Spent most of the day on the road, and as such, listening to NPR, which means I have had it up to here with Japan coverage. Every second of reporting is like being repeatedly kicked in the junk, the news is so awful. And as someone who supports nuclear power, can we please agree to not build reactors on fault lines?
And wtf- the last I heard they are trying to flood one of the cores with a riot police water gun. That’s the fucking back-up plan?
Radon Chong
Pretty sure that IS the backup plan. Or more like the backup-backup-backup plan.
Calouste
It’s not as much the back-up plan as the “let’s try whatever shit might work” plan. I think they ran out of back-up plans within 24 hours of the earthquake, at least if you mean with that plans that were drawn up before the catastrophe.
MikeTheZ
You know, when I hear our government saying something totally different then the Japanese govt about the state of their reactors, I find myself remembering that our government is bought and paid for by oil companies…
Just a thought…
Juanuchis
While the situation in Japan is heartbreaking and worrying (understatement), and the unrest in the Middle East remains newsworthy, I’m more than a tad cheesed that NPR has dismissed further reporting on the Wisconsin protests and similar that have spread to other states. Just sayin’.
Been readin’ Balloon Juice for a short time and this here’s my first post. Hi there.
RalfW
@Radon Chong: Yep. My thought too.
Back-back-backup at this point is duck and cover.
Roger Moore
That’s not a backup plan. That’s a desperate improvisation, the kind of thing you come up with after the plans, backup plans, and sensible improvisations have all failed. They’re down to doing anything they can think of with whatever they have in the vain hope it will do some good.
celticdragonchick
The invisible hand of the market place will put the fires out and clean up the cesium 137 and strontium 90.
Or something like that.
Francis
When I found out that the storage pools for the used fuel rods were on the third floor, I was … surprised.
I understand about needing multiple backup systems to keep the core cool. But do you really need to impose the obligation on yourself to pump water uphill three stories to keep the storage pool cool as well? What ever happened to using gravity as your friend, and putting the storage pool underground?
Mike (Hammer) Kay
Actually, they’re filling up some waterballoons and bringing Dice-K back to lob them in.
RalfW
@MikeTheZ: And yet, the CEO of GE has some special chairmanship of some presidential blue-ribbon whatchahoozit. And GE/Obama wanted (till about noon today) to sell a few babagazillion dollars of GE nuke plants to India.
Best laid plans and all that…
celticdragonchick
@MikeTheZ:
Our government is telling US citizens to get the fuck away from the area…oil company influence or not.
Nied
Some copypasta that I just posted in mistermix’s Congress and Regulators post from this morning:
As for why so many take the binary position that it’s Nuclear or fossil fuels, that comes from a simple hard look at the numbers, and right now renewables just aren’t capable of fully replacing fossil based sources, and building a few more wind farms or solar plants won’t be able to cut it. We’re talking an order of magnitude deficiency here and that’s at current usage rates, it just gets worse when you factor in population growth in the future. So I doubt you’ll find many nuclear proponents argue against renewables (I certainly don’t) but we’ve done the math and there has to be something else thrown in if we’re going to meet our needs, nuclear just happens to be the least pie-in-the-sky option out there.
Cermet
At least they have a plan … might cost a lot of workers and fire crews their lives, but it has, maybe, some chance of success and … well, really don’t have any ideas.
Damn, those people are brave hero’s that are standing in harms way and even protecting us, too. That is bravery that I don’t know if I could do – amazing people.
Maybe the paid troll “pig”(s, and spiders) can continue to insult them here on this thread.
steviez314
I heard the backup plan was a bukkake party.
Roger Moore
@MikeTheZ:
And the Japanese government is trying to avoid causing a panic. So far, the people who have said things are under control have been consistently wrong and the ones who have said things are going to shit have been right.
Sorter Roger: Our government isn’t the only one that lies.
celticdragonchick
@Francis:
I was wondering about that as well. Who the hell thought it made sense to put the cooling pools well above ground and outside all of the primary containment structure?
celticdragonchick
@steviez314:
That was rather uncalled for.
kingtoots
I just talked to a relative of mine who worked on designing Canada’s Heavy Water Reactor, CANDU.
He thinks things are pretty grim. He thinks that the reason that the decay heat isn’t decreasing that fast is because the control rods didn’t go all the way in and so the pile is still working at some percentage. He suspects that the earthquake bent the pile which prevented the control rods from moving from where they were at the time of the earthquake or prevented them from going further than where the bend is preventing complete shutdown as is supposed to happen. He is speculating but I think it has the ring of truth to it.
He bases this on a similar problem that they had with a small research reactor where the pile bent and they couldn’t move the control rod. Fortunately, in HW reactors you can shut everything down by REMOVING most of the water. The CANDU was designed to fail safe and doesn’t have a sustaining reaction without the Heavy Water.
If he is right then they will never be able to shut the piles down. He doesn’t really know what people are going to do there short of burying it under concrete.
The fortunate thing is that the reaction products are quite heavy so it is extremely unlikely that they they will get into the wind and get to North America. Sucks to be Japanese however.
Don’t bother buying Iodine and Geiger counters, unless you are into that sort of thing, and don’t bother booking a flight to Japan for the next few decades.
Going fission,
Kingtoots.
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
A nuclear reactor can still get hit with a big fuckin’ wave, even if it’s not on a fault line. So you might want to ask that we don’t build reactors too close to the ocean. Or in a tornado zone. Or hurricane zone. Or…
Well, you get the picture. There really aren’t a lot of safe-in-the-long-term places to build a reactor.
.
JoyousMN
The backup plan is the same one BP used. Keep throwing shit at it and hope something works. I’m reminded again that “hope is not a plan.”
As far as the workers in the plant, this is what I posted today:
I feel like I’m watching a slow-motion horror movie. Each action may seem like the logical next step, but when you look at the whole picture, and what they are asking of these people, it seems unconscionable and unforgivable.
Those 50 workers, no matter how willing, should not have to take all the brunt of this tragedy. Perhaps the owners should also take a turn in the hot zone. Share the benefit, share the cost.
