Now that the Egyptian protests have turned violent, now what? Cut off all aid to Egypt?
I wished the WH had stayed out of this, but domestic politics wouldn’t let them, it appears, and now we are going to be blamed for anything that goes on. We belligerently told him the time to transition is “Now,” so if he continues to do what he wants, we look impotent and still get the blame from the people on the ground.
Yeah, I know- screaming “Freedom” from the safety of your twitter account is exhilarating.
Pooh
Just the birthpangs of democracy, amirate, Condi?
UncommonSense
Obama couldn’t win on this one.
If he had said nothing, the right would have said his silence emboldened Mubarak to initiate the crackdown.
Barb (formerly Gex)
Can we ship them some foam #1 fingers? Or do we need them all for our U-S-A U-S-A chant?
ETA: The ugly, honest truth is that brown, non-Christian lives simply do not matter to the right.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@UncommonSense: That’s the fun game with the right. Every situation is like that.
wobblybits
International politics wouldn’t let him stay out of it either. I was watching Al Jazeera English and more than a few Egyptians that they interviewed called on Obama to say/do something. I’m still watching Al Jazeera now and it looks as if some type of nasty clash is about to happen led by plain clothes police.
General Stuck
Likely would have in any case given our long term support of this autocrat. A non violent revolution in this part of the world is very rare, if non existent anyways, and if we are going to get blamed for something now, better it be on the right side of the equation, due to being on the wrong side for so long. Egypt is fortunate to have a mostly benign and respected military, to maybe keep things from getting out of control. Mubarek says he is not running for the rigged reelection coming up. I suspect we are witnessing the real election going on in the streets of Cairo and elsewhere.
wobblybits
From Al Jazeera:
Baud
That was going to happen regardless of what we did or did not do.
Edit: Almost forgot. FREEDOM!
aimai
I really don’t think there was any one right path for Obama to take: not rhetorically and not in terms of action. Saying “now means now” isn’t any worse than saying nothing at all, and certainly no worse than waffling around. Diplomatic speak is very rarely meaningful/actionable. Its something that gets said publicly that signals, or covers up, that which is said privately.
Mubarak knows that basically he has no outside support. He and his cohort of friends are each trying to figure out what to do next. Mubarak is the least of it–he can probably flee and take quite a bit of money with him. But his entire pyramid of supporters? They now need to figure out where and how they will fit in to a different egypt. They aren’t going to listen to anything Obama or any outsider says because its simply not relevant. They are like rats in a barrel fighting over what is in the barrel. We can reduce the inflow of money to Egypt, or not, but they still will fight for the remnants.
aimai
Zam
@UncommonSense: Even if Egypt becomes a liberal pro-western democracy with frequent and fair elections Obama will suffer if the right has anything to do with it because somehow they will be able to spin it as a bad thing. That in addition to simultaneously insisting Bush did this, or it was because the American people chose republicans in the last election.
Mark S.
I don’t have any problem with sending humanitarian aid, but we sure as shit shouldn’t be sending them the usual military hardware, considering it will be used on the Egyptian people.
I know, I know, machine guns and tanks don’t kill people, etc.
hilts
More bitching and moaning from the worthless, useless, clueless, fucking White House Press Corps
h/t http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/141745-white-house-reporters-complain-obama-is-shutting-them-out-on-egypt
LarsThorwald
I don’t know on what ice-cream dolloped, unicorn-populated world you live in where you think “stay[ing] out of this” was an option for the President of Egypt’s largest patron State, but okay, yeah, sure. I wish everyone had listened to Washington about entangling alliances. I wish The Capitals had won the Stanley Cup, I wish Arrested Development was still on the air, and I wish Carrie Brownstein were my girlfriend, but, as a famous author wrote — I believe it was Willa Cather — tough titties.
Obama’s speech comported with the best of American ideals with respect to self-determination, freedom of speech, assembly, and giving voice to the populace, so good on him for that. If it turns out messy, it was going to turn out messy either way, and imagine if we had pushed for Mubarak to stay and this shit happened. We’d look like Cheney’s raging hard-on. Sorry, ladies.
I’m perfectly fine with our position. Revolutions are shitty deals, baby. I watched 1989-1990 right on the television. I’ve seen this movie before, and it ain’t Hollywood. It’s a Mike Leigh hot mess. C’est la vie.
JGabriel
John Cole:
Threaten it, at any rate. According to AJE: Obama, Clinton, and Crowley have apparently all made clear to Suleiman and their respective counterparts that aid re-assessment is occuring and that continued violence will be factored into it.
.
stuckinred
@Mark S.: Neither does tear gas so maybe the hysteria over that should subside.
Ana Gama
There was no way for us to stay out of it. We’ve been partnered with Mubarak for 30 years. Obama needs to push him hard now. Cut off the military aid if necessary. The longer we wait, the worse it will be. Time to end this.
GregB
In other breaking news Powerline Blog’s Paul Mirengoff has left the blog.
It seems his law firm represented Yaqui Natives and Paul saw fit to ridicule the Native sermon/blessing at the Tuscon memorial.
He was called on the carpet and has pulled a Palin at Powerline.
stuckinred
@GregB: That “news” broke a few days ago.
Carnacki
WOLVERINES! (Until one Muslim Brotherhood member is elected to an office then it’ll be BRING BACK MUBARAK!)
JGabriel
wobblybits:
Seconded. I was pretty surprised the first time I heard someone call for Obama’s support, but it became a minor refrain throughout the day.
.
Alex S.
I don’t know… I think the Obama administration has handled it just right. They are pushing behind the scenes, they are not following the pro-Israel line, they are carefully promoting democratic values.
JGabriel
@Ana Gama:
Then Mubarak lets the blockade on Gaza, and security on the Suez canal, lapse. We can credibly threaten to reduce aid, but cutting it off completely is probably not an option.
.
J.W. Hamner
Q: Do you think that the Mubarak regime had been shown to be illegitimate?
1) If so, how can we explicitly or tacitly support it?
2) If no, how can we ignore their violent crackdowns on peaceful protesters?
I have absolutely no idea what the White House should do, but pretending like nothing is happening is definitely not it.
wobblybits
Heartbreaking:
Al Jazeera reporter talking to a pro-democracy supporter who wanted the reporter to remember his name and tell his story because he (and many of the pro-democracy demonstrators) believe that the pro-mubarack people are there to kill them.
