Yesterday the first lady of the United States, Michelle Obama spoke at a democratic party fundraiser in a private residence in Washington. During her speech about creating opportunities for our nation’s youth a woman began shouting from the audience.
Heckler, Ellen Sturtz was ejected from the fundraiser after Obama told her directly: “One of the things that I don’t do well is this,” according to attendees she continued “Listen to me or you can take the mic, but I’m leaving. You all decide. You have one choice.”
Curiously this event in many media spaces is being used to show evidence of Michelle Obama’s innate aggressive nature. Many articles quote Sturtz, part of the gay rights group GetEQUAL, saying “She came right down in my face, I was taken aback.”
I suspect Sturtz never thought that interrupting someone might result in that person responding to her. She’s dumbfounded. It’s not like this was an accomplished woman who was invited to speak at am event and was interrupted and demanding to be shown respect. No, this is Michelle Obama: angry irrational Black woman. This stance is blind to the long history of Black women having no choice but to project submission and subservience to any and all white people. But look! CodePink had some advice on how to handle things!
Mrs. Obama should have said to LGBT protester: I don’t make policy but I certainly understand your concerns. Thanks for sharing them w me.
— CODEPINK (@codepink) June 5, 2013
Oh that’s reasonable. Thanks CodePink for explaining how 49-year-old adult should respond to being disrespected. Could you give lessons to like all women? Especially women of color. Sometime’s there a bit feisty and don’t know how to settle down. **BLINK**
Today on #TWiBRadio, we discuss Michelle Obama and respect and did you know that Kevin Powell, yes the dude from the Real World, can speak for Black people? All of them.
Subscribe on iTunes | Subscribe On Stitcher | Direct Download | RSS
And this morning on #amTWiB, #TheMorningCrew we cover the all male subcommittee voting to restrict abortions nationwide, Michelle Obama not taking your crap, and George Zimmerman applying to be a cop and naturally failing.
Subscribe on iTunes | Subscribe On Stitcher | Direct Download| RSS
Corner Stone
And I think you’re fucking lying. Other reports indicate the “heckler” said, “fine, give me the mic then”.
This is a bullshit, nonsense story you squee humps are trying to sell.
Just move on.
magurakurin
@Corner Stone:
that may well be true, but I think Mrs. Obama was asking the crowd who they wanted to speak not whether or not the heckler wanted to speak. That the heckler wanted the mic seems to be a forgone conclusion. But the FLOTUS said, you all have to decide, meaning the crowd not just the heckler.
People have the right to be an asshole, no question. But others have the right to respond, and if the response is less than cheery, well…too fucking bad.
Lolis
I love how Michelle Obama handled this. I’m not surprised the usual suspects are trying to act like she did something wrong.
scott
I don’t blame either of them. Protesters heckle and disrupt. If you’re heckled then it’s fair not to like it and to say so. God bless America!
Marc
Christ, what a line. The heckler was “taken aback” because the person she heckled was rude to her. The nerve of some people!
I was shocked to learn that this woman is a baby boomer and a member of Code Pink.
belieber
^^^What post #1 said^^^
This was a private residence so how did that turd get invited anyways?
I don’t think I am going to be able to handle the idotic hand wringing and mountains of bullshit that the right with make out of this, intent on talking about anything but the improving economy and balance sheet.
Corner Stone
@magurakurin: I don’t have a problem in any direction with this event. My issue is with those that affirmatively say this should not be allowed in the US because of some abstruse reasoning.
FLOTUS made an appearance, an individual paid to attend and disrupted events.
This doesn’t seem to me to be that big of a deal.
Powerful, recognizable person speaks, less powerful person objects.
Let’s not make this into anything it isn’t.
Mnemosyne
I’m still giggling that the heckler was shocked and upset that the crowd didn’t vote for her over Mrs. Obama, the person they had each paid a few thousand dollars to hear speak. It’s like she lost Heckler Idol after Simon dissed her.
ruemara
I was about to say in b4 someone shows up to say you’re mis-stating, overstating and it’s no big deal. Damn, too late. Also, you know who was the real heckler? The uppity one who got in an innocent woman’s face and threatened her with offering her the mic.
Edited to reflect on the fact that CODEPINK and said heckler have the same grasp on the Authoriteh commanded by a FLOTUS.
Ronnie Pudding
What would the responsive be if Chris Christie talked back to a heckler this way?
Corner Stone
@ruemara: Yes, we’re familiar with your compunction to blanket protect the most powerful people on the planet.
Thanks!
scuffletuffle
The First Lady has my respect…any response from me would have involved repeated f-bombs and spittle.
Bobby Thomson
Michelle is young enough to remember how to deal with very young children.
Ronnie P
@ruemara: @ruemara:
Uppity?
Suffern ACE
So about ENDA…anyone want to talk about ENDA? Can the president really just make contractors adopt non-discrimination policies?
ruemara
@Corner Stone: You certainly do squeal a lot about things that have no real bearing on your life. I’m glad I can help you find one more thing.
lamh35
@ruemara: no surprise from that poster. he/she’s an ass and I thank Allah for the pie filter on BJ. The last time I posted directly to him/her I told ’em go fuck himself and have been forever happy to never read a word of it’s crap again
Anyway, I’ve read elsewhere that there were actually more than 2 hecklers and that GETEQUAL actually paid for the heckler plant. So she was there to disrupt…so her being “taken aback” is just cause she expected to be coddled rather than confronted, since it was a fundraiser at a lesbian couples home. That is also why she was “unsettled” by the audience response.
magurakurin
@Corner Stone:
If you got that meaning out of Elon James White’s post, then your close reading skills are way above mine.
Cassidy
@Corner Stone: Yup, nonsense. Only a black woman was disrespected. Nothing to see here. Why don’t you give us another Texas sized helping of whitesplaining!
ETA: and back to the pie filter. Your ignorant, bigoted ass ain’t worth the time or effort.
Baud
@Suffern ACE:
Quick googling suggests it’s possible, but I seem to recall a similar executive order being thrown out. Will keep looking since I’m curious.
japa21
@Suffern ACE: For Federal contracts, yes, but not on a permanent basis. Obama tends to believe it is important for these things to come through Congress so that they are law, not edict. Can’t be overturned on a whim by the next President or another down the line.
matt
LOL, so the only appropriate response to being heckled is to be polite and deferential. thanks code pink.
Cassidy
@ruemara: He only squeals when good white people are victimized by them uppity folk in the White House.
aimai
Jesus christ–where is it written that at a paid event, be it concert or fund raiser, that any asshole gets to interrupt the talent? I love Michelle Obama and I love, love, love her basically bracing the crowd and saying “Me or her? You choose.” That is such a MOM thing to do. As someone said upthread its how you deal with children and, frankly, with people on the PTA who decide they are going to criticize without having the faintest intention of doing the fucking work. At a certain point in time you just put your feet down and say “Look, this is the thing we are doing now. When you are running the party/class/dinner/event then you get to organize it the way you want.”
I love her, and I love her for this.
