Jonah Goldberg compares Obama’s volunteer national service program to slavery.
I give up. I can’t keep up with them.
*** Update ***
Does this mean the Solomon amendment to deny federal funding to universities that do not allow ROTC programs is JUST LIKE PRESS GANGS!
*** Update #2 ***
Comment of the day:
I have never told this story before now, but Jonah has empowered me to step forward.
From the age of five until the age of sixteen, I was forced by an “institution of learning” to learn to read and write. I was also compelled—against my will—to learn mathematics as well., I had no choice. I was a slave.
But that is not the worst part. The worst is that I had become so indoctrinated that, like a kidnap victim who comes to identify with their kidnappers, I continued my slavery for an additional seven years of “my own free will.” I eventually earned a degree, but I now realize that it was A DEGREE IN SLAVERY.
My God, I weep when I think of the poor innocents who will be enslaved by Obama into volunteer service and will be “paid” with college tuition.
Natascha
Oh please, Jonah. Just because your fat ass can’t do anything productive, doesn’t mean the rest of can’t either.
El Cid
Goldberg’s got his schtick and it works for him, profitably. ‘Liberalish thing X is really in its basic essence just like universally loathed evil Z.’ Rinse. Repeat.
Any belief or institution which even sounds like it holds that poor Jonah Goldberg should be doing something other than exactly what he likes doing and what he has always liked doing is just like the Nazis. Etc.
I’m sure he did the same if his mother Lucianne ever actually told him to clean up his room, which in essence is exactly like Soviet authorities sending someone to the Gulag work camps.
Grand Moff Texan
So, according to Jonah, white men are all Jews and volunteers are slaves and leftists are Nazis.
Asshole needs to stop dumping his trash in my yard.
.
SpotWeld
Well, um.. at least he’s serving as a good cautionary example. Let’s say you get a preview of someone’s post and they’re skirting the edge of sounding rather unhinged. “Hey, carful there. It looks like you’re about to pull a Goldberg”
Crusty Dem
Somebody needs to slap the stupid out of that boy. Preferably with an English book which contains a clear explanation that mixing hyperbole with metaphor is dumbfuckery.
The Moar You Know
I tried this line of argument sometimes around age 10 (I think it was Nazis). It got me slapped.
Shame Ma Goldberg didn’t have the fortitude my mother did. Jonah would have ended up contributing something worthwhile to society, instead of being the worthless human tick that he is.
sparky
what El Cid said.
it’s like talk radio for people who can’t do talk radio. only problem is that since they must actually type the words, anyone outside the echo chamber reads the words and says some variant of WTF. presumably it’s possible to make a pretty good living off the 28%ers, since the quality of the product isn’t relevant. who’da thunk you could get paid for bad marketing of a bogus political brand that’s about as useful as running a Hummer on blocks in your yard?
SpotWeld
Waterboard him in the presence of a copy of Strunk & White?
Zifnab
Teh Stoopid! It burns!
slag
Actually, he–like most conservatives–needs to understand the meaning of the word “paradox”. Paradox. As in, “volunteer slave” or “liberal fascist”. Paradox. I’m thinking Jonah didn’t watch enough Sesame Street as a youngster.
Paul L.
So I take you support this.
Bubblegum Tate
Precisely.
“Health care? Why, that’s just genocide with better PR!”
Faux News
Did Jonah helpfully point this out to Bush I and his “thousand points of light” program?
Jonah really is nothing more than an intestinal parasite
Z
You’d be exhausting before you had finished slapping out a quarter of the stupid.
Brachiator
Nor, apparently, did he listen to enough Rahsaan Roland Kirk, or learn any irony.
Clip of Kirk performing “Volunteer Slavery” here
.
Z
Ack. Sorry about the double post complete with poor grammar.
kindness
You can flame Jonah by maybe say equating Liberalism to Fascism….but really now, is anybody dumb enough to let THAT ONE slide by?
linda
i caught a few minutes of a taped event when he was pimping his book and the comment that got my attention was: ‘today’s fascists aren’t direct descendants of hitler and mussolini; they’re more like the nieces and nephews…’
and the latimes gives him prime real estate.
Ben
So Kit Bond says that we need to do whatever the government tells us in order to be safe from scary terrorists. But Jonah would add a proviso that the government asking us to consider volunteering a bit is slavery.
