Fucking crazy.
“Us people” are obviously way to dense to understand the subtle and profoundly rational material you pour forth, John. Knowing this, why do you berate us so?
Count the number of times you have expressed disdain for “you people” this week, and get back to me, will you?
jg
I think its more a case of you not being so clear in what you’re saying. Maybe its your political wishy-washiness too. You link the two because they’re stupid remarks but frankly I don’t know what you find stupid about them. which hat are you wearing right now?
John Cole
They are both stupid remarks because by using loaded terms like ehtnic cleansing, Frnak makes others dismiss him as merely spewing overwrought hyperbole when the Democrats should have the high ground on the issue. When people use ethnic cleansing, they are not thinking of urban removal. They are thinking of Serbia, with people being gunned down into large holes in the forest and buried. It was stupid to even link the Katrina aftermath and ethnic cleansing.
If it is not readily obvious why Steele’s comments are stupid, I wash my hands of you.
Richard Bottoms
You know there is a difference between Barney Frank making a over the top comparison of FEMA stupidity and ethnic cleansing, and a movement with millions of believers who think abortion as well as stem cell research is JUST like the Holocaust.
You have to know in your heart GW believes exactly the same thing. He just THAT dumb that he would openly say so. And well, unlike Barney Frank, the smirking chimp is the president.
Steele wouldn’t have made these remarks if he didn’t surrond himslef with thousands upon thousands of people who think the exact same thing he does.
He was just surprised to find out, maybe there are some differing opinions from like, Jewish people.
Richard Bottoms
Well, we kinda do, since who watches Hardball as I asked earlier?
We are quite aware that every stupid remark be a single Democrat will be imputed to the entire party.
What else is new.
Steve
I think you’re mischaracterizing their position. Many extremists believe stem cell research, just like abortion, is far worse than the Holocaust, because of the number of “lives” involved. They might even criticize you for trivializing the evil of stem cell research.
t. jasper parnell
Mr Cole,
I agree that there has been some serious misreading here, as clearly you think that Mr. Frank and Mr. Steele are equally idiots engaging in hyperbole. Missing this point, it seems to me, requires reading with one eye.
However, in terms of the early comments on Mr. Frank’s comments and your use of them, my complaint, as was others, were not misreading and thus evidence of my stupidity, which much to my daily chagrin is undeniable. Rather, they were disagreements concerning the nature of the remarks and the manner in which you deployed them. In that case, or thread if I must, it was an argument concerning interpretation and context. Not an example of my inability to understand the point you wished to make.
While it would be nice if, like Socrates in the Platonic dialoques, every word one uttered was greeted with rapturous agreement. In the real world, reasonable people can disagree.
srv
Why doesn’t Mel Brooks do Springtime for Hitler but with a DC bent? He could have all the parties and religious folk…
ppGaz
Well, just to put a marker here, I think I said that he was wrong, and was dumb to make such remarks to that audience.
Having said that, aren’t we making way too much of this?
Bob In Pacifica
Is Don Surber the official cliche censor now? If only he were the official censor in Denmark!
Pooh
I think calling Frank’s comments “stupid” is incorrect. He may be factually ‘wrong’ in terms of the demographic effect on N.O., and he may be using unnecesarily heated language, but the words “ethnic cleansing” have meaning, not ‘meaningness’, and he was using it in those terms.
ppGaz
I had that idea in a dream once, after taking too much Vitamin B6 right before bedtime. In my dream, the situation was called “marriage.”
However, I woke up, and like Santa and the Tooth Fairy, the fantasy went away …….
I never though of starting a blog, though ………
ppGaz
*thought of*
jg
Since people are stupid people can’t speak? No big words because ther’s a nation of idiots who need to be told whats what and they look to FOX? Intelligent people know what he meant and understand the difference between N.O. and Serbia. I’m tired of gearing the debate to the stupid people.
jg
I said I don’t know why YOU think what he said was stupid. There are many things stupid about what he said but I can’t tell what side of the aisle you’re on most of the time. I don’t know if you think its stupid because he said Nazi and Bush people hate that or because his point (whatever it was) is lost because he used the word Nazi.
