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You are here: Home / Hate and war

Hate and war

by DougJ|  October 14, 20113:29 pm| 221 Comments

This post is in: Blogospheric Navel-Gazing

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I would like to say that the reason the Occupy America movement is and will continue to be successful is that Americans want to come together so save our middle-class, but I don’t believe that. I believe that the real reason the movement resonates with people is that people hate banksters. I’ve been following along with Greenberg Quinlan Rosner polls and conference calls about what strikes a chord with people economically, and over and over again I hear that the two things that work are (a) hatred of the Chinese and (b) hatred of banksters.

I don’t like the politics of xenophobia and scapegoating, but there’s no question that they often work very well. One of the main reasons that establishment political reporting is so worthless is that they refuse to admit this. And it may be that one of the weaknesses of contemporary liberalism is its aversion to using these techniques. Some of the aversion is that establishment media, consisting as it does of rich people, is quick to yell “class warfare” whenever wealthy people — the natural scapegoatees in many cases — are criticized. Some of it, though, is that liberals just don’t like the politics of scapegoating and xenophobia very much. Maybe that has to change.

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Reader Interactions

221Comments

  1. 1.

    MikeJake

    October 14, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    If we’re talking economics, “hatred of the Chinese” isn’t xenophobia. The Chinese have created an economic model so attractive to our top 1% that they’re doing everything in their power to change us into them.

  2. 2.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    The scape goat was an innocent, sent to die to purify the rest.

    Need a different term for these fuckers.

    Leach splatting?

  3. 3.

    virag

    October 14, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    after every middle-class american has utilized elizabeth warren’s revenge voucher and kicks someone from wall street in the balls, the american people will be able to move together in a more pure and benevolent solidarity.

  4. 4.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    slug salting?

  5. 5.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    They may hate banksters, but they hate their neighbors more.
    Bail out the banksters, angry, but they get over it.

    Bail out the deadbeat neighbor who is underwater on his mortgage? Apoplexy.

    The difference between remote and local injustice.

  6. 6.

    navigator

    October 14, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    Nothing wrong with a little rabble-rousing in the service of your agenda:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjSTQwamo8M

  7. 7.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    Some of it, though, is that liberals just don’t like the politics of scapegoating and xenophobia very much.

    yup, like no one wants to admit that anti-mormon sentiment may make it simply impossible for Romney to win the general.
    ;)

    Of those voters saying that they would be less likely to vote for a Mormon candidate, 63 percent say there would be no chance that would vote for Romney.

    americans desperately want to belief that we are better than that.
    we arent.

  8. 8.

    el_gallo

    October 14, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    Yeah, what’s xenophobic about hating the Chinese Communist Party for pimping out their own population as slave labor to the American 1%?

    I’m old enough to remember when Communist oppression was Anti-American, not a business model.

  9. 9.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    @MikeJake: Another case of GOP projection.

  10. 10.

    sal

    October 14, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    It’s not scapegoating to hate on the banksters. They are the ones who got us into this economic situation, and who continue to promote and profit from it.

  11. 11.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    @wrb:

    I think that many of the banksters are essentially innocent. They make too much money, sure, and should have to pay more taxes. But some of them think that too. If someone (a) had nothing to do with the subprime crisis and (b) thinks he should pay more taxes, I don’t see why that person isn’t innocent.

  12. 12.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    Hate and war – the only things we got today.

  13. 13.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    @el_gallo:

    Yeah, what’s xenophobic about hating the Chinese Communist Party for pimping out their own population as slave labor to the American 1%?

    Nothing, but I don’t think it’s always pitched that way.

  14. 14.

    JGabriel

    October 14, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    … liberals just don’t like the politics of scapegoating and xenophobia very much. Maybe that has to change.

    Personally, I have no problem with the politics of scapegoating if the target earned it. The Chinese government makes a convenient scapegoat for some of our job problems right now because their manipulation of the yuan is keeping the dollar too high.

    Xenophobia on the hand, yeah, I have a problem with that — and would prefer that we continue to avoid hating on others just because they are other. Going down that route would betray principles I believe to be important.

    .

  15. 15.

    Jager

    October 14, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Talking with a pal the other day, we concluded what would resonate with people is not that guys like Blankfein make millions and millions, but that the underlings make 500k plus a year in their mid to late 20’s. As I told my friend, my daughter has a masters in education, works 60-70 hours a week and makes 44k…it ain’t fucking fair. He has a 33 year old daughter who is a pediatrician. She makes 120k and pays 36k a year on her school loans and works her ass off.

  16. 16.

    Zifnab

    October 14, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Hate fits very nicely on a bumper sticker, that’s for damn sure. And people need to identify a cause for their suffering. If we weren’t in the bottom of the latest recession in a thirty year run of bad economic news, I’d say maybe it would be nice if we could be a bit more hopeful. But shit stinks, and there’s no point in pretending human anger and misery don’t exist.

    The real reason liberalism is “losing” is the US electoral system. We’ve got over 40% of our Senators that represent less than 20% of our population. We’ve got gerrymandered districts. We’ve got a two-party system that is heads-I-win tails-you-lose for lobbyists who are able to play both sides against the middle. We’ve got a bicameral legislature with dozens of checks and balances that make it easy to do absolutely nothing even when you have overwhelming support for a given agenda.

    The deck is stacked. Pretending that its a messaging problem or a financing problem or a human-nature problem misses the mark entirely. Popular candidates can’t get majorities in our current political system because the game. is. rigged. Period.

  17. 17.

    el_gallo

    October 14, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    @Dougerhead: Well, perhaps it’s time to point out the obvious to people: American oligarchs have more in common with Chinese oligarchs than either have in common with their own countrymen. Worldwide, if you’re not an owner, you’re a resource to be expoited.

  18. 18.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    @Dougerhead:

    I can agree with that on an individual level, but the flagrant efforts, even now, to bend the rules in their favor and punish those who suggest greater equity, isn’t innocent
    They fought for the right to pillage and destroy the lives of others.

  19. 19.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    @el_gallo: The chinese are copying the business model of the south from 1870-1940 with prison labor. The xenophobes resent that.

    The US is more and more bringing that model back.

  20. 20.

    trollhattan

    October 14, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Shinobi linked to Taibi in the earlier Open Thread.

    @Shinobi:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/my-advice-to-the-occupy-wall-street-protesters-20111012

    He gets off to a rolicking start:

    1. Break up the monopolies. The so-called “Too Big to Fail” financial companies – now sometimes called by the more accurate term “Systemically Dangerous Institutions” – are a direct threat to national security. They are above the law and above market consequence, making them more dangerous and unaccountable than a thousand mafias combined. There are about 20 such firms in America, and they need to be dismantled; a good start would be to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and mandate the separation of insurance companies, investment banks and commercial banks.

  21. 21.

    Mnemosyne

    October 14, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    @Dougerhead:

    If someone (a) had nothing to do with the subprime crisis and (b) thinks he should pay more taxes, I don’t see why that person isn’t innocent.

    What’s your definition of “had nothing to do with the subprime crisis”? If they sold mortgage-backed securities. If they supported the loan department that was handing out bad loans, they’re responsible.

    Unless you’re talking about a teller in the bank, I’m not sure how you can claim that someone who worked for a major bank wasn’t responsible for the mortgage collapse. If nothing else, they went along with bad policies without protesting and now they’re whining because those bad policies have bitten them in the ass — hoocoodanode?

  22. 22.

    General Stuck

    October 14, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    For the dimmer bulbs, I think maybe a portion of the electorate blames and hates the Chinese. But I suspect those folks are already primed to hate someone and are more likely to turn up at a tea party rally.

    I think, and hope, that those on the left that tend to think a little more deeply about such things, will realize the Chinese ‘people” and the Chinese government are two separate things, and the people have very little say in what their country does on the world stage. I do think liberal activists are more attuned to hating on banksters a little or lot more than they should, being it is the government that they elect to regulate capitalism and it’s greedier side to mostly blame. I fall into that category, as I suspect most at the OWS does.

    Here in America, the non activist middle of the road folks that make up the vast majority of citizens, I think are well into sensing something is wrong and our economics are very unbalanced, and seem to be maybe blaming that on where it should be blamed, money in politics, mostly politics of the right with some dems, having conned them for at least 3 decades. I don’t think they hate the players so much as feeling some bigger changes are needed in the system we all live in, and the corps are a needed part of that system.

    The OWS folks, long as they don’t go crazy, I think will cause the middle class proper to do some more critical thinking about what is wrong, and realize the solution is not with the GOP. That is our only hope, and then will give dems larger majorities for making the big changes needed. And with those big majorities for dems, enough to cancel out the few bad actors in dem ranks that side with and enable the wingnuts and the plutocrats. It is possible things go this way, I wouldn’t say likely, but the OWS actions increase the odds of enlightenment of the bulk of white majority.

