Tim briefly mentioned my skepticism regarding all things related to the death penalty earlier, but I have a few thoughts about this case:
Now that a jury has delivered a verdict that al-Qaida conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui is eligible for the death penalty, his lawyers face an uphill battle as they try to save a client who apparently wants to die.
“I’m glad I’m not writing life insurance on the guy,” Vermont Law School professor Stephen Dycus said Monday after a jury opened the door for prosecutors to present wrenching, gruesome detail on the events of Sept. 11, 2001.
Dycus and other legal experts say the jury still may decide to spare Moussaoui’s life, but suggest he may have sealed his fate by taking the witness stand. He testified that he was to have flown a fifth plane targeting the White House while fellow 9/11 conspirators flew planes into the World Trade Center in New York City, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania.
First, I find Dycus’s comments to be inappropriate- maybe I am just cranky this morning (that would be a surprise!), but something just rubbed me the wrong way about this Law Prof joking about someone’s possible execution.
Second, I think the real reason he will be sentenced to death is not because of his actual guilt, not because of his actual complicity in 9/11, but because of a nascent bloodlust regarding all things WTC. I am particularly against the death penalty as a form of base retribution.
Third, I am not completely sure he is even sane. I haven’t been paying close attention, but hasn’t he confessed to just about everything but the Lindbergh kidnapping?
Of course, I may be wrong on all accounts, but I just am not sure what executing this poor fool/vile scum (I alternate depending on mood) accomplishes, or if it is even just.
ppGaz
It looks like your blockquote ran over, but anyway ….
I completely agree with your comments, and I commend you for writing them.
The defendant here is clearly crazed, and clearly a terrorist. That said, the death penalty here is entirely a revenge thing. It can serve no other purpose on earth. I find the eagerness to have it to be ugly, and disturbing.
ppGaz
Ah, you fixed the blockquote, never mind that part.
fwiffo
Apparently, John Cole is a communist traitor and objectively pro-terrorism.</snark>
Jim Allen
So the leftie blogger is for the death penalty and the rightie blogger is against the death penalty. Wow. Everything you know is wrong.
And John, I’m with you all the way. Making a benign joke about the potential execution of a member of a terrorist organization is way out of line. Far worse than, say, making fun of a woman whose son was killed fighting a misguided war.
Nikki
John, I agree with you as well. No one responsible has paid for 9/11; it appears that Moussaoui will be the scapegoat.
Caseyl
Thank you for this post, John. The bloodlust for Moussaoui is so obviously, nakedly scapegoating. People ought to be appalled by themselves.
spoosmith
I didn’t know you could get the death penalty for being involved in the planning of a crime, even though you didn’t participate in the execution of the crime.
This might be setting a very, very bad precident.
slickdpdx
I agree that scapegoating is terrible. However, one plane really had four hijackers, the others five. Moussaoui really took flight lessons like the others and so on. Its not like its all the product of a fevered imagination.
Also, putting down “retribution” is silly talk.
jcricket
C’mon here people. Moussaoui is so clearly trying to be a martyr. He was already in jail, and he clearly hates America. So, rather than just accept his fate (long jail sentence), he’s purposefully inflating his role in all things 9/11 so as to foment hatred towards himself. The result of which, he hopes, is his execution and martyrdom for other nascent terrorists out there. For example, he’s claiming he and Richard Reid were supposed to pilot a plane into the White House, something contradicted by all the other intelligence we have on 9/11.
While I’m sure many revenge-minded Americans and nearly 100% of the rightie-bloggers would be happy to oblige Moussaoui’s death wish, the American justice system should not be used that way. I’m not generally pro death penalty, but I’m also not perturbed by the death penalty being used for someone who (for example), tried to blow up a plane full of people with a shoe bomb. However, I am not in favor of uncritically accepting the obvious lies of Moussaoui in order to satisfy the conditions of the death sentence so we can have someone, anyone (please), to kill for 9/11.
This isn’t Tookie Williams, who most likely killed those people and later reformed himself. This is someone who, while odious, didn’t commit the crimes that make him eligible for the death penalty, but wants it anyway.