LAC
@Corner Stone: blah blah. … Thanks for your “man of the people” bullshit. Mouthy wanted to shout. Mouthy got called out. Mouthy got checked. Good for the First Lady. What a surprise you attach your lips to the ass of yet another group of emo pouters.
dewzke
I had no idea that corner stone was such an obtuse fucko!
Corner Stone
@ruemara: It’s amusing to me because I “squealed” just as heartily when Bush was fucking the people from not having a voice in the public discourse.
But yes, because you’re black, the FLOTUS is black, lamh is black then somehow I didn’t give a shit for 8 years in the 2000’s.
It’s amazing! I’m a racist now for saying the same things I’ve been saying for 10+ years!
LAC
@Corner Stone: blah blah. … Thanks for your “man of the people” bullshit. Mouthy wanted to shout. Mouthy got called out. Mouthy got checked. Good for the First Lady. What a surprise you your lips to the ass of yet another group of emo pouters.
Corner Stone
It’s sad, but not unexpected here.
TR
Code Pink is rapidly passing PETA on the list of groups whose ends I would normally support if their means weren’t so fucking retarded.
Shut up, asshats. You’re not helping.
Corner Stone
@magurakurin: This is the fourth or fifth thread/comment chain on this. It’s been cumulative.
TR
@ruemara:
I think it’s adorable that Corner Stone thinks anyone here gives a flying fuck what he thinks.
Stamp your feet harder, baby.
dewzke
you are really messed up. I don’t get your position! She was in the middle of talking and someone interrupts like an ass and you defend the jerk?
TR
@Corner Stone:
And yet you keep coming back.
Leave. You won’t be missed.
Corner Stone
@lamh35:
“She” gave an interview stating she had not arrived with a plan to disrupt. And had given $5000 to the Obama campaign.
But your narrative plays a lot better here.
LAC
@Corner Stone: what? Your presence here? Yeah, that is sad.
Corner Stone
@dewzke: My position is I don’t have a problem with people with no power addressing the most powerful people in the world.
This isn’t the worst thing in the world. Sorry no one here seems to get that.
aimai
Are you guys stuck replying to CS? Just pie him. Life will be all the sweeter.
shortstop
The sight of Codepink lecturing someone on how to moderate her expression of ideas is too hilarious for words.
ruemara
@Corner Stone: No, that’s not why people think you’re racist. But it could be that you’re expressly saying that the feelings we have with regard to this and other incidents are based on some sort of racial solidarity that overlooks your concerns with the administration. And that you’re demeaning while disagreeing, often while completely fabricating statements that were not said by posters or commentors. Kinda sucks that you’re annoyed at being viewed as racist, while you view minority members as only feeling racial solidarity/sucking up to power because they’re our people/ridiculing the idea that there is a very large component of racial bias and hatred in a hell of a lot of sectors.
I’m quite sure there are people who agree with you and I say you have a right to say whatever. But, when it comes to this, not one person is “standing up for the powerful”. They’re mocking the stupidity of heckling the FLOTUS for an executive order and the lack of any sort of respect where you wait for the open question session that is usually held, to make the point that you’d like to see the FLOTUS push her husband on the issue of ENDA. Not that you give a fuck, because if we’re not joining you in being ok with this, then we’re the enemy, right?
dewzke
Is this a fun game for csi moron? wtf is he/she here for?
Corner Stone
Man, I hope my ’80s style yoga socks can protect me from all the vicious ankle biters coming out of the woodwork.
Yikes. What will I do with all the Lil Cujo’s?
David Koch
Obama just can’t keep his hands off other women.
Pure sexism.
dewzke
Be a better person.
gvg
It was code pink. this liberal has been tuning them out for years now and I my observations are other people are even less patient than I am. I didn’t even bother this time or the last 10 times to TRY to understand what code pink thought it was doing but just automatically tuned them out. I sincerely doubt any right winger pundit will get anywhere even in their closed circle trying to make code pink the victim.
Anyone who actually cares about some cause would do well to avoid getting CP support. With friends like that, who needs enemies.
Jeremy
The position of the First lady is not a political position. This gay rights group planned this out beforehand. If they wanted to address the white house about policy they could have contacted the white house or placed a petition on the white house site which would garner a response.
Some of these gay rights groups wouldn’t dare challenge the Clinton’s, and GLAAD gave Clinton an award though he did more than any president to restrict their rights. They challenge the president who has done so much for gay rights but don’t have anything to say to republicans or Bill Clinton.
Corner Stone
@ruemara:
When? Quote when this happened or retract it.
Comrade Mary
@Corner Stone:
I’m curious about that interview. Do you have a link? (Really, honestly curious.)
This speech was about children, not gay rights, so I guess that if the woman wasn’t there with a plan to disrupt, she was there because she was interested in the issue and wanted to support people working in this area. Terrific!
But what happened to suddenly inspire her to call out to Michelle Obama and attempt to engage her / criticize her husband about an entirely different issue? Is there some context I’m missing?
Citizen_X
@Corner Stone:
About what? WTF is this about?
CaseyL
I thought FLOTUS’ response was terrific. She didn’t belittle the heckler or condescend to the audience, and made it very clear that actions have consequences. The people weren’t there to hear some idiot trot out a pet issue; they were there to hear the First Lady. I’d’ve been infuriated – whether I was the speaker or a member of the audience – and not been able to respond nearly as well.
The usual suspects’ whining is… the usual suspects’ whining. White noise, if you’ll pardon the expression: not worth paying attention to.
Cassidy
@ruemara: The thing is, CS goes out of his way to defend any kind of disrespect given to the The President and First lady. There is nothing so low he won’t defend. It only happens to be done by white people, of course.
Just Some Fuckhead
Not sure why audience members feel like they have a right to ruin everyone else’s good time. Where else do we put up with this shit, other than graduations and Philly games?
Corner Stone
@ruemara: This is where the difference lies. I’m fine with disruptive speech and actions against the most powerful people on the planet. I’ve been agreeing with those actions, even when I hated the actors behind them, for some decades now.
I don’t care who’s in the WH.
Chyron HR
@Corner Stone:
@Corner Stone:
I like how it literally took three minutes for your “I’m too cool to care what you say” facade to crumble, revealing a sad little man demanding that the mean internet peoples retract their vicious slander.
Jeremy
@ruemara: Well the first family have been disrespected by many unlike any previous first family. The media, emo left and the wing nuts on the right have attacked them since day one.
The problem I have is the lack of respect. I don’t mind having disagreements with the white house because that’s normal and I don’t always agree with everything the president does. But the lack of respect has really pissed of black people and minorities in general. TPM had responses after the 2012 election from non black minorities talking about the racism and disrespect this family has received.
Suffern ACE
@Just Some Fuckhead: until a few years ago, the good times at the phillies games tended to be interrupted by the team far more often than the fans. It was common practice for security to escort the team off the field so that the fans could continue their revelry without interruption.
Cassidy
@Chyron HR: It also doesn’t help that he couldn’t manage to disagree in a civil manner with Elon. I know he’s capable of it; he disagreed with something I said yesterday in a very thoughtful manner, thought provoking response. But right out the gate…
lojasmo
@Corner Stone:
Sure, the heckler wanted the mic, but the host said “fuck no, get out” and the crowd agreed.