They need a little message discipline.
Bubblegum Tate
If they don’t, then they’re a prime example of librul media bias.
Dave L
This parallels the right’s blank indifference to the plight of National Guardsmen being shipped back to Iraq for third and fourth deployments: “They volunteered.”
So in their own minds, once you’re stupid enough to step forward, you’re property.
Dave_Violence
Any time you’re forced to be a volunteer it’s slavery. It matters not if it’s a military draft or if it’s being pressed into planting flower. You’re no better off than being in prison. A mandatory “National Service” is unnecessary.
Crusty Dem
as slag said, Jonah has a real thing for teh paradox (I blame Friedman and his “world is flat” BS). I believe we can now accurately describe Goldberg as an oxymoron.
nightjar
It’s certainly a target rich environment these days if your looking for wingnut wankery. It’s kind of like watching a snake swallow it’s own tail.
adolphus
“setting a goal” is not requiring and is certainly not slavery. When NPR states that they are setting a goal of $10,000 for a pledge drive they are not requiring anyone give anything and it is not a tax. It is what they are shooting for, a target, a projection etc.
I do support incentives for service (loan deferral, financial aid, etc), just like Obama has proposed, but not requiring and you’ll have to find a stronger and more robust passage or clip than that to convince me Obama is proposing requiring this of students.
Davis X. Machina
…once you’re stupid enough to step forward, you’re property.
In George Bush’s America, we’re all The Help.
An old Mainer told me once, “The country is run by Summer People. And we’re just all The Help.”
kwAwk
I was intrigued by his comparison of volunteer rates and charitable giving rates in Western Europe and the US. I wonder if it ever crossed his mind that if you have a system where you have less poor people, then there is less need for charitable giving and volunteer work?
People who have decent health care coverage and a decent income don’t need charity.
Big E
yeah, sure ……. the Americans who still believe Obama is Muslim, or a secret Manchurian Candidate waiting to destroy America…
John, there was a latino Republican shill on CNN yesterday with Paul Begala, she said, since the Dems took over the Congress in 2006 the economy has tanked, the Dems are responsible !!!!!!!!! Begala didn’t get a word in about that…..
It’s too bad the Dems and progressives don’t have the guts to go on TV and rip the weasels 12 new assholes, and call them for what they are.
re: Rahsaan Roland Kirk
I’m a saxophonist too….. Love him and saw him perform that….
Zifnab
Yes?
Kirk
Paul L.,
As it happens, I disagree with the requirement, but I still ridicule calling it “slavery”.
I’ve been in a couple of communities where service has been a requirement for graduation. (School district 2, Colorado Springs, in the 1990s for example.) It wasn’t slavery then. It was, however, a wrong approach.
The flaw is apparent when you read Obama’s entire speech. He notes that “study after study” shows that students who serve their communities tend to do better academically. The flaw is deciding that the service causes the improvement, as opposed to the likelihood that good students also happen to be more likely to perform service for their communities.
Josh
I believe some states and school districts have for years required volunteering/community service as a precondition to graduate high school. Is that slavery? What’s the difference between this and what Obama wishes?
4tehlulz
>>Did Jonah helpfully point this out to Bush I and his “thousand points of light” program?
You mean “a thousand points of slavery” amirite?
rollSound
It’s amazing how the offspring of influential people so rarely come close to being functional or even useful members of society.
It’s enough to argue that the inheritance tax should be hiked to 100%, not eliminated.
ThymeZone
I don’t care how well you package it, you can’t get me to read Jonah Goldberg.
Next topic please.
kwAwk
Kirk – But couldn’t it also be said that it is a good thing to attempt to get the bad students to emulate the habits of good students?
Zifnab
My High School had the “YES” program. You committed to 100 hours of community service before the middle of your Senior Year and you got a little certificate and some fluff to put on your college resume and your scholarship applications.
During graduation, you got little yellow “YES” button for your robe, and you got to receive your diplomas before non-“YES” people, but after the cum laud and magna cum laud students.
And I think there was a club you could join.
Looking back, I suddenly realize the persecution I suffered under. The horror. The horror.
Martin
Absolutely. Take it from someone of some authority, 50 hours per year of service during high school is expected for anyone applying to even a mid-rank public school. Not having that drops your prospects quite a bit. And a large number of universities are trying to institute service learning as a core requirement, so the 100 hours fits quite nicely as well.