Israel has actually had success in winning some hearts and minds by imprisoning Palestinian terrorists that it catches and, rather than killing them, treating them reasonably and working on their rehabilitation. You’ll sometimes see those same people who were intent on killing as many Israelis as possible turn into anti-suicide-bombing, anti-terrorist activists, after realizing the error of their ways.
Wouldn’t taking a “long-term view” like this on Moussaoui be preferable?
flaime
My personal opinion: The death penalty should only be used for those persons who are too dangerous to safely incarcerate. There is little justice in pure vengeance, and that’s what most death penalty cases come down to: vengeance.
I don’t see much use in executing Moussaoui. I tend to believe the evidence that he is too unbalanced and not smart enough to be an effective terrorist. And executing him will only give him a status as a “martyr.” The bumbling idiot becomes the inspirations for future generations of terrorists. If they lock him up, he will soon be forgotten. Both more fitting and more effective.
slickdpdx
From the wikipedia entry: From February 26 to May 29, 2000, Moussaoui attended flight training courses at Airman Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma. Despite more than 50 hours of flying lessons, he did not pass and left without a Private Pilot Licence. This school was visited by Mohamed Atta al Sayed and Marwan al-Shehhi, who are believed to have piloted planes into the north and south towers of the World Trade Center, respectively.
***
In early August, he allegedly received $14,000 in wire transfers from Ramzi Binalshibh (originating from Düsseldorf and Hamburg, Germany). This money could have helped him pay for flight training about two weeks later at Pan-Am International Flight Academy in Eagan, Minnesota.
On August 13, Moussaoui paid $6,800 with $100 bills to receive training in a 747-400 simulator. The simulator that Pan-Am uses is operated by Northwest Aerospace Training Corporation (NATCO), a training facility affiliated with Northwest Airlines.
***
On August 16, 2001, Moussaoui was arrested by Harry Samit of the FBI in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation. Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission to search his laptop computer, but they were turned down. Other materials he had when he was arrested included two knives, 747 flight manuals, a flight simulator computer program, fighting gloves and shin guards, and a computer disk with information about crop dusting.
Laura
Last night, there was an interview (I think on NBC) with parents of a fire fighter who died at the WTC. They basically said everything you said. They’ve watched the trial every step of the way. They desperately want someone to be held accountable, but it’s obvious to them that putting Moussaoui to death wouldn’t accomplish that.
Brian
Well John, you can smile today and consider this post a milestone of success. Why, because ppGaz has commended you! Congratulations, man.
I’m shaking my head at this thread so fay, watching it devolve into a criticism over the death penalty….for Moussaoui????
Personally, I favor the detah penalty, but I’d like to see this guy live in prison. He wants death, and to be a martyr for the cause. I’d like to see him suffer the rest of the years of his life taking it up the arse by gangbangers and by crazies that make him look like a Boy Scout by comparison.
ape
good to hear some doubts about these ‘confessions’.
Davebo
Hey,
You put to death the terrorist you have, not the terrorist you want to have.
But snark aside, I agree with John. Richard Reid was supposedly supposed to be one of the 9/11 terrorists? Give me a break.
That said, I won’t shed any tears for the guy.
Historical Wit
I agree with spoonsmith, this could set a bad precident. Will not shed any tears for the guy. I would like to see the guy in jail for life. Think of all the red ass friends he would make…
tBone
Brian says:
and then:
So Brian, you’re in agreement with ppGaz. Why do you hate America, you loony moonbat?
KC
Good point John about the insane thing. I was sort of wondering that myself. With the shouting and weird muttering eminating from him, at least according to what I’ve read in the media, this guy does not sound like he’s all there.
scs
Is that really true? Is there really no justice in vengeance? Although many don’t want to admit it, justice is in reality often vengeance, it is just a vengeance that is appropriate to the crime. I mean what is a fine? What is a prison term? Is it rehabilitation? Is is restitution? No. It’s a form of vengeance. Far-lefties believe in a relativism, where no one is really wrong or right- it’s all just “your point of view”. With that kind of perspective, no wonder the death penalty is looked on as having no purpose. Well to all things in life, there is a middle ground and there are times in life when an undeniable wrong has been committed. As a soceity, we have to set standards as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable and what can be forgiven and what can not be forgiven. Plotting to kill thousands of innocent civilians is not something that can be forgiven in my book. To not give the death penalty in heinous cases like this would be to send a message that we don’t value the lives of innocent civilians, that such an act is not worth the ultimate penalty. No, sadly I’m afraid vengeance is sometimes the ultimate justice for the victims.
tired
“I’d like to see him suffer the rest of the years of his life taking it up the arse by gangbangers and by crazies that make him look like a Boy Scout by comparison.”