Michelle said “you all decide” not “it’s up to this rude motherfucker”
Thanks for your concern. It is duly noted.
“People have the right to be an asshole, no question. But others have the right to respond, ”
Indeed.
Spaghetti Lee
(Meekly sidles in) Is it…possible that people here are overreacting a little, just a little? I mean, people get heckled. It happens. Sometimes they don’t deserve it. Some people here are acting like the heckler should have been glad to just be in Obama’s presence, and honestly I don’t think that’s a healthy way to think of authority figures in a democratic society (yes, I know that the position of FLOTUS is not ‘political’, but it’s not like Obama’s just some random person either). I don’t think the heckler is really a brave, noble, freedom fighter. She did kind of make an ass of herself, but, well, freedom of protest is there for morons, too.
And the idea that it’s mostly because Obama is black and the white protestor wouldn’t do this to a white speaker, well, Code Pink people have done just that. They’ve been doing this for years. They’ve heckled Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, John McCain, David Petraeus, and that’s just from a quick wiki scan. I mean, yeah, maybe you think they’re ineffectual in general and embarrassing, but…in absence of evidence, can we hold off on automatically assuming it’s racist? Isn’t that kind of playing into the hands of right-wingers who say they’re not allowed to criticize the Obamas without being called racist (and many of them actually are demonstrably racist). Keep your powder dry, pick your battles, all that. Just my thoughts.
Mnemosyne
@lamh35:
That’s why I find her sadness so hilarious — she actually thought the people there would be more interested in hearing from her than in hearing from one of the most popular First Ladies of all time. Derp!
Jeremy
@Comrade Mary: The woman was lying. She did have a plan to disrupt because the gay rights group she belongs to heckled Debbie Wassermann Schultz. The woman is trying to play the victim.
Corner Stone
@Spaghetti Lee: I hope you brought plenty of lube for the spit you’re about to be run through on.
lojasmo
@ruemara:
He’s looking to find an NAACP, but for white guys.
Mnemosyne
@Spaghetti Lee:
As far as I can tell, the general sentiment isn’t that people think a white protestor wouldn’t do this to a white speaker, but that a white protestor wouldn’t be going to the press saying she was “shocked” when a white speaker asked her to be quiet.
There is a certain sniff of privilege around this woman, but I can’t say for sure if it’s because she was among “her people” (ie GLBT) and thought they would stand up for her against FLOTUS, or if it’s a racial thing. Could be a little bit of Column A, little bit of Column B.
Or, she just could have been reading Firedoglake so long that she mistook it for reality.
David Koch
Michell Obama is clearly uppity and a virulent homophobe. How dare she interrupt a heckler exercising her constitutional rights. I’m surprised she didn’t drop a “Whitey” on her, call in a Drone strike, and send her to guantanamo.
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: Part of it is the rudeness factor. People paid quite a bit of money to be there and that outburst really showed the lack of awareness of the emo left. And whole it may not have been overtly bigoted, there sure are a lot of people who don’t think twice about blatantly disrespecting the Potus and First Lady.
This doesn’t even touch the stupidity of disrespecting the people who have actually done something to advance your cause.
The other thing is CS’s misogyny and bigotry. Again, not overt and conscious, but he sure doesn’t mind really belittling people of color and women.
lojasmo
@aimai:
Alas, no pie filter in iOS
LAC
@Corner Stone: shove them up your ass, with the rest of the garbage you spew.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cassidy: In CS’s defense, he really doesn’t mind belittling anyone.
Just Some Fuckhead
Don’t even get me started about black folks in the movie theater.
ChrisNYC
I think the “OMG ENDA” thing is bull.
There’s this whole story line about evil Obama tricked all the gay people in 2012 to get all that money. Well, there was a candidate questionnaire in 08 where Obama said he would support a written policy of anti-discrimination in the fed govt and as to contractors. Spring 2012 the White House wouldn’t commit to doing so, hint hint, before the election. Since then WH says, “We want to do it like DADT.” Fine he MAYBE broke the 08 promise if a “formal written policy” means an EO only. But there was no trickery around an ENDA order in 2012, that I can see.
And in the spring 2012 posts, it’s marriage equality and ENDA as the two issues where Obama slapped gay people under the bus. Well, we know how that evolved. So, I think the ENDA thing is being sold as a terrible betrayal when it’s not so much that. Thoroughly not surprising.
Jeremy
@Spaghetti Lee: I don’t think anyone is playing into the right wing framing. There has been racism against this First Family. When a gay rights group like GLAAD gives Bill Clinton (mr. DOMA) an award for Gay rights and Obama receives no credit though he has been the most pro gay rights person in the white house then something is wrong.
I have noticed the lack of respect from all quarters to this family and I’m not alone. People need to stop pretending that this country is post racial because it isn’t.
Not every attack against the Obama’s is racial but you have to be in denial or a liar to say there hasn’t been a lot of racism over the past 4 1/2 years.
boss bitch
@Corner Stone LOL!! still on the same I’m Better Than All Of You asshole routine, eh?
boss bitch
@Corner Stone LOL!! still on the same I’m Better Than All Of You asshole routine, eh?
Felanius Kootea
@Corner Stone: Nice respectful response that’s sure to win you accolades. I mean who doesn’t like being called a fucking liar and having their concerns dismissed out of hand?
There’s no similarity between your response and Spaghetti Lee’s but you already knew that didn’t you?
muddy
@Comrade Mary: Facetime troll.
Spaghetti Lee
@Mnemosyne:
but that a white protestor wouldn’t be going to the press saying she was “shocked” when a white speaker asked her to be quiet…Or, she just could have been reading Firedoglake so long that she mistook it for reality.
Maybe. I’m not saying race was definitively NOT a factor, because that’s impossible to prove. I just think it’s kind of odd that people see the protester is old and white and assume, yep, this is a race thing. There are lots of older white people who voted for Obama: you can’t just look at someone from that demographic and assume it’s primarily racial privilege or arrogance.
It seems that people on the edges of political bell curves in general have a hard time dealing with the fact that most people don’t speak their language. It’s something I try to avoid falling victim to, myself.
Anya
So, this happened in 2010:
Funny, I’ve never heard about GetEqual heckling Ken Cuccinelli. Also, too, John Boehner and company are spending millions of dollars defending DOMA. Did I miss GetEqual heckling him?
And Elon, CodePink sent a more offensive tweet than the one you show above. Check this gem out:
Calouste
@Ronnie Pudding:
If Chris Christie replied to the heckler like Michelle Obama did, people would say he’s getting soft, losing his touch.
eemom
Keith G had some good observations about this on the earlier thread….in case anyone is interested in a reasonable difference of opinion from someone other than the biggest asshole on the blog.
David Koch
@Spaghetti Lee:
Why didn’t these big-mouths ever buy a ticket to a bush fundraiser and denounce Laura or Shrub, especially in 2004 when they spent the entire year demonizing gays?
Mnemosyne
@Spaghetti Lee:
As a white person who was born and raised in the United States my entire life (almost 44 years), let me put it this way: it’s a one-in-a-billion chance that there is no racial overtone to a white woman choosing to heckle a famous black woman. I try very, very hard to be as unbiased as possible, and yet I catch myself thinking or acting that way at least once every day.