My son is 10 and pulls almost 50 hours per year now. It’s called ‘offsetting the need to tax the public’ and Republicans have been forever harping on how charities should simply do everything that we pay taxes to do. Does nobody realize where the charities get their labor from? The GOP should love this plan, but they’re too dishonest to admit that it fits in with their other meme.
4tehlulz
>>little yellow “YES”
OH MY GOD YOU ARE LIKE A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR /Jonah
Cassidy
That’s okay. We found out a few threads down that being a Soldier is the same as a being a war criminal. I think someone pulled a Goldberg.
Kirk
kwAwk – That would be the theory. In practice, however, it hasn’t changed the academic performance in areas where it’s been required. And again, there are already places where service – either during the senior year or throughout the entire time – is a requirement.
The other difficulty I had with it was local enforcement. “What is service” to begin, followed by accountability. I knew a young man who picked up the trash every morning on the trail on which he ran. But with no documentation, it did not count. You can see, I think, the various weaknesses that demonstrates.
The Moar You Know
“Set a goal” = “Clapped into chains and flogged until compliance is forthcoming”
Liberal work camps are coming! They’re building them out in the desert right now – right next to the landing strips for the gay Martians! They’re gonna make you sit in the blazing hot sun, plant tulips in the Mojave, flog you when they die, and listen to Joan Baez until you die of heatstroke – swear to God it’s all true.
clone12
Kirk,
You objection about the link between volunteerism and academic performance being that of self-selection rather than correlation is addressed by your previous paragraph.
Self-selection is not measurement problem when certain schools make it a graduation requirement for everyone.
And as someone who did graduate from a high school that required community service to graduate, I happen to think that it was a good requirement, as was the PE requirement that forced me into doing cross country against my will but in the process, made me a life-long devotee of distance running.
Don
I have never told this story before now, but Jonah has empowered me to step forward.
From the age of five until the age of sixteen, I was forced by an “institution of learning” to learn to read and write. I was also compelled–against my will–to learn mathematics as well., I had no choice. I was a slave.
But that is not the worst part. The worst is that I had become so indoctrinated that, like a kidnap victim who comes to identify with their kidnappers, I continued my slavery for an additional seven years of “my own free will.” I eventually earned a degree, but I now realize that it was A DEGREE IN SLAVERY.
My God, I weep when I think of the poor innocents who will be enslaved by Obama into volunteer service and will be “paid” with college tuition.
jake
I would like to take this opportunity to condemn my mom and the state for forcing me to go to school.
adolphus
Some states, local districts, and especially private schools have had such programs for years most are art of a Service Learning Curriculum which embeds volunteer work in a larger lesson or lessons on civic participation, community, etc etc. The number of hours volunteered aside from class room prep are actually quite low. In that sense the volunteer work is as much slavery as math drills and vocabulary since it is all done under the guidance of a teacher or advisor. The clearest way I have heard it described was as a lesson in the responsibilities of citizens in a democracy. Every student learns their rights in Government class and from TV cop shows, but this teaches them their responsibilities.
I’m still not convinced Obama is proposing “required” service of students. If he did I would not support that particular plank. I don’t think it works pedagogically and would likely teach many students to hate volunteering and 50-100 hours from every student is more than can be efficiently administered. Besides, our nations charities just aren’t prepared for that many adolescent helpers.
Zifnab
Win.
John Cole
Whether I support it or not is irrelevant to the main point today, WHICH IS THAT THIS IS NOTHING LIKE FUCKING SLAVERY.
Zifnab
Shorter Cassidy: DEMOCRATS ARE WORSER!
Lols. Seriously, you could at least dive into the archives and link it back up. Even then, we’d be keenly interested in your take on the Obama resurrection of the slave trade. Are you pro-slavery or will you be a staunch supporter of McFreedom in the fall? Inquiring minds want to know.
/:-p
ThymeZone
Hey, as long as there are forced abortions, of course I am for it.
Kirk
Clone12, no, you missed, or perhaps I wasn’t clear.
Obama specifically noted that one reason for the requirement was to improve academic performance. (Yes, he also stated it was to get people involved in service at an earlier age – your experience being an example of why.) If service produced better academic performance, then those schools mandating service should see an overall improvement in academic performance. The reality is, however, that these “mandatory service requirement” schools do not see such an improvement.
