I fucking give up. If you want to be offended by everything I write and police my language, please fuck off and go somewhere else.
I try to be as minimally offensive as possible, but you know what, you motherfuckers keep shifting the rules. I’m to the point that I have no idea what is going to upset the delicate flowers any more.
I try to be fair, real, and honest. If I say things that are offensive to you but 90% of the time you agree with me, how about you just deal with it when I am not within the bounds of your idealized PC perfection? Or email me politely?
A couple of (I put that of there for you, EEMOM) fucking weeks ago I made the (APPARENTLY) grievous mistake of saying “illegal aliens.” A bunch of you pounced on me to tell me how horrible I was for using that phrase, and then, in the comments, which exceeded a couple hundred, not one of you politically correct wankers could come up with a term that made you happy. This was your pc circle jerk I had to deal with
“Illegal Alien”- ASSHOLE, THEY ARE NOT ALIENS THEY ARE PEOPLE
“Illegal immigrant”- THEY AREN’T IMMIGRANTS, THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AND WORK HERE!
“Illegal residents”- PEOPLE CAN’T BE ILLEGAL!
“Undocumented Immigrants”- HOW ARE THEY IMMIGRANTS WHEN THEY ONCE OWNED THIS LAND?
“Undocumented Workers”- MANY OF THEM ARE JUST KIDS, THEY ARE NOT ALL WORKERS.
And after all that angst, not one fucking person came up with a phrase that satisfied everyone. Can I say “black” or does it have to be “African-American” even though all the “black” dudes I knew in the army hated that term because they were in Germany and Kuwait and elsewhere with me, and their defining characteristic was being FUCKING AMERICAN. Should Elon change the name of his show to “THIS WEEK IN AFRICAN AMERICANESS?” to appease you guys?
Tonight, I quipped about rather “showering in prison,” and of course, that means I favor prison rape. That’s not a “rape” joke. But yet, I get told I am making rape jokes.
At some point, you language police have got to come up with a coherent dictionary for all of us to use, or just shut the fuck up. And then, maybe you should look into intent, take the message for what it was, because if I am public enemy number one, then you losers are going to shit the bed if you ever bust out of your bubble and watch or hear anything outside your little world you have constructed. My goodness, the Marcellus Wallace scenes in Pulp Fiction would probably stroke you out.
So put up or shut up. Give me your PC dictionary so I can be cool and sensitive, or just eat a bag of salted dicks and recognize that not everything said is out of bigotry or malice. Or at least fucking cut me some slack and recognize that should I offend your delicate sensibilities, it was not out of malice. Kapiche?
My god, rap and hip-hop must put you all in the fetal position.
And by the way, I still say third world countries when I know I am supposed to say LDC’s. Some things take time.
*** Update ***
The other thing that drives me insane is the suggestion I am making shit up. From the last thread:
This sounds like another made up story. I’m beginning to wonder about you, Cole.
Why would I make that story up? How does it make me look good in any way? Seriously.
You want to know what a made-up story sounds like? Here goes:
So I had my driver pick me up and take me to the lottery commission because I just won the 600 million dollar powerball, and my friend Heather Graham was in the back seat with me rocking her roller skates ala Boogie Nights. We were driving along, and we found a couple of members of the US Olympic women’s beach volleyball team stranded by the road in a broke down van (wtf were they doing in WV- forget it, it wasn’t over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, either), so I had my driver pull over, and we tried to help them but they had no cell service or anywhere to be for the next week, so they hopped in the limo and started partying. After I got my check, I went to the bank and deposited it and took home all the cash they had on hand, then went to another branch and cleaned out their cash reserves, too. Then we went home, and I just threw the money on the floor and we all lay there naked in the pile of money doing amyl nitrate until I got bored and said “You know what? I’m going to call my friend Bar Rafaeli and see if she and Brooklyn Decker have any blow and want to party.” I only got hold of Bar, but she said she was supposed to meet Jay-Z and Beyonce, and I told her to just come over with all of them and we could have a helluva good time.
The party was great, but I felt kind of guilty because when I woke up the next morning, this blonde South African girl named Candice (I think her name was Swanepoel) was in bed with me and sobbing because I apparently was a more attentive lover to Allesandra. I apologized and asked her to go to Miami Beach with me for a week to stay in my condo, and then gave her my keys to my spare Lamborghini Murciélago, told her I loved her and would see her in a few days.
That is what made up bullshit looks like. Not “I walked the dogs and came back and there was porn broadcasting through my windows.” Not- “I complimented some woman at the grocery.” Not “I was mopping naked and slipped and almost brained myself in the toilet.”
For fuck’s sake people. Get a grip.
ulee
You’re grounded.
Laertes
Capisce, douchebag. Your spelling is racist.
Francisco The Man
That was a pretty good one.
Blue Shark
Try… Undocumented Residents.
Covers all the bases.
John
What’s wrong with eating dicks, you homophobe/misogynist?
NickT
@Blue Shark:
Leave the raccoons aloooone!
NickT
@John:
He’s a homogynist homogenizer!
Rachel in Portland
No good deed goes unpunished.
Daniel
How DARE you!?! :D
ChaseBears
i blame tumblr
NickT
@Rachel in Portland:
Or, to state the Romney Corollary:
No bad deed goes unrewarded.
Amanda in the South Bay
Well it looks like I am not really welcome around here anymore -needless to say having the blog owner slag you in the front page isn’t the best feeling to have.
WJS
Now you’re hating on unsalted dicks, as if you don’t care how that makes people feel. How rude.
The liberal blogosphere is coming apart and Digby sums it up best:
If language doesn’t get the outrage going, then nothing will.
NickT
@Amanda in the South Bay:
This is definitely turning into one hell of a bizarre night here on Balloon-Juice.
kwAwk
Are you really bothered by all this Cole or are you just trolling?
Who cares if some over sensitive person gets upset about the word illegal immigrants? They immigrated in an illegal manner.
Who cares if someone gets upset by the idea of prison rape? Prison rape happens and it is unpleasant.
kyle
I say good for you, Cole. Yeah, there are bigots in the world, but there’s also a ton of pissant jerks who want to feel important by putting others on the spot for supposedly “offensive” word choice.
ulee
@Amanda in the South Bay: Don’t go. Cole is just a teenager. You told him he should clean his room and he has thrown a fit.
Everett Volk
Most of us liberals are retards, pussies, wetbacks and faggots, and thus very sensitive about language. Your words, they hurt our sensitive fee-fees. Also, fuck everyone. Cole can say what he wants you fucking douchebags, and I hope it gives you a big sad.
El Caganer
Well, people can get the vapors online over words and phrases, or they can do something useful with their lives. I know which one I’m going for – fuck off, Cole, you racist bastard, and can the insults to dicks, pickled, cured or otherwise preserved.
Ted & Hellen
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Poor brave flower.
But you are correct. Please go away.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@ulee:
LOL, well put! In a couple of hours he’ll probably post a groveling apology.
kwAwk
And Cole, thousands of people appear to read this blog everyday. Mainly because you’re much much funnier than Ezra Klein. Never heard him make a joke about showering in prison.
jl
Yeah well, we all got problems and frustrations.
I, along with an intrepid sub-tribe of commenters try to rile up people with repeated hating on hillbillies and with snotty comments about lack of teeth, bear greased pompadours and mullets, squirrel brains, ‘possum dinners, bare feet, impetigo, 400 proof moonshine, laks or reedin riting ‘n’ faygurs, ringworm, pellagra, ramps, gingham patches, and whatever I can think of.
I don’t mention incest, because this is a family blog, but commenters don’t give a damn.
No complaints about that.
And I thought Cole was an insensitive brute. He says so himself. Why does he care? Or is this a BJ troll post?
NotMax
Promoting NaCl use?
Salt is bad for you.
(ducks)
Everett Volk
@Everett Volk: I’m so fucking offended by everything I just said. I think I need a good cry . . . . and possibly a fast and a cleanse to rid myself of all the accumulated toxins. Someone get some sage!
scav
@Blue Shark: Wouldn’t Differently Documented fit pre-existing molds better? Besides, there were also comments that they had documents, just not the ones they needed for current residency purposes. jpgs and gifs also weren’t sufficient.
Bruce S
Give me a break, with your ragaholic bullshit. If you don’t want to deal with hectoring crap from useless assholes, you shouldn’t have a fucking blog. And if I wanted to read a post that uses terms like “LDC” instead of the English language I’d go over to fucking Foreign Policy Magazine. What the fuck with all of the outrage? As for “salted dicks”, you’ve emptied the bag. If you hate your stupid fucking commenters as much as you claim – and you should – you can just shut off our lifeline to making your pathetic life even more miserable. Capisce? But you won’t – because you need this bullshit, you twisted motherfucker.
Redshirt
Yes, it was a prison rape joke. Which is cruel.
But, why are you so sensitive? It’s a tactless joke, par for the course, we all move on.
Ted & Hellen
I have always found (staged) prison rape gay porn to be rather titillating. Me and a few million other people…
Is this wrong of me? Am I a bad person?
Will Amanda In the South Delicate Flower Bay permit the continued production of such films?
cbear
@Amanda in the South Bay: No Amanda, you don’t need to go away and you shouldn’t. You’re not the first person Cole has flamed and you damn sure won’t be the last.
Redshirt
@Bruce S: Nice. That was some Grade A Rage right there. Freelined it.
dollared
Hey JC, those are not LDCs anymore. They are, at least for next five years, “Emerging Markets.” After that I assume they will just be “our overlords.”
Villago Delenda Est
I would hope (but I’m not holding my breath) that some people would just chill the eff out a bit and cut John a little slack here. Likewise, John, you should cut them a little slack.
All those terms are euphemisms for “terrible brown Spanish-speaking people who are not properly white in the Confederate sense of the word white”. The important thing is that we understand that the immigrants who are in this country without going through the bureaucratic process (aka the “illegal immigrants”) do make valid contributions, much more valid ones than much of the 1% do, to the wealth of the nation as a whole.
Also, too, immigrants, both processed through the bureaucracy and not, have always been a flashpoint in American politics. This is nothing new. Getting hung up on terms at the expense of finding solutions to problems is not a good idea. John is coming from the same side as you are, stop being splitters, OK?
maya
Why not just Paperless Americans? Sounds eco.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ted & Hellen:
My mind reels with sarcastic replies.