Cermet
For the paid trolls who soon will be here (or are), I’ll leave these questions from the thread to ponder and come up with lies:
American reactors can not be made safe from coolant lost – and since they use boron in the coolant, the reactor’s steel is often destroyed by this. Any lost in the main primary system means melt down. Again, a lose lose system that can’t be fixed.
As I agree with others, nuke is a way to go but one should consider the less expensive and incredibly safe Canadian reactor or the CANDU. Has issues (nuclear waste, and produces radioactive gases like all the plants do (ever notice all reactors have smoke stacks? Never thought about it, did you?) but at least a melt down due to coolant failure is not one of them.))
No American reactor is even remotely economical and both taxpayers and ratepayers foot this extra bill so stock holders and CEO laugh all the way to the bank!
If American reactors were so safe, why are not they, instead of US taxpayers footing the lion’s share of all liability – see if any of the paid trolls here want to address these facts – you’ll see them not address them but shiver round them like the snakes they are.
Reply
RalfW
@Nied: Dick Cheney has done a number on all of us not living in California. Energy efficiency is not just for sweater-queen peanut farmers. California has made massive improvements in energy user per citizen. The rest of the nation has barely bothered to turn off a light bulb.
Conservation won’t solve our problems, but it really is an effective tool – among many that may include moderate use of US nukes – to get us where we need to be.
Of course, this sort of wonky policy-based problem solving only works if the Amerikan right has a collective, massive stroke and dies.
Roger Moore
@celticdragonchick:
Outside the primary containment structure is a good idea. If the cooling pool were inside the primary containment, a problem there could spread to the reactor or vice versa. Better protection for the cooling pool would be good, but putting it inside the primary containment structure is not the way to do it.
Arclite
@steviez314: Yeah, but when that stuff boils off, the smell is nasty.
Nellcote
ps. it’s now snowing in Japan.
Nied
I should add to any who wish to dispute my assertion: I’m on my third Bourbon Old Fashioned with no plans to stop, so my replies will become increasingly incoherent as the night goes on.
Comrade Mary
From the Wiki article on water cannons:
I don’t know if the specific water cannons on site right now match these specs, or just how much water would be reasonably needed to control a core or fill a pool, but it’s a WAG at the quantity available.
Cermet
@kingtoots: I think the CANDU is another way Canadians are getting even with us in the US – first a great single payer Gov run health care system, then stripping their northern forest to give us cheap oil, and now, worse of all, a really safe nuclear reactor – not fair.
Mark S.
@Francis:
That sounded crazy to me as well.
@Roger Moore:
I understand not wanting a panic, but the government has been wrong in about all of their statements.
I just had a frightening thought, what if Bush were in charge of a catastrophe like this? We’d be finding out he had stacked the nuclear safety commission with creationists and abstinence-only educators.
The Dangerman
We could always surround it with a bunch of frat boys, hold a kegger, and let nature take its course.
RalfW
@JoyousMN:
The movie seemed a bit overwrought when I watched it with my dad this past October, but I get flashes now of the horror of the guys going in to their deaths in the reactor disaster on the Soviet K-19 sub. Just makes me shudder.
dlnelson
At least you get the option of NPR, all of my am stations are right wingers, the hate is so pure, the double entendres, (sorry spelling), are immense. My fm dial does not work. We have Beck, Limpboy, dr savage, etc. We have no choice, the amount of dumb we have here in Sac Cty is insane. Hang in there, I also get a bit down. The fight must go on. Ask yourself why all of the media is owned by the 27 percent. Is is corporate or grass roots. I know it is corporate. Eat a great bowl of soup, some french bread, and relax. It will take some time to fix this corporate mess, watch what is happening in Wisconsin. This will be fixed. I am from MN, and you do not mess with the real folks.
Arclite
@JGabriel:
I think ten feet of reinforced concrete can withstand a hurricane or tornado.
Comrade Mary
Cermet, would it make you feel any better to know about this?
Arclite
@Nellcote: Yeah, radioactive snow. In Fukushima.
Cassidy
Junk Shot Baby!
David Koch
“No Nukes” is music to my ear and money in my pocket.
Tim F.
Fun fact of the day: when oil becomes something other than a cheap, ubiquitous commodity the incredible supply chains that keep nuclear reactors safe will no longer be there. Plus, most of our reactors and their spent fuel need constant supervision or else they will explode. We have a lot of reactors.
The good news: our post-oil future will be a golden age for rapid evolution! I can’t wait for my descendants to debate what ye olde days were like with their hedgehog classmates.
Comrade Mary
Huh. I’ll try again. I used a forbidden word in the previous attempt.
Cermet, would it make you feel any better to know about this?
Cassidy
fix ed
srv
How did the Soviets build a sarcophagus around the Cherynobl reactor while it was still emitting?
Could they bomb just the storage pool areas and disperse that material around? Without hurting the reactor, of course. Better than letting the stored stuff go critical.
DarrenG
@Arclite:
The ten feet of reinforced concrete withstood the earthquake and tsunami, too.
The problem is that the power supplies, backup generators, pumps, fuel rod storage bunkers, and a bunch of other Important Shit didn’t.
JPL
A helicopter just dropped water on the number 3 reactor.
WaterGirl
I have stayed away from most of the Japan threads because it’s all so upsetting. But I just read the This is Awful post by mistermix, just the post, not the comments, and I feel literally sick to my stomach. 16 seconds for a lethal dose.
Now I am thinking of the book On the Beach, which had a huge impact on me when I first read it decades ago. The thought that some people may soon be living the reality of that book just sickens me. Excuse me while I go rock in the corner now.
srv
NHK live: SDF helicopter dropping water on #3. More enroute.
Comrade Mary
Helicopters have dumped water on #3, says NHK World.
EDIT: Apparently a second load 6 minutes later, but less concentrated.
Roger Moore
@Cassidy:
Distinction without a difference.
Steeplejack
@Juanuchis:
Welcome to the zoo. I remember the trembling fear with which I clicked “Submit” on my first comment.
kingtoots
@Comrade Mary: I don’t think anyone is saying that CANDU is completely safe, just that it FAILS SAFE (i.e. doesn’t melt down).