There may be reasons to mandate the service. I’m of mixed opinions in that regard. But mandating it because it improves academic performance is a false reason, and I’m tired of the habit of doing things under false cover. On that ground, then, I object.
The Moar You Know
Paul L: Love your site. I think you favicon and user avatar really say everything we need to know about you.
mrmobi
First, Paul L., a hale and hearty “YES” to your question. If my daughter, who graduated (with honors) from college last year, had done such service (100 hours per year), she would now be $16,000 less in debt, and the community (and she) would be richer for her service. In fact, she would have been almost debt-free if such a program was in place. This is a terrific use of government funds which delivers dividends to the recipient and the community. It’s what business people like to call “win-win.”
I don’t think all Republicans are too dense to see this as a great program, either. Jonah Goldberg should not be allowed to write for anyone, and this kind of program is exactly what will attract principled conservatives to Obama, IMHO.
The Moar You Know
Excellent suggestion, TZ – I’ll forward that to the
Central Control ForcePlanning Committee and we’ll havethe GestapoBarney the Dinosaur implement it in thedeath campsresort retreats.Good job,
soldiercitizen!J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Can I please get an example of “forced volunteerism” occurring in the U.S.?
Ryan S.
Isn’t the logic simple:
1. Doing community service supports ours communities.
2. Supporting our communities supports our country.
3. You support something you love.
therefore this begs the question.
Why does Jonah / Paul hate the U.S.A.?
nightjar
I support a full on draft for military/national service. It wouldn’t matter if you went to college, nor if you were some Senators son. Next war — it’s everybody all in, or everybody all out — and Goldberg would be the first one sent to the front, followed by the rest of Keyboard Commando Corp.
Slave That Jonah!
RSA
When my wife and I were living in Germany (me with a work permit, her without), she went to a local retirement home to offer to be a volunteer. They just didn’t know what to do with such a request–why would anyone set up a social service to depend on unpaid volunteers to function well? But that seems to be the American way.
Huh, I guess grade school history books need to be revised to reflect the notion that the U.S. won WWII based on slave labor. That’s a bit of an uncomfortable view. At least we call them the Greatest Generation, as consolation.
Paul L.
D.P Gumby is a gay icon?
Dennis - SGMM
And if McCain had proposed the same program the Right would be praising it to the heavens. The press would need more buckets to catch the slobber raining down from McCain’s balls.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Barack Obama’s Service Proposal
Require 100 Hours of Service in College: Obama will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.
Does anyone know how much money the “volunteer” slaves made for college by “volunteering” to work on a plantation?
Btw, 100 hours equals 2.5 work weeks a year – just like the slaves had to work.
The Other Steve
I’m surprised. I thought the talking point was that Obama wants a police state, and will form a group of jack booted thugs to take away our freedoms, all in the name of national service.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
clone12
Kirk,
In the post I responded to, you argued that “The flaw is deciding that the service causes the improvement, as opposed to the likelihood that good students also happen to be more likely to perform service for their communities”
Since some schools mandate community service and some school don’t, you can measure the effect of community services by looking at the academic performance of the students between these two types of schools. Your objection above does not apply.
It is of course entirely possible that the studies Obama cited are flawed in some other aspects, or that schools who do have this requirement don’t actually do better academically, as you claim. However, I simply don’t see how self-selection would have undermined these studies, as you have implicitly argued.
Zifnab
It would never happy. You’re implying that McCain can come up with good ideas.
Martin
He’s not mandating it. He’s encouraging it with an overall goal. You are objecting to something that doesn’t exist here. He’s putting incentives behind the service. The students that are most likely to benefit from the service are also most likely to take advantage of the incentives.
People wouldn’t expect it, but kids doing the most service in H.S. are also the kids coming from the lowest income households. Since higher income students volunteer less (and work and do extracurriculars more), I don’t see that this plan is really designed to get everyone to do service, since the financial incentive isn’t there. Instead, this should help lower-income students get into college and to help most students (if service learning is promoted) to seek out a broader range of career options. That’s a big problem now – students look at a narrow set of high-profile employers and overlook a ton of opportunities out of inexperience and lack of familiarity. This will help overcome that somewhat.