Bruce S
@Villago Delenda Est:
“Getting hung up on terms at the expense of finding solutions to problems is not a good idea.” But it’s so much easier!
Ted & Hellen
OH GOD AMANDA, PLEASE NO, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT GOOOOOOOOOOO…
NickT
@Villago Delenda Est:
Are trolls persons? I guess they fit in with corporations at some level.
kwAwk
@maya:
As long as they’re not toilet paperless I can accept it.
ulee
@Ted & Hellen: Yes, you are a bad person.
SatanicPanic
Is this worse or better than the time your pepper was too big?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@SatanicPanic: Far worse. Cole’s commenters subjected him to the Spanish Inquisition, which he obviously never expected.
Seanly
The only thing worse than conservatives harping about the old, tired & dead PC language movement is the asinine liberals who act exactly like the caricatures that conservatives trot out. There’s sensitivity to others and then there’s just be an uptight asshole.
Patty
John, I like what you say and I want you to stay just the way you are.
Redshirt
PC Police gonna get you, mon.
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic:
I’m wondering if this is a more major emotional event than the missing mustard, myself.
cbear
I say—slather them all with mustard and let God sort ’em out!
Villago Delenda Est
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
“And now…the comfy chair!”
Jay
Mr. Cole,
I threw a couple of haymakers at you the other day, but most of the time, you come off as a good dude, so I figure you’re up on the debate over “illegal.”
To me, that word is all kinds of fail, right up there with “alien.” Jose Antonio Vargas, a wonderful writer who outed himself as undocumented, has long been making a smart case for the “u word” (I trust you read him; if not, hit Mr. Google.) Me? I have no problem calling, say, someone who comes over the border (either border, to be clear) just to do violent crimes “illegal.” Words can be weapons, and if those weapons are used smartly, you might be able to get a criminal to feel at least a bit of shame by using “illegal.”
Here’s the rub, though: there are people in this country who won’t say the Bush Administration committed a crime by authorizing torture, but will say, without flinching, that working a crap job in the shadows in the hope your family won’t starve makes you a criminal. That’s fcking bullshit. It needs to stop, and it’s why we should use a term like “undocumented people” a bit more liberally in our discussions about immigration.
WJS
@SatanicPanic: Yes, can we focus the rage on pieces of pepper that are too big? Can we hear about how this massive pepper mill that Cole owns is now a home defense weapon? Mr. Cole, please clarify whether you have cleaned the pepper mill and are there dull blades or pieces inside that, once repaired, might render the pepper mill an appropriate instrument of pepper destruction and/or deconstruction?
scav
@kwAwk: Wait, those were Venezuelans, no? Otherwise, I like Paperless Americans as it captures the element of never going to be achievedness. Although one free copy of USA Today that leaves inky smudges would seem to resolve the issue. mmmmm
The Dangerman
Eating a bag of salted dicks will give me nightmares over the new KFC campaign (“I ate the boners! I ATE the boners!!”). How cruel of you.
handy
Hey how about those Heat, huh? That LeBron sure is something.
Duh
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Redshirt
Lighten up, Francis.
Ramiah Ariya
The odd thing here is of course, that legal “aliens” such as H1B workers are regularly called “indentured servants” by our esteemed mistermix and others here. They have no problem with that term. You see, it is ok to call H1B workers slaves or servants because they don’t vote and have no constituency. But OMG don’t call illegal aliens as aliens or illegal or anything!
gussie
“Shit the bed?” Jesus fuck, Cole.Some of us are dealing with some pretty heavy stuff in real life, and we don’t need your scorn and mockery.
handy
And yes, I concur with others that in hours time when the haze clears you John Cole will be back in rare form posting with your tail between your legs asking people for forgiveness.
That’s okay, though, you had me at “the Marcellus Wallace scenes would probably stroke you out.”
kwAwk
@Jay:
You may not be aware of this but it is illegal to enter this country without proper documentation. I don’t think that the term illegal immigrant is meant to denote that a person’s very existence is suspect, it’s just a term to describe those who enter the country illegally.
We may choose to have empathy for those who are here illegally and it may be the best policy to deal with illegal immigrants by giving them a chance to stay but that doesn’t really change how they got here.
ulee
I think Cole is setting himself up as a foil. Noone can be this guileless and culturally innocent.
NotMax
scav
Crimmigrants.
(ducks again)
handy
@ulee:
You’d be surprised.
AxelFoley
Is Cole backsliding to his old Republican ways? LOLOLOLOLOL
Mnemosyne
I generally use “illegal workers” since that seems to be the biggest problem. I don’t really get my panties in a bunch about kids without the proper papers going to school since they or their parents are paying towards it in local taxes.
Spaghetti Lee
I’m going to try and be levelheaded here, seeing as how I wasn’t involved in the original thread.
The book that basically introduced me to liberalism was Naomi Klein’s No Logo (yes, I’m a youngster) and one of the things Klein talked about was liberal activists in the 80’s and 90’s, having lost their fight against Reagan and against corporatization in general, basically spent too much time looking inward and focusing on terms and language and coming up with as John puts it “PC dictionaries”. They didn’t even try to connect with people outside their circles, and it was essentially all for nothing. Say what you will about the WTO protests in Seattle, that era, but at least it got more attention.
Am I crazy to think something similar is happening now? Someone upthread blamed Tumblr, which, yeah. Look, it’s a fine repository for Avengers porn, but the sociopolitical dialogue that goes on there, well, “PC circle jerk” would be too kind. And I say this as someone who agrees with a lot of the ideas, but just can’t stand the tendentiousness of it all. A lot of these people couldn’t even give you a basic understanding of labor rights or environmental issues or progressive taxation, but they sure know which summer blockbusters qualify as cultural imperialism. I don’t think that bodes well, personally, but maybe I’m just being pessimistic. Probably the people who will actually lead on those fronts aren’t on tumblr.
Redshirt
Cole is a two time W voter.
Never forget.
Haydnseek
Nobody was shifting the rules. A few of us just wished to discuss the changes in the stylebooks of the largest newspapers in the country. Others took the conversation into several different directions, offering their suggestions as to proper terminology. I thought it was a good thread, but now forgotten, as threads always are. Then Cole gets a bird dropped in his lap, sees a milf over the cracker barrel, has an existential crisis over his Louisville Slugger pepper mill, and the next thing you know, he’s got his nose in the Scotch keg and decides to take a few swings at, well, everybody. Hilarity ensues.
handy
@Redshirt:
Who likes to share his softcore with his neighbors. Will no one think of the children?!
brashieel
I have to admit, I absolutely love manic Cole blogging sprees. They are totally sincerely one of my top two favorite parts of this blog.
That this spree is aimed at the language police is just a bonus.
Rock on, JC.
Mnemosyne
@kwAwk:
Except that quite a few of them entered the country perfectly legally and then overstayed their visas, so they are now here illegally.
Of course, those are mostly white people from places like Ireland and Poland who apparently aren’t considered quite as suspiciously “illegal” as the ones from Spanish-speaking countries to the south of us. Hmm, I wonder why that is?
Jay
@kwAwk:
“You may not be aware of this but it is illegal to enter this country without proper documentation.”
Seriously?
Fuck you.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Ramiah Ariya: You think that references to how H1B visa holders are treated by employers are the same as using the term “illegal alien”?
Mnemosyne
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Given that quite a few regulars seem to have missed the kerfuffle in the first place, I would sit back and wait for tomorrow’s shamefaced apology after the whiskey wears off.
Gian
illegal alien was/is the legal term out of the US code, for decades it was perhaps annoying but recently has risen to the level of offensive due to the sneering way that the like of Lou Dobbs shorten it to “illegals”
Some of it seems to me to be the way it’s said/meant.
I have vague memories of a 1980s Genisis song “it’s no fun being an illegal alien”
yes, it was long after peter Gabriel left, hope it’s not a curse of an earworm
Haydnseek
@Villago Delenda Est: Damn! I KNEW someone would beat me to it!
scav
Well, if we’ve gotten to the purer then thou stage of political preening, It’s gone officially dull and pompous.
Suzanne
God, it’s pretty disheartening to realize that simply pointing out that offensive terms are offensive is enough to send you over the edge. Whining about how having to be PC, aka “sensitive to the feelings of others who do not enjoy the same social privilege as myself”, is what grumpy old Republican douchebags used to do back in the 90s.
SatanicPanic
@Villago Delenda Est: I am making jokes because frankly this shit is silly. All the Mexicans I grew up with (Mexican Americans? they’re Americans but they call themselves Mexican, because their culture is Mexican) seemed fine with Illegal, but I don’t think anyone liked the Alien part. I still might say “illegal immigrant.” It wasn’t until I got to college and went to a few MECHA meetings that I’d ever heard anyone make it into a big issue. Growing up everyone I know was like “yeah, they broke the law coming here, so what?” It just meant they didn’t have their papers in order. Not so different from stealing cable TV or speeding on the highway. A minor infraction. Maybe the fact that California used to be a part of Mexico meant that people could hear themselves called “illegals” and not think it defined them. I honestly don’t know.
Redshirt
Give ’em Hell, Cole!
Well, not Hell, of course, cuz that’s not appropriate. How ’bout Heck? Or Het?
Redshirt
LOUD NOISES
kwAwk
@Mnemosyne:
I agree that a lot of the resistance to passing comprehensive immigration reform is based on racism.
SatanicPanic
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Sounds more like he got the Chicano Inquisition.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne:
If this were the late 19th century, those “white” people from places like Ireland and Poland (and very much Italy) wouldn’t quite count as white like someone from say Scotland, or Germany, or the Netherlands.
Just to illustrate how persistent this particular issue has been for over two centuries.
Anne Laurie
@Seanly:
Hand to goddess, I was in a feminist fanzine group back in the late 1970s where one of the gay male contributors decided to start a crusade against using “asshole” as an insult, because so many gay men found the human rectum their primary source of sexual delight. Even among the hypersensitive individuals who still used “PC” as a badge of honor, that… did not succeed.
I’m still not sure whether that guy was trolling or not. Hey, T&H, did you live in Portland OR during the 1970s? Could you have passed for an sf fan?
Ultraviolet Thunder
I just landed in Mexico. It used to br a third world country and I can see how that would be derogatory.
But how does calling it a Least Common Denominator help?
Oh, hell. I gotta get up in the morning. Never mind.
