One of the craziest memes that the right-wingers have tried to float over the past few months is the notion that Obama is arrogant. I simply do not see it, as I see a guy who goes out of his way to be non-confrontational and humble. That doesn’t mean he can’t land a jab, I just see a pretty decent, mild-mannered fellow when I look at Obama, not some arrogant prick like Bush or Cheney or McCain. I guess most of them realize they can’t call him uppity, so they stick to arrogant.
At any rate, was cruising the Obama website, and this is what I found happens when you go to a bad link:
Yeah. This guy and his campaign just exude arrogance. Wankers.
Rick Taylor
That’s what came to my mind when I saw Palin’s speech at the convention. She’s just been chosen to a position where she may become the powerful position in the land, and what’s her response to people who perhaps have sincere questions about her qualifications? To treat them with contempt; to call them elitists. To go on about how experience as a city council member involves work, unlike a community organizer. Now there was condescending arrogance. Obama had to answer similar criticisms, and he certainly didn’t respond that way; he’d have been rightfully roasted if he did.
JL
I actually think that sending Sarah to the UN to meet Foreign Leaders is odd..
What exactly is meant by “make key connections”. Is it to early to drink?
SpotWeld
You want the reason why right-wingers are calling Obama arrogant?
It’s like working as volunteer security at a science fiction convention. (Yeah, I’m a nerd… anyone surprised?) When you’re security, it’s your job to put being a fan aside for a bit and tell the other attendees that they have to stop hitting people with stupid costume props, to stop trying to swipe stuff from the dealers, to stop cutting into the registration line.
In short, when you’re convention security your an equal to everyone else as far as being a fan goes, but you also are the one who doesn’t let an other fan act like an ass.
And invareiably, when they eventually get tossed from the con the first think the jerk/fan says “Secruity is a bunch of stuck-up facists”.
Obama is vilified because he represents, to right-wingers, an equal who will not let them get away with being an ass.
Jake
Yeah I’m pretty sure the GOP candidate’s the asshole in this race.
Jake
The other right-wing criticism of Obama that’s thoroughly in douchebagland is this notion that he can only speak well when he’s reading from a teleprompter.
A bunch of them just love to make fun of the fact that he often says “uh” and “uhm” when responding to questions. After all, that sort of thing just goes to show that he’s not as smart as all of their white, racist friends.
PeterJ
Here’s some before and after photos from USGS of the Bolivar Peninsula in Texas.
NR
I think calling Obama arrogant is more a PUMA thing (mixq has done it repeatedly, for example). It’s bullshit, of course, but that’s where the PUMAs live.
Dave L
John, I live around Pittsburgh and know roughly the same part of the country that you do. And there’s no mystery about why they’re pushing this – it’s a shout-out to the marginal racists, people who are careful not to use the N-word but are still profoundly uneasy about this Obama guy.
Arrogant means he thinks he’s better than us; he’s pushy, and doesn’t seem to realize that he ought to be getting permission to speak or even have an independent idea; he’s not grateful for all the help he’s gotten in life, just because he’s black; he’s unpredictable – hey, he might walk right up to you and put an arm around you! – and so on.
“Arrogant” pretty well covers the “uppity” territory (and does double duty for “pushy” if you’re talking about Jews!) It also gives these people a shiny, new acceptable code-word to use and share when trying to put a public face on their instinctive disliking of Obama. And it’s generally just another way of reminding people, over and over, that Obama isn’t white.
dmsilev
At least one fairly prominent right-winger is stupid enough to actually call Obama uppity.
Given that Congressman Westmoreland’s previous claim to fame was (a) his fervent advocacy for putting the 10 Commandments in various government buildings and (b) his inability to name more than three of said Commandments when he was interviewed by Stephen Colbert, “stupid” shouldn’t really come as much of a shock.
-dms
Dreggas
So in an hour or two at a cocktail party she’ll be well versed in foreign policy issues? Let me guess she’ll get to look in putie-putes soul.
dallas
‘we are all imperfect?’
c’mon, that’s like something jesus would say. just more evidence that obama thinks he’s like the second coming or something. how much more arrogant could you be?
Llelldorin
Jake, thank you!
That was driving me utterly nuts during the primary. Obama and Clinton both have odd verbal ticks when they’re tired: Obama “ums” a lot and swallows words, while Clinton’s voice gets ragged-sounding.
So the loons on the right all declare that Obama is an idiot who can only be eloquent when reading from a teleprompter, and that Clinton is “shrill” and/or “weeping.”
Reaching for stereotypes much, guys?
Ripley
You’d think Obama would have learned his lesson in 2000, when the American people rejected his bid for the Presidency, instead of trying to ride on the coattails of a failed Presidency while claiming he was different now.
Incertus
If you have a couple of bucks not earmarked for the Obama campaign or for a local charity or whatever and you want to fuck with Sarah Palin, Amy has a suggestion for you.
protected static
An interesting if only semi-related point of comparison – the McCain campaign doesn’t even have 404 messages…
Go to http://www.johnmccain.com/qwerty.htm and see the default Microsoft IIS 404 page in all its bland glory.
t jasper parnell
This is change we can believe in. Sarah Palin now claims that she fired Monegan because he was too aggressive in seeking federal support fora program that
That’s what a Maverick would do.