  23. 23.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    Moody Blues “The Question”? In which case you forgot Death.

    btw, today is Justin Hayward’s 65th birthday.

  24. 24.

    El Cid

    October 14, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    I can tell you that as often as I hear ordinary coworkers and neighbors etc bitching about ‘the Chinese’ it is accompanied by either (a) we are letting them buy us up or we owe them so much or (b) our companies are sending all the jobs there.

    (b) is a real case, (a), not really, but it’s not like this complaint universally means someone is expressing hatred for Chinese people and the nation of China in general.

    There really is a common — not dominant, but common — understanding that it’s our companies either shipping jobs out of the country or bringing in cheaper Chinese products (the same thing but it sounds like two very different concepts).

  25. 25.

    JGabriel

    October 14, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    @wrb:

    The scape goat was an innocent, sent to die to purify the rest. Need a different term for these fuckers. Leach splatting?

    I suppose evil motherfucking asshole bastards is too unwieldly?

    .

  26. 26.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    And it may be that one of the weaknesses of contemporary liberalism is its aversion to using these techniques.

    I hardly think that’s a weakness.

  27. 27.

    Plethded

    October 14, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    Is it xenophobia when all you’ve been hearing about is how that guy over in China is willing to do your job for 10% of what you want to get paid? It’s just regular “I hate those guys because they’re taking my job” phobia. It’s not like I’m berating people from China who live here and aren’t taking my job.

    Come to think of it, I’m not even blaming Chinese people as much as Wall Street for punishing companies who don’t offshore as much work as possible.

  28. 28.

    jl

    October 14, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    The Occupy America people I have seen on the news seem well informed, thoughtful, and reasonable (in striking contrast to the ‘get the feds out my Medicare’ teabagger crowds that the corporate flacks bussed in to their demonstrations).

    So, there is hope that demonstrators will be able to educate as well as protest.

    As for commenters above who talked about resentment of debt relief for neighbors, not sure what is meant by that. Is that resentment against real neighbors they know who are in trouble, or abstract neighbors in other neighborhoods who people just know are getting an unfair advantage?

  29. 29.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    @eemom:

    The Clash.

  30. 30.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    @JGabriel: “I have no problem with the politics of scapegoating if the target earned it.”

    I suspect that FIRST you convince the people the target earned it, THEN you make the target the scapegoats. It is probably somewhere in Mein Kampf that he tried the other way first and it kept not working, and suddenly he had a revelation…

  31. 31.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 14, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    @suzanne: I think DougJ is trolling us like for example when he suggested teaching long division was redundant.

  32. 32.

    slag

    October 14, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    I would like to say that the reason the Occupy America movement is and will continue to be successful is that Americans want to come together so save our middle-class, but I don’t believe that. I believe that the real reason the movement resonates with people is that people hate banksters.

    I’m going to divide the baby and say that it’s both. Some of us hate the banksters and some of us want to save our middle class and some of us both hate the banksters and want to save our middle class.

    Nothing’s perfect. And if that combination of impetuses gets us to where we need to go, I’m ok with that.

  33. 33.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Holy shit, you really believe in teaching long division?

  34. 34.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    @Dougerhead:

    oh. That band that folks always confuse with Soft Cell…
    :)

  35. 35.

    Chris

    October 14, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    I’ve been following along with Greenberg Quinlan Rosner polls and conference calls about what strikes a chord with people economically, and over and over again I hear that the two things that work are (a) hatred of the Chinese and (b) hatred of banksters.

    I’ve said this here before, dude: whoever finds a way to synthesize nationalist insecurity and fear of the Chinese with economic insecurity and fear of Wall Street bankers perceived as “selling our country out” will have hit the twenty-first century’s populist goldmine, combining right wing identity politics with left wing economic resentment.

    To what extent that’s a good thing, I don’t know: I there’d be a lot of parallels with mid-twentieth century liberalism, actually, with FDR’s two big legacies being his economic victories over the rich in the 1930s and his patriotic victories over the Krauts and the Japs in the 1940s.

  36. 36.

    David in NY

    October 14, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    I’d mind the scapegoating (for lack of a better word, I know scapegoats are innocent) less if it went along with the recognition that this isn’t new. That for thirty years median wages have been essentially stagnant (household income has risen solely because of women’s entry into the employment market); at the same time executive compensation, all over, not just bankers, has soared. And then, of course, in an effort to drive the already incredible compensation higher, the banksters busted the bank.

    And I believe that the increasing growth of economic inequality has been a result of three things: 1) defeat of unions, 2) reduction of government oversight, and 3) a lack of political challenge from the left (and the fall of international communism). Cf. Galbraith, pere.

    I wish only that there were wider appreciation of the inequality and discussion of its causes (which certainly do not include any commensurate growth in competence of the executive class).

  37. 37.

    joeyess

    October 14, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    Some of it, though, is that liberals just don’t like the politics of scapegoating and xenophobia very much. Maybe that has to change.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but this liberal loves laying blame where it is deserved and point out cheating as it occurs. It is what it is.

    Banksters wrecked both ours and the worlds economy and cheated while profiting obscenely and the Chinese have been lying about their currency for some time now and have been profiting obscenely.

    I’ll just call it what it is: Lying and cheating.

    If you want to call it scapegoating and xenophobia, go ahead. I tend to laugh at those terms as loudly as I laugh at the cry of “class warfare!”.

    If banksters and the Chinese don’t like it, they can fucking suck it.

  38. 38.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    @suzanne:

    I’m not sure, I think liberalism would work better if there was more overt, hostile class warfare in it. Not “everybody should pay their fair share” — that’s not class warfare — but “fuck those rich assholes”.

  39. 39.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    @JGabriel:

    I suppose evil motherfucking asshole bastards is too unwieldly?

    To replace scapegoating we need a word to describe what someone is doing when being mean to them.

    I thing your words have potential. Need re-ordered.

  40. 40.

    Maude

    October 14, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    Is this one of those goats gotta scape posts?

  41. 41.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    @eemom:

    I may have to delete this comment.

  42. 42.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    Perhaps it is worth noting that among “the Chinese”, the “1%” are possibly more evil and certainly more powerful than they are here…..and that their “99%” is WAY more fucked than we are.

  43. 43.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    @suzanne: of course you do.
    you dont want to admit that Christie is unelectable because he’s OBESE.
    hahaha
    and Romney is unelectable because hes a MORMON.
    lawlz.

  44. 44.

    goblue72

    October 14, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: I’d like to think so. Going down the road of “China’s government is stealing our jobs with slave labor” quickly winds up at “the Chinese are stealing our jobs”. Not only does that have far too strong a whiff of xenophobia for anyone with the gall to then call themselves a liberal, but know you’ve just gone a turned off Chinese-American voters (and likely many Asian/Pacific Islander voters in general) who’ve grown up dealing with anti-Asian racism their whole lives. Liberals don’t go down that road because we lack the balls to – we don’t go down that road because we HAVE the balls not to.

    Just substitute “the Chinese are stealing our jobs” with “the Mexicans are stealing our jobs”, and no one here would think that would be acceptable. But bashing on yellow folks – well, that’s not so bad, amirite?

    White people – Still oblivious in the 21st century.

  45. 45.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    @Dougerhead: Sure. But that’s not xenophobia.

    I think there’s plenty of room on the left for a moral discussion about the dangers of the consolidation of wealth, and I wish every left-leaning person of any influence would talk about it. This really is a larger issue than a merely political one.

  46. 46.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    @jl: both types. The complaint is: _I_ didn’t screw up, so why should the guy who did (who has a _slightly_ nicer house than he ‘should’, and whose life I can understand) get bailed out.

    My point was that there is much better understanding of the small, local case, than of the case of the bankster bailout, which is treated as just the way the world had to work, so no reason to get any more angry.

    The bankster bailout also comes into the billion here, billion there problem. There is not the same visceral understanding of the billions paid to the banks as there would be of a neighbor getting $20k
    to put him right-side-up with his mortgage. Even if the totals spent nationwide are the same.

  47. 47.

    David in NY

    October 14, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    @suzanne: Agree. Nice shorter me, of my clunky earlier comment.

  48. 48.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    @eemom:

    Wasn’t their big thing harshing the US Festival?

    Oh yea. I’m remembering. They liked iced tea. Sold it probably.

    “the only people who put iced tea in Jack Daniel’s bottles is The Clash, baby!”

  49. 49.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 14, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @Dougerhead: And finding square roots without a calculator. I also advocate using slide rules.

  50. 50.

    Chris

    October 14, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @eemom:

    Perhaps it is worth noting that among “the Chinese”, the “1%” are possibly more evil and certainly more powerful than they are here…..and that their “99%” is WAY more fucked than we are.