Richard Bottoms
Anyway, Nazis are just to serious to joke about in any way shape or form.
Now could someone find the lyrics to “Springtime for Hitler”.
I can’t make out some of the words.
srv
They say the Producers is sold-out in Tel Aviv.
The Other Steve
I’m going to defend Michael Steele here, although I don’t quite agree with his point.
I think it is important to look not just at the Nazis, but also the Communists, and learn from them. That learning process can only take place if we are allowed to say things like “This one particular thing is similar to what Hitler did”.
To silence that type of comparison and say it’s unreasonable because even though Hitler burned the Reichstag he also killed six million jews, and in this case so and so is only burning the Reichstag so it’s not comparable is dreadfully unhelpful.
I do think there are terrific ethical concerns regarding stemcell research. I just wish we could have an honest open debate about that, rather than the ridiculous rhetoric. Unfortunately Bush killed any chance of having an ethical debate, because he pushed funding for it out of the public sphere and into the private one, thereby allowing researchers to do anything they want.
The Other Steve
I think you’ve already dismissed the argument, and are simply using Frank’s statement to distract from that. So that you don’t have to defend your position, you can simply point to some guy and say “See, he’s being ridiculous.”
Nobody forced you to do that. You made a choice.
Well, maybe. Again, I don’t know. I think it depends on your perspective. The problem with what the Nazis did is that there are so many ways to look at it and declare it wrong.
Again, I think it’s not helpful for us as a society to be unable to learn lessons from what the Nazis did. Banning all reference to that time causes it to fall into the mists of history and be forgotten.
Steve
Let’s say you’re 100% allowed to make comparisons to the Holocaust. It would still be completely stupid to compare stem-cell research to the Holocaust!
Richard Bottoms
The Mighty Thor #134 “The People Breeders”
The Other Steve
Don Surber wrote:
Are you Jeff Goldstein in disguise? Whining about name calling while calling everybody names.
Richard Bottoms
Except that the right doesn’t believe in “minor” disagreements. It believes in total victory and will engage in trashing war vets with no legs or micking valorus sailors if that’s what it takes to succeed.
Independents and moderate Democrats were suckered into voting for this compassionate conservatism and reasoned debate nonsense three elections in a row mainly due to the belief that a.) Republicans do a better job in war & crisis and b.) Republicans don’t really mean it when it comes to the rhetoric about abortion and stem cell research
The lousy war management and Katrina took care of “a”. Terri Schiavo took care of “b”.
Take your “principled disagreements” and stick them where the sun don’t shine.
neil
When people use ethnic cleansing, they are not thinking of urban removal. They are thinking of Serbia, with people being gunned down into large holes in the forest and buried. It was stupid to even link the Katrina aftermath and ethnic cleansing.
You heard it here first: it’s wrong to say things you believe are true if most people won’t understand you!
The corollary is better understood: it’s right to say things people agree with even if you think they’re wrong.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Look, anyone who thinks that stem cells are equivalent to human life is a fucking moron. Period.
I don’t understand what is up with all the Steele apologists in here. The guy isn’t merely wrong, the guy is delusional.
Richard Bottoms
Yes, these are reasoned opponents we are dealing with:
Hasn’t this bitch earned a visit from the Secret Service yet? I mean they harass 14-year olds who write about hating the president.
ppGaz
While that may be true, at least on a rhetorical level, I don’t think that’s what the man is quoted as saying.
The Disenfranchised Voter
You’re right. He went one step further. Not only did he equate stem cells to Jews, he went on to say that stem cell research is comparable to Nazi experiements on Jews.
ppGaz
Hmm, well here’s the blurb John pointed to:
Uh, no. Even allowing for a stretch, no, TDV, he did not say what you said, unless there’s a lot more to it out there that I haven’t seen.
The only reasonable interpretation I can come up with is that he is decrying experimentation which involves human life in any form, at any level. Any other interpretation would be nonsensical.