Villago Delenda Est
@Redshirt:
Banging on a bottle like a chimpanzee. That ain’t workin’. That’s the way you do it! Money for nothin’ and your chicks for free!
Ramiah Ariya
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Yes, I am sure H1B workers are treated as “indentured servants”. Absolutely, compared to the way Hispanics are treated in the US. After all, it is not as if a Labor Certificate process exists for H1B workers. Oh, wait….
The Dangerman
Suzanne, but what if pointing out something being offensive is, in turn, offensive to the original person? Two wrongs, etc.
Spaghetti Lee
My god, rap and hip-hop must put you all in the fetal position.
That’s why I listen exclusively to Kenny G and Enya.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@Villago Delenda Est:
The only illegal alien that I personally know is a Pole. He also works his ass off. Frequently for free out of charity.
Villago Delenda Est
@Spaghetti Lee:
/assumes fetal position upon reading those words
Yatsuno
@Redshirt:
HETERONORMIST!!
(I don’t know if that’s a thing or not.)
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Ramiah Ariya: Yes, they are. They are brought here from various countries on the pretense that they are essential labor that can’t be found in the USA, and are given “jobs” at pay far below what an American would make, and have to toe a line set by the employer, who can fire them and have them instantly sent back to where they came from. Not much different from how undocumented Latinos are treated, even if they do have a visa to be here.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ultraviolet Thunder:
This is the thing about these “illegals”. The vast majority of them are hard working individuals who still see this fucked up country as a land of opportunity, despite the best efforts of the 1% to turn it into some industrial-feudal state.
Redshirt
@Yatsuno: Het no, my canine.
Nicole
This is because I got annoyed about people talking about how much they hate geese, isn’t it?
Joel (Macho Man Randy Savage)
I’m tired of your stupid ass fucking questions….
TheOtherWa
@Anne Laurie: That made me laugh. Even when everyone’s bitching at everyone else, you’re still some of the funniest people I read on the internets.
Carry on.
Redshirt
@Nicole: Geese do suck though. That’s an objective fact, whatever other reality Cole wants to spin not withstanding.
SatanicPanic
@Gian: This is a good point- illegals sounds fucked up, because now that’s the defining characteristic of someone. I know a handful of people who have been deported from various countries- the USA, the EU, and that fact isn’t close to the first thing that comes to mind when I think of them.
handy
You know who else lets other people drive their exotic sports cars? Well, not that guy, but this one’s a pretty big douche too.
srv
FAIR? Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick! You can’t even start a posting without being a bigoted fat head.
I’m emailing the Ombudsman
handy
@srv:
Damn.
Saw what you just did. That’s gonna leave a mark.
John Cole
@srv: I love you.
Yatsuno
@Redshirt: Goose eggs are quite tasty though. Nasty shits as adults I agree.
Ramiah Ariya
@The prophet Nostradumbass: You have no idea. They are not “brought” there – they come there of their own volition, so don’t bring in the slave imagery there. They are not given jobs that pay “far below” Americans because the H1B Labor Clearance exists precisely for that purpose. Most H1B workers I know make much more than American workers, and some make less, but that has more to do with usual variations among workers, than some sinister “indentured servant” myth.
I am sure “firing them and having them sent back to where they came from” never happens to American workers, right? No, siree, you are all never fired.
Again, what you mention are simply talking points so that the white-collared can preserve their privileged position. You can lecture about H1B workers after you call Latinos as indentured servants, ok?
Suzanne
@Anne Laurie: While I find that extreme, I don’t get why someone asking you not to use a specific term merits such anger. For example, as a teenager, I typically used the term “retarded” as a slur. People who had more contact/engagement with the developmentally disabled pointed out that that made their lives even harder. I stopped, and somehow managed to find some other ways to express the same idea. Histrionics about “thought police” and “PC language destroying freewheeling flow of ideas” fail to acknowledge that it’s really not that fucking hard, and if you honestly can’t talk about people without using an offensive term, you’re kind of, well…. Not too bright.
Anne Laurie
@Suzanne:
Also the 60s, 70s, and 80s. I can attest, from personal experience! Of course Cole is a grumpy ex-Republican (and recovering douchebag) so there is still hope for future improvement. At least, unlike for example Andrew Sullivan, once Cole’s learnt to avoid a particular form of linguistic/sociological ugliness, he doesn’t keep going back to his original error in hope of getting more attention…
The prophet Nostradumbass
@The prophet Nostradumbass: What’s especially assholish about how H1Bs are treated is that they usually aren’t even employed by the companies they ostensibly work for, but are “employed” by a nasty contracting company that suck part of the workers’ pay out as a fee for getting them to the US.
Suzanne
@The Dangerman: is it really offensive to you if someone points out that you just committed an accidental unkindness against them? I mean, it’s awkward, but is it really offensive?
For example, if a rape survivor objects to Cole’s prison rape joke and says so, do you really find that commensurate?
Ramiah Ariya
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Yes, subcontracting never applies anywhere else in the US industry, I am sure. Your complaints are hilarious because whatever you mention already happens without H1B workers.
Mnemosyne
@Ramiah Ariya:
I’m getting a feeling that you don’t actually know what indentured servants were. They were essentially slaves with an end date to their slavery.
So, no, Tyson Foods bringing illegal workers to the US to undercut local salaries and tech companies bringing H1B workers to the US to undercut local salaries isn’t really all that different, except that the H1B workers don’t have to worry as much if they get pulled over.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Ramiah Ariya: You’re shitting me, you actually think that companies give H1B workers pay equivalent to American workers? There are all sorts of ways to get around that legal requirement.
Undocumented Latinos are frequently treated like indentured servants as well. The “coyotes” who bring them across the border rig things so that the people they smuggle will never actually pay off their “debt”.
The Dangerman
@Suzanne:
Using a word like “retarded” is one thing; saying “showering in prison” equates to “prison rape” is quite another.
Again, who is being “offended” and who is being “offensive” isn’t clear in this matter.
Jewish Steel
Shouldn’t we be discussing this in quiet rooms?
ulee
Jeez. Sorry, Cole. It just sounds like you are making things up, not to make yourself look better, but to make yourself look like Charlie Chaplin.
Pinkamena Panic
I go to play some Awesomenauts and the whole site comes unraveled. Fuck it! I’m gonna go back to my game.
? Martin
I fail to understand how anyone on this blog can find the room to be offended about anything. I thought the point of this place was to be offensive. I mean, Cole use to lead with skull-fucking kittens.
Nate Dawg
John, YOU ROCK!
I’m about as left as they come—well left of the current crop of Dems and inclusive of all things gendered, non-gendered, in between, and sexually deviant. However, I can’t keep up with the PC police either and get in hot water occasionally over saying either the wrong term (just an outdated one) or gendered pronoun. Oh well. Your heart is in the right place, and I don’t mind your occasional gaucheness. (Though, I don’t even perceive it as gauche….but I guess it is based on the reactions here.)
–Nate Dawg
DirtyAussie
According to the US government I am a non-resident alien (came on a student visa). I am currently going through the process to get a green card, after which I shall be a resident alien. I will remain a resident alien until I get American citizenship. Alien, in the immigration sense, simply means non-citizen. Anyone claiming that this is offensive is simply an idiot.
Mnemosyne
@Ramiah Ariya:
Uh-huh. That was how my friend who was here from Singapore on an H1B found out she was being paid substantially less than her colleagues — the company was going to have to post her salary in the newsroom (she was a journalist) and they balked at everyone finding out how little she was getting.
I never get sent back to where I came from because I’m from here. It’s not like I’m going to be forced to move back to Chicago if I get fired from a job in California just because I was born in Chicago.
But, hey, if you don’t mind foreign workers being exploited at half the salary of their American colleagues, I guess that’s your deal.
Suzanne
@The Dangerman: “Showering in prison” might correlate to “prison rape” to rape victims, who are approximately 25% of the female population, depending on which stat you read. I don’t personally find it offensive, but it’s not unreasonable that someone might. And it certainly doesn’t merit this whine fiesta.
Bucky Reynolds
John, forget what these people say. I understand what you are saying when you put out these comments, and if people cannot understand what you are saying they need to wake up and understand what is going on around them.
Too many people focus on the minutiae and miss the substance of the message.
I love your work and just want to give you a big THANK YOU. Keep up the work.
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
If this were a *real* full-service blog, more of us commentariat would be getting singled out for front-page wedgies by the proprietor.
I mean, Jesus Christ on the Half Shell, do I have to go full-frontal mclaren to get a “fuck you!” from the Big Guy?!
The Dangerman
@Suzanne:
Now, see, you’re guilty of the same thing that whatever her name was; yes, you can take some text and possibly infer what it might mean, but, really, it’s not an iron clad certainty that the inference is correct.
I don’t necessarily have a problem blasting someone for what they say; doing so on an inference is an entirely different matter.
ETA: And, no, being a rape survivor, traumatic as that might be, doesn’t get you special privileges when being in the wrong.
Anne Laurie
@TheOtherWa: To put it in terms Cole might understand, I’m chaotic neutral (to his lawful good). I think he mainly invited me to be the token Vagina-American frontpager because he was simultaneously outraged & fascinated by all the ways in which he failed to understand my comments. Heck, every Sam Malone needs a Carla Tortelli!
eemom
Fuck the haters. Yer a good man, John Cole.
ps: also too — when you have a chance — it’s eemom, not EEMOM. kthxbai.
Ted & Hellen
@Suzanne:
You should probably stop reading and commenting here. I sense that doing so is painful for you.
rda909
Wow. Decided to stop by again to see if sense meandered over here yet regarding the NewsMax nonsense, but apparently not. Funny to see this post though, since I agree completely about the over-the-top language purity that has plagued the pure progressive for far too long, and I was completely understanding of site changes and never have a thought about them let alone comment, so I’m not some reactionary hypocritical shrieker. However, this NewsMax thing is a dealbreaker for me.
You know there are many other options for online ads, correct, that don’t promote right wing propaganda? And as far as a clicking on them to “take money away” from them, that’s rather silly since they are bankrolled by the wingnut welfare billionaires that fund the entire media nowadays. They simply don’t care about your simple “click costs” here and there as long as their manufactured lies are spread, and here they are still AT THE VERY TOP OF THIS PAGE EVERY DAY. Nowadays NewsMax goes out of its way to appear as a regular news source, and I’ve been noticing them pop up with the same headline ads at so many sites recently such as Yahoo, Huffington Post and the like, and now places like here. Since most people who read blogs do not comment, I’m positive there are many people who are not as attuned to the propaganda and are at least subconsciously influenced by them. As long as they keep showing up here, yet another mission accomplished for the wingnut welfare billionaires.