Zifnab25
I think the racial argument to this is utter bullshit. The notion that Barack Obama is being singled out due to the color of his skin and not the content of his political agenda is rather naive. Wingnuts never called Condi Rice or Colin Powell arrogant or condescending. Michael Steele never gets tarred as an elite east coast yuppie. The fact that Barack Obama is black has absolutely zilch to do with the GOoPer criticism of him.
That said, unlike with John Kerry or Al Gore, baseless character attacks against Barack Obama can’t just be swept under the rug as standard Rovian politics. Barack’s blackness – and the GOP’s history of bigotry – cause people to reevaluate the character assassination attempts against him.
If someone could have linked John Kerry to a madrassa, you better believe the terrorist conspiracy theories would have been flying as thickly as they do against Barry. But against Obama, “Muslim” isn’t just a snipe at his religion, its a snipe at his skin color. The GOP doesn’t want to make their smear campaigns about race if they can avoid it. They’re hard up enough as it is in bastion blue states. Pissing off large blocks of racially sensitive voters doesn’t benefit them at all. You’ll notice how some of the more overt racist campaigns – buttons asking if the White House will be called the Black House, usage of the N-word, Obama-monkey comparisons – tend to get stomped out by the higher ups in the party pretty quick. He gets labeled a communist or a fascist far more often than he gets called out on skin color.
Tithonia
I know it’s terrible framing, but I do think this election has finally been boiled down to its essence:
Smart vs Stupid.
AkaDad
By telling me that you’re imperfect, your not letting me decide for myself. That’s elitist.
Stuck in the Fun House
Just curious. Is the same Zifnab with the 25 added or a different Zifnab .
Cabalamat
He wants the most powerful job in the world, of course he’s arrogant. But no more so than McCain or any other politician.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
That’s not your father’s Zifnab.
Brian J
So I caught the tail end of “The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer.” One of the topics was naturally the economic crisis and how the campaigns were planned to deal with it. The guests were Robert Reich for Obama and Doug “McCain invented the Blackberry” Holtz-Eakin for McCain. Towards the end, the discussion went into who was out in front of this issue, trying to address this problem and others like it before the shit hit the fan. As the segment came to a close, in his parting statements, Holtz-Eakin said that McCain could be counted on because he’s consistently been trying to make markets work. He claimed that McCain, unlike Obama, hadn’t had fifteen different tax plan and hadn’t flip flopped on public financing and–I shit you not–town hall debates. I get the there was bound to be a healthy amount of politics in this discussion, but there were a number of issues that could have been brought up. McCain’s top economic adviser brought up mother fucking town hall forums. It was at that moment that I realize life is imitating comedy far too much these days. I just…I just give up.
Andrew
One doesn’t follow the other. Neither Condi nor Colin ran against Republicans in a bid to become President. That’s obviously a factor.
Plus, the simple fact that Obama is neither “arrogant” nor “presumptuous” is telling. They’re obviously not calling him those things because of their factual accuracy, so they must be calling him those things to engender an emotional response.
Now, it may be that some people are simply trying to paint Obama as simple arrogant; but the fact that his *is* half-black irrevocably colors that. For a large segment of the population, it will be read as a dog-whistle even if it wasn’t intended as such, and when you have Republicans who are far less willing to be delicate and actually out-and-out *say* uppity, it’s not impossible or implausible to suspect that some instances of “arrogant” are simply coded expressions of the same racism.
Since it’s not possible to tell the “innocent” lie meant to engender an emotional response, and the “racist” lie meant to engender the same emotional response, only stronger, the way to go is to stop fucking lying about Obama being arrogant and instead attack him on actual grounds. Even if you want to restrict yourself to vapid personality attacks, attack him for being too calm and cool. At least he *is* calm and cool.
The Grand Panjandrum
Imperfection indeed. But consistently imperfect.
Sullivan has my favorite Governor Palin criticism of the day:
Dayamn. More compulsive and less intelligent than … ouch!
The pitch of this criticism about outright lies by former POW McCain and Governor Palin seems to be growing in intensity.
When you listen to Obama in sit down interviews he answers questions in his OWN words. Yes he does um and uh quite a bit, but I generally find that a mark of thoughtfulness in a person of his obvious intellect. After eight years of the former Cheerleader, fucking PeeWee Herman sounds like a Rhodes Scholar.
Jesus! These rat fuckers in the GOP are killing me. Now that’s strategery you can believe in.
Brian J
1. Gut instinct can be a way to make decisions, if all other areas are covered first. In other words, if a boss interviewing candidate for a job sees that the guy has the proper qualifications and seems to have a good feeling, it makes sense to go with that guy over someone else who has the same qualifications but gives him an uneasy feeling. The modern Republicans, especially Bush, seem to leave out the most important part. That’s one reason why we see people like Harriet Miers nominated to the Supreme Court.
