Go read Frank Rich. Of course, what he says doesn’t count because he is a hater.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.
This really is a full service blog.
Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.
Celebrate the fucking wins.
Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?
The fight for our country is always worth it. ~Kamala Harris
Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.
When you’re in more danger from the IDF than from Russian shelling, that’s really bad.
Black Jesus loves a paper trail.
A norm that restrains only one side really is not a norm – it’s a trap.
Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!
“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”
Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.
Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?
They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.
Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.
Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.
You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.
Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.
Accountability, motherfuckers.
The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.
Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?
This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.
Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” is supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.
John S.
He really is a nasty prick, and even though I am disgusted with Hillary and her campaign, this nauseates me more:
Fuck you, Frank Rich.
Punchy
Sir Cole, please do us all a favor and add that Amy Proctor chick to your daily perusal and update us accordingly. I haven’t seen that level of stupid in a LONG time, and I’m not sure I’ve ever laughed so much on a right-wing website as I did reading her comments.
Her ramblings make Ed and Dan Rhiel look Mensa-like.
Redhand
Rich is spot-on.
Sojourner
John Cole:
Are you going to hate Nader as much as you hate Hillary?
Bob In Pacifica
Wow. Talk about tearing someone a new asshole. But before I comment I want to see how Jeralyn and Big D are reacting.
calipygian
Frank Rich is an asshole. But he is our asshole. Barely.
I don’t know. Maybe Frank Rich HAS found Jesus. But, eight years ago, when it counted, Frank Rich was just another Maureen Dowd Villager who didn’t see any difference policy-wise between Al Gore and George Bush and was more concerned that Gore was a nerd who deserved a wedgie than a fair hearing in Florida.
Like I said. Maybe Frank Rich has grown up. I don’t know. He can still go fuck himself though.
Jay C
“Hater”? Geez, by Frank Rich standards, this column is a masterpiece of reason, thoughtfulness and measured emotion (except, oddly, for his very last sentence, which seems a strange non sequitur).
AkaDad
No, because Nader isn’t a woman.
dougie smooth
Not that this is unexpected, but Dowd’s columns have become a tennis match between slamming Clinton and emasculating Obama. Here’s some of her Obambi rhetoric from today’s column, where she has dispensed with the oblique wordsmithing (see this one) and made it the overt theme:
“the more feminine management style of her male rival”
“a more nurturing and inclusive style”
“a soft-power sewing circle approach”
“Less towel-snapping and more towel color coordinating, less steroids and more sensitivity.”
“a less autocratic leadership style, with an emphasis on behavior women excel at”
“She tried once more to cast Obama as a weak sister”
“Obama tapped into his inner chick and turned the other cheek”
“While Obama looked at her warily, even fearfully,”
“Like a prudent housekeeper, Obama spent the cash he raised”
What a cunt.
calipygian
It’s Rich’s way of saying that Hillary has wasted untold amounts of money courting the blue color vote and fits in with what some union leader said in Ohio – that Obama supporters are latte-drinking, Prius driving liberals:
The implication being, of course, that if Hillary really were a liberal, she would have spent that money at Starbucks. Or Peets.
Liberal Masochist
Nader quote from CNN piece on Nader entering the race:
Nader also wrote off any suggestions that his entry into the race could draw enough votes from the Democratic candidate to help the Republican win. “If the Democrats can’t landslide the Republicans this year, they ought to just wrap up, close down, emerge in a different form,” he said.
Agree with that 100 pct.
calipygian
So what’s Nader’s point? Does he think this is a horse race that needs handicapping? It’s not like that people’s LIVES from Baghdad, to Camp Speicher, to Tehran, to Pristina, to Tonopah depend on the presidential race this year.
A vote for McCain is a vote for 100 years of occupation in Iraq, a vote for bombing Iran, a vote for business as usual with regards to climate change and the hydrocarbon based economy and a vote for the Bush tax structure.
A vote for Nader is a vote for McCain.
Dave_Violence
Man, that took a lot of energy on the part of Frank Rich. Holy cow, he worked hard. …one would think that he’d do the NYT better by concentrating on attacking the GOP rather than the Donkey Party. Sheesh, with Krugman and Rich playing good cop/bad cop with the Dems, they’ll assure a win for Al Gore.
ThymeZone
Catch our Gov. Napolitano on FTN this morning?
Really would like to see her run for president.
ThymeZone
I only gave Rich a quick read, and he appears to be spot on in his sum-up of the Clinton campaign’s failures, except that I didn’t see a reference to her as the poster girl for complete and abject failure to get healthcare reform when she had the chance …. thereby relegating us to at least 15 years, so far, of third-world healthcare access for many Americans.
The Clinton campaign may go down in history as a bigger flameout than her healthcare reform campaign when she was President by Injection.
Conservatively Liberal
Wrong, it is because Nader has balls. He has forgotten what they were for, but at least he has them!
While I do not think much of Rich, he is right on this one. She was never the inevitable candidate, that was just trash talk on her part. But her campaign plans were her own worst enemy. The ground rules have changed, and they completely missed it. Her last generation copy reference (Xerox) to Obama and his speech shows how dated her message is.
She is a 20th century girl trying to win in the 21st century. The fat lady has been singing for awhile now but Hillary is wearing ear plugs.