JPL
The peaceful marches in Egypt fascinated me. When you are waiting for trickle down for thirty years, you reach a point of frustration. I also supported the President’s low key approach until today. Once Muburak started bringing out the thugs the President should have closed the embassy and stopped all support. Okay maybe that’s over the top but I certainly expected more out of the President today.
BTW..I have my degree in egyptian cotton.
stuckinred
cyntax
We really don’t have the kind of control over these things that American Exceptionalism would lead many to believe we do. We can’t ignore the desires of the Egyptian people any more than we can force Mubarak out.
stuckinred
@JPL: Huh?
General Stuck
I think it is fine for Obama to suggest democratic principles behind the scene and state US support for such of governing system outcome for Egypt. I hope he doesn’t do it in public and tie any US support based on the reformers compliance with our preferred form of government. I would oppose that.
Maude
@hilts:
Makes you like Obama a lot doesn’t it?
@Alex S.:
He has handled this extremely well. He would have been condemned around the world had he kept silent.
Bubblegum Tate
I’m seeing an uptick in “Bush was right about spreading democracy in the Middle East, so let’s all praise him for his vision” among wingnuts; I suppose that means the violence falls under the “freedom is messy” heading.
Elisabeth
I don’t know; I’ve been out of the loop a large part of the evening but it looked like reports I had seen in the late morning/early afternoon pegged Mubarak and/or his inner circle as the villains. The pro-Mubarak folks are widely seen as the instigators and they didn’t come out in force until after Mubarak’s speech last night.
I did read at TPM that Scobey is taking over talks from Wisner since the latter’s conversations did not remain private. Looks like the Administration would rather work quietly and get some transition started than to be publicly in the middle of the whole thing.
JPL
@stuckinred: Several edits later..I was disappointed today. Cameron came out stronger today than Obama against the violence in Cairo. Hopefully, behind the scenes the President is doing more to convince Mubarek to call off the goons.
stuckinred
@JPL: Gotcha! I think he’s doing fine but that’s just me. This is no sprint.
eemom
@LarsThorwald:
Yeah, that.
God, but the stoopid on this blog is thick today.
JenJen
It’s bad enough watching the protesters hold up the tear gas canisters with “MADE IN USA” stamped on them, but just wait until those made-in-the-USA tanks start rolling, because those camels and bullwhips are not gonna get Mubarak’s job done for him.
I just don’t see this ending without a lot more bloodshed, and it’s frightening to me.
stuckinred
@JenJen: The tanks are made in Egypt.
Elisabeth
@stuckinred:
Because we just send the parts now.
(Although I doubt it’s a surprise to anyone that the parts come from the good ol’ USA.)
NobodySpecial
The key to stuff like this is knowing the proper time to flip positions from support of Mubarak/Suleiman to support of whatever comes after them. The problem here is that Obama is being failed by his support structure, because our default position is ‘support the strongman’, ‘defend Israel at all costs’, and ‘Don’t talk to the Shia’ orgs’ – all of which we’re going to have to break at some point.
JenJen
@stuckinred: Abrams tanks are made in Egypt?? All of them? Is it a co-production deal?
wobblybits
stuckinred
@Elisabeth: And if they use the tanks to protect the protesters from the “thugs and camels”?
lamh32
@Ana Gama:
Guy on CNN said that yes US can use AID as leverage, but that AID is not gonna be the first thing on the Egypt military’s mind. The Egypt military has a VERY good relationship with the people. He said that the military should NOT be confused with the Egyptian police. The question for the Egyptian military right now is do they turn on their leader, Muburak, or do they side with their people. As I’ve heard it, it’s is a tough choice. From what I understand, the Egyptian military has never fired upon the Egyptian people. So my guess is that Muburak realizes that if he was to order the military to “fire on protestors” then the military may turn against him and side with the protestors even faster.
That’s why at this point, Muburak is using his pro-Muburak “thugs” to assault the protestors (Richard Engel from MSNBC says that this is a pattern of how Muburak terrorizes and corrupts election. It’s a pattern that Engel said Muburak has done before) and maybe disillusion the protestors. If he can get them to stop coming out, then he wins.
There ain’t much the US can do, unless we are suggesting another CIA assassination type job, which worked out so well for us last time.
freelancer
Anderson Cooper’s cameraman was rolling when he and his crew were attacked. Talk about some scary fucking footage. Just watching that made me feel tense like I was playing Left4Dead or some survival horror game.
I cannot imagine what it is like for Egyptians on the ground, battling thugs with impromptu phalanxes and homemade shields. I don’t know what we can do, or if we SHOULD do anything given our history, it’s not our place to. However, I can’t help watching this footage and silently begging the military to take the side of the anti-Mubarak protestors. What do we do next? We’ll figure it out, but for now, I want these people to win. They’ve earned it in blood. Many times over.
/proxyfreedomfighting blogger
Omnes Omnibus
@JenJen:
When the people in the street are winning the key to avoiding too much bloodshed is to leave the people in power an out. To give them a way of saving something for themselves so they don’t decided to fight like cornered rats. It worked in Eastern Europe and it worked in South Africa. On the other hand, the people in power have to be smart enough to take the out when they have a chance.
stuckinred
@JenJen:
Amir_Khalid
The Obama admin was always going to have to review its relationship with Mubarak because of this crisis, especially if he did anything egregious — which looks like what he (and/or his crew) is doing now. Obama and his people have avoided, as they should, specific prescriptions about the transition they say is urgent. I read Gibbs’ “now means now” as more of a warning than a threat: Mubarak’s actions might help him stay in power; but the longer he keeps this up, the more he winds up delegitimizing his own rule and the direr the consequences for his nation and himself.
(Why does FYWP still flag “Obama” as a misspelling?)
wobblybits
I don’t see how the president could do anything different than he has done given what I have seen and heard on Al Jazeera
stuckinred
@freelancer: Remember what it looks like when people start with that “pitchforks” and “take to the streets” stuff.
bkny
that was leahy’s threat earlier tonite — if mubarak doesn’t leave, all aid will be withheld.
JenJen
@stuckinred: So they’re constructed in Egypt, using (mostly) US-manufactured parts?
I was not aware of that. Thanks very much for the info.
The Humanity
Would it be too much to tell the world that as long as blood flows from peaceful Egyptian protesters heads $2.1B/year will not flow from the U.S. to Mubarak?
stuckinred
@JenJen: Yea. Our association with the Egyptian military goes back just after the civil war when both Union and Confederate officers went there to help them.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
John, honestly, I don’t understand how, precisely, you think we could have “stayed out of this.”