I see a lot of sentiments like this expressed and it really disturbs me. Being raped in jail is NOT part of the punishment. It seems to have become generally accepted and almost embraced as part of what going to jail means. I find this disturbing and am tired of people making light of it. Rape is not an acceptable form of punishment and should not be made light of. By all means lock this guy up for life, but don’t don’t do it with a wink and a nod because you think he will be essentially tortured by other inmates.
SeesThroughIt
His case/execution will also be held up as proof that the Bush administration has “done something” about 9/11. And people who won’t shed a tear about what happens to the guy but do worry about the precedent being set will be derided by the 1/3 of the country that loves Bush no matter what as being “soft on terror” or “objectively pro-terrorist” or “wanting to protect terrorists instead of eliminate them” blah blah fuckin’ blah.
tBone
Am I the only one who hears the old “Deep Thoughts” music from Saturday Night Live every time scs posts one of these little philosophical gems?
Sherard
He wants to die. He wants to be a Martyr for the cause.
All other things being equal, I say we don’t give the fucker and his band of merry suicide bombers the satisfaction. Let him rot in jail for eternity.
srv
Moussaoui is still a threat and must be punished. Not like Osama.
canuckistani
I’ll put on my amateur psychology hat and say that the guy wants to die because he feels guilty for missing out on his opportunity for martyrdom, and he would admit to anything to get it. All his co-conspirators are in Paradise, and he’s stuck here on earth because he was a useless fuckup.
I think he’s too pathetic to kill. If you want to punish him, lock him away and let him gnaw on his failure for the rest of his life.
tzs
The note of being involved with a conspiracy means that you suffer the same penalty, even if you didn’t pull the gun. Long history of this–look at Roman laws against treason. More modern version: RICO.
But yeah, this is simply a case of “suicide by jury.” The poor fool WANTS to be a martyr. I’d deny him it. Gaol for life.
The Other Steve
John, I think you’re wrong.
Moussaoui did admit to the Lindbergh Kidnapping, and being DB Cooper.
DougJ
I agree with your comments, John. I think the guy is crazy and that executing him accomplishes nothing.
scs
Hey, many of you all have some deep philosophical errors, probably brought on by the propaganda you have picked up from your socialization. I just have to set you all straight on a basic conceptual level first before anything else can be accomplished.
The Other Steve
I disagree, DougJ.
I think executing him accomplishes something.
Brian
I often agree with ppGaz. He’s da sage, dude! I worship at his stinky feet.
Moussaoui can be spared the death penalty, not because I’m against it, but because it would be a waste of good poison that can be saved for someone who doesn’t expect virgins on the other side.
tBone
Right. I look forward to your forthcoming opus, “Vengeance for Dummies.”
Brian
The readership will consist of two:
ppGaz, and tBone
Anderson
Moussaoui’s only hope now is proof that he was part of
(1) the Plame leak, or
(2) the Abramoff scandal,
so that Bush can pardon him.
Pooh
2 things: this guy is nuttier than a fruitcake. I’m not sure if he’s M’Naughton crazy or just pathological. I have no brief for him, and if he wants to go, I have no problem assisting him on his way.
However, the complete farce of the whole prosecution coaching witnesses thing gives me a great deal of pause. I’m pro-death penalty in theory, but the way we administer it sucks. And it sucks worse if the ‘penalty’ phase of the trial is not pristine.
As a side note, John, your point about ‘revenge’ is a good one. But here’s the thing, we have never as a nation, made any sort of decision as to the goal of criminal punishment. Is it rehabilitation? Retribution? Deterrence, general or specific? We kinda like all those things, but they require different techniques to implement, and we largely don’t care, so we get an unholy mismash. [/soapbox]
tBone
Actually, all snark aside, I agree with you. I’m not philosophically opposed to the death penalty, but I don’t think it’s the best choice in this case.
