The man is completely filled with hate:
A day before the Senate Judiciary Committee prepares to hold hearing on the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act, the Obama administration has endorsed Sen. Dianne Feinstein’s (D-CA) legislation to repeal it. Responding to a question from Metro Weekly’s Chris Geidner, White House Press Briefing, Jay Carney said Obama was “proud to support the Respect for Marriage Act” to “take DOMA off the books once and for all.” “This legislation would uphold the principle that the federal government should not deny gay and lesbian couples the same rights and legal protections as straight couples,” he added.
Will he ever stop ruining the lives of Dan Choi and John Aravosis.
Yevgraf
Clearly, he didn’t do that fast enough. He must be primaried, and if that fails, the GOP candidate must be supported in the general election.
freelancer
Pssh, whatevs Cole. You just think Choi is unfit to be a parent!
goblue72
I firmly agree that WATB on the far left will never be happy, even though we have seen more progress on these kinds of social issues in the last 3 years than in the preceeding 20.
However, don’t look know, but Obama is about to sign off on the Gang of Six’s stillborn baby of working and middle class ass-raping Grand Bargain that includes $4T in long term cuts, cutting SS/Medicare, and reducing the tax rate on the richest Americans from 35% to 29%.
Martin
See, he still won’t say ‘marriage’!
Whew, bought ourselves another day to hate the guy. That was a close one…
Pat
The wind is blowin’ gay rainbows now so Obama is finally on board. Bet he’s got the latest iPhone too.
John Cole
Slow the fuck down. He didn’t endorse the plan at all, he just said it was the type of honest negotiation we should be having, where even Republicans see the need for additional revenues. He’s going to use it as a club to beat the House GOP with, not sign on to anything they belch out.
Christ.
wrb
This proves that the being married to Michelle is miserable, and that Barack is having an affair, as he would only want gays to marry if he hates marriage like he hates them.
aimai
I’ve got to say that you are right about John Aravoisis. I’ve enjoyed (parts) of his blog over the years but the t shirt they are selling “So Evolve” which is some kind of insider anti Obama joke just really pisses me the fuck off.
aimai
Violet
Is Dan Choi going to chain himself to the White House fence again because Obama didn’t use the exact phrase, “I support gay marriage”?
Culture of Truth
It’s part of cynical ploy to cover his destruction of Medicare
goblue72
@John Cole – I will bet dollars to donuts that the President will be signing legislation pretty darn close to the Gang of Six proposal. He laid down a $4T guantlet last month and he can’t back out now. Coupled with the Gang of Six tax “reform” proposal being almost straight from the Bowles-Simpson Commission barf bag, and its right in the middle of what the President has been supporting all this time.
JWL
In this case, at least, The Man has done exactly what his constituency expected of him when they elected him in 2008.
The Dangerman
@John Cole:
Some Republicans may see the need for revenue, but nothing of the sort will ever pass the House.
In the end, and at the very, very, VERY last minute (and this may be after 8/2; we are all going to get incrementally more gray and need more Antacids before this ends), there will be a clean bill passed and Obama’s negotiating strategy will have been brilliant.
/obot
General Stuck
More like a big wedge driven between the crazies and the really crazies in the GOP caucus. The wingnuts are now trangulating against themselves and Obama just giving his blessing and asking if they need any help.
jwb
goblue72: It won’t get through the House, so it’s all moot.
Strandedvandal
They’ll just find some other reason to hate him. I’ll give the teabaggers credit, at they are up front with their hatred. The Obama Administration’s “base” can’t seem to settle on a particular reason, so they just keep making shit up. See post #3 as a prime example.
Martin
You mean the Conrad plan? Have you actually read it? Because I don’t see any Medicare cuts in there, and SS changes are not specified other than a government-wide shift to C-CPI (SS gets delayed 5 years along with a floor on benefits to ensure that they don’t go down relative to poverty), but with the imposition of a 60 vote requirement on any SS changes.
As far as ‘SS only needs minor tweaks’ goes, that’s about as minor as they come.
harokin
He just wants to subject middle class gays to the marriage penalty, increasing the tax burden on gays while giving more tax cuts to his wealthy pals at Goldman Sachs.
UncommonSense
PRIMARY HIM NOW!!!!1!!!ELEVEN!!
chopper
yeah, right. wake me up when O is having his own gay marriage, until then he’s history’s greatest monster.
yeahyeahwhatevs (Studly Pantload, once upon a time)
I’m about as ‘bottie as the next O-bot, but to those who state he’s not been talking jobs because he’s been dragged into this retarded-rainbow-pony deficitfest with the Republicans, this announcement (which I applaud) proves (once again) he can walk and chew gum, etc.
So, uhm, jobs?
If I missed somethin’, feel free to point it out. I’m not out to be deliberately obtuse.
celticdragonchick
I was not at all happy with the progress made during the first year and half of his presidency, and especially with some of the tone deaf and just plain damned stupid things that happened in the first couple of months. Cole and I have had a few words back and forth on that. That being said, real progress is being made now and I fully support it. I have no idea why Aravosis is still pouting in the corner.
I can understand Dan Choi. He lost a career and he saw it as a dishonorable thing to do to him. I get that. I don’t get Aravosis.
Montysano
For those who may have missed it,this 3 minute video of Obama talking with a bipartisan group of college students is guaranteed to improve your outlook. Thoughtfulness, correct grammar, vocabulary, complete sentences, the calm demeanor… we coulda done a lot worse.
Trurl
To repeat what I said in the other thread:
So? He’s always paid lip service to opposing DOMA as a law. When he “evolves” his way to actually supporting gay marriage – which will be as soon as the polls say he’d better, and not a second before – let us know.
jl
@17 martin (if still here)
What do you mean by
“SS changes are not specified other than a government-wide shift to C-CPI” ?