Warmest Regards,
The Dangerman
@Cassidy:
Seems reasonable, but if we use Dick Cheney and he mutates even more…
different church-lady
If it isn’t a fault line, it’s something else we’re not thinking about yet.
I ain’t one of those people who thinks we should shut down the grid and run around in loincloths, but some things just ain’t worth doing, no matter how “low” the risk is.
magurakurin
Just watched them dump water from a chopper onto Reactor 3. Not impressed. Additionally, I’m wondering how much of the “the Japanese are lying” has to do with language. On NHK, the Japanese Public Broadcaster, the announcer said, in plain Japanese, the reactors and spent fuel pools lack sufficient water to cool the material and if they aren’t cooled it will lead to steam explosions and a release of radiation. They continue to state over and over that the situation is very dire. Seems pretty clear to me. Is it because Japanese people don’t go into convulsions like Americans that everyone thinks the people here are being lied to?
Mr Stagger Lee
I was listening to Thom Hartmann show today, and at least two times, there seemed, there was some seminar callers defending the nuke industry or downplaying the dangers of nukes. And all of the sudden France is now the darlings of the Wingnuts, because they energy needs is supplied by nukes, but I suspect French standards are higher than American, and they do screw around with regulations as well as personnel
JGabriel
@Arclite:
I’m sure similar reassurances were given by the developers of the Fukushima reactors regarding earthquakes and tsunamis. And by the developers of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, regarding human error.
.
Comrade Mary
@kingtoots: Hey, I’m in Toronto and I’m not even sprinkling extra iodized salt on my veggies. But I agree that the day to day operation of the CANDU is pretty solid. Now if we could just deal with storage properly, I’d be happier.
John O
@Arclite:
Nothing man made can withstand a serious blast of Mother Nature. Full stop.
MikeJ
Watching the helicopters (which aren’t laughing btw) drop water, it just doesn’t look like that much.
JPL
Yesterday they aborted the mission to dump water because of health risks. I think that they are no longer considering the health risks of the pilots but rather the health risks of the country.
Does anyone know if this will help?
Left Coast Tom
Where else are California’s plants supposed to be built?
That’s OK though, plants can always be seismically retrofitted by using backwards blueprints.
What could go wrong?
Chris Wolf
Rubber bullets?
Nied
@RalfW:
You’re telling this to someone who up until two years ago lived in San Francisco, and now lives in Taxachusetts. The problem is again one of math, efficiency gains you what? maybe 5-10% in energy use? How are you going to replace the 76-61% of power that comes from fossil sources? Keep in mind that renewables make up less than 10% of our power consumption currently. We’d have to up our use of renewables by at least a factor of 6 to get anwhere close to meeting our energy needs, and that’s if we kept every nuclear plant open (which is 20% of our usage at the moment).
MikeJ
US earthquakes, 1973-2002. Where do you want to build nukes?
Congrats Michigan, you get them all!
gnomedad
@Cermet:
I came across this article about Thorium reactors today, and they look even better than CANDU. They use a more abundant fuel, there are no proliferation issues, and can be made intrinsically safe — you can pull the plug and walk away, and nothing bad happens. Unfortunately, they were abandoned years ago, at least partly for political reasons, I glean.
The video is pretty cool — a nice 15-minute condensation of four talks. You seem pretty knowledgable — do you (or anyone else) know more about this?
Comrade Mary
It appears that the helicopters and water cannons deliver about 2000 gallons of water per load. At Metafilter, someone has calculated the capacity of the storage pools:
David Koch
When Nukes lose, my oil wins.
burnspbesq
@Roger Moore:
I thought I heard earlier today that TEPCo was stringing some sort of temporary trunk line back to Fukushima so that there would be enough electricity to restart the primary cooling systems.
The irony there is not lost on me: insufficient supply of electricity to an electrical generating plant.
Arclite
They are now dropping water on reactors 2 and 3 using helicopters. They have to get very low though, or the water just disperses and is ineffective.
If they are using helicopters, they are really out of ideas.
I wonder how that electric line is coming along…
Eric U.
my thought has always been that we aren’t ready to build nukes yet, and that we basically are wasting the fuel that we use before we are ready.
My biggest nagging fear has always been that the nuclear engineers I know are way too flippant about the dangers. The first explosion happened minutes after the head of the nuclear engineering program sent out an email on the staff listserv saying there was nothing to worry about.
Comrade Mary
It looks as if at least one of the runs on #3 was pretty well targeted, but others have been more dispersed. If the helicopters go low enough to get a good hit, the pilots are exposed to too much radiation. They just can’t catch a break.
burnspbesq
@Cermet:
WTF are you talking about? Under what theory is the US taxpayer ultimately on the hook for damages caused by malfunctions in reactors sold by a private US company to a private Japanese company 30+ years ago?
If you want to make shit up, at least try to make plausible shit up.
aliasofwestgate
@burnspbesq:
The plants went on auto shutdown with the initial quake. That’s protocol during any earthquake there. The problem is all the backup systems weren’t meant to last THIS long. Even the designers didn’t anticipate being out of power even outside the plant this long.
The tsunami damaged a lot of their own systems, much less decimated the entire outside grid to draw power from elsewhere. Fukushima Daini has been able to get things under control. Daiichi hasn’t had that kind of luck, since i think they got brunt of the damage of both disasters in their particular location. Now they need an outside line because the backups and their own grid that i’m betting had backups linked to the other plants simply isn’t THERE anymore.
JPL
@Comrade Mary: If the radiation levels were to high yesterday for the drop, then what changed? By all accounts, the levels have risen.
PeakVT
@MikeJ: Wisconsin should get some, too. Really, though, that map doesn’t show peak ground acceleration, which is what reactors are designed against.
Big City Mary
The US Bush led government, with EPA head Christy Whitman doing the talking, said that Ground Zero was perfectly safe for all the workers initially doing rescue and then long term clean up. Nine years later, a financial package was finally passed to help the already dead, the dying and the sick rescue workers, with NO Repubican votes. I don’t know how many people were involved, but hardly a month or less goes by that yet another very young “first responder” dies leaving behind a spouse and children.