And there are studies that show that students that volunteer are more likely to show academic improvement following the service. I don’t think that was mandatory service, but there is some correlation there. I don’t think it’s a false reason.
Kirk
clone12 – either I’ve confused you, or… Let me try, again, to restate and clarify.
Obama argues that service causes improved academic peformance. I argue that these are coincidental effects, both an outgrowth of a certain type of individual.
ok, I also see a part of your issue. And if you can’t see how self-selection undermines…
The studies consider all students in a district in both cases. In districts where service is voluntary, there is a high correlation between high academic performance and voluntary service. There is also a mean and median performance of all the students. It is this latter which is relevant. That’s because the mean/median performance in districts where service is mandated is not significantly different from the mean/median of the non-mandated schools.
In other words, service does not cause academic improvement.
Dennis - SGMM
Once a month our local nature conservancy gets together to work on the local hiking trails. It’s mostly shovels and hoes and picks, along with hauling out any trash we find. We’re all volunteers.
My question is; if we’re all slaves, how come we can’t sing like birds?
/Obligatory “Blazing Saddles” reference.
jibeaux
I think it’s kind of sad that Paul L.’s site has no comments on it. My blog has comments on it, and it only gets about six visitors, only two of whom aren’t grandparents of people frequently featured on the blog. I might just go over there sometime and discuss lacrosse.
Huh, yet every court that has ever considered high school service requirements and the draft has not come to this conclusion. Have you emailed them all with this blinding logic yet?
D. Mason
While I wholeheartedly agree that it is not slavery, it damn sure isn’t volunteer work either.
Mike P
I think this bit from the NRO’s Campaign Spot that Hilzoy caught was even better than Jonah’s nonsense.
jibeaux
I think you’re allowed to sing Camptown Ladies, if you like.
Zifnab
Lots almost like the proverbial “paid work”. And the idea that the government should pay people to do stuff just burns me when I pee. I don’t want my tax dollars going to local youths engaged in community service activities in exchange for college tuition. That sounds suspiciously like what we used to call a “Summer Job” and it both disgusts and frightens me.
Ted
How did we go this entire thread so far and no one has yet to call Dr. Loadpants by either of his pet names?
jibeaux
D. Mason, are we looking at the same thing here?
CJ
To be more correct, wouldn’t you want to state that in some instances self selection of volunteer activities by good students makes it difficult to correlate subsequent grade performance with volunteerism, and that in other situations, good students get some bad grades, bad students get some good grades, or that bad students get some bad grades?
We should be focusing on the fact that volunteering improves citizenship through actual achievements by volunteers and by making the volunteers understand that they need to take care of business to avoid situations in which they would require volunteers to get by.
CJ
D. Mason
Apparently not. I’m looking at the definition of the word volunteer. I have no idea what you’re looking at.
shera
Roots II: American Opportunity Tax Credit has a nice ring to it.
jake
Don’t you know? Can’t you see it? Obama is African-American. When an African-American talks about requiring anything that remotely resembles labor it is a clear signal that he plans to get revenge for 300 years of slavery! [Wets pants]
John S.
He will take that as a compliment.
The Grand Panjandrum
It should be obvious by now that when a thought crosses Jonah’s mind its taking the shortest trip in town.
Bubblegum Tate
Hey, the Muslims have their Sharia, the Mexicans have their Reconquista, and the Blacks have their…um…volunteering. Call it what you want, it’s all the same thing: Scary, dark-skinded people taking over ‘Murrica!
Zifnab
And that appears to be Mason’s problem. Asking people to do good deeds by speaking very nicely is one thing. Mandating that they do what you want is another. Giving them monetary incentives is the dark middle road that we dare not treed, for then we are no longer “volunteering” but “working for pay” and that is a bad thing(tm).
w vincentz
@ Cassidy,
Just wonderin’, what would YOU call someone who volunteers to commit genocide and create refugees as part of an occupying military force that is commanded by an unelected commander-in-chief?
Redleg
It’s odd that Goldberg and many other conservatives don’t have a problem with workers working for slave wages or being required to work overtime without compensation.
CFisher
Unless he’s willing to call the draft slavery, which I doubt he would do, his position is inconsistent.