    Upton Sinclair, no friend of the robber-barons, had some good quotes about the Germany of his day that I think are applicable to China vs the West today –

    “I have lived in Germany and know its language and literature, and the spirit and ideals of its rulers. Having given many years to a study of American capitalism, I am not blind to the defects of my own country; but, in spite of these defects, I assert that the difference between the ruling class of Germany and that of America is the difference between the seventeenth century and the twentieth.”

    “American capitalism is predatory, and American politics are corrupt: The same thing is true in England and the same in France; but in all these three countries the dominating fact is that whatever the people get ready to change the government, they can change it. The same thing is not true of Germany, and until it was made true in Germany, there could be no free political democracy anywhere else in the world — to say nothing of any free social democracy.”

  51. 51.

    nancydarling

    October 14, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    Can we call the MSM “judas goats”? The pretty faces and news readers are trained by their corporate masters to lead the rest of us to the slaughter.

  52. 52.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    @Dougerhead: meh.
    both you and suzanne deny human nature.
    the reason occupy wallstreet is successful is because its an emergent self-organizing system.
    no purity required.

  53. 53.

    Jay B.

    October 14, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    “Banksters” is a shorthand for “Greedy motherfucking vampire squids on Wall St and elsewhere who have extolled off-shoring, ‘productivity’, tax breaks for the rich, de-regulation, ‘globalization’, ‘innovative financial products’, corporations as people and spend their time blaming Barney Frank and Jimmy Fucking Carter for 30 years of rampant crony capitalism and double-dealing”. It doesn’t necessarily mean “everyone who works in banks”. That seems pretty obvious.

    Are you wearing your Matt Yglesias hat today or something?

  54. 54.

    Bill in Section 147

    October 14, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    The Spartacist Youth League used to hand out flyers with the old, “…while the Rockefellers sleep on silk sheets…” and in the late 70s that rhetoric was just not cutting it. But there was a time when something that simple resonated with a lot of people. And it wasn’t silk vs. cotton…it was that the system cared more about keeping ‘Rockefeller’ in silk than feeding a starving child.

    The banksters are enjoying something simple and visceral right now that everyone knows is a demonstrable symbol of avarice. That object or privilege is there. Finding that resonance is the hard part.

    OWS is clarifying it but it hasn’t yet made the complex simple.

  55. 55.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    @joeyess: “I’ll just call it what it is: Lying and cheating.”

    My memory of the Devils dictionary put it: “The two main products of of the Orient are murder and cheating, the two main products of the Occident are also murder and cheating, but we call them war and commerce.”

  56. 56.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    If nothing else, they went along with bad policies without protesting

    And you know this how? Oh, wait: you don’t.

    Unless they share the anecdote, you haven’t the foggiest idea what Joe Finance said or didn’t say–or for that matter, was or wasn’t privy to–in the course of their job. You have no way of knowing what their financial and family obligations are, what their salary is, and whether or not they’re just as dependent on continued employment as anyone else with a family.

    You don’t know. Don’t presume to.

    The system is rotten. The financial instruments industry is dangerous and rewards sociopaths, of which there are far too many in this country. It needs to be torn down and rebuilt–heavily regulated–and that’s if it has any need to continue to exist at all.

    But there’s a lot of people on our side that are dangerously close to losing sight of the fact that there are people on the other side of the hatemongering they’re advocating.

  57. 57.

    Senyordave

    October 14, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    @joeyess: Well, this liberal isn’t very comfortable with the politics of scpaegoating and xenophobia. In part because it can get ugly very quickly but mostly because it tends to have an enormous amount of collateral damage.

  58. 58.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 14, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    @nancydarling: I prefer Punditubbies, gibberish without the cute.

  59. 59.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    you dont want to admit that Christie is unelectable because he’s OBESE.
    hahaha
    and Romney is unelectable because hes a MORMON.

    Dumbshit.
    First of all, I’ve made that exact same comment about Romney. On this blog. Repeatedly.
    Secondly, I am keenly aware that Christie’s weight most likely disqualifies him from winning the presidency. My point, however, is that that should not be so. His weight, if we were being intellectually honest, shouldn’t matter. People are prejudiced, and that causes injustice.

    You’re a fucking idiot.

  60. 60.

    Culture of Truth

    October 14, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    Speaking of Asia, Occupy Wall Street rallies are planned on Oct. 15 in Tokyo, Roppongi, Seoul, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, as well as Sydney and London.

  61. 61.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    @Dougerhead: It would be nice if the ‘fuck these rich assholes’ could get over to:
    “We are all in this together, do your part.” Not sure it can.

    There is no us in USA.

  62. 62.

    Chris

    October 14, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    @Senyordave:

    Well, this liberal isn’t very comfortable with the politics of scpaegoating and xenophobia. In part because it can get ugly very quickly but mostly because it tends to have an enormous amount of collateral damage.

    I agree completely.

    I would say, though, that scapegoating and xenophobia are ALREADY central features of the American political landscape, and that the Banksters are using it for all it’s worth. If we can redirect in a way that targets the Banksters, that’ll already be one step up from where we are now.

  63. 63.

    cat

    October 14, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    A) Its only scapegoating if the victim is innocent, otherwise I believe the term is justice.

    B) Its not xenophobia to claim the Chinese Government’s manipulation of its currency, corporate ownership laws, and public works contracts to benifit of the ruling Chinese elite caused millions of lost jobs in the US and else where aroung the globe.

  64. 64.

    el_gallo

    October 14, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    @cat: This.

  65. 65.

    Uncle Clarence Thomas

    October 14, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    .
    .

    I believe that the real reason the movement resonates with people is that people hate banksters.

    I believe that more people agree with President Obama that they are simply savvy, non-lawbreaking though high-spirited businessmen whose humble job it is to make money, don’t they?
    .
    .

  66. 66.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    @ eemom: Do you have some kind of mental block wrt the Clash? It is bothersome.

  67. 67.

    Sloegin

    October 14, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    The common clay can only keep track of a couple of enemies at a time. What pisses off the Money class is if they’re in the top few, that bumps off the list an enemy they’re trying to create, such as:

    The guy with a union job.
    A schoolteacher.
    Anyone with a pension.

  68. 68.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    @Samara Morgan: You are failing to distinguish between recognizing the potential for the prejudices of others to influence their behavior, and attempting to exploit that potential as a weapon.

    The former is simply the ability to observe and recognize facts as they are. I don’t think anyone’s disputing that there are people prejudiced against Christie for his obesity, or against Romney for being a Mormon. There is room for plenty of speculation and reasonable disagreement about how much of a factor those prejudices might play in a general election, but nobody seriously disputes that those prejudices exist.

    That is not the same thing as deciding to empower and validate bigotry by pandering to it and using it as a political weapon.

    I would disagree with suzanne. I think our reluctance to use bigotry and demagoguery as political weapons is a weakness of liberalism. But it is weakness in the same sense that our aversion to assassinating our political opponents is weakness: the kind I’m proud to own.

    We might be a little more effective if we were otherwise. We might not. But it would be a betrayal of many of the very core principles we purport to espouse.

  69. 69.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    @Jay B.:

    I think of it as everyone who works at a bank.

  70. 70.

    Cris (without an H)

    October 14, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    @Dougerhead: Holy shit, you really believe in teaching long division?

    I believe in using a slide rule to demonstrate logarithmic identities.

  71. 71.

    Dougerhead

    October 14, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I realize you’re screwing with me, but I think that learning how to use slide rules would be more useful than long division. Anything that helps students understand order of magnitude has value.

  72. 72.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Not actually. I was just reminiscing about that glorious evening where I was nearly run off the blog cuz I fucked up about Tainted Love.

  73. 73.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    @Dougerhead:

    Who said: “I don’t know what a slide rule is for”?

    (I don’t either, fwiw).

  74. 74.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    I believe that the real reason the movement resonates with people is that people hate banksters.

    Works for me.

    I’ve been following along with Greenberg Quinlan Rosner polls and conference calls about what strikes a chord with people economically, and over and over again I hear that the two things that work are (a) hatred of the Chinese and (b) hatred of banksters.

    So, are people going to stop shopping at Walmart? Are the Occupy Wall Street people going to slap the new iPhones out of people’s hands?

  75. 75.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 14, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    @Dougerhead: Actually I am not, well yes I am about square roots but not about slide rules. In my high school we were not allowed to use calculators. I think overall it is good idea to be able to do back of the envelope calculations without using calculators.

  76. 76.

    soonergrunt

    October 14, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    @Catsy:

    But there’s a lot of people on our side that are dangerously close to losing sight of the fact that there are people on the other side of the hatemongering they’re advocating.

    You mean the people who were human beings before they became bankers?

  77. 77.