Edit: I think fiddling with COLA after retirement is a minor issue, and easy to reverse before huge damage done if any change proves a mistake. I am wary about moving indexing away from real wage for benefits of future retirees, which would be a big change, and a bad one IMHO.
JGabriel
John Cole:
I know there are people in the far left who will never be satisfied with Obama and/or will always look for reasons to be outraged by him.
That said, as a straight white guy, I’m not entirely comfortable mocking gay people who are impatient with the status quo of their civil rights.
I don’t feel like it’s my place to tell people with curtailed rights at what pace they should demand equality in the eyes of the law.
.
Lolis
@Martin:
I think this is different than the Conrad plan. No real details have been released yet. However, in the past when Obama offered to keep the lowered tax rate for the rich it was in exchange for capital gains taxes, which actually would generate more revenue.
homeruk
didn’t you see the teddy partridge post at fdl wondering whether the President support anti-gay reparative therapy?http://my.firedoglake.com/teddysanfran/2011/07/18/does-barack-obama-support-anti-gay-reparative-therapy/
Linnaeus
Agreed. Most of us here have never even had to think about dealing with what happened to Dan Choi.
I’m very glad to see the president’s support on this.
Pat
*this 3 minute video of Obama *
Some sage advice about that lecture from someone Obama claims to admire: “One spoke to me one day and said, ‘Now Dr. King, don’t you think you’re going to have to agree more with the Administration’s policy. I understand that your position on Vietnam has hurt the budget of your organization. And many people who respected you in civil rights have lost that respect and don’t you think that you’re going to have to agree more with the Administration’s policy to regain this.’ And I had to answer by looking that person into the eye, and say ‘I’m sorry sir but you don’t know me. I’m not a consensus leader.’ [Laughter – Applause] I do not determine what is right and wrong by looking at the budget of my organization or by taking a Gallup poll of the majority opinion. Ultimately a genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.”
Lolis
Obama also got the first openly gay federal judge appointed yesterday. I think Labor, Latinos and women’s groups would love to have had their agenda pushed for half as much as what Democrats have pushed for in gay rights.
Martin
FlipYrWhig
That’s what I thought too, as soon as I read the story on TPM. But that’s how TPM’s headline spins it: they see an “embrace” of the plan rather than encouraging noises about the idea that it is possible to make a plan. TPM’s HuffPo Jr. tendencies strike again.
Pat
Since when has compromise been a virtue on the left?
BO_Bill
Finally, a Balloon Juice story I can kind of agree with. I really don’t blame Barack totally though. It is the international finance guys who hold his records who are the truly brutal ones. All Barack probably did was have sex with a bunch of guys at Reverend Wrights church. But these bank guys seem to be truly ruthless. I would be careful about running too many more blog-posts like this one.
JonF
I guess Sully will briefly mention this in 2 point type in the middle of a 5000 word blog post about Paul Ryan?
goblue72
@jwb – It will pass the House. Once the plan is finalized and its clear there’s broad enough support on the Senate side for 60 votes and the Preznit stamps his blessing on it, Pelosi will get enough Dem votes on it that the GOP will split off enough votes on their side to pass it. Teabaggers get to vote against it and run in 2012 as having opposed it. Because that’s how DC works.
Han's Big Snark Solo
This is all just a cynical ploy by Obama to get Marcus Bachman to vote for him.
FlipYrWhig
Make an exception for Aravosis. He’s wholly deserving of mockery. No one who posts about what a pleasant person Katherine Harris is gets to occupy the moral high ground about political principle.
The Dangerman
@Trurl:
Gay Marriage will never come from Federal legislative action (as long as the Filibuster is 60, at least); now, at the State level, entirely different matter and, eventually, the USSC (not necessarily THIS USSC) will enact it through the Equal Protection clause. Obama has no reason to support it in the interim; there is no endgame win that includes him (beyond appointing the next USSC justices, I suppose).
celticdragonchick
Keep in mind we are still talking about “first openly gay federal judge” and “first transgendered Presidential appointee” here. Other minorities had their firsts a quarter of a century ago or more.
jwb
Montysano: And I presume you saw Digby‘s trashing of this: Obama is turning progressives into horrible pragmatists while conservatives get to be idealists who change the world.
taylormattd
He was supposed to use the bully pulpit more effectively. I.e., he was supposed to literally pick up a pulpit and angrily use it to smash the paper on which DOMA is written.
Otherwise, IT’S JUST WORDS, OK???
boss bitch
@goblue72:
no such thing happened. His team hasn’t even read it yet. Stop reading headlines and start listening to what he says.
OzoneR
Because it was never about issues. It’s about always being the victim.
FlipYrWhig
Oh, it’s not a virtue. But if the left held elected office, they might find compromise to be necessary. You know, being as there aren’t enough leftists to make uncompromising leftism the law of the land.
General Stuck
There seems to be a conflict in separate stories TPM is reporting on, about what the gang of six plan is. Here is an outline of it so far, and only calls for 500 billion of immediate cuts to budget, then propose a laundry list of other ideas to be worked out in detail. I don’t see it as the 4trillion dollar plan Obama and Boehner were working on together earlier. as indicated in another article at TPM.
Chyron HR
Yeah, why wasn’t Barrrrrrrrrrrrrrack doing this stuff back in the 60s, HUH? Answer me THAT, you Obotomized Obots.
dr. bloor
Another, slightly saner perspective.
But don’t let us interrupt your panic attack.
FlipYrWhig
@ jwb: Digby, disappointed and melancholy about something? Well, I’ll never.
John PM
Too little, too late! President Palin would have had DOMA repealed on her first day in office.
And on to the next round of “Obama is worse than Bush.” Appointing the first Latina Supreme Court justice and signing the Lily Ledbetter Act so don’t count.