2. I’m not entirely sure why the Republicans get away with talking about half the country with such sniveling contempt, but they do. It’s just disgusting in so many different ways, because it divides us. It can also be bizarre, like when they attack Massachusetts, a state whose existence, as Bill Maher has said, was crucial in our founding.
JoyIA
Recent lurker, first time poster…thanks for the great blog!
@anyone who’s complaining about the “imperfect” message at the O site, do you really freaking believe that Barack himself told the site admin to use that? Come on, they’re a bunch of people trying to keep the site updated and they decided to jack around and put that message up. Good god, like Barack has time to sit with the web folks and say “yes, let’s use ‘we are all imperfect’ whenever there’s going to be an error message and I’ll click on every tab to make sure it’s there.”
Brian J
Maybe they feel that if she hob knobs with the right people, the leader of Georgia will call her next time there’s a crisis. Of course, this is apparently based on the belief that “making connections” equals thirty five years in the Senate working on foreign relations.
james
The guy with 250k per year in servants is ‘one of us’.
The teacher and community organizer is ‘the arrogant elitist’
Dude, that is the definition of ‘dog whistle’. The sekrit muslim shit is just icing on the cake for these ass clowns, most of whom had a hand in peddling that as well.
Jake
Looks like the Fed’s going to bail out AIG:
I guess the Dow falling 500pts Monday was all the government could stomach.
geezer
If he were a republican, the word would be “confident”.
WIIIAI
Why were you looking for an image of Obama as a bottom anyway?
SGEW
As far as I’m concerned, this opinion piece by Tim Wise (h/t Ta-Nehisi), titled This is Your Nation on White Privilege, points out the racial double standard we’re seeing in the media.
Two choice graphs:
He makes a few border-line accusations (i.e., would be better explained by IOKIYAR, rather than racism), but IMHO it’s otherwise spot on.
The Gimp
NR says:
Yep. It comes from Hillary supporters in the Primary, and specifically from the debate where he said she was likable enough.
By all accounts, everyone who know him says his sense of humor is very dry and snarky. He was cracking a joke. They took him literally and thus the arrogant meme was born.
Calouste
The loeader of Georgia might be the only foreign leader interested in talking with Sarah Palin. I certainly can’t see any Western European leaders lining up for a chat. Palin is not someone they would want to be seen as associated with. Well, Berlusconi probably is the exception. He makes even Palin look honest.
skippy
that’s because those examples are too damn obvious, and if the gop elite doesn’t strike them down, it’s easy for the dems to tar the whole party w/the “racist” lable.
but that’s why dog-whistle politics work so well. there’s absolutely no way to “prove” that “arrogant” = “uppity” = “don’t know his place for a darkie” w/o reaching hard.
kind of like when a kid is punching his brother and his mom says “don’t punch your brother” so the kid puts his balled fist right up next to his brother’s face and no further.
there’s no way to prove the kid is about to punch his brother.
but we know he’s doing it.
cgp
Cmon guys, we can do better than this.
jcricket
It’s all projection on their part (what they’re guilty of they accuse you of) and it’s amazingly successful, but if America ever tires of it, the GOP is fucking toast, because it’s all they got. There is almost no policy area in which the GOP is on the side of reality or where the American publics opinions actually lie – economically, socially, foreign policy wise and so on. All the GOP has at this point is the politics of destruction and resentment (maybe some end-times theology too).
I watch with incredulity John Fund saying Obama’s gonna lose because he’s an “extreme liberal” (this is on Bill Maher’s show) and I want to fucking punch him in the mouth repeatedly. There is no one the Democrats could nominate, not even Pat Buchanan, that wouldn’t be tarred and feathered (no racism implied) by the Republicans. They smear, then smear some more, then piss on you and laugh about it.
I’m not saying we start doing the same – but that we stop thinking there’s some way to inoculate ourselves against these attacks or prevent them or even adequately respond. The key is going on the offensive (in our own way) and owning the debate, the narrative, the message.
If Obama can take that kind of control, he’ll peel off enough people to win. But trying to out-smear Republicans won’t work, and trying to undo the 40 years of damage they’ve done to this country will take probably as many years worth of work. The devaluation they’ve put on logic, learning, expertise, and science alone has probably set us back farther than any trillion dollar deficit caused by an unnecessary war and tax cuts ever did.
SGEW
Has anyone here ever read Al Gore’s “The Assault On Reason“?
When I think that he was almost president, my brain shuts down and pretends it’s living in a virtual simulation.
TCG
I have not seen this story linked yet.
An appellate court has ruled that police may taser handcuffed and non-threatening suspects.
Guantanamo style Governance has come home.
Jake
SGEW,
I’m reading it right now. Parts of it are very interesting, and I like that I’m reading a book by a politician and actually learning something.
And yet, parts of it are very dry. Puts me right to sleep.
jcricket
At my gym yesterday I was talking to a guy who was reminiscing about Jimmy Carter’s speech during the energy crisis (given in his sweater, from the white house) about turning down thermostats and other conservation measures. And they all laughed. No one, not even the educated elites, is free of bad ideas or tom-foolery (eugenics or cold fusion anyone?) – but the debasement of reason and the mockery of simple, actual common-sense is killing America. We elevate redneck-reasoning as “common sense” – if it sounds complex it’s probably false (reminds me of people saying, “Yer a Jew, right? I could tell by the book learnin”). I dunno if it’s better anywhere else, and I’m not planning on moving, but I do truly weep for how much of a hole the Republicans have put us in.