    NonyNony

    October 14, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    @Dougerhead:

    I think of it as everyone who works at a bank.

    You realize there’s actually a difference between a “banker” and a “bankster” right?

    A “banker” works in a bank. A “bankster” is a combination banker and gangster.

    If you think there’s no difference between them, you believe that there’s no such thing as an honest bank. I’ll admit there are people who believe such things, but most people I know put the leadership of Citibank and Chase in the “bankster” category while the folks who run the local credit union get a pass.

  78. 78.

    soonergrunt

    October 14, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    @eemom: Sam Cooke, Wonderful World

  79. 79.

    Citizen Alan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    Truthfully, I DON’T think Christie is unelectable because of his weight. It is a negative that he would have to overcome, much like any other appearance-related issue in our incredibly shallow society, but not an insurmountable one. I certainly cannot believe that obesity is a bigger handicap than being a racial minority, after all, and that obviously didn’t stop Obama. Romney’s Mormonism is a much bigger problem, but mainly because his party affiliation requires him to build a winning coalition that includes the majority of the nation’s religious bigots. If Romney were running as a Democrat, Bain Capitol would be a much bigger obstacle for him than Mormonism.

  80. 80.

    singfoom

    October 14, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    http://vimeo.com/30550909

    “Clearer” video of the OWS protests where a cop ran over someone, then they arrested him.

  81. 81.

    Cris (without an H)

    October 14, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    @eemom: Sam Cooke. But he said it back in the pre-calculator days when students actually used them.

  82. 82.

    Loneoak

    October 14, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    There really needs to be a sense of international solidarity between American and Chinese workers. The same people are fucking us over, and equitable labor and environmental laws would do a lot to bring some jobs back over here and improve their lot in life. But I don’t see a lot of opportunity for this kind of thinking or work at the moment.

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    @ eemom: You should have been ridden out of the blog on a rail – tarred and feathered too. The slide rule quote is from a Sam Cooke song (you may remember it from the cafeteria lunch line scene in Animal House).

  84. 84.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 14, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    A Chinese student once told me that Chinese provincial/state governments kill the local businesses by giving multinationals much better incentives.

  85. 85.

    pete

    October 14, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    @Cris (without an H): Slide rules were beautiful and I wish I hadn’t got rid of mine. Not that I’d use it, but I’d like to fondle it occasionally.

  86. 86.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    @Catsy:

    I think our reluctance to use bigotry and demagoguery as political weapons is a weakness of liberalism. But it is weakness in the same sense that our aversion to assassinating our political opponents is weakness: the kind I’m proud to own.

    That’s totally what I meant. Like, exactly.
    There’s no point in having principles if we abandon them just because we’re losing.

  87. 87.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    October 14, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    @catclub:

    There is no us in USA.

    In my face to face discussion circle we have a principle for analyzing sales/marketing-speak (a subset of the larger world of Orwellian doublespeak) which we call “The People’s Democratic Republic principle”, named after places like North Korea and the former Warsaw Pact countries that like to use lots of words like that in their official name. And the principle is that whenever you encounter lots of positive-sounding adjectives embedded in a proper noun, somebody is lying to you about the object being named, and the positive qualities in question are in all likelihood conspicuous by their absence.

    The application of this principle to “The United States of America” is left as an exercise for the reader.

  88. 88.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    @Brachiator:

    this is a good point. The hypocrisy of people railing against “the Chinese” — not only without boycotting their products, but without even pausing for 10 seconds to consider how ubiquitous are those products in their lives –is mind-blowing.

    Like the assholes pissing on Steve Jobs the night he died over Chinese labor exploitation — by clattering away on their “made in China” Dells.

  89. 89.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:33 pm

    @Citizen Alan: sure Christie is unelectable because of his weight.
    Appearance is all.
    here is a thought experiment for you.
    if sarah palin looked like Janet Reno how far would she have gotten?
    ditto Bachman, ditto COD (christine o’donnell).

  90. 90.

    WereBear

    October 14, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    And it may be that one of the weaknesses of contemporary liberalism is its aversion to using these techniques.

    Feature, not bug.

    Sure, we could get down and roll in the muck; the other side can’t believe we don’t. But if we did… we wouldn’t be Liberals, would we?

    Our most powerful weapon is Telling the Truth. Which is why so many corporate media outlets won’t let us. But I think we are starting an end run around that; and I hope the results will be worthy of awe.

  91. 91.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 4:35 pm

    @Cris (without an H):
    @Omnes Omnibus:

    damn, y’all are right. But I was actually thinking of the Simon & Garfunkel cover.

    wrt The Clash, I can only continue to plead ignorance. Honestly, they just never made that much of an impression on me back in the day.

    oh wait….maybe I shouldn’t have said that…..

  92. 92.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    @soonergrunt:

    You mean the people who were human beings before they became bankers?

    Missing the point by a light-year.

  93. 93.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    @Samara Morgan: I’ll accept your apology for misrepresenting my position any time.

  94. 94.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    @suzanne: but you willfully ignore reality.
    it doesnt matter what liberals think of of christies weight or romneys mormonism.
    it matters what the GOP base thinks.

    do you have to be so pigignorant? does pregnancy pith the XX?

  95. 95.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    @suzanne: i didnt misrepresent your position.
    want links?

  96. 96.

    ornery

    October 14, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    Scapegoating is wrong. It is also stupid longterm.

    Scapegoating makes your tribe WEAK by projecting and never see one’s own problems, to never clean your own house.

    Plus, the Right does it, which means it is morally wrong and destructive in my experience. Maybe the Left DougJ represents wants to go down that path, but I’m a liberal who disagrees. The end does not justify the means if it is wrong.

  97. 97.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    October 14, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s better used in Witness, of course.

  98. 98.

    cat

    October 14, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    @eemom:

    Like the assholes pissing on Steve Jobs the night he died over Chinese labor exploitation—by clattering away on their “made in China” Dells.

    What is the acceptable amount of time the “Dell using assholes” should wait before critizing Job’s and Apple’s exploitation of chinese workers?

    Are people using chinese made computers belonging to someone else given a special Purity Police dispensation and allowed to correctly point out the [explotation of the] people assembling the $200 worth of parts into $1000 iPhones in closer proximity to Job’s death?

  99. 99.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 4:45 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Yes. I want links to comments in which I stated that Romney’s Mormonism was a non-issue to the GOP electorate and that prejudice against Christie for his weight was morally acceptable. Bring. It. On.

  100. 100.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    @Samara Morgan:
    Here’s another thought experiment for you.
    If Sarah Palin had Janet Reno’s ability, how far would she have gotten?

  101. 101.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    it doesnt matter what liberals think of of christies weight or romneys mormonism. it matters what the GOP base thinks.

    You have a genuine gift for making statements that–while technically accurate or based in facts–really have no bearing on the argument you’re actually making. Is anyone here disputing that shallow prejudices might motivate voters in a way harmful to Romney or Christie on a national level? No?

    It is of course true that it matters what the GOP base thinks of Romney’s religion and Christie’s weight. I have not seen anyone suggest otherwise.

    It’s also irrelevant to the question of whether or not we, as liberals/progressives, should betray our principles and demean ourselves by pandering to–and thereby empowering–the very prejudices we expend so much energy trying to eradicate.

  102. 102.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    but you willfully ignore reality.

    My position is that the reality of anti-fat prejudice is morally wrong. I am keenly aware that the reality exists.

    Still waiting on those links.

  103. 103.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    October 14, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    @Amir Khalid: You have apparently infinite patience, as well as an inexplicable desire to bang your head against a wall, repeatedly. Nevertheless, I always appreciate your thoughtful insights and occasional statements auf Deutsch.

  104. 104.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    @suzanne: I stated that Romney’s Mormonism was a non-issue to the GOP electorate
    LOL
    you are such a stupid cow.
    did you miss the Pew poll i cited?

    A clear majority (68 percent) of Americans say they would not be more or less likely to vote for a presidential candidate if that candidate was Mormon. However, a quarter (25 percent) say they would be less likely to vote for a Mormon candidate while only five percent say they would be more likely.
    __
    A further breakdown of these responses shows limited variation based on party affiliation. Democrats show the greatest negative response with 31 percent saying they would be less likely to support a Mormon, while Republicans and Independents fall at 23 percent and 20 percent respectively.
    A greater distinction is revealed when respondents are sorted by their own religious affiliation. The greatest rate of negative response comes from white evangelicals with 34 percent saying they would be less likely to support a candidate who was Mormon. Meanwhile, only 16 percent of white Catholics say the same.
    __
    These response trends are confirmed when applied to former Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney. Of those voters saying that they would be less likely to vote for a Mormon candidate, 63 percent say there would be no chance that would vote for Romney. No specific analysis was provided for the other prominent Mormon in the race for the GOP nomination, Jon Huntsman.