FlipYrWhig
And even then I have no idea how immediate “immediate” is. Presumably not a chunk of $500B coming out of next year’s budget.
celticdragonchick
I have been one of the people here who is critical of Obama and the lack of “bully pulpit” politicking.
I have noticed, however, that when he does call press conferences and calls out the other side, there is scant mention if any at all in the news that same evening. Last week, a press conference during the day went all but unnoticed by the CBS Evening News.
Suffice to say that the Bully Pulpit has been eviscerated by lack of attention. The only way the President can compete with “Dancing With the Stars” is to literally ask for a prime time slot to address the nation. Reagan did not have this difficulty in the 80’s. When he said something, it was covered.
Dave
John PM – Don’t forget saving the American auto industry. That is SO not important at all.
Trurl
With this President, you always need to check the fine print. Supporting repeal of a law banning something is not the same as supporting that something,
Again: When he says “I support gay marriage”, let us know.
lamh34
Here the video of daily press briefing where PressSec reads the WH statement on the bill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2bD_LVbCxk&feature=player_embedded
boss bitch
@JGabriel:
NO. we’re mocking people who make up shit and smear people for profit and attention.
eric
I’ve found the episode of Monty Python’s Flying Circus that touches on the Bachmanns referring to homosexuality as enslavement and how outdated their ideas are followed by a bonus on the loony church she had to quit recently. The take away title from this episode is “Gay Boys in Bondage”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ModPbVMq0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
El Cid
In more news of Obama administration sexual depravity…
First, he refuses to save the snowflake babies. Now, he wants the government to make insurance companies pay to have you forcibly sterilized. “You” meaning “various cells within their humanoid carriers”.
And where’s his concern about the deficit & debt now?
What kind of rich country does he think this is that I could be forced to pay some tiny premium increase to subsidize $9 a month for a bunch of women, instead of just waiting around for lots of other potential costs which might be gigantic and maintain huge cost expenditures and dangers to women’s health which are also expensive and drive my premiums further up?
Aw, boo hoo hoo, we’re helping endanger little babies’ health. Which do you think those children would prefer, suffering autism or knowing the horror that once a long time ago I had to shell out somewhere like, who knows, a dollar more in a premium per year or month or week? Which would you want your child to suffer through? A mere physologico-psychological affliction, or stress related to the evils of big government?
Who the hell does he think he is telling me to not cut off my nose to spite my face? This is AMERICA. I’ll do whatever I want to my god-damned nose.
Tom Hilton
@Trurl:
Let’s see now:
1) DOMA = Federal law. Hence, falls within the President’s responsibilities.
2) Marriage laws = state laws. Hence, not within the President’s responsibilities.
3) Of course, state marriage laws can run afoul of the Constitution, which makes them subject to Federal courts. But again, not within the President’s responsibilities.
So, to sum up: you dismiss the President’s position on a matter within his responsibilities, because of the inadequacy of his statements on a matter that isn’t. Right. That makes all kinds of sense.
celticdragonchick
Maybe so. I dislike most “victimhood” narratives, since self pity and deliberate helplessness seems to be implicit in many of them (not all, by any means…but the Christian Right has this down to a science, which is amazing in modern day America)
I prefer to make headway and get something done. We are actually doing that now, so I stopped complaining.
Lawnguylander
Since when has success been a virtue on the left?
OzoneR
Why, so you can “check the fine print?”
Joe
John Cole… I respect you. But do you understand what the role of an activist is? It’s to KEEP pushing to get even more. Loudmouths like Dan Choi have a lot to do with Obama picking up his pace on gay rights issues. That doesn’t mean activists should declare victory. It means they have successfully expanded the overton window leftward, and should now push even further, assuming that’s necessary.
Some people just don’t understand the role of an activist. Choi is simply asking for more diverse witnesses, including people of color and binational couples. How dare he!!!! The ingrate!!
Montysano
@jwb:
Yeah I read Digby, as well as the Dday piece she linked to. If they can’t tell the difference between idealism and zealotry, they’re not worth reading.
dr. bloor
@Dave:
Joe
Ewwwww.. Activism! Yucky!
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
She’s been in a complete depression since her candidate John Edwards lost.
I mean really, do we really need to listen to anyone who supported an Elmer Gantry fake like Edwards.
joes527
Pat
… because MLK’s presidency … that was teh awesome.
Bobby Thomson
@ celticdragonchick 22
Celticdragonchick Johnson is right.
Joe
John Cole: “Will [Obama] ever stop ruining the lives of Dan Choi and John Aravosis.”
Weird. One of Dan Choi’s complaints was that binational couples were not represented. Yet he isn’t a binational couple, so it doesn’t apply to him. In other words, he’s showing the exact OPPOSITE of Cole’s implication… that Dan Choi is only concerned about himself.
boss bitch
@Lolis:
Most of what Obama has done on gay rights has been done on his own w/o Congress. He can’t do immigration reform w/o Congress.
urizon
Choi’s and Aravosis’s, and the rest of the gay community’s, strident advocacy helped move Obama on this issue. “Make me do it,” FDR said; I think this is exactly what happened.
If only the rest of the left would come to realize that organizing and demanding change is the only good way to make it happen.
jwb
FlipYrWhig: True, that, and I’ve never been a Digby fan. The extent of distrust, anger, and even paranoia in the post was startling and revealed far more about Digby than Obama.
OzoneR
Kirsten Gillibrand has more to do with Obama picking up his pace on gay rights than Dan Choi does.
Strandedvandal
Again with the Overton fucking window. Bullshit. President Obama has done exactly what he said he would do. Choi and his grandstanding shenanigans had nothing to do with it. Why is it so goddam hard for some of you to give this guy credit?