Gotta tell ya, this blog habit of taking snippets and extrapolating them into the most ludicrous possible meanings is becoming very tiresome. It’s making a mockery of legitimate blogging, seriously. John falls for this crap, or pretends to so as to rouse the rabble, but that doesn’t mean we have to fall for it.
I got caught in the WaPo registration gears, thank you WaPo shitheads, so I am not wasting a lot more time looking up his remarks. But from what I saw, and what is referenced here, this is bunk. It’s just another PC overreaction to imprecise or even inarticulate speech.
I’m not buying this “stir up the churn” bullshit any more. I didn’t buy it from Tim F on the Mayor Nagin story, and I’m not buying it here.
This is a new and toxic form of super-political-correctness advanced by people like Cole who think that they are the arbiters of what people should say, and think.
Fuck them.
Once-ler
I don’t agree with Steele’s views on stem cell research, and I don’t like what he said any more than any of you. I may not agree with him about anything. But I have to give him some credit for apologizing. Not everybody does that. Once in a while, something stupid will tumble out of anybody’s mouth. He apologized. What more do you want from him?
Have you ever said something that you later regretted? I have.
Richard Bottoms
In this case, I believe Mr. Steele regrets finding out the Jewish audiences don’t share his worldview concerning cells in a petri dish, and will keep his more extreme remarks on the subject “in the family” next time.
Sure. Something like, “Some Republicans aren’t all bad.” Speaking politically of course.
I’m sure not all of them are as full of bile as Ann Coulter and would be great buds to have a beer with. Politically I want every last one of them voted out of office.
But that’s just me.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Steele is clearly–at least in my opinion–equating stem cells with human life in that sentence. You don’t consider stem cell research as “taking life and us[ing] it as a tool” unless you believe that stem cells are equivalent to human life.
I’m sorry but I’m not giving these people an inch anymore. They can believe whatever they want when it comes to their personal religious beliefs, but when they start trying to apply these ignorant and sometimes delusional beliefs on others that is where I draw the line.
Stem cells are not a human life. They are cells. Nothing more, nothing less.
Once-ler
Sure, me too. Because they’re wrong on the issues. But I hate this game of “gotcha” where everyone pounces on one stupid remark.
However, now that I’ve read the whole WaPo article, I see the real significance of this. Check out this quote:
Clearly, the man is in the habit of not thinking. One begins to wonder if he’s even capable of it. I hardly know where to begin with this statement. Going to an all-white country club is OK because he doesn’t play golf? I guess this fits the whole Republican pattern where it’s OK if jobs are outsourced as long as it’s not my job. It’s OK if public schools suck, because my kid goes to private school. It’s OK to have a war as long as it’s not my kid that gets killed.
Then he calls the all-white country club the “perception of discrimination?” No, sorry, that’s the reality of discrimination.
ppGaz
I totally agree. But the Steele thing … and this whole thread … is just typical blogotron overreacction.
What worries me is that we’ve reached the point where all reaction is overreaction, and therefore, impotent.
ppGaz
Good post, and I agree with you that he appears to be a man who talks first and thinks later. Which is a quite human and, to me, quite acceptable trait.
What it’s not, is politic. We’ve become so immersed in the “everything is politics, and vice versa” wa of thinking that our jaws drop when a politician acts this way.
I find it oddly refreshing, actually, even though this guy seems to be politically out there, the idea that politicians might just open their mouths and say what they really think is ….. well, I’d trade the invention of the blog, for that.
ppGaz
Hilarious.
skip
I remember when Noriega became Hitler of the Month almost overnight. Man, this kind of hyperbole gets old!
Tinpot dictators aren’t Hitlers, nor even are those who would foment as much evil were they given the means. Only Hitler was Hitler (though Stalin— who had many friends in Hollywood well into the 1950s— was close).
BTW, just as Hitler was the one and only Hitler, Nazis were the one and only Nazis. It follows that perhaps not all critics of neocons (see other thread on the cartoon mess) should be lumped with fans of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.
These buttons are being pushed until there is no longer a shock effect.
Bulletin: Pat Buchanan is not David Duke.