Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Motown is Joe-Town!

We still have time to mess this up!

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

When you’re a Republican, they let you do it.

Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” is supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Republicans in disarray!

“Loving your country does not mean lying about it’s history.”

You cannot shame the shameless.

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Second rate reporter says what?

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

“woke” is the new caravan.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

People really shouldn’t expect the government to help after they watched the GOP drown it in a bathtub.

When do the post office & the dmv weigh in on the wuhan virus?

You are here: Home / Politics / Politicans / David Brooks Giving A Seminar At The Aspen Institute / The invisible hand of Jesus

The invisible hand of Jesus

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Glibertarianism and Christianism are now as one (via Wonkette):

About one in five Americans combine a view of God as actively engaged in daily workings of the world with an economic conservative view that opposes government regulation and champions the free market as a matter of faith.

“They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work,” says sociologist Paul Froese, co-author of the Baylor Religion Survey, released today by Baylor University in Waco, Texas.

[….]

Most (81%) political conservatives say there is one “ultimate truth in the world, and new economic information of cost-benefit analysis is not going to change their mind about how the economy should work,” Froese says.

[….]

This is a distinctly American cultural finding and specific to this point in history. It was different in the past, it might be different in the future and it’s different now in Western Europe, Froese says.

I’d like to see the data about how this was different in the past, but I can’t find it (here’s a link to the survey itself).

Reader Interactions

175Comments

  1. 1.

    BGinCHI

    Jesus is gonna be pissed when he finds out about this.

    Dude, at least smite some moneylenders if you aren’t going to multiply some loaves and fishes.

  5. 5.

    Judas Escargot

    The Rand-Virus and the Christ-Virus (despite their apparent incompatibility) have somehow interbred.

    This is one virulent, nasty, destructive strain that will take decades to contain.

  7. 7.

    Dave

    Yeah, like God gives a shit if Walmart makes their third-quarter sales goals. If we can’t purge this idiocy from the body politic, we are screwed.

  8. 8.

    Short Bus Bully

    The cognitive dissonance of this crowd (including people like my father-in-law) is absolutely deafening. To incorporate all these fucked up faiths into one basket of shit is astonishing.

    People bitch and moan about low information voters and the like, that Obama doesn’t stay on message enough, blah, blah, blah… But how the fuck are we supposed to compete with kind of suicide cultist mentality?

  10. 10.

    James Gary

    This is the same “Gospel Of Success” that first appeared in the Gilded Age, and is used for the same purpose–justifying massively lopsided distribution of wealth.

    I can’t offer statistics on what fraction of the population has historically agreed with it, but it’s not some new phenomenon. I imagine its popularity correlates directly with the nation’s wealth inequality.

  12. 12.

    Linda Featheringill

    @MikeJ:

    American Christians actually worship Mammon.

    Well some. Maybe we should say christianists worship Mammon.

    And since Jesus himself is credited with saying that you can’t worship God and Mammon at the same time, I’ll guess that these folks made a choice.

    Meanwhile, a lot of other folks are just trying to maintain a good relationship with their God.

  13. 13.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    No surprise really, Glibetarianism and Prosperity Christianity are both just arguments for personal greed. Only a matter of time before they decided John Galt is Jesus Christ.

  16. 16.

    Yutsano

    @MikeJ:

    Conservative American Christians actually worship Mammon.

    Slight adjustment, since that leads to my point: with the full blessing of their highly political and politicized pastors.

    (I’ll split it up to see what the problem is)

  17. 17.

    Brachiator

    About one in five Americans combine a view of God as actively engaged in daily workings of the world with an economic conservative view that opposes government regulation and champions the free market as a matter of faith.

    CEO Christ! The United States of America has officially gone insane.

    Praise Him.

    (possibly slightly arcane Doctor Who reference)

  19. 19.

    Holden Pattern

    American conservatism has been de facto dominionism for a decade or more now. This is unsurprising.

  23. 23.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work

    Meet the new WWJD: Who would Jesus downsize?

  24. 24.

    TooManyJens

    Most (81%) political conservatives say there is one “ultimate truth in the world, and new economic information of cost-benefit analysis is not going to change their mind about how the economy should work,” Froese says.

    Not that we didn’t know this already, but it’s really horrifying to see how widespread this “I’ve made up my mind, don’t confuse me with the facts” mentality is.

  27. 27.

    Winston Smith

    So… all that stuff about people actually considering the Invisible Hand of the Free Market an actual deity is no longer satire, but fact.

    Luckily they won’t have churches. I mean, to have churches, you need a sabbath to worship on, and anyone who doesn’t work seven days a week obviously doesn’t deserve the poverty wages they’re already making!

  28. 28.

    Culture of Truth

    I’d like to see The Ten Commandments remade with Pharaoh as a successful undertaxed job creator

  33. 33.

    celtidragonchick

    @TooManyJens:

    Not that we didn’t know this already, but it’s really horrifying to see how widespread this “I’ve made up my mind, don’t confuse me with the facts” mentality is.

    My Mom had a bumper sticker that summed this up:

    God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

    Of course, discussion becomes absolutely impossible.

  36. 36.

    dr. bloor

    @Joel:

    I read that too quickly the first time. I was almost going to demand an apology on behalf of dumbshit invertebrates.

  37. 37.

    celtidragonchick

    @Culture of Truth:

    I’d like to see The Ten Commandments remade with Pharaoh as a successful undertaxed job creator

    Knocking down the walls of Jericho and butchering the population was God’s punishment for insufficient Homeland Defense spending.