Lawnguylander
It may be true that Digby constantly makes predictions that don’t come true, got totally (and willingly) conned by that McKinsey healthcare report, has a grasp of politics that is no less silly than who-would-you-rather-have-a-beer-with-ism, but she feels the right way about shit and that’s what matters. This is how we know whether a pundit is worth paying attention to in these troubling and confusing times. How do we feel after consuming their punditry?
Trurl
Because that will actually represent a change in his public position. As opposed to this, which is just Cole pretending that it is.
FlipYrWhig
I know that’s the theory, but IMHO it’s rather convenient. Let’s expand beyond LGBT issues. Make it any issue: single-payer, climate change, the gold standard, English-only, whatever. Rant and rave about it, get your way… and it was because of the ranting and raving that you got it. Rant and rave about it, don’t get your way… and you’re authorized to rant and rave some more. Is ranting and raving always politically productive? Or can it be counterproductive?
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
this is such bullshit. the idiot chained himself to the White House on a day that Obama was out of town. Besides, people get arrested in front of the white house, pulling some shit or other, all the fucking time.
Redshift
@Trurl:
Waitaminute — first you complain that endorsing legislation that will remove the roadblock to requiring recognition of gay marriages under Full Faith and Credit, saying that it’s “lip service,” and now you’re claiming to be unhappy because he hasn’t paid actual lip service by saying your preferred words.
Call me back when you have something more than the equivalent of wingnuts complaining that he doesn’t say “American exceptionalism.”
Dave
@dr. bloor
I think part of it is Romney’s history in Michigan (his dad being governor and all). But also, too…my aunt lives in Michigan. She is a nurse. Her husband works for UM. You think they’d vote for the party that tends to defend those areas of our economy. But they are rabid Republicans and it makes no sense.
OzoneR
I wouldn’t link Choi and Aravosis with the rest of the gay community. The fight for gay marriage in New York was VERY different than the type of advocacy Choi and Aravosis employ. Never was there a “is Cuomo pulling our leg?” attitude from LGBT community in New York, even when there were reporters he was using marriage equality as leverage for a property tax cap.
Choi and Aravosis don’t push, they spread cynicism. It’s completely different. Never did they say “let’s give Obama/Democrats our support so they have the room to manuever” instead it was “Obama is NOT going to do this, you’ll see, he hates us”
If anything, they were counterproductive.
Martin
One of the most valid arguments against shifting SS to C-CPI was worry that SS was being singled out. The Conrad plan applies is broadly, which means that not only is SS COLA likely to climb slightly slower than under CPI, so would tax bracket triggers.
We’ve had a compound problem going on. If CPI overestimates inflation, even slightly, then what happens is SS pays out slightly more each year than inflation (which slowly bankrupts the program) and tax bracket triggers increase slightly more each year than inflation (which causes people to steadily slide into lower and lower top marginal brackets, depriving the govt of revenue). So we’re both overspending and undercollecting under CPI.
Moving to C-CPI government-wide solves quite a lot of problems thanks to very small incremental change happening everywhere. Tax bracket thresholds go up more slowly, so more people qualify for higher taxes than under CPI, SS payments go up more slowly so the system pays out less than under CPI, other triggers like qualifying for food stamps etc. would go up more slowly so more people would qualify for them as well. Deductible caps go up more slowly so people can’t deduct as much, etc.
Other parts of the government use other indexes or measures. Poverty levels, for example, are measured and reflective of real inflation (for the poor), not indexed by CPI or C-CPI, which is why SS payments have gone from 80% of the poverty level for a 1 person household now up to almost 130%. So the Conrad plan imposes a 125% of poverty minimum to serve as a fallback should C-CPI fail to keep up with inflation.
It’s not something to throw a party over, but it’s a pretty sensible all-around move that nobody really should get that bent out of shape over. As much as seniors will lose in SS COLAs, treasury will gain as much in income tax revenues. Also in the Conrad plan is to keep SS on CPI for 5 years and then phase in C-CPI for another 5, so that current recipients are even insulated from this to a fair degree.
What’s not apparent in the Conrad plan from what I’ve been able to find is how non-earned income is handled. That’s a big deal, but I’d happily trade the top marginal rate for the following: “Reform, not eliminate, tax expenditures for health, charitable giving, homeownership, and retirement, and retain support for low-income workers and families”
Since part of the deal is to “Maintain or improve the progressivity of the tax code”, that basically suggests taking a big stick to deductions for that top tax bracket – as much or more as is lost by reducing the rate. Further, by specifically knocking down deductions for mortgage interest, that’ll significantly help flatten out housing prices and reduce the temptation for bubbles. The tax code has been a major enabler for housing speculation.
Yevgraf
He is near.
El Tiburon
Cole, sometimes you can be as bitchy as the aforementioned Aravosis.
But I see what you did there.
I am much too busy to go find the DDay link over at FDL, but he had a nice rebuttal to Steve Benen regarding Obama’s calling out of Huffington Post.
The basic premise was all of our great social movements (New Deal, civil Rights, Gay marriage?) relied upon the very vocal critics to help push the issue.
So Aravosis and Choi are pushing the issues. Others (with less skin in the game) are okay with incremental change.
Wish we had more of these people.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Lawnguylander : This.
Yevgraf
By the way, I’m sick of Kortney loving her veggies. I prefer to see the model for snorg tee shirts.
lamh34
I put more credit in the hands of the activist who are pursuing their agenda not by media whoredom, but by daily activist living, putting “boots on the ground” so to speak, and doing it all without the need for camera shots or blog hits.
I’m sorry, but I do feel for Choi’s past circumstances, but IMHO he comes off as a big media whore, as for Aravois blogs hits are the thing for him.
celticdragonchick
It would be nice to have the ad for the webcomic The Dreamer again. It deserves the attention.
