I’ve decided on the Magnepan 1.7’s and a Sunfire Trusub with a 10″
All that is left is the amps. What do you all think? I’ve been saving for this for five years, and it is time to retire the 20 year old adcom.
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kdaug
I’m thinking the Siemens Pure 701 BTE RIC Hearing Aid is more your style.
mr. whipple
I wouldn’t overlook processing multi-channel sound.
Stuck in the Funhouse
Dumbest wingnut meme of the day.
On Obama speaking out in favor of the mosque near 9-11 attack in NYC.
You heard it here first., well , second.
soonergrunt
@john cole;
Make it happen, stereo boy!
You were one of those guys had the huge stereo that took up its own wall locker in his barracks room, and had the Platoon Sergeant put a piece of tape on the ‘3’ on the volume knob so the battalion staff duty wouldn’t call CQ bitching about the noise, weren’t you?
Origuy
Some sad news, Richie Hayward, co-founder of Little Feat, died of liver cancer.
Violet
Boombox isn’t good enough for ya?
mr. whipple
@Origuy:
Jeebus fuck. A great, great drummer. I didn’t know he was sick. Needed a liver that never came. Damn.
Dixon
Was that a Eric B & Rakim reference in the thread title?
Freemark
Try B&K; well priced for separates and made in the US. Plus sounds great and looks beautiful in the polished aluminum finish.
Was considering selling mine to help with my ‘going back to school at 42’ expenses but really don’t want to give up my 7×200 amp and go back to a receiver.
I hold the Microphone like a grudge...
…B hold the record so the needle don’t budge.
Sentient Puddle
I’m drunk. Is this referring to surround sound setups? If so, I should bookmark this.
Ross Hershberger
Maggies are current hungry, so forget tube amps. I’ve serviced plenty of older Adcoms that perform just fine, and it is a good match in terms of specs. Don’t expect a lot of dynamics out of planar speakers no matter what you drive them with. They’ll catch fire before they give you the jump factor of horns. But they do interesting things in the midrange. The sub should restore some of the slam.
Decent solid state amps are coming down in price. Can you solder?
Lumpy
Conservative blogger and white supremacist Hal Turner found guilty of threatening Federal judges.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/13/hal-turner-guilty-blogger_n_681881.html
LOLLERS
Mondo Gentleman
@Dixon:
I hope so.
Jebediah
I think that yes, you should get some amplification.
Dan
McIntosh?
Ross Hershberger
Mac solid state maybe but the tube units will fall on their faces against that low a load. If the present Adcom has sufficient power, have it serviced & spend the extra budget on music instead of amps. If it’s underpowered for the maggies, a newer Adcom is a good choice. If they were here I’d be running them with a Son of Ampzilla, but that’s me being weird.
Chris Pall
You should just take my Cerwin Vega RE30’s from 1995. They are hellaciously loud, and while older they have held together really well. They are 4 ohm speakers though, so you’d need to have a good amp.
burnspbesq
What’s the budget, and do you want separates or an integrated?
Tough to beat NAD on value-per-dollar. Audio Advisor has the 150wpc integrated for $1,299.
Doug W
Did you select a mid-range speaker?
JGabriel
I’m going with the Jutnab Xocsos 4.32’s and the Oplek-Z Cordinwoods with an 8″.
.
srv
WTF, an audiophile? MG’s are fine. NAD’s are great performers for the price, but they tend to burn out after a few years.
Whatever you find, consider browsing audiogon.com for used gear. Save a lot of dough.
What’s your source? MG’s are going to need a lot of power.
BobbyK
Listened to a McIntosh amp a few years back, best sound I had ever heard. The separation in the instruments was fantastic, of course the amp itself was $3500, and that wasn’t including the preamp.
trollhattan
Have a Plinius for the two-channel rig. Pure, liquid musical pleasure I can’t recommend enough. Not easy to find, though.
srv
NAD
B&K
Bryston
Balanced Audio “BAT”
McIntosh
Pass Labs
Amps known for power. Rough price order, from cheap.