Racial bias, you’re soaking in it. Does water cease to exist because the fish doesn’t realize what he’s swimming in?
Paula
@Spaghetti Lee:
Well, speaking for myself, I’m all too willing to laugh at people who appear to think they know how to deal with politics but can’t get a basic read on appropriate venues or methods to do so.
I mean, in my most uncharitable read (which is probably accurate) both Obamas are masters of the fake polite/backhanded/passive aggressive responses to their critics. There’s a reason why even Beltway reporters who abide by Fox News talking points still write about them like they’re the only adults in the room. It’s because they can turn situations like this into PR gold. I mean, did this heckler actually think that Michelle Obama wasn’t going to have some kind of trick to turn the situation around?
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom: I wouldn’t characterize Elon that way.
Suffern ACE
Honestly, I don’t think either party crossed any lines here that would be noteworthy. I found the first lady’s reaction a bit out of character for her, to be honest, but that doesn’t mean out of line. Her reaction was well within bounds of acceptable behavior for someone giving a speech that was interrupted.
The protester was hardly rude other than the interrupting part. I have no idea at what point of the speech she chose to interrupt. But it sounds like the speech was a general “we’ve done so much, now help us next year” kind of thing. Like it or not, there are activists who don’t think Obama has done enough on fillintheblank. It could have been any number of fillintheblank issues. But it’s not like this activist, say, chose a speech on helping tornado victims to talk about her issue.
its not like a shaving cream pie and a comment on her weight kind of activism going on here.
Baud
@Anya:
That is worse.
Southern Beale
Hubs and I were talking about this tonite. We kinda agreed the heckler came off looking like an asshole. Look, we all are sympathetic to the cause, but this administration has done more for GLBT rights than any that I can remember. Yes, there could be more. But “there could be more” is the theme song of my life. So, maybe heckle someone who’s really putting up roadblocks to equality, like some of these Republican assholes?
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
This doesn’t even touch the stupidity of disrespecting the people who have actually done something to advance your cause.
I agree with that. I don’t understand people who say the Obama admin or the Obamas themselves are anti-gay. I mean…how do you come to that conclusion?
I think there are always going to people out there who just don’t like ‘authority’ in general, left or right, and enjoy causing a ruckus and disrupting things, and they’re going to do it no matter who’s in charge. We love these sorts of people when they heckle Republicans, right? I wouldn’t say they’re always right, or even that they always have good intentions (I think this particular incident, racially-motivated or not, was just kind of dumb), more like I think any healthy society should have its fair share of people willing to do gonzo shit, even if it is kind of selfish or self-absorbed. Maybe that just means I’m immature, I don’t know. And it could well be racist, I just don’t like the assumption that it automatically is.
eemom
@Just Some Fuckhead:
hmm…..I guess Regular Fuckhead got the night off.
Mnemosyne
@Spaghetti Lee:
Also, to be clear, I’m not sure that most people are thinking that the actual interruption was racially motivated. It’s the interrupter’s comments to the press after the event that are setting off people’s bias alarms — really, the First Lady “asking” you to be quiet was so frickin’ terrifying to you? You were shocked and disappointed that the other people at the event were more interested in hearing what Mrs. Obama had to say than in what you had to say?
Spaghetti Lee
@Mnemosyne:
Sigh. I suppose. See, the reason I tend to get bristly when people start talking about privilege and subconscious racism is not because I have such a high opinion of myself that I’m offended at the very idea that I could be racist (I don’t really have a high opinion of myself, like, at all), but that the way it’s phrased, they make it sound like there’s nothing I can do about it. White privilege, the way people have explained it to me, is something all white people have, can’t get rid of, informs almost all their opinions, and can be safely assumed to be at the heart of any white person’s negative response to anything a minority says or does (or positive, for that matter. “Cultural appropration” gets me even crankier than “privilege”). I mean that’s…kind of depressing, isn’t it? Your ideas and values aren’t your own, they’re a product of an intangible social order that will always be with you and can’t be gotten rid of? It depresses me, when I think about it that way.
Mnemosyne
@Spaghetti Lee:
Through an assumption that all black people are anti-gay — that is, through racial bias. If you don’t believe me, look up some of the hysteria surrounding Prop 8 in California in 2008, where accusations of it passing because of the African-American vote were flying right and left for several weeks afterwards, even though those accusations turned out to be unfounded.
Spaghetti Lee
@David Koch:
But…they did. In 2004. I mean they’re not doing it now because Bush isn’t doing much. If it was just some random person I’d feel differently, but love them or hate them, CP’s been at this a while. They were formed in response to Bush and gave him plenty of grief. It’s not like the Tea Party, this group of ‘concerned citizens’ that happened to spring up just when Obama was elected and just happens to oppose ‘on principle’ everything he does.
David Koch
@Spaghetti Lee:
When did gay rights groups ever heckle Bush or Cheney? Any link?
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: The problem is that they didn’t really do that when the Republicans were in charge and they don’t do it now. Did this jackass pay money to go see Boehner or Ryan or Bachmann or any myriad of Conservatives who are actively seeking to make LGBT people second class citizens? No. She chose the FLOTUS as an extension of the President. If these people want to be taken seriously, they should probably go after the real enemy.
Jeremy
@Spaghetti Lee: And I hope I didn’t come off disrespectful to you. I agree that the woman wasn’t racist but the disrespect is ridiculous.
I just don’t like some of the racism and disrespect I’ve seen over the years. And I like you can’t stand the fact that Clinton get’s credit for gay rights when the Obama’s did more for the gay community and Clinton restricted their rights.
shortstop
@Spaghetti Lee:
Hmmm, I don’t get that vibe at all when it’s explained to me. What I hear is that it’s something all white people have to one degree or another — hard to argue with that — but the rest of this stuff you mention? I’m not hearing it. My takeaway is that I need to be mindful of it (at pretty much all times, to be sure), fight it in myself and make some genuine, sustained effort to crush it.
I’m not particularly Pollyannaish, I’m told, so I don’t think I’m sugarcoating it for myself. I think you and I are processing the information in different ways.
Omnes Omnibus
@David Koch: Code Pink heckled them. This person was from Code Pink IIRC. The subject matter of the heckling may be different (and quite misguided in this instance), but Code Pink definitely has been doing its thing for a while.
eemom
fwiw, which is nothing, of course — I also call bullshit on the assumption that this was racist. Code Pink may be counterproductive assholes in many ways, but I don’t think they’re racist.
I also don’t think MO’s response was fucking heroic. As I said earlier, I like anyone who tells a disruptive asshole to STFU…..but Jeezus H.C., it’s not “awesome.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Not me. I think Code Pink are by and large useful idiots for the right, and as Anya’s quote above shows, idiots in general.
and watching Corner Stone get all pissy in these threads, I feel the same mix of contempt and pity as when I watch Lindsey Graham talk about gay rights.
Mnemosyne
@Spaghetti Lee:
If you think that’s depressing, now think about being part of the group that’s having the bias directed towards it and realizing that you’ve also internalized the bias towards your own group, so you’re getting hit with it from inside and outside yourself.