Pb
That’s got to be the funniest thing I’ve read all day…
Krista
Brian, why are you shaking your head when most of us are in agreement here? There seems to be a fairly strong consensus that Moussaoui wants to be a martyr, and that it’s probably better to just let him rot in prison.
The only thing is, in regards to this, the US is damned if they do, damned if they don’t. If you execute him, he’s a martyr to the cause, and terrorists can rally around his name. If he’s sent to prison, what are the odds of him living more than 2 years in there? And if he does die in prison, there’ll be another shitstorm about this guy dying while in U.S. custody, and lo and behold, terrorists will rally around his name.
Brian
Earlier in the thread I began seeing a distinct use of Moussaoui as a springboard for deriding the death penalty, and thought it was misplaced derision.
Brian
In my office, on NPR, I’m listening to “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life”, from Life of Brian (no relation to me).
Let’s sing that song for Moussaoui as he’s being walked into the the hole at San Quentin Prison (or wherever he goes). Then, play it over and over in the media, putting the joke to all of radical Islam.
I’m a modern day Goerge Cukor!
Anderson
I *think* I hear scs deliberately being funny here, even if he also means it.
bud
He obviously wants to die, so we shouldn’t accomodate him… or is he doing this because he thinks that that’s what we’ll think and not kill him… or does he think that, thinking this, we’ll kill him which is what he really wants… or….
Why do I keep thinking “Princess Bride”?,,,
scs
I think many people confuse a crappy life in prison as being stronger punishment than death. Sorry, but it is human nature to adjust to pretty much all conditions, and the conditions in American prison aren’t THAT bad. Mos. will find a bunch of willing dumbass Muslim terrorist wannabe’s in prison and he’ll be treated like royalty. He’ll probably also get a lot of fan mail from all over the world. I mean come on, if a death sentence wasn’t that bad, we wouldn’t have criminals exercising countless appeals for years to avoid it. No, death IS the ultimate penalty. And he deserves it.
scs
Okay, there was a little humor there. But you know what they say, within humour there is truth.
gratefulcub
SCS,
I have to disagree with your ‘vengeance’ statement, at least philosophically. The goal of punishment is deterrence, not vengeance. That is the debate about the death penalty: does it deter crime? So, does executing him deter future terrorists from plotting? No. They wanted to die. If caught, they would want to be executed because they can rationalize the execution as martyrdom….hello virgins. A long prison sentence would be a better tool to prevent this crime in the future. (don’t get me wrong, the idea of punishment never enters the mind in this situation).
Realistically, the death penalty is still supported by Americans for justice and vengeance, not deterrence. The public rationale has to be deterrence, since no one can go on TV and support killing a prisoner for revenge. I believe the public death penalty debate is a charade. All studies show that the death penalty doesn’t work as a deterrent, but that fact is irrelevant.
This case is a nightmare for anti-death penalty groups. They need to just let if happen and not make a stink about it. It can only hurt their cause.
Isn’t it quite obvious what happened? He wanted to be a terrorist, but he wasn’t mentally capable, so he was shut out of the plan. Now he wants more than anything to have his manhood restored by everyone believing he played a key role.
I am very anti-DP. I think ZM is crazy, and unfit for trial. If you take emotion out of this case, he would be locked up in a mental institution forever, not executed. BUT I CAN’T EVEN GET THE LEAST BIT EXCITED ABOUT THIS CASE.
We shouldn’t bring ourselves down to his level and kill for revenge. But, I really don’t care. He wasn’t a terrorist, but he wanted to be. He didn’t kill anyone, but that is his greatest failing in life.
He wants to die, everyone wants him to die…..good enough for me.
ppGaz
Brian might be the most dishonest troll we’ve had here in a long time. No, the second most, but anyway ….
Me commending John? I will wager that in the year I’ve been here I written more commends to John than anyone on this thread. I will wager that I’ve given more money to BJ than anyone on this thread. So any wisecracks on that subject can be stuffed up the appropriate asses.
As for “devolving” into an anti-death penalty thread? I made no statements about the death penalty in general. I have done so in the distant past, but my objections to the DP are based almost entirely on the fallibility of the justice system. I cannot support the use of the DP in an infallible system, even when I personally would love to take a dull fish knife and kill some of these murdering assholes with my bare hands. I also am unalterably opposed to the use of the DP when the offender was a juvenile, or mentally ill or retarded, or incapacitated.