Sojourner
He would do the country a service by attacking the GOP. It’s getting harder and harder to distinguish the right-wing newspapers, blogs, etc. from the non-partisan or left-wing ones.
It’s depressing to watch the Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
ThymeZone
Barring the unforseen, you are looking at a McCain-Obama contest, and a 60-40 or better win for the Democrat in November.
Relax and enjoy the year. It’s going to be great.
Liberal Masochist
Also – I think Rich really dislikes the Clintons now and he is attempting in his small way to ensure an Obama triumph. Rest assured, once the MUP has sewn this thing up, Rich will aim both barrels at the GOP.
Sojourner
Maybe. It depends, in part, on how many people take the position that some of my friends do, which is in response to the increasingly nasty fight among the Dems, they’re talking about voting for McCain. Or just staying home.
John Cole
I would ask yourself- “Where has all the nastiness come from?”
Because I haven’t seen the Obama campaign write the GOP attack book the way I have sen the Clinton campaign smear Obama. And I am not nutpicking nasty things Clinton supporters have said. I am talking about their campaigns.
ThymeZone
So, your friends would decide such a thing before we have even had the general election campaign? Before they have listened to McCain for three months? Seen the debates?
I don’t think I would put much stock in the utterings of those folks.
It’s going to be a very interesting year. Not many are going to remember this week, six months from now.
Sojourner
I agree. It’s the Obama supporters who are doing the dirty work (and I’m not saying with Obama’s encouragement). Which is a shame because, frankly, I’m finding it difficult to tell the difference between what’s coming from Obama and what’s coming from someone else. And I’ve been watching this campaign more than most.
It’s particularly jarring because Obama, more than anyone else, has tried to stay above the shit. But his supporters are doing their damnedest to pull him down.
It’s a stupid thing to do.
Sojourner
Why are you surprised? When the candidate one supports is repeatedly beat up ad naueseum, that candidate’s supporters feel attacked as well. So they should then turn around and support the candidate they feel attacked by?
Why would you expect otherwise?
ThymeZone
Wow, I have no idea what campaign you are watching. From where I sit, the Obama campaign has done more with less negativity than any successful primary campaign at this level I’ve seen in decades.
Nothing like that be said for the Clinton campaign. They’ve tried a variety of negative thrusts, and unless I am missing something, they’ve all failed miserably. Which makes them not only negative, but foolish.
I can’t imagine how anyone could see it any other way, but of course, I haven’t heard from myiq and lukasiak yet this morning.
Nikki
Would someone please point me to the evil Obama supporters who are making the Clinton supporters want to vote for McCain?
Liberal Masochist
Agree with TZ – there is still a long way to go before November. Most voters will not remember the petty squabbling between the Dems now. Overall, this is still much cleaner on the Dem side than anything we have seen the past several cycles. That’s what people will remember. I think the internet board echo chamber effect (in all its forms) gets those who frequent these sites thinking that most Americans are as visceral about the rhetoric, tactics etc. as they are. Most Americans are not. Broad impressions are getting formed and nothing more. They states that have already had primaries are seeing ad spend drop toward zero and the chatter scale way back.
I live in Texas and up until a few weeks ago, you would have never known a pivotal primary was coming up unless you sought the coverage out for yourself. The internet is a “stateless” medium and every day is primary day.
ThymeZone
Well, you are victim to the media’s short-term memory effects. This is standard big time politics, nothing unusual about it. This is nothing compared to the slugfest between Kennedy and Johnson. The acrimony from that fight still lingers.
Bush-McCain in 2000, ugly and disgusting. Bush One and Reagan. They became running mates.
On the grand scale of things, this is a pretty well behaved and mild mannered campaign season, really. The kind of talk you are hearing is quite literally just nonsense.
ThymeZone
Yet another of the very well-crafted observations I have seen on this blog lately …. which I will have to steal.
Spot on.
Sojourner
Read what I wrote. I’m talking about supporters, not the campaign. This blog is one example of that. The hatred that is expressed for Clinton is really not that different from what appears on Red State and other right-wing blogs. Which is one reason why I don’t read those blogs and will probably walk away from this one.
For people who were politically aware in the 90’s, it has that deja vu feeling. A lot of the attacks on the Clintons during the 90’s ultimately were unproved. Even after $80m of tax payer dollars were spent. These attacks turn off a lot of people who don’t care to find out if the current attacks are legitimate or not.
And let’s not forget Michelle Obama’s famous comment that she wasn’t sure if she would vote for Clinton if Clinton got the nomination. And you’re wondering why Clinton supporters might not care to show up at the polls if Obama wins?
cleek
examples, please ?
Liberal Masochist
Permission granted. I steal (ahem… appropriate) from this blog all the time. I only started reading blogs of any sort about three months ago (the SN! Liberal Fascism hammering around X-Mas really got me started).
I think what’s funny is that for the most part you get pretty insightful and educational discourse here (if a little shrill at times) and then you go talk to family or co-workers and you get the crazy look from them like you obviously spend too much time thinking about this stuff.
ThymeZone
Oh .. okay, well, all I can say to that is, the blogs are not representative of anything but the blogs. I hate to say this to my fellow blog addicts, but this is not the real world in here.