Mind you, I would consider a military draft to be slavery, but I realize the chances of winning that argument in court are slim to none.
jibeaux
Huh, I guess I’m looking at that pay-for-work thing. Doesn’t it say “to receive this credit”, not “in order to not be thrown in jail”? Do you really see some sort of forced service in that? Certainly does seem to me that if you don’t do the public service, you don’t get the tax credit.
Waitaminute here, is D. Mason the alter ego of D-Chance, lamest troll evah?
Joshua Norton
Jonah reminds me of an annoying nephew of mine. All the kid wants to do is sit on the couch, eat candy and watch TV and whine non-stop if he’s asked to do something around the house. I see a potential republican pundit in the making.
D. Mason
Point to where I said it was bad or even said anything even slightly negative about the program. I pointed out the reality that it’s not volunteering. I think offering kids work in the community that pays above minimum wage but only towards college is a great idea but I’m not so dumb as to think it’s volunteering.
People who support the program (or Obama) strongly will call it volunteering because they think it sounds a lot better in support of their position. The same way Jonah Goldberg thinks that “slavery” sounds better for his position. It’s the same fucking thing from different sides of the issue.
1jpb
He still hasn’t sunk to the low of “defending” his book with Stewart.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=147884&title=jonah-goldberg
Regarding non-stop material. Consider Rush for the last couple of days. He’s continuing to disparage the lowly status of BHO’s plane. I’m sure that his audience can relate as they also jet about in proper style.
And, there was Prager today. He was upset because his producers where playing a clip. They were including BHO’s sentences before the “revise” comment. The full BHO clip demonstrated that BHO was being consistent about his plans to end the war. It was funny: the producers kept replaying the whole clip, so Prager kept getting more and more flustered. Finally, he had to quickly cram in his preplanned rant before they went to a commercial break.
I wonder how many folks (like me) listen to wingnut radio for the laughs?
jibeaux
It’s volunteer in that it is both optional and community-service oriented. Maybe you could explain how it’s conscripted instead.
Cassidy
Zifnab- by oppressing my snark, I am feeling very slavelike…Personally I support mandatory public service. Be it the military or the Humane Society, anything that fosters pride in the community is a good thing.
Delia
Oh noes. Obama is beginning to remind me of FDR, what with all those public works programs he had to help poor people get an education and all. Except that Barack’s not white and rich and a traitor to his class.
jibeaux
And what, exactly, would you call an optional program to receive tax credits for community service? Calling it “slavery” which is patently ridiculous. Calling an optional program to receive tax credits for community service “volunteering” is patently not. If it’s the
, then so is calling the Iraq war a blueberry pancake.
chopper
its a semantic quibble. yeah, getting a tax break is technically a monetary incentive. that being said, if i give away anything to a charity (like my old car), i can write it off and get a tax break. i wouldn’t say that i got money for the car though. i still gave it away.
Wilfred
What about stop-loss soldiers being kept on in Iraq/Af?
clone12
Kirk,
Self selection will not undermine the results by exactly what you said in your third reply.
That self-motivated students volunteer for community services in school districts who don’t mandate it won’t matter in this case because you are comparing the academic distribution of all students between two districts, not just students who choose to volunteer for community services. If the studies Obama cited showed that school A has a higher average academic score than school B when all students are measured then it’s pretty good evidence that there is a link between community service and academic performance.
Again, you are claiming that Obama’s studies are undermined by self-selection because they only look at students who volunteer at non-mandate schools. If you can cite these papers I can look it up to see if they are indeed doing that, but I am skeptical that is what they did because a) it is incredibly expensive to conduct a individual survey like that when grabbing basic school level performances is much cheaper and more relevant to the question at hand and b)any paper dumb enough to do this would be flogged by an army of academic armed with wet noodles. and c) did I mention it would be incredibly expensive for them to do what you are claiming they are doing?
D. Mason
Are you seriously trying to float the turd that because it’s voluntary it’s also volunteer? If so I do 40 hours of volunteer work every week. Nevermind that I get paid.
Cassidy
w vincent- Since none of your allusions are about the US Military,then my answer doesn’t matter.
chopper
do you get paid with a tax break?
YellowJournalism
What bothers me about it, especially at the college and university levels, is the effects of a mandated program on people who are already trying to juggle study, miscellaneous graduation requirements, families, and a “summer job”.