No matter what anyone of us might feel about it, this country has its hands very, very deeply in the Egyptian pie and it has since at least 1978 (1956, in a way), and we are in it. The tanks are ours, the tear gas is ours, and much of the little support that Egyptian civil society gets from the outside world is ours, too.
We are in it. And frankly, I think Obama is doing a phenomenal job walking the narrowest of tight-ropes, for exactly the reasons that Marc Lynch laid out here, over the weekend: http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/29/obamas_handling_egypt_pretty_well
“Staying out of it” would be like deciding to bankroll a troubled but useful business, and then trying to “stay out of it” when the manager started harassing the women. Only times about 80 million (or 1.3 billion, depending on if you want to count Egyptians or aid dollars).
If you want to argue that we should be isolationist, that might be an argument worth having, but for the time being, we’re not. You can choose not to bankroll another business, but you’re still responsible to the investment you’ve already made.
stuckinred
@The Humanity: Just how are YOU going to determine who is peaceful. Morning Joe seemed to be able to make all kinds of determinations from looking at video tape.
The Dangerman
Seems to me Obama has played it about as well as it could possibly be played; 30 year dictatorships don’t end quietly and being silent when the shit hit the palm fans would have been a bad call. Also, McCain coming out and playing “bad cop” is inspired. If McCain did that unilaterally, good for him; if he did it is tandem with Obama, bravo for both of them.
hilts
@Maude:
This Egypt story is serious fucking business and I just wish that the White House Press Corps could stop whining like bitches for 10 seconds. The White House is not obligated to reveal every fucking nanosecond of their deliberations to these asswipes.
kdaug
@LarsThorwald:
I could be wrong, but I believe that was Shakespeare.
lamh32
@JPL:
Embassy staff have already been asked to close Embassy and evacuate yesterday or the day before I believe.
THE
The rising food prices and oil prices have put great strains on the Egyptian economy.
The political troubles mean Egypt’s tourist industry is crushed. One of the major sources of income.
Now this is my greatest concern.
djork
@LarsThorwald:
Carrie Brownstein is all mine…if she liked boys, that is.
MoZeu
Belligerent? Huh? The United States calls on its allies to respect the will of their people is belligerent? WTF.
hilts
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
I agree with you 100% and have reached the end of my rope with the WH Press Corps for bitching and moaning that they haven’t been invited to hang out in the Situation Room with Obama and his national security staff during their deliberations.
fasteddie9318
Cut off aid, period.
Expel Egypt’s ambassador to the US.
I think we should do both, but what else is there to do? Short of sending in a Delta team to nab Mubarak and take him to the Hague, which would look a might hypocritical given how we’ve got Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Yoo, et al, all running free over here, I don’t know what else can be done. Besides, Mubarak isn’t the problem now; the problem is the army top brass, which is perfectly willing to let the peons have a new strongman but has absolutely no interest in democratic reform. They won’t open fire on the protesters themselves in order to maintain the illusion of neutrality, but they won’t stop the plainclothes security police from lobbing Molotovs, either.
srv
Fisk says the resistance gave a good fight.
mediumtex
Personally I wish Obama Hussein would issue a statement saying that if the Egyptian Army won’t protect the peaceful protesters then the American army will. Imagine US Marines standing between the pro-Muburak thugs and the people. This is a 1953 situation and this time I’d like us to be on the right side.
Because of your idiotic statement I hope Polamalu gets gang raped by the Packers, that’s of course if Big Ben hasn’t done it already.
Dekk
Oh noes! We might “look impotent”! Our “credibility around the world” might be damaged!
Best to keep our mouths shut.
Jesus, Cole.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
It’s OK if Obama sides, even a little, with the citizens: It makes him look good with the people. And what’s Mubarak going to do, tells to keep our weapons?
Amanda in the South Bay
Well, I don’t think its been entirely the right who has been saying stupid shit. One glance at various tech blogs over the past week has shown a lot of…well, a misguided sense of optimism, I guess, by wannabe anarchist geeks who think V for Vendetta is a realistic political manifesto.
freelancer
Richard Engel is live on MSBNC right now. Pretty amazing live reporting.
gwangung
@Amanda in the South Bay: It’s easy to say stupid shit if ya don’t know shit.
That’s why I ain’t saying anything….
wobblybits
(Al Jazeera)
Amir_Khalid
@fasteddie9318:
Are you serious? Expelling another country’s ambassador is a step not far short of going to war. If Obama did this, the US would be left with no further means to influence the situation on Egypt at all. It would take many years to repair such a break in the relationship, during which the US would have no further recourse to Egypt as an ally.
stuckinred
@wobblybits: Engel is standing above the square and has a camera on it and, while there is gunfire, there isn’t “automatic heavy caliber gunfire”.
stuckinred
@Amir_Khalid: Let em babble, they have no idea what they are talking about,
wobblybits
@stuckinred: Well I guess Engel knows better.
Actually, I’m listening to AJ live and that is heavy automatic gunfire and you can hear the tanks rolling through.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Amir_Khalid:
Yeah, any tough guy action against Egypt needs to hurt the right people, and not destroy relations in the long term.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@hilts: Wow I’m with you there.
stuckinred
@wobblybits: There is gunfire but not as described. It may come. There is a tank putting up a smoke screen.
Suzdal
For live from Tahir reporting, that same producer is on Twitter @evanchill
Amanda in the South Bay
@stuckinred:
I think this is the problem with covering something like this with people who have tons of tech at their disposal. Yeah, its great that we have tons of eye witnesses using the internet to get stuff out, but eye witnesses have a bad habit (in just about any area of life) of being unreliable.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Amanda in the South Bay: @Amir_Khalid: What Amanda and Amir said.
stuckinred
Rachel is describing how loud the crowd is. If they start letting go with 50’s you’ll know it.
wobblybits
@stuckinred: You know this how? He is in one part of the square, where this feed is from, you can clearly hear automatic gun fire. But If Engel says it isn’t, I guess it isn’t.
ETA: I’m not picking a fight or anything with you.
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: All I am talking about is heavy caliber weapons. Engel now reports that they are firing AK’s. Many people would consider AK’s heavy caliber so I’ll let it be.
stuckinred
@wobblybits: Believe what you want, .