I kinda understand part of it because I’m a woman, and I’ve had to deal with absorbing and rejecting societal messages about what I’m “supposed” to do as a woman and how I’m “supposed” to be and how I’m failing to live up to what society wants and beating myself up for it even when I consciously reject the standards. From what people have told me, that’s kind of what it’s like to be a black (or Latino, or Asian) person (plus minority women get a double whammy of “how you’re supposed to be [minority]” AND “how you’re supposed to be female” — whee!)
You can only do what you can do in your own life and take a minute to think it over when someone accuses you of saying or doing something biased. More times than I’d like to admit, I’ve had to be honest and say that the person making the accusation had a point, because I got blinded by what we’re all soaking in, all the time.
And now that I’ve thoroughly depressed you … our society really is getting better. It’s already better than it was when I was a kid in the 1980s, and it’s continuing to improve. The good news is, your grandchildren will roll their eyes at your embarrassing racial biases because they’re going to be so far beyond whatever enlightenment you’ve managed to achieve. And that’s a good thing. :-)
Anya
@Spaghetti Lee:
You come to that conclusion when you are someone who refuses to give the black guy any credit. GetEqual is founded by two southerners to counter other LGBT organizations and to give GOP cover while giving the Obama administration a hard time. Any organization that constantly refers to democratic leaders as “democrat leaders” is suspect in my book. Here’s an example:
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
At the risk of starting a fight, I’d say it’s for the same reason that Boehner/Bachmann/Palin threads get detached snark, while Andrew Sullivan/Glenn Greenwald threads get 300 comments full of rage. People who are too far gone to even grasp your complaints are boring, people who almost agree with you but have hit some snag in the process are far more tantalizing to argue with/about.
Now, I’m not saying this is right or a smart tactic, because it’s not: politics is all about convincing far-gone people, or at least shutting them out of power, but definitely not ignoring them. But lots of people see debate as a competition, and it’s a more satisfying ‘win’ to take down a worthy opponent rather than the equivalent of the raving street preacher who can’t even be ‘beaten’ because he doesn’t know the rules of debate. This is kind of far afield of the original topic, but I think it’s worth considering.
shortstop
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I have not had the pleasure of hearing Lindsey Smithers Graham talk about gay rights. Now that I know he shifts his attention from the millions upon millions of high-powered, international Islamic terrorists long enough to do so, I’ll keep an ear cocked.
David Koch
@Omnes Omnibus: that’s incorrect. the heckler was from a gay rights group, not CP.
so the question stands, why didn’t any gay rights group ever heckle a laura or george bush speech/fundraiser/etc.
And while I know CP heckled various congressional hearings, they never heckled Bush or Cheney. And it was really easy. All they had to do was buy a ticket to one of their fundraisers, just like they do to obummer.
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: Well, I don’t think it’s something that can’t be gotten over, but it’s not something that can’t be looked past, either. I’m a white, heterosexual male. My health care, and therefore my life, will never be under attack. When I get pulled over by the police, I know that all I have to do is put my hands on the steering wheel, be polite, and smile and I will be fine. No one will ever try to take away the rights I have inherent to my white, heterosexual maleness.
So, when I (we?) have a reaction to something, it behooves us to stop and ask ourselves how much of that plays a part. When I argue aggressively with someone who is a women am i being aggressive because she’s a women (and assumed to be weaker) or because we passionately disagree? These are the things white privilege is made of.
eemom
I also think it’s worth considering the hypothetical Keith G mentioned earlier: what would be the reaction here if someone had heckled Ann Romney over any of the myriad horrors that would have been a God-fucking-forbid Romtron presidency?
Mandalay
@Anya:
You make a great point, and I can’t find any evidence that GetEqual has ever gone after the odious Cuccinelli or Boehner. This blogger has the right idea…
Regardless of their cause, GetEqual really fucked themselves by going after the FLOTUS in this manner. I doubt if it will happen again any time soon.
Suffern ACE
@David Koch:
Because attendees at bush fundraisers were screened.
And this was $500. That’s pretty much the upper limited I’d spend to heckle a private event.
Anya
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Totally agree with you. I hate it when people heckle politicians or pull idiotic stunts. Code Pink is not helpful and GetEqual is an opportunist organization that hates that the black guy has the support of gays.
Just Some Fuckhead
@David Koch:
Log Cabin Republicans threw a stiletto at him.
majii
I would have done the same thing Michelle Obama did. Sometimes people get fed up with others holding them responsible for things they didn’t do or have no control over. IMO, if one wants respect, one gives respect.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@eemom: to complete this hypothetical, it would have to be someone from the right heckling Ann Romney. I can’t think of an instance of right-wingers heckling Republicans, at least not since the ’96 convention when Colin Powell (and Dole himself?) was IIRC booed by the pro-lifers. ETA: And no, I wouldn’t feel the same way, because those people would not be nominal political allies of mine getting in my and their own way because of some stupid self-agrandizing romantic notion of their own activism.
@shortstop: The Three Stooges gaves some kind of farewell party for Lieberman on Piers Morgan’s show, and Lindsey got very hot and bothered about marriage. Lieberman and McCain just sat there looking extremely awkward.
Baud
@eemom:
I don’t see any reason to treat the Romneys and the Obamas the same.
ChrisNYC
@shortstop: Totally agree. Something to be aware of. “Would I look at this situation the same if the race of the people involved were different?”
Not directed at Spaghetti Lee particularly but this consistent misunderstanding about “political correctness” or awareness of privilege that it means, “I have to [blank] whenever a minority [or woman] does x or y” always seems to me a total smokescreen. No one ever asked for that — and most members of unequal groups would probably cringe at the condescension. It was cooked up, I think, decades ago by the retrograders as a grievance.
Elie
@Anya:
Right on. Agree. No evidence but these people are paid or have an angle they wish to exploit. The right is awash in money for such shenanigans. I will one of these people could be investigated and evidence found of this. No white First Lady has ever had to go through this – ever. When THAT happens we can talk about “getting out of the kitchen”.
As for CS – well — he has to make his money somehow. What a lame ass.
Ted & Hellen
Michelle is great, just great, at making sure the peons know better than to interrupt the very important pontifications of their One Percent Elite betters. Good on her.
Mandalay
@Mandalay:
I stand corrected….
Yatsuno
@CaseyL: Heh. I luvvers u.
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: Then what’s the point? If it’s the personal pleasure of winning a debate, then (generally, not you) fuck off. Don’t pretend to be advancing a cause if all you want to do is pick a fight.
If the point is to make a statement and advance a cause, then I have to question the intelligence of those involved. If your target of choice is the President who has done more for pro-LGBT legislation that any other Democratic POTUS in modern history, I’m not going to think very highly of you.
Either way, it’s counterproductive.
David Koch
@Just Some Fuckhead: speaking of stilettos.
gbear
@Just Some Fuckhead: You’d think that FLOTUS was asking for an iced tea…
ChrisNYC
@Anya: Wow. Good catch.
I’m wondering if the other protester at the event, the one named Autumn Leaf, is actually a wingnut. If yes, tough row to hoe.