  105. 105.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    @cat:

    no. I was just assuming that the majority of non-Apple computers are Dells.

    If there is some widely used computer or other electronic device that is NOT made with Chinese labor, please enlighten me.

    Hypocrisy is hypocrisy is hypocrisy whenever it exists. It was just particularly odious that certain people chose to flaunt it on the night the man died, imo.

  106. 106.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    @Amir Khalid: a lot farther than she got, provided she got to keep her looks.
    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): you lurves you some house muslim, right?

  107. 107.

    Satanicpanic

    October 14, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    It’s not the Chinese, it’s every company that is outsourcing and our neoliberal government that is encouraging it. The Chinese just happen to be the best at attracting said companies

  108. 108.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    @Brachiator:

    So, are people going to stop shopping at Walmart?

    Walmart only sells goods made by conservative Chinese.

  109. 109.

    catclub

    October 14, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    Suzanne and Catsy, Please stop feeding the troll.

  110. 110.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    @Samara Morgan: I have repeatedly said on this blog that Romney’s religion will be a problem for him with evangelicals.

    Can you read?

  111. 111.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    @suzanne:

    My position is that the reality of anti-fat prejudice is morally wrong.

    LULZ! so fucking what you dimwitted scold? Christie on terebi is visually repugnant to a WHOLE lotta Murrikkkans.
    A majority of Murrikkkans.
    :)

  112. 112.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    October 14, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    does pregnancy pith the XX?

    @Samara Morgan:

    you lurves your house muslim, right?

    This is just one commentors opinion, but I think you’ve gone over the line into hate-speech here. IMHO a timeout would be appropriate at this point, and far more productive if it were self-imposed and accompanied by some self-reflection rather than coming from the blog-hosts. But in either case, time for a timeout.

  113. 113.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    so fucking what

    So liberals shouldn’t encourage or contribute to it.

    Links?

  114. 114.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    @suzanne:

    I stated that Romney’s Mormonism was a non-issue to the GOP electorate

    LOLOLLLOLOL!
    ALL the WHITE evangelicals there are are in the GOP electorate.
    AMG you are a simpleton.
    please tell me you were a simpleton before breeding.
    i cant bear to hear pregnancy piths the XX.

  115. 115.

    different-church-lady

    October 14, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    The fact that the banksters seem to enjoy playing the bad guy so much probably has something to do with it too.

  116. 116.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:03 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: trust meh, its incoming.

  117. 117.

    The Moar You Know

    October 14, 2011 at 5:04 pm

    Like the assholes pissing on Steve Jobs the night he died over Chinese labor exploitation—by clattering away on their “made in China” Dells.

    @eemom: In fairness, a not insignificant subset of those people were clattering away on their “made in China” Macs.

  118. 118.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:04 pm

    @suzanne: ‘zactly.
    so why discuss it?
    ever time you swing on me you punch yourself in the neck suzanne.

  119. 119.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    @Samara Morgan: I got two Master’s degrees after having a kid.

    Where’s those links?

  120. 120.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    pithing in the wind?

  121. 121.

    Hugh

    October 14, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    I don’t know… I guess I should look at that poll. But I’ve heard nothing in the comments out of OWS that suggest xenophobia or scapegoating. I think people are scared and angry, and that can be directed against “other” groups. But I haven’t heard that there at all. Now on to look at that poll.

  122. 122.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    so why discuss it?

    Because some liberals (eemom, for one) are happy to encourage appearance-based prejudice as long as it’s in service of their goals.

    Links?

  123. 123.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    @suzanne: i gave you your EXACT WORDS.

    I stated that Romney’s Mormonism was a non-issue to the GOP electorate

    degrees in what?
    law? english?
    hahahahahaha

  124. 124.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    @wrb: hahahaha
    niiiice.

  125. 125.

    cat

    October 14, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    @eemom:
    It depends if you consider Taiwan part of China and their labor practices better then the Chinese.

    If you were careful you could build a computer that didn’t have any major component assembled in China, some minor components would be Chinese, but you wouldn’t actually end up with a computer that would be ‘fair trade’ as it were.

    Asia owns the means of production for our Technology Economy, that should worry people.

  126. 126.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    @suzanne: appearance based prejudice is part of the bio basis of behavior.
    Sociobiolgy 101.

  127. 127.

    Hugh

    October 14, 2011 at 5:14 pm

    Upon re-reading your post I see you’re not actually saying the protest participants are scapegoating or xenophobic – but it took a couple of reads for that to become clear to me. As a rule I love your posts and always read them when I see them. This one feels a little blurry to me. It looks like you’re linking to specific polling on OWS to support your thesis about why it will succeed. Regarding the broader point, how depressing a thesis. I’m not sure it’s true as a rule. Though there are plenty of examples of people’s fear and anger being turned towards destructive paths. Still, hard to feel sorry for a group of people (banksters, as it were) who have so much and who have had so little acountability.

  128. 128.

    Ash Can

    October 14, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    Not all that OT at all, yes, it’s Tim Fucking Geithner, and yes, they’re just words. But they’re encouraging words. He doesn’t strike me as someone who would blow smoke if there weren’t at least a little bit of a fire going.

  129. 129.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:17 pm

    @Samara Morgan: My full quote was:

    Yes. I want links to comments in which I stated that Romney’s Mormonism was a non-issue to the GOP electorate and that prejudice against Christie for his weight was morally acceptable. Bring. It. On..

    My degrees are in architecture and building science. I graduated summa cum laude.

    Links?

  130. 130.

    FuzzyWuzzy

    October 14, 2011 at 5:19 pm

    @Samara Morgan: South Park will make an episode defending Romney and he will become America’s Next Hope.

  131. 131.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    appearance based prejudice is part of the bio basis of behavior.
    Sociobiolgy 101.

    Even so, appearance-based prejudice is still wrong. And exploiting appearance-based prejudice is just as wrong.

    I for one maintain that it is not naive, or assuring their own defeat, for good guys to fight clean even when the bad guys fight dirty. I’m well aware that it makes the fight more difficult, often greatly so. But liberals are supposed to the good guys here. If they do like the bad guys, how then are they not the bad guys too?

  132. 132.

    MonkeyBoy

    October 14, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    The recent Public Policy Polling poll are rather surprising in that the largest support for Occupy is in the 100K+ income bracket.

    My explanation is such people are those who have enough money that they are in a position that they need to go beyond vanilla banking services and they have personal experience on how the banksters can be real weasels.

    Among the wealthy in the US (let’s say not banksters and not the superwealthy but those with income in the low 6 figures) they regard financial services as a way to preserve and moderately grow their wealth. It seems even they are feeling screwed by the banksters.

  133. 133.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    @cat:

    Asia owns the means of production for our Technology Economy, that should worry people.

    Not really. The sad fact is that the stagnant wages and overall decline in the standard of living of many Americans is partially offset by the lower labor cost and price of Chinese manufactured goods. And people are happy with this.

    However, as Chinese wage costs rise, companies just look for the next viable low cost producer. And so, for example, you have Apple starting to ramp up production in Brazil.

  134. 134.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    @Samara Morgan: What Amir said.

    Links?

  135. 135.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    @suzanne: ? you SAID that critting christies obesity was immoral.
    i said no one cares.
    you said romneys mormonism should be a non-issue to liberals as well.
    again, no one cares, and its not a non-issue.

    A further breakdown of these responses shows limited variation based on party affiliation. Democrats show the greatest negative response with 31 percent saying they would be less likely to support a Mormon

    liberals arent going to vote for romney OR christie anyways.
    you are just an old PC scold that denies the biological basis of behavior.
    “building science”? WTF is that?
    LOLLLOLOL!

  136. 136.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    October 14, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I was quite offended by the comment about what I “lurves,” and it wasn’t directed at me. But I found it crass and tasteless and inappropriate in any event. I also don’t appreciate seeing commenters addressed with “you stupid cow” again, whether directed toward me or someone else. Thus I would indeed support a timeout. Ahem, DougJ.

  137. 137.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 5:29 pm

    Here’s what I believe:

    Chris Christie will most likely succumb to Fat Comedian Disease in the near future.

    Mormonism is a troll religion, initiated by a sociopath who never would have gotten laid otherwise.

  138. 138.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    October 14, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    @wrb:

    pithing in the wind?

    Most likely. But I’ve generally tried to refrain from joining in when others pile on her and possibly as a result have had semi-productive conversations with this commentator before, so you never know. At least I tried, nicht wahr?

  139. 139.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    @Amir Khalid: but its not “our” fight.
    its the GOP base’s fight.
    are you an old PC scold like suzanne?
    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): so bring it.
    mail Cole and bitch about it.