OzoneR
“critics” don’t push the issue, “advocates” push the issue.
Martin
10 years. Worthless WRT the deficit, basically.
gwangung
I don’t, mainly because this was directed against Obama and not against the major structures that prevented gay rights from advancing. Obama is not the only actor in this political field; I saw very little action from these people against the other actors.
This was not moving the Overton window. This was self aggrandizement because the focus of action was fellow travellers and not on opponents.
Bob
Very bold indeed! That’s what I call getting out front on this issue and leading the country! Take that, Obama haters, we ridicule you once again!!! Now, cry cry cry!
Davis X. Machina
@goblue72:
Nancy knows the drill — thus it has ever been. No debt ceiling vote, even when Bush was President, and Hastert was Speaker, ever got a majority of Republican House votes. Every one of them was passed only with the help of Democrats.
Sucks to be the grownups.
shortstop
Thank you for finally getting around to “noticing” this after having it pointed out to you approximately 1,542,670 times here.
Just Some Fuckhead
@OzoneR:
And in which direction do the critics of the critics move things?
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
You know, being as there aren’t enough leftists to make uncompromising leftism the law of the land.
Don’t be silly! They’d just use the ‘bully pulpit’ and, like magic, all their opponents would spontaneously realize how wrong they had always been. People would sing and dance in the streets and we’d finally acheive world peace.
shortstop
I’ve given up trying to sort the parodists from the dead serious.
Mnemosyne
So can anyone point me to the speech by MLK (or, heck, even Malcolm X) excoriating LBJ after the 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed and claiming it would have been passed even sooner but LBJ blocked it because he was a racist?
Activists really need to learn how to tell the difference between an ally and an enemy. Hint: the enemy is the one in favor of DOMA, not the guy saying he wants to end it.
gwangung
As usual, El Tiburon is trying to teach their grandparents to suck eggs.
Some of us are old enough to have actually been in social movements like civil rights.
rdalin
Great news! Hopefully this ends the whining from Arovosis and the FDL crew.
boss bitch
@urizon:
the rest of the gay community? yes but I doubt calling Obama homphobic, lying about his character and his beliefs, and saying that Harry Reid is a pussy that bleeds once a month is what FDR meant. And it sure as hell didn’t make things go faster.
jl
@84 martin,
Thanks for explanation. I forgot to ask for a link to the documents with the details.
I assume by C-CPI you mean the all consumer CPI, as opposed to wage earner and clerical, and the chained versus fixed basket version.
You mentioned nothing about adjustments for future benefits before retirement and enrollment in SS, but only seem to talk about adjustments to actual payments made to beneficiaries. If that is the case, then all the changes you mention seem reasonable.
In the past, I think biased analysis of SS COLAs were used to disguise unjustified benefit cuts, but that past gaming does not mean the biggest COLA is always the right one.
Martin
Nonsense. Cole will decide how much giant green cock you need.
boss bitch
@urizon:
the rest of the gay community? yes but I doubt calling Obama homphobic, lying about his character and his beliefs, and saying that Harry Reid is a p*ssy that bleeds once a month is what FDR meant. And it sure as hell didn’t make things go faster. There’s activism and there is what Choi and Aravosis do
OzoneR
and I got mocked for saying this exact thing for the past three years.
Not by you, but by others.
urizon
@OzoneR I disagree. I think Obama was pulled kicking and screaming to the left on this.
And I think it’s good for a movement to have activists who push the envelope when it comes to ‘acceptable’ political discourse. It gives those who follow more room to maneuver. Rhetorical bomb-throwers get the attention, while others in the movement calmly say, “s/he may have a point, you know.” This opens up new avenues of dialog. I’m a bit surprised that others can’t see the value in this type of tactic, especially since the right has been using it with great skill over the past twenty years.
If you’re morally opposed to vitriol? Okay. I get that; and you are entitled to your feelings. But don’t try to tell me that it sets the movement back. I spent too many years as an organizer to know that this simply isn’t true. No offense.
ruemara
El Tiburon
How, exactly, are Aravois & Choi pushing the issues? By going on Maddow? Really? Are they contacting and talking to Senators and House Reps who are blocking repeal? Are they writing articles in local papers discussing the real issues on the rights of marriage? Or are they indulging in grandstanding shenanigans and disavowing any gains because it isn’t their particularly desired gain in exactly the method they prefer? I had no idea the latter was successful pushing of issues. I’m sure Medgar Evers and MLK wish they were here to learn these methods. As far as “calling out Huffington Post”, was Obama wrong that he’s often painted as a tool of Wall Street, a stealth Republican, etc etc? How is that calling them out, when he’s repeating a narrative I’ve seen from HuffPo, FDL, GOS-hell, even on Ed Schulz. They should thank their lucky stars, it means that Barack Obama actually pays some attention to supposedly marginalized left media sites. Bloody well gives them some actual credibility.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
When critics, advocates, whatever spend as much time and energy going after Blue Dogs and voters as they do bitching about Obama, I’ll give them some “we made him do it” credit. This legislation is authored by the same DiFi who voted for the Bush tax cuts, the Iraq War, worried that unemployment benefits make the discontented rabble fat and lazy, etc. Tweety once gushed that she was his idea of what a Democrat “should be”, and that was back when he was still bedazzled by the Codpiece of Liberty.
Yevgraf
Sad to say, it isn’t even close to titillating. If I want porno images, by God, I’ll go to YouPorn or redtube and get some good porno images…
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
“I think Obama was pulled kicking and screaming to the left on this.”
Of course, because he’s a homophobe.
OzoneR
Are you crazy? rhetorical bomb-throwers get looked at as crazy and dangerous and people to avoid, people don’t say “s/he may have a point,” they said “I don’t want to be associated with this fucking nut”
Well, I’m going to try.