  41. 41.

    kerFuFFler

    @Syphon:

    Meh. It’s only 20%. That’s even less than the Crazification Factor.

    Only because a lot of the crazies have never even heard of Adam Smith’s ‘invisible hand’.

  42. 42.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Winston Smith:

    So… all that stuff about people actually considering the Invisible Hand of the Free Market an actual deity is no longer satire, but fact.

    I’m generally a tolerant person when it comes to metaphysical debates and normally I wouldn’t mind this new oddball religion of Deitus Marketus so much, if it didn’t require so much in the way of human sacrifice.

  43. 43.

    The Republic of Stupidity

    It was different in the past, it might be different in the future and it’s different now in Western Europe, Froese says.

    It’s also certainly different from those of us who simply insist on being members of the reality-based community, that’s for sure…

    Those folks are so farking stupid it makes my teeth hurt…

  44. 44.

    Chris

    They think the economy works because God wants it to work. It’s a new religious economic idealism

    These are the same guys who think they failed their math exam because God wanted them to fail, rather than because they were busy watching porn, surfing the Internet and playing video games when they should’ve been studying.

  45. 45.

    Paul in KY

    @Short Bus Bully: I go with bemused derision. The President can’t, but other members of staff/cabinet can.

    Point out situations where innocent people have terrible things happen to them, if God is micromanaging the ‘good’, then he must be micromanaging the ‘bad’ as well.

  46. 46.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    @Joel:

    In other words, one of five Americans is an inveterate dumbshit.

    And has been since the Declaration of Independence. And will be 200 years from now…assuming the USofA is still around. Oh, and the species.

  52. 52.

    The Republic of Stupidity

    @Judas Escargot:

    This is one virulent, nasty, destructive strain that will take decades to contain.

    As a long-time lover & student of film, it’s my learned opinion that films in some way tend to reflect what’s going on around us in the world at any given time… which would explain why a flick like Contagion just happened to come out right now…

  53. 53.

    ThresherK

    Compared to how people always thought this way, my instinct tells me the modern iteration of that 20% are only well-off enough to think this way thanks to a few generations of them nasty, ebbil commonist policies. Hey, if Medicare is good enough for an athiest and objectivist like Ayn Rand, taking all these “handouts” is good enough for these folks.

  54. 54.

    patrick II

    I have been telling friends for awhile now that the right has been conflating the invisible hand of Adam Smith with God’s invisible hand. A convenient fact for them is that it absolves them of responsibility for market shortcomings. 45,000 people died last year because of our poor health care system? God and the market’s unchangeable, natural will. There is nothing we should do about it. If those sick people had contributed enough in God and the markets eyes they would have been able to afford health care.

    Going against such natural order is not only stealing from those who can righteously afford health care, but sinful. Faith in God’s hand through economics has a lot to do with what most of us perceive to be irrational umbrage taken when they perceive interference in any (of God’s) markets — let alone health care.

  56. 56.

    The Republic of Stupidity

    @Paul in KY:

    … if God is micromanaging the ‘good’, then he must be micromanaging the ‘bad’ as well.

    No no no… outsourced to Satan… more economically efficient that way… free markets blah blah blah…

  57. 57.

    Brachiator

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage: RE: In other words, one of five Americans is an inveterate dumbshit.

    And has been since the Declaration of Independence. And will be 200 years from now…assuming the USofA is still around. Oh, and the species.

    I think that most people in any country are dumbshits. But in America, we have a constitutional right to be the most ignorant mofos on the planet.

  59. 59.

    4tehlulz

    It’s a good thing Christianity never was used to justify slavery, or else I’d think the author didn’t know her history.

  61. 61.

    Paul in KY

    @celtidragonchick: Thank you for the link. Through it I was able to read about the Browning poem ‘Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came’ (I’m a big fan of Mr. King’s ‘Dark Tower’ series) and then about the old ‘Song of Roland’ poem.

    Lots of cool info in teh internets :-)

  65. 65.

    Brachiator

    @The Republic of Stupidity:

    As a long-time lover & student of film, it’s my learned opinion that films in some way tend to reflect what’s going on around us in the world at any given time… which would explain why a flick like Contagion just happened to come out right now…

    This year’s Contagion is 1971’s Andromeda Strain.

  66. 66.

    Southern Beale

    Another stupid survey saying stupid stuff.

    “They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work” ….

    And yet, they deny evolution. Which is basically what the “free hand of the market” is, distilled down to its essence: survival of the economic fittest.

    Morons.

  67. 67.

    Triassic Sands

    They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work…

    They’re lucky breathing doesn’t require thought — otherwise they’d suffocate.

    If the free market is “God” at work on Earth, then that “God” is even worse than the racist, genocidal maniac of the Old Testament. That “God” is a petty, malevolent sadist. What’s next, a Heaven in which small animals are tortured for fun?

  68. 68.

    Villago Delenda Est

    If this were Europe, say 300 years ago, these assholes would be rounded up and dealt with as heretics.

    They are scum, pure and simple. Every last one of them.

  69. 69.

    Bnad

    @celtidragonchick: A good question for the Just World 20% crowd: when a person dies in an accident, at what age does it stop being God calling His innocents home, and start being a lazy idiot who got what he deserved? 18? 21? 12?

  70. 70.