I had community service requirements for high school honor society, student government, and later as a requirement in my teacher education courses. The thing I found somewhat ridiculous about most of these required hours was the fact that the powers-that-be were more concerned about the documentation of my hours rather than what I actually gained from the service, especially in the case of the eduaction courses where services could often be loosely connected to what we were studying. And no, I did not always come away feeling good about my service or feeling like I gained some kind of stronger citezenship role.
However, it’s not slavery, nor is it, as others have noted, true volunteerism. I wonder, too, about the burden this places on some charitable organizations who will not/are not equipped to handle some students who are resentful or angry and really not ready to serve.
D. Mason
To me the crux is here. You didn’t give the car away to get the tax break , you did it out of charity(in this example). However there are circumstances where giving is done to receive the associated tax break and in those cases it is doing something good and mutually beneficial, not charity. Some people take it so far that they unload garbage at goodwill bins and call it charity on their taxes, to me it’s bullshit. Same thing with this program. If this program shakes out that a college student has an extra 4k per year to spend on his education I call it working for $40 per hour. Part of “volunteer work” to me is the spirit in which it is done. I believe my statements here are in line with the definition of the word volunteer, which specifically precludes work that is done for pay.
Yes it is a semantical argument and the only reason I bothered to take it up is because to me it’s no less ridiculous than Goldberg calling it slavery. Calling something by a different name to alter its palatability is the same when someone on the left does it as it is when someone on the right does it.
No but you can bet your ass that if I could get a part time job paying 5 times the going rate in tax credits that translated into equivalent bring home pay from my full time job, I would. I wouldn’t pretend to be doing charity either.
AkaDad
Since I was forced into educational slavery, I’m demand satisfaction through reparations.
ThymeZone
What’s the beef? I am forced into involuntary servitude in order to get health insurance.
I have to get health care in order to be able to work, and I have to work in order to get the health care.
What a rat race. I call it “Republicanism” for lack of a better term.
Thank you, Bill Frist.
Genine
Its not mandatory either. A person cannot volunteer and continue to pay for college the old-fashioned way: family money, scholarship and/or going into debt up to your eyeballs.
Besides, the Peace Corp. has similar programs, kids volunteer and get money for college and/or reductions on student loan repayments, yet no one has their panties in a bunch about that.
Also, Obama said he will make resources available for schools to implement his programs. Which is better than some who mandate something and don’t give money for it. NCLB, anyone?
Obama isn’t mandating anything, nor is anything required. He’s just offering incentives to increase community involvement.
Let’s have some perspective, here. Or, not, its up to you.
grandpajohn
Too bad that Jonah wasn’t around during the era of my youth ( 50’s, 60’s ) and the era of that government policy called UMT or Universal Military training a period in which all able bodied males were expected to perform 2 years of involuntary servitude to good ol Uncle Sam. Slavery indeed by his standards.Of Course looking at his flabby ass, he is one of those who would have gotten some good out of daily exercise and marching and learning to have respect for any one who ranked above you in the chain of command
SpotWeld
Let’s call this what it is. It’s a government funded incentive to encourage desired results. Specifically
a) Increased College enrollement
b) Involvement in community enrichment
Whether this would actually work is certainly up for debate, since I can think of a lot of ways it could go wrong.
It is voluntary, but it isn’t pure volunteerism. Worth looking into at least?
YellowJournalism
Genine, let me debunch my panties here and say that I’m sorry I didn’t make myself clear. I should have said “if such a program were ever mandated” instead of implying that I thought it was going to be a mandated one.
Otherwise, it’s not a bad goal at all, and I think it’s great if his idea for the $4,000 actually happens. I look forward to seeing what exactly he plans to provide in terms of support and resources. My first reaction, though, is probably summed up best in SpotWeld’s post. I’m apprehensive, do not think it’s pure volunteerism, and yet I can see the overall benefits of such a program despite possible shortcomings.
And I absolutely agree about NCLB. Some great ideas in theory, but as an unfunded mandate, it stinks. In fact, maybe it’s because of the NCLB that I’m skeptical of Obama’s idea here. I’ve seen way too many promises of resources and funding with little to back it up later. (Again, though, I know that this will not be a mandated grad requirement, but even as a program that offers incentives, without the right guidelines and resources, it may backfire and negatively affect the services and possibly students it means to help.)