Also, Al Gore lied about creating the Internet and wants to destroy America by making us give up our cars (oh, and he looks goofy with a beard). That’s why I support banning books by Al Gore.
South of I-10
You are all probably sick of my posting about nothing but hurricanes on a politics blog. Since this is an open thread, I have one more note on hurricanes, so please bear with me. A lot of the ongoing operations (I guess just for LA coastal parishes, but maybe into Texas) are based here in my town. I have seen search and rescue crews from Florida, Missouri, Arkansas, Colorado and Mississippi. I saw a convoy of power trucks from Florida, North Carolina, Arkansas and Georgia. I have seen ambulances from all over the place. I would like to thank all of those people for their hard work. FEMA will find a way to screw this up again, but those people who come here and search for the living and get the power going are the ones who deserve the most credit for any hurricane recovery. If any of you know any of the people working here south of I-10, please thank them for me.
SGEW
Yeek, that’s a nasty case. After a quick skim, a few thoughts:
Th’ Circ decides the case on the law: the specifics of the case (gruesome as they may be, as the dissent points out) will not change this. And as far as a strict reading of the law goes, the plaintiff was resisting arrest (technically speaking). Therefore, the arresting officer may use non-lethal methods in order to force compliance. Fucked up, but pretty standard “strict construction” sorta stuff. About what you’d expect.
This case better be appealed. This is some fucked up shit. We need some good, humane jurisprudence on tasers before it gets out of hand (i.e., even more out of hand, viz. into catastrophic UN sanctions territory).
The special concurrence by Dubina’s a treat:
Not that’s a gutless concurrence. Thomas, take note.
SGEW
Definitely not. Actually, I’d be pretty uninformed on the actual damage suffered along the coast if it wasn’t for your posts (and a few others I’ve stumbled across in the vast internets), so I sincerely thank you for the updates. Keep it up.
I just don’t have anything to add, besides hoping the best for those affected and heaping scorn upon FEMA.
myiq2xu
When I first started visiting Balloon Juice in 2006, I wondered how an apparently sane and intelligent person like John Cole could have written some of the stuff he had previously posted in support of Bush and Cheney.
I obviously arrived here during John’s lucid period.
BTW – Humble people don’t create their own faux-Presidential seal or rent stadiums with Greek temples just so they can give speeches.
SGEW
Who the fuck said he was humble? He’s trying to become the POTUS, fer th’ love o’ . . .
Oh, never mind.
tBone
My 2nd grader’s rationale for liking Obama (aside from the fact that he’s “really cool” and “you know, brown”) is that he seems “nice and calm, not all mad and mean like that other guy.”
I never talk politics around the kids, so this is something he picked up on his own. Really, at this point, I think we’d be better off capping the voting age at 18.
tBone
Also, as I’ve long suspected, my 2nd grader is smarter than myiq2xu.
PeterJ
There’s mold that’s smarter than myiq0.8xu.
SGEW
Fair enough, I suppose. He didn’t really try to make a burning page-turner. I admit that there were sections that I thought could use some more aggressive and/or dynamic editing.
Right on. Also, the fact that the right wingers sometimes quote Thomas Paine to support their opinions makes me incandescently angry.
I actually kinda liked the beard.
Jake
Yawn. Is that the best you’ve got there, jackass?
SGEW
Hannah Montana for President! Montana/Barney ’08!
(It couldn’t be worse than McCain/Palin, after all)
Litlebritdifrnt
BTW – I have decided I am going to stock up on flame retardant because if Palin gets in I am going to need it. Apparently she was elected governor because a witch hunter “prayed for it”. I am so fucked.
SGEW
Must read.
I swear to you all, this is the funniest thing I’ve seen all week. Yes, funnier than Pundit Kitchen. Even funnier than the new Get Your War On. This is some serious funny.
(this link brings you teh funny): Black Comic Introduces McCain.
(h/t Sully)
Oh my god that’s some funky shit. Nothing on the internet can top my evening, so I’m turning the computer off now.
Chuck
But that’s the nicest-looking 404 page I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen em all. You gotta admit it’s arrogant to be so damn good.
…right? It’s bad to be good at stuff, isn’t it?
Chuck
But that’s the nicest-looking 404 page I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen em all. You gotta admit it’s arrogant to be so damn good.
…right? It’s bad to be good at stuff, isn’t it?
Delia
In this photo of the damage from Ike, from They Gave Us A Republic you can see all the oil slicks swirling around in the water. There has been virtually no news about the damage from this hurricane. It’s all “nothing to see here, move along now.”
I live in the Northwest so I’m a long way away from it. All the economic and campaign news helps to drown it out, but they’re also trying to keep quiet any damage to oil rigs or refineries in the gulf. It might hurt their “drill baby drill” routine.
Chuck
^^
w00t!