Remember, these will probably be the last speakers and amp you will ever buy, so don’t rush the amp decision. If you’re vinyl, god help you, a proper tone arm is $1K now.
If you’re going to go computer audio, Naim is introducing a “cheap” ($2K) USB DAC soon, or check out Wavelength Audio, they have a gook $1K box.
srv
@trollhattan: Plinius weigh 1 lb per watt, but they’re awesome.
Tunch may want to sleep on it.
roshan
A good take on the role of government in the black community.
IronyAbounds
But will they work with an amp that goes to 11?
burnspbesq
@srv:
Haven’t heard it yet, but Arcam just introduced an asynchronous USB DAC for $499.
Definitely add the Ayre QB-P to your must-listen list if you are shopping for a USB DAC. Ayre licensed Wavelength’s code for asynchronous USB, and the results are amazing. A bargain at $2,500.
pablo
I had Magnapans back in the mid ’70’s, My cats loved them as a scratching post, so I built a grill on them to protect them. Drove them with a pair of Dynaco 60 tube amps (underpowered but sweet!), then switched to a Dynaco 400 (Handy with a soldering gun).
Eventually blew one out, and Magnapan said it couldn’t be repaired, offered me a 25% discount (in 1988 percentages?)
Since I developed tinnitus, I decided to pass. But while I could hear them THEY WERE MAGNIFICENT! I suggest something in a tube type.
Great choice!
mongo
@17: Ditto that emotion, but why not go for a full Ampzilla? I’ve had one for 20 years now and it’s still making me smile.
John, since something from Great American Sound might be a wee bit hard to find in the wild these days, you might consider another rock solid investment — a Bryston 2B or 3B. Hard to argue with a 25 year full (and fully transferable!) warranty and their pedigree. :-)
My $0.02,
mongo
mclaren
Amplifiers have not advanced technologically in 25 years. Adcom is a decent brand. Stick with it.
Audio technology hit the wall with the CD format when the CD players started using digital output filters and massive oversampling, around the late 1980s (64x oversampling was the point where they got so good you can’t hear a difference) modern power amps hit the wall when the THD got under about 0.05%. No audible improvement was possible after about 1985-1990 or so. Despite the claims of wacked-out audiophiles touting the alleged magic of green markers, all post-1990 CD players and all post-1980 or post-1985 solid state power amps sound basically the same.
Stereo Review test to determine whether listeners could hear a difference between amplifiers.
Speakers, that’s a different story, each speaker design sounds different. It’s a personal preference. But the electronic components make no difference today.
Source: Infamous Spanish A-B-X test from 2006.
No discernible difference in sound twixt different brands of CD player. I own 4, got the first one in 1990 and got a bunch of others as each new alleged improvement in the D/A converters and the various oversampling and noise-shaping digital filters came out, thought the newer model CD players might sound better than the older ones. Nope, no audible difference.
The Journal of the Audio Engineering Society did a blind listening test twixt CD and SACD in their September 2007 issue. The results? (They don’t have a direct link on the web, you have to subscribe.)
Nonsensical hype abounds among audiophiles. For example, after hearing that a certain type of gaming console was supposedly a world-class CD player, went out and bought a used one in a thrift shop. Total waste of five bucks. Sounded no different from any other CD player.
Modern audio amps and CD players (post-1990) are so good it’s a total waste of money to get something new. Headphones and speakers, that’s a different story…each one has its own distinctive “sound,” so it differs with each person according to taste. But amps and CD players are today essentially transparent. Anyone who claims otherwise is trying to scam you.
Gobs of audiophile myths tested and debunked here.
Wilson Heath
Report back how that works out — I’m thinking of getting the MMG’s.
For Maggies, you need an amp that can push 4 ohms without breaking a sweat. They aren’t the speakers for your direct-heated single-ended triode amps. A good indicator is that the rated wattage at 4 ohms is 150% or better that at 8 ohm. Wattage is a tougher call — depends on the user and the room.