I went to the funeral of one in the fall of 2008. He had been an EMT first responder. The last time I met with him in my office, for continued discussions on his new garment company, he had a nagging cough and said he was going to the doctor the next week. He died, maybe middle 30s, leaving behind a wife and 3 very young chidren just 6 weeks later, a very agressive form of stomach cancer that had spread to his lungs. The funeral was a nightmare, the guy was even more talented than I knew and just a tragedy.
I do not know what they are telling the nuclear plant workers in Japan. I suspect the truth and some are choosing to be heroic, or at least I hope that is the case.
But if it happens here, it will most definately be lies and lies and lies.
And a piece of advice, do not eat seafood from the Gulf. Just don’t. S–t, in a few years there maybe nothing left to eat that is safe except canned foods from the 1960s Cuban Crisis bomb shelters.
burnspbesq
@dlnelson:
That’s a new one in the annals of Balloon-Juice: an apology for spelling something correctly.
tkogrumpy
It appears that the Japanese are in shit hit the fan territory.Without intervention there will almost certainly be one or more meltdowns, and with radiation levels as high as they are, it seems impossible to intervene.Godzilla, where are you when we need you.
magurakurin
@Arclite:
3 and 4. 2 still has a completing intact outer building.
Cermet
Sorry for the raves about CANDU but I also agree that coal has really bad issues (both AGW but ash waste, and yes, radioactive gasses, too) and yet, the bottom line is that we don’t have a lot of choices – we americans, when peak oil hits, will get these pieces of shit US reactors driven down our throats – the CANDU is far safer, available, cheaper, safer fuel and easier to operate – yes, far from perfect and the waste issue is terrible (no solution, still!) but I am at a loss to think of any real alternative … thorium, people have looked at it and to date, no power plants (but I know less than zero outside that one stupid statement) so that one I can’t even spell, much less talk about.
Comrade Mary
NHK announcer: each chopper limited to 40 runs. Assuming perfect release, that’s 80,000 gallon per chopper, with two choppers making it 160,000 gallons total. Not. Good.
tkogrumpy
@burnspbesq: Would Price Anderson apply?
Comrade Mary
NHK: runs have been suspended and choppers are leaving the scene. Too hot, maybe, but they just may have to collect more water.
PanAmerican
@srv:
Liquidators.
burnspbesq
@tkogrumpy:
You’ve lost me. Clarification, please?
Shoemaker-Levy 9
I think the Roman alphabet equivalent is Plan D or E. And yes, Japan is still considered the most prepared country on Earth.
The logical response to the recent catastrophes in the energy sector would be to double the number of nuclear reactors and deep-water oil wells. I’ll be damned if a few tens of thousands of dead Japanese and dolphins impinge on my Yahweh-given right to drive my Chevy Suburban four blocks to the 7-11.
Roger Moore
@MikeJ:
Earthquake country != place where there are occasionally earthquakes that can be detected with a seismometer.
Comrade Mary
@PanAmerican: Otherwise known as dead men walking. Poor, miserable, heroic sods. You know, whenever I start to lose my faith in human nature, I remember that people like these can make the ultimate sacrifice.
Nied
@tkogrumpy:
Actually it appears all three active reactors have already suffered meltdowns. As long as the melted core elements stay inside their containment vessels that shouldn’t be a problem, once everything has cooled down the whole assembly can be carted off and likely reprocessed into fresh fuel safely. The problem now is that the spent fuel rods may be loosing their cooling pool. If they are they could get hot enough from radiological decay to catch fire and spread some rather nasty elements into the air. If they can keep that from happening the whole area should be safe within a year or two.
hilts
Maybe, it’s time for you to consider withdrawing that support.
kingtoots
@gnomedad: Thorium can be used as fuel in CANDU reactors.
RalfW
@Tim F.:
I don’t think that is correct. After 12-18 months of cooling in a spent fuel pool, I believe most US power waste can be stored for a few decades in dry cask storage. In fact the US govt is pushing plants to move more waste to this method precisely because it is safer.
The casks do need to be observed and maintained, but nothing like a water pool for cooling the rods the first year or so. Casks won’t be safe in a Mad Max world, but assuming (yeah, there I go) we don’t devolve that badly, there is not cause for “it’ll explode!” worry.
I still don’t like how slipshod the nuclear industry is being about our long term waste storage issue. I don’t really like living w/in 50 miles of 3 nukes. I really just don’t like nukes all that much.
But I also don’t think it pays to be alarmist about the 30 year level storage issues. 300-3,000 years? Not so good. First 300 days, could be iffy.
robertdsc-PowerBook
5000 tons of boron, sand, and other materials were dumped into the gaping maw of the exploded reactor using helicopters. Naturally, the helicoper pilots suffered severe exposure to the radiation. Many died.
tkogrumpy
@burnspbesq: This law passed in 1957 basicly says U.S. gov picks up the tab for a nuke disaster in the U.S. What I don’t know is if it applies to the Japanese nukes.
Little Boots
funny question for the sixties veterans: when you felt like it might be over, when you felt like you were actually losing the battle, how did you keep going. I think long term we’re winning, but short term is looking kind of depressing lately. did you feel that? what helped?
Little Boots
@robertdsc-PowerBook:
many are dying now, I’m sure. and many more will. I think it’s the only choice for Japan, which totally sucks.
RalfW
@Mr Stagger Lee: The French do Fast Breeder Reactors, which make a fair bit ‘o plutonium, a teensy problem, I’ve heard.
Southern Beale
OK well I love ya John and here’s another kick in the nuts:
Dog in Japan stays by the side of its ailing friend in the rubble
There’s video at the link … and a happy ending of sorts.
JAHILL10
@Juanuchis: Howdy, and welcome!
Nied
Interesting update from the IAEA: Over the last two days the temperature in the #4 reactor pool stayed steady at 84C. That’s really high but OK. Unfortunately they don’t have data for today ((but they do for other pools in the facility) that’s damned alarming.
tkogrumpy
@Little Boots: I’m afraid that’s upside down for me. in the seventies I thought we were winning for sure. Then came Ronnie Raygun. Today I’m sorry to say, I believe it’s all over. I hope I’m wrong. Sorry.
jake the snake
Where is Doc Ferrel when we need him.