The vast majority of voters have never seen, much less posted to, a political blog. Even Dkos with its “huge” viewership doesn’t reach even close to one percent of the population. And I think Kos probably has more traffic than all the other political blogs put together. I don’t have those numbers handy but I think I am pretty much in the ballpark.
Blogs are for bloggers. Bloggers will not contribute much to the outcome of the election, except as a kind of information adjunct. This is a very inward-focussed, self-interested and navel-gazing world here. Self-referential, dominated by performance art. Infotainment.
Sad to say but I think we are pretty inconsequential. No offense to those of you who think you are consequential.
John Cole
Are you smoking rock? Seriously? Name one Democratic site that has been anywhere NEAR as vicious as Hilaryis44.org, taylormarsh, or talkleft. And Andrew Sullivan does not count. Hell, I even spent the first six months of the campaign pissing off Obama supporters and defending Hillary.
I hate to break this to you, but when Obama supporters point out Clintonian attacks (see plagiarism bullshit, not ready to lead, jesse jackson won SC too!), that is not attacking Clinton, that is pointing out her bullshit.
ThymeZone
Michelle is not running for president. I don’t remember the full context of that remark, but having heard her talk at length, I know that she is a strong-minded, extremely smart woman who speaks her mind and isn’t politic in her speech, not a contrived word passes from her lips. I like that, even if I don’t agree with her.
If your genteel friends can’t stomach a little of that without fleeing to McCain, then all due respect, you need better friends.
ThymeZone
Exactly.
This campaign has been notably free of any real personal attacks or animosity. And I think that is a harbinger of what the Dem general election campaign will be like. And I further think that the negative munitions the GOP is probably piling up now for that fight, will backfire on them big time. It’s a new season, the old shit won’t work.
Liberal Masochist
TZ – exactly. “You read a political blog? A what?” is the default response I get from the 99 pct. I mentioned the “Magical Unity Pony” and tried to explain how what it is and how funny it is, and I had to give up and just forward the Balloon Juice link with the rainbows and candy shooting out of its ass description…
The self interested/self importance vibe over here though is nothing compared to nearly all of the right wing blogs. Jeesh, it’s like after years of having their nutty ideas roundly ignored, they signed up for high speed internet access and now they are saying “I finally got a voice and by God people WILL listen to me now” or something… That’s the most pathetic thing about the cheeto dust set.
ThymeZone
Three months of listening to John Mcpain and his message of war, anti-hope, tax cuts in the face of financial pain and nothing else, rehash of his Vietname heroics, and his 72-year-old outlook on life (yeah, I know Im the oldest poster here, shut up) …. three months of that crap and I GUARANTEE you that your Hillary-supporting friends will go out and vote for Obama. Absolutely, money in the bank.
You guys have no idea what a horrible candidate McCain is going to be. Trust me.
wvng
I really thought Rich was pretty reasonable in this column (as opposed to most the his recent columns). Obama has run an objectively better campaign, and Hillary’s group made (and continues to make) a lot of tactical and strategic errors. At the end of the day, she is a fine candidate, and Obama is an exceptional candidate. Quite a problem for the Dems to have.
Sojourner
I don’t read those sites. I don’t go to the hard core sites. I don’t read Kos, I don’t read Red State. I chose this blog because it used to be somewhat middle of the road, rather than an echo chamber.
I watch MSNBC, which means I get to listen to Tweety bash Clinton with great enthusiasm. I read the NYT. I stopped reading Dowd because of her hatred for the Clintons. But I do read Frank Rich, and he’s certainly an enthusiastic Clinton basher.
Look, John. It’s great that you’ve turned in your Bush supporter card for Obama. Just understand that not everyone is a member in good standing of the cult of Obama. I started off as a Dodd supporter, then Edwards. I am a lukewarm Obama supporter because I’m pissed that Clinton couldn’t be bothered to vote on a key civil rights bill.
But this attack attack attack mentality makes me question whether I really want to be associated with the cult of Obama. A position that quite a few of my friends share who are much less interested in politics than I am.
Jen
So much repetition, so few examples.
By the by, Michelle never hesitated about “voting” for Clinton, it was “working” for her campaign. There’s, well, there’s a pretty big difference.
Sojourner
TZ: you missed the point. You can’t exactly criticize Hillary supporters for not supporting Obama if Obama’s wife shares the same philosophy.
Sojourner
Jesus Christ, Jen. Look at the topics on this blog over the last few weeks. How many of them address the “evil” Clinton campaign and its attempts to “steal” the nomination?
The Grand Panjandrum
Rats! Well, I guess it’s back to Second Life.
Agreed, but with a caveat. The Obama website is a tour-de-force for user functionality and friendliness. More than 40,000 supporter blogs have been started on the site. Most of them are not filled with content of much importance, but hundreds of these little bloglets are very active and used to organize local supporters. They also have a page where supporters can go to print their own campaign signs and literature. I’ve read several blog posts, at the campaign website, where supporters have held house parties or online fundraisers of their own, to gather funds for printing said signs and literature. Add to that the ease of donating directly to the campaign online, and you have an unprecedented mastery of online technology.
Couple that with a traditional, and highly aggressive, ground game and it is no wonder Clinton is taking a beating.
The Obama campaign has out thought and out organized the Clinton campaign. Period. He’s a better candidate for that reason. Now we’ll just have to see if all this translates to being a good President. (If he wins, of course.)