    MariedeGournay

    Oh yea scribes and Pharisees, thou hypocrites:

    “So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”

    Striving and searching for spiritual justification for the only virtue that matters: “I got mine, fuck you.”

  71. 71.

    Raven (formerly stuckinred)

    OT but there are enough of you that may care:

    “To our Fans and Friends: As R.E.M., and as lifelong friends and co-conspirators, we have decided to call it a day as a band. We walk away with a great sense of gratitude, of finality, and of astonishment at all we have accomplished. To anyone who ever felt touched by our music, our deepest thanks for listening.” R.E.M.

  72. 72.

    Southern Beale

    Let me add, I’m so tired of survey after survey delving into the mind of the political conservative. I just read about this poll of South Carolina Republicans. Amazingly, they’re all birthers who believe Obama is a Muslim S0c1al1st.

    Look, people: here’s a poll of one southern Liberal. An amazing 100% of one southern Liberal say that conservatives are FUCKING IDIOTS who will believe whatever it FEELS GOOD to believe. And if that means Free Market Jesus walking hand in hand with Rifle Jesus and Republican Jesus, then THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL GET because these people are going by what feels good, not what is factual or logical or what experts say.

    I’m fucking sick of listening to these morons. Go rent “Idiocracy” and prepare for the America of the future.

    /rant

  73. 73.

    Chad N Freude

    @celtidragonchick:

    God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

    Gee, Mom, did God say it directly to you? You heard Him say it? Oh, you were told it by someone you trust. OK, did he hear God say it? Oh, he read it in an authoritative text. Who was the author of the text, God? Well, God is credited as the author, but what He said was actually transcribed by someone who heard God say it, or perhaps heard it from someone who heard God say it, or [recurse ad infinitum].

    OK, I guess that’s a good reason to believe it. But why are you so certain that God actually did say it?

  74. 74.

    Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)

    So, let’s have a show of hands, here. Are we screwed?

    Truth is, I don’t know. This is my country, and I desperately want to believe we can save it from its own citizens, but I just don’t know.

    One other thing I was wondering, should we here try to “update” Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount? I know these assholes believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and all that, but that Sermon on the Mount crap, that must be something some godless liberal or soçialist threw in there. I just can’t see Free Market Jesus saying anything like that.

    Maybe is should read:

    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye stole the few crumbs I had; I was thirsty, and ye told Me to get a job and whined that the Kochs’ taxes are too high; I was a stranger, and ye told Me ye don’t serve My kind here and then called the I.N.S.; naked, and ye had Me arrested for indecent exposure; I was sick, and ye told Me I should die for lack of insurance; I was in prison, and ye cheered to have Me put to death.” Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and take Your last few crumbs, or thirsty and tell You to get a job? When did we see You a stranger and turn You into the I.N.S., or naked and have You arrested, Or when did we see You sick and mock You, or in prison, and cheer Your execution? And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, those assholes deserved it.”

    Then He will also say to those on His left, “Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; For I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in: naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.” “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?” And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you rewarded lazy deadbeats who deserve only hatred and scorn.”

  75. 75.

    Ian

    They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work

    Mmk this wins the stupidest thing I have read today.

  76. 76.

    Kola Noscopy

    It’s been said many times, many ways, but I’ll give it another go: If Jesus Christ were to walk the earth again today as he once did, these religio-freaks would string him up all over again, with no sense of irony.

  78. 78.

    jibeaux

    They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work

    I’m a little freaked out at God’s tremendous interest in pron, if that’s the case.

  79. 79.

    Gilles de Rais

    “They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work,”

    I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, but I can easily prove there is no such thing as a “free market”.

    I keep expecting these people to pay a terrible price for their stupidity and belief in things that don’t exist, and yet they keep on crossing streets without getting run over, having kids without killing them through negligence, keep on feeding themselves without choking to death, manage to plug in appliances without licking the outlet…I don’t get it, I really don’t.

    Idiocracy was supposed to be a comedy, not a real-time documentary.

  82. 82.

    Jay in Oregon

    I’m reminded of something I read elsewhere:

    http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/417/John-Robb-on-War-Peace-and-Resil-page06.html

    My students were former child soldiers. Let me say that after the schools had been out of business for more than 10 years, say starting around 1990, the wars were more like Lord of the Flies with pickup trucks, automatic rifles, light and heavy machineguns, and mortars. Liberia is perhaps the only country on earth that can truly say, “Made in the U.S.A.” And we abandoned those folks. I’m going back when the bureaucracy at UNODC sorts things out and approves our next grant.
    __
    Illiterate 20-somethings leading uneducated armed bands of teens and children across the countryside, enticed by rice and magic. And some drugs, it’s true, but chiefly rice and magic. These were hungry children empowered by an AK-47 and some sadistic charismatic leaders.
    __
    Funny how quickly a new generation will believe in the power of magic in as few as 10 or 12 years after the schools close.

  86. 86.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.): Years ago, on DU, there was a thread-cum-contest for an elevator pitch — a sales presentation that could be delivered in the space of an elevator ride — for the fundamental premise behind the Democratic party and platform, at least when it was on its game. (In other words, in a Ben-Nelson-free world.)

    The winner was “Matthew 25:41”.

  88. 88.

    Brachiator

    @jibeaux: RE: They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work

    I’m a little freaked out at God’s tremendous interest in pron, if that’s the case.

    I don’t think that’s the same hand…

  89. 89.

    gnomedad

    @trollhattan:

    Also, too, IIUC David Frum, supporting the nanny state.