MaryRC
@Mnemosyne: Yes. The heckler’s comments to the Washington Blade later were all about how this “assertive” and in fact “pretty aggressive” woman waved her “big hand” and got in the heckler’s face, and while the heckler didn’t want to say that she had been in actual danger …. well. Big black woman was scary. I don’t see how you could interpret this any other way.
mapaghimagsik
@Cassidy:
The heckling was disrespectful. However, I don’t think that makes this, our cornerstones response racist.
Eric U.
@Anya: calling someone a “Democrat leader” is a tell, that’s for sure
Ruckus
Corner Stupid.
I like cleek’s bakery. I don’t go there very often because I like to hear reasonable discussions about many subjects. But some commenters are just assholes. Just like many people in the real world. I don’t need them and therefore don’t need you.
So Pie to you.
I’m sure it won’t bother you that I won’t read your shit any more but it will make my life ever so much nicer.
Cacti
I can’t believe how uppity the FLOTUS acted.
She should have gone and made some tea for the white lady.
David Koch
@Suffern ACE:
Not true. Remember when a porn star and porn producer attended one of shrub’s fundraisers. The only thing they screened for was the color of money.
Anya
@Elie: Look at their Wiki page (clearly written by GetEqual) – look at these two bullet points:
But no, they don’t have any hidden agendas. They’re for human rights and making elected officials accountable.
Suffern ACE
Lordy. Why would I pay to disrupt republican events when my money would go to republicans? I’d need to disrupt those events for free.
AxelFoley
@dewzke:
You new here or sumthin’? ;)
Spaghetti Lee
@shortstop:
@ChrisNYC:
Well, I do my best to judge the actions of people as individuals, not as reflective of whatever demographics they’re in, for what it’s worth. I can’t recall ever thinking that ‘women’ as a group or ‘black people’ as a group should act one way or another way. I’ve had plenty of ‘unfeminine’ female friends, black friends who don’t have stereotypical ‘black’ interests, etc. (I know I’m using kind of blunt words here: hope no one misinterprets what I mean.) I can’t recall ever being bothered that they’re not living up (down) to ‘traditional’ standards, because those standards are mostly bullshit. I’m sure someone looking at my life from a third-person perspective would find points of contention there, but hey, waddayagonna do?
What bugs me is that a lot of people on tumblr and wherever else talking about privilege and racism seem to be going in the opposite direction. The way some of them talk, the only conclusion I can make is that they really do see people as demographics first and individuals second. People (white people in particular, but not exclusively) never seem to have ideas or make decisions or enjoy things on the merits in this world, it’s always because their racial qualities are informing them. And “but I’m really not paying attention to race here” doesn’t work: it tends to get treated as a joke. I’m probably focusing too much on a small group here, but my lord they’re annoying. And they seem to be gaining in popularity.
TR
@Corner Stone:
She didn’t plan to heckle? Did you listen to the audio? You think the First Lady was in the middle of an impassioned speech about helping disadvantaged children and that inspired a totally spontaneous reaction about an executive order regarding federal contractors?
Jesus, you might be even dumber than I thought. Which is impressive.
Yatsuno
@magurakurin: Chotto baka da ne?
Mandalay
@Ted & Hellen:
What do you think she should have done?
Cacti
From the Tumblr of a lesbian african american…
Our Corner Stone’s still angry at the “inadequate black man” for denying Miss Hilly her patrician right to the White(s) House. His wife is just a proxy for that resentment.
David Koch
@Suffern ACE: cuz CP could leverage that into $1,000,000 dollars in free media against bush.
aimai
I don’t know why it makes (some white) people so uncomfortable to admit that there is a stunning lack of respect shown to Democratic Presidents and their wives generally–I well remember the contempt and hostility shown to Clinton, to Hillary Clinton, and to Chelsea (for example) and also and especially to President Obama, Mrs. Obama and their children because they are both Democrats and African American. I’m white and its stunningly obvious to me that people on both the right (where I expect it) and on the left (where I didn’t) are astonishinly comfortable accusing a highly educated couple of stupidity, ignorance, cupidity, mendacity etc. The level of sheer, ugly, disrespect shown to the President and First lady is just jaw dropping–I get that the right wing feel that any democratic president is illegitimate but the attitude of upper class liberals and of the so called left or, in this case, specific interest groups, is just the same. I have a whole lot of political diffrences with the President and his Administration but I just don’t get turning every event into a private side show. This isn’t organizing and its not effective advocacy, its just grown up tantrum throwing and attention whoring.
Cacti
@Ted & Hellen:
How dare the negress get her airs on with the white wimmins.
She should be asking to sweep their floors.
Yatsuno
@Mandalay: Why, sat down and shut up of course.
AxelFoley
@Jeremy:
Exactly. President Clinton gave them his ass to kiss on issues like DOMA and DADT, yet they love him. President Obama got DADT overturned and is working on getting DOMA overturned, yet they despise him.
Marc
@Spaghetti Lee:
No. Code Pink were formed to protest one of the greatest abominations of the Bush years, and they still came across like assholes. “Useful idiots for the right” sounds about right.
And GetEQUAL sounds even more “useful” than that. Anya@102, nice catch.
mapaghimagsik
@Cacti: I think this is why we can’t have anything nice.
Cassidy
@mapaghimagsik: I don’t think the heckler was motivated by bigotry at least not overtly, but again, no white FLOTUS has had to go through this. Secondly, as others have said, the reaction afterwards definitely shows some internal prejudice between the shock the FLOTUS (black woman) had the gall to speak to her like that and the apparent reaction to the “scary black woman”.
Cornerstone? Look, he’s an all around, unappealing asshole who has less redeemable qualities than LAnce Armstrong has balls. Is he a racist? I honestly don’t know. But again, he does get particular nasty and belittling with people of color, so there is definitely a respect issue going on.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Cacti:
Heh, yer gonna ruin his misogyny cred dredging up that old stuff.
scott
@Spaghetti Lee: Yes to all that. Sane!
aimai
@Cacti: Oh, this.Exactly.
You don’t have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind blows, and you don’t actually have to be a black woman to see the astonishing and insulting contempt that the heckler had for Michelle Obama as a black woman. I can guarantee you she would never, ever, have said the same thing about Hillary Clinton had she been heckling Hillary Clinton under similar circumstances. That’s not the way white women talk about powerful white women. Its the way they talk to the help when the help talks back.
TR
@Ted & Hellen:
Go fuck yourself.
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I have to say, the badger women in England have been making me much more annoyed and impatient with similar groups on the left in the US. Those women in England showed up at an unrelated protest to protest their own hobbyhorse (the British government killing badgers) and ended up chasing off the right-wing protesters instead of clashing with their fellow left-wing protesters.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a similar thing happening at a protest in the US, but I’d love to hear about it if it did. Usually from what I’ve heard, the left and far-left groups end up fighting with each other instead of with the right-wingers who are there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@AxelFoley: I really don’t want to stir up 2008 again, but since Corner Stone’s the only one who would be offended, what the hell? I could never figure out why so many Clintonites were determined to paint Obama as a homophobe, when he mentioned gay rights in his stump speech, and HRC only did so when speaking to gay audiences. Then as the the wheels fell off her campaign and she got more and more desperate, she brought up Obama’s “clinging” speech, and had a very sharp inflection in her voice when she noted that he gave that speech in San FRANCICSO.