ThymeZone
Well, I am often guilty not of missing points, but of refuting them and appearing to have missed them. Missing and refuting are …. different. My style makes it appear that I am not paying attention to your point, whereas, I am, but I am trying to make a different point.
All due respect to those friends that you mention, but they are the ones missing the point. The point is that this is politics, and it’s hardball. The point is that this campaign isn’t nasty at all, and if they think it is, then they haven’t been paying attenion for the last …. I dunno … two hundred years. The point is that Obama is probably going to be your nominee and when he is, the wave of popular enthusiasm for him is going to grow, not shrink, and he will be running against an old fart who hasn’t had an original idea since 1965, and sounds like your mean school principal. We’re going to kick his ass all the way back to Arizona worse than we did it to Barry Goldwater.
Relax and enjoy it. It’s going to be fun.
dslak
Which office is Michelle Obama running for, by the way?
Also, why can’t two people running for office against each other say nice things about the other all the time?
The fact that you people think this is some kind of election that involves critiquing the views of the opposition makes me not want to read this blog anymore. I’m gonna go to http://www.hillaryis44.com!
Jen
For the last time, she didn’t say vote. The question was “Could you see yourself working to support Hillary Clinton…” Google it.
Cain
Sojourner,
You should re-read what TZ said. Blogs don’t matter. Making judgements based on supporters on the internet is foolish. This blog is pretty much as it’s stated “ill informed banter”. Take it as such because a lot of what on the internet is.
cain
Jen
You’re saying that your friends are not voting for Obama because of the commentariat of Balloon Juice.
We mock Clinton supporters a lot. I’m not sure how you could go to Hillaryis44 and not do that. But the genuine criticism is reserved for her campaign, herself, and her staff. I’m asking for parallel examples from the Obama CAMPAIGN. As has been previously requested.
Cain
In terms of nastiness, I’ve seen state senate races more nasty. You should have seen some of the oregon house and senate races. Ouch.
cain
dslak
The nastiness being spewed forth by the likes of Jen and Cain is simply another reason why I have to leave this blog.
Jen
By the way, the Clinton campaign has made no secret that they were going to use any means necessary to try to secure this nomination. Be it undemocratic, a retroactive re-writing of the rules, or insulting 40 states, no manipulation of the system was off the table. I personally think that’s extremely fair game for criticism.
Jen
TZ prefers “dishonesty”, like my compliments for his governor.
Jen
Really, it’s just to convince you that I’m a girl.
dslak
That’s because all you want to do is attack Hillary, just like you did in the 90s! If people won’t stop criticizing Hillary and the actions of her campaign, how can I possibly vote for Obama?
Sojourner
Folks, I mentioned a couple of other non-blog examples which are read/viewed by non-bloggers. The NYT is read throughout the country. MSNBC is watched throughout the country. They tend to attract lefties, otherwise known as the base. Otherwise known as the people most likely to actually get out and vote. Otherwise known as the people most likely, like me, to work in a campaign, as I did four years ago for Kerry.
I’m not going to change anyone’s mind. I’m simply providing one small data point which, ultimately, doesn’t matter, because it’s only from liberal country (yes, there is liberal country) in Ohio. The good news for the Obama cultists is that Ohio doesn’t really matter, does it?
ACK
Name one Democratic site that has been anywhere NEAR as vicious as Hilaryis44.org, taylormarsh, or talkleft.
Thank you for saying that. On one of the sites this past week — I can’t remember which, they all blend together after awhile, but it was either Talk Left, MyDD or Taylor Marsh they were talking about how terrible Josh Marshall, Kevin Drum and Kos have been towards Clinton.
Bizarre to say the least.
Josh and Kevin are some of the most mild mannered, even handed examples of blogs that you can find. And Kos himself hasn’t been anywhere near hyperbolic — some of the diarists, yes, but Kos himself. Please.
Jen
Of course it does. Obama wants all the states to follow the pony. Besides, he’s closing in on her fast.
Jen
You didn’t name anything coming out of the campaign.
dslak
You can’t get much more left-wing than the NYT and MSNBC. Just ask Noam Chomsky.
TheFountainHead
The real question is, how have good democrats gone bad? How can good democrats, you know, the kind that loathe the cognitive dissonance, theatrics, and hypocrisy of the Bush Administration be backing Hillary Clinton at this point. She’s pretty much doing the left-wing version of the same thing!
dslak
Thanks to the video that TheFountainHead just linked to, I will no longer be viewing any videos on YouTube. How long do Obama supporters have to go to post a video that shows Hillary to be a hypocrite?! Unlike your saint, Obama, Hillary doesn’t have any flaws or make any mistakes deserving of scorn!
4tehlulz
The stupid, it burns!
The Other Steve
There was an article sometime ago in newsweek that talked about her experience in the Whitehouse, and it mentioned how loyal the people around her were and such. It was the same cult of personality that Bush created around himself.
I’ve always assumed that yeah Hillary might be like Bush, but at least she’s smarter.
But like Frank Rich notes in this article, I’m not so sure now. She’s actually been pretty damn incompetent in terms of running a campaign. If you can’t run a campaign and not know what is going on, how the fuck are you going to run a country? A campaign is SMALL… incredibly SMALL by comparison. Absolutely TINY, SUPER SMALL.
