In my opinion Steel Wheels marked the moment when the ‘Stones demoted themselves from legitimately cool to a legacy band on permanent tour. Discuss.
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by Tim F| 139 Comments
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Facebones
When was that tour? 1990? People were calling it “Steel Wheelchairs” back then.
Face
Tim F.’s apparently never heard “Voodoo Lounge”, only one the best of theirs in the past 25 years.
jeffreyw
slaw made for the fried fish dinner later
protip: keep your fingers away from the blade on the mandolin, dummy
Dork
Am I allowed to comment here, even though my name doesn’t start with “Face–“?
Stones were sellouts long ago. But god damn did they make a metric ton of money doing so.
J.W. Hamner
Yeah, being that the Stones were already firmly “Classic Rock” by the time of Steel Wheels… I’m not sure that’s a great turning point.
Personally, I’m a little bit weirded out by the fact that bands I listened to in high school and college are all doing “reunion tours” now (the Pixies, The Jesus Lizard, and Pavement at least). I’m not sure how I feel about it… a friend saw The Jesus Lizard this last weekend and said they hadn’t lost anything… but I dunno.
Steeplejack
A-fuckin’-men. Poster boys for the slogan “Dead at 30, buried at 80” (or whenever).
stinkfut
Facebones is right, they were pretty deep into the downward slope even then.
The stones made the poor decision of having Guns N Roses open for them in LA that tour, and the energy/nastiness of GnR put them to shame.
The last time the stones were cool was ’81, Let’s Spend the Night Together tour. Mick was wearing football pants for some reason.
Brick Oven Bill
Mick Jagger said:
“Obviously, I was having a bit of trouble. I wasn’t in a good relationship. Or I was in too many bad relationships. I had so many girlfriends at that point. None of them seemed to care they weren’t pleasing me very much.”
Mick Jagger is thus a misogynist, and should not only be relegated to ‘Legacy Status’, his voice should be permanently silenced, and his assets seized by the State.
He probably has a lot of money.
cleek
agreed.
ellaesther
Once you’ve played different versions of the same ten songs on more than 5 albums, you are a legacy band. The Stone achieved that status about twenty-gazillion albums ago.
But then, I’m a rock and roll geek who doesn’t like Bob Dylan, either, so, maybe I’m the wrong audience.
@J.W. Hamner: I’m at a similarly weird place, and I had this ephiphany the other day: It’s ok.
I realize that sounds snotty, or underwhelming, but it really was kind of a shocking thought! I mean, I actually am middle-aged, and honestly, in some cultures (hell, in my own family) that is something of an accomplishment. So a lot of the music I like is middle-aged, too! I still listen to new stuff and occasionally find new awesomeness, but hey, the old stuff still stands up, and that’s good. I used to worry that I was losing cultural relevancy (honestly, this was the thing that disturbed me about aging), and just the other day, I discovered that I didn’t care very much anymore. And that that was ok.
Come join me! Our ears will still bleed!
Jebediah
I propose that they ceased being the Rolling Stones post-Brian Jones.
ricky
Pity they didn’t have the patriotism of Glenn Miller to die in the war effort.
At least my PBS station still airs Lawrence Welk. That Keith Richard could learn a thing or to from the stylish fingering of a young Myron Florin.
raff
For me it’s the Some Girls/Miss You period that the Stones jumped the shark. They stopped being trend setters & became trend followers. Not that I’ve ever been a big Stones fan anyway, or “The World’s Most Famous Garage Band” as I call them (or “talentless whores” when I’m feeling less generous).
jeffreyw
dunno, exile on main street in ’72 was the peak album imo, mebbe sticky fingers from ’71
one two seven
I generally don’t go for much Stones after Exile on Main Street, but I have to admit I kind of like “Mixed Emotions” off Steel Wheels.
Morbo
Make sure to tell the Queen, BoB; I’m sure she’ll get right on that.
Nutella
A little OT, since this is literature rahter than music, but it is an open thread: This is Mark Twain in Roughing It describing the coyote to his city audience. See if the behavior described sounds familiar.
LD50
I personally think that process began with Emotional Rescue.
rapido
obviously the correct answer is after mick taylor left the band, or, perhaps, after goat’s head soup and before it’s only rock and roll.
cleek
@raff:
they always followed current trends. they had a blues phase, then a psychedelic phase, then a rock phase, then a country phase, then a different rock phase, then a disco rock phase, then… etc..
what saved them is that they were awesome at it, for a long time.
Some Girls is a great album. their last great one, IMO.
ellaesther
@ellaesther: “The Stone“? Oh lord. Someone still needs more coffee.
The STONES became a legacy band by about album #6, the STONES.
