Let’s set aside for a moment the accusations that megachurch pastor Eddie Long is a hypocritical, gay-bashing closeted homosexual who used his position to coerce sex from teenage boys. Can we all just agree that an enterprise with a leader who rolls like this probably doesn’t deserve a tax deduction as a charity?
Bishop Long cuts a flashy figure in Lithonia, the Atlanta suburb where he lives and has built his church. He is often seen in a Bentley attended by bodyguards. He tends to wear clothes that show off his muscular physique. He favors Gucci sunglasses, gold necklaces, diamond bracelets and Rolex watches. He lives in a 5,000-square-foot house with five bedrooms, which he bought for $1.1 million in 2005.[…]
In 2005, for instance, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution published tax records showing that from 1997 to 2000 Bishop Long had accepted $3 million in salary, housing, a car and other perks from a charity he controlled.
Taxing the non-charitable part of megachurch operations isn’t even on the political radar, and I’m sure it’s just my heathen nature causing me to bring it up, but why the hell should the Haggards and Longs of the world get hundreds of thousands of dollars of tax-free perks from their “charities” just because they’re in the Jesus biz?
ant
This “submit” business with many modern faiths is wrong I believe.
I think it’s time humankind move on from this.
birthmarker
Our elected officials do similar things. I can’t link, but google “Congressional Charities Pulling In Corporate Cash
By ERIC LIPTON” to read a current article about how
congressmen use foundations supported by corporate donations for their own means.
electricgrendel
Well- if there’s one thing I remember from the Bible it’s that Jesus wanted us all to be rich because rich people get to heaven the easiest, right?
grung0r
When every statement one makes(implicitly) starts: “an invisible man in the sky told me…” It’s awfully difficult to be ‘right’ about anything.
geg6
Apologies to the fee fees of believers, but churches and religions are a suckers’ game. All evidence points to this as truth. Believe if you wish, but don’t be suckered into religions or churches. There is nothing holy about them, just another power game.
rootless_e
Worse, when the suckers donate to the church, they get money back from my taxes.
stuckinred
“Give em a light
and they’ll follow it anywhere”
firesign theater
Sly
He loves you… and he needs money!
c u n d gulag
Jesus SAVES so they can spend!
WyldPirate
[email protected]:
This. In spades.
The “dispensers” of religion–the priests, shamans, pastors, etc.–is the world’s second oldest profession.
I don’t think you should apologize for hurting the “fee fees” of believers, either. They’re delusional for believing in a tooth fairy for adults anyway and should be confronted with their mental illness at every opportunity.
Kowtowing to them and showing deference to their “fee fees” is co-dependency.
Dennis SGMM
@geg6:
I always wondered why an omnipotent and omniscient god needed intermediaries.
beltane
Once, a long, long time ago, Chuck Grassley did make noises about investigating the finances of some of these megachurch/entertainment complexes. The fundies were not happy about this, and as they are the only group with a full array of rights in this country, nothing came of Grassley’s proposal. Some animals are just more equal than other animals in the USA, and evangelical “Christians” are the most equal animals of them all.
arguingwithsignposts
As someone who has worked with and been friends with a number of pastors who actually follow that 1st century dude in the robe who (according to legend) got executed for his beliefs, I am definitely down with that statement.
Benjamin Cisco
You answered your own question.
__
It’s the new third rail.
someguy
I realize we’re stuck in a marriage of convenience w/t black churches due to their GOTV efforts, but other than that it seems to me we ought to chase people who believe in invisible men in the sky out of the Democratic Party. The Republicans provide a pretty clear example of the fact you can’t run a sane party when you’re trying to please loonies.
Southern Beale
Hmmm … don’t know where my comment went from this morning, maybe I posted it on the wrong thread. Was just pointing out that Benny Hinn is also facing accusations of an affair (with both another man and with a hottie fellow televangelist), his wife has left him and filed for divorce AND he claims to be $2 million in the hole.