The Other Steve
Are you predicting what Mark Penn will say when Hillary loses?
dslak
Now Obama, there’s a cult of personality! He’s popular, just like Hitler was. And I think we all know what popular people like Hitler do . . .
wasabi gasp
Score!
Sojourner
Which may be because I specifically said the campaign is NOT engaging in this. It’s the supporters.
Perhaps you should read what I write before you attack me.
dslak
‘Score!’ is a vulgar term used by men to indicate their successful seduction and violation of women like Hillary to each other. Go ahead and vote for Obama, the misogynists’ candidate!
Sojourner
Okay, I get it. Questioning anything relating to Obama means that person is stupid.
Interesting. Progressives used to be known for being independent and thinking for themselves, unlike those on the authoritarian right.
How times change.
dslak
I don’t know what I did, but I think I may have broken the thread.
dslak
You show that strawman whose boss, Sojourner! Careful! He’s got a nasty, misogynistic right hook.
Jen
I read what you wrote. I guess I just couldn’t believe why, exactly, someone would penalize a candidate because of his supporters who he has no control over.
John Cole
Woah, woah, woah. If you used Clinton and Bush in the same paragraph, Hillary supporters would go insane.
As it is, I am not worshipping Obama, I think he is the best chance to win, and given two candidates with very similar platforms, that sort of seems like the better choice to make. I, too, supported Dodd. His candidacy failed, so now I support Obama. That doesn’t make me in the tank for him or uncritical of him, and it doesn’t mean that I am wrong about all the shit the Clinton camp has been flinging.
Believe me, when I am aware that a politician is pulling some bullshit, I won’t think twice before turning on them.
dslak
If he has no control over his followers, why is he considered to be the Messiah?
VOTE HILLARY!
TheFountainHead
Obama finally came out and said it, in no uncertain terms.
TR
Why’s it always got to be a strawman? Misogynist.
dslak
Since it’s an inanimate object, ‘strawman’ is an acceptable term. I once had a women’s studies professor who actually found the use of the term ‘strawperson’ quite amusing when I quoted someone using it in a paper.
Asti
Attack, attack, attack? Where? Please cite.
I’ve seen a lot of attack from Hillary supporters AND Hillary herself. Ummm, Soj, have you forgotten this is an ELECTION?
myiq2xu
Once you start supporting them, how long does it take you to become “aware?”
I was aware that George W. Bush was a piece of shit in 1999.
The Other Steve
I’ve come to realize why NAFTA was bad.
Here’s the deal. Historically trade deals between nations have been done by way of a treaty. We negotiate a treaty with Mexico, and both sign and approve and have a nice ceremony and a party afterwards, etc.
NAFTA isn’t a treaty. Instead it’s just a whole shitload of little rule changes.
See the people behind NAFTA realized that it was so controversial that they couldn’t get it passed as a treaty. Treaties have to be approved by a 2/3rd vote in the Senate. It says that in the Constitution. But a bunch of rules changes, that you can pass on a simple majority.
So NAFTA was rammed through Congress.
It seems to me that every bill that has ever been rammed through has created a great deal of bitterness. Now sometimes, maybe that’s worth it. Civil Rights Act of 1964, for example. But for things which effect just about everybody, and we’re not talking about issues of fairness, it seems to me that it’d probably be best if we had the agreement of the majority of the people.
The founding fathers obviously felt that accepting a Treaty was a signifigant event, because they put in that stipulation that it had to be approved by 2/3rds of the Senate. I’m sure they had good reason to be concerned about this.
So maybe trying to weasel around that limitation was a really bad idea?
I generally support NAFTA, but I have some questions about it and I’m to point now where I think it should be repealed and renegotiated.
dslak
It’s only an election because Obama made it one. It was supposed to be a coronation!
Asti
Soj, read this again, it seems taht this applies to you:
Sojourner
Okay, I’m done.
You guys are the ones making up the strawman, not me. This thread started off with an example of exactly what I’m talking about, from Frank Rich.
But rather than have a reasonable discussion about what the impact of the column might be, it’s much easier to call me stupid and accuse me of being a Hillary supporter.
Apparently, Balloon Juice only welcomes true blue Obamiacs. Perhaps it’s better if I stop reading Balloon Juice until after the election. As I said, I’m not interested in reading a blog that has only one point of view and mocks those who have the nerve to disagree.
FYI: It’s “who’s boss,” not “whose.”
4tehlulz
lol sojournor. The only campaign talking about states not counting is Hillary’s. Trying to use that line against Obama supporters is the height of teh stupid.
Jon H
Has anyone set up “HillaryIs60.com”?
myiq2xu
That’s rule #3 in the Obamaniac Handbook.
“Everyone who does not support Him uncritically is a stupid Hillbot.”
Asti
Not true at all. I spent all night last night watching and sometimes inserting myself in a fight with Hillary supporters. Cite the nastiness from Obama’s supporters, please, because I’m just not seeing it.
I don’t care if you’re a Naderite, you belong here and always will.
mrmobi
Rich is spot-on. Especially about this:
This is the strongest point in the piece, in my view. His comparison to the way Bush has run things, and to Penn being her Rumsfeld rings true also. Her campaign is demonstrating substantial incompetence for someone who claims to be ready to lead “on day one.”