    OK, Juicers, this is David Frum and all, but this is very well put:

    What you are hearing here is the secret of the Tea Party. Americans do not clearly distinguish in their minds between “rights” in the James Madison sense and what we might call “folkways.” The ability to live in a large suburban house, drive to work on a highway without tolls, buy a sausage and egg biscuit for a dollar, eat in the car, park for free at the office, and send the bill for any negative consequence to a solvent Medicare program – there are many people to whom that pattern of life means more than trial by jury or even freedom of the press. Like all of us, such people want to keep what they have – and bitterly resent anyone or anything that forces change.

  91. 91.

    Southern Beale

    @Joel:

    In other words, one of five Americans is an inveterate dumbshit.

    Yes but the good news is that 4 out of 5 Americans are not.

    1 in 5, that’s 20% .. the same 20% who believe the same conservative Tea Party crackpot shit we’ve always had. The same 20% who thought Bush was doing a great job, still thought Iraq had WMDs, believe in death panels and all of that other crap.

    We’ve had this conversation before. It’s the SAME PEOPLE. They are not going away. We’re just for some reason really interested in them these days, and I can’t imagine why.

  92. 92.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @jibeaux:

    What do you think the Invisible Hand does with its spare time, when nobody is looking? All work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy.

  93. 93.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @ m_c: By your logic, if you believe that Allah created the world, you are a creationist of a kind.

  94. 94.

    Brian R.

    It’s been a long while since I was in Catholic school, but I don’t remember the central message of Christianity being “get rich or die tryin'”

  95. 95.

    The Republic of Stupidity

    @Brachiator:

    True…

    Go back and look at The Andromeda Strain…

    Then look at what was going on in the world at the time, especially this country…

    And take note of who wrote the book…

  96. 96.

    Loneoak

    @Southern Beale:

    Almost 30 percent of those surveyed said they believed that Obama was a Muslim. Obama maintains that he is a practicing Christian.

    Well, there’s a fine example of dumb-as-shit reporting. “Obama maintains” that isn’t a Lizard Person also, but I guess it’s he-said she-said since at least one person says otherwise.

  99. 99.

    Southern Beale

    @Loneoak:

    Well, there’s a fine example of dumb-as-shit reporting. “Obama maintains” that isn’t a Lizard Person also, but I guess it’s he-said she-said since at least one person says otherwise.

    Good catch.

  100. 100.

    Satanicpanic

    This has always been my problem with the invisible hand- if it’s beyond our control, then it sure starts to sound like god. I never thought that people would start making that explicit argument.

  104. 104.

    Brian R.

    @Loneoak:

    “Obama maintains” that isn’t a Lizard Person also, but I guess it’s he-said she-said since at least one person says otherwise.

    Whenever I read that kind of reporting, I feel like sending the author a fake press release about them.

    “1 in 4 members of my household believe that John Jones likes to skull-fuck dead kittens, but John Jones maintains that he does not.”

  105. 105.

    Comrade Dread

    This is the same Jesus that lived under an oppressive authoritarian regime where freedom was scarce to nonexistent and he said:

    Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars and render to God what is God’s.

    Paid a Temple Tax (albeit in an unusual way)

    Said that if the government coerced you into carrying a soldier’s gear for a mile that you should voluntarily go two

    Threw out those who were profiteering off of the poor who wanted to worship God

    And repeatedly told people that His Kingdom was not of this world.

    I’d like to posit that Jesus isn’t particularly concerned with whether you have a controlled economy or a free market or a blend of the two, so long as people follow him and his example.

  106. 106.

    scav

    Oh, and as a typographical comment, the words of their CEO in their Bible(tm) are highlighted in green rather than red for obvious reasons.

  109. 109.

    andy

    Who said this- cash and carry Jesus or peace, love, and beads Jesus:

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and do many mighty works in Your Name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you evildoers.'” (Matthew 7:15-23 RSV)

  110. 110.

    Brachiator

    @The Republic of Stupidity:

    And take note of who wrote the book…

    But the movie was directed by Robert Wise. And I don’t think that 1971 was much like 2011, unless you are just trying to say that every era has its paranoid preoccupations.

  115. 115.

    ericblair

    @gnomedad:

    What you are hearing here is the secret of the Tea Party. Americans do not clearly distinguish in their minds between “rights” in the James Madison sense and what we might call “folkways.”

    Frum will wander off the reservation and say intelligent things from time to time before he remembers who owns the gravy train. There’s a serious tendency among us political junkies to overestimate how much a lot of people understand about the very basics of government. “Rights” are just the Way We Have Always Done Things, “Economy” is, as above, the way we are rewarded by money for our righteousness or lack thereof, and so on. You can drive yourself nuts trying to explain things to people who are speaking a totally different language.

  116. 116.

    Raven (formerly stuckinred)

    @Paula: They were just taking off when I moved here. They have done a great deal for Athens but, Hey Hey My My.

    “Mike, Michael, Bill, Bertis, and I walk away as great friends. I know I will be seeing them in the future, just as I know I will be seeing everyone who has followed us and supported us through the years. Even if it’s only in the vinyl aisle of your local record store, or standing at the back of the club: watching a group of 19 year olds trying to change the world.”

  117. 117.

    RalfW

    It’s really just economic Calvinism, really, not Galt+Jebus.

    If you’re poor, it’s because you’re sinful. If you’re rich, it’s because g*d decided you’re part of the elect. And since it’s clear that g*d loves the elect, taxes should be low on the rich, and high on the working classes, since they’re doomed anyway, why enjoy this life?