Spaghetti Lee
@Suzanne:
Well, everyone’s got different measures of what ‘extreme’ means, don’t they? And everywhere on the spectrum, people are thinking “MY standards are obviously the best ones, so if everyone just lived by THOSE, this whole issue would go away!”
Both the PC and non-PC groups (to use blunt terms) spend way too much time thinking the other one is out to get them, for the record. Most offense from the former is genuine, and not some attempt to embarrass people by calling them out for no reason, and most “incorrect” phrasings and words from the latter aren’t meant in a harmful way, and the people who say them aren’t bigots.
Me, I think the ‘power’ that words have can be overstated, and that focusing the big guns on them might be a tactical error. I’ve also felt what Cole feels, that it’s a game where the rules keep changing. I’ve personally been told that my opinion on race doesn’t matter explicitly because I’m white. How exactly do I respond to that? What I don’t get it is why folks like you don’t turn your considerable numbers and energy toward, say, running Freepers and Stormfronters off the internet. Instead, all these fights seem to take place between people who mostly agree with each other, maybe on everything except vocabulary. And some ‘SJWs’ I’ve seen on tumblr seem to literally hate ‘well-meaning’ white male liberals more than literal white supremacists. I guess it’s one of those uncanny-valley things. The divisions between the two groups of liberals are heightened because they’re so small, while the Nazis and white supremacists barely seem like the same species. Calling them out would be almost a moot point. Ah well.
Nate Dawg
Do people actually get offended? I mean, what is the experience of being offended? I feel like it’s a social construct.
Anger – I get that. Someone says some shit about jews, blacks, gays, what have you–righteous anger as a response, yes, but offense? Seems like a nonexistent emotional reaction that we’re taught to “experience” as a way of mediating the more dangerous one–anger.
Ramiah Ariya
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Not at all ‘shitting” you. I worked as a H1B worker in the US; I worked with American workers as well as several of my friends were H1B workers. NONE of them made lower than American workers. In fact, most of us made much more – I know, because I was a supervisor and knew about many people’s salaries. I don’t know why this comes as a surprise at all. It is ONLY among US liberals that this is somehow an article of wisdom – that H1B workers make less than American workers. Most of my friends made 6 figure salaries and only in your imagination would that be an indentured servant.
Again, if you feel illegal immigrants are equivalent to H1B workers, you are welcome to call Latinos indentured servants; and extend that to American workers who suffer from unfair labor practices. Somehow I don’t see you doing that.
Spaghetti Lee
@Anne Laurie:
Cole is lawful good? I don’t buy it.
Ramiah Ariya
@Ramiah Ariya: In your world, somehow the H1B labor clearance never exists. I don’t know why – but somehow you all have to pretend there is no such thing and that companies “bring” indentured servants from foreign lands only because they get to treat them as slaves. Again, you have no idea.
Ramiah Ariya
@Mnemosyne: Explain how the Labor Clearance works again? You are saying it is all a scam? Your “anecdote” yes pitted against mine – I earned much more than my American colleagues in Philadelphia – alright?
Villago Delenda Est
@DirtyAussie:
The problem, inevitably, is that it’s also used to describe entities from other planets. You know. Like Vulcans/Romulans (pointy eared freaks/pointy eared freaks with outrageous shoulder pads), Cardassians, (spoonheads), Twi’leks (worm heads), Wookiees (big walking carpets).
So, by all means, let’s get totally bent out of shape. I recall in the 60’s (I’m that old) seeing PSAs on the teebee every January reminding “Aliens” that they needed to register with the immigration department.
Anne Laurie
@Suzanne:
Did you grow up with brothers? There’s a strain of male primate behavior where being wrong-footed is a challenge, and if you don’t react with anger, you lose status within the group. Some guys (* cough * authoritarians * cough * ) take longer to outgrow this form of adolescence — heck, quite a few never do.
The morning-after grovelling is the developmental step after the subject realizes he’s being a tool, and before he realizes he can just not be a tool in the first place. If Cole ever achieves that level of maturity, it will certainly change the climate at this here blog.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Ramiah Ariya:
I don’t “call Latinos indentured servants”. I was talking about how undocumented workers are treated by unscrupulous human smugglers, and their enablers in the US, who prey upon Mexicans who want to make a better life for themselves. Your contempt for Latinos is pretty grotesque.
John Cole
@Anne Laurie: I invited you here because I thought you were smart, funny, tough, and I remembered your comments from Sadly No and here and thought you would be a great addition.
I was right. Plus, I like the fact you throw shit back in my face, so I was doubly right about you being tough.
Additionally, I like different opinions, and while we disagree on a lot, I think you and I are probably much more in line on our opinions about civil liberties than many people here recognize. For example, I don’t believe you think “MARCY WHEELER” and “GLENN GREENWALD” are dirty words.
TheOtherWa
@Anne Laurie: I won’t argue with your description as Carla at all.
Spaghetti Lee
@John Cole:
I don’t believe you think “MARCY WHEELER” and “GLENN GREENWALD” are dirty words.
Sure, because this thread wasn’t shouty enough already.
eemom
@Anne Laurie:
Actually, he invited you to post here because your self-awareness fail is so consistently and spectacularly hilarious to behold. Please, don’t ever change.
Villago Delenda Est
@John Cole:
“MARCY GREENWALD” and “GLENN WHEELER” on the other hand, can get you in trouble with the FCC.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@eemom: you forgot to call her a fifth-rate copyright violator.
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@Nate Dawg: My uber-social – ist wife and I constantly find the “wrong” things to laugh about, and we know that the jokes we make over them must NEVER leave our apartment.
Still, Holy FSM with Vodka Sauce, there are so many shitty thing happening to people in this madhouse of a country of ours resulting from too many of us giving the legislative keys to the inmates, how can a person have enough spare outrage left to get hopped up over some passing phrases in random blog posts?
One thing from the “both sides do it” laundry list that I can actually get on board with is that the most agitated factions of each side really need lessons on how to perform triage on what constitutes items worthy of letting the spittle fly and fleck over.
Suzanne
@Spaghetti Lee: I know that I personally do spend some time trying to change the minds of right-wingers and misogynists and racists. In general, I understand that people want a safe space among others who share their views some of the time, and that it can hurt if not even the people who ostensibly agree with you can be troubled to change a specific behavior for your benefit.
I agree with you that the semantic game is not the big fight. But it’s not that hard to just stop using a specific term once someone’s brought it to your attention. It’s not donating a fucking kidney, FFS.
eemom
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
copyright infringer. But thanks, that too.
Anne Laurie
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn:
See, here’s the problem: There’s a couple individual trolls I would enjoy front-paging to eviscerate, but that would give them attention they crave but don’t deserve. It’s more frustrating for them if I don’t highlight their many character flaws.
I assume Cole has a similar bias, though mostly with different trolls. I’d also banhammer more trolls than he does, but he’s lawful-good, and believes there’s a reason for everything in this imperfect universe, even worthless trolls.
The Dangerman
@Suzanne:
I lost a family member to kidney disease*; I’m offended.
*ok, no, I didn’t, but figured a lesson was in order
Suzanne
@Anne Laurie:
I’m guessing eemom’s purpose is “cautionary tale”.
Every blog needs a Norma Desmond, I suppose.
Anne Laurie
@Spaghetti Lee: So where on the grid would you put him? He sure the fck ain’t neutral, and there’s no way you can read his posts and think ‘chaotic’ is anything but terrifying to him…
ulee
@Anne Laurie: Cole is a great moderator. Hands off on the comments, even with a drunken idiot like me. Why are you so bitter?
NickT
@Anne Laurie:
This is Cole who loses mustard and gives the neighborhood accidental porn-flashes. Chaotic seems entirely plausible as part of his nature.
Anne Laurie
@John Cole: Thanks, Sam — and you’re right about those Scare Names, too also.
So which square do you wanna claim on the D&D grid?
Kris Collins
I’m not a long-time commenter here so I don’t get all the in-references among the regular, so I’m just going to try to be objective here. So, for what it’s worth 1) John, you own a popular blog, all kinds of assholes will respond to anything you say, for better or for worse, 2) Except for the tiny handful of commenters you have actually met and know, these people are not your friends, they are just people who write stuff in your comnents section and 3) given Nos. 1 and 2, you should realize that a lot of the crap they write attacking you both goes with the territory and is bullshit trolling that you should not take personally. So, in short, if the criticism seems reasonable, think about it and respond. Otherwise, fuck ’em. Capishe??
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@Suzanne: “Every blog needs a Norma Desmond, I suppose.”
I do believe those are standard issue. “Instant Norma Desmond: Just add blog!”
eemom
@Anne Laurie:
I would submit that deleting the comments of, and “banhammering”, folks whom your itty bitty mind labels as trolls, is more proof that you’re actually a chickenshit who can’t deal with outright confrontation, than anything else.
But hey, what do I know……Iz just a worthless troll…..with a reason for being in the universe!
Spaghetti Lee
@Anne Laurie:
Yeah, I’m going with Nick T. Chaotic something. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt: Chaotic good. Burns is lawful evil, and mclaren is chaotic evil.
NickT
@Spaghetti Lee:
And eemom is stuck in (chaotic) neutral.
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@Anne Laurie: Silly Serious Cat, I was talking about us general PITAs in the peanut gallery. (Could you not see that my tongue was planted so hard against my cheek that it was almost poking through?)
=o )
I have no qualms with how Cole handles the *real* mclarens here. I’d rather scroll past some “hey, lookit me, I’m outrageous!” posts rather than be suffocated in the way most right-wing bloggers micro-manage commentators’ posts.
LT
Aw, I hope it wasn’t me! I gave you shit about talking shit about animal hoarders, but hell. You know we love you, John.
P.S. A certain person who blogalogs at a certain internet site I know accused you of laughing at rape, and, uh, well, jeez – I don’t know what.
Be well, John. Don’t give up. You do do the world good, whether you like it or not.