So, not a good time to be a phony TV preacher dude.
jrg
Let me guess… God also wants you to greco-roman wrestle while covered in baby oil.
WereBear
I’ll just bet this fellow loved him some “muscular Christianity.”
Religions who ask people to “have faith” have an Achilles heel the size of Manhattan, because they are vulnerable to grifters. (I was told recently that Salt Lake City is known as Con Man Central.) But it can come in the form of a water engine, or a Nigerian widow, or wearing the robes of Jesus.
It has nothing, NOTHING, to do with engineering, widows, or a good and sturdy philosophy which emphasizes compassion and care.
Southern Beale
Someone explain to me why Scientology is allowed its tax deduction, please? At least Long’s church does provide services to the needy — they have a food bank & healthcare workers, housing ministry & a homeless shelter. Not justifying Long’s profligate lifestyle in any way but the reason churches get this tax deduction (which I wrote about last week) is because they supposedly provide services to the community. I have yet to see what service Scientology provides to the community besides junking up my driveway with ads for L. Ron Hubbard books.
Annie
One of the best books I’ve read is:
“Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal” by Christopher Moore
It is too funny in parts, while it does an excellent job of presenting different sides of religious faith — the good and the awful.
Mr. Furious
@Southern Beale:
I’d be curious to se a breakdown of each dollar collected: percent spent on Bentleys and Gucci vs. percent spent on food banks.
Anyone in that congregation too stupid to want the same things deserves ripping off. But it’s bullshit we ALL foot a tax break for it.
jinxtigr
Before we all suck each others’ dicks too much about all this, bear in mind that John links to Slacktivist, and I hadn’t seen Fred’s writing until I discovered him through Balloon Juice.
And Slacktivist is a blog by a REAL evangelical. Dude calls out his fellows for beating on Biblibal prohibitions of homosexuality and ignoring Biblical prohbitions on USURY- reserves much of his snark for the Left Behind books, which he’s methodically snarking through and being consistently appalled at how un-Christ-like the whole worldview of that stuff is- and is making very smart, very socialist demands for major government policy initiatives that I can’t believe more people aren’t talking about.
Like, a huge percentage of our bridges and tunnels in the USA are literally collapsing. (there’s one in MY town that’s closed for just that reason). Meanwhile, we have this huge unemployment. HELLO? Hire the unemployed people to fix the fucking bridges! They need fixing!
That is a bible banger who, to me, makes the bible look GOOD because the dude cares about ALL of it, not just the bits that reinforce his pet prejudices. And because there’s a bible banger out there whom I think is really, really cool, I’m not totally thrilled with indiscriminate hate-gasms for Xians any more than I am for Muslims.
Just sayin’ cause I needed to be sayin’…
Eagerly awaiting release from moderation jail, God forbid I should use the name of a political creed. Can we have the word ‘capitalist’ also land you in moderation, just to be even-handed? :) no, wait, ‘libertarian’ :)
WereBear
All good points; but then what of charity?
How about a structure where dollars spent on charity are different from dollars spent on Bentleys?
Kristine
But it’s bullshit we ALL foot a tax break for it.
The threat of removal of tax-exempt status is one thing that keeps religious groups from getting even more involved than they do in politics. The money and influence that might be unleashed if that status were pulled bear consideration.
That’s the theory, at any rate. I don’t recall any religious group or church ever actually losing it.
Ash Can
According to the IRS, he should be paying income tax on that hefty income of his. I can only guess that his tax lawyer is working overtime, or he’s afoul of the law and no one’s gone after him yet, or both.
Kristine
@jinxtigr:
Thanks for this. I was surprised how quickly the thread veered off into indiscriminate faith-bashing, but maybe I shouldn’t have been. I’m not sure what I believe, and I understand arguments for both sides–I swear I’m undeclared UU–but I consider that there’s a difference between the personal beliefs of the individual and the actions of the mechanism that seeks to control them in the interest of power acquisition and financial gain.