Cacti
I also can’t help but remember when white gays vociferously blamed African Americans for Prop 8 in California…
Despite their casting a whopping 7 percent of the total vote.
eemom
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
There is a difference between criticizing our “nominal political allies” from “getting in my and their own way”, and acting like it is wildly inappropriate — and therefore presumably motivated by racism — for a public figure to be heckled on a political issue at a political event. The latter is the problem I’m having.
Mnemosyne
@Cassidy:
Like I said, it wasn’t the protest in and of itself that set off my alarms, it was the way the protester talked to the press about it afterwards.
scott
I guess social change happens by politely asking for it and with appropriate deference to our leaders and social betters.
shortstop
@Just Some Fuckhead: Why, some of his best candidates are female!
Look, why are we debating whether CS’s a racist after the Darnell incident? Seriously. The only thing to figure out is why people respond to him when he gets on here +8.
Baud
@scott:
Strawman much?
Marc
@AxelFoley: That always drives me nuts, too.
I think part of it is a generational thing. A lot of the older LGBT activists and donors are Baby Boomers, and they’re caught up in the purely symbolic, theatrical politics of their generation. Clinton did jack shit for gays and lesbians except to give them DADT, but he paid lip service to the idea of gay rights in his ’92 campaign and that was the most support any president had ever shown to that point. So his empty symbolic gesture gets him a pass on his lack of substantive accomplishment. Meanwhile Obama, the younger man who dethroned the Clinton heir and putative first woman president, gets no credit even though he’s far and away the most pro-LGBT president in history.
A 56-year-old activist for a group with exactly zero achievements to its name sits at the perfect intersection of generational resentment, politics as self-expression, and PUMAism to heckle the First Lady.
David Koch
for “an inadequate black man” he sure gets a lot of hot tail.
Just Some Fuckhead
@scott:
I imagine that might be more effective than heckling a speaker at a public event.
eemom
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Oh, but Hillz is his mommy figure. Whole different category from the rest of us worthless sluts.
Just Some Fuckhead
@shortstop:
lolwut? Corner Stone isn’t a racist. He hates everyone.
michelle
@Corner Stone: She should have just resisted and then everything would be ok.
Or not.
Did anyone get punched down for nothing?
mapaghimagsik
@Cassidy:
I’m not getting the same read, honestly. I might be missing it. I do encounter people who truly feel they are being earnest, and come off overbearing. I sometimes respond in kind, and yes, they are surprised at my reaction. Pointing out the protestor could have made their message better and more effective – even pointing out they were rude – is constructive. Lumping her with all those pundits trying to make political hay isn’t helpful, in my mind.
And yeah, given a magic wand, the first could have crafted a better response. It could have gone much worse, and in most of the interactions I deal with, it does.
aimai
@eemom: No one is acting like its “wildly inappropriate” in a democracy for people to make their political issues known. But it is a little off for a LGBTQ activist to heckle and disrupt a speech by the WIFE of the person they are trying to reach. A speech at a private house. A speech that the audience paid to hear. Its not an open political speech at an open venue so other rules apply–the heckler is no more entitled to bring up her issues at that house than the Fred Phelps people are entitled to attend the funerals of the people they are picketing.
As to raising her issue–I think its weird that these people, whether Code Pink or this other group, act as though they need to “petition” the President and his family directly as though he were a King. He’s not. He is not the only lever of power and he’s not even the most important. Essentially this person was making a special plea for a special class of people and bypassing all the ordinary methods for bringing pressure to bear on the President and, more importantly, congress. Why? Because its easier and more showy. But its not particularly politically meaningful. In fact, to the extent that she then went on to insult the First Lady its rather counterproductive. If you are going to make politics personal then try to remember that you make more headway by treating people like people with feelings than by attacking and insulting them.
Mnemosyne
@scott:
I would say I’m shocked by the utter lack of self-awareness or awareness of recent history in your comment, but I’m really not.
Yes, the poor oppressed white woman was cruelly slapped down by the socially superior black woman. When are white people going to get civil rights? When oh when?
Cacti
@eemom:
“She came right down in my face.” “I was taken aback.”
-Said the white lady trying to shout down the FLOTUS.
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom:
Cut that out, you ain’t worthless.
Cacti
@scott:
Scott is also appalled that Michelle didn’t just sit down, shut up, and let the troll have the floor.
scott
N@Just Some Fuckhead: Nope.
Mnemosyne
@eemom:
Again, I don’t think people would be having this same reaction to the heckling if the heckler hadn’t run to the press with her scary, scary story of how she was, like, totally looked at funny by the black woman and how shocked and disappointed she was that the rest of the crowd didn’t stand up for her. If she had just acted like a normal self-congratulatory jackass, we would have already forgotten her.
Mandalay
@scott:
You would not have posted that if you actually understood the reason for President Obama’s inaction on the issue that the heckler was protesting about.
Baud
@scott:
I’m persuaded.
Eric U.
I’m willing to believe that the protestor is of an age and status that she isn’t used to being emotionally body slammed like that. However, I am getting sick of the open racism and tacit acceptance of same that is going on wrt the President and FLOTUS.
Cacti
The basic level of disrespect shown to the First Couple is a common thread among the white left and the white right.
Ted & Hellen
@Cacti:
Why do you feel that way?
Elie
@aimai:
RIGHT ON — SING IT !!!!
Baud
@Eric U.:
This incident by itself is forgettable, but it seems to have unleashed a lot of pent up frustration about just that.
michelle
Yet another good time to link to this.
If others have before, I apologize.
Corner stone has been at this for a while.
I think he’s someone who just can’t believe that the world has changed, and has latched onto Anne Laurie for protection.
Spaghetti Lee
@Mnemosyne:
You guys made some pretty good points. I still don’t like to call people racist that I’ve never met and don’t know about other than their 15-minutes of fame, but talking about how ‘scary’ and ‘shocking’ it was to be confronted by a black person who wasn’t having your shit…well, come on, lady, even if you’re not racist in your heart or whatever surely you know how that will be interpreted, right? Or maybe not, and that’s the whole problem.
mapaghimagsik
@Cacti:
See, and its that response that reminds me of a person or two that I know, that just don’t know how they come off. And, while I consider my politics well aligned with the white house more than in a very long time, I can see where getting ‘the look’ from the First Lady of the United States, black, brown, green, or pink, would be daunting.
I’m not seeing the racial angle here, and if I was a rabid right winger, the idea of this becoming a nautral wedge issue just in how people immediately polarize it — well, I’d be getting popcorn.
I’m hoping the protestor learned something. Sometimes it takes something drastic, and getting the stinkeye from someone with the secret service backing them just *might* do the trick, shade of skin not withstanding.
Mandalay
@mapaghimagsik:
OT, but that is the perfect description of Laurence O’Donnell.
Cacti
@Eric U.:
I’m sure she also imagined many variations of how she would be dragged from the room, screaming in righteous fury.