  140. 140.

    agorabum

    October 14, 2011 at 5:39 pm

    “For nearly four years you have had an Administration which instead of twirling its thumbs has rolled up its sleeves. We will keep our sleeves rolled up.

    We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace–business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.

    They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.

    Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me–and I welcome their hatred.

    I should like to have it said of my first Administration that in it the forces of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said of my second Administration that in it these forces met their master.”
    – FDR, on the eve of the 1936 elections
    RTWT

  141. 141.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:39 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    i didnt misrepresent your position.
    want links?

    Still waiting.

    Building science is research and experimentation in the pursuit of the design of carbon-neutral buildings.

    Admit you’re lying, or fuck off.

  142. 142.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    @Amir Khalid: you and suzanne are just alike.
    you are breaking your arms pattin’ yourselves on the back for being the “good guys”.
    you arent the good guys.
    you are the lefthand mirror of the conservitards with different tribal shibboleths and totems.

  143. 143.

    eemom

    October 14, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    @opal:

    suzieQ awaits your apology.

  144. 144.

    Bill Arnold

    October 14, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    Mentally roughly estimating square roots is useful for estimating error bars…

  145. 145.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:43 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    are you an old PC scold like suzanne?

    I’m 31. Your demographic.

    Links or an apology for being a liar.

  146. 146.

    My Truth Hurts

    October 14, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    The politics you describe Doug often leads to atrocities. I could never support that.

  147. 147.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    @suzanne:

    Lookism.

    “we face a world where lookism is one of the most pervasive but denied prejudices.”

  148. 148.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    @eemom: If you own a Dell laptop, it would have been assembled in Malaysia — where, last I heard, Dell still assembles all its laptops. Malaysia has been an off-shoring site for electronics manufacturers from the US and Japan since the early 1070s, as have other countries in southeast Asia. (Hell, you can’t depend on exporting tin and rubber and palm oil forever.)

  149. 149.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    October 14, 2011 at 5:49 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Malaysia has been an off-shoring site for electronics manufacturers from the US and Japan since the early 1070s

    I knew Malaysia stayed ahead of the curve, but apparently I didn’t recognize just how far. :-)

  150. 150.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    @suzanne: yawn

    Fat people, AS A CLASS, are treated like shit in this society. Some studies say that fat hate is more prevalent and more harmful than sexism and homophobia, which may or may not be true, but certainly sheds light on the degree to which it is a problem. Fat people make less money, get worse health care even for issues unrelated to weight, and have to endure the sniping bullshit that indicates every goddamn day that their bodies are somehow EVERYONE ELSE’S BUSINESS just because they dare to go out in public. And it is fucking SHAMEFUL.
    __
    The reason I care about this issue is because I am a feminist and a humanist, and I spend a shitload of my time and effort and energy trying to make a world in which people are judged by the content of their character and not by their appearance.

    boo-fucking-hoo

    I am well aware that Christie is a victim of appearance-based prejudice. That isn’t his problem; it’s ours.

    no, its not. its his problem if the GOP wont vote for him based on APPEARANCE.
    none of “us” liberals would vote for him anyways.
    except maybe you…as a mercy fuck vote.

  151. 151.

    Ash Can

    October 14, 2011 at 5:55 pm

    @suzanne:

    I’m 31.

    To matoko, that’s ancient.

  152. 152.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 5:58 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Is that a link to a comment I made in which I said appearance-based prejudice is morally acceptable?

    Swing and a miss.

    Since you aren’t going to find any links, I’ll just settle for a nice, “I was wrong”.

  153. 153.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 5:58 pm

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
    (Blush.) Is typo. I meant the 1970s.

  154. 154.

    Raenelle

    October 14, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    There can be a problem with the disdain/hatred for bankers in that it can come from either right or left. On the right, an attack on bankers is often just code for attacking Jews. So, Father Coughlin blamed bankers for the Depression and turned that explanation into an anti-Semitic attack. On the left, “bankers” stands in for an attack on finance capitalism, and that’s on target as a real explanation. #OWS, however, is firmly on the left in this case.

  155. 155.

    different-church-lady

    October 14, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    @Ash Can:

    To matoko, that’s ancient.

    To a 12 year old, all adults of any age are.

  156. 156.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    @suzanne:

    where I said appearance-based prejudice is morally acceptable?

    WTF? you are consistant in saying any kind of prejudice is totally immoral and unacceptable.
    WTF are you talking about?
    my position is that liberals and conservatives alike are subject to bio-basis-of-behavior prejudices laid down in the EEA that are certainly immoral and unfair and that you, suzanne, can do absolutely nothing about.
    im saying christies obesity and romneys mormonism aint our bidness cuz we aint gonna vote for them anyways.
    like i said you are a politically correct scold.
    :)

  157. 157.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    lulz, shorter suzanne–

    “we” liberals should be “better” than that (the Others i guess).

    you arent.
    you just have a different set of prejudices and tribal shibboleths.

  158. 158.

    Davis X. Machina

    October 14, 2011 at 6:21 pm

    @agorabum: Too bad he adopted their analysis of the macroeconomic situation, and plunged the country into a recession which, if it were considered separately from the 1929-936 Crash and Depression, would be the second-worst slump of modern times.

    Not even FDR was “FDR”.

  159. 159.

    Mnemosyne

    October 14, 2011 at 6:22 pm

    @cat:

    Are people using chinese made computers belonging to someone else given a special Purity Police dispensation and allowed to correctly point out the [explotation of the] people assembling the $200 worth of parts into $1000 iPhones in closer proximity to Job’s death?

    If you paid $1,000 for your iPhone, somebody ripped you off. The highest-end one available costs $399. Even when it debuted, the most expensive one was $599.

  160. 160.

    Mnemosyne

    October 14, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    @Catsy:

    And you know this how? Oh, wait: you don’t.
    __
    Unless they share the anecdote, you haven’t the foggiest idea what Joe Finance said or didn’t say—or for that matter, was or wasn’t privy to—in the course of their job. You have no way of knowing what their financial and family obligations are, what their salary is, and whether or not they’re just as dependent on continued employment as anyone else with a family.
    __
    You don’t know. Don’t presume to.

    Ah, yes, the poor innocent banksters. How could they have possibly known that faking people’s financial records to get as many loans on the books as possible could go wrong?

    If someone had such a moral problem with handing out liar loans, they would have quit. I have zero sympathy for the people who were “just following orders” and now insist that they’re bigger victims than the people they harmed. Admit that you participated in a horrible system that tanked the economy and promise not to do it again, and maybe I’ll eke out a tiny tear for your pain.

  161. 161.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    im saying christies obesity and romneys mormonism aint our bidness cuz we aint gonna vote for them anyways.

    Oh. Well, when you put it that way, you’ve wound up changing what you actually said in the first place: that Romney being Mormon and Christie being obese make them unelectable i.e. that they shouldn’t be considered because of their obesity and Mormonism.

    It is true that these attributes are not liberals’ business; but, precisely because they have nothing to do with either man’s ability to do the President’s job, they are not conservatives’ business either. And if liberals take heart that these attributes are what disqualify them in the eyes of conservatives, then liberals are guilty of profiting from conservatives’ prejudices.

  162. 162.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    @FuzzyWuzzy:

    South Park will make an episode defending Romney and he will become America’s Next Hope.

    they already did.

    In the meantime, The Hell Director welcomes a group of new arrivals to Hell (which is actually a parody of a Rowan Atkinson skit). Some of them protest that they should not be in Hell because they were true to their faiths (one man in Hell was a devout Protestant and another was a Jehovah’s Witness, even though the man who said this was wearing an Army uniform. Military service is strictly forbidden among Jehovah’s Witnesses) and did nothing sinful, but the Hell Director reveals that the only people allowed in Heaven are Mormons

    .

  163. 163.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 6:36 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    that Romney being Mormon and Christie being obese make them unelectable i.e. that they shouldn’t be considered because of their obesity and Mormonism.

    those attributes MAKE THEM UNELECTABLE BECAUSE THEIR OWN BASE WONT VOTE FOR THEM.
    i was perfectly clear on that.
    you and suzanne just doan liek meh, so you seize any excuse to chihuahua-pack me.
    :)

  164. 164.

    Mnemosyne

    October 14, 2011 at 6:36 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Well, when you put it that way, you’ve wound up changing what you actually said in the first place.

    Hopefully you are not surprised by this. It’s pretty much her modus operandi at this point.

  165. 165.

    A Farmer

    October 14, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    One good bit of bankster news, a local bank calls out BofA on debit card charges:

    An Urbana bank says it will pay you to use its debit card.
    The Peoples Savings Bank of Urbana says, starting in November, it will credit customers $5 each month for each account with a debit card.
    President Brice Kadel said the two-branch bank launched the program to show its opposition to debit-card fees charged by large institutions. Last month, Bank of America announced plans to levy a $5 monthly fee on customers who use their debit cards.
    Kadel said customers have asked whether Peoples Savings planned to impose debit-card fees.
    “Paying our customers to use our debit cards is the kind of symbolic gesture that eliminates their fears,” Kadel said.
    Peoples will credit $5 to each account that uses one or more signature-based debit card transactions during the statement period. Customers also can earn the credit in December and January.