Delia
In other wacko news, I just wandered by NoIQ for the first time in many weeks. Agent Flowbee is busy defending the honor and intelligence of Sarah Palin, as are most of his busy acolytes.
Now you don’t have to go.
Litlebritdifrnt
PS) John I am curious you use the term “wankers” it is not an American term, it is either Brit or Canadian, I am assuming you are the latter cause I think I would have caught on if you were the former. (When I first moved over here and watched an episode of “Married with children” and discovered that the wife’s maiden name was “Wanker” I about fell out of my chair) Forgive me if this is something in BJ folklaw of which I am unaware.
L. Ron Obama
A lot of Americans use the term ‘wanker’ these days.
Litlebritdifrnt
L. Ron – thanks, I have never heard it used over here. I was not even sure that Americans knew what it meant :)
blogreeder
That’s an Obama fault. You can’t be non-confrontational and humble in foreign relations. The world will step all over you. Carter was like that and look what a few students in Iran did to him.
Tattoosydney
rawshark
On ESPN John McCain just said MMA fighters need a union. I don’t know what to say about that.
blogreeder
Tattoosydney, you seem to be having trouble. “Blockquotes” are used for quoting someone. Then you comment on the quote. See how that works? That’s how adults use them, anyway. Good luck and I hope you finish grade school.
L. Ron Obama
When tensions ratchet up and Putin says something mean to poor little Palin, we will just attack the Russian media as sexist, and thereby win.
And Colbert said it better as I was typing this out.
Tattoosydney
Really? Please tell me more – I am obviously not aware of how this internet thing works.
I thought that blockquotes were a device for mocking drive-by Rethuglican wankers when they drop inane arguments into a thread in the hope of getting someone to try to argue substantively with them, so that the aforementioned wanker can then ignore the substantive arguments and continue parroting their McCain talking points over and over, because it feeds their little egos to have the thread be all about them…
Kevin
Ding! Another Internet tradition blogtroller is not aware of.
blogreeder
No, see that’s where you’re wrong. Of course, you can use them like that. But that shows immaturity.
And I’m not republican. I’m more liberation, thank you. Liberal would really be a better term but that terms been hijacked.
Of all people parroting in this thread, I’m the least offender. This blog is like an echo chamber. I’m opening the door a little bit. And I do try to argue substantively. It’s hard when the retort is
Tattoosydney
If you are looking for maturity, boy are you in the wrong place…
Please tell me more about this “liberation” of which you speak. What is your position on the role of government in relation to:
* abortion rights
* homosexuality
* gay marriage
* decriminalisation of illicit drugs
michelle
Factually inaccurate.
Did I do it right greeder?
blogreeder
See, we can agree on something. This definitely the wrong place. I just try to do my part to bring it up to code, so to speak. I believe you can have snarkyness without immaturity. I’m on a mission…
Some of these are controversial areas so there is no simple answer.
Should government regulate abortion procedures to insure the health of the woman?
The only governments regulating homosexuality usually end in -stan.
Gay marriage is interesting. It seems to me another word is being hijacked. It breaks the fundamental ceremony, who is the bride and who is the groom? When you have to ask that, you don’t have a marriage ceremony anymore. It should be called something else. But that’s just my opinion. In order to have gay marriage work across the country, the federal government has to step in, no? Every State would have to be forced to recognize it if one State allows it.
Decriminalization of illicit drugs would be a good start. I would be able to read all the comments all the way through.
What is your opinion?
blogreeder
Oh, oh. I misspelled libertarian.
The spell checker must be liberal.
blogreeder
Wasn’t the narrative at the time that a group of students held American hostages? Yea, I do know it was the government. I was being snarky.
oh really
Since I don’t personally know Obama, I have no idea whether he is or isn’t arrogant.
While I agree that he often “goes out of his way to be non-confrontational and humble,” I’ve seen clips of him where his mannerisms and delivery could be interpreted as arrogant. It’s not a big deal to me, because I’m pre-disposed to support him, but I can imagine those less favorably inclined seeing him as arrogant or condescending.
The other thing that you seem to have missed is that Obama is an African American…running for president. If you’re a Republican, that’s got to seem like the apex of arrogance, the ultimate in uppityness.
On the other hand, is there anything more arrogant than a complete pinhead like McCain pretending he has anything constructive to offer this country as president? Let’s see, he knows how to win wars, and reform Washington, and reform Wall Street, and fix health care, and…. Who the hell is he kidding? (Apart from tens of millions of Americans.)
And Palin trumps him several times over. I really enjoyed Sarah telling us all what a humbling experience being chosen as McCain’s running mate was. Humbling? If she had the IQ of Willow Ptarmigan she’d realize she was out of her depth as mayor of Wasilla. But ya know, Charlie. Ya just can’t blink, Charlie, ya just can’t blink.
Tattoosydney
It appears that we have at least some points where we don’t violently disagree…
I believe that every woman should have the unfettered right to choose whether or not to have an abortion up to 26 weeks in any circumstance.