ETA, an AK or a “heavy caliber automatic weapon” would be heard from any part of the square.
wobblybits
@stuckinred: Ah,yeah the reporters here were referring to Ak’s
wobblybits
@stuckinred: I just saw that it was matter of definition as to what heavy artillery is, no need to be an ass :)
stuckinred
@wobblybits: Now you are talking about artillery. An AK is a 7.62 and considered small arms. A 50 cal is a “heavy automatic weapon”. Artillery is a cannon. These are different things. If that’s is being an ass sign me up.
wobblybits
@stuckinred: I meant more your comment that you edited (Believe what you want, I don’t give a shit)
With that, later
fasteddie9318
@Amir_Khalid:
At this point I don’t know what’s left to influence. Mubarak has either decided to tell the US to go fuck itself or the army has done it for him. The army brass, at this point, could take or leave Mubarak, but they’re damn sure not going to allow democratic reforms and they’re trying to leverage the violence to force the protesters to back off without damaging the army’s credibility.
The time it would take to repair the relationship would be exactly as long as it took Egypt to institute democratic elections with civilian control of the military.
As far as having “recourse to Egypt as an ally,” having the military regime as an ally has not exactly helped our image in the Arab world. They (the military regime) were a useful ally during the latter part of the Cold War and as a conduit between Israel and the other Muslim states, but I’m not sure they’re all that useful anymore.
But all that said, I agree that it would be going too far and retract the “I think we should do both” bit from what I wrote. I blame gastritis and, also too, posting just as the reports of live ammo being fired at the crowd started coming in.
Omnes Omnibus
@fasteddie9318: Gastritis is an acceptable excuse, but the other one sounds suspiciously like empathy and you know we just cannot have that.
Amir_Khalid
@fasteddie9318: Influence and alliances are not things you dispense with if you have an alternative. And an ally who has not been all that useful lately (which I rather doubt in Egypt’s case, since there must be more than diplomatic inertia that keeps your Uncle Sam sending all that military aid) might be needed again on short notice.
matoko_chan
@Zam:
aint happening.
this crackdown shit is just going to empower the Muslim Brotherhood.
1978 redux is what is gonna happen.
the army wont fire.
allahu akbar!
;)
eemom
I think it’s time for a thread where all the foreign policy experts post their predictions about how this is gonna come out. Whether Mubarek sticks around or not, and how many dead bodies on each side. For bonus points also explain how this differed from your prediction about Iran in 1979.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: The “Lawyer Up” thread got to you, huh?
Amir_Khalid
@fasteddie9318: And, as I was about to add when my edit time ran out, repairing any relationship after a major break, let alone one between two nations, takes more time than one side fixing the problem that led to the break. People can hold grudges for a good long time.
matoko_chan
BEEEG demostrations planned for friday.
relly big.
Mubarak is looking more and more like the Shah redux.
the Shah also didnt get the message until it was too late.
rikyrah
we give them, what, a billion and a half a year?
I don’t mean to be funny, but just exactly how was the WH supposed to
‘stay out of this’?
I’m asking honestly. I don’t see how any US President, not just this one, could realistically have ‘ stayed’ out of this?
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
As I mentioned the other day, it’s a good thing I don’t know much about the substance of most subjects that are discussed here, or I might find out that all the non-law-related stuff being said is also 98% ignorant blathery by people with no idea what the fuck they’re talking about.
“I wish the WH had stayed out of this” is not reassuring.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: Ah, Cole is doing his curmudgeon bit. Lily will do something cute and that will cheer him up until the Steelers lose on Sunday.
Scott de B.
In addition to all of the other reasons mentioned, Obama gave a major speech regarding engagement with the Muslim world in Cairo. Can’t expect him to turn his back on all that.
ogliberal
Here’s my guess on where this is going. The WH has stopped talking to Mubarak. They told him the deal – ie, time to leave…now. They are now dealing with the military. And they are telling the military that Mubarak has to go or you don’t get any more tanks and F-16s and suitcases full of cash. The military, in turn, is saying, “give us a few days”. The idealist in me wants this to end now. The realist tells me that the Egyptian army is going to allow the pro-Mubarak folks to show their true colors (and we’ll agree to give them this time), to earn the disgrace of the international community and the Egyptian people who haven’t chosen a side yet or who are too scared to do so. This would include rank-and-file member of the army. Sadly, some innocent folks will die or get seriously hurt. But the army won’t let it get truly out of hand – this will be controlled and heavily monitored chaos. The generals will then pay a visit to Mubarak, letting him know that he can either get on a plane to London ASAP or they will let their troops take a couple of days off, including those troops protecting the presidential palace. Mubarak isn’t stupid or crazy – he’ll split. And then the real transition, guided by the US-backed Egyptian military, will take place. Because Mubarak went over the top, the military “takeover” (with a guy like ElBaradei as its civilian face) won’t look like a coup or a power grab – it will look like honorable Egyptians protecting Egyptian citizens from violence and death. Won’t be pretty but probably the best to hope for.
The sad thing is that as cynical as what I wrote seems, I truly hope I’m right.
fasteddie9318
@Amir_Khalid:
I’m sure fear of a fundamentalist takeover helps keep that military aid flowing, not to mention the fact that Hosni is good enough to turn around and spend whatever military financing we give him on products made by our Galtian defense contractor overlords. But I suspect that diplomatic inertia is a big chunk, otherwise somebody would have smartened up to the fact that backing a repressive military dictatorship as a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism damages our reputation in the Middle East and thereby aids the fundamentalist cause. Or, on second thought, knowing how our government and our diplomatic corps works, maybe they wouldn’t have smartened up to it.
As I wrote above, I think our ability to influence this situation with words and threats, if there ever was any, is over. The focus in this whole process has been on whether Mubarak would leave, but all along the real problem has been that the army leadership was simply not going to allow any changes beyond the face they put on the regime.
A fair point, although a diplomatic break with Mubarak in the cause of a democratic Egypt (and it might not help that cause, but, hey, I don’t think what we’re doing is going to help either) might be relatively easier to repair if a democratic Egypt actually did emerge. But anyway as I wrote, I thought the better of that step. I still think we need to cut off aid, pronto. Whatever small portion of our aid to Egypt that is humanitarian will never make it to the protesters anyway.
freelancer
@matoko_chan:
This is not Iran ’79. It cannot be shouted loudly enough. Leave your “muja” bullshyte word salad to the Jihadis.