Lester Del Ray described a nuclear plant accident reasonably accurately considering it was about 70 years
ago and there weren’t any to go by.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-SbXIGmLkbwC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=NERVES+LESTER+DEL+RAY&source=bl&ots=H_W-si7R37&sig=zKFSbN6iSlR6MgkhQOVqTF8adoo&hl=en&ei=IWSBTdLlBMm2twfwgrHEBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false
JAHILL10
@Cermet: Thank you. It needs to be said. These guys have balls of steel. I don’t know if I could do what they are volunteering to do.
Southern Beale
@RalfW:
Only a problem depending on which side of the war you’re on….
RalfW
@Nied:
I think we can squeeze much more than 5-10%. We’d have to do all sorts of things Repugs hate, like making shopping centers abandon their daylight for midnight lighting, obsession with incandecents, uninsulated commercial spaces, etc, and a whole host of other things. It would take a lot of time.
And it would have to be one part of a multi-pronged approach that would also include compact cities, rail, wakability, wind power, solar-to-hydrogen plants, blah, blah, blah.
Hence all the conservatives have to stroke out and leave the earth cynicism. Really big, complex problems that require long term, multifacted solutions will not happen as long as these evidence-hating, faith based jackknobs run even 1/3 of things.
Little Boots
oh, and NPR, just call out James O’Keefe as the Twat that he is. Also, too.
Little Boots
@tkogrumpy:
I feel that too, but sometimes. I’m still hopeful, but it sucks a lot right now.
Little Boots
people are so fucking stupid. everyone, stop being so fucking stupid! Does that work as a rallying cry?
nancydarling
@Juanuchis: Welcome. This place is not for the faint of heart, but you will learn stuff and laugh a lot if you are in to scatological (and worse!) humor.
Roger Moore
@Eric U.:
No. You need experience to get good at anything. If we don’t build plants now, we’ll just make all the mistakes in the future. It seems as though it shouldn’t work that way, but in the real world it does.
MikeJ
@Roger Moore: Just because they have earthquakes there doesn’t mean they have earthquakes there?
Are you going to tell me that is is not possible for any of those places to have an earthquake?
I will grant you, the upper midwest looks the safest.
Little Boots
@Roger Moore:
that seems … risky.
srv
I wonder how long before some wingnut will observe that our unemployed might want to lookup nuclear clean up jobs.
Little Boots
can we try massive solar first? is that allowed?
Bob L
@srv:
By killing a lot of Russian men ; they grabbed guys off the street gave them a bag of cement to dump on the reactor and then sent them to the hospitable to die.
Nied
@RalfW:
Well it’s great that you think that but unless you have something to back up that faith you’re not going to do much better than the idiots who have “faith” that Global Warming is a lie.
Are you sure that is going to get you 70% (90% if we’re getting rid of nuclear too) of US energy consumption? Please show me how.
Well call me when that happens. In the mean time what’s your evidence for your “evidence” based solutions?
Little Boots
damned hospitable.
tkogrumpy
@Little Boots: Sadly, no.
sukabi
@burnspbesq: wouldn’t the assumption that just plugging stuff back in be a bit naive since it would seem reasonable that with the quakes, tsunamis & explosions that there would be substantial damage to the electrical, water circulating and other systems in the reactor buildings… and that with the extensive damage they’ve sustained, that a substantial amount of cleaning up rubble in the buildings and rebuilding those systems would need to be done to make any “reconnection” of electrical even a possibility?
an overhead shot of the nuke facility
http://www.flickr.com/photos/digitalglobe-imagery/5525887859/sizes/o/
also, what effect does radiation/ water / debris have on electronics / computer systems? because all the systems in the reactors have been exposed to massive amounts of all of the above…
Cain
@Juanuchis:
Welcome to the snarky juice..
cain
tkogrumpy
@Little Boots: Yes but first you will have to except massive conservation.Using much much less energy than we currently do is the only real strategy with a chance.
MikeJ
@Little Boots: That was my thought. If we need to put a lot of time and effort and money into making a power source more suitable for massive deployment, why not something that doesn’t cause tumors when it goes wrong?
MattR
Not sure if it has been said in one of the previous threads, but RIP Nate Dogg. Kinda ironic in these times that I know him best for a song called Regulate
sukabi
Feed from NHK World talking about the water dumps
Little Boots
@tkogrumpy:
how much chance is that, really? we’re awfully self indulgent as a culture. can we really cut back on anything? I mean, ultimately, we’ll have to, but we might be already over the edge of catastrophe when that happens.
Montysano
So I’m trying to imagine hovering a couple hundred feet up in a helicopter, taking aim with a big bucket of water, and trying to accurately pour it into a swimming pool that is partially/mostly covered with smoldering wreckage.
FSM bless ’em. Hope it works.
Left Coast Tom
@MikeJ: Small quakes on minor faults aren’t nearly the same thing as major quakes along plate boundaries. In the same sense, tornadoes have been recorded in California, but nobody here in quake-land seriously expects an F-5.
Living in CA…we get lots of quakes, and I’ve never felt anything less than about M-4 (only once), generally 4.5 is what I start feeling. M3 and M4 quakes are Major News when they occur in the midwest, and many people report feeling them, presumably they cause a lot more shaking in those areas. That, too, is an issue (the real problem is ground acceleration at a given location – even here, weak ground will move in quakes that doesn’t affect stronger ground).
New Madrid presents a different issue than San Andreas…a fault, known to be capable of major earthquakes, mid-plate. In a region where pretty much nothing is built to withstand ground movement. Despite the known record.
As I understand (not being a geologist), mid-plate quakes are somewhat poorly understood.
Which is to say, I’m pretty sure simply showing a map of quakes since 197x doesn’t tell us what we need to know, but at the same time I don’t think we know what needs to be known.