    I like this. No way those big banks don’t make a killing charging an average of 20 cents a transaction. Glad to see somebody at a local bank make them look like the crooks they are.

  166. 166.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 6:39 pm

    @Mnemosyne: When one debates the intellectually dishonest, one does tend to run into intellectual dishonesty.

  167. 167.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 6:39 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    you SAID that critting christies obesity was immoral. i said no one cares.

    And yet your assertion is demonstrably untrue. The fact that were are having this discussion at all makes it false on its face: clearly there are at least three people out of the four involved in this back-and-forth who do, in fact, care. I submit that we are not, in fact, alone in this.

    you said romneys mormonism should be a non-issue to liberals as well. again, no one cares, and its not a non-issue.

    With regard to your repeated use of “no one cares”, I find myself with an overwhelming urge to deploy the appropriate Inigo Montoya quote.

    Are you off your meds today or something? That’s not an attack, that’s a no-shit serious question; your writing today is far less literate and far more incoherent and antagonistic than usual. You’re acting like a junkie who missed their last fix.

  168. 168.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 6:40 pm

    @Mnemosyne: fuck off mnem.
    i was PERFECTLY CLEAR on that.
    i actually did the math to prove Romney is unelectable because the GOP base has anti-mormon sentiments.

    These response trends are confirmed when applied to former Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney. Of those voters saying that they would be less likely to vote for a Mormon candidate, 63 percent say there would be no chance that would vote for Romney.

  169. 169.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Modus operandi? She moves goalposts more often than Calvin and Hobbes trying to play football.

  170. 170.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 6:44 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: you never answer my questions Omnes. im not the intellectually dishonest one here.

    @Catsy: im just tired. educating the juicitariat is like the labors of sisyphus.
    :)

  171. 171.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 6:49 pm

    @Mnemosyne: i FUCKING consistantly SAID that christie and romney are unlectable BECAUSE THEIR OWN BASE wont vote for them.
    i gave hotair quotes where the hotair commentariat was making fat jokes.
    i gave a mathematical presentation based on Pew polling of why i think Romney cant win BECAUSE SOME PART OF HIS BASE wont vote for a mormon.

    slines cant read i guess.
    ;)

  172. 172.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    @Samara Morgan: When you quote people out of context and suggest that they support things that they do not, you are being intellectually dishonest. When you ask questions of me like “Can you name a good libertarian?”, there is no reason for me to answer. You could just as well ask “Why is green?” for all that the question adds tot he discussion. I am not a libertarian, nor am I libertarian curious. Why should I be asked to find and defend someone or something with which I do not agree? Further, how can my failure/refusal to do so be seen as dishonest?

  173. 173.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 6:52 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    you just have a different set of prejudices and tribal shibboleths.

    Trying to make oneself a better person, the greatest jihad of all, requires (among other things) that one seek to rise above one’s prejudices and the shibboleths of one’s tribe. And, of course,that one not seek to gain by the prejudices and tribal shibboleths of others

    @Mnemosyne:
    I know, I know. I just can’t help myself, though; I just have to point it out..

  174. 174.

    Mnemosyne

    October 14, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    i actually did the math to prove Romney is unelectable because the GOP base has anti-mormon sentiments.

    And that had exactly what to do with what suzanne was saying?

    That’s the whole point — you put words into her mouth, and when she called you on it, you tried to pretend that you were saying something else.

    You called her a liar while lying about what she said, and then tried to pretend you said something else when she pointed out that you were lying about what she actually said.

    This is how you make yourself disliked around here.

  175. 175.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    @Samara Morgan: People expressed moral objections to these prejudices. They did not say that the prejudices did not exist.

  176. 176.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    Some folks here are going wolf pack on Samara on style over substance.

    To paraphrase suzanne, I thought liberals were better than this.

  177. 177.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    i was PERFECTLY CLEAR on that.

    Your arguments are perfectly clear in the same way that a mountain is not aerodynamic. If everyone but you is consistently misunderstanding the point you’re trying to make, you may want to reevaluate your approach to communication.

    i actually did the math to prove

    Honeybadger, you di’n’t prove shit.

    What you did was cherry pick numbers from a poll to support your argument, perform some Captain Obvious-level math on those numbers, and assume that this poll is predictive of the outcome of an election.

    This is one poll. One poll with a sample size of 1,020 adults. Not 1,020 registered voters, nor even 1,020 likely voters (you do know what that term denotes, right?). You could get more predictive value from taking any given Tom Friedman column and assuming the opposite position.

  178. 178.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 6:58 pm

    @opal: No, people are going wolfpack on m_c on substance. Unless you consider dishonesty and goal post moving to be matters of style. I don’t.

  179. 179.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    @opal:

    Some folks here are going wolf pack on Samara on style over substance.

    Are we even watching the same thread? It is precisely the substance of Samara’s “arguments”–such as they are–which draw such ire.

    You also may want to brush up on her history here before wedding yourself too closely to that observation.

  180. 180.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    i gave hotair quotes where the hotair commentariat was making fat jokes.
    i gave a mathematical presentation based on Pew polling of why i think Romney cant win BECAUSE SOME PART OF HIS BASE wont vote for a mormon.

    Exactly.

  181. 181.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 7:03 pm

    @opal: plz…chihuahuapack, not wolfpack.
    @Catsy: i didnt cherrypick, i used all the stats from that section of the poll, on mormonism.
    My hypothesis is that Romney cannot get the 65% of the white vote he needs to win, because of anti-mormon sentiment in his own (white voter) base.
    i would welcome a discussion of that.

    OTOH, i DID NOT say that fat and mormon render people unelectable like khalid and suzanne are asserting. i SAID VERY CLEARLY that prejudice in the conservative base renders the candidate unelectable.
    and it doesnt matter if democrats are prejudiced or not, because we arent voting for them.

  182. 182.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 7:04 pm

    @Samara Morgan: Okay, this post is just over the line. It’s like you’re going out of your way to be so offensive and abrasive that you’ll be martyred banned for it.

  183. 183.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 7:04 pm

    @opal: And this has exactly what to do with people saying that religious and obesity related attacks on politicians are wrong? Exactly; it has nothing to do with it. I don’t necessarily disagree with m_c’s judgment about Romney’s chances at the GOP nomination, but that judgment is entirely immaterial to the fight she picked.

  184. 184.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    @opal:

    Some folks here are going wolf pack on Samara on style over substance.

    No, I’m going “wolf pack” because she’s a liar.

  185. 185.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: chihuahuapack, Omnes.
    be species specific.
    :)

  186. 186.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    @opal:
    This isn’t a dispute over m_c’s style. We are criticizing the substance of her comments. Specifically, that prejudices are innate and natural, and so may go unquestioned — or even be profited from — in a nation’s politics and economic discourse. Naturally, most of us don’t find this acceptable, as m_c does.

  187. 187.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    @suzanne: what did i lie about?
    links plz?

    ;)

  188. 188.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    Samara, my taco:

    I think you should chill.

    You are sounding the least together I’ve heard you.

    I agree with your basic point.

    But you’ve followed it with a lot of flailing and unearned nastiness, which has become the topic.

    Good time to groom a horse.

  189. 189.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    @Amir Khalid: i find all empirical data interesting and acceptable.
    what i dont find acceptable is holier-than-thou unrealistic PC pontification and fake tafsir.
    :)

  190. 190.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    @suzanne:

    She clearly struck a nerve.

    Get over it.

  191. 191.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 7:13 pm

    @opal:

    She clearly struck a nerve.
    __
    Get over it.

    Truly, the voice of Substance over Style.

  192. 192.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    I don’t like the politics of xenophobia and scapegoating, but there’s no question that they often work very well.

    Remember Yoda’s speech to Luke about the temptation and the peril of following the dark side?

  193. 193.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    @wrb: haha, ok i can take advice.

    some people believe in nature, some people believe in nuture.
    i believe i’ll go ride my horse.

  194. 194.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    @Catsy:

    Catsy:

    I am planning a Portal-themed collaborative display for next year’s BrickCon. The idea is for contributors to design interchangeable Aperture Laboratories test chamber modules based on a common standard, which we can arrange into a series of test chambers that can be populated with whatever props contributors wish to build.

    How wonderful.