It’s starting to look like Obama has too much momentum and Clinton is too badly organized to turn this around. Incompetence isn’t selling too well these days with the voters.
ACK
That’s rule #3 in the Obamaniac Handbook.
“Everyone who does not support Him uncritically is a stupid Hillbot.”
Ah ha. That is similar to rule #3 in the Clinton Handbook.
“Everyone who does not support Her uncritically is a member of the Obama Cult.”
dslak
That’s too bad, because I’ll miss your unintentional humor.
You do realize what a strawman is, right? You’ve also been guilty of moving the goalposts and using proof surrogates today, but listing the informal fallacies used by one’s opponent doesn’t make for interesting discussions.
If you consider “Obama is so mean! My friends and I won’t vote for him!” to be a reasonable discussion, perhaps. Others may be inclined to disagree.
I realized this after I posted, but be careful you don’t make any grammatical errors yourself. You seem pretty sensitive, so it would be best to avoid situations where other people might be inclined to correct you.
Asti
This is exactly what TZ has been harping on about for the past several days and nobody seemed to really want to pick up on. I’m glad you see it mrmobi
myiq2xu
Yeah, sure. How many millions were spent to defeat her plan? That was the GOP’s first victory on their “Obstruction of Progress” campaign that is still continuing to this day.
They dug in their heels to ensure that nothing would pass in regards to health care reform. NOTHING
And which candidate is copying their anti-reform ad campaign?
myiq2xu
Ah, the stench of right-wing meme!
What is the wingers standard response when one of theirs is busted?
“Clinton did it too!
Asti
McCain?
You had better NOT be insinuating that Obama is against reform, because he is all about change.
ThymeZone
I think I figured out why Clinton staged that healthcare rant yesterday and did her “Shame on you Barack” scene:
Obama us absolutely fucking killing her on NAFTA. He is packaging up NAFTA and hanging it around her neck like an albatross on steroids and AGH (albatross growth hormone).
In case you didn’t know, NAFTA and SATAN enjoy about the same popularity in Ohio.
Her healthcare thing was just a distraction to take attention away from his piercing and devastating NAFTA attack. I hope you get a chance to see his speech on that subject, you will know what I mean. He flays her on NAFTA.
ACK
Ah, the stench of right-wing meme!
I thought it was an attempt at humor. Lame, perhaps, but humor nonetheless.
myiq2xu
The Rich piece is crap. Comparing this political campaign to Iraq is typical of his overreaching hackery.
It didn’t take an expert to see that Iraq was going to be a clusterfuck, and not because of tactics or strategy. There never was a “winning” strategy for Iraq.
Yes, Hillary has run a campaign filled with miscues and poor strategies, but that has been magnified by the media. And she never was the “inevitible” candidate, she was just the one with the most name recognition.
Obama has been well-funded and has had substantial “establishment” support from the beginning. Not to mention the fawning media attention that is just beginning to come to an end.
dslak
The only people who think that Hillary has done wrong in any way are GOP hacks and Obamabots. Coincidence?
myiq2xu
Sorry, it’s hard to tell, so many around here are serious when they say stuff like that.
ThymeZone
From HuffPo. Please try to hear the Obama speech segments on NAFTA. He takes her apart.
dslak
I would say that I found the Rich piece to be rather lame, but since I’m an Obama supporter and thus have no mind of my own, I must say that it’s probably the most insightful thing I’ve ever read.
ThymeZone
True, I said as much in 2002.
What’s Cinton’s excuse?
Asti
No, it’s an election, of course this was going to happen.
4tehlulz
>>it’s probably the most insightful thing I’ve ever read.
You fail at Obama worship; reread all of Obama’s speeches for the most insightful thing you’ve ever read.
ThymeZone
Soj, please, I did neither here.
Jesus was a Socialist
Long time lurker, rare poster.
I agree with Sojourner. I’ve faithfully read this blog daily since 2004 but recently find it hard as the posts and comments are similar to Dkos and the like. Like Sojourner, I lukewarmly support Obama because I want a Dem to win, but I know there is no progressive candidate and regardless of who wins we end up with a center-right President.
Asti
Thank God we have unions. They will remember, you can be sure of that.
over_educated
Uhhh… OK… yeah….
Spoof more please.
1. When you start using the word “cult” in reference to Obama supporters you pretty much are automatically labeling yourself a looney. It’s a right wing (and now hillary) talking point that is ridiculous on its face. Heaven forfend that we be excited and enthusiastic about our candidate. Do you even know what a cult is?
With that kind of rhetoric, you get the responses you deserve.
2. John certainly hasn’t grabbed the MUP and rode it off into the sunset. There has been a lot of debate on this board about Obama’s strengths and weaknesses, what has remained consistent is that no matter who wins the Democratic primary, most of the people on this board are voting for them.
3. Welcome to the interwebz. If a few negative comments make you pick up your ball and go home, perhaps you should spend more time at the “Hello-Kitty Island Adventure” forums. This one is for grown-ups that can handle debate. Plenty of people on this board have taken unpopular positions and gotten attacked. Man (or woman) up and make a reasonable defense. (hint: Calling us cultists, sexists and Obamabots does not a reasonable defense make).