Ash Can
@Kristine: Forget it, Jake, it’s Chinatown. Between this thread and the “Marked for Death” one, this joint is just going to be a radical-fest this morning. I’m off to get Bottle Rocket off to school, do some baking, and clean the basement.
Annie
@Kristine:
But, for many churches if they loose their tax status, they loose their church, and often their visibility, status, and influence. Also, pointing out corruption within the church, particularly in our current political climate when the religious right has married value-less conservatives is not faith-bashing. Think Bush, O’Donnell, Vitter, etc. All good people of faith.
geg6
@Kristine:
Well, since that is pretty much what I said, I guess we agree. I just don’t feel the need to sugarcoat it as much as you do, but it’s the same sentiment. Believe if you wish, but you’re a sucker if you buy into a particular church or religion because all they are about is power (which = $).
Sly
@Southern Beale:
Scientology does provide a drug rehab program, called Narconon. It’s based on junk science, and thus doesn’t work as advertised and has some glaring health risks, but hey, why let something like efficacy and safety stand in the way of a tax deduction.
Jay C
Well, good luck with trying to fix that particular “loophole”! Big Religion is a Big Business in this country – complete with a tidy array of financial rewards for Big-Business-style competitionism – and is nothing if not well-organized. Big Religion has proved itself very good at Getting Out The Vote and putting its arm on officialdom and Congress where its interests are involved; so far, mostly in trying to enact their prejudices into the law; but if their Gravy Train For Jesus ever got seriously threatened with derailment, I think the outcry would make the Tea Party brouhaha look like a fringe distraction – big time
Foolish as it may be, it’s the flip side of “freedom-of-religion”; if the folks out there want – for whatever reason – to cough up their cash to Pastor Megabucks of the Church of the Holy Payola, there’s not much the government can (or, to be frank ought to be able to) do about it. Of course, educating the public might help, but outside of Adam-and-Eve-on-dinosaurs, we know what Big Religion thinks of “education”….
Kristine
@Annie:
No argument there. But the veiled and not-so-veiled comments about the men in the sky, etc, just got under my skin. I didn’t see the need to make that leap.
Southern Beale
Well not exactly. His income from anything that is ministry related is tax exempt and he is allowed to opt out of Social Security Insurance should he choose. What is not tax deductible is income from things like books and other commercial ventures. That’s why when Rick Warren says he gives all of his money from that “Bullshit Driven Life” empire to charity, I don’t get a warm fuzzy feeling. He sorta has to, and bet you dollars to donuts that his “charity” is part of his Saddleback Church ministry.
It’s hard to say when an entire church is a commercial venture.
Southern Beale
Agree with Kristine here 100%. Corruption-bashing is OK, religion-bashing is not.
Rosalita
@Dennis SGMM:
This. Always has been my question too, as someone raised Catholic. It’s.all.about.control.
Violet
@Dennis SGMM:
And why the god is so insecure that he/she/it must be praised and flattered nonstop. That perplexes me.
Kryptik
@Violet:
Funny thing is, if you believe Jesus, you’re not SUPPOSED to do it nonstop. At least, not in public. You know, pray on the corner in public as the hypocrites do, etc. and ad infinitum?
Odie Hugh Manatee
As a thoroughly lapsed RC, I couldn’t care less about who or what, if anything, anyone worships.It just don’t matter to me one bit.
Until their beliefs start fucking up lives other than theirs. At that point they get what they have coming from me. When it comes religion, I haven’t seen a “real’ believer in years. Lots of people who say they are whatever they are but they sure don’t practice it. I have never seen so many so-called Christians that do nothing but hate on others than I have in the last few years.
I see lots of lip service and little else. I am sure there are some good ones out there, I just don’t know any of them.
Violet
Just change a few words…
…and watch wingnut heads explode. What’s perfectly acceptable for them is America-hating terrorism in others.