Spaghetti Lee
@eemom:
Oh, eemom, I like you. You see, most trolls seem desperate for attention, but you seem to sincerely not give a fuck. Don’t lower yourself like that. “You’re just scared of me” is the mating call of every 15-year-old douchebag who’s ever been banned from a politics forum for spamming Alex Jones and Loose Change.. At the very least, you’re better than that.
trollhattan
I maintain this is the best hiatus from blogging, evah.
Carry on.
NickT
@trollhattan:
Wasn’t the hiatus supposed to last until Tuesday? Or did I dream it?
Suzanne
@Spaghetti Lee: I imagine it thusly:
“I totally don’t give a fuck. See, here I am, over here, not giving a fuck. DO YOU SEE HOW LITTLE OF A FUCK I GIVE?!?!”
Diagnosis: High school cheerleader who lost her looks, gained cooking sherry.
LT
@eemom: Can I just say that John, DougJ, and Anne Laurie are the 3 I read the most here – and eemom is a scary psycho? Yeah? Thanks.
fuckwit
I love it when Cole gets his anger issues in a wad. Makes this place fun.
Also, I cannot stand the PC police either. I left the Great Orange Satan because I couldn’t take it anymore– way too many PC police (that, and the firebaggers, sweet jeebus). It got ridiculous.
Look, big tent progressivism. I believe everyone should have equal opportunity, we’re all in this together, I understand privilege of gender and race and religion and sexual orientation, but I’m one a those privileged straight white middle-aged guys, and I don’t talk PC. I’m glad Cole doesn’t either.
So, let the man fucking rant. I don’t care of someone makes a joke about prison sex, I care whether gay people can have equal rights to marry and teach and serve and anything else they want to do. Oh, and whether we fix the horrible prison system in this country, which due to the War on Some Drugs has become essentially a racist institution. I don’t care whether PC speech is used, I care whether women have rights to medical care and equal pay and whatever the hell else they want to do. I don’t care what language is used to refer to immigrants, I care whether everyone who comes here gets a fair shake and a chance to succeed– and to become citizens. etc etc.
You know, forest, trees, folks. We have serious problems to deal with, and we all need to work together to fix them. Cranky old dinosaurs who share the same goals as you are not your enemies, we’re your friends.
Nevermind the fucking language. Work together to solve the problems.
srv
@Kris Collins:
If only you had been here 10 years ago to help John out with his problem. FYI, John prefers commenters directly email him with such personal advice.
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@NickT: Hell, didn’t Cole even recently post that he had no frikkin’ internets in his frikkin’ house?
Considering that he just flat out can’t quit us tells you all you need to know about how much he loves us.
@trollhattan: Congrats, you just made me squirt bourbon through my nose. Neat, mind you.
This is how Satan torments the souls of Hell — serves ’em a couple fingers of Wild Turkey 101 and then tells ’em jokes when they sip.
John Cole
@Anne Laurie: I am the walking definition of Chaotic Good. Or so I would like to think.
An argument could be made for the actions of my behavior turning out to be Neutral Good despite my intent, but my disdain for any authority and law points more to the former.
NickT
@Suzanne:
Baaad cooking sherry too.
NickT
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn:
Dunno, you could make a case for addiction rather than love.
nickrud
God, I love this blog. I come here daily, mostly for the quality writers you’ve collected over the years and the rescue stories. This rant is exhibit A when it comes to explaining why you’ve collected (and abased yourself, at times, to keep) writers of the caliber of Imani to Ms. Cracker.
You wear your life comfortably, warts and all.
The beauty marks barely win :)
Anne Laurie
@NickT:
Nah, us chaotics expect the mustard to go missing and the neighbors to share anecdotes behind our backs. But such lapses from the platonic ideal of Orderly Perfection are terrifying to Cole, who takes such pride in having a routine where things are predictable. The whole infamous Mopping While Naked anecdote — he felt the need to share that with a few thousand of his closest internet friends that he’s never met, just so we could reassure him that it was a funny story, could’ve happened to anybody really, nothing to get upset about. (The blog equivalent of ‘Does this look infected to you? Think I should see a doctor about it?’)
John Cole
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn: I figured out that my modem in the computer room was not working, but I could connect via wire to my phone modem (I have comcast xfinity- tv, phone, internet, and the phone is a different modem from the computer). So there.
Steeplejack
(Note: Weighing in without reading the comments.)
@Cole:
I don’t think it means that you favor prison rape, but it is a rape joke. What is the “humor” otherwise? Showering in a group? Being naked in front of other men? Then why not say “showering after gym class” or “showering at the Y”? Or even “I’d rather be back showering in the barracks in the Army”?
No, it’s a tired shorthand joke that’s supposed to be a little more hip and edgy than “I’d rather have a root canal.” But it’s played out—and offensive—in the same way that “dumb blonde” jokes, “women driver” jokes and “Negro” jokes are played out and offensive. It’s just that people don’t typically speak up (yet) on behalf of prison inmates.
bnut
I keep differing between this feeling and this feeling. And then I remember this is a blog and I go back to watching Top Chef.
NickT
@Anne Laurie:
Well, he says he’s Chaotic Good, so there. Yah boo etc etc.
John Cole
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
I will not make and drink a pot of coffee after 8 pm.
trollhattan
@NickT:
Confess I don’t remember the declared interval, just the comically brief time ’til the next post, then the next, then…Burgess Meredith flinging the terrible towel. Sure invigorated the lad, though.
Anne Laurie
@Suzanne: She’ll quit just as soon as Cole realizes his terrible mistake and gives her the keys to the front page…. i.e., on the twelfth of never.
eemom
@Spaghetti Lee:
Fair ’nuff. There is also the fact that she’d be hard pressed to find a Charlie Pierce column to copy on the topic of us BJ trollz.
NickT
@John Cole:
But now it’s pre 3 am, not post 8 pm.
Caffeination rights are clearly covered in the 47th Amendment.
srv
You know who else thought he was Chaotic Good?
George W Bush!
trollhattan
@John Cole:
Heh, had to abandoned my beloved Irish coffees for this very reason. I’d get to sleep okay, then at about two prang! the eyes fly open and that’s all the sleep I’ma gonna get.
Sigh
Suzanne
@Anne Laurie: Oh, I’m sure there will be the occasional hiatus. Like when she’s serving her 72 hours for her DUI.
LT
@John Cole:
I will not make “showering in prison” jokes after, well, ever. Because making jokes about such a real and inhumane and largely ignored problem in our country enhances its inhumanity and supports its being ignored. (Please.)
I will not make “showering in prison” jokes after, well, ever. Because making jokes about such a real and inhumane and largely ignored problem in our country enhances its inhumanity and supports its being ignored. (Please.)
I will not make “showering in prison” jokes after, well, ever. Because making jokes about such a real and inhumane and largely ignored problem in our country enhances its inhumanity and supports its being ignored. (Please.)
I will not make “showering in prison” jokes after, well, ever. Because making jokes about such a real and inhumane and largely ignored problem in our country enhances its inhumanity and supports its being ignored. (Please.)
I will not make “showering in prison” jokes after, well, ever. Because making jokes about such a real and inhumane and largely ignored problem in our country enhances its inhumanity and supports its being ignored. (Please.)
nickrud
@srv:
No, he was the Hand of God. Seriously. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/02/usa.religion .
No DnD mock categories for him.
Tim in SF
I love it when you go on a rant, Cole. I eat that shit up. I’m holding my and over my mouth so as not to wake my sleeping husband.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Please don’t ‘Kosify’ this place. I got sick of the assholes over there whose feefees were hurt based on their interpretation of what someone else said. Your shower in prison joke didn’t come across as a rape joke, end of story. Besides that, if we were to completely drop any reference to prison rape in conversation, will that change the fact that it happens? Or does that make the ultra sensitive people feel better because nobody will talk about it, even jokingly?
ProTip: It won’t go away if we don’t talk about it.
ulee
@LT: Prison rape is pretty horrible. Glad you understand this.
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@John Cole: Shorter Cole: “I didn’t say I love you. I said I love ewes. Get over yourself.”
I’mma gotta get myself a hanky. Best tears of joy ever.
Nate Dawg
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn:
Damn, I’m in LA and it’s past bedtime HERE!
Yes, socialist with South Park sense of humor. Must…keep…to…self.
But that’s what friends (And blogs) are for.
LT
@ulee: Saw this just today: “The Story of One Prison Rape, In an Inmate’s Own Words”
http://gawker.com/the-story-of-one-prison-rape-in-an-inmates-own-words-510475353
Nate Dawg
See in my house, prison rape humor comes in a different variety.
For instance, say the subject comes up, the common refrain is, “well, are the inmates hot, and do they have plenty of soap available?” Har har har.
Then back to talking about getting rid of death penalty, overcrowded prisons, skewed demographics in prison, victimless crimes, cycle of poverty, failed war on drugs, cruel and unusual punishment, etc. etc. etc……
We do keep the jokes out of the “polite” society that has created and perpetuated these horrible prison conditions.
Supporting a system that perpetuates prison rape = fine. Making a joke about it = evil.
Anne Laurie
@John Cole: Sorry, you are This Guy:
I aspire to be Chaotic Good, in my next lifetime if not this one. You just find the concept weirdly fascinating, because it’s so alien to you (much as I do lawful anythings). Chaotics don’t have “problems with authorities” — although they usually have problems with us — because half the time we can’t understand what they’re yammering about, and more than half the time we don’t care.
I once worked, in a very tightarse multinational office, as administrative assistant to an accountant. Shortly before leaving the department, she told me she had nightmares about me — not about stuff I’d actually done or said, but when she was contemplating something daringly non-accountant-ish, I’d show up in her dreams telling her that the only thing she had to fear was fear itself, apart from getting on the wrong side of the department’s Senior VP when he was obsessing over the kerning of the Times Roman font when a sentence ended in “r”.
(True story. This was the early 1990s, old people were still getting used to printers, & the tech dept spent weeks trying to satisfy SVP on that issue. I just re-arranged sentences so they never ended in “r”.)
NickT
@LT:
I saw that too. Horrible story. To be honest, I’ve seen more jokes than I wanted to about showers, prison, dropping the soap and so forth.
Anne Laurie
@John Cole: Stock some decaf, Lawful dude. Then when you want the flavor, you don’t have to worry about the aftereffects.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@eemom: HA!