Incertus
The Stones would have remained a great band if someone had shot either Mick Jagger or Keith Richards in 1981 or so.
Brick Oven Bill
It cannot be the Queen, Morbo. The Queen seems to be hot for Alpha males and is the one who Knighted Mick, a man who has fathered seven children by four women. This rivals Barack’s dad.
The confiscation of Mick’s wealth is a job for Gordon Brown, the single world leader who defers to Beta Barack’s ideology. Gordon is thus bordering on Omega. The Queen would sooner shove Barack’s I-Pod with the catalog of his speeches up one of his orifices than confiscate Mick’s wealth.
Shell
Huzzah! Just saw that Little Bitsy won for week 12!
forked tongue
They’d turned into Classic Rock before there was Classic Rock, but coolness is another matter. They stopped being “legitimately cool” shortly after their masterpiece, “Exile on Main Street,” and the tour that supported it. (“Goat’s Head Soup,” anyone? “Black and Blue”?) Then they briefly became cool again with “Some Girls” and Keith’s near-imprisonment on drug charges in Canada. The rest is strictly business, though Keith is still pretty cool.
LD50
Not true. If someone had shot Keith, (a) he would have stayed in the band anyway, or (b) Mick would have soldiered on with some replacement who really sucked. Believe me.
Jay Schiavone
I saw that tour with my mom. Every song they started, she’d exclaim, “I hope they play ‘Jumpin’ Jack Flash’.” Finally they started their encore and she leaned toward me and ask what they were playing. I think you can guess the answer. So, yeah, that was a dreary tour. But then, I was depressed after I saw the “Some Girls” tour. An I liked that album.
licensed to kill time
@jeffreyw:
One of the greatest covers for a Rolling Stones LP – Sticky Fingers. Designed by Andy Warhol, who also did the banana peel cover for The Velvet Underground and Nico. I never listened to the Stones much after the early 70’s. I saw them in the late 60’s and was kind of freaked out by Mick Jagger’s he/she stage persona. Ok, I was young and naive about such things.
EvolutionaryDesign
They’ve always been followers, but they still put out some great, if in essential at times, songs that work within the confines of their style du jour. And ‘Miss You’ is the only reason I can listen to anything disco at all!
EvolutionaryDesign
Ooooooh. Somebody call the burn ward.
reid
Just heard this: Joe Lieberman to vote with Republicans against health care bill if it includes a public option. People used to claim he was just a foreign policy hawk, but still an honest Democrat on domestic issues. If this is true, I guess he’s an all-around nozzle.
Surreal American
@LD50:
I always thought “Emotional Rescue” was the Rolling Stone’s version of the Star Wars Holiday Special.
Not regarded as canonical, but a guilty pleasure for some. Ok, more guilt than pleasure, but you get my drift.
jeffreyw
@licensed to kill time: I had both of those albums, now long gone due to several moves, yard sales and the coming of CDs.
LarryB
@Brick Oven Bill: You should mix it up a little with your desserts:
Kick-ass fudge brownies.
Ingredients:
4 oz good quality bitter-sweet or unsweetened chocolate (I use Trader Joe’s “big red brick” bitter-sweet)
1/2 lb (2 sticks) butter
3/4 tsp salt
4 eggs
2 c sugar
1 tsp vanilla
1 c unsifted flour
(optional) 1 c pecan or walnut meats, coarsely chopped.
Procedure:
Preheat oven to 350d F. Grease and flour a 9×13″ baking pan (glass or metal are ok, but I’m convinced that metal gives a better-textured result). Melt the chocolate and butter together in the top of a double boiler. Cool (can be warm, but not hot). Beat eggs and salt at high speed w. electric mixer until thick and creamy. Add sugar a bit at a time. Add vanilla. Reduce mixer speed to low. Add chocolate. Add flour. Beat just until incorporated. Add nuts. ditto. Pour into pan and bake for 24 (metal pan) to 26 (glass pan) minutes. Doneness is a matter of taste, but I like mine pretty gooey. Serve hot with a fork and softened ice cream or just a glass of milk. Brownies firm up enough to cut when fully cool but never get “cakey” unless you overcook them. Yum!
jeffreyw
Gonna go with french fries instead of baked beans with the fish,
@jeffreyw:
and the red tinge in the slaw is from the carrots-no, really.
jeffreyw
@LarryB: Yum! Recipe thread?
JackieBinAZ
Unless you’re an indie music snob, you’ll probably ask, “Who the hell is Will Sheff?” But the Okkervil River frontman did a wonderfully snarky series called “Tainting the Memory” and has his own opinion on when the Stones stopped being the Stones.