It sets the movement back, period.
Yevgraf
Sad to say, I think they did in 2009 and 2010, and we see the results of that.
boss bitch
@urizon:
oh please. No he wasn’t. You want to see kicking and screaming? look to the Republican party. There was none of that resistance to Obama.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
Ironically, today is the 18th anniversary of Clinton announcing DADT.
if yelling and screaming is so effective, then why did it take 18 years to repeal it.
Keith G
@celticdragonchick
It occurs to me that Choi’s outrage seems to often be greater than the given situation suggests. Was he like this in uniform? I have added him to a list of former military whom I need not listen to.
@JGabriel
I am gay and those two deserve it. Mock away. Some things take time. The progress thus far has been unthinkable for those of us a generation older. Still, one can keep friendly pressure up without vilifying those who are our allies. Those two are being..uhm..dramatic, for some personal agenda.
urizon
You’re wrong OzoneR. Sorry.
Corner Stone
@OzoneR:
OzoneR, I don’t remember seeing you round for the “past three years”.
But whatever name you were using, you deserved to be mocked for it, just like CDC does now.
boss bitch
@ruemara:
ALL OF THIS.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
You’re right, he wasn’t.
When he came out, he wasn’t even in the Army. He wasn’t even active duty. He was a reservist in the New York National Guard.
Some people think he was yanked out of the front lines of a combat unit, when he was actually leading a civilian life in manhattan.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I am a lesbian, and I favor slow, incremental change because it actually lasts. It is more likely to be permanent. Sudden change causes a backlash that can leave you worse off than where you started, and can result in people getting killed.
Also, Trurl is an idiot, who can’t tell the difference between luke-warm supporters and people who are trying to destroy us.
FlipYrWhig
And that was how radfems succeeded in making so many people understand the power of the patriarchy. It was such a resounding triumph for feminism that you hardly at all hear women say, “I don’t want to sound like some kind of feminist, but…”
urizon
I think the White House arrests had a major impact on the pace this process took. It also helped move the public on the issue.
Come on, folks; this is like Midwest Academy-101.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
.
I think that had more to do with indies and long term realignments than the “Left” attacking them or not voting for them. I mean more along the lines of, when Claire McCaskill poses for pictures with John Cornyn and I forget which other GOP Senator to announce her support for a non-existent plan to get to undermine HRC in the name of the appearance of Reasonableness, let her hear about it, politely, from her constituents. Mark Udall and several others backed off from Evan Bayh’s Senate Blue Dog caucus in a hurry when he heard from constituents. I personally think just in terms of numbers, the internet progressive community is smaller than we sometimes think inside of it (about ten percent of registered voters follow political blogs, IIRC), but it’s far more effective as an organizing tool than as a rending-of-virtual-garments echo chamber. Oddly enough, as far as the insistently disappointed are concerned, I think the converted zealot Arianna Huffington may have the biggest audience outside the ‘tubes. Maybe Olbermann.
Martin
Yeah, it’s C-CPI-U vs CPI-U – the newish chained urban consumer index, not the fixed basket urban consumer or the wage earner one. Do they still do clerical?
No changes to future benefits or enrollment in the Conrad plan, and it appears to set a permanent 60 vote threshold on such changes, which would be independent of the budget itself. A common thread through the Conrad plan is a much clearer decoupling between SS/Medicare and the general budget – both procedurally and in terms of funding. Basically, all entitlement savings must be returned to the trust, as well as all general budgetary saving must be retained (no finding new uses for the money). It’s lot a lot of ‘lock box’ vibe to it.
Yeah, but assuming my math is correct, SS payments relative to the poverty line have reliably gone up for 40 years. Even after subtracting out average out-of-pocket medical costs for those 65+ from those payments, it’s still going up, though more slowly, and is ~110% of the poverty level, after removing medical costs.
It’s all in the Conrad deficit reduction proposal.
stuckinred
Choi is a fucking West Point lifer, fuck him.
Culture of Truth
The critics of the critics have been sacked.
FlipYrWhig
Is there ever such thing as a bad impact from activist tactics, or moving the public in the opposite direction?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Sacked like Rome, sacked like Jay Cutler, or sacked like Rebekah Brooks?
dr. bloor
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but it is worth noting that Choi was a graduate of West Point, i.e., a real deal military guy. He’s not some guy who got money for college by playing soldier for a few weekends out of every year.
boss bitch
@urizon:
what White House arrests?
Dennis SGMM
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century):
Because we’re running out of people against whom we can openly discriminate?
In the 19th century the list included people of color, non-Anglo foreigners, Jews, and the openly gay. Over time that list has been whittled down to practically nothing. Discrimination is more American than apple pie (The krauts invented that one). It has a long and rich history of implementation and acceptance. You can’t expect people to surrender their traditions overnight.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
“I think the White House arrests had a major impact on the pace this process took. It also helped move the public on the issue.”
If you believe that, address this:
a) people get arrested in front of the white house all the time, protesting various issues. why don’t their arrests make any impact on policy?
b) if yelling and screaming is so effective why was DADT enacted in the first place, and if yelling and screaming is so effective why did it take 18 years to overturn it?
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
The moooslims say, hello.
shortstop
No. It’s like praying. If the thing you’re praying for happens, it’s because of your prayer, and if it doesn’t, it’s because you prayed insufficiently or unbelievers failed to join you on their knees.
OzoneR
Didn’t say I’ve been mocked “HERE” for the past three years, did I?
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
“I think the White House arrests had a major impact on the pace this process took. It also helped move the public on the issue.”
I just remembered — CODE PINK! Their arrests are so effective.
OzoneR
Reality says otherwise.
Corner Stone
@OzoneR:
No, and that’s a good point. Undoubtedly you’re mocked pretty much everywhere you go.