Adcom doesn’t have much glory, but they tend to be well designed and nearly bullet proof and are reputedly good for Maggies. If nothing else, work the Adcom as a stopgap until you have a better idea if you need more power. A guy named Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades in So. Cal. who does mods for recording studio electronics swears that his mildly modded Adcoms sound better then Brystons and no worse than much more expensive Pass Labs amps. His politics are Teajadist, though, if that factors into whether you send the work to him.
burnspbesq
@mclaren:
In this as in everything else, you’re an idiot.
There are clearly audible differences between tube and solid state amplifiers. There are clearly audible defferences between solid state amplifiers of differing circuit topologies. There are clearly audible differences in the same tube amplifier when different tubes are used.
There are clearly audible differences between CDs, SACDs, and vinyl.
There are clearly audible differences when an external DAC is connected to the source by USB, S/PDIF, or optical.
There are clearly audible differences between adaptive and asynchronous DACs.
Most importantly, everyone hears differently.
Trust your ears, John. Buy what sounds best to you, and ignore everything else.
mclaren
@burnspbesq:
As usual, you’re telling ignorant lies. This time I don’t even have to bother to debunk you. Everyone can simply read the documented double blind tests and verify that you’re lying.
mr. whipple
Forgot to add that if you are still open on the sub to consider an SVS.
mr. whipple
@mclaren:
You might find this interesting. (pdf)
russell
I’d vote for a nice class A tube amp and some old Klipsch horns. But I listen to a lot of acoustic music, that might not float your boat.
Ross Hershberger
@mongo:
I’ve owned 7 Ampzillas, all purchased blown up, and still have 3 to repair. The Darlington (seriesed) output transistors don’t like high current. The full output current flows through all 4 transistors and they’re at the limit of their current rating at 4 ohms. The Son, on the other hand, has paralleled MJ15024/3 output transistors with 1/2 of the current through each device. The Ampzilla is overmatched into a 4 Ohm load at high power, but the Son will put out 175WPC into 4 Ohms, 250W into 2 Ohms and bridged into 4 Ohms, half a kilowatt.
That’s my kind of amp. Having owned 6 of those as well, I think the Son sounds better.
Ross Hershberger
Regarding the unnamed gaming console used as a CD player, that’s the first gen Playstation. Model SHCP-1001 only (with RCA jacks on the back for audio out). It sounds OK stock, but if you remove the muting transistors from the output and direct-wire the DAC pins to the jacks it sounds pretty amazing. I collected a stack of them to use and lend out. Not super dynamic sounding but very smooth highs and good detail. It’s way better sounding than an iPod or a portable CD player, and the Playstation II DVD IR remote works in it as a CD remote. Cheap and good sounding.
Perry Como
Wait, how did I miss that you were buying a new system? For amps, I would highly recommend Emotiva. Their pre/pros and amplifiers are top notch and they are extremely well priced. I have the UPA-7 driving 6′ towers (Bohlender Graebener RD75s) and it performs flawlessy. I’ve probably thrown a half dozen sets of speakers against this amp and it hasn’t flinched. 7×125 for $699 is a steal and they don’t overrate their gear in the listed specs.
Perry Como
@burnspbesq: If the amplifier matters, you can win an easy $10,000.
wrb
the only sub for a deadhead:
http://www.meyersound.com/products/studioseries/x-800/
around $4k though
ChrisJ
I’ve got MG-12s that I love and I drive them with a BelCanto S300 which I’m also very fond of. It’s a high-end digital amp that sounds great, uses very low idle power and runs nearly stone cold at all times.
@Wilson Heath: The MMGs are nice but have NO bottom end… I started with those and quickly moved them to surrounds and got the MG-12s. I recommend this.
Ross Hershberger
On double blind testing: obviously, creating a test where no difference is found is not the same as proving that no difference exists. It’s logically impossible to prove that two complex analog systems are equivalent under all conditions.
I use single ended tube amps, push-pull tube amps, vintage solid state and modern MOSFET amps according to whatever I feel like, constrained only by the performance limitations of each. No 5 watt 300Bs on Apogees, for instance.