EconWatcher
The “Tattoo You” tour of ’81 (or so) still remains the highlight of my misspent youth. As a 15-year old, I waited outside with buddies for hours in the freezing winter air at the Pontiac Silverdome in Michigan for my general admission seat. The acoustics were horrendous, but Santana was awesome as the opening band, and Mick and Keith did not disappoint.
Some of the most fun I ever had. My body is probably still de-toxifying. It was a looser and freer country back then (but probably more dangerous for kids). I wouldn’t want my daughter to live as we did when she hits her teen years.
jeffreyw
Food pr0n! We need some food pr0n!
Steve Balboni
All I know is I’m pulling for Exile On Main St. this weekend
http://jamtopia.com/blog/phish-festival-8-cover-album-teaser/
bill
“Steel Wheelchairs”. Heh. Still, “Almost Make You Cry” is one of my faves of their Geritol period.
licensed to kill time
@jeffreyw:
I really miss album covers. It was part of the experience of listening to music, reading the liner notes and parsing the art. Cd’s just aren’t the same, IMHO.
For those unfamiliar w/Sticky Fingers cover, it had a photo of a guy’s jeans with an actual working zipper. When you unzipped it the infamous tongue was revealed.
LD50
Still doesn’t top BOB’s mom.
Midnight Marauder
So…a big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot to this gem I just came across:
Scalia On Brown v. Board Of Education: I Would Have Dissented
If I didn’t know any better, I would say that the current evidences strongly points to Scalia being behind BOB. It all makes sense now.
bill
And say what you will, Keith Richard is still the best rhythm guitarist around. No Keith, no Stones.
Nellcote
Keith Richards is teh God.
bago
So wait, we’re talking about a band that was last relevant when I was 2 years old? I’m frickin 30, people.
J to the G
@JackieBinAZ – lol. I actually “knew” Will Sheff when he was the resident IT guy for my graduate program at the University of Texas (which is to say, I saw him around and occasionally interacted with him). He’s come a long, long ways since then… good for him!
Steve Balboni
@Midnight Marauder
that’s funny because when he spoke to us in law school his response was that “A stopped clock is right twice a day.”
licensed to kill time
@licensed to kill time:
I misremember – it unzipped to underwear. But the Tongue first appeared on that cover.
Savage Henry
@JW Hammer
I feel your pain. I keep asking myself when it is time to bury my Replacements albums in the backyard. There comes a time that you just have to stop singing along with “Bastards of Young” at the top of your lungs.
However, if there was a reunion tour would I go? I hope that I never have to face that decision.
jeffreyw
@licensed to kill time: Yeah, loved the Crumb cover the Cheap Thrills album.
bago
@licensed to kill time: CDs? Mp3 players have been around for more than a decade. Get with the program!
Fulcanelli
Yeah, well you’re not the only one, with mixed emotions Tim.
The one time I saw the Stones was on the Steel Wheels tour. Meh. What I would have given to see them in 1969 during the tour that gave us Get Yer Ya-Ya’s Out.
Their relevance as a real rock n’ roll band ended with Some Girls IMO.
Bong Water Bill, you are tedious and such a phucking phony. I don’t know who you think you’re kidding.
mickeydee
Alright. Let’s not get too snarky.
I have no problem with the Stones staying together and being a “legacy band.” Yeah, they’ve released their share of crap in the last twenty years. Dirty Work (1986) and Bridges To Babylon (1997) mostly stunk. Steel Wheels is overrated. But Voodoo Lounge (1994) and A Bigger Bang (2005) are really good if you give them a chance. The concert movie they made with Martin Scorcese — Shine A Light — is lots of fun.
Then there are the lyrics to “Sweet Neocon.”
“You call yourself a Christian / I think that you’re a hypocrite / You say you are a patriot / I think that you’re a crock of shit.
“It’s liberty for all / ’cause democracy’s our style / Unless you are against us / Then it’s prison without trial.
“But one thing is certain / Life is good at Halliburton / If you’re really so astute / You should invest at Brown & Root.
“How come you’re so wrong / My sweet neocon / If you turn out right / I’ll eat my hat tonight.”
Long live the Stones!
GReynoldsCT00
@jeffreyw:
EEEE! I had a mandolin incident once, threw it in the trash after and still can’t stand the sight of one…
LD50
@bago: Does this mean I’m supposed to give up my 78’s?
Tom
To Tim’s original question, I think Voodoo Lounge was really the first record they put out that was merely as a formality of the touring process. I think Steel Wheels was the transition between putting out an album and touring and them putting out an album to tour. When Steel Wheels was released, I think the Stones were still treated somewhat legitimately as a relevant act, but after the release and tour, it was full on Voodoo Lounge mode.
But I think the moment the stones became an “act” was probably back with the release of “It’s Only Rock And Roll.”
anthony
I am 57 years old so I was around when the Stones were “new” and have listened to lots of music.