Joe Beese
Oh, by the way, John…
When can we expect you to share with us your “disappointment” over the following?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2382048,00.asp
sukabi
@sukabi: also, dumping massive amounts of water into the facilities would suggest that they know that this is the last resort to stop an even more massive cataclysm … all the weight from the tons of water will destroy whatever’s left of the electrical / computer control systems…
sukabi
@Montysano: take a look at this link… shows the water drop… there is nothing close to hitting the pool…
hilts
The Washington Post sincerely regrets committing plagiarism and humbly seeks forgiveness
h/t http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/editors-note-an-apology/2011/03/16/ABxGsnf_story.html?hpid=z3
RalfW
@<a href="#comment-2480023" (edited)
Roger Moore
@MikeJ:
No. My point is that not building nuclear plants on fault lines as Mr. Cole indicated means not building them in places where there’s the kind of massive earthquake that could do serious damage to a nuclear plant. There are earthquakes in many places, but outside of a few hotspots (the West Coast and the New Madrid fault) the ones in the US won’t threaten a well built house, much less a power plant. There may be good reasons for not wanting to build nuclear plants in Kansas or Florida, but earthquake danger is not one of them.
Montysano
@Nied:
What’s the source for your 5-10% number? Plucked from a dark, moist place, I’m guessing.
tkogrumpy
@Little Boots: All I know is that it works for me. A lot of my neighbors are poor unemployed an living in thirty year old trailers and they still use four times as much energy as I do.
sukabi
@Roger Moore: unless some gasholes decide that they would like to frack to extract natural gas… then they can induce earthquakes in an area that doesn’t usually have them…
RalfW
Y’know, I do think the future doesn’t have to be awful and fucked up. That may make me a liberal. Even a naive one.
I’m logging off and need to go into a self-imposed news and baloon juice blackout till tomorrow.
Hello HGTV for some mindless, elitist consumerism for the striving masses. And then maybe Jon Stewart, that “both sides” wanker who makes me laugh.
.
Hope may return tomorrow. Or not.
Nied
@sukabi: Keep in mind the whole facility is a write off at this point, and has been since they started pumping sea water in on Saturday. The computer control systems needed to maintain a stable nuclear reaction aren’t necessary anymore. All they need now is a good pressure gage on the pumps to make sure they’re still pumping.
trixie larue
I have a feeling things are going to change in a big way and the stuff we are writing on blog sites will turn into where can we get potassium iodide. I’m having another beer.
Southern Beale
Also, since I’m such a ray of sunshine tonight: U.S Nuke Plants Ranked By Risk
NRC ranked nuclear plants with the highest risk of suffering core damage from an earthquake….The one outside of New York City is the riskiest. Good to know. One of TVA’s plants in Tennessee ranks #4. California plants apparently aren’t that risky. Go figure.
sukabi
@Nied:I realize that, but the assumption by some that they just need to get electricity there and the circulating pumps will work seems very unrealistic…
in the feed from NHK World linked above they are talking about having to rebuild the generators / pumps as they aren’t operational… talking days at the soonest… are there days to wait?
Southern Beale
@sukabi:
Like I just heard Kasich wants to do in Ohio … Ohio STATE PARKS, I should add …
nancydarling
@tkogrumpy: Maybe they use 4X the energy that you do because that 30 year old trailer is not insulated well and they can’t afford anything better.
MattR
@Southern Beale: That is just risk of damage from a quake. Not that that is meaningless, but it is a bit different. And it makes me feel better since I grew up in (and my mom and most of my closest friends still live in) the Indian Point 10 mile evacuation zone. The real problem with that reactor is that the people of NYC (roughly 25 miles south) have zero chance of successfully evacuating if it ever becomes necessary. Just too many bottlenecks to deal with.
sukabi
@nancydarling: probably like sitting in a sieve… single pane windows, insulation that’s been eaten out by mice, ect…
joel hanes
@Cermet:
we don’t have a lot of choices
Contraception is the highest-leverage energy technology.
Support Planned Parenthood.
HBuellA
@Southern Beale: Thanks for sending the video.
Omnes Omnibus
Reading this thread makes me feel as thought I should be scouting out a good cave, making a set of spears, and preparing to do battle with the giant roachmen who are the inevitable result of any attempt to do anything. I guess we shouldn’t really be concerned about labor unions, DoMA, or tax rates since society is DOOMED.
AhabTRuler
Does the fact that the rods in No. 4’s storage pond aren’t exhausted make a difference?
tkogrumpy
@nancydarling: Maybe.
nancydarling
@Omnes Omnibus: Here is something my sister sent me today that made me laugh out loud. It’s called Doggie Dining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVwlMVYqMu4&feature=player_embedded#at=216
Neutron Flux
@AhabTRuler: I think you know the answer to that.
AhabTRuler
The Japanese government has been pretty useless throughout, but the blue jumpsuit uniforms are a nice touch. I wonder if they are bespoke?
@Neutron Flux: No worries.
Neutron Flux
@AhabTRuler: Sorry, that came across as smart ass.
The safest fuel is never used fuel. It the fuel has been in the core for a couple of cycles, then it does not make much difference. They will have a good deal of decay heat.
Nied
@sukabi: They’re talking about needing to rebuild the generators that power the pumps. Remember the pumps are in relative safety in high pressure water pipes, it’s the generators that got pulverized by the tsunami. If they can get a source of electricity other than the damaged generators then they’re home free.
Nied
@Montysano:
Almost. Despite doing a good deal of looking tonight I can’t find anything to disprove it though. Care to help?
Ruckus
@RalfW:
Of course, this sort of wonky policy-based problem solving only works if the Amerikan right has a collective, massive stroke and dies.
I like how you think. Get right to the point with an effective solution.
Neutron Flux
@Nied: I don’t know dude, loss of all ac for…what, 5 days?
I agree that forced flow will stop the damage, but the damage is pretty much done by now.
joel hanes
@Little Boots:
question for the sixties veterans: when you felt like it might be over, when you felt like you were actually losing the battle, how did you keep going? I think long term we’re winning, but short term is looking kind of depressing lately. did you feel that?
Yes, except that I didn’t and don’t feel that “long term we’re winning”.