August J. Pollak
That photo in the Times article is killing me. With all the signage I thought it was a special event at Phillips Hockey Arena or something; nope, it’s his own church. They have corporate advertisements adorned on the walls. Including for Hooters.
Because the rules about money changing in church were, at best, ambiguous.
foxhunter
I work in Lithonia about three miles from the ‘mega church’. For those of you that don’t remember, Coretta Scott King’s funeral was held there….town was on lock down for two days due to all of the ‘celebrities’ in attendance.
Oh, and if you roll the tape of his grand entrance prior to speaking, you can see what looks like Lynn Swann slap him on the back from the front row leather highback chair section. Someone please tell me I’m wrong….for the sake of Steeler nation.
You can see an aerial of the 240 acre spread here. Tax emept, pfffft.
On a related note, I grew up in a town south of Atlanta. Happens to be home to Truett Cathy, Chick-fil-a founder and billionaire. He is an active member of the First Baptist Church of Jonesboro, and has give millions. Membership roster at one time was 7 or 8k. Well, due to the tax exempt nature of said church, it (the church) almost single-handedly put the town of Jonesboro out of business as it annexed most the real estate within the sleepy city limits. Tax base eroded almost to zero, no money to pay for city services.
And the church had absolutely no problem doing this to support their growing ‘flock’. Just don’t expect a quick EMT, fire or police response in case of emergency. I guess they can all just pray real hard.
Svensker
@Violet:
A bunch of my atheist friends think this, as well. I try to explain to them that they have it backwards — God doesn’t need to be praised. But the majesty, glory, and enormity of God are awe inspiring and if you believe that, then of course your natural attitude will be one of praise and worship. Not in a grovelling way, but in an “OMG I had no idea how incredible!” way.
dcdl
Amen!
Svensker
We went to a little Anglican church in Toronto on Sunday, that sits right at the edge of downtown between the gay district and the projects. The congregation was about 100 people, many old timers, lots of middle-aged gays and a fair clump of African immigrants. Lovely service. Their church is struggling for money since most of the more well-off congregants are in their 80s and 90s and the younger ones are poor. The church houses 57 homeless people year round and recently built a kitchen so it can feed them properly. In the winter, they open part of the building to an additional 35. The gap between that little urban church and the Pastor Longs of this world is big and wide. I don’t think it’s right to conflate them.
"Fair and Balanced" Dave
Apparently some people view “Elmer Gantry” as an instruction manual.
ruemara
Turns out this is my cousin’s pastor, so she’s now in a mania of “GOD IS SO GOOD, I LOVE JESUS” posts on her FB status. Oh well. My family is hella religious-I gave that up for lent. But for my mom, she started down the road to fundytopia and megachurch rightwingism a few years back, then she really looked at who she was following and felt that the flashy wealth, prosperity gospel thing is not what jesus is about. The best that can come out of this is this church getting some real gospel. Probably better for the poor in the area too.
foxhunter
@ruemara:
And there is plenty of that in this area, with approximately 25% of the children in Dekalb county living below the poverty level (this figure was 23% in 1999).
bmcchgo
He is not a closeted homosexual, he has children. At most he’s bisexual.
Kristine
Closeted homosexuals can’t father children?
Serious question. Wouldn’t it serve as part of the shield? Does a man need to be sexually attracted to women in general in order to have sex with one woman? Couldn’t he fantasize his way through it? Wouldn’t physical response just take over?
fasteddie9318
__
Sounds like he’s been worshiping with The General.
Sad_Dem
Quote: Someone explain to me why Scientology is allowed its tax deduction, please?
Scientology infiltrated the U.S. government by getting some of its people hired at the I.R.S. They dug up dirt on the top people there, and twisted their arms in person and in court until Scientology got its tax exemption in a secret deal. The muscular Christians have nothing on the Scientologists.