As far as I am concerned, the following artists will ALWAYS be cool in terms of their impact on contemporary music and culture. I also remember my first time hearing the Sex Pistols’ Never Mind the Ballocks album in the late 1970’s. It was the very last time I honestly thought to myself, my god I have never heard anything like this before.
To my ears, rock and roll since that time has been little more than a rehash of the original musical statements made by these performers.
AC/DC
Beatles
Chuck Berry
James Brown
Bob Dylan
Jimi Hendrix (if he had stayed alive)
Led Zeppelin
Ramones
Rolling Stones
Sex Pistols
U2
Velvet Underground
Every new rock band in the past 30 years has borrowed from the originality of one or more of the performers on the above list.
As far as I am concerned, this is the COOL Hall of Fame. Once you are in, you are in for life, no matter what artistically questionable decisions you may make later in your career.
And if anyone was wondering, the omission of Elvis is definitely intentional. Chuck Berry is the true King of Rock and Roll.
cleek
and that time is when “Lay It Down Clown” starts.
xj - not the auto
Last good album was ‘some girls’. They started downhill after “let it bleed”, although I loved “sticky fingers” back in the day. I never thought much of “exile” – just a lot more of the same. “Some girls” was interesting because of the weird mix of styles, including, for lack of a better term, blues disco (miss you).
jeffreyw
@bago: Heh-get offa my lawn, whippersnapper.
Omnes Omnibus
@Savage Henry:
You lie!
Brick Oven Bill
The Democrats are the ones who just voted for segregating schools, but only for their own children, by cancelling the Washington DC voucher program. The Democrats thus engage in False Rhetoric. The Democrats are the party of Wealth and Birth.
Sun Tzu lived two millennia before Thomas Jefferson penned this remarkable letter to John Adams, defining Artificial Law (Wealth and Birth) and Natural Law (Virtue and Talent).
Some things are timeless. Sun Tzu’s version of Natural Law was ‘Moral Law’. He explains Moral Law:
“The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.”
Sun Tzu in this document also describes The Commander:
“The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.”
Leaders do engage False Rhetoric when dealing with their own people. This is why men, other than Gordon Brown, would only follow Obama out of curiosity. In this manner, Glenn Beck is more powerful than Barack Obama.
Thus, it is up to Gordon Brown, and not the Queen, to bring Mick Jagger to Social Justice.
Splitting Image
Personally, I think the Stones started to decline after Brian Jones left, but as a few other people have said, that is probably partly because of the musical trends of the time that the Stones were following. I just can’t get into Exile on Main Street the same way I get into Let it Bleed or Beggars Banquet.
That said, Steel Wheels was a turning point. I think they really did have a band discussion about what to do next and they more or less decided to become a Stones tribute band. And they had already gone a long way down from Beggars Banquet.
licensed to kill time
@jeffreyw:
Robert Crumb was/is genius. Keep on Truckin’! He has a graphic version of the book of Genesis out now.
@bago:
Yeah, but I’m wandering in nostalgiaville! When you get older, you’ll pine for the days of MP3’s and bitch about the implant in your head that plays music all the time…
Tom
Maybe the most skippable Replacements track prior to Don’t Tell A Soul.
anthony
@bill:
I love Keith. But as far as the best rhythm guitarist around, check out the James Brown tune “Payback”.
Rhythm guitar drives the entire song from start to finish. That anonymous sideman in James Brown’s backup band deserves the award, IMHO.
Omnes Omnibus
Is it just me or is BoB making even less sense than usual?
Napoleon
@reid:
You are slandering nozzles to compare them to Lieberman.
Stefan
The Stones would have remained a great band if someone had shot either Mick Jagger or Keith Richards in 1981 or so.
Though to kill Keith Richards, someone would have to have the foresight to shoot him with silver bullets…..the regular ones just bounce off him.
Colette
Abortion foe urges ‘Burn in Hell’ protest
“A YouTube video of the contest instructions shows how to print a poster of Reid and Pelosi and construct a stand for it. The clip shows a person dousing the Democratic leaders’ images with flammable liquid. The next scene shows their picture going up in flames.”
(headdesk)
(repeat)
jeffreyw
@Midnight Marauder: Not to carry water for that prick, but I saw this while ago at Balkinization:
link
The Other Steve
John Cole might want to read this defense of insider trading.
I think it relates to Peak Wingnut.
licensed to kill time
@Omnes Omnibus:
No. He never makes sense.
@Fulcanelli:
Heh – Bong Water Bill. me likey.