  119. 119.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @kerFuFFler:

    It’s very possible to troll glibertarian chat rooms and newsgroups with quotes from The Wealth of Nations and be denounced as a rabid Marxist.

    These assholes have OBVIOUSLY never read and understood Smith.

  120. 120.

    Paula

    @cintibud:

    “if a person does not work he will not eat. Now before you scream and holler here I admit that there are some very, very unfortunate people out there who absolutely cannot work and cannot take due care of themselves or their family. I am not in any way talking about that. I am talking about able-bodied people who can work and are able to work. God never focused on hand outs folks. He glorified work. God never gave us a gospel of ‘entitlement’. The only thing that is actually ‘free’ is grace! Yet, it cost God and cost His Son Jesus. We don’t need to give people handouts (on a regular basis). That teaches laziness. What we need to do in this country is to maintain the right approach…lending a helping hand to our hurting neighbor, the poor, the disenfranchised. Let’s teach our citizens how to work.”

    The comments on that article are depressing.

  121. 121.

    ed drone

    @celtidragonchick:

    “Meet the new WWJD: Who would Jesus downsize?”

    Easy. All those non-Galty slackers who coincidentally have brown skins.

    No coincidence there, bub! They’re slackers and idlers and the undeserving poor beacause they have brown skin. It’s in the DNA (although scientificky things like DNA and such aren’t in the Bible, so they’re suspect, unless vouched for by a TV preacher with a Rolex on his arm).

    Ed

  122. 122.

    28 Percent

    That survey gives me the set-up creeps. The question on unemployment, especially, positing a healthy person who is turning down work, should they still collect unemployment? Well, why is that even being asked? Unemployment stops covering you if you turn down a job offer that’s in the ballpark of the job you were in before. And then there’s this:

    •49% say “the government in Washington is trying to do too many things that should be left to individuals and private businesses.”

    Well, do 51% disagree with that statement? Is the general opinion divided? Is that a trend towards or away from a strong government? And what kinds of things? But there it is with the frame, a whole lotta people are for a small government. Really? Whoodathunkit!

    That survey is covered with the stink of spin.

  123. 123.

    ed drone

    @dr. bloor:

    I read that too quickly the first time. I was almost going to demand an apology on behalf of dumbshit invertebrates.

    Actually, they’re the opposite of invertebrates, ’cause the bone of the spine continues right up between the ears.

    Ed

  124. 124.

    catclub

    @Brachiator: You may not have noticed the epitaph in the movie.

    A Caterpiller tractor knocks over the tree where the fruitbat lives so it can poop on the pig. Their virus DNA mix and voila’.

    The first transmission case is an employee of the Caterpiller
    (renamed) company and selling them in China.

    Andromeda Strain was from outer space. Contagion was karma.

  125. 125.

    SW

    20% of the population are greedy selfish assholes? And this is new? Well what might be new are the T-Shirts and the web sites that and the fact that they have organized themselves into a fucking ‘movement’ with victim status. But they are the same greedy assholes they have always been.

  126. 126.

    Citizen Alan

    @MikeJ:

    American Christians actually worship Mammon.

    Thank you for this. I have actually told conservo-christians to their faces that Jesus was pretty clear on the fact that God and Mammon were different, that you cannot serve both, and that Mammon was the WRONG CHOICE! Of course, I’ve also pissed some people off by suggesting that if the Antichrist ever did rise to power in our lifetimes, he would be a conservative Christian-Republican President who talked glowingly about how important Jesus has been in his life and how his faith leads him to believe that poor people should be crushed into a paste and how wars should be waged in Jesus’ name. Oh, and most American Christians will cheerfully vote for him.

  128. 128.

    Svensker

    @ericblair:

    “Rights” are just the Way We Have Always Done Things, “

    I got into an argument with wingnut Brother about railroads vs. cars — why it is BAD to subsidize one and GOOD to subsidize the other. After much backing and forthing when he was losing the argument, he finally said, “I got in my car last week and drove 300 miles at 75 mph on great roads and it was a lot of fun. That’s what freedom’s all about.”

    But somehow he believes that is a political and philosophical argument.

  129. 129.

    Svensker

    @RalfW:

    Economic Calvinism may be at play, but there’s also the conflation of the US with Jesus that is really troubling. Blasphemous, also.

  130. 130.

    SensesFail

    They say the invisible hand of the free market is really God at work…

    And yet, if you ask these people why “God” didn’t prevent a natural disaster, they will likely tell you that this kind of intervention would eliminate our “free will”.

  131. 131.

    Paul in KY

    @twiffer: Ah ha! That is when you must give the bad example as happening to a small child (sad as it will be) or someone that they can’t say that about (like some hero of theirs).

    I agree that if you talk about something bad happening to yourself, then they will immediately think of you as a DFH who deserved every bit of what you received.

  132. 132.

    Citizen Alan

    @celtidragonchick:

    God said it. I believe it. That settles it.
    —
    Of course, discussion becomes absolutely impossible.

    Not completely impossible, but you have to know the Bible well enough to respond. “What was it you think God said? Which verse? Here’s someone who’s read that verse and thinks it means something different — what makes your interpretation of the God’s Word more accurate than his?”