Suzanne
@Nate Dawg: Yanno, there is some nuance there, and you’re deliberately mischaracterizing the argument. Making a prison rape joke isn’t EVIL, it’s just not the kindest thing ever and stopping would probably display more sensitivity to people who could use it. I really fail to understand how pointing this out merits this OH MY GOD I AM SICK OF THS PC BULLSHITTTTTTT kind of response.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Any of you going to Netroots Nation? A Baloon Juice Meet-Up would be pretty cool.
ETA: I live in the South Bay, so can take the train down there.
ulee
Anne Laurie. Cole is educating us and we are educating him. This is my favorite site because we are all learning together.(though I suspect Cole may be making things up lately) Try not to be so bitter. Cole is imperfect but so aren’t we all.
BillinGlendaleCA
@rda909: 127.0.0.1 is your friend.
agorabum
I think what we have here is…. COLE-GAHZI!!!1!1!
Cole knew about the soft core porn…he knew…
goblue72
Illegals, undocumenteds, aliens…They’re all Mexicans, right?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@goblue72: Some people seem to think so.
NickT
@goblue72:
Like Mitt Romney, in fact. Mind you, we still haven’t seen Cole’s birth certificate.
Joseph Nobles
@NickT: Yes, but Cole linked to a definition of Chaotic Good to make his point. Lawful action right up and down.
NickT
@Joseph Nobles:
No, no – a Lawful character would never willingly deceive someone about their core identity. It just means that Cole had a brief spasm of coherence.
Nicole
I’m just so grateful to all of you night owls for an incredibly entertaining thread keeping me awake while I’m stuck working.
Here. Now everyone can find out what alignment they are:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20001222b
Kris Collins
@srv: fuck off, asshole, I wasn’t talking to you
dewzke
/wandering in like a child in the middle of a movie… “Shut the fuck up, Donnie!”…(best I could do but wtf is going on?)
NickT
@dewzke:
Eemom started it!
Pinkamena Panic
@Nicole: Been there, done that. Almost always neutral good.
Retook it – yep, still NG.
scav
@Suzanne: Well, the harping on it is getting to the War on Christmas Stage for me personally. At this point, you do seem to be more worried about polishing your more truely sensitive in all perfection liberal badge than anything else. Some are truely sensative and offended when “Christ” is taken out of their holiday, everybody immediately knuckle down! Some men can handle uppity women, so shut up you XX! All language in all contexts necessarily to default to the least offensive to the most fragile or most vocally fragile. You made your point, but don’t expect universal applause or acceptance. Taken to extremes, it’s also silly.
BillinGlendaleCA
@scav: WTF!!! It’s War On Christmas time already? God, time sure does fly.
Marc
@Suzanne:
Most of us prefer not to have people read us in the least sympathetic way possible.
For example,I find the use of the word ‘misogynist’ pretentious. Claiming that someone hates all women for using thoughtless words, or words that can be twisted that way, is pretty offensive and insulting. But I’ll grant people the courtesy of assuming good intentions and not harp on it. It’s worth trying.
Anne Laurie
@Nicole: Chaotic Good! Obviously you guys are having a good influence on me…
Kris Collins
@Kris Collins: @Kris Collins: my guess though is that since you’re one of the old-timers here you think it’s amusing to be supercilious and rude to a newbie like me. Sorry, just makes you an obnoxious asshole.
Kris Collins
@Kris Collins: my guess though is that since you’re one of the old-timers here you think it’s amusing to be supercilious and rude to a newbie like me. Sorry, just makes you an obnoxious asshole.
NickT
@Kris Collins:
A double self-abusing meta post. Impressive!
Kris Collins
@NickT: trying to delete one. And what the fuck? Self-abusing meta post? What is with you people over here? I’ve been reading this blog for years just recently started comnenting very tentatively and it’s like jumping into a fucking shark tank.
moderateindy
@Suzanne:
This is the liberal equivalent of conservatives ginning up fake outrage. Sometimes an off-hand joke is just that. Or using a term that really isn’t meant to be anything other than descriptive, like illegal immigrant, is simply that. It is not meant to denigrate, and anyone with a half a brain should realize that. If it offends you, that is unfortunate, but ask yourself, was the writer, or speaker using the term in order to offend anyone? If not give it a pass. You really don’t need to scream about how offended you are. Too often such a complaint is more about your own self-righteous sense of superiority, than it is about real outrage. We have become a society that prides itself on screaming bloody murder about even the most innocuous of transgressions, and it is fairly tiring, It is also unproductive as such constant outrage can simply inure us to times when real outrage is needed. When your outrage meter is perpetually pinned at 11, how can you decipher the BS from the true transgressions that should be met with contempt? So quit acting like a bunch of little bitches every time someone says something that might possibly offend your delicate fee-fees. (and please cry about how using the word bitch is sexist, just too prove my point)
NickT
@Kris Collins:
Lighten up, Kris. You’ll find a sense of humor helps.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Kris Collins: If you’ve been reading this here blog for a while, then you know how much Cole LUVS emails from commenters complaining about how other commenters have offended them. Lighten up Francis.
Kris Collins
@NickT: yeah, well I’ll do my best to be amused next time some personal comment is funny.
Randy P
I’m in the UK and enjoying the sensation of reading an overnight thread while it is still happening instead of hours after you all have gone back to bed.
Still nothing pithy to add to the conversation though.
Hey, does anyone know what gammon is and why it’s not just called “ham”?
Kris Collins
@BillinGlendaleCA: I’m not offended by anybody, I’m not sending any emails to anybody, and who’s Francis?
sb
@Randy P: First time in ages I’ve seen an active thread at 1:45am PST.
God, insomnia sucks.
Kris Collins
@Randy P: Isn’t “gammon” some 18th century term that means something more or less equivalent to “bullshit?”
sb
@Kris Collins: Here you go.
Kris Collins
@sb: tell me about it.
Kris Collins
@sb: oh, that Francis. Not being a guy of a certain age, I wasn’t familiar, so thanks for the info. Very helpful.
Randy P
@Kris Collins: No, it’s a food item on many menus here. I googled it and it just sounds like ham steak.
Had black pudding for breakfast. Don’t google that one if you’re squeamish. I did, but enjoyed it anyway. I half suspected what “black” meant so I wasn’t totally surprised.
Thinking of trying some Cornish pasties today.
Kris Collins
@Randy P: Was in England years ago, we pretty much subsisted on fish and chips, but the meat pies we had were all great. Breakfast was always weird and never could get into the mushy peas thing.
sb
@Kris Collins: The line is from the movie was “Stripes” which was popular at the time because it was funny and it produced any number of one-liners that made into the culture. “Animal House” “Caddyshack” “Ghostbusters and others did the same thing. Hell, any number of movies over the years did the same thing. I’m a high school teacher, hitting 50 in June and if I use the line with colleagues who are familiar with the film (which was damn near everybody–it was popular), they’ll know what I mean.
I use it every now and again but with people who probably know the film. In other words, people around my age. :)
Jonathan
@maya: eAmericans?
sb
@Kris Collins: Crap. I could’ve save myself minutes of typing and thinking. :)
Have a good morning! I’m going to try to get some winks.
raven
@Kris Collins: Man you are a total dweeb aren’t you?
Off your ass
and on your feet
out of the shade
and into the heat. . . .motherfuckers it’s reveille
raven
@sb: We watched Price Check the other night an I thought this dude was Francis but he isn’t.
BillinGlendaleCA
@sb: You forgot Airplane!! in that list of movies. And don’t call me Shirley.
Bobby Thomson
@Bruce S:
Pretty much.
Jamey
I thought that’s what the BJ site categories were for…
Kris Collins
@raven: dweeb, perhaps, just somehow missed the whole Stripes thing. I was in law school at the time, so shoot me.
Jamey
@John: @John: And too much salt is unhealthy!
Kris Collins
@sb: sorry! My “tell me about it” was referring to insomnia, not Stripes.
raven
@Kris Collins: hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha
Did they teach you about video tape in law school?
raven
Oh, look, they have this youtubbey thing.
LIghten Up Francis.
If you put the little arrow right on the blue part and “click” it the movie will play!
Kris Collins
@raven: fuck off.
raven
@Kris Collins: Go to bed whiny little bitch.
Joseph Nobles
@NickT: But Cole is genuinely confused about being a Chaotic Good person. You can’t willfully deceive someone if you don’t know any better.
Being a Lawful alignment doesn’t mean you aren’t a source of chaos in the lives of yourself and those around you. It depends upon the particular code you rigorously enforce upon yourself and others. For example, Felix Unger is the stereotypical Lawful Good person. But he was just as contributory to the chaos in The Odd Couple as the classic Chaotic Good Oscar Madison. But how many pets did Oscar have? Would Oscar have ever been caught dead mopping? What frat house would Oscar have ever assumed sponsorship of, and had come out so well?
Anne Laurie’s got Cole dead to rights: he’s Lawful Good to his core. What is the original post rant about, after all?
A Chaotic alignment would be in the sweet spot. Because Cole’s Lawful, he’s in hell.
NickT
@Kris Collins:
I see that the dead chicken of passive-aggressiveness is being well and truly fucked. Where do you find the energy?
NickT
@Joseph Nobles:
No, no. Cole is a Chaotic Grumpy person who wants to be Lawful Good. Sadly, desire outruns performance.
Bill E Pilgrim
I object to your use of the phrase “shut the fuck up”, when you could have used “be the heck quiet”.
El Cid
What’d I miss?
dr. bloor
Balloon Juice: Come for the political commentary, stay for the relentless sadomasochistic bonding experience.
Jack the Second
The difference between “illegal alien” and random-slur-number-twenty-three is we can eliminate the concept through legislation. You can’t do that with race or gender or sexuality, and the concept is pretty horrific. By immigration? We could pass a law tomorrow which says “everyone who wants to be can be an American”. And then the concept of “illegal alien” goes away.
Calling someone an “escaped slave” may or may not have been hurtful, but the problem was having a fucking legal concept of escapes slaves not whatever euphemistic term we chose to slap on that turd. The problem here is having a law on the fucking books that being born wrong is a crime punishable by exile.
If it were up to me, people in shittier countries could declare themselves Americans, devoted to the American values of freedom, equality, and Monday night football, and we’d send Seals to rescue their asses, like they were rich assholes captured by Somali pirates.
Cassidy
So, if this is how you complimented the lady in the grocery store, she was definitely creeped out.
gnomedad
So you think posting awesome rants like this is going to persuade people to stop provoking you?