4. We may disagree with P. Luk and myiq, but unlike redstate John does not censor his commetariat. So you actually do get all sides. We like to disagree round here, it’s fun!
In short, if you like Hillary and Hillary has many fine qualities), explain to us why you think her attacks have merit, or why she will be a better candidate. Respond to Jen’s points about the CAMPAIGN. if you want a blg where everyone parrots the same opinions Redstate and Hillaryis44 is thataway ——->>>
dslak
You’re the failure. A true Obamabot knows that the most insightful thing they’ve ever read is the last thing they read which trashed Hillary or praised Obama (or, Barack be praised, both!).
ThymeZone
Oh my fucking god, see CNN’s live Clinton speech right now.
She is trying to make fun of the Obama campaign. “Magic wand.” “Light will magically come down.”
This is pretty sad, she looks ridiculous.
ThymeZone
Word.
dslak
Jesus was a Socialist, what exactly is wrong with some of the posts being like DKos here? Some of the people at DKos do pretty good work.
Also, if you’re upset that Obama isn’t liberal enough, how can you possibly use DKos as a negative example?
tBone
You forgot Nazis, commies and domestic terrorists. I’m beginning to think you might be an Obama sleeper agent.
myiq2xu
From eriposte at Left Caster:
Lieberman must be a happy camper these days, his BFE is a lock for the GOP nomination, and his prize pupil is leading for the Donkey team.
tBone
Congrats on the new speechwriting gig, myiq2xu!
dslak
I thought that the wand talked about here was pretty powerful, and more than just a stick.
ThymeZone
To cheer you up, McCain is on CNN now.
Pumping up the image of George Bush.
Can we wait until the real campaign starts? We are going to destroy this sorry butthead.
John Cole
That is Obama’s fault. He made her go negative against her will, what with his string of victories. just like a greedy Republican, he couldn’t share any of those states. Can you imagine being married to that selfish jerk?
/taylormarsh
Asti
Yeah, I read that and shook my head too, then realized it must be spoof and wasn’t worth commenting on.
Asti
LMAO, that was great John! ;)
myiq2xu
Hillary calls me her “cunning linguist”
ThymeZone
McCain: Aren’t we glad that we had a president like George Bush who has kept us safe since September 11?
Amazing, simply amazing. He is touting a president with a 30 percent approval rating.
ThymeZone
You will eat those words, amigo.
Asti
Even better, he’s #1 son right now. I couldn’t ask for a better campaign dream. ;)
myiq2xu
I wish that was the only thing I had to eat.
ThymeZone
When do we do our Ohio-Texas predictions? I’m ready to call this race.
Mary
Wait, I thought Bush had slipped to 19% approval.
mourns John Rogers’ Crazification Factor
TenguPhule
No. SATSQ Mark II.
My fondest dream is to see McCoward collapse from a stroke at the Republican Convention right before the nomination.
Let Sweet Chaos Rule.
So let’s pour on the stress factors against him to make it happen!
chopper
isn’t that sexist?
ThymeZone
Only if the wand is battery operated.
myiq2xu
YouTube seems to have crashed.
Could it be the “Bitch is the new black!” video is too popular?
Naw
chopper
yeah, that must be it.
The Other Steve
Huckabee on SNL was pretty funny.
Loved the debate
myiq2xu
Here’s a link to that video and the mock debate that opened SNL
The Other Steve
That’s so sad.
myiq2xu
Most of the show last night was hilarious. The “Annuale” skit was priceless.
myiq2xu
Yes, because she’s a far better candidate than what’s-his-name.
You know, the cult leader dude.
The Other Steve
Guys! Hillaryis44 has been particularly precious this weekend.
They’re now calling Obama a flim-flam artist, comparing him to pet rocks, and they’ve even thrown in the Heaven’s Gate Cult video for good measure!
The Other Steve
Doesn’t the better candidate usually uhh, you know… win elections?
myiq2xu
They had an expert on plagiarism defending Obama on MTP today:
myiq2xu
Ask Al Gore or John Kerry.
myiq2xu
Two out of three ain’t bad.
tBone
Finally, something we agree on. That was the best text crawl since Happy Fun Ball.
“In the days around your period, you may develop a leathery tail. Annuale may cause you to develop a second vagina. Notify authorities in your town when your period is immiment as they may want to incarcerate you preemptively like a wolfman.”
The Other Steve
How can you be a good candidate, if you can’t run a good campaign?
myiq2xu
Someone can be good at running for office but lousy in office. G-Dub is the perfect example.
I was referring to the opposite; someone who isn’t good at campaigning but performs well in office.
mrmobi
Don’t misunderstand me. My problem with what happened with National Health Insurance was not so much that she failed, but the way she did it. Remember, it was all done behind closed doors, a la Dick Cheney.
I’ll gladly vote for Hillary if she is the candidate, but the parallels to the kind of arrogance we’ve grown accustomed to from the Bush administration, and her behavior of late lead me to think that, between her and her husband, she is the bigger demagogue.
Brachiator
Apparently, Obama voters are also GOP hacks and Obamabots.
Fun stuff, although one off note for me in the skit was the Tina Fey commentator’s joy over the idea of the return of a co-presidency (“who wouldn’t want two intelligent people in the White House?”)