    The basic problem with American Christianity is that most American Christians are programmed to not think for themselves but to accept interpretations foisted on them by religious leaders who claim to have exclusive understanding of God’s meaning. Most Christians have never read the Bible in its entirety. An infinitesimal fraction have read the Bible in its original language. Consequently, the people who say “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.” are really saying

    “The Preacher said it. I don’t know enough about it to disagree. That settles it.”

  133. 133.

    ed drone

    @Kola Noscopy:
    Woody said that, a while ago.

    [Tune: Jesse James]

    This song was written in New York City
    Of rich man, preacher, and slave
    If Jesus was to preach what He preached in Galilee,
    They would lay poor Jesus in His grave.

    Ed

  135. 135.

    Southern Beale

    There go those pesky job creators again!

    EEOC sues Bass Pro alleging racial discrimination in hiring practices
    __
    The federal government has sued national outdoor retail chain Bass Pro Outdoor World alleging racial discrimination in its hiring practices dating back to 2005.
    __
    The Equal Opportunity Commission, a federal agency charged with enforcing anti-discrimination laws in employment, filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Houston today.
    __
    The lawsuit alleges that qualified African-Americans and Hispanics were routinely denied positions at Bass Pro stores and managers of stores in Houston, Louisiana and other locations made derogatory racial comments acknowledging the practice.
    __
    The commission also alleges that Bass Pro destroyed documents related to applications and internal discrimination complaints and retaliated against those who spoke up.
    __
    A spokesman for Springfield, Mo.-based Bass Pro Shops said the company had not yet reviewed the lawsuit.

  137. 137.

    kdaug

    @ed drone:

    They’re slackers and idlers and the undeserving poor beacause they have brown skin.

    Yep, from the same group that thinks Jesus was a swarthy blonde, blue-eyed guy and the bible was written in English – not real clear on the concept.

    Show em a picture of a Palestinian from the area around Bethleham…

  138. 138.

    Brachiator

    @Stefan:

    Show me on the doll where the Invisible Hand touched you….

    Don’t believe in either dolls or Invisible Hands. I barely believe in Judge Learned Hand. On the other hand, The Invisible Man was a cool movie. Lots of paranoia there, also too. Then, there is Cool Hand Luke. And I’m your Handy Man.

  140. 140.

    Chris

    @Citizen Alan:

    Consequently, the people who say “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.” are really saying “The Preacher said it. I don’t know enough about it to disagree. That settles it.”

    I’ve observed that before.

    You know, for a religion that began as a reaction to the Catholic Church’s monopoly on truth and whose building bloc was “this is between you and your God, don’t let some Eyetalian in a funny hat tell you what to do, cause you’re just as qualified to read the Bible as he is,” so many evangelical Protestant preachers seem to have their congregations on a leash so tight it’d make the Pope green with envy.

  141. 141.

    uptown

    Funny thing is there aren’t too many successful businessmen out there who really believe in a free market. They always want an edge over their competitors and don’t want to be beholden to their buyers, suppliers or shippers. Government regulations and laws are good at letting established businesses beat back competition from new entries to the their markets.

    Any law that helps a glib is a good law, all other ones are bad – until needed.

  142. 142.

    Chris

    @Ruckus:

    Both belief systems are based on third rate fiction so why shouldn’t they combine forces?

    Incompatibility between their basic tenets so blatant that even the most uninformed guy in the Christian and Randian crowds should be scratching his head and going “hold on a minute, guv’nor…”?

    I mean, I’ve heard of the Hitler-Stalin Pact, but everyone on both sides knew that marriage would end in divorce. This one, OTOH…

  143. 143.

    Eliot Rosewater

    This is the logic outcome given adherence to the Gospel of Prosperity.
    These folks should read the book of Job.

  144. 144.

    Naive and Sentimental

    I had pondered at one time about writing satirical articles and one such idea was arguing the invisible hand was God and we are in a recession because people are using positions other than missionary. But the news kept showing I couldn’t make up anything outlandish enough. A nice reminder of that.

  145. 145.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Citizen Alan:

    Most Christians have never read the Bible in its entirety.

    Martin Luther weeps. If this is true then Protestant Christianity as practiced in the US has devolved into a deranged and degenerate form of pre-Reformation Catholicism but with no hierarchy willing to at least emphasize good works as a path to salvation.

  146. 146.

    Ruckus

    @Chris:
    They are not uninformed they are misinformed. And misinformation can be twisted in any which way.

    The true tenets may be in opposition(violent even), but neither group seems to know or understand the true tenets.

    Anyone with the least amount of information should be shaking their heads and going “hold on a minute, guv’nor…

  148. 148.

    jl

    The explanations of the free market macroeconomists for the recent unpleasantness have been are tending towards private revelations of hidden miracles. Except miracles that make the lesser people worse off.

    So there is some kind of convergence going on.

  149. 149.

    Brachiator

    @catclub:

    A Caterpiller tractor knocks over the tree where the fruitbat lives so it can poop on the pig. Their virus DNA mix and voila’.

    Ah. Poop happens.

    @kdaug:

    Yep, from the same group that thinks Jesus was a swarthy blonde, blue-eyed guy and the bible was written in English – not real clear on the concept.

    Well, it’s been said that man created the Deity in his own image.

    And I always figured that the Bible was originally written in Gibberish and often translated into nonsense.

  152. 152.

    Stefan

    @Svensker:

    And never a thought in his head that he was driving on the interstate highway system built and paid for by Big Gubmint tax dollars….

  153. 153.

    twiffer

    just look at the oppressive regulations that jesus needs to free small business owners from!