Just One More Canuck
Argle-bargle or foofarah?
cleek
to promote good health, i always recommend that idjits eat a bag of luke-warm unsalted tofu dicks. mmm. slimy.
cleek
@moderateindy:
a million times, this.
debbie
Words, words, words. Too much focus on words and not enough on deeds or actions. This is like Nero fiddling away while Rome burns.
muddy
Gammon (jambon) meaning ham, archaic slang term meaning BS. I assume this usage is similar to the 20th century American “baloney”.
Tyro
@Jack the Second: The problem here is having a law on the fucking books that being born wrong is a crime punishable by exile.
I’m pretty sure it is not a problem to have laws that regulate who can and can’t move to the USA and for how long, and associating that with slavery sounds pretty much like fucking bullshit.
Rex Everything
God this place is dumb.
chopper
@El Cid:
“miss”? that’s sexist.
chopper
@raven:
interesting fact: the movie ‘Stripes’ was only available for viewing to the public for a three-year period.
S. Holland
Don’t ever ever change John…you are loved! That’s why I love coming here!
S. Holland
Don’t ever ever change John…you are loved! That’s why some damn many of us come here!
chopper
i can’t believe people are making light of the Spanish Inquisition in this thread. do you people have any idea how horrible their actions were to my people? do you think genocide is fucking funny?
Shortstop
Times like this, we could really use that “libertarian” guy who used to ombuds this place so wisely. I’m not being cute; I’m having a middle-aged moment and can’t recall that asshole’s name.
Laur
@Jack the Second:
Haha yeah that’s a great idea.
Except not.
Tractarian
Epic rant.
different-church-lady
Oh you sweet naive — it’s like you’ve never been on the internets before!
Brian R.
@chopper:
Lighten up, Pope Francis.
YellowJournalism
Bummed that I missed a good Cole freak-out. Double-bummed that it included some trippy, Sarah-esque fantasy.
Trinity
I came for the pet pics. I stayed for the rants.
FSM love you John Cole!
Jack the Second
@Tyro:
I won’t deny that immigrants have it better than slaves. Sometimes it is illegal to kill an immigrant. But immigration laws are ultimately discriminating against people due to the uncontrollable circumstances of their birth. You can’t control where you were born or to whom. You can’t help being born gay or straight. You can’t choose to be born rich or poor, black or white. Laws predicated on someone’s birth are inherently evil.
@Laur:
I’d much rather our military run around the world shitting over other countries’ sovereignty rescuing people convicted of being gay or blasphemy than most of the reasons we do it now.
different-church-lady
@Bruce S: I looked up “symbiotic relationship” in the dictionary, and it had your exact comment as a sidebar example.
rikyrah
Dude,
I’m Black.
not black.
as long as you don’t put Colored, Negro or N***er when describing my people
you can interchange Black and African-American.
different-church-lady
@Jack the Second:
Uhh… not that I want to wander kneedeep into this sheep dip, but that’s why people who are born here are automatically citizens.
lojasmo
Damn it. I go to bed at a reasonable hour, and miss a righteous rant, and get beaten to the snarkpunch by….everybody.
I had a whole list of zingers and they were all used up at the top of the comment list.
Fuck.
different-church-lady
I DOUBLE DARE YOU MOTHERFUCKER, SAY ILLEGAL ALIEN ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME!
different-church-lady
@Blue Shark:
What if they’re homeless? Huh?
lojasmo
@Ted & Hellen:
Yes, but not just for the reason you mention.
different-church-lady
@Ted & Hellen:
No, you’re not a bad person.
You’re two horrible people.
Woodrowfan
someone needs a hug!
Nazgul35
You shouldn’t use the term “politically correct” anymore as it isn’t PC.
You should say “friendly utilitarian,” or FU.
Jon
Listen, shitlord, I don’t need your mansplaning about your privilege.
elftx
LOL people..I remember the days JC would link to Drudge…repeatedly as tho it meant something.
O and the French bashing…those smarty pants…good times!
ya’ll are true idjuts if you don’t have a clue and apparently a lot of you don’t
BGinCHI
I feel like I showed up at a party 3 hours late and everyone has gone home but the place is wrecked and there are blood and teeth on the carpet and I realize, yeah, glad I missed that.
Rex Everything
@different-church-lady: FTW.
Central Planning
Please don’t use the letter/word “I or i”. It looks like a penis, and that is repressive to women.
Tyro
@Jack the Second: immigration laws are ultimately discriminating against people due to the uncontrollable circumstances of their birth. … Laws predicated on someone’s birth are inherently evil.
You’re making an assertion that is not grounded in anything, unless you believe the concept of nation states and borders is inherently evil. Feel free to be against the concept of states and borders (plenty of people are!), but once you accept their reality, then you have to accept the concept of citizenship. And, yes, citizenship gets determined in many ways by the circumstances of your birth, but that’s awesome– it means you’re a citizen of someplace!*
*offer not valid for Palestinians.
kc
I miss all the fun.
Anyway: This prison-rape-joke-maker-shaming has got to stop, people.
BC57
I don’t always eat bags of dicks, but when I do, I prefer them salted.
lojasmo
@Kris Collins:
You called yourself an obnoxious asshole.
Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.)
I’m sure I’ll come in for my share of mocking, which is all right, but I wish everybody would just let Cole do his thing. Sure, sometimes he’ll be insensitive; sure, sometimes he’ll word things in a way that makes some of us cringe and that, I’m sure, he wishes he had worded otherwise. But, so what? Show me anybody, anybody who hasn’t. I bet Gandhi said things he could have kicked himself for as soon as the words left his mouth.
But he runs a great site, the first place I check into every day, before I look at my e-mail, even before I run by giganticasses.com. There are a lot of people who come by here regularly, and we can do that because he puts the time and work into it. I’m thankful for that. I think we all should be. Not that I want to come off like that whiny guy who put out that Britney Spears Youtube video a few years ago, but couldn’t we all just back off from slamming him over this or that turn of phrase a little?
This place has grown into a place that’s unlike anything I’ve ever come across before. People actually care about each other in a way that amazes me. When people need help with something or want something that’s puzzling to them answered or need some advice about something that’s tripping them up in life, they can come here. I’ve done it myself, more than once. If Cole ever makes his mind up that this is all to much bother to deal with, then we’ll all lose something. So let him be human. Let him screw up. Let him learn from his mistakes. Would any of us ask any less for ourselves?
By way of wrapping up here (for which everybody is no doubt thankful) I’d like to say that if this comes off in any way as condescending to Our Host, then all I can say is that I didn’t mean it that way. I know he can stand up for himself; it was just something I wanted to say.
Violet
Love this post. Cole, your rants are the best.
kc
Yeah. How about a trigger alert at least, for Christ’s sake.
BGinCHI
@Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.): Second this.
Hell, I celebrated the birth of my kid here with all of you jackals. And I actually have a lot of friends in meatspace.
If you’re going to have a clubhouse, you can’t do better than this place.
JGabriel
Just for the record, I googled the phrase there was porn broadcasting through my windows (because I was wondering where Cole posted about being an inadvertent porn broadcaster*), and there were only two links, both to Balloon Juice.
You wouldn’t think Balloon Juice was the only site indexed by Google, on the entire planet, that contained the phrase there was porn broadcasting through my windows, but there it is: Balloon Juice’s uniqueness in the in the world is once again confirmed. Or at least John Cole’s uniqueness is.
(* By the way, I didn’t find it. So if anyone else knows, please add the link?)
chopper
@Jon:
great, so men can’t even plan things anymore? you’re sexist.
chopper
@BGinCHI:
a jackal ate my baby, you insensitive clod!
The Moar You Know
@Amanda in the South Bay: You never were, you just thought you were so fucking special you ignored all the warning signs.
JGabriel
Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.):
Seconded. Quoted for truth.
cathyx
Sheesh, I missed all the fun last night. Unless everyone agrees with the whiners, then they won’t be happy. Let the unhappies leave if it’s too much for them.
different-church-lady
@cathyx:
You don’t understand the psychology of whiners one bit. Nothing makes a whiner more unhappy than when there’s nothing left to whine about.
Origuy
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Not going to NN, but I thought about a meet-up. while it’s on. I live in San Jose and know downtown pretty well. I was thinking about the Britannia Arms.
LAC
Jaysus, the problems of a white guy. Lets have a million man march, sponsored by Dockers. Really, you can’t manage your writing life because golly you are expected to elevate a conversation? Some people come here for information, not for your perpetual audition as head writer for “trailer park boyz”
Redshirt
Chicks dig me because I rarely wear underwear.
Jack the Second
@Tyro:
I will admit to being nation-state-skeptical, mainly because I have a hard time with moral relativity.
But the great thing about nation-states existing is that we, as a nation-state ourselves, don’t have to play by anyone else’s bullshit rules. While I’m mostly willing to let people live in whatever shitty little world they’ve built for themselves, but if someone trapped in that shitty little world stands up and says, “I’d rather live in America than put up with this bullshit”, I think we should let them. I think we can take in all of the tired, poor, wretches masses and feed them and clothe them and let them breathe free, and that doing so will make both America and the world better.
Just because you live where you’re born is a sane default doesn’t mean that we should have an impenetrable border. I live a thousand miles from where I was born, subject to different laws with different people with different customs, because I thought this place was cooler and had better opportunities than the place I was born. I didn’t ask anyone if I could move here. I hopped on a train, bummed around for a few months, found a job and a home. Within a few months I was voting here, in local elections! I just had to tell them in advance that I live here now and to expect me; there wasn’t even an option to deny me the right to vote. Why shouldn’t everyone have that opportunity?
And if other countries have a problem with us stealing their native-born citizens, fuck them, because we’re fucking America.
Tyro
@Jack the Second: And if other countries have a problem with us stealing their native-born citizens, fuck them, because we’re fucking America.
I don’t have a problem with that, but the point is that we get to choose whom we want to steal for ourselves.
Anna in PDX
@The prophet Nostradumbass: I think it would look like the fight scene in the Quiet Man.
gogol's wife
@Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.):
Very nice.
Steeplejack
@JGabriel:
It’s the post immediately before this one.
JR in WV
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
He should know that the indentured characterization refers to H1B holders because they can’t quit their job without having to return to their nation of origination. Go home. They can’t leave one company for another job or contract and remain in the US legally.
They aren’t servants, because most of them do high-tech work that’s difficult and reasonably well paid. They aren’t slaves, ’cause they can quit and go tion refers to the fact that H1Bhome. IIRC most of them have open return tickets home if they need to bail.