Corner Stone
@stuckinred:
In your world, what does this epithet mean?
Dennis SGMM
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century):
I didn’t write that we were out of people against whom we could openly discriminate, I wrote that the list is being whittled away. Don’t be obtuse.
Corner Stone
@Martin:
After removing medical costs?
Bobby Thomson
@emotroll, I mean trurl:
FTFY.
Culture of Truth
And the Jeopardy category is “Angry People In Tricorn Hats”
different church-lady
You’re officially a comedy act now.
General Stuck
Bullshit, by all accounts Obama from day one began a drive to repeal DADT, by quietly coopting the current military brass and others to back a drive to get that odious law repealed. It was successful, but pure flowers on the left won’t give him credit for anything that happens they like.
I’m sick of your self absorbed asses.
Martin
Yes. To be clear from what I said earlier in the paragraph, subtracting out average out-of-pocket medical costs for those 65+ from SS payments leaves them a bit below 110% of the one-person poverty line. A decade ago payments were about four percentage points closer to the poverty line at the time, also with average out-of-pocket costs subtracted out, so even with out-of-pocket costs accounted for, payments have increased slightly faster than inflation.
That still leaves a problem for people with not-average out-of-pocket medical costs, but SS isn’t a solution for them (unless we’re going to means test). HCR is the better solution. I don’t see anything in Conrads proposal, but Obama has proposed some improvements for dual eligible seniors, which would be that category.
different church-lady
@ dr. bloor (66):
It ain’t jobs, that’s for sure.
jl
@125: thanks for explanation and link. The link I had only had the first page, which did not give enough detail.
Your math on SS COLA and poverty level is correct, but I think the problem is as likely to be the crude calculations the US uses for the poverty level as problems with SS COLA. So I think the truth is unknown.
The past gaming I talked about was the Boskin commission.
The BLS still uses the name ‘urban wage earners and clerical workers’. And consensus is that it overestimates increases in the cost of living for many people, particularly anyone who is a home owner.
I do not believe there is consensus that the Boskin Commission did an adequate analysis, unless the criterion is whether you could find a reason to reduce payouts. But admittedly, I have not checked in past couple of years.
slag
Having read both the Dday and the Digby arguments, gotta say that I agree with both of them. Or I would if I felt that liberals and progressives were at all capable of directing our disappointment in a productive direction. But we’re not. Which is one reason why the whole discussion is pointless.
Whether it be charging headlong into the breach of disappointment or hewing closely to compromise, liberals and progressives are each just gonna do what we’re going to do regardless of what the President, Digby, or Dday say. So, fuck ’em. Disorder and inefficacy are equally valid life choices.
Culture of Truth
To be clear, what I meant was the tea party are increasingly angry because the number of acceptable people to hate keeps narrowing
Bizarro FDR
It is a Democratic president who is the driving force now behind cutting Medicare and Social Security benefits. It is a Democratic President who feels that deficit reduction during a recession and keeping tax rates at near-historic lows are both much more important policy goals than protecting Social Security and Medicare benefits.
different church-lady
You see? Obama is so damn inept at using the bully pulpit that he’s actually broken it! It will never work right again!
(Hey, I’d better cut this out. It’s enough fun that I might start to like it…)
Dennis SGMM
@Culture of Truth:
And that may explain some of the unreasoning rage on the part of people who have, by and large, reaped most of the benefits of being an American.
Pat
By making Medicare and Social Security cuts something a Democratic president is now actively pushing for, it damages a core part of Democratic brand. Protecting Social Security is the message that helped Democrats win back power in 2006.
different church-lady
(emphasis mine)
Man, you almost slipped that snark right by me. Nicely done.
shortstop
Well, okay, but I still think it’s acceptable to have mucho contempt for morans in knee breeches carrying Gadsden flags.
different church-lady
What is the name of a Billy Preston hit single from 1973?
Infinite loops for $400, Alex.
FDR didn’t have an eye-Phone or a Twitttter account.
Anya
@celticdragonchick
There are many honorable solders who lost their career because of this discriminatory policy but you don’t see them calling the President “worst president in U.S. history” or using misogynistic vitriol against Harry Reid.
Advocacy and criticism are a major component of democracy. And no one is arguing that President Obama should not be be criticized or face any pressure from the base. But there is a difference between the fury and hate that Dan Choi and Aravosis (a racist asshole) direct toward the President and the fierce advocacy of the HRC and honorable solders like Jonathan Hopkins (who makes me wish I was a gay man)
shortstop
That’s part of it, but teabaggers have mostly never stopped hating on all those groups; they just don’t use the same words in public they used to (though they’re certainly resentful that they can’t). I think their unreasoning anger has more to do with the fact that the pie is shrinking and they cannot be honest enough with themselves to blame the people who are really responsible for killing the middle class: the people who look like them, share their religion, have similar last names but make a hell of a lot more money than they do. They will sell their own children and grandchildren down the river before they’ll admit the true causes of our economic, environmental, educational, and healthcare crises. It’s just not in them to back away from a bad position.
Thus, it’s always The Other’s fault; The Other is the real societal mooch, the one who “doesn’t deserve” what he/she has and who only has it at the direct expense of Mr. Bagger. Meanwhile, demographics are changing; we’re on our way to being a minority-white nation and there’s a black guy in the White House! Who probably got there through affirmative action and isn’t even a citizen! Fucking “tolerant” liberals, ruining this country!
different church-lady
You make that sound so dirty.
Danny
Trurl @ 55
I’ll find something to pout about, just watch me.
Sly
@Pat:
King was merely molding consensus when he demanded that segregated buses be kept, only that blacks wouldn’t be forced to stand if the white section was full. And, again, he was clearly molding consensus when he had ex-communist and homosexual Bayard Rustin ushered out of Montgomery in the trunk of a car so the movement wouldn’t be seen as “tainted.” And, thankfully, you can still ask John Lewis how King molded consensus by telling him he wasn’t going to be allowed to speak at the ’63 march unless he toned down the Kennedy-bashing.