I believe that I should be allowed to enter into a civil union with my boyfriend which grants us all of the rights and responsibilities of the current heterosexual marriage. However, I think that “marriage” as such should be left to the churches. I think the solution is to call everyone’s state sanctioned “marriage” a “civil union”. If people also want to go to a church after that and get “married”, they should be allowed to, and the church should have the right to refuse to “marry” whoever they want.
Sometimes illegal drugs are the only thing that enables me to get through these threads. They should be legalised, regulated and taxed.
Oh, and I believe in the death penalty in certain circumstances.
My turn for a question: Why do you support McCain/Palin? It would be great if you could answer by enumerating their good points, rather than Obama’s bad ones…
oh really
In general, I think your solution is workable, but it needs to be clarified.
Churches should not be in the business of granting civil rights and legal benefits.
Therefore, everyone who wants the benefits (and hassles) of what we today call marriage must have the ceremony performed civilly.
Then, if someone wants to add a religious ceremony, it would be between the couples and the church, synagogue, mosque, etc.
The important point is that the religious ceremony would not bestow any civil or legal rights on anyone, so to get visitation rights, inheritance, etc. being married in a religious ceremony would not be enough.
That way if a gay couple wanted to be “joined,” they would only need to go through the civil ceremony. If they wanted to try to find a religious organization that would perform a religious ceremony, that would be up to them.
If a straight religious couple wanted to be joined (and get legal benefits), they would have to have a civil ceremony performed first and then the religious ceremony.
Today, we allow religious organizations a power they have no right to have. The two ceremony approach also shows proper respect for the separation of church and state. The current system does not.
blogreeder
They are sounding more like Reagan these days. I don’t know why, but Palin really excites me because of all the candidates she looks more like change to me. A complete outsider. I don’t think the religious thing matters because if it did, there would be more evidence of it during her term as Governor. I know we heard about “book banning” but no books were ever banned. According to Palin, the question had to do with what if a group of parents wanted a book banned. The reason I’m talking about Palin is that old poopypants doesn’t excite me at all. He doesn’t sound like change.
We need change. I want someone to go in and shake things up. Bush wasn’t really a fiscal conservative like he was suppose to be. No way no how.
Tattoosydney
That was what I was trying to say, but put much more elegantly…
Tattoosydney
Clarifies:
That was what I was trying to say, but you put it much more elegantly…
oh really
If all we need is change, my cat is available. Your understanding of Palin seems extraordinarily superficial.
“A complete outsider.” Again, my cat qualifies. And for better or worse, unlike Palin, my cat never lies.
Did you watch her performance on ABC? She demonstrated zero understanding of any issue raised by Gibson. Her answers were what one expects of a beauty pageant contestant. I saw a person who was so far out of her depth (as is McCain; as was Bush) that electing her to high office would be a joke, if it weren’t so dangerous.
There are tens of millions of Americans who, as president, would “shake things up.” But that alone is not actually an intelligent goal, since there are far more ways to shake things up disastrously than there are to shake things up constructively.
The picture of Palin that has emerged since she was chosen by McCain is that of an intellectual lightweight, a religious extremist, and a vindictive, secretive, dishonest, novice.
You want change? If Sarah Palin ever gets to the White House, you’ll get change, if going from the disaster we have now to the even bigger disaster she promises to bring can be called change.
rawshark
re: gay marriage,
I heard an angle earlier today I hadn’t previously heard. If gay marriage becomes federal law any church that refused to recognize or conduct gay marriages would lose their tax exempt status. That scares them a bit.
blogreeder
I don’t know. This would give more power to the state which as a knee-jerk libertarian I would oppose. I’ve never seen it proposed this way, so it’s something to think about. (pun intended…)
protected static
Oh, bullshit. No one is going to force any church to perform a gay marriage. A Justice of the Peace or a Judge, yes – a church, no. They’re afraid of losing more of their power to sanction ‘proper’ relationships – that’s all.
blogreeder
I think yours does too. What was your initial reaction when she was picked? Have you changed your mind since then?
I think she’s accomplished things in Alaska that fall into the constructive category. She did lower spending and opened up the pipeline bid to others and that will eventually save the state revenue.
Well, that’s your opinion.
Tattoosydney
See, I don’t believe this… My impression is that she likes to present herself as a complete outsider, but that that is really just a mechanism for getting on the inside…
My question (and I am asking this because I don’t know the answer) is: what did she change in Alaska? What did she do that was so different from the people she replaced?
I can’t share your confidence. Let’s assume that she doesn’t really want to make religious changes (which I don’t think is true btw). She is now being hailed as some kind of saviour for the religious right. My fear in that case is that (if she gets into power) she will be so loaded up with the expectations of the religious right that she will be forced to meet their agenda.
She has spent the last two years running a state that (I understand) is flush with funds… does she have any experience of being a “fiscal conservative” in the difficult financial envionment the US seems to have found itself in?
My real concern with her is that I think she is a pathological liar… she seems to lie, and keep repeating lies, even when she knows they are lies… That worries me.
Blue Raven
Blogreeder, go look up Nehemiah Scudder and get back to us before you start claiming Palin’s in some zone relative to mostly harmless. Yes, he’s a fictional character created by Robert Heinlein. This means you may run into words you don’t recognize, such as ones with more than two syllables. But it might do you some good to stretch your brain.