In the Moussaoui case, I can’t see that the DP serves any purpose other than satisfying a blood lust. I am not above a good blood lust. On 9-12-01 I might have gladly killed the sonofabitch myself. But, that was then, and this is now.
Brian
Hey, let’s keep your personal life out of this. I never said we should inflict double penetration on the guy.
scs
Are those Paypal donations anonymous? Just curious.
scs
Well, vengeance is deterrence to others, no?
Krista
Never let it be said that Brian has no class.
Jim Allen
No.
scs
To further expand on that, I don’t really believe in the concept of deterrence. I mean we already have plenty of harsh penalties on the books, in addition to the more basic ideas of morality, conscience and public disapproval, and people do wrong, evil crap all the time- they always have and they always will. People will not be deterred from a wrong act they want to engage in, if they think they can get away with it and if their conscience doens’t bother them on it. Deterrence isn’t what it’s about. Let’s just admit it- it’s about good old fashioned vengeance.
ppGaz
Not sure, I avoid Pay Pal whenever I can. I’ve used the Amazon thing and I think it bills me the same way I would get billed for any Amazon purchase. In at least one case I remember attaching a personal msg to the thing at pay time. That was a long time ago, I don’t remember the details.
I don’t care much about the anonymity angle. I think I am at around the $150-200 total level, and it would be more except that my wife thinks its an insane activity and gives me the evil eye when I send the money. She’s right of course, but that doesn’t stop me. I mean, she insists on leather seats in her car which cost a HELLUVA lot more than a few blog donations. So there you are.
But all seriousness aside … I think that it’s reasonable for me to throw $100 a year to a resource that provides me this much entertainment. It’s the best bargain out there. And I give money to no other blogs.
gratefulcub
Exactly. How can we justify state sponsored vengeance? How can we claim to be moral superiors when we murder the guilty to make ourselves feel better? Especially with a system the has proven time and again to be a bit less than 100% accurate. We take revenge on innocents on occasion.
slickdpdx
The goal is not only deterrence. We could impose draconian penalties for even the mildest crimes and achieve deterrence. Why don’t we? Because the penalty doesn’t fit the crime – the violation of our sense of retribution trumps our need for deterrence. But that is also why more serious crimes deserve more serious punishments…
Does all this require the death penalty? Reasonable minds can differ. But running down retribution is foolish.
neil
As I said in the last thread: it seems pretty gruesome that everybody except for Moussaoui and the government says Moussaoui was aggrandizing himself and he really wasn’t supposed to be on a plane on 9/11. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed revealed under interrogation that Moussaoui and Reid, since they were European-born, would carry out the next stage of the attack since Arab-born Muslims would arouse too much suspicion.
A few years ago, I don’t think that I would have believed that government lawyers would be working together with al-Qaida operatives to mislead the American public about 9/11. But it’s all happening right in the open.
Llelldorin
In this particular case, there’s a real risk that the death penalty could be spun abroad as evidence that we feared Mossaoui too much to let him live. The death penalty conveys an odd sort of respect that always strikes me as fundamentally wrong: the death penalty leaves the feeling that the comndemned man was “too dangerous to let live.”
We shouldn’t convey that sort of respect even to murderers, and we certainly shouldn’t give the impression that we have any respect whatsoever for a pathetic lunatic like Mossaoui.
Prison has the opposite connotation–one of contempt. That’s the right signal to send here. Al Quaida is nothing but a criminal gang using borrowed religious symbolism to dress up simple thuggery as holy war. I’d love to see every last one of them rotting in federal prisons, where they can play holy warrior before an unimpressed audience of forgers and drug dealers to their heart’s content.
ImJohnGalt
Llelldorin, I like the cut of your jib.
The problem is, the right wing fucktards have so pooh-poohed the idea that the best way to fight terrorism is as a police action rather than a war, that this point of view is now anathema to the governing party and its supporters.