The nation has changed enormously since Nixon’s inauguration. I would say that almost all the changes in our institutions and media have been for the worse, while some changes in culture and individual attitudes — notably the growing acceptance of gays and the partial integration of brown-skinned Americans, and even more notably the changes wrougt by feminism — have been for the better.
what helped?
Realize that you can’t, by your own efforts, much influence the course of national events and vast political tides.
So think locally. Scale down the struggle until you find something on a human scale, something you can do yourself to make the world better.
Feeling much as you, my Dad bought some cheap idle land and restored a wetland, bought a bit of remnant prairie and donated it to a county park that will preserve it, got involved in prairie restoration and collected local ecotype seeds in order to restore tiny patches of prairie on his own land and in ditches around our town, built and installed many bluebird houses — that kind of stuff.
For myself, I volunteered in the elementary schools while the kids were young — mostly just shelving books in the library and other scutwork, but I got to help teach reading for a couple years.
AhabTRuler
@Nied:
Well, relatively speaking.
Mnemosyne
@MikeJ:
Possible? Sure. But as likely as a big earthquake in Japan, California, or one of the other many spots on the Ring of Fire? Nope.
As terrible as the damage and the human toll is in Japan, it would be infinitely worse if they were not a country that spends a huge amount of time and money preparing for earthquakes and tsunamis. And they don’t spend that time and money on the off-chance that maybe possibly someday something might happen. They spend it because they know they’re in the Ring of Fire and it’s an absolute certainty that something like this would happen eventually.
The reason why nuke plants in other states would fare worse in earthquakes than ones built in California is that the ones in California are specifically built to withstand earthquakes. The ones in New York state are not, because major earthquakes are vanishingly rare there.
Sorry, but fearmongering about the New Madrid Fault just sounds ridiculous to those of us living near the San Andreas Fault.
Neutron Flux
@Nied: To add, this assumes that there is still a coolable geometry in the core.
Big assumption at this point.
Forced flow would allow more boron tho, that would be good to limit the possibility of a restart of the chain reaction.
AhabTRuler
@Neutron Flux: They were running out of boron previously, and China was going to lend them theirs, but does anyone know if UPS delivered?
stuckinred
@Little Boots: Came home in 69 and worked to stop the war. Four years later it was still going on. When I was there we said “fuck it and drive on”. Still do.
eta
I think many of us gave up on national politics and tried to work locally. That’s what I did, kids sports became my focus in public recreation.
Lori
Why aren’t they using robots? I know it’s not as simple as strapping a water hose onto a Rumba vacuum cleaner and pointing the Rumba in the right direction (of the spent fuel cooling pools that keep boiling off water). But still, why aren’t we technologically advanced enough to have a robot that can drag a water hose/pump setup to the right place and stick it in?
Neutron Flux
@AhabTRuler: Just like most things in this clusterfuck, Who knows?
Arclite
@Lori: So far, none of the robots have been willing to risk irradiation and circuit degradation for the humans.
John O
@Lori:
It’s because the Japanese have no skill in robotic technology.
Nied
@Neutron Flux: My understanding is that they’ve had intermittent generator power since the tsunami so there’s at least a good chance the core hasn’t melted out of the containment vessel. If they can keep up the coolant pressure this might end up being “mearly” Three Mile Island instead of Chernobyl.
Fish you can read by and lobsters as big as a house!
AhabTRuler
@Arclite: Perhaps they recognize that this is a necessary lesson for humanity, and are thus following the Zeroth Law?
@Nied: Three or four Three Mile Islands? On Steroids?
Comrade Mary
The robots used during the Chernobyl crisis went completely haywire because their circuits couldnae handle the radiation. However, there were/are apparently some robots crawling inside the sarcophagus, so I don’t know what combo of circuits and radiation levels play nicely together or don’t.
Lori
@Nied: Would be very cool if there was a large movable set of solar panels or wind turbines that could get quickly set up, to generate the power to save the day. Any solar/wind power engineers in this group, that could comment on feasibility of portable large energy setups? Or who could say how many KW or MW energy would be needed?
nancydarling
This is OT, but demonstrators have taken over the lobby of BGR, a lobbying firm that was throwing a fund raiser for Wisconsin republicans tonight.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/as-wisconsin-sens-head-for-dc-labor-brings-the-war-to-them.php?ref=fpblg
Nied
All right that’s it for me. Time for Conan!
noodler
and not once have i heard the talking heads say nukular vs. nuclear. Miss GWB yet?
Arclite
@Lori: Diesel generators are much more robust/portable/reliable. Apparently they tried trucking some in within hours of the earthquake but the plugs didn’t fit between the generator and the cooling system power hookups. Why they didn’t hotwire/jury rig it is unknown. It sounds in addition to having to deal with the natural disasters, the contingency plans and drills were lacking.
tkogrumpy
@nancydarling: But I’m thinkin’ it has more to do with the three ton pickup truck that they use to make big stripes of burning rubber out in front of their house. Or maybe the his and hers two cycle snowmobiles sitting in the dooryard.Do you remember how horrified you were when the supermarkets all changed over from horizontal to vertical freezer display cases? Do you remember when GM decided that we should all run our headlights when ever we drive?Do you recall how incensed you were to learn that recessed lights waste 99% of the electrical energy that they used? I do.
Joe Beese
“The high investment costs, the long building time, the length of time it takes to see a return on investment, the price uncertainty of electricity and the very large potential liability simply don’t make nuclear power anywhere near economically viable. To make it an “investment” that private companies are willing to undertake requires huge government handouts and legislation privatizing the profits while socializing the losses.
Not surprisingly an industry so depending on corporate welfare is such a large political donor to the politicians who provide and can increase the direct/indirect subsidies.”
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2011/03/16/nuclear-powers-existence-dependent-on-multiple-forms-of-corporate-welfare/
“Despite the ongoing nuclear crisis in Japan, President Obama continues to support nuclear power and the construction of new reactors in the U.S., Energy Secretary Steven Chu said this morning on Capitol Hill.”
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/03/secretary-chu-obama-still-supports-expanding-nuclear-plants-in-the-us.html
gordon_schumway
@David Koch: We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.
tkogrumpy
@joel hanes: Exactly!