  195. 195.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    @Samara Morgan: One can recognize that something is a fact and yet find the situation implied by that fact to be immoral. This is what you seem to be missing here. To put it your terms, US troops are in the Middle East. Empirical fact. Using the reasoning you are exhibiting here, that would be the end of the discussion. The whys and wherefores of US troop presence as well as the morality and advisability of it would never be discussed. Does that make sense. I would say that it does not. Also too, when you talk about reaction to Christie’s obesity being a socio-biological thing, how do you reconcile that with differing standards of beauty across different cultures and during different time periods?

  196. 196.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    @opal:

    Get over it.

    Wow. Rush me to the burn unit.

  197. 197.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    @Catsy:

    Truly, the voice of Substance over Style

    You should know Catsy:

    I am planning a Portal-themed collaborative display for next year’s BrickCon

  198. 198.

    wrb

    October 14, 2011 at 7:29 pm

    differing standards of beauty across different cultures and during different time periods?/blockquote>

    The classic explanation is health based.

    When a people is starving, fat signifies health and success.

    When there is an excess of food fat signifies ill health- even imminent death- lack of self discipline, and suggests obsessive-compulsive weirdness.

    Anyway, I’m being called to dinner.

  199. 199.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    @wrb: I’ve also heard class-based explanations: when money is scarce, fat shows that one has the resources for food.

    But whatever the explanation is, it’s patently untrue that fat hatred is biological.

    But if it’s patently untrue, that must be why FourLoko clings to it.

  200. 200.

    Amir Khalid

    October 14, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    @Samara Morgan:
    Chihuahuas are a breed of dog, not a species. Even dogs are not a separate species; they are merely the domesticated descendants of wolves.

  201. 201.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    @Samara Morgan: @Samara Morgan: You lied at your first address to me in this thread above comment, linked here.

    You also lied by not quoting my comment in it’s entirely.

    The intellectually honest thing to do is to apologize.

    I’ll be gentle on you. Usually, when someone attempts such transparent Breitbart-esque tactics, I call them “a lying sack of shit”.

    i believe i’ll go ride my horse.

    Tucking your tail between your legs and running away?

  202. 202.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    Doug, my response to the child is in moderation for having too many links to prove her lies. Please remove from the filter? THX.

  203. 203.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 14, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    @suzanne:

    But whatever the explanation is, it’s patently untrue that fat hatred is biological.

    This, of course, was my point.

  204. 204.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 8:08 pm

    @suzanne:

    Don’t worry about it, fat is a good thing.

    Fat means you’re going to live.

  205. 205.

    PIGL

    October 14, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    @Catsy: Although part of me would like to see something much more satisfyingly drastic in the article of retribution befall the scum who manipulated peoples pension funds into 401k’s that were designed to be pillaged…..well, let’s say I am not interested in who is guilty as sin and who is a mere hanger on with the darling family you imagine.

    I want all their income treated as income, their income taxed at progressive rates such as used to prevail 40 years ago, and I don’t want any of their kids inheriting, directly or indirectly, more than a million or so. As long as we have a tax system like that in place, I need not concern myself with filtering the spotless Christian heroes from the ocean of corrupt self-serving mother-fuckers. The SSMF’s will not acquire enough money, under my system, to pose a treat.

  206. 206.

    Ren

    October 14, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    @Hugh:
    It’s probably fuzzy because of Doug’s conflicted loyalties.

    Some of his best friend(s) are bank(st)ers. The same friend who treats him to 300 dollar bottles of wine. Maybe he’s feeling guilty. Even though he knows that his banker friend “thinks” he ought to be taxed more –and he really is a good guy. But you guys balk at spending more than twenty dollars on bottle of wine. And E.D. Kain’s chart detailing the disproportionate rising finance salaries is damning, isn’t it? Know your audience.

  207. 207.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 8:16 pm

    @opal: Oh, sweetie, thanks for calling me fat. It TOTALLY burnishes your intellectual credibility. I mean, goodness, in the face of that kind of persuasion, how could anyone fail to be convinced of your point of view?

  208. 208.

    b-psycho

    October 14, 2011 at 8:30 pm

    @Samara Morgan: So I see the pie is getting confrontational. Cool…

  209. 209.

    Mnemosyne

    October 14, 2011 at 8:47 pm

    @opal:

    Some folks here are going wolf pack on Samara on style over substance.

    No, we’re going wolf pack on her because she called suzanne a liar and then tried to back off and pretend she never said it:

    @suzanne: of course you do.
    you dont want to admit that Christie is unelectable because he’s OBESE.
    hahaha
    and Romney is unelectable because hes a MORMON.
    lawlz.

  210. 210.

    Mnemosyne

    October 14, 2011 at 8:50 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    some people believe in nature, some people believe in nuture.

    Some people think it’s a both/and question, not an either/or, because nature and nurture work together to produce a result.

    But I realize your brain only operates in oppositional mode and doesn’t understand things like “nuance” or “reality,” which is why you have to shove people into a “nature” or “nurture” box without ever understanding the actual question at hand.

  211. 211.

    Samara Morgan

    October 14, 2011 at 8:52 pm

    @suzanne: lawl.
    you took my comment out of context, so i took yours.
    fat or mormon REPUBLICANS are unelectable. because their base will not vote for them.
    i guess because they dont have a sanctimonious pompous puffed up jackass like you on the Right to defend them and scold people into voting for them.

    @wrb: oh please.
    in contemporary american culture fat signals one of two things.
    old or poor.
    fat women are post-menopausal in nature. fat men are just old.
    poor people are fat in america, because they cant afford to eat properly.
    american culture glorifies youth and wealth. thin approximates youth.
    never too rich or too thin, eh?

  212. 212.

    suzanne

    October 14, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    you took my comment out of context, so i took yours.

    And what comment would that be?

    sanctimonious pompous puffed up jackass like you

    I love you, too.

  213. 213.

    The Spy Who Loved Me

    October 14, 2011 at 9:30 pm

    @Dougerhead:

    Maybe some protester will beat the snot out of one of your very good bankster friends, since you’ve mentioned that you have a few, and then you can think “fuck yeah, serves him right,” while on your way to visit him in the hospital.

    Really, Doug? Jesus, grow up.

  214. 214.

    opal

    October 14, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    @suzanne:

    You’re welcome.

  215. 215.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    @Samara Morgan:

    fat or mormon REPUBLICANS are unelectable.

    Are you fucking kidding me?

    You can make a reasonable argument about being Mormon. I personally think that when faced with a choice between:
    1) a black socialist Muslim leftist Democrat, or;
    2) a corporatist RINO Mormon who is willing to advance the conservative agenda when it’s in his own political interest;
    Republican voters are going to hold their noses and vote against the scary black man. Because in the end, they hate Obama and want to end him a lot more than they hate Mormons and RINOs. I mean, they were willing to make their peace with John McCain, a man who based his “maverick” career on sticking it to his own party.

    But fat? Being fat disqualifies you in the Republican Party?

    We’re talking about the same party that worships at the altar of Rush Limbaugh, right? Because I assure you that if he ever ran, they would be falling over themselves for the right to vote for him.

    Honestly though, I don’t really think you have a grasp on just how much bullshit and distaste the typical committed Republican voter is willing to swallow in order to vote against a Democrat or for a culture war issue. And they’re the ones who overwhelmingly determine the outcome of primaries and (especially) caucuses, not a random sample of 1,020 Americans from all 50 states.

    ETA: FYWP.

  216. 216.

    Catsy

    October 14, 2011 at 9:54 pm

    Argh, can someone please un-FYWP my comment above?

  217. 217.

    different-church-lady

    October 15, 2011 at 12:01 am

    @opal:

    Some folks here are going wolf pack on Samara on style over substance.

    How the hell do you go wolfpack on a hyena?

  218. 218.

    suzanne

    October 15, 2011 at 12:24 am

    @Samara Morgan: You’ve had a few hours now to provide those links you promised. Since you can’t provide any, I’ll settle for your apology.

  219. 219.

    Samara Morgan

    October 15, 2011 at 9:21 am

    @Catsy: UNELECTABLE AS PRESIDENT you dimwitted simpleton.
    Distributed Jesusland can elect fat folk and mormons.
    Because its localized mobrule.

  220. 220.

    suzanne

    October 15, 2011 at 11:05 am

    @Samara Morgan:

    Distributed Jesusland can elect fat folk and mormons.

    Um, you know that Mitt Romney was the governor of Massachusetts, and Chris Christie is the governor of New Jersey, right? Hardly “distributed Jesusland”. Besides, I thought your case was that Mormonism and fatness would alienate Republicans. Now you’re saying that the only place they can win is in heavily Republican areas? Epic logic fail. But, from you, I expect nothing less.

    :::bookmarking this thread for future evidence of FourLoko’s lies and nastiness:::

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. The enemy is everywhere says:
    October 14, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    […] Doug J (he’ll always be Doug J to me, dammit) makes a good point: […]

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