I have a lot of respect for Adcom’s engineering after owning and working on several. They’re not fancy but they’re rugged and have good performance. Spend more if you feel like you need to, but Adcom won’t let your ears down.
David VanHooser
I’ve had Magneplanar MMGs for 11 years now & really enjoy them.My 200wpc Rotel power amp developed a
hum & i’ve been using the 50wpc power section of a NAD
integrated with my Anthem preamp (tubed)-sounds good,
but more wpc would be better.
heydave
I’ll stick with my McIntosh tube am and preamp and Cerwin-Vega speakers. Now get off my lawn!
Ross Hershberger
Gene Czerwinsky of Cerwin-Vega died this week. Turn down your bass controls for 60 seconds and observe a moment of silence below 100 hz for this pioneer of low end.
Larry R
You do want power to drive the Maggies. Don’t get a MacIntosh if you want to hear what’s on the recording, do get one if you like your music steeped in a warm golden glow that muddles the detail.
And +1 for Audiogon — definitely consider buying used, you should only pay 60% of retail. You could save a lot by getting a pair of 1.6s used.
I would make sure through careful listening that the sub integrates smoothly with the Maggies — you might very well hear the transition.
If you’re interested, I have an Audio Research VT100 MKII tube amplifer (read up on it) sitting in a box from one of my past systems. It’s legendary.
My main system:
Avantgarde Duo horns
Art Audio PX-25 tube amplifier w/volume control (7 wpc)
Audio Aero Capitole tube CD player
EAR tube phono preamp
VPI ?? table
I forget what cartridge.
lots of vinyl
sven
@Perry Como: I second this; Emotiva makes great stuff and the XPA-2 might be a good match for the Maggies.
Outlaw Audio also makes a great Monoblock amp for $350 each; two would make a great core for a listening room. If you didn’t like them, Outlaw has a 30-day no-questions-asked full return policy (they even pay return shipping!).
(A similar comment was eated by wordpress; please disregard if I’m repeating myself)
Evolved Deep Southerner
@mongo: I know the Web is a big, big place, but this wouldn’t happen to be the Mongo who used to run a little local message board up in the foothills of the Northeast Georgia mountains, by chance?
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
I hate to say this, but, mclaren is right on this one. Yes, all of those things are “different” in many ways, but, int the only trait that matters in audio, sound, there are not discernable differences. Try as you might, on an identical setup, the human ear cannot discern a 44.1kHz, 16 bit CD from a 2.8MHz, 24 bit SACD. Of course, companies with products to sell, will tell you differently. But, the Nyquist Sampling theorem disagrees.
@Ross Hershberger:
That is not what is being tested. What was being tested was were people able to reliably discern a difference in sound with amplifiers played at the same sound level, though the same speakers and from the same sources. And the answer was no, people were not able to reliably discern, over several different evaluation periods.
Mostly what the test showed is that most “audiophiles”, for all of their knowledge of sound waves and frequency response, the wave part of physics, are ignorant as to electrical part of physics. And manufacturers play to this.
There are differences in amplifiers that warrant differences in prices, but, “sound” is not one of them. Reliability, build quality, warranty, thermal management, yes. From an electronic perspective, either an amplifier reproduces the input signal, at a higher amplitude, with an acceptable amount of distortion (usually less than 0.05% THD), or it does not. Any amplifier that would produce a different “sound” relative to the input signal, is “coloring” the input signal and therefore should be avoided.
With modern technologies, the item in an audio setup that most affects “sound” is the speakers. This is, of course, speaking just of actual components, not taking into account speaker placement, room acoustics, listening position, etc.
RareSanity
Also, I just wanted to add that those Magnepan 1.7s are absolutely gorgeous and equally impressive in their performance.
Great choice.
Just keep the critters away from them. They would be extraordinarily expensive scratching posts.