Neutron Flux
@Nied: The key is coolable geometry. If the core has deformed into a lump, then cooling it by passing water over and around the lump, then perhaps then the heat can be transfered.
This doesn’t necessarily solve the heat generation problem.
But hell, it is all speculation at this point without knowing actual core temps and containment radiation levels.
PNW Warrior Woman
John…for reference:
Japan, the persian Gulf and Energy
Nellcote
@Little Boots:
heroin
nancydarling
@tkogrumpy: I know. I know. I see it around here too. There is a lot of ignorance out there. We have quite a hill to climb to turn it all around.
Nellcote
@Left Coast Tom:
They shut down some gas fracking in Arkansas due to earthquakes. They’re checking to see if there’s a corelation.
cyd
@Nied:
I don’t think they’re gonna be reprocessing this. It will probably be entombed in some specialized facility somewhere.
Lori
@Arclite: Interesting. If I had money for a startup, I’d love to make radiation-proof robots designed for use during nuclear power plant problems (with drills, water hose carrying, and electrical rewiring dexterity capabilities). The robots could prevent meltdowns, save lives of plant workers and firefighters,and could be brought to anyplace currently having a nuclear plant problem. Heck, make a little army of 20 or 50 of these robots, and then have the IAEA buy them as a ‘robot fixit fleet’ for use in any nuclear plant emergency. With all the billions of $$s put into building nuclear power plants, it’s surprising to me we haven’t produced functioning robots for fixing the plants yet.
Roger Moore
@Arclite:
If they never noticed that they can’t plug their generators into the things that need their power, their drill isn’t worth shit. Shaking out bugs like that is a major purpose of running drills. Every time we run an all-hands disaster drill at my work, we discover new things to improve in our plans.
Svensker
@Little Boots:
Drugs, sex and rock ‘n’ roll, what else?
Arclite
@Lori: I agree it is odd that they don’t have shielded robots for just this kind of contingency. Yet another instance of “Hoocudanode!”
Arclite
@Roger Moore: Exactly, which makes me think that the drills weren’t run.
Suffern ACE
@Lori: What! You don’t sell those things before the disaster. They go up in price considerably during and after one.
Bruce S
I’ve put together a “Common Sense” Guide to the Great Deficit Debate, to help activists and concerned citizens get basic background and facts to fight the hysterics generated by Tea Partiers, Koch apparatchiks and GOP social nihilists:
A PDF download – and related commentary, links & resources – available here:
http://titanicsailsatdawn.blogspot.com/
The Titanic sails at dawn
Hope this is useful to some of you – and spread it around if you are so moved.
Roger Moore
@cyd:
There’s no point in entombing it in a specialized facility somewhere unless it’s spent beyond the point of practical reprocessing, i.e. it’s being sent to a Yucca Mountain equivalent, and there’s no reason to think that’s the case. If it can be moved safely, it can be reprocessed, and the Japanese are big on reprocessing. The only reason for entombing it would be if it can’t be moved safely, in which case it will be done in an improvised facility on site, not in a specialized facility someplace else.
Jebediah
@joel hanes:
Planned Parenthood gets an automatic donation outta my checking account every month.
virag
if we had a way to turn energy-star appliances and triple pane windows into wmd’s, there would be a cabinet department demanding more of them.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Bob L:
Damned commies! If we were to do it we would grab guys off the street, give them a bag of cement to dump on the reactor, fire them for doing a crappy job of it and then let them go home to die.
We could do it for less! USA! USA! USA!
bob h
The Japanese have been condemned by the decision to place their backup power generators in a place where a tsunami could take them out.
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
@tkogrumpy:
I like the idea of refusing to grant permits for the construction of private dwellings of more than 3500 square feet.
These wingnut assholes in suburban Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta and JAX with 6000 square foot homes for a family of 4 are a major part of the problem.
brantl
We should agree to stop building them at all, since 1) they pollute for all the forseeable future, when they fuck up,
2) they keep fucking up, no matter how they are built,
3) the management and design of these fucking things is so casual, they’re bound to fuck up, and,
4) there’s no conceivable thing you can do with the fucking waste, unless you’re France, and then you just send it all to Russia, like they do, and leave the fucking Russians to worry about it.
Stupid fucking plan, all around.
Barry
@MikeJ: “Congrats Michigan, you get them all!”
Nope – we got two.
Wisconsin, now, is clean. And under the Koch Brothers rule, they’ll be able to do nuclear power really, really cheap. And if a clean-up is needed, they’ll just stuff bodies in until the reactor is safe.
lllphd
john, dear, you’ve clearly been in the car too long. hope you’ve safely arrived and rested.
you are aware the backup plans have all been thwarted by the quake/tsunami, i.e., no power etc.?
as for not building these godforsaken monsters on fault lines, there have been 30 accidents at nuclear power plants worldwide since their inception. chernobyl, three mile island, etc.; 26 not on fault lines (the 4 that were are all in japan).
as for japan, it IS a fault line! and they have no real natural source of energy for all those people, so they’ve been stuck with this as their main option.
so, they relied on GE to sell them a viable product. turns out, GE was warned and ignored that. then recently, japan was warned about fukushima; and here we are.
it’s not just the fault line, but the line of product and assembly dependability and regulations and monitoring, each of which is subject to fail every step of the way. not to mention the problems with waste (ahem; where DO we put that stuff??) and aging facilities (ahem X2; what DO we do with those things?).
the problem is the stakes are SO DAMN HIGH. i mean, this stuff lingers FOREVER. for what? so we can tap away at will ad nauseam on our little devices here, without a care in the world or a thought to how much of the juice is required to create and maintain this addiction?
the conversation needs to be shifted radically; we have GOT to stop consuming so much power, so much of any- and everything.
but oh wait; maybe we’re not having that conversation because that’s the OPPOSITE of what the economists want us to do.
ohdearohdearohdear……
JW
OK. Don’t build reactors on fault lines, and so on.
How about building reactors of modern design? Every reactor on the planet is built on 50 year old tech.
Modern reactors don’t melt.
Wind, waves and the sun will never cut it.