Sad_Dem
Quote: He is not a closeted homosexual, he has children. At most he’s bisexual.
It’s been done before. Ladies and gentlemen, meet Billy James Hargis.
jayjaybear
@foxhunter: I can’t watch the video here at work but I wouldn’t be surprised. Swann is pretty conservative…he ran for governor of Pennsylvania in 2006 as a Republican and I seem to remember a lot of wingnut rhetoric in his ads.
foxhunter
@Kristine:
You are assuming sexual relations exist in the marriage/arrangement.
And I will tell you from personal experience, physical response doesn’t always partner up with the mental stimulus (or lack thereof). But that’s just me. I’ve never been one to fake anything or pull off the attempt.
Wait.
Is this Balloon Juice?
foxhunter
@jayjaybear: Probably a case of mistaken identity, but I ran the dvr back an forth several times…looked just like him.
Anyhoo, there is (or was) a ton of starpower behind this fellow.
El Cid
Put this down as more evidence that every single public figure who loudly condemns others for their sexual abnormalities with regard to homosexuality or premarital sex or whatever will soon be exposed with lots of perversity skeletons exploding from his/her closet.
I’m thinking Christine O’Donnell has some major, major magma pressure building up in that closet somewhere.
Earl Butz
Sounds to me like my man has all three bases covered.
Earl Butz
@bmcchgo: My goodness, you have a lot to learn. Plenty of closet queers have wives and kids. And they’re not “bisexual” – they’re 100% homosexual.
lol
Churches are why I don’t take seriously the claims that conservatives are more charitable.
aimai
@jinxtigr:
I adore Fred, at Slacktivist, and if I could form a personality cult around him I would. Excellent human being, philosopher, and religious thinker. I’m an atheist myself but religion is no worse than other modern industrial forms of sucking money out of the pockets of desperate people.
aimai
jake the snake
I have tended toward thinking that Churches should be taxed.
But, I never discuss religion, because I always offend people, even if I don’t criticise religion. When I tell them I hold all religions in the same level of respect, they are OK, until they realize that I do mean all religions:, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, the African diasporic religons, etc.
I admit that I struggle with Scientology and apocalyptic millenialist Christianity.
Brachiator
No.
Jaybird
An honest question that I do not know the answer to:
Are there any countries out there that tax churches? I mean, is the whole “we need to remove the tax exempt status of churches!” thing something that nobody else has ever done before?
Could you point me to a country that has done this and say “We need to be more like X!”?
Brachiator
@Jaybird:
Good question. I don’t know the answer to this one, but a quick google search turned up this surprise:
In Germany for example, about 70% of church revenues come from church tax. Here and in the other countries cited, you have government support of churches, with opt out provisions.
In the early years of the United States, some states also imposed taxes to support one church or another.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Earl Butz:
I hope you are not implying that, by putting it in quotation marks, bisexuality doesn’t exist. I mean, I’m pretty well aware how some gay men and women put down bisexuality, implying that we are confused or in denial about being gay.
Anyways, with these kinds of stories about famous repressed homosexuals, I think there’s not enough information to really know if someone is actually bi or trying to live the closeted life. It can be a really complex issue.
toujoursdan
There are lots of gay people who have kids from previous marriages. They just close their eyes and think of England during the act.
I am a gay man who goes to an Episcopal church in New York with an openly gay priest who makes about $60,000, and a beautiful 200 year old building that needs about $3 million in repairs. As a member of our finance committee we’re always trying to find inventive ways to raise money and keep the place going.
We don’t believe we’re the one true faith, and have potlucks and do joint projects with our Jewish, Muslim and Catholic neighbouring congregations that help with our local homeless and hungry. Our congregation runs the gamut from near-deists to near Catholics.