The Tim Channel
@mclaren:
Couldn’t agree more. I had to abandon all my 110v gear when I moved to Europe last year. I was running three separate power amps, the oldest of which was an SAE202. The only thing I have replaced in the last twenty years were speakers. My Cerwin Vega surrounds finally rotted out.
I had so much gear accumulated over the years (I was in audio retail for a decade) that I actually committed some of it to my outdoor theater:
http://backyardtheater.com/forums/index.php?topic=3272.msg27651#msg27651
Since I am forced to start over in audio, I will buy a nice receiver with decent video switching and surround processing, a matched set of surround speakers and a decent sub. I expect to spend less than 1000 Euro.
Enjoy.
mr. whipple
@The Tim Channel:
Awesome x 10!
burnspbesq
@RareSanity:
Sez you. I’ve been a musician for almost 50 years, I know what instruments are supposed to sound like, and I can absolutely hear the absence of higher-order overtones from recordings sampled at 44.1.
The logic is inescapable. Everything starts out as an analog waveform. Any digital recreation of that analog waveform, regardless of the sample rate and bit depth, by definition loses information that was in the original analog waveform. At higher sample rates, and at greater bit depths, less information is lost. How is that not obvious?
You and McLaren are on the wrong side of this argument. Just admit it and move on.
burnspbesq
@RareSanity:
If you sincerely believe this, then there is no conversation to be had. From the dawn of recorded music to the end of time, the component that has the biggest impact on sound quality is the source. Errors that are introduced at the source cannot be corrected. Information that is lost at the source cannot be successfully recreated through interpolation.
Speakers are important. Sources are outcome-determinative. If you start with shit, you invariably end up with shit.
Joe Max
@wrb:
In fact, I’d recommend the Meyer HD-1 Monitor speakers for anyone who wants great sounding, damn-near bulletproof home speakers (assuming price is no object.) I have seen with my own eyes a Meyer UP-J speaker topple of from a 6-ft high tripod stand and hit the deck so hard it put a dent in the wood, and still work perfectly. (Except there was a hairline crack in the box, so it went back for repair – of the box.)
I know people who have had Meyer speakers for 20+ years that still work flawlessly. (The X-10s are a bit large, but if you have the room…) I use the concert stage version of the X-800 sub, the S600-P, in our concert hall’s M2D array system. One of those in an average residential living room should be able to crack the concrete foundation and induce involuntary diarrhea.
One of the nice things about Meyer’s approach to speakers is the built-in power amps. No need to buy an amp, they’re inside the speaker box! Which means the amp is perfectly matched to the speaker drivers, and the pre-amp circuits monitor the driver load and make adjustments in real time. Meyer engineers are obsessed with eliminating phase-distortion, which is far more audible than the difference between 0.05 THD and 0.01 THD.
It’s almost impossible to damage a driver with distortion from the source – the amp will go into automatic shutdown long before the drivers can be damaged. So you can drive the system at teeth-shattering, eyeball exploding volume without a worry.
We are, of course, talking about a 5-figure sound system, but that includes the power amps, and it’ll still sound golden 20 years from now.
sven
@burnspbesq: The implication that there cannot exist a sufficiently high sampling rate to exceed the limits of human senses is ridiculous. (The human sensory system is digital, not analog after all!). The question is whether a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz is sufficiently high to reproduce sound without discernable error. This is an entirely empirical question and there is no reason it shouldn’t be tractable by bog-standard methods of scientific testing.
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
Nope, we’re not. I play keyboard and bass, so let’s not pull the “you don’t know how it’s supposed to sound”, game.
Any difference that you are claiming to hear is purely psychosomatic.
While higher sampling rates and bit depth DO increase the reproduction of a signal, after a point, the human ear cannot discern the differences. The difference is only detectable by oscilloscope and a really good one at that.
I’m not telling you that you have to believe me, research it. Your ears can lie to you, physics doesn’t.
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
All I am saying is that there will be no discernable difference between the signal produced by modern CD players.
Believe what you want. There’s a whole industry that is ecstatic that you, and many others with disposable income, cling tightly to these “perception” based ideas.