Somehow as the propaganda has been catapulted, the idea of prosecuting terrorism as a crime rather than as a war has been framed as the effeminate, french viewpoint – I’d love them to say that to some of my pals in 52 division.
slickdpdx
Llelldorin: That must be why the terrorists prefer “imprisoning” to beheading.
neil
slickdpdx: That’s a false equivalence if I’ve ever heard one. For one thing, a kidnapped hostage is not someone who’s been a nuisance to the kidnappers — he/she is like a stolen piece of property.
For another thing, where the hell did you get the idea that terrorists are brave? I can’t even blame Rummy for this one, because he keeps saying they’re desperate dead-enders. But they certainly are not operating with courage from a position of strength, and it’s bizarre to me that anyone would think that.
slickdpdx
Neil: I have absolutely no idea what you are writing about.
slickdpdx
One last comment, I swear.
How can some of you countenance locking this guy in a cage for the rest of his life, he’s just crazy. Right?
slickdpdx
Lledorin: If killing a person sends the message that we were too afraid to let the person live (not sure why that’s bad, but whatever) what message is sent by imprisoning that person?
All: I will in the future, make every effort to confine my remarks to a single post.
gratefulcub
Crazy, not JUST crazy.
Just crazy makes it sound like it isn’t that big of a deal, he is just a little crazed, can be rehabbed, and we can forgive him. No one here is saying that he is JUST crazy.
I realize that you were phrasing it in a way to make it seem some of us were saying “ZM is just a little crazy, we shouldn’t be so mean to him.”
~Strawman
Tim F.
Leather seats in Arizona? Ouchie.
Vlad
I think that Moussaoui is about as crazy as Guiteau was, and I think he’ll end up the same way, for the same reasons.
Llelldorin
Well, no, he’s not just crazy. He’s crazy and dangerous. The fact that someone is crazy doensn’t remove our obligation to protect those he might well kill if released.
Even to liberals, “mentally deranged” isn’t the same thing as “cute and fuzzy”, you know.
As to your other comment, terrorists aren’t using beheadings as part of their justice system. They’re demonstrating that they’re scary and dangerous. That’s what criminal mobs do. It probably works even better inside Iraq: “We beheaded Americans, so what do you think we’ll do to you if you don’t help us out?”
The false equivalence that you just appealed to is actively dangerous. Do you actually believe that the United States of America is morally equivalent to Al Quaida? If not, what on earth do the barbarous actions a bunch of masked thugs have to do with a debate about the US justice system?
Tony Alva
Siding with SCS on this one. Vengeance is as human an emotion as the need to breath air. When someone strikes you, you have two thoughts: The first is to duck, the second is to strike back. Anyone who says different is a liar. This guy won’t mean a thing to the shitheads rallying for another big 9/11 type attrocity. There are now thousands of martyrs for them to emulate already. Do you think they’d actually give this guy anymore air time than the others? Bullshit. Martyrdom has a short chart life since a new one usurps the last so quicky. This guy would fall out of the top 100 faster than the Spice Girls last record. Push the plunger on the syringe and let’s not have to hear from him or his lawyers ever again.
scs
Alright. Okay, lets round up the posse then.
slickdpdx
I understood the post and some commenters on this thread to be arguing that Moussaoui was crazy and could not REALLY be a co-conspirator in the 9-11 attack. I beleive John’s language was – Second, I think the real reason he will be sentenced to death is not because of his actual guilt, not because of his actual complicity in 9/11, but because of a nascent bloodlust regarding all things WTC. I am particularly against the death penalty as a form of base retribution. Third, I am not completely sure he is even sane. I haven’t been paying close attention, but hasn’t he confessed to just about everything but the Lindbergh kidnapping?
Llelldorin: Moussaoui = crazy and dangerous. Slick = dangerous. At least we agree that he is dangerous and I’m not crazy!
If someone will volunteer how to blockquote, I’ll do it next time.
Pb
Tony Alva,
Yeah, “fight or flight response”, everyone knows that.
No, that’s more like “evade or fight”. Close, though. There’s more out there than just aikido and karate–there’s also the option to run away.
That’s a lot of liars.
Pb
slickdpdx,
<blockquote>stuff</blockquote>
becomes
Also, I hear there are even buttons and stuff, to make it easy, but I wouldn’t know anything about that.