And myiq, thank you for the soporific. I appreciate that you took the time to make sure I could fall asleep just that much faster tonight.
blogreeder
You could be right. Why do politicians enter politics in the first place? For power, usually. All I can say is she seems as sincere to me as I would suspect Obama seems to you.
She got rid of people that were corrupted. The point about the pipeline deal is that she brought it to open bid. She did use veto power to reduce spending. She does have a high approval rating.
You do have a point. If those people get her in, then they would want some “favors”.
You’ve been getting that from here. She has stretched things, yes. But again, all politicians do. They complain here that she only uses scripts, and yet they say she is liar. You can’t have it both ways unless she’s lying about what’s on those scripts.
Tattoosydney
Stop being reasonable. It makes it so much harder to hate you.
/snark
Blue Raven
No, she’s outright lied both because her script contains lies and her off-the-cuff remarks have been lies. That’s not having it both ways, that’s getting it in two holes at the same time sans lube.
blogreeder
I’ve read Heinlein. It’s been many many years. In fact, one of his books was the first book I read outside of grade school. I don’t remember Nehemiah. “By his Bootstraps” I think is the best time-travel story ever written. “All you Zombies” was kinda creepy.
blogreeder
Thanks. I’m just trying to calm down. Politics can really make ones blood boil.
Maybe catch you later…zzzz..
oh really
No, it doesn’t give the state any more power than it already has; it would simply remove power from the “church;” power they (religious organizations) should not have.
This proposal would separate civil from religious and give each its due. The “church” should not be able to confer or deny civil or legal rights — that is clearly the business of the state. The state has no business conferring religious blessing; that belongs to religious entities.
I don’t think this plan has any chance of acceptance for at least a generation, because it would require religious entities to give up power. I don’t see that happening in this country any time soon.
Tattoosydney
That’s better…
No – I have been getting it from sources all over the internet and MSM. You call it streatching the truth. I call it lying.
I don’t see how the two are mutually exclusive. She can read lies written for her by other people and still know that she is not telling the truth. That’s lying.
Conservatively Liberal
Hush now, wingnuts don’t do logic. I still believe that there are Republicans out there who do use logic, but they are exceedingly rare today. Not wingnuts. They live in their own reality and nothing can pierce it.
You will always be wrong, no matter how right you are. Besides, you are a furriner and furriners scare them, especially when the nasty furriner expresses an opinion contrary to theirs. Now if you agreed with them, it would be a whole different story! You just know that you would be loved to no end. Just stick to the good stuff!
They have not grasped the concept that the world does not revolve around them, that there are other people on this planet that matter other than republicans. Hell, most of them are still fighting over whether or not Jeebus had a pet triceratops that he rode to market. They create and live in their own reality, and everyone else is along for the ride (in the back seat, of course).
One day I hope some of them will grasp the concept of other people existing elsewhere in the world and that those people are just as important and valuable as they are, no more or no less. I know that is expecting the impossible, but I tempered that hope with the word some for a good reason.
There ain’t much hope for these people. Not until they are willing to see how blinded to reality they have been. Nothing else will crack that haze, they have to crack it themselves.
oh really
She has lied about more things in less time than any “politician” I’ve ever seen. And she has continued to repeat the same lies over and over even after it has been shown conclusively that they are lies. We enter the realm of pathological liar.
That is, to put it mildly, fatuous nonsense. Why waste time even typing stuff like that. Obviously, a candidate can offer talking points (biographical and other), have them scripted, and then repeat the script. It’s even possible that Palin, given the choice, would stop telling all the same lies over and over, but the “campaign” thinks they’re working so they tell her to keep lying. It doesn’t matter in any case. She is purposefully, repeatedly mouthing claims she knows to be untrue; claims that give voters a completely erroneous picture of who she is and what she’s done; and she would only do so if she chose, of her own volition, to do so.
Earlier you asked:
My initial reaction was…I didn’t know anything about her. I listened to her speech and was tremendously unimpressed. Subsequently, I’ve read countless media reports about her, watched her interview with Gibson, and read, watched, and listened to more explanations, defenses, and clarifications of her statements and qualifications that I care to remember.
Now, I have an idea of who she is and what qualities she brings to the job.
The short take: she is hopelessly out of her depth; she has less knowledge and understanding of issues than any governor should have and is an embarrassment as a VP nominee; she is a pathological liar; her accomplishments, such as the are, are wildly overrated or imaginary. She has a governing style that sounds suspiciously like that of Dick Cheney — an enemy of a free and open society, if ever there was one — except she lacks his experience and knowledge (however poorly he takes advantage of both).
Right Wing apologists haven’t been able to mount a credible defense of her qualifications, because there is none. Saying that living across from Russia gives her foreign policy experience may be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard from any campaign at any level.
Tattoosydney
It amazes me – blogreeder seems nice enough on the limited information I have. He calls himself a libertarian… I have a lot of sympathy for what I understand the libertarian view to be (being an odd and highly contradictory mix of lefty interventionist/libertarianism myself)…
I can understand how a “right wing republican” can look at McCain and Palin and thing “yay! I want me one of those”.