I love that you think that you could just join the Islamists and blend in, when in fact the MB would string you up as the biggest traitor of Mohammed ever, and use tape of you as agitprop to recruit more hapless kids to their nihilistic cause.
fasteddie9318
@ogliberal:
I would hope that El-Baradei would be too honorable to be used as the public face of a charade. What you’re describing, which I agree is the likely outcome, is simply a change in the thug at the top for a military dictatorship that has been in power since 1952. From Naguib to Nasser to Sadat to Mubarak to whomever. That’s not what these people are protesting for.
ogliberal
@fasteddie9318: The military, however, is not exactly close to Mubarak. They seem to be at least somewhat sympathetic to the protesters’ cause. And the protesters seem to a) respect them and b) turn to them for safety/relief/etc. Any transition without a foreign force (ie – the US/UN) intervening needs to be managed by some sort of organized body. The protesters are certainly heroic and patriotic but clearly not organized. While I don’t think the Muslim Brotherhood is the MB they were in the 60s and 70s or the bogeyman the right would have us believe, I don’t want them in charge of the transition either. That leaves us with the military. But it’s a military that saw firsthand the power of the people. And it’s also a military that we can guide via the purse. At this point Mubarak is a dead man walking (figuratively and perhaps literally if he sticks around much longer). He doesn’t care if we say “no more benjamins”. But the military does, hence, we can guide them in this transition. The question is – do you trust the Obama admin to force the military to actually help to manage a transition to true democracy (and while I think the MB will win seats in a free election, they won’t get the majority a la Hamas) or do you think they’ll just crown some other general as the new leader of Egypt?
Also note that I don’t think ElBaradei would be the face of a charade. He would be the civilian face of a temporary government run mostly by the military. You can go from Tahrir Square to free elections in a couple of weeks. I expect the army to respect the wishes of the protesters and their benefactors (ie – us) and allow a transition to a truly civilian government – maybe led by ElBaradei, maybe not…the votes will decide – after stability has been restored.
But perhaps that is very wishful thinking on my part. I think that after Mubarak is gone we can do a lot to make sure that happens without forcing a government upon the Egyptian people.
asiangrrlMN
@gwangung: Right there with you, bro. I am WAY out of my league on this one, but I do know that there was no way Obama could have sat this one out.
@hilts: You got it. On this, I have an opinion. They can just STFU because it’s not the fuck about them.
ogliberal
Previous post should have read, “You CAN’T go from Tahrir Square….”
And the all-caps are there to highlight my mistake, not to make an irrelevant Glenn Beck right-wing point.
4jkb4ia
The STFU brigade is doing well, but I would point out that the admin tried to say that this should be up to the Egyptian people themselves. Then they got overtaken by events and what seemed to be overwhelmingly the Egyptian people telling Mubarak to get out–i.e. the Egyptian people seemed to have made a choice. If the protests keep going in face of the violence they will be vindicated.
And this really is my last click on this site for today. Maybe I can stay away for a few days.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@mediumtex: Yeah, because the way to prove you’re really on the side of freedom and democracy is to talk about raping people.
Yes, even in jest.
ogliberal
@asiangrrlMN: But the WH press corps wants to be part of history…to hell with keeping stuff temporarily confidential out of diplomatic need and respect for the safety of the protesters and those Egyptians who can help us get Mubarak out ASAP.
After reading that whine you have to respect the Al Jazeera folks and, yes, Anderson Cooper, much more than the press room douchebags. They’re there getting smacked around by Mubarak thugs while the Halperin/Tapper crew is hanging out bitching in the basement of the West Wing in between discussions about what Georgetown bar they’re going to go to tonight.
fasteddie9318
@ogliberal: I just don’t see how you can turn to the military to manage a transition away from rule by the military. What’s their incentive to actually do any transitioning? They’ve got no particular loyalty to Mubarak at this point, but there are miles of space between a willingness to let Mubarak go and a willingness to permit democratic reforms that would include civilian control of the military.
In my view the protesters’ respect for and reliance upon the military is rooted in the military’s carefully cultivated image as an honest broker, where they’ve allowed Mubarak to play the evil autocrat while they pretend to have nothing to do with governing the country, when in fact Mubarak is just the public face on a military regime. That image is belied by the fact that the army permits these “pro-Mubarak” (in the sense that I’d be “pro-Koch brothers” if they shoveled enough cash at me) forces to assault the protesters with some serious firepower while pretending to remain calmly above the fray. This is being managed to produce a public sentiment in favor of military intervention even as Mubarak individually is reviled and removed from office (as though he were not entirely a product of the military). Then they can simply exchange one strongman for another and go on as they have been for 60 years.
As you say, the military has seen the power of the people, but that hasn’t been enough to sway them. American aid offers Obama some leverage to use, but I have my doubts as to whether they’d use it and, if they did, whether even that would be enough. I think the army views this movement as an existential threat, so even cutting off their aid might not be enough to get them to move the way we’d like.
matoko_chan
@freelancer: lotsa isomorphism with the fall of the American puppet Shah, from what i’ve read in the history books.
And the Brothers ARE going to take the majority of seats in a free and fair election. Just like Hizb’ has a majority in Leb, like Erdogan’s AKP has the majority in Turkey, like the Dawa Party in Iraq.
When muslims are democratically empowered to vote they vote for moar Islam, not less, and NEVAH for westernstyle jeebus democracy.
consent of the governed.
:)
hahaha
why would i do that? sure, ima muslimah, but…..
im an american girl.….a MUSLIM American girl.
freedom of religion dude.
sukk it.
:)
fasteddie9318
@ogliberal:
I’d respect Anderson more if his down time between these really big stories, where he can be pretty decent, weren’t so often spent chasing the latest kidnapped white girl or celebrity scandal.
Cacti
@rikyrah:
“Staying out of this” was unpossible.
Mubarak has been a US client since President Obama was college student Obama.
He’s had to walk a knife’s edge of not throwing a client regime under the bus and at the same time, not opposing peaceful assembly for the redress of grievances. No easy task.
I think Mubarak made a strategic error in unleashing the blackshirt “counter protesters”. He’s now given his erstwhile “allies” cover for distancing themselves from him.
ogliberal
@mediumtex: You do fucking realize that about the last thing the protesters want is a bunch of white dudes showing up chanting “Semper Fi!” and “Hoo-Rah!” and waving the American flag showing up as backup. You also realize that this would be an unbelievable fucking nightmare for our country.
Oh…I forgot…WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!
ogliberal
@fasteddie9318: True, very true. But at least he puts his ass on the line when the shit goes down. He’ll alway be “the liberal media” to the keyboard commandos but he’s getting smacked around in Tahrir Square and walking around in toxic water in post-Katrian NoLa while fellow CNNers like Erick son of Erick sit back here stateside talking about how tough they’d be if they only had the chance. And how much worse are Anderson’s missing white girl stories in comparison to the process, POLITICO, Drudge-bait bullshit the WH press corps spews out on a daily basis.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@ogliberal: I think the role of the Egyptian military is more complex that a simple Junta Corps or whatever little wee box some folks (not you) want to throw all these events into.