P.S. nested blockquotes don’t.
ppGaz
All this talk about messages, and deterrents, and how things are seen by other peoples and countries … irrelevant, and dishonest, too. I don’t care how somebody in another country looks at it. Let that person worry about his own damned country. I don’t have to prove the righteousness of my country to them. Fuck them.
It’s about me. It’s about us. I don’t have to execute this guy because I have no need to do so. I am not some sort of vengeful righter-of-wrongs that needs to employ the government to carry out my vengeful fantasies for me.
I’m not afraid of this crazy little man. I’m not afraid of any of them. He’s just another crazy sociopath … the prisons are full of them. So what? What difference if one more crazy sociopath goes there? How does it make me better to beat my chest and say “Yeah, push the syringe?”
I am not afraid enough of him to have to kill him, and I’m not afraid of him enough to empower an opportunistic government to kill him and beat its chest about it, either.
“Remember the lessons of 9-11” said the great George Fucking W. Bush. Okay, here’s my lesson: Stop killing people to make points or to get your way. Whether it’s one, or a thousand … just stop it.
StupidityRules
scs uttered:
Executing a failed suicide bomber, that would really work as a detterance for other wouldbe suicide bombers. It’s a bit like capital punishment for suicide attempts…
And about vengeance, isn’t that one of the reasons that Iraq got invaded?
Also, good thing for Moussaoui that he wasn’t caught stomping a cat to death. Since that’s a crime John thinks you should get executed for…
Since I’m personally 100% against capital punishment, I’m against it in this case too. Even if the crime he was accused of actually was one that’s punishable by death. Which it isn’t in this case.
Brian
Hey, another Lefty commenter. Can always count on them, can’t we?
ppGaz
Well, you haven’t been to the ppGaz Desert Survival School.
One of our topics is “APS: Always Park in Shade.”
You are talking to the master of shade-parking. I can find shade and tell you how to maximize shady parking at almost any location. I can point you to a large supermarket that has 24 x 7 cooled underground parking that is always available because even after ten years almost nobody knows about it!
Being happy in the desert between Memorial Day and Labor Day is all about the study of shade.
Next time you’re in Phoenix in the summer, look me up and I will give you the Shade Tour.
ppGaz
Oh, I forgot: It’s $39.95 plus S&H on the materials.
fwiffo
Vengance is the wrong reason to do anything. People like you remind me of moralizing Christians that insist that fear of God is the only think keeping people from behaving like animals.
Let go of that hate for a while and you might manage to accomplish something both pragmatic and moral.
Brian
Great. I’m coming over now to punch you in the face, break your legs, steal your bank info and your SSN, eat your food, take your car, and burn your peace signs.
fwiffo
Self-defense is a perfectly reasonable reason to kick a person’s ass. Big difference from vengance.
StupidityRules
Brian said:
There can be justice without vengance. Just so you know.
Llelldorin
slickdpdx said:
Different sorts of danger. I doubt that you’d behead me, for example.
I didn’t say that you, personally, were dangerous, I said that your argument was. Your argument drew a direct parallel between the way we treat convicted criminals and the way terrorists treat their hostages. Isn’t that precisely the parallel that the terrorists want? Why on earth should we be helping it along?
Brian
Vengeance definition (hat tip Webster’s)
“punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense”
Self-defense and vengeance are not distinguishable.
Pb
Brian,
Go for it, it’ll be fun to watch you get your ass handed to you.
Brian
What a violent mentality you have. Go read some poetry.
fwiffo
A couple more for webster:
self–de·fense noun. – “the use of force to defend oneself”
de·fend transitive verb. – “to drive danger or attack away from”
In short, self-defense is the use of force to drive danger or attack away from oneself.
If you can’t see the difference between that, and the cited definition of vengeance, I don’t know if it could possibly be made simpler.
If you came to my house to attack me, and I fought back or found some way to restrain you, I’d be defending myself. If you came to my house and attack me, then later I go to your house and attack you to punish you for attacking me earlier, that’s vengeance.
Or another scenario… If you came to my house and attacked me, and I had used a taser or something to immobilize you, then tied you up securely until the police came, that would obviously be self-defense. If I started punching you in the face while you were still tied up and no longer a threat, that would obviously be vengeance, and obviously not self-defense.