    1. limo guy: hey, the “buy a new car every 5 years” does sound like a pain, but that’s a county reg. yearly inspections and having to get a CDL for your bus driver? you are complaining about this?
    2.car export guy: waaaah!!! i couldn’t run a business out of my house and for some strange reason, selling exotic cars to the MIDDLE EAST was highly regulated!
    3.BBQ lady: i’ll block quote here, cause i just can’t even snark on this:

    That’s not the only headache. We also have to develop a food safety management plan to comply with the Food and Drug Administration.

    But you can’t even write the plan unless you take an online course that teaches you basic food handling. You think it won’t be a big deal, but the course is challenging and it costs a couple hundred dollars.

    These regulations are really stifling to small business. They are really oppressive.

    [emphasis mine]. if basic food handling courses are “challenging”, get out of the business.
    4.lawn guy: waaaahhhh!!! i can no longer exploit foreigners for as much profit!!!!
    5. beer guy: dude, you realize you are actually arguing for centralized regulation, right?
    6. payroll guy: you suck at business. first off, you are bitching about having to provide your employees with accurate paystubs. how cruel. also, though, your FUCKING BUSINESS is to run payroll for other companies. that’s what payroll services are. so, um, you now have new paperwork to produce for your clients and charge them for! more money! or, is your business model to help people cheat their employees? cause then this sucks.
    7. another landscaper: also bitching about not being able to exploit foreign workers. my god, he may have to hire americans!

    seriously. fuck these people.

  154. 154.

    Ian

    @Davis X. Machina:

    I read that, and I wondered why it was considered a ringing endorsement of Democratic values. In each example people(or goats) are demonized and cast out as the other. The five virgins are idiots and are thus refused bliss. The one man who did not invest the money was damned. The goats who did not look out for the poor where also damned.
    While I get the last analogy (in terms of it being an endorsement to care for the needy) the other two I did not understand. Nor do I think that quoting this in an elevator would win over very many unconvinced voters.
    Did I miss something? Could this be explained better to me maybes?

  155. 155.

    DFH no.6

    Great set of comments by all and sundry. And a welcome dearth of fascist trolls, too.

    Particularly enjoyed PeakVT’s “Calvinism II: Economic Boogaloo”.

    This twisting of Sermon on the Mount Jesus into IGMFY Jesus as a very prominent feature of modern movement conservatism (not that such twisting is original with them) is one of the two primary reasons that my lifelong-Republican businessman brother-in-law finally left the Republican Party and now considers himself a moderate Dem (the other reason was the Iraq War and all that demonstrated about the neocon faction).

    Wish there were more like him.

    The Christian right are today’s Pharisees and temple moneychangers, and – as others have mentioned – would be first in line to string up the Jesus of the NT.

  156. 156.

    fasteddie9318

    @jibeaux:

    I’m a little freaked out at God’s tremendous interest in pron, if that’s the case.

    I’m more than a little confused at all the Old Testament prohibitions on homosexuality, since apparently God uses His Invisible Hand to jerk off rich white men all day long. WTF?

  158. 158.

    Samara Morgan

    @DFH no.6: they are the only christians you got tho.

    Its the legacy of protestant anti-intellectualism that keeps 78% of Murricans believin’ in some form of creationism and 56% denyin’ global warming, and pure-D white christian/western culture evangelism that got us into the twin quagmires of Iraq and A-stan.
    :)

  159. 159.

    RSA

    @Paula:

    “if a person does not work he will not eat. Now before you scream and holler here I admit that there are some very, very unfortunate people out there who absolutely cannot work and cannot take due care of themselves or their family. I am not in any way talking about that. I am talking about able-bodied people who can work and are able to work. God never focused on hand outs folks. He glorified work.”

    Yeah, right. “Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.”

    Moocher lilies.

  160. 160.

    burritoboy

    As others have mentioned, this is a massive conceptual problem.

    Fundamentally, neoclassical economics (what more commonly is called the Chicago School) is nihilistic: there is no good, there is no bad, the only thing is utility. And utility is defined as entirely subjective – Michael Milken’s utility is as just as valid as Mother Theresa’s utility.

    But that is fundamentally impossible under Christianity: Christianity claims that there is one single good for all people at all times in all circumstances. Thus, it is irrelevant what Michael Milken thinks his utility is – Michael Milken is simply wrong (under Christianity, that is).

    Thus, what these people are doing are creating a nihilist Christianity – which seems to me to be possibly the worst intellectual creation possible. I do not think it to be overstating the case if we were to assert that this might be the most dangerous intellectual framework developed since the 1945 fall of fascism in Europe.

  163. 163.

    rf80412

    @Paul in KY:

    @twiffer: Ah ha! That is when you must give the bad example as happening to a small child …

    Hard-core fundies believe children are just as wicked as everyone else – and perhaps even more wicked since they allegedly lack any capacity for self-control. Their Hell is full of children who died without being saved, especially since they don’t believe in infant baptism or that you get a pass until adulthood or confirmation. Believe me, those who believe that misfortune in this life is a manifestation of divine displeasure have NO problem at all with children suffering and dying.

  164. 164.

    burritoboy

    “It’s very possible to troll glibertarian chat rooms and newsgroups with quotes from The Wealth of Nations and be denounced as a rabid Marxist.”