However, I just cannot comprehend how a libertarian or a true “conservative” can look at either McCain or Palin and think that anything they actually believe in is reflected in those two…
I am baffled, but that is quite common at the moment – it happens every time I look at 538…
Nonetheless, I keep telling myself that at least 51% of the US voting population must see through the masks that McCaion and Palin wear to the buzzing mucus dripping monsters that lie beneath…
Tattoosydney
w00t!!
Tattoosydney
w00t!!
oh really
I would take exception to this. I understand what you are saying and it seems to make sense, but what I can’t believe is that anyone of any ideological stripe, would want incompetents as president and vice president.
Palin is a no-brainer (i.e., she’s so obviously incompetent that it is difficult to imagine any sane, intelligent person who cares about this country wanting her anywhere near the Oval Office.)
But McCain is riding along on decades of being “a maverick.” However, listening to him try to discuss the issues leads me to one of two conclusions. Either he really earned his 894/899 ranking at Annapolis through general dimwittedness. And, yes, I’ve heard all about his bad behavior being responsible for his low class rank. The thing is, I get to watch him in action and he seems amazingly stupid. Of course, the alternative is age…he does resemble other people I’ve known whose mental capacities dimmed markedly in old age.
What matters is that neither McCain nor Palin should be allowed anywhere near the presidency.
So, even if McCain/Palin are attractive ideologically to neo-cons and other Right Wingers, I’d still expect them to want at least marginally competent figure heads for their little Machiavellian machinations. I could understand their (mistaken) belief that Cheney could back up Bush and keep him from screwing up too much (see how well that worked out?), but there is no strong member on the McCain/Palin ticket.
In the end, I can’t help but think that the people supporting Bush/Cheney and McCain/Palin are so ideologically brainwashed that they don’t realize that just being a good soldier isn’t enough. That’s why Republicans no longer represent small government or big government, they just represent bad government.
tattoosydney
Couldn’t agree more….
You’d think, but there doesn’t appear to be much evidence to support that… except John Cole and ex-Republicans like him … and god knows how many of them there are….
I think that again you have said what I was trying to say, and said it better… I can imagine someone who blindly votes Republican, without no thought, looking at McCain and Palin and wanting to vote for them…
It astounds me that someone who thinks about their politics enough to want to describe themselves as a “libertarian” or a “conservative” (rather than reflexively calling themselves a republican) can also look at McCain and Palin and consciously decide to vote for them…
tattoosydney
Couldn’t agree more….
You’d think, but there doesn’t appear to be much evidence to support that… except John Cole and ex-Republicans like him … and god knows how many of them there are….
I think that again you have said what I was trying to say, and said it better… I can imagine someone who blindly votes Republican, without no thought, looking at McCain and Palin and wanting to vote for them…
It astounds me that someone who thinks about their politics enough to want to describe themselves as a “libertarian” or a “conservative” (rather than reflexively calling themselves a republican) can also look at McCain and Palin and consciously decide to vote for them…
tattoosydney
Couldn’t agree more….
You’d think, but there doesn’t appear to be much evidence to support that… except John Cole and ex-Republicans like him … and god knows how many of them there are….
I think that again you have said what I was trying to say, and said it better… I can imagine someone who blindly votes Republican, without no thought, looking at McCain and Palin and wanting to vote for them…
It astounds me that someone who thinks about their politics enough to want to describe themselves as a “libertarian” or a “conservative” (rather than reflexively calling themselves a republican) can also look at McCain and Palin and consciously decide to vote for them…
Krista
I swear to the FSM, I have no idea why America has made the marriage thing so goddamned complicated.
Even before gay marriage was legal here, all you had to do was go and file for your marriage license. Then, you’d have your ceremony. It could be in a cathedral with a bishop, it could be in your living room with a justice of the peace, or any variation in between. Then, you sign the paperwork, which is filed with the province, and lo and behold, you’re married.
None of this “this is a civil union, and that is marriage” bullshit. Every couple who gets hitched by someone who is legally authorized to perform those ceremonies, is married. Full stop.
So once gays and lesbians were granted that legal right, the process of marriage didn’t change. If two guys get married in a church with a minister, they’re married. If two ladies get married on a beach with a justice of the peace, they’re married.
I just don’t understand why you folks make it so damned complicated when it doesn’t have to be.
KSMIAMI
McCain is really nuts at this point and I can’t imagine him anywhere near the red button, but Americans seem to elect losers over and over again on faulty logic and phony promises. While I am not giving up, I am resigned to the fact that there are a lot more of them than us and that the next pres will probably be a one termer. Hopefully, our country will survive, but I have my doubts. Lucky for me, I have family on a small Croatian island and have the funds to relocate if things get really bad. So long Suckas.
rawshark
Follow up:
What if a church goes beyond not recognizing or performing gay marriage and actually preaches against it in church? Now they’re violating federal law and lose their exempt status.
Just passing on concerns from religious colleagues. This is what they are hearing at church.
b. hussein canuckistani
Gay marriage is legal in Canada.
No churches are forced to perform gay marriages against their will.