But indentured? I think the word fits technically and literally.
RobinDC
You know Cole, there is such a thing as going too far to the left. A few years ago a pussified patrol of PCtards whining to you about the word illegal xxx wouldn’t have made you even raise your brow, you would have told them to fuck off and stop being such annoying PC little bitches.
Look at you now. Ranting and raving about something this stupid? What happened to you man, your turning more and more into a bitch year after year.
Suzanne
@moderateindy:
Like when that Republican state congressman used the n-word, I should just accept that they said they meant no ill will and it’s okay?
Look, some people are more sensitive to offense than others, and while I generally think that letting stuff roll off your back is better for your blood pressure, it’s not out of line to take it more seriously. It’s also really not a white person’s place to tell a Black person what is offensive, or for a dude to tell a woman what is sexist. Etc. It is the responsibility of members of a dominant social group to listen to the concerns of the marginalized group. Getting upset about having to do that is a serious dick move.
This is how it really should roll: someone says something unintentionally rude, other person kindly indicates why that term/joke could be offensive, first person asks in a genuine spirit of inquiry how to better make their point and actually listens and avoids saying that in the future. Honestly, do you all feel that personal growth is really too much to expect?
eemom
This thread is effing EPIC. Hey y’all — let’s keep it going….make it meaner and meaner with each comment…c’mon, we can DO this!
Fred Fnord
John, I say this with loving kindness, and without malice or hatred of any kind: you need to take a little vacation from reading the comments. Maybe a permanent one.
They’re fucking internet comments. Imagine, people disagreeing with one another! Imagine, you have a term that is highly emotionally charged (‘illegal aliens’) and different people disagree with what the correct term should be! I can’t imagine why that would be. It’s almost like there are DIFFERENT PEOPLE commenting here, who have DIFFERENT OPINIONS! And some of them even disagree with YOU! I know, I know, it’s inconceivable.
As for ‘prison showers’ cracks, they are rape jokes. You know it, and pretending it’s not true is just disingenuous. If you’re comfortable with yourself making such jokes, fine. But if you’re not comfortable with people pointing them out, then don’t read the fucking comments!
If you are going to read the comments, you’re either going to have to stop saying things that are quite so offensive to your audience or you’re just going to have to be more like this guy here:
(Which is to say, ‘HA HA HA, BECAUSE WOMEN ARE ALL OVERSENSITIVE AND MEN WHO ARE LIKE THAT ARE LIKE WOMEN AND BEING LIKE A WOMAN IS BAD AMIRITE! OH, AND I DON’T KNOW BASIC GRAMMAR!’) You just know that he won’t be pretending to give a shit what people say about him.
gogol's wife
@Yatsuno:
Way too late to reply, but if you don’t know if that’s a thing yet, you don’t teach at my school.
Kris Collins
@lojasmo: I know what it meant, I’m not an idiot, but if you followed the link back to what I was actually talking about it was clear I was calling srv an obnoxious asshole. And aren’t you a bit late to be adding to the stream of irrelevant nastiness or is that just how you roll?
Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.)
@Fred Fnord:
Well, I don’t know. I think there’s another choice, which is that we who come here back off a little. You know, I’ve always believed that thankfulness is highly underrated. I don’t know how much time and money he’s put into this, but it’s a big damned hunk. When my dog died, there was a front page story in her honor with pictures, and everybody wrote wonderful things that helped a lot. When my tiniest daughter was born last summer, I sent in pictures, and there was a front page story about that, too. Show me another site where the people who run it do that for regular commenters. Maybe there are some, but I don’t know about them.
So, anyway, my humble plea is for us to be thankful for what we have here, which is, to my addled mind, pretty damned amazing. Bitching and moaning because it isn’t 3.87% more awesomely amazing!!!1!!one!! seems kind of thankless.
Is John Cole going to be an ass sometimes? Yep. I’m a pretty nice guy (that may be the only big thing I have going for me), but I’m an ass, too, sometimes. Everybody is. So let him be an ass once in a while, and don’t jump all over him. It’s one thing to calmly point things out, but getting overwrought won’t do much but make him feel unappreciated. I’m not saying we need to break out the kid gloves, but maybe we could back off a bit.
Tyro
@Suzanne: This is how it really should roll: someone says something unintentionally rude, other person kindly indicates why that term/joke could be offensive, first person asks in a genuine spirit of inquiry how to better make their point and actually listens and avoids saying that in the future.
That is not necessarily how it works. It is perfectly reasonable for the first person to hear the second person’s concerns and decide that the second person is in the wrong and that his objections, while sincere, are not valid.
different-church-lady
@eemom: Leading by example, I see.
nancydarling
Well, I’m glad we’ve gotten all this PC stuff settled. Didn’t read most of the thread, but I still love ya, Cole.
Suzanne
@Tyro: sure, but there’s a difference between “not valid” because that person is dramatically out of alignment with prevailing community standards, and “not valid” because you just can’t be bothered to change a habit or because you think rape jokes are hilarious and you don’t really care if rape victims are offended. For all the “it’s just words!” protestations, I think we all know that there are certain words that convey extraordinary hate and are loaded with pain for people. Asking Cole to use different terminology is an attempt to shift the community standard. I hardly think that merits a meltdown.
Heliopause
Hypertension runs in my family, I don’t find this very funny.
Penises run in my family, so your use of a pejorative here offends me.
Ruckus
@Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.):
This is why I like coming here. It is a clubhouse but it is not exclusive. Anyone can join, very few are rejected and only after they show themselves to be complete assholes and on many occasions. Although there is a means to block out the more offensive ones and I get to decide who those are for me, I don’t have to have the same likes/dislikes as someone else.
It’s a nice place(most of the time) and informative and just plain fun. There is ribbing when someone shows their humanity and deserves it. There is understanding and hugs when someone deserves that. We’d all be so lucky to have a physical clubhouse like that, we are so lucky to have a virtual one.
Paula
Not that I wish for this site to go down in flames or anything, but I definitely wouldn’t see it as a giant tragedy if Cole were to lose a chunk of his commenters.
A lot of the cool ones have stopped coming around regularly after the Health care debate debacle in 2009. Maybe they’d come back if the site returned to being a semi-obscure hangout blog.
JR in WV
What a Long Strange Trip It’s Been !!
moderateindy
@Suzanne:
Jeebus Christ false equivalency much? Do you really think that Cole was intending to be hurtful? If so you really aren’t worth having a discussion with. Why not go with the full on Hitler comparison? For FSM sake try to be a little discerning and not just knee jerk reactionary. An off-handed joke about the dangers of taking a shower in prison is just like using the most blatantly racist ter of the last 50 years. Context matters as much as content. And not being able to tell the difference simply makes you a dumb bitch. (see that would be a sexist remark that would deserve a reaction)
Moe Gamble
Amen, John.
Thank you especially for swearing.
More news on Tunch and Lily and Rosie would be appreciated.
Moe Gamble
@Fred Fnord: Here’s a fact: A rape joke can be funny.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yeah John, it’s the rest of the world that’s all fucked up.
phil
John, you’re trying to reason with folks who have enough free time on their hands to read & comment on this blog…that should be the 1st clue to how successful you will be.
How about a new comment policy…
via The Big Picture
chopper
@Suzanne:
exactly! it’s just like when that republican used the word ‘nigger’. totally, just like that in every way.
Suzanne
@moderateindy: no, I don’t think Cole was intending to be hurtful. But plenty of people use offensive terms when they don’t actually intend offense. Former Governor of my state got in a rash of shit for calling Black children “pickaninnies”. He said he didn’t MEAN to be offensive, and he was probably telling the truth—he was an old guy and community standards changed. Our Republican congressman friend grew up in a time when the n-word was thrown around casually and he probably didn’t intend for anyone to take offense to what he said. That doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t learn not to do that. Intent doesn’t completely excuse offensive behavior.
dance around in your bones
I read this post and a couple hundred comments last night, but I just couldn’t be arsed to comment. I often imagine Cole with a chain around his ankle, dragging a laptop full of a chattering cacophony of commenters and pity him somewhat, while being ever so grateful that he is here and providing the space for us to be assholes or empathetics, sappy or drunk or indignant, witty and erudite or foolish and pedantic. Also funny as hell – I frequently am holding my sides w/tears streaming down my face at some of the comments.
It’s a special place. Thanks, Cole (not sucking up).
eemom
@dance around in your bones:
I hereby pronounce you Winner Of The Thread for that glorious image. (Not that it’s much of a PRIZE, of course, but plz to count the proverbial thought.)
dance around in your bones
@eemom: I was modestly imagining it as a rotating tagline :) Thanks.
Nancy
All of this is making me glad I don’t read the comments.
Ruckus
@eemom:
Second the award. And yes it has limited value. Like the old coupons or green stamps that had to be worth something for some reason but had a listed value, if I remember correctly of one hundredth of a cent and yet couldn’t be exchanged for cash.
machine
Now I feel the need to photochop Cole’s head onto the movie poster for “Falling Down”.
Ted & Hellen
@dance around in your bones:
Why did you write this clearly untruthful sentence?
Do you REALLY frequently hold your sides with tears streaming down your face while reading comments here?
Liar.
dance around in your bones
@Ruckus: Hey, thanks for the prize, guys!
My mom used to make me fill up the Green Stamp books (I secretly got a thrill out of it), and every now and then we would take them in for a cheap toaster or something. Months and months of saving the darn things for a cheap toaster, which is prolly more than I will get out of this award :)
Nazgul35
I am frankly offended and appalled at the awarding of prizes in this thread.
I think that the culture of competition is dragging our society down and as good liberals we should avoid the awarding of places or prizes. It’s the right that competes!!!!!
We should get away from the knuckle dragging sports culture and everyone who posted in this diary should be given certificates of participation and an award for excellence that should be displayed next to our names when we post.
Wilson Heath
What is it with putting salt on everything? Stupid trend. Salted caramel; salted chocolate; salted chocolate covered caramels. Tastes like ass to me. And dicks are already taint adjacent so how is the salt gonna make them taste less like ass?
Or is the problem that it wasn’t pink Himalayan on the salted chocolate caramels I’ve sampled?
Denali
Whew, this thread has been quite the ride. I think enough has been said on the topic of general offensivenes, but perhaps the subject has no limits.
That’s all,folks.