Remember in the 90s when every “serious” audio person swore up and down that Monster Cables increased the sound quality of their stereo dramatically? Now, we know, that it’s all marketing bullshit. What if the “common knowledge” ideas you subscribe to are also marketing bullshit?
Monster Cable, even today, makes the ludicrous claim that its HDMI and optical digital cables deliver a better signal than the cheap alternatives.
Maybe by dismissing previous statements, you are just buying metaphorical Monster Cables.
Perry Como
@sven: The XPA-2 is a really nice piece of hardware. I’ve had the UPA-7 since it was released — running open baffle line arrays that are actively crossed overs and a pair of surrounds — and it has been rock solid.
johnb
Try http://www.musicdirect.com. They have lots of amps and usually demo equipment if you don’t want to pay full price. 30 day guarantee.
John Ferguson
John–check your e-mail. I have a used Sunfire sub for you, if you’re interested.
John Ferguson
I agree with Mclaren: Speakers make a profound difference, amps not so much. Spend 75% of your budget on the speakers, 25% on the amps. Just be sure they have enough power to drive your speakers appropriately.
burnspbesq
@RareSanity:
I don’t listen with physics, I listen with my ears. What they tell me is the only thing that’s relevant.
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
I understand you really believe what you are saying. All I am offering to you is information. You can google search “audio myths” and get some of the same answers I’m giving. As a degreed Electrical Engineer, whom has studied digital signals, digital signal processing and has written DSP algorithms for digital cellular phones. This is just one of those subjects I feel I am uniquely qualified to speak about, they don’t come around much on this site, for my areas of expertise.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
Just in case you come back one more time, something just hit me.
How funny is it that members of the two most argumentative professions in the the world, engineers and lawyers, end up arguing in a day old thread?
*laffs*
trollhattan
@Larry R:
Your system might not be God, but it surely is Godlike. Don’t get caught worshiping it, I understand that’s considered a no-no in religious circles.
This thread sure got legs. I can’t believe anybody still pays attention to minuscule THD specs.
Perry Como
@burnspbesq: Praise Jebus.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@mclaren:
Hm.
The fact that a lot of people can’t hear something doesn’t mean that some people don’t hear it. I can hear things other people don’t hear. I won’t bore you with the details, but just as an example, I used to be able to identify around 100 different makes and models of airplanes and aircraft engines by sound alone. I can hear the difference between Northern and Southern Chicago in an accent. Along the IL-WI border you can hear a difference in accent from one side of the border to the other. There are things to be heard out there that most people don’t hear, but some can. There are audible differences in the accents of the boroughs of New York City. For that matter, in the neighborhoods within the boroughs.
So the audiophile stuff … meh. All it proves is that people hear different things, and hear things differently. No big whoop. Shit, there are differences between the way my right eye sees color and the way my left eye sees color. Everything matters. Just not to all people, to equal degree.
Just because you have a tin ear doesn’t mean everyone does.
And of course, don’t forget, if you don’t agree, then fuck you.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@burnspbesq:
I hear ya. Heh. See my post at 66.
For people who think that sounds are just sounds, I give you Synesthesia(tm). I’m a synesthete on the Cytowic mailing list.
I can tell voices — or saxophonists — apart just by the way the sounds look.
RareSanity
@DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective:
You understand that you are talking about something totally different then what was being argued, right?
The argument was not that the same sound can be perceived differently, by different people.
The argument was that modern amplifiers don’t differ in “sound”, and if they do, then one is adding color to the input. Also, that for most modern CD players, if I capture their output, from the same piece of music, on an oscilloscope, the signals will be exactly the same. burnspbesq thinks that there will be a difference, I do not.
Neither one of those things relate to your “super ears”.
Thanks for playing, try again.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@RareSanity:
You are full of shit. Just for starters, the set called “most modern CD players” has a range of loudspeakers that spans everything from A to Z and from the beginning to the end of a few dozen other alphabets too. Unless you are looking at the signals, and not the sound, coming from these players, you are not even in the ballpark in your comment.