But the Obama debate skit, complete with fawning media and Obama Girl, was spot on.
Someone who is bad at campaigning rarely wins the office, and so never gets a chance to perform.
Perhaps Senator Clinton might have a better chance if we changed the presidency to an appointive office.
Cain
I was never an Edward’s supporter probably because of my own conservative tendencies (nobody would ever call me a conservative since I tend to apply stuff like family values across all demographics regardless of relationships gay or otherwise).
There are plenty here that wouldn’t mind Hillary winning, certainly I wouldn’t although I would be disapointed. My first choice was actually Kucinich, Dodd and then Obama. But I’ve been swept up by the MUP as well. Also we make fun of ourselves when it comes to Obama. After all, why we use the term “Magical Unity Pony” to describe him. Obviously, we aren’t overly serious.
Who knows, maybe MUP will surprise you. But if you’re looking for payback it’s not going to happen. An eye for an eye is a ridiculous policy with no good outcome other than to corrupt both sides. Look at TalkLeft and Taylor Marsh. They are so partisan, so inflexible that they look like the left’s version of the right wing blog sites. Pathetic.
I’ll stick to this blog any day.
cain
ThymeZone
Pliagiarism is unacknowledged use, and use without permission. Neither condition exists here.
myiq2xu
Oh please, there is no comparison.
myiq2xu
I was pointing out the “expert,” not addressing the underlying controversy.
ThymeZone
Why? There’s no “controversy” here. Who thinks that there is actual plagiarism in the campaign? Why are we even talking about it, then?
Because your fuckheadette candidate saw to it that the jackalope was unleashed on the eve of a vote, right?
demimondian
Re: YouTube(r) — the anti-potato folks in Pakistan decided to sabotage the routing tables that run the internet in order to shut down “blasphemous content” on YouTube.
Sing it with me! “What a friend we have in Islamabad…”
myiq2xu
I thought only tech support was in India. Did they outsource the whole enchilada?
demimondian
No — in fact, tech support (AFAIK) is still in San Bernardino for the US.
Any entity on the Internet can advertise a route for any other entity, and the router daemons will believe it. Pakistan Telecom told all Pakistani ISPs to block YouTube, and one of them, at least, did it by building a “black hole” route. That route leaked out into the rest of the world, and suddenly, YouTube was black-holed world-wide.
The Other Andrew
Point #1: Hillary really shouldn’t be mocking Obama’s ability to get results. Getting results means creating a consensus, and Hillary is obviously divisive. When it comes to politics, Hillary is definitely a fighter, but when it comes to actual issues (the war), she isn’t a fighter at all, she just gives in to the GOP, as she tends to agree with them on some level.
Point #2: There’s a difference between Lieberman Unity (where a Democrat is basically a Republican on big issues) and Magical Unity Pony Unity (where common interests are stressed).
The Other Andrew
I meant to add–Hillary is about looking tough, Obama is about being sane and competent. We’re just finishing up with a President who had a chip on his shoulder about making sure everyone thought he was “tough”…
The Other Steve
Perhaps that is the similarity. Both George and Hillary feel they have something to prove.
Lavocat
His bumbling paper gives the nod to her and then Rich engages in some serious sphincter ripping.
Talk about having your bitch and slapping her, too!
Conservatively Liberal
BJ is an equal opportunity mocking blog. Everyone is subject to ridicule and scorn here. Tea sipping pantywaists need not apply. ;)
ThymeZone Says:
I said the same thing after $onny Bu$h was selected in 2000. I told my wife that he would use any excuse to get in to Iraq because neo-nutjobs were pissed that Daddy Bu$h did not finish the ‘job’ (read: gain control of Iraq’s oil). I also knew that the social composition of Iraq would mean that we would be caught in the middle of a sectarian war. Turns out that it is worse than I even thought it would be. I had no idea that Chimpy would fuck things up so badly.
When 9-11 happened, I told her that was it. The march to invade Iraq was on, and when Bush and the right pulled the AUMF out of their asses right before the 2002 elections I knew the cat was in the bag.
If I could see all of this, why did Hillary miss it? Sure, at the time my opinion was derided but I have since been vindicated.
IMO, Hillary had to know what was going to happen with the AUMF given to Bu$h.
Conservatively Liberal
They have a show called Meet The Pony that they defend Obama on? Kewl! What station is carrying it?
myiq2xu
So did one of our televangelists invoke the name of Sonny Jeebus to cast out the Islamic router demons?
Asti
Conservatively Liberal, I said the same thing too. Only difference is, I felt we would do it more because Saddam tried to kill his daddy, and I still believe that was one of the factors.
Zuzu
I have to admit I found the video Rich linked to pretty funny. Speaking as a bit of a Flick-type myself.
Hillary’s Inner Tracy Flick
Zuzu
Wow, that was dishonest.
And I hope your snarly, self-centered little friends are voting in an overwhelmingly red or blue state where their little tantrums can’t sabotage the election. If not, on behalf of my active-duty loved one: f**k them.
Zuzu
That’s just silly.
I worry more about it being a Jimmy Carter-type cult of personality….lots of hope, bit lacking in substance.
Zuzu
I’d suspect it may have been part of it once he leaned in that direction. But he’s so publicly dismissive of his daddy in every other way, it’s hard to see it being the driving force.