Ash Can
@Midnight Marauder: Is Antonin Scalia showing symptoms of the onset of dementia? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Billy K
Jebediah is correct. But my first thought was, “who effin’ cares?”
abrxas
Agreed.
bemused (formerly ironranger)
@Napoleon:
Nozzles at least have a good practical purpose.
Fulcanelli
@Bong Water Bill: Sun Tzu would have sold you to his enemies as a slave.
bago
@LD50: You can still rock those on the Technic 1200’s when doing a mashup.
Ash Can
@jeffreyw: That’s good to know. And I take back my snarky post (for now, anyway).
@The Other Steve: I’m betting that the horse’s ass who wrote this article either never worked at an actual equities firm, or was fired from at least one of them.
BongCrosby
@Brick Oven Bill:
Glenn Beck has fathered four children by two women.
I guess this means that Beck is either only 58% of the man Mick Jagger is or, perhaps, that Jagger is only half as Virtuous as Beck.
Midnight Marauder
@jeffreyw:
I just read the link and it does seem as thought the original newspaper article may have misquoted Scalia. Still doesn’t take away the fact that he’s a terrible, completely unserious and unprincipled person. Also.
Sam
Well if any of us could parlay long expired coolness into the ability to work a few months every couple of years and gross a half a billion doing something we love, we’d probably fret little over what critics might say.
I’d also say that while I’d mark Tattoo You as their last good album and Exile their last great one (although Some Girls is borderline because in its time it was excellent but hasn’t, imo, stood the test of time as have their earlier classics).
I also don’t think there are even pretenders let alone contenders to the title of World’s Greates Rock ‘n’ Roll Band. In fact, in terms of performance, I’d venture there are very few bands that can put on a show in the same ballpark as what they have recently let alone in their prime.
Roger Moore
@Midnight Marauder:
Shorter Scalia: Justice is only about process, not outcomes.
2th&nayle
@bill: You beat me to it bill. To really appreciate just how much Keith means to the Stones you have to listen to some of his solo music. “Talk is Cheap” is a prime example. Best rhythm guitarist going and all with just 5 strings. Amazing!
BongCrosby
I give the Stones a lot of leeway, since they recorded two of the greatest Country & Western songs ever — “Dead Flowers” and “Faraway Eyes.”
Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Lord.
LD50
@Fulcanelli:
And after a week, they would have wanted their money back.
handy
@Omnes Omnibus:
He’s BJ’s resident Ignatius J. Reilly.
Sam
Bong Crosby:
Or, even more telling, listen to some of Mick’s solo work.
Jager
Since I was fucked up forever by seeing Gene Vincent and the Blue Caps live at a local movie theater at the age of nine, it was only natural for me to become a Stones fan. Some of their old shit still makes me feel like a beer fueled, dope smoked college boy! I still get chills when I hear “Gimme Shelter”, I still want to dance when I hear “Brown Sugar” or “Start me up”… the newer bands can only hope they can create a 40 plus year musical legacy. Yeah, they are old fucks and they ain’t had a hit in years, but its “Only Rock and Roll” and I still like it, god dammit!
cleek
@BongCrosby:
Wild Horses, too.
Svensker
@bago:
Still in diapers, m’dear.
handy
Re: Rolling Stones. I thought it was kind of cheap the way they want after the Verve in the late 90s. Pretty much broke that band up.
Nellcote
@Sam:
Exactly!
mr earl
The Stones haven’t made a great rock n roll album since Exile. Problem is, neither has anybody else. No, Blood On The Tracks is not really a rock n roll album. U2 has come close once, maybe twice, but so far no cigar.
bago
@Svensker: Who? Me or the Stones?
jeffreyw
@Midnight Marauder: agreed on the general dickishness, and feel free to slam the bastard anytime, but I’d hate to see a generally correct argument be sidetracked by an overlooked error in the details
Chuck Butcher
The Stones did what?? They are professional musicians making money, they have been exactly that for a long long time and expecting something different is ludicrous. I like The Rolling Stones, I also don’t expect them to be something they aren’t.
I have heard better musicians that are more inventive that no one has ever heard of, better than almost anybody you’ve heard of – and they aren’t heard of. It is professional entertainment and appeal to enough of an audience plus some luck are what is required. The Stones have had that. Dying poor in the name of “esthetics” may seem admirable, do you want to try it?
I admit my choice of music is the Blues, not too mainstream, but the history of that genre shows you how to starve.
Stannate
The only defense I’d give Steel Wheels is that it was the first Stones album to come out after the group’s near-implosion in the mid-80s. Tattoo You was a really good album, and the most consistent from start to end of anything they produced in the 1980s. Undercover had a great title track, but that was it. Between Undercover and the lamentable Dirty Work, Mick went solo and Keith got jealous; after Dirty Work, both Mick and Keith put out solo albums and were obviously pissed at each other. It appeared that the Stones would finally end with a whimper in, say, 1987, so Steel Wheels was, if anything, a celebration of the going concern that happened to coincide with the peak of the Sixties revival. After Steel Wheels, the Stones–minus Bill Wyman at this point–went fully into automatic mode.