    Actually, the glibertarians are unknowingly right in this case. Adam Smith (and most other economists until the end of the nineteenth century) relied on the labor theory of value: a good or service is valued at how much human labor has been mixed with it. Marx merely shows that the working classes have not been receiving the surplus value (how much more the good sold for versus the cost of labor that went into it). Instead, capital – which has NOT mixed it’s labor into producing the good – receives the vast majority of the surplus value.

    Adam Smith and Marx would have agreed upon this. In fact, it’s an undeniable interpretation if you believe in a labor theory of value.

    Neoclassical economics denies both Smith and Marx (the value is derived from the intersection of the supply and demand curves in neoclassical economics). In fact, neoclassical economics is perhaps even more in conflict with Smith than it is in conflict with Marx.

  165. 165.

    DFH no.6

    @Samara Morgan:

    they are the only christians you got tho

    No, not the only Christians.

    The ones with the most political power in America today, I’ll grant you that.

    The so-called “mainline” Protestant congregations (Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, Congregationalist, etc.) could – a generation ago – be counted on to largely support essentially liberal domestic policies. The same could be said of the American Catholic church of that time (the time I was being raised in that church).

    Not any more. The mainline Protestant churches are both politically divided today, as well as mostly shells of their former selves in terms of numbers.

    Today’s American Catholic church is mostly following the conservative bent of the larger Roman Catholic community around the world, along with the backlash against Vatican II as promulgated by John Paul II and now Pope Hitler Youth.

    And the non-mainline Protestant churches are not only larger in population now, they are nearly monolithic in their conservatism. Had one of their legion of acolytes in my office just now telling me about the “latest discoveries” that disprove evolution, as well as how Obama could not be a “Real Christian” since he promotes a satanic soshulist agenda (doesn’t believe he’s Muslim, either).

    Thus American-style Christianity’s well-deserved “toxic” reputation. Liberal Christians are too few, and too weak.

  166. 166.

    catclub

    @Ian: I think you read the first few verses of matthew 25. verses 31-46 are what he should have pointed towards.

    He wrote Matthew 25:41 should have been Matthew 25 vv31-46.

    But the link was to Matthew 25 starting at verse 1.

  167. 167.

    Bill

    Greed is America’s number one religion.

    I challenge the 1 in 5 referenced in this article to prove that either the invisible hand or god exist.

  168. 168.

    CarolDuhart

    @fasteddie9318: Back in Old Testament days, homosexuality was equated with pederasty: considering that marriages were also arranged as well, it may have been considered a kind of adultery as well. Throw in the social pressure to at least marry and reproduce, and it’s clear why the Old Testament was less than sanguine about male homosexuality.

    As far as the Bible was concerned about wealth, the essential attitude was that you can’t take it with you. While there is/was nothing wrong with wealth per se, the highest praise went to those who used their money for the common good (the young man who was admonished to give away all his money to the poor and follow him), those in the early Church who sold all they had and shared it among themselves. Indeed, the admonition mentioned about “he who would not work, should not eat” was to those members who did not try to help the early Church but who were fully able to. These were not the usual widows and unemployed and orphans of the modern welfare state, for whom Jesus had such care and concern.

  170. 170.

    flamingRedDingo

    How does that even work?

    Objectivism is fundamentally anti-christian.

    Meh. The cognitive dissonance is too much for me to bear this morning.

    Jesus wept.

  173. 173.

    John

    Jesus used to preach that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven until all these rich TV evangelists decided that god wanted us to be rich….

  174. 174.

    priscianus jr

    Excerpted from
    God and country: America in Red and Blue
    by Sheila Suess Kennedy
    pp.71-72:

    One response to the disarray [in early 20th-century America] was the Social Gospel – a Protestant-led effort to address the underlying causes of poverty and misery. Such reform efforts ran the gamut from temperance and Prohibition to a renewed emphasis upon Christian obligation to help the less fortunate by eliminating poverty and disease. Often described as the religious expression of progressivism, the Social Gospel was critical of the excessive individualism of the nineteenth century. Adherents of the Social Gospel – and they were a significant percentage of American Protestants – were committed to social justice and economic reform. Leaders of the movement spoke out against political corruption, poor working conditions, and child labor. They supported unionization and challenged many of the most ingrained aspects of capitalist ideology.

    “These social gospel programs and literature reflected an important transformation of Protestant theology … social gospelers redefined salvation, the nature of God, and religious commitment and in so doing, made an important departure from the Protestantism of the Second Great Awakening … Eschewing the lonely struggle with sin for a sense of individual assurance, social gospelers insisted that salvation was a social matter – that Christians were responsible for their brothers’ and sisters’ redemption as much as their own.” (Curtis 2001, 365)

    …. The Social Gospel explicitly rejected the Puritan belief that poverty was evidence of personal inadequacy.
    …. Social Darwinists vigorously contested the premises of the Social Gospel. Andrew Walsh has admirably summarized the Calvinist religious beliefs of the social Darwinists: the Fall necessitates a struggle for survival; the free market is the state of nature, and the invisible hand of the market is the hand of God; wealth is a sign of grace, while poverty is a punishment or test; and the poor are responsible for their own poverty (Walsh 2000). Ironically, social Darwinists were (and are) often found among those who most categorically rejected scientific Darwinism.

    References:
    Curtis, Susan. 2001. A Consuming Faith. The Social Gospel and Modern American Culture. Columbia: University of Missouri press.
    Walsh, Andrew D. 2000. Religion, Economics, and Public Policy: Ironies, Tragedies and Absurdities of the Contemporary Culture Wars. Westport, CT.

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