There are lots of “Bishop” Longs and Tim Haggards to justifiably bash, but America was built on the back of religious congregations. They established about 80% of American hospitals, 75% of America’s colleges and universities (including Harvard, Yale, Brown, Columbia, Northwestern, etc.) and they still run 90% of the nation’s homeless shelters and food banks. Many mainline congregations are still using their money to do the same thing in the developing world in places where the local government can’t provide services. Our congregation, decaying building and all, contributes to the only functioning university and teaching hospital in Liberia: Cuttington University a school that was established by the Episcopal Church in the 19th Century, had its campus destroyed by the Liberian civil war and has rebuilt.
daverave
@foxhunter:
As an architect in California, the thing that struck me in that aerial photo of the church site is the acres of asphalt without a single shade tree. Here in soshulish CA, every seventh space or so would be required to have a shade tree so that the sun wouldn’t be constantly heating that asphalt to 200 degrees or so. Maybe it doesn’t get hot in Georgia?
David in NY
Scientology was at one time stripped of its charitable status because of irregular payments made to L. Ron Hubbard and his family. After his death, it regained that status. One of the rules of such things is that the salary of an employee like Eddie Long is that it must be “reasonable,” see 412 F. 2d 1197, which must surely be in question here.
gex
@Kristine: Do tell how this prevents them from being politically active? At least if we pull the tax exemption, they’ll stop playing the game like they are impartial. The political denominations are already political and they are predominantly on one side. The pro-lifers/anti-gay religious dominate politics more than anti-war/anti-death penalty.
It is pretty dangerous allowing organized religion to be this expressly political while maintaining their ability to claim impartiality.
drkrick
His salary is as taxable as anyone’s. But there’s a lot of leeway to make payments as “expense allowances” which aren’t taxed. All of the very vanilla mainline Protestant churches I’ve ever been part of have taken advantage of that particular opportunity, so on top of a nominal salary of say $40K, there’s another $50K or so of education, transportation, housing and other allowances.
Kristine
@gex:
First line of my post: The threat of removal of tax-exempt status is one thing that keeps religious groups from getting even more involved than they do in politics.
I didn’t say they weren’t already involved. My concern is that lifting tax exemption might lead to a Citizens United-type situation where they start throwing even more money into the political pot and even putting forth their own candidates. It may be a non-issue. It could be yet another way to split the conservative vote. I just don’t believe it would lessen their participation in the process.
foxhunter
@daverave:
Come on, daverave.
We’re talking about Georgia here. We pave or concrete over EVERYTHING. It’s a way of life…don’t care about the heat, nor the excessive runoff and erosion from uncontrolled rainstorms.
On a more serious note, I’ve spent time in Northern California. Much better, architecturs and aesthetics. Wish we did it that way here.
Ruckus
While attending a RC technical high school, many, many years ago, the area cardinal came to visit. He arrived in a Rolls Royce limousine, was wearing the silk robes and had enough diamonds and rubies on him to pay the debt, at the time, of a lot of third world countries. Not being catholic I didn’t quite comprehend the idea that a person having taken a vow of poverty could control so much wealth. I asked the kid next to me and was told that nothing he is wearing nor the car are his, they belong to the church. The cardinal is actually poor, the church is not. My next question was, can anyone else use or wear any of this stuff. Well no, no they can’t.
Short answer. The church has legal ownership of everything, the cardinal, pastor, reverend has control. It’s BS for the tax code. It’s not reality.
A lot of the churches we hear about are like this, as are a lot of charities. Maybe 10-20% goes to the people they purport to help, 80-90% goes to the people who control everything. And all of us support it.
bmcchgo
Hey Earl Butz and Kristine:
What @Amanda said:
I might be the most naive homosexual on earth, but I assume that if a gay person has children they could be bisexual at that period in time.
Arclite
He’s making the argument himself that he doesn’t need a tax break…
Redshirt
The best scheudenfreude is the religious/politician hypocrite caught blatantly going against his purported values.
If you’re Repuglican, you get away with it, of course. Vitter. Ensign. Etc.