Svensker
@bago:
Whichever one of you is 30. :)
Michael D.
@LD50:
Everyone has topped BoB’s mom.
Will
Don’t be hatin. Steel Wheels was the very first rock concert I ever got to go to. I was twelve.
Paul in KY
‘Some Girls’ was their last great album & it was the least great of their great ones up to that point.
RedKitten
@Michael D.: Heh…nicely done, sir.
drillfork
@Stannate:
Not doubt they lost a lot with Brian Jones, but I still think they had their moments through the 70s, culminating with Tattoo You in ’81. I thought that was a really good album.
I think I saw them on the Steel Wheels tour, just because I had to say I saw them once. But the shark was already in the rear-view mirror at that point…
Bubblegum Tate
@bago:
DJs do blends (and have been doing them for decades now).
Cornball know-nots without DJ skills do “mashups.”
[/soapbox]
Sam
Bringing up the Blues, I think raises the question of why the Blues greats become iconic with age to white middle class folks like, I assume, most of us for doing pretty much exactly what the Stones have done (albeit on a larger and more expensive scale).
Nobody I recall suggested the likes of Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, B.B. King, Buddy Guy, Otis Rush, et al “lost their cool” because they continued performing into relative old age and relied predominantly on playing old tunes with which their audiences were familar.
In blues, Jazz, country, folk, old-line pop like Sinatra or Tony Bennett and every other form of music besides rock and roll no one thinks twice about oldsters performing or criticizes them for not being au courant and playing their famous past again and again.
I suspect that with R’n’R the problem is it reminds us that our own youth is [was] fleeting. “I hope I die before I get old” is just a line in a song
PS
Yeah, Steel Wheels was a bit Stones-by-numbers but I rather enjoy it myself, actually more than Tattoo You. Stripped is excellent, but distinctly autumnal. Now, if Keith were to lock Mick up in a small apartment to practice with his harmonica and his Jimmy Reed and Muddy Waters records, they might yet produce some interesting geezer boogie. Meanwhile, if people want to throw huge amounts of money at them, who can blame them for taking it?
Comrade Darkness
@jeffreyw: haven’t checked the rest of the thread, but you can buy a kevlar glove to help protect your hand.
Jager
Every band working should thank the Stones for turning the economic model of touring on its head. In the 60’s they started making the promoters “bid” to handle their concerts for a flat fee. Before that the promoters paid the bands to play and kept most of the gross receipts for themselves. As one promoter said “Mick Jagger must have gone to the London School of Economics”
Jager
PS
I never tire of “Stripped”, but I’m old, funny though, my kids like it, too. Even the oldest daughter who belongs to a ‘Rave Dance Troupe” what ever the fuck that is!
mickeydee
Alright. Let’s not get too snarky.
I have no problem with the Stones being a “legacy” band or whatever. Sure, they’ve released some junk in the last twenty years. Dirty Work (1986) was a disaster. Bridges To Babylon (1997) was mostly forgettable. Steel Wheels is overrated. But Voodoo Lounge (1994) and A Bigger Bang (2005) are real good if you give them a chance. Their concert film with Martin Scorcese — Shine A Light — is fun.
Then we have the lyrics to “Sweet Neocon.”
“You call youself a Christian / I think you are a hypocrite / You say you are a patriot / I think you are a cock of s##t.
“It’s liberty for all / ’cause democracy’s our style / Unless you are against us / Then it’s prison without trial.
“But one thing that is certain / Life is good at Halliburton / If you’re really so astute / You should invest at Brown & Root.
“How come you’re so wrong / My sweet neocon / If you turn out right / I’ll eat my hat tonight.”
Long live the Stones!
licensed to kill time
@Sam:
I think it’s also because rock and roll is identified with youth in a way that (timeless) blues and jazz/country/folk etc is not. Old dudes still trying to rock it like they did in their 20’s is vaguely embarrassing in a way that doesn’t compare to those other genres. IMHO.
WereBear
We have a mixed marriage: I’m Beatles, he’s Stones. But we make it work…
Very few artists can remain seminal and inventive for the entire arc of their career. Heck, few artists even get an entire arc of their career.
Tony Alva
Stones? Greatest. Band. Ever.
Post Tattoo records are hit and miss, but Voodoo and the last one are VERY good. Thru and Thru (Keith singing) is one of the best tunes they ever recorded. In reality, the best post Tattoo records are titled under “Keith Richards and the Expensive WInos”. Get all of them. You won’t be disappointed.