Danny
@Joe
Bullshit. People like Choi and Aravosis knows jack shit about moving Overton Windows. What you’re supposed to do is get your pitch out before the populace at large, but they and the rest of the nutroots never managed to get the attention of anyone but the left wing of the democratic party.
Who managed to move the Overton window effectively, in recent history?
Why, movement conservatives did. But movement conservatism never went for bitching at republican presidents as their prime – sole even – strategy. Bill Buckley actually helped kick the Birchers out of the conservative movement when they went after Ike (and Ike was a no brainer RINO in comparison to Goldwater). Instead movement conservatives took their pitch before the american public. Focus on the family, talk radio, Magnum Force, FoxNews. If they weren’t able to get coverage at first, they found a way.
But not by cannibalizing on themselves by shooting down leading republicans to get cheap attention within the movement or promote visibility of a few individuals. That’s behavior that only started gaining currency with GHWB and “read my lips”, which incidentally marks the first weak signs of what by now has grown into a fully fledged conservative pathology, with the rise of the teabaggers.
OzoneR
I don’t see the difference.
OzoneR
Did the Iraq War like not happen?
taylormattd
@ Joe – 64
You obviously don’t follow Choi’s facebook page, where he literally said there was no difference between Bush and Obama on gay issues.
Keith G
@Danny
You are outlining the impotence of the Democrats as a force for change. The Democratic “philosophers” enunciate policy from the top of the pyramid to others who are also at the top. The base gets to watch, but are seldom included.
Three decade of a de-energized Democratic base has left our polity in horrible shape.
gwangung
I think that has a great deal of truth. What’s more, I think that style gets copied, unthinkingly, by a lot of progressive elements.
Danny
@Keith G
Yes and no. The president isn’t supposed to be an avant garde advocate that convinces the country to jump aboard. Neither is Harry Reid supposed to. Thats a really lazy and stupid misconception that’s been festering for a long time among liberals.
Hamsher, Choi, Greenwald et al would all be useful if they spent their time figuring out how to make themselves and the ideas they share with you, me and the president relevant for 51% of americans. Or if not 51%, then 10% or 5% or even 1% who weren’t already true blue. Without attacking the president or any other high profile ally.
That’s their job description, in a lean, mean and healthy movement.
Fratricide is the lazy option to get coverage and build profile because it feeds off and reinforces media narratives like chaos among democrats and liberals. Jane, Glenn and Dan are invited on FoxNews to trash the president.
There are many individuals and organisations that work hard to champion gay rights, but they all get far less coverage than the loonies. That’s the weakness right there: we have an easier time getting our message out when we feed on our own.
At this moment 85% of liberal democrats approve of the president (according to Gallup). But representatives of the remaining 15% get to be talking heads on tv, bashing the president on gay rights. That’s the weakness.
Conservatives found ways to go mainstream with their preferred narratives, and the way they did that was working their ass off from 1964 up until now, and figuring out how their message was relevant to large groups of americans.
There’s no free lunch. But there sure are people who will pretend they’re offering a free lunch if there’s something in it for them – like Hamsher and others who are peddling their versions of the magical Overton strategy, the magical Bully Pulpit, Obama as traitor and what have you.
Sly
@Keith G:
After 1968, the only logical response to that trend is “Thank Fucking Christ.”
Danny
@Sly
And 1972. And 1980. And 2000.
No point pursuing more progressive Presidents or candidates for President if you’re to lazy or stupid to get the country on the same page.
ruemara
different church lady
If you do it right, it is.
different church-lady
They would be useful if somehow they could do things so the take away was how good their ideas were, rather than how angry they are.
But they don’t see the need to do that, because they are already convinced that more than 51% of Americans agree with them, and the only thing standing in the way is these stupid Democrats.
Danny
@Church-lady
Exactly.
Lost in all the give-and-take about whether the president is a full blown secret conservative or only a bad negotiator is the small fact that all those polls showing the republicans out of step on revenue also show our (yours and mine and the nutroots) preferred deficit reduction strategy – allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire, e.g. only raising revenue – enjoys < 5% support. It's right there in all the polls, but you won't read it on any blog because it's not really in any of our interest to focus on that right now, and the nutroots specifically has no interest acknowledging that maybe we still haven't quite figured out how to pitch to the public.
How about some true progressives doing some actual advocating to those people who need convincing – without bringing the president or democrats up at all?
I don't think it's quite as bad as <5% in reality, but the President is no idiot when he focuses on the most compelling case he's got to try to end tax hikes as third rail in this country: taxing the rich and corporate jets. Baby steps.
gwangung
Eeep.
Isn’t that kinda important? Doesn’t a President need to keep that in mind?
Keith G
@Danny
You may have mistook part of my point. President Obama, Reid, et al certainly have a role, but the Democratic Party seems to need better middle managers and POS personnel.
To totally mix metaphors, the GOP trenches have been a hotbed of talent and policy development. This has not always turned out in their favor, but they keep plugging away with a great deal of attention to their local political farm teams.
For a while, it looked as if Howard Dean had some ideas that could be very useful for us, but those have not been continued it seems. So instead, we have beltway celebrities debating over policy and meanwhile what should be the grass roots goes to weeds.
Slight edit
Danny
@Keith G
Well yeah, but the Movement Conservatism != The Republican Party, even though Movement Conservatism is supremely focused on getting republican politicians elected. That’s by design.
So we don’t need “Democrats” to do this or that, we need independent but allied entities that are effective in pushing our narratives. Or rather, we need to build on what we have obviously (because we do have them), but we need to up our game.