I’ve read a report that the US Military is using their contacts to help. Keep in mind we do more with those billions than just send weapons over. We’ve been training, building alliances, etc. with the Egyptian Military for decades now. The report was that quiet back-channel discussions from our military to theirs might be helping.
Maybe. These things are never certain. And we’re screwed this up dozens of times before.
Why in secret? No military in the world, esp. one in that region, is insane enough to look like it’s kow-towing to the US. Talking about that in front of the White house Press Corps would be a major disaster, and back-fire. The most you’ll get is the constant ref. in Obama’s statements to the “professionalism of the Egyptian military,” which is a reminder, according to this theory, from us to them that we are watching, and that real money and support is on the table, now.
That’s not a defense of past actions, nor of the policy. That’s not even a guess, just supposition and rumor. But I do think these things are far more like icebergs that we realize in the heat of the moment, and the history that eventually comes out seems to bear that true. I do strongly suspect there’s a lot more under-the-counter leverage than we know about — but it never is enough when you’re trying to play “by the rules”. We don’t own Mubarak, and 2+ billion a year really is chump change when stakes are this high for him.
And I didn’t vote for another round of trying to play Regime Change Roulette.
Caz
We shouldn’t be giving any aid to Egypt in the first place. Giving money to any of these muslim countries is a very serious error, not to mention that with our current financial problems, we can’t afford to be giving away money to ANY other countries.
We should eliminate the $50 billion in foreign aid and only revisit this practice once our own financial house is in order. While there are millions of people in our own country who are in need, I can’t fathom that we would take money from our own citizens (through taxes) and give it away to foreign citizens when many of our own people are in desperate need of assistance. It’s totally bass ackwards.
But I guess it makes us feel good to give away billions of dollars each year to people who really don’t give a crap about our own state of affairs. So I guess that feeling of do-goodness makes it all worth it!
But if we’re really committed to our war on islamic terrorists, why would we give any money to muslim countries where our very enemies take up residence?? And don’t tell me we’re giving to the gov’t and the terrorists don’t get their hands on it, because most of these countries are so corrupt anyway that there’s no way to ensure the money stays out of evil hands. It pains me to think that some of the IED’s that our military personnel are being injured and killed by are in part subsidized by our very own gov’t.
But then, I’m a realist, not an idealist, so there’s probably no place for my opinion on this site.
fasteddie9318
@ogliberal: That’s the thing though; when the shit hits the fan, AC shows that he’s better than “missing white girl” stories. He could be doing commendable work shedding light on stories nobody is talking about, but he opts for the perceived ratings draw. Maybe that’s CNN and I’m being too hard on him.
On the other hand, Politico is shit and will never be anything but shit, so the expectations are lower. As Grampy said recently, “garbage in, garbage out.” He was lying about the CBO when he said that, but I think the sentiment is very applicable to Politico and the WH press corpse.
matoko_chan
from the Brothers feed.
fasteddie9318
@Caz: Tea party troll is going to a tea party?
matoko_chan
@Caz:
wallah, you’re a naif. We pay tyrants to make nice with Our Crazy Ex-Girlfriend Israel…and that is all we give damn about. We dont give a shit about what they do their citizens. Mubarak has been imprisoning, beating, torturing AND SODOMIZING students, bloggers, journalists, professors, and his political opposition for decades.
America looked the other way for 30 years.
Now we get our big fat american noses rubbed in what we paid for.
asiangrrlMN
@ogliberal: I agree. They want to make the news, not report it. They disgust me.
matoko_chan
Some arabic for the fans.
Do you know what dawa means? The Dawa party is Maliki’s shi’ia islamic party, the majority party in Iraq.
It means remedy, the cure.
Think about how similar that is to the Muslim Brotherhoods motto.
hahaha.
Suffern ACE
@mediumtex: Yes, but…well its a nice thought, but I’m thinking those thugs might also be civilians (and probably cops, as well) so when the Marines threaten to shoot or actually shoot people armed with clubs and rocks, when at the moment no one appears to be peaceful any longer, what good does it do to shoot the civilians? Our marines would be there to disperse the protesters, because that’s what “security forces” do. Since the army of Egypt isn’t shooting anyone (yet, or much, reports vary), why would we shoot their citizens?
freelancer
@matoko_chan:
As-Salamu Alaykum, child. I have little wish to demolish what you believe. I’m an atheist, and yet, as an American, I cherish our First Amendment more than any other American value. We have WAAAAAY more in common than that which separates us, yet, even now, I feel like I have a tangible sense of your patriotism and loyalty to this country.
Peace be with you,
Nick.
ogliberal
@matoko_chan: Also, while I don’t like the fact that we’ve been paying Egypt what amounts to ransom money to not pull another 1973 or that we give Israel even more to defend themselves against another 1973 (against which they did pretty well on their own), the amount of money we spend on foreign aid – minus Iraq and Afghanistan (a relatively recent occurrence…and one fully supported by conservative Americans) – amounts to less than 1% of GDP. It’s a red herring, just like the dreaded “PORK”. Eliminate it and we do virtually nothing re: the deficit or our economy. I love how these tiny amounts of spending – v. say defense spending or SS and Medicare benefits for old white folks – is all the tea party folks can talk about. Cut my taxes and reduce the deficit…but only by cutting the less than 5% of GDP spending that I don’t like because it mostly benefits brown folks and foreigners. Gotta love it, huh?
fasteddie9318
@ogliberal: AFAIK, true “foreign aid” (non-military) amounts to less than half a percent of the federal budget, let alone the GDP.
asiangrrlMN
@freelancer: You are a kind-heated man, Nick.
Because I can and because it’s the end of the thread so no one will see it anyway, I’m hoping for Generous Peace at the end of this road.
freelancer
@asiangrrlMN:
I meant it, but there was just a pinch of snark there. I can’t be 100% awesome all the time.
matoko_chan
@ogliberal: we have been paying Mubarak to starve Gaza. the blockade, membah?