Sam
My question (to which I suggest an answer) is WHY should it be embarrassing for old people to play rock and roll or to watch them play.
Who says Rock and Roll in the 21st Century is identified with youth? There weren’t old rockers (actually Bill Haley wasn’t a kid) 40-50 years ago only because the style was still new (at least to the white middle class).
Now, if you’re 45 and hanging out in college town bars grooving to bands and dazzling the youngsters with how up to date you are, you might have cause to be embarrassed or for people to be embarrassed for you.
PS
It’s been downhill since the first album. (Honest, my fave.) But what a lovely long ride … How long can Charlie keep it up? Never forget Charlie. Charlie rules.
Sam
I love the first album too, but one might argue that was actually much less “authentic” than the Stones now playing their old catalogue.
“Route 66” (Bobby Troup) – 2:20
“I Just Want to Make Love to You” (Willie Dixon) – 2:17
“Honest I Do” (Jimmy Reed) – 2:09
“Mona (I Need You Baby)” (Ellas McDaniel) – 3:33
“Now I’ve Got a Witness (Like Uncle Phil and Uncle Gene)” (Nanker Phelge) – 2:29
“Little by Little” (Nanker Phelge/Phil Spector) – 2:39
Side two
“I’m a King Bee” (James Moore) – 2:35
“Carol” (Chuck Berry) – 2:33
“Tell Me (You’re Coming Back)” (Mick Jagger/Keith Richards) – 4:05
“Can I Get a Witness” (Brian Holland/Lamont Dozier/Eddie Holland) – 2:55
“You Can Make It If You Try” (Ted Jarrett) – 2:01
“Walking the Dog” (Rufus Thomas) – 3:10
That’s mostly some English kids playing covers of songs by older black people they learned off of records. Why would that be cool but a performance of Gimme Shelter now be “uncool?”
BongCrosby
@mickeydee:
I’m really, really, really dating myself here, but every one of those examples could easily have “Burma Shave” after them.
Okay, maybe not the first, but certainly the others.
Mr. Furious
The last good Stones album is Richards’ first solo album “Talk is Cheap.”
It became crystal clear to me at that time—with Jagger pushing his garbage solo project—who the more talented Glimmer Twin was.
I had some good iPod time last week on a business flight, and the shuffle brought up two of those “Talk is Cheap” tracks, and they still hold up.
I also caught “Sister Morphine.” Which I consider one of the ten greatest songs of all time.
Elizabelle
Another fan of “Talk is Cheap”.
You Don’t Move Me Anymore. A favorite track.
2th&nayle
@Elizabelle: Struggle and Rockawhile are my personal favorites but the whole album just kills.
PS
@Sam: The thing about covers is partly that the band is saying “Isn’t this great?” and somehow when you’re doing that to your own material it comes over differently. The Stones manage it on Ya-Ya’s & Stripped but not really on, cough, Flashpoint, No Security, Live Licks, Shine a Light (or Still Life or most of Love You Live) … though actually they all have their moments. Also, they did Jimmy Reed even better than Jimmy Reed did, and I do like Jimmy Reed. And don’t tell Chuck, but they did Berry good too.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Have to agree, but they get an A for persistence. If I ignore everything they’ve done since then they’re one of my favorite bands.
And if the first few chords of Brown Sugar don’t get you on your feet, call a funeral home. ‘Cos you dead.
@Jay Schiavone: Thank God, I wasn’t the only one.
And Living Colour opened.
Mr Furious
One of the tunes the other day was my favorite: “It Means A Lot.” Back when you actually listened to an album all the way through, I thought that song was a perfect finale.
Mr Furious
One of the tunes the other day was my favorite: “It Means A Lot.” Back when you actually listened to an album all the way through, I thought that song was a perfect finale.
angler
re: Stone opening with G&R in 91. Saw the show at the Coliseum and beg to differ with Stinkfut (but not with their blog pseudonym).
While not intentional (I think) the much hyped but poor delivery of G&R highlighted the Stones’ talent. G&R was in the middle of one of many meltdowns, perhaps the heroin crisis that many years later made a reality TV star of their drummer, Steven Adler. The first, true opening act, was Living Colour, a black rock band that took issue with Axel Rose’s racist/homophobe remarks from the stage the prior evening.
While performing nostalgia even at that point, the Stones still put on an incredible show. The problem was the albums had turned into souvenir t-shirts.
drkrick
Old dudes still trying to rock it like they did in their 20’s is vaguely embarrassing in a way that doesn’t compare to those other genres. IMHO.
Have you seen the pictures of the Mott the Hoople reunion earlier this month? They sounded great, but guys closing in on 70 striking the old glam-rock poses is a bit … odd. As is the note that they had to borrow the Pretenders’ drummer for all but a tune or two because Buffin has Alzheimer’s.