“Most modern cd players” is a set that includes every manner of equipment from the worst junk to some seriously elegant hardware. So WTF?
As for the amplifiers, all I can say is, if you are not seeing differences between amplifiers then you are not looking at the correct parameters, or enough parameters. Period. Amplifiers come with response and equilization curves that differ widely. So WTF are you talking about?
Ross Hershberger
Jebus hopping Christ on a pogo stick, people. This has been hashed over for decades & has gotten nowhere. You’re beating the commemorative plaque that says a horse once died here.
Go listen to music and be happy.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@RareSanity:
So, the folks selling this are just snake oil salesmen?
RareSanity
@DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective:
What the hell are you talking about? What does the output signal of a CD player have to do with loudspeakers?
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Have you even read this thread?
If you buy an amplifier that adds equalization, or has a perceivable tonal impact, you’re an idiot. We’re not talking about receivers, we’re talking about dedicated amplifiers. Dedicated amplifiers DO NOT have equalization curves. The entire purpose of an amplifier is to take an input signal and amplify it WITHOUT altering it in any way.
You don’t even know the basic, fundamental functions of audio components. [B]urnspbesq and I, were able to have an intelligent debate about differing perspectives. You, however, are an idiot that jumped into an thread, late, and just decided to say some shit.
Why don’t you stick to identifying jet engines, or synthesizers or whatever the hell your “superpower” is.
RareSanity
@DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective:
That’s not an amplifier dickhead!
ETA: Or does it have anything to do with the output of a CD player.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@RareSanity:
I know what it is asshole, and I know that you are talking apples and oranges here.
You are making a technical argument that a perfectly reproduced signal — which I take to be, in this context, amplified with acceptably low distortion and added noise — is just perfect, and if the equipment produces this perfect output then no differences can be heard between such perfect examples of equipment.
However, the people you are arguing with are not having the same argument you are. They are telling you that they and their ears are parts of systems, which includes the source(s), the amplifier(s), the speaker(s), and the environment in which the speakers and their own ears are operating, and producing an auditory effect that can and will have perceptible differences between configurations.
To suggest that all amplifiers are doing the same thing is absurd unless you are suggesting that all listening is being done using the same speakers and in the same room, from the same listening position, and that all speaker systems are going to respond to all amplifiers’ outputs in the same way. You are apparently designing an experiment in which the only allowable measurable differences are the ones in the listener. But I am not aware of any listening opportunities that match up to such an experiment. Instead, real listening happens in every manner of environment over every manner of speaker at wide variations in amplitude … blah blah blah. Sound is real time, and what you hear is real time. In the infinite range of environments, configurations, and content in which and to which people will listen, you honestly believe that there aren’t differences in equipment and application that can be heard, felt, otherwise sensed, and which affect user experience?
Okay, whatever. If you don’t mind, I’ll listen to my gear before I buy it, even if you certified it as perfect.
What you are saying appears to be akin to saying that all these 300hp engines are alike. Because, you know, we measured them on a dynamometer and their power curves are the same.
Yeah, but in real cars, on real roads, in real weather, in real life, they are different, and we can tell them apart. And we may prefer one over another, whether you like it or not.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@RareSanity:
Yes, so if you control the experiment so that the inputs are the same, and the outputs are the same, you can state that it is not possible to hear differences. And you can perform a controlled experiment to demonstrate.
But in real life, we are not listening in the middle of your controlled experiment where you dial out and engineer out all the differences. In real life there are differences, and people hear them. In real life, people configure and run the gear in ways that introduce the hated differences. They move around in different rooms, add and subtract speakers, crank up and down the volume, the rooms are empty, they are full of people … blah blah blah. So what is your point? That if you control all the variables, nothing varies? Unfortunately, real life audio is all about the variables. We don’t live in sound labs.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
But in real life listening situations, they operate in systems that do. Do they not?