@freelancer: la hawla wala quwata illah billah. im just sickened by what my country has become. and by all you clowns pretending. you make me sick. America is just the latest instance of Big White Christian Bwana. is that patriotism?
asiangrrlMN
@freelancer: To me, the pinch of snark makes it even better.
freelancer
@matoko_chan:
I was born in 1982. I think American military misadventures abroad have resulted in negative consequences since before I was born. We haven’t regained the high ground since the Korean War, but in the six decades since, the world and the human species has changed so much in contrast to the six millennia preceding that old paradigms (aka the traditional conception of “Nations” or ancient religions) are losing their relevance, post haste.
I was born an ethnically identified white, Irish, English, Polish, German Catholic American.
Now I get to choose the roles that identify with me. I choose secular values that the American government best protects. I am a human before I am anything else. As such, I see that in other people before I see anything else. I see the human need to LIVE, and not just subsist, but to thrive and exist with Dignity. That motivation crosses all boundaries in our species, and I have no need to attribute its origin to Allah, and if Allah watches over us, I think, as the alleged Creator of all things seen and unseen, Allah would understand, and would forgive my opinion.
If He does not, Allah isn’t worthy of anyone’s worship.
Peace.
ogliberal
@matoko_chan: Let me clarify – I don’t like the fact that we’ve been paying Israel and Egypt ransom money for the last 30+ years just so they don’t go to war with each other again. Don’t like it at all. While the dollar numbers are relatively small I think it sends a bad message, limits our options when the shite hits the fan (see, Egypt, today) and gives certain lobbyists too much power. My point is that when you ask Americans what spending they want to eliminate to cut taxes and reduce the deficit, the #1 candidate, per Gallup, is “foreign aid”. Yet that “foreign aid”, however poorly spent – at least related to Israel and Egypt – amounts to virtually nothing. It’s an easy target – like “pork” (and all the deficit peacocks hate pork…unless it benefits their district/state) but not a serious one. Eliminating it would be politically and diplomatically painful but it wouldn’t do a damned thing to help our economy or reduce our deficit because it’s virtually pennies v. the other things we spend money one. (which largely includes good things like Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid and defense spending, some of which is good and necessary but a lot of of which is pure waste)
El Cid
@ogliberal: Overall budget wise, no doubt.
The thing is, so many nations have had their destinies determined by the US by what is, for us, a dropped pebble, and what is, for them, a landslide.
The US support for the Salvadoran death squad regime throughout the ‘civil war’ probably cost less than a billion dollars in direct ‘aid’. Maybe a bit more. Or less.
Doubtless it’s a relative measure, a foreign policy outlay in budget terms vs impact.
hilts
@freelancer:
What did Ed Schutz say tonite to make a fool out of himself and who were you referring to in a another thread about a reporter complaining about Obama for not giving the MSM enough access to their deliberations concerning Egypt?
hilts
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: How is President Obama doing on Egypt?
NEWT GINGRICH: I don’t think they have a clue. I think it is very frightening to watch this administration.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: Would anybody?
NEWT GINGRICH: Reagan would have. Reagan would have had — Reagan would have thought about and studied radical Islam and Reagan would have had a strategy and would have pursued it. He didn’t do that in the 80s some are going to want to complain for a practical reason. Reagan had one foreign policy goal in the 1980s, defeat the Soviet Union. He didn’t divert himself because he wanted to defeat the Soviet Union.
h/t http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/2/2/940707/-Gingrich-on-Egypt-and-Ronald-Reagan
ogliberal
@hilts: REAGAN SMASH!
Plus, Reagan used radical Islam in his attempt to defeat the evil commies.
The Reagan mythology drives me fucking bananas. The neo-cons at the time – Newt’s soon-to-be buds – we’re calling him a sell-out because he dared to speak to Gorbachev about arms reductions. They hated him, felt like he betrayed them. Richard Perle duped Dutch into blowing his big chance by convincing the probably Alzheimer’s=ridden chief (see Ron Jr’s new memoirs) that space lasers could result in the end of nuclear arms as we know it. Perle knew it was all bullshit – he just didn’t want a deal and knew that missile defense was something Gorbachev couldn’t bring back to his folks at the Kremlin. Perle didn’t do this because he respected Reagan – he did it because he didn’t trust him.
ogliberal
And another thing. Newt thinks he’s the smartest fucker in the room. He probably resented Reagan, probably thought he was just a second-rate actor who could deliver a good speech and didn’t know shit. Still, he turns him into the second coming of Churchill. Reagan didn’t study shit. All he knew was Red (ie – snooty, elitist Hollywood Jews who smothered my true acting genius) bad – Republicans good.
hilts
@ogliberal:
Newt Gingrich is starting to sound as dumb as Sarah Palin.
Bubblegum Tate
@hilts:
Jesus fucking christ. wingnuts:Reagan::Bill Swersky’s Superfans:Ditka
ogliberal
i@Bubblegum Tate: I’ll take medium-sized Reagan over jumbo-Mubarak or mega-Muslim Brotherhood any day.
Can we get Tiny Elvis into the mix?
Suffern ACE
@ogliberal: Oh for crying out loud. We dropped bombs on Libya and sent troops and battleships to Lebanon because of our single minded focus on the Soviets?
ogliberal
@Suffern ACE: I’m not quite sure what you are questioning me about…or implying about me. I’m clearly not defending Newt or Reagan, if that’s what you think I’m doing.
We dropped bombs on Libya and occupied Lebanon because that’s what Reagan’s neo-con advisors told him to do. And while that had more to do with Israel than the Soviets, I’m sure they convinced themselves in their mind – like Glenn Beck today – that somehow the Islamic fundamentalist and the godless commies at the Kremlin were in bed together.
Suffern ACE
@ogliberal: I’m not crying at you. I’m crying at…oh, I don’t know. Newt shilling a hypothetical based on revisionist history of stuff that happened while I was actually alive and there was still a semi-functioning press corp. I’m just crying like I always do.
If only Obama would realize that the problem is Islam and call this a war so he could stay focused, he’d clearly know what to do in a situation that is nine days old.
Malron
I think openly stating that Mubarak should listen to the will of the people was the right move.
Ranger 3
@ogliberal: And I have read more than a few liberal rants about how our Zionist overlords are calling the shots in Cairo and how this struggle isn’t between various Egyptian power centers but in fact between the dirty Jew bankers (who control the media) and the oppressed workers (long live the revolution).
People are projecting like motherfuckers onto a conflict that they can’t begin to understand. I suppose the folks who imagine that the protestors are angry about Obamacare are slightly more retarded than the ones who think Mossad agents are riding around Cairo on camels… but it’s a close call.