Dave_Violence
No, but the game has a price and Harvard – without ROTC will do just fine, no?
You know, any time you volunteer for something, you’re taking money away from someone else who would get paid for it… Then again, charity begins at home and what you want to do with your time is perfectly fine.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
I have never told this story before now, but Jonah has empowered me to step forward.
From the age of five until the age of sixteen, I was forced by an “institution of learning” to learn to read and write. I was also compelled—against my will—to learn mathematics as well., I had no choice. I was a slave.
But that is not the worst part. The worst is that I had become so indoctrinated that, like a kidnap victim who comes to identify with their kidnappers, I continued my slavery for an additional seven years of “my own free will.” I eventually earned a degree, but I now realize that it was A DEGREE IN SLAVERY.
I, too, have to share my secret shame.
A while ago, two people, both much bigger and stronger than me, made me perform intimate body functions as they saw fit. They required me to do what they wanted with my own body. They used positive conditioning, praising me for conforming to their perverted fascinations. But they also used negative conditioning, forcibly making me sit on the potty. They threatened me. They threatened me.
Oh, God, they brainwashed me. To this day I simply can’t break that operant conditioning. Curse them, curse them for removing my innocence.
Thank you, Jonah, for enabling we victims to speak our piece.
Faux News
I see Paul L. did his usual “Monkey flinging its feces” thing here on BJ and then sat back and smiled to watch everyone react.
Paul L. is colon cancer.
Genine
I see what you’re saying and, true, something could go wrong with it. But I certainly hope Obama as some sort of oversight or thought out the details enough where it shouldn’t be a problem. Such programs are common enough where the implementation shouldn’t be a source of drama.
Church Lady
Some random thoughts on “national service” for middle and high school students:
As a parent, I applaud community service requirements issued by private schools. We pay out the nose to have our children there, and if we don’t like the requirement, we are free to enroll our children elsewhere. As to a requirement by public schools, I do not think that would work – if you disagree with the requirement, where do you send your child to school?
As a minor, getting community service hours can be difficult. My son needed some and I had to go through hoops in order to find an approved organization, had to sign a waiver stating that I would not sue if he was injured while volunteering, and had to have numerous forms filled out verifying that he had completed the required hours. Frankly, the whole thing was a pain in the ass.
Where will the money come from? Are we going to continue to increase the national deficit in order to fund this boondoggle? Also, who will qualify for funds after volunteering? What new government office will be formed to keep track of everything? Will there be a family income limit for qualifying funds? So many questions, so few answers.
Before anyone accuses me of having a cold heart, please be aware that I volunteer for three organizations in my community and put in around five hundred hours per year between all of them. I do it because I can, it makes me feel good, and I feel like I am giving something back. These are the reasons to volunteer. If you get something of financial value in return, it is not volunteer work.
Cyrus
Heh. Second comment on the LA Times editorial when I looked there:
Hmmm. A politically-minded person in the LA area who thinks that Jonah Goldberg is a moron and the LA Times’ space is wasted on him? Well, that probably describes thousands of people.
But with the initials EK? Does anyone know if Ezra Klein is regretting working for the Prospect?
A Mom Anon
RE: the influx of teens into charities that aren’t ready…
It’s entirely possible the schools,as well as various charities will take it upon themselves to team up so the charities aren’t overwhelmed. I’ve actually witnessed this,and it worked out just fine.
chopper
you’re still giving away your car. if you put in a few hours at a soup kitchen, it’s charity work whether you do it to help the homeless or pad your resume or whatever.
chopper
it’s far less ridiculous. calling volunteer work volunteer work even when there’s a financial incentive is not the same as calling volunteer work ‘slavery’. that’s idiotic black-and-white thinking.
HRA
Our school district requires students in middle school and high school to volunteer for x number of hours. They do not recommend volunteering for an organization. Instead they recommend volunteering to find a need in their own neighborhood in which to offer a free service and later give a written account of it in a short essay. IMHO it beats being enslaved to nintendo, the TV, the PC, etc. In some cases it trims the fat, too. Best of all it makes one feel good.
Someone wrote about not having the time to volunteer while going to college. I traveled 20+ miles one way daily to go to work 9-5, went to evening classes at the university, kept a check on the last 2 teens, ran a household, got a 3.9 average and volunteered on the weekends. Never say never.