Of course, if you came to my house to attack me, you’d be committing a crime. Society would then, in its own act of self-defense, put a dangerous criminal in jail.
The Other Steve
I’m going to side in the middle on this one. Penalty is deterrance. I am not sure vengeance is.
Stalin supported vengeance. You gave him a bad haircut… off to the firing squad with you. It didn’t really stop the bad haircuts, and it definately didn’t stop people feeling his government was oppressive.
And in the end, he was poisoned by his intelligence chief, Beria. Why? Because if you fear vengeance, your best bet is to get to the guy first.
Justice acts as a deterrance.
Justice is an even hand, a proper response, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
I’m uncertain if the death penalty is appropriate for Mad Moussaoui. I also don’t really give a shit about what anybody else thinks about us. It’s not clear he’s a direct conspirator. He knew something was up, and he knew many of the people involved, but it’s not clear he knew Atta and could lead Authorities to him. Most of what he knows now comes from history, not his knowledge at the time(like the Reid claims).
On the other hand, it wouldn’t trouble me if he was dead.
ppGaz
Really? “I shot him in self defense”, then, is the same thing as “I shot him for vengeance?”
Good luck with that in court.
Stupid fuck.
The Other Steve
Self-defense is not vengeance.
If you tried to do those things, I’d beat the living shit out of you until you stopped.
Vengeance, would involve me then tying you up in the basement and using an electric cattle prod to help you remember your animal instincts.
Brian
I’m just going by the definition, wise guy. Not some Perry ppGaz Mason definition.
fwiffo
And you obviously don’t understand the defintion you cited. Retaliation, by definition, is something you do after the fact. Self-defense, is an action taken to prevent harm (or further harm) upon oneself.
Do you understand the difference between the prefixes pre- and re-?
Brian
You wouldn’t retaliate against this? If I do all these things and walk away from you, you’ll stand there and call the cops?
Good luck.
fwiffo
OK, so we’re past self-defense and vengeance being the same thing then? Or are you still confused?
Now, if you came to my place and did all those things, and somehow I couldn’t stop you, well… You’d be driving away in my car. So, in that case, yes, I would stand there and call the cops. Or sit there, since standing won’t work with broken legs. And I’d be hungry too, you bastard. I might also call my neighbors and warn them that there’s some crazy arsonist moron running around in my car eating my peanut butter cups.
What else could I do? Should I not call the cops, and instead get a posse and go to your house to kick your ass? Go there myself with my broken legs and try to beat you up?
For the sake of argument let’s leave the car and broken legs out of it. If I had reason to believe that you were likely to further harm me or someone else (and your actions would probably make such an assumption reasonable,) I would use necessary force restrain you until the cops arrived. Again, that’s a defensive action, not a retaliatory one.
If I had no reason to believe you were still a threat (unlikely given the actions), then no, I would not retaliate. Or if I did, it would be an emotional and unreasonable reaction, and depending on exactly what I did, probably a crime.
There is a specific legal standard for what constitutes self-defense, i.e. Webster’s second definition under that heading:
self–de·fense noun. – an affirmative defense (as to a murder charge) alleging that the defendant used force necessarily to protect himself or herself because of a reasonable belief that the other party intended to inflict great bodily harm or death
If you exceed that standard, it’s a crime.
ppGaz
.
That’s right. “Self defense” is a fictional concept, indistiguishable from “vengeance” by the layman.
You know, when you’re digging yourself into a deep hole, sometimes it’s a good idea to just put down the shovel.
Ah, never mind. Go ahead and dig. Who gives a fuck?
ppGaz
Thread summary: Brian takes the opportunity of the Moussaoui thread to pimp himself as a real tough guy.
Strangeley, at that point, interest in the thread dwindles to nothing.
Note to self: That Brian is a real tough guy.
Bob In Pacifica
John Cole, you missed the testimony. It was raining that night. After Mrs. Lindbergh fell asleep he used a ladder to get to the second story window.
slickdpdx
PB
slickdpdx
PB
slickdpdx
Sorry I hit “Enter” instead of shift.
pb: thanks for the information on blockquotes.
llell: i didn’t take offense, i was just finding agreement where i could get it. is the name welsh? how is it pronounced?