This isn’t about the neurosis of American political junkies, left or right. It’s about a power struggle in Egypt between a complex array of power coalitions, none of whom are especially virtuous… and it is unlikely to end well.
CaliCat
This crisis reminds me of the oil spill in that the people who are criticizing Obama’s handling of it have no idea themselves what he should do instead. The truth is, there are no clear or obvious answers right now.
CaliCat
@Malron:
I completely agree.
Suffern ACE
@CaliCat: Oh, he should look presidential and scare us about something. Thats what they want.
ogliberal
And then I read this and wonder if my assessment above wasn’t really cynical but naive and that what is happening now truly is tragic:
http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/02/game_over_the_chance_for_democracy_in_egypt_is_lost
Fuck.
ogliberal
@Ranger 3: Yup. See my link to the FP piece above. Not happy stuff.
matoko_chan
@freelancer:
Lie. America is just the 20th century version of Big White Christian Bwana. We dont live in Martin Luther Kings country– we live in Martin Luthers nation. He was never for the separation of church and state, he just wanted the separation of THE OTHER GUYS CHURCH from the state.
You are naive.
WE HAVE NO SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS IN EGYPT.
We suborned ourselves by propping a tyrant for 30 years.
20% is pretty damn good for a banned party.
The MB will be the majority.
And we did that by lying to ourselves.
matoko_chan
@freelancer: ARE YOU RELLY THIS FUCKING STUPID?
how did we “protect those fantasy secular values” for the egyptian people for the last THIRTY FUCKING YEARS you stupid fucking cudlip?
if the Egyptians want to elect the egyption nazi party they HAVE FUCKING EARNED THE RIGHT and we can’t say boo, because we are fucking liars.
America BUILT THE MB, just like it BUILT OBL and Hamas and Hizb’ and the Taliban.
If islamism is the father of resistance then America is the father of terrorism.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@matoko_chan: Ah, matoko. Cussing out for thee, but not for me?
@Ranger 3:
It’s amazing how much projection goes into this business. “Obama must stand with protestors!” edges on America-as-policeman, America as regime changer, only this time we’re doing it on a side that some liberals (and, to be fair, conservatives) think is “right”.
But it’s still, all too often, coming off as playing American politics by proxy.
matoko_chan
@freelancer:
more cudlip bullshytt. arent you sick of the taste of feedlot drench in your mouth yet?
The Prophet famously said, a nation can survive without god, but a nation cannot exist without justice.
America is an unjust nation. we lie to ourselves, oppress the poor and the powerless, and force our culture and our WEC mores and taboos on the rest of the world in the name of “freedom”.
The yawm al din is coming, and the veil will be rent. American global hegemony is dying. Big White Christian Bwana is finally going to get his ass handed to him.
and there will be justice.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@matoko_chan: OK, 3 days ago you were claiming the Brotherhood would get voted in because “Egypt is 90% Muslim”.
Now you’re claiming it’s because of the US propping up Mubarak.
I’m lost. And I know you’ve scripted me out of your comments view here, but really, this is beyond the pale.
matoko_chan
i dropped a safe on aisangirl too, freelancer, so im not getting your snark subtext.
tant pis.
:)
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@matoko_chan: From Juan Cole, someone you claimed to be using as a source for your commentary:
I have problems with the poll (it’s mostly urban Egyptians, as I understand it), and with some of Cole’s analysis — but again, he knows the region far better than I.
However, Cole’s post is worth reading in full for a primer as to the many players, and their interrelationships, in Egyptian politics and culture.
RP
It’s really too bad there’s no “ignore” button on this blog.
Brighton
Obama and Hillary failed with Honduras and Haiti, playing it safe and backing the fascists. If we crush this proud uprising to keep Israel happy, then we completely suck.
my post here
matoko_chan
@RP: write your own dumbass. unless you are too fucking stupid to do that.
cuz thats what i did.
i call it my maya angelou filter.
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn– SMASH!
and a cartoon safe falls on RP’s head, just like in the Black Sun Cafe in the Metaverse.
byeeee!
Bubblegum Tate
@ogliberal:
Don’t forget a team of mini-Reagans!
Brachiator
The US would be blamed no matter what. And since Egypt is a US ally, we’re in it anyway.
matoko_chan
@Brachiator: we are responsible. why shouldn’t we be blamed?
we DIDNT FUCKING CARE as long as the Israelis got to starve Gaza and the oil flowed.
fucking hypocritical cudlips lowing and braying about democracy.
you wouldn’t know democracy if it bit you in the fat white judeochristian ass.
RP
@matoko_chan: I don’t understand — why are you wasting your time posting on this blog instead of fighting the good fight in Gaza and Cairo?
matoko_chan
Sandmonkey
We did this. Americans did this. Own it juicers.
genghisjon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dR9dAZRyhE&feature=player_embedded
genghisjon
should of added this is just nuts.o/t haveing hell of a time with comppatibility view ,any help?
Cain
@matoko_chan:
We’ll ignore matoko chan’s editorialzing.. and I’ll add mine instead:
That my friends is the real jihad as I think envisioned in the Koran. The act of struggling against oneself, and to struggle for others.
Ride, son of Egypt. I hope the winds of justice ride at your back.
cain
matoko_chan
@Cain:
cuz America sure dont gotcher back.
Americans didnt give a fuck about Mubaraks police beating, imprisoning, raping, and torturing students, journalists, professors, clerics, political dissidents as long as Israel got to starve Gaza and the oil kept flowing.
you’re another dumb cudlip lowing about freedom while baring your throat for the jackboot.
assclown.
you know fuck all about jihad.
and all you need to know about the Qu’ran is that defense against proselytization is coded right into it, and that Islam is the most successful CSS on the planet right naow.
bi la kayfah
THE
@matoko_chan:
I think there’s some serious downside risk there that you are overlooking.
Financial analyst, David Goldman’s article states it nicely here, in his “Spengler” persona.
The final section Wheat prices 101 and Egyptian instability is particularly germane.
matoko_chan
@THE: merde….you cite that old nutbag eurabia shouter to me?
AGW, world hunger, peak oil, population demographics, and Wikileaks are all combining for the perfect storm.
a global revolution against Big White Christian Bwana.
THE
Nevertheless, he is still a fine financial analyst, even if you don’t like his politics.
Did you even read the article, particularly the charts and stuff at the end?
You are dead wrong if you think the poorest nations aren’t going to be the biggest losers in any general global economic decline.
Edit: Besides the dynamic he’s identifying is not the West vs the rest, it is China out-competing the rest of the developing world for access to food.