At least they left the platform boots at home for the sake of their hips.
Steeplejack
@Sam:
Rock and roll, more than any other musical genre, is about the projection of a fantasy of the performer–the “rock star”–as larger-than-life fantasy figure. He’s a rebel—and he gets away with it! He tells society to suck it, and he lives life on his own terms. All the chicks love him! All the guys want to be just like him!
He may not drink beer often, but when he does he prefers Dos Equis.Etc., etc. Meanwhile the blues guy Blind Lemon Pledge is singing about how his girlfriend turned out to be a two-timin’ skank or the time the sheriff of Dickweed County gave him a beatdown. Keepin’ it real.That rock star persona is hard to maintain for 30-odd years, or even 10 years. Reality starts to set in, and too much contradictory evidence piles up. You’re not a rebel, because you’re a corporation now and you’re riding around in a private jet. Or you completely flamed out and you’re on your third comeback attempt. And you’re not a sex god who’s going to rock anyone all night long, because you’re all old and wrinkly now, and both two ex-wives said you’re horrible in bed in their tell-all memoirs. Etc. etc.
licensed to kill time pretty much nailed it:
Yeah, because Blind Lemon Pledge still singing about how the sheriff of Dickweed County gave him a beatdown is still all too real and (sadly) all too au courant.
Brachiator
@Sam:
Here’s an article from the LA Times about Roger Daltrey performing….
From “hope I die before I get old” to “Live long, and prosper.”
I had the great pleasure to see the Expensive Winos tour when they were in Los Angeles. Great music, great to see Keith play the guitar relatively up close and personal. And, as Chuck Butcher noted, great to see professional musicians effortlessly do their thing.
Nellcote
Recommending a video of Mick, Keith, Ronnie and Ian Stewart(!) playing with Muddy Waters at his Chicago Club, the Checkerboard Lounge, in 1981.
polyorchnid octopunch
I’m a pro musician as well. This particular complaint is bs. The real truth is that they stopped making records because they realised there’s no money in it anymore… all the money’s to be made by putting butts in seats and selling them stuff. So, that’s what they did.
The guy that organised the Steel Wheels tour is from Toronto, and he’s credited as being the guy that saved the Stones, and he did it by proving to them that the money was no longer in records but in performing, because the artist actually gets to control what happens in the concert hall as opposed to what happens to a record.
Record company greed and record company incompetence in the face of new technologies has a lot more to do with why they stopped making records than any lack of creativity on their parts.
As for the ‘geezer rocker’ complaint… I’m 45, I play rock and roll (along with blues, country, folk, jazz, etc etc… I play what I’m paid to play and sometimes (heck a lot of the time) that’s rock) and I can still rock harder than most of the kids around here doing the same thing… and I can do a better job on the guitar than most of them too. If you think I’m too old for that, you can GFY.
These kids today, I tell ya.
Sam
Well, everyone has to speak for himself as to what something “is about,” but to me music, even rock ‘n’ roll is at bottom about the music and not about the poses and images. an act might break through and garner attention initially because of clever marketing but sustained success requires delivering the goods.
The Stones can sustain success because even relying on golden oldies they are both a great performing band and the sheer quantity of good songs they have from the back catalogue.
I think that songwriting more than the ability “to rock” is the main thing that might decline with age. I think that is as much a function of reception by the audience as it is anything else. It’s probably a bit easier to address a young man’s outlook and desires (sex and wild times) within the confines a of a rock song than it is to write songs relevant to the more complicated existence of the middle aged. I also think that as people age the likelihood of being overwhelmed by a song lessens quite a bit. The first time you hear something at 15 is a different experience than hearing something for the first time at 45. Analytically, the songs might be very similar in quality (or you could imagine it being the same performance of the same song discovered at a different age) but the emotional impact is going to be very different.
Of all the really big acts from the past maybe the only ones that have managed to “mature” lyrically as songwriters within the rock idiom are Bob Dylanand Neil Young and both of them have not only had their fallow periods but also use their old stuff as the base for their concert performances.
Death Panel Truck
@Sam:
So Bobby Troup is black – who da thunk it? So who was the gray-haired white guy who played Dr. Early?
LD50
@Michael D.: You win the thread.
Sam
Deathtruck:
First, I’d direct you to the definition of “mostly.” Second, I’d inform you that the Stones didn’t base their version on the much older black guy Nat King Cole’s version but the somehat older older black guy Chuck Berry’s version.
Andrew
The Stones last great album was A Bigger Bang. It’s only rock ‘n’ roll remember, and if the Stones are still able to upset the over 25s then I hope they keep on rocking.