Are all audiophiles bound to buy and equip acoustically perfect rooms, and employ perfect gear all along the reproduction chain, so that all variables are engineered out?
Or are we just doing the best we can with what we have and can afford? Are we physicists, or are we, you know, just people?
I’m sure that what I heard the other day isn’t what I thought I heard, I just didn’t have a physicist there to tell me what I heard. Maybe the physicists can hire themselves out as audio caddies?
RareSanity
@DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective:
Actually, no. I’m not arguing a “perfect” signal.
The argument was, all other things equal in a setup, if the CD player was swapped, there would be no perceptible difference in the sound. Because, as was said earlier in the thread, the D/A converters in modern CD players are so good, the human ear cannot discern.
Unless someone is blessed to have hearing that extends above 22kHz, they will sound the same, no matter who is listening.
RareSanity
@DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective:
That’s true.
But that has not been what the discussion has been about.
That is the beauty of science. I can capture what you heard, on an oscilloscope, and tell you if what you claim to have heard was actually there. There are people, myself included, that observe great detail in music. However, those details will still be there whether you are using a Rotel Reference CD player, or a Sony jukebox.
That’s what the debate was.
burnspbesq
@RareSanity:
Indeed. And I do appreciate your efforts to beat some “sense” into my thick old head.
burnspbesq
@Ross Hershberger:
Funniest sentence on this blog in weeks. You win.
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
I thoroughly enjoyed the intellectual jousting…
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@RareSanity:
Well then you win. When I think of all the time I have spent playing, singing, and listening to music without a physicist and an oscilloscope there to show me what I was hearing, I tell you, it breaks my heart.
Oh, the road not taken! I am off to Craigslist to see if I can find an unemployed physicist to work with me on this, and I also need some help from him installing a microwave oven in my rental house next week. Damned postwar metal kitchen cabinets ……
Now where did I leave that Walkman cassette player ….
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@RareSanity:
Arf.
RareSanity
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
You know, people are trying to paint me as the bad guy. I’m not telling anyone they need to be a physicist to enjoy good sound. To the contrary, I am saying that in order to obtain a wonderful sounding stereo system, it’s not necessary to take out a 2nd mortgage, and there is science that backs that up.
I am literally saying that most modern, consumer, non-high end, audio components are so good that excellent sound is more affordable than it ever has been.
In trying to argue with three or four different people at one time, that basic premise may not come out, but that’s all I’m trying to say.
RareSanity
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
I am exhausted from this thread, but, that made me laugh.
sven
My favorite product review of all time:
The Lexicon BD-30
The opening paragraph:
It is easy to laugh at anyone who purchased a Lexicon BD-30, but that would be entirely missing the point. The human brain is extraordinarily powerful but also tends to find patterns where none exist or back-fill narrative to make cognition possible. The result is that we see faces among the features of Mars, find dragons and ships among the clouds, and are embarrassed to find that the friend we shouted to at the supermarket is in fact a total stranger. Knowing that our senses are flawed, empirical evidence must be the final arbiter for understanding the world.
By suggesting that our perceptions cannot be our guide I make no value judgment. We accept the wisdom of de gustibus non est disputandum in musical preference, why not accept the same for audio reproduction? Let what we like best and what we can measure remain two separate questions…
russell
Anybody have any experience with gear from these guys?
darms
Have you considered using a PA amp? Consumer amps that happily drive 4 ohm loads are somewhat rare & expensive these days while professional sound reinforcement amps that do so are quite common and usually support 2 ohm loads as well. Some of these are fan-cooled and thus unsuitable for home use unless they can be remotely located but for example you can get a Behringer A500 (230RMS@4ohms, THD<0.01%) for $180. Or a Samson Servo 600 (300RMS@4ohms, THD<0.04%) for <$300.
BTW w/4-ohm loads speaker wire gauge (not brand) is important because at 4 ohms wire resistance becaomes a larger percentage of the total load seen b y the amp & affects the speaker's frequency response. I use 12AWG or larger.
darms
@russell:
No, but they are really proud of their stuff.