But she wasn’t expecting the FLOTUS to put it to the audience and let them decide if they wanted to sit there and let the troll hijack the event.
eemom
@aimai:
You miss the point. I’m not arguing with any of that.
What I’m arguing with is the assumption that heckling the FLOTUS at a political event — however misguided, counterproductive, or otherwise fucked up of a tactic — is indicative of racism.
And no one has yet responded to the Ann Romney hypothetical. If she’d been heckled at a similar event (1) by someone on the left, we’d all be cheering, (2) by someone on the right, we’d all be laughing our collective asses off.
If respect is due to the “office” itself, it is due no matter who holds it. Likewise if the occupant of that office is fair game for a political agenda, they are fair game no matter what color they are.
Darkrose
@Spaghetti Lee:
Possibly because it’s like “some of my best friends are black”: usually not true and never relevant.
David Koch
@eemom:
Link or it didn’t happen
Ted & Hellen
@Cacti:
Oh fuck off. This is the wife of an elected servant of the people, not some fucking dowager empress.
Go live in England and slobber over the royals.
Spaghetti Lee
@aimai:
I’ll quit playing devil’s advocate for a minute, and whole-heartedly agree: there is an incredible amount of disrespect that the Obamas get that white presidents haven’t gotten, and it’s probably mostly due to race. I don’t have any problem admitting that. I do think, though, that had Clinton won in ’08, things wouldn’t be terribly different. We’d probably just be talking about all the people who can’t seem to handle a woman being in charge and wondering which male liberals were in that group.
Mandalay
@michelle:
You’re digging up a thread from 18 months ago in a meta-poster jihad?
Get away from your computer for a while, and go do something else, anything else. Seriously.
Darkrose
@eemom: Heckling the FLOTUS is not indicative of racism. However, when you follow that up with talking about how she got up in your face and was “scary”? Yeah, that sets off all of the alarm bells, especially since the Angry Black Woman ™ stereotype has been attached to Michelle from the moment her husband announced his candicacy.
Objectively, what’s scary about Michelle Obama? She’s tall? Okay, maybe. But other than that, the only thing I can see that anyone would find scary is that black women are totally scary. It’s our superpower.
AxelFoley
@Ted & Hellen:
Of course, this asshole has to chime in.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@eemom: I don’t disagree with you or Spaghetti Lee that there’s nothing explicitly racist in what this woman said or did, but her comments afterward are more debatable–
her “big hand” ? racism or not, this woman is clearly a moron with an inflated sense of self-importance. “She was very aggressive when I started screaming in the middle of her speech! Why, I never!” You don’t get to play Medea Benjamin and Margaret Dumont in the same scene.
Cacti
@Ted & Hellen:
I understand, she’s married to the black guy, and is equally guilty of blackity blackness. As guilty as the menacing Trayvon Martin.
Spaghetti Lee
@Darkrose:
But how is it not relevant? Here’s the sort of conversation I’m talking about.
X: “I really liked (minority actor) in (new movie).
Y: “You just liked them because they’re playing down to your white-privilege-fueled expectations of how (race) is “supposed” to act.
X: “No, I just think it was a really good performance.”
Y: “You’re just in denial. You wouldn’t have thought so if it was a white actor.”
I’ve been X in conversations like this, and I’ve always just been more befuddled than everything. Aren’t they kind of cycling back around to angry racists saying that women and minorities only gain mainstream pop culture acceptance because of ‘political correctness’ just swapping out white privilege for political correctness?
michelle
@eemom: I think there are those of us who want to protect and support this First lady. She is different, you must admit.
Comparing her to other women who have held this position is an unequal task.
We have to support her. Otherwise everyone, just like Corner Stone, will pull her down.
Have you ever faced the same situation? I’m sure you will say yes, but you are not the First lady and never will be.
Elie
@eemom:
So eemom – you don’t think that both the O’s treatment — the profound disrespect on every front — does NOT have a racial basis? REELY?
Granted, there are always other agendas, but surely you must admit that no other WHITE First Lady has been heckled during a speech about x from an advocate of y. If so, please give me an example of when Laura or Barbara Bush or other Repub white first lady were treated like this..
C’mon now — you usually get these kind of things…
ChrisNYC
@Spaghetti Lee: I get what you’re saying and not. I think I get what you’re struggling with but I think it’s sort of part and parcel of the whole complicated issue.
I think one thing that comes thru in both your comments is an idea that you are separate from the world you were raised in and inhabit; the powerful and who they are; the not powerful and who they are; even the metrics of power. The constant images; the constant hum of all of it which thoroughly reflects all of these structures. Indians own convenience stores. Black men show up in mug shots. Women and ‘unfeminine’ dress. Until quite recently, black women who had white features being considered beautiful but not those ‘other’ black women (remember Vanessa Williams and Suzanne Charles?). Our whole government and business elite being so predominantly white and male. And there’s obviously much more serious ramifications but I do think the cultural landscape has a huge role.
Those messages are all around us almost all the time and it does take concerted effort even to see them, let alone to try to separate “your thoughts” (meaning any member of our society’s thoughts, not yours particularly) from them. I think that may be an easier sell and maybe an easier task for people who are not in the hegemony group, whichever one it is.
I’m white. I’m a woman. So I go through the world with a lot of really crazy and profound messages about women. But then I have my own lived experience of being a woman, which is different; so in my own life I think I have some exposure to being the “other,” being in the non-hegemonic group. But, and this is very broadbrush, white men who are straight are given very different messages and almost none of those messages are about being (1) defined as part of a group or (2) being other. As to the “other” question, they are in many ways still the standard. And, as to the defined as part of a group question, a lot of the messages that men get seem to be based on each man being different, his own man, the master of his destiny. Not a product of the world but a product of his own making. But, to me, seeing privilege has to be proceeded by saying, “Well, I have thoughts that I did not choose; are not ‘rational’ or reasoned and they come to me from the world I inhabit. And maybe I want to investigate those.”
So, all that by way of saying, I think it may be just harder for someone in a lot of different hegemonic positions (race, gender, wealth, looks, westernness, Judeo-Christian, and on and on) to get the privilege thing. But, haha, that difficulty may just be another manifestation of privilege.
aimai
@Spaghetti Lee: I guess I don’t get the kneejerk rejection of the observation that its racist, or classist, for a white guest at a private function to express shock that the actual speaker, the first lady of the united states, was not sufficiently deferential to the heckler. There’s a hierarchy in this country and the President and the First Lady certainly rank very high by virtue of the President’s office. As invited speaker at the event the First Lady herself has a pretty high status whether you consider her a kind of host (since she’s giving the speech) or a special guest (since its generally considered an honor for the First Lady to attend an event).
Either way it isn’t necessarily rude for a member of the audience to ask a question, or even query the speaker about the topic at hand. But its definitionally disrespectful to act as though any one guest’s interests or questions take precedence over the rights and interests of the other guests. And its extremely rude, actually (to me) shockingly rude for a mere guest to instruct/insult/heckle the speaker. Especially on a topic that is irrelevant to the speaker’s area of expertise–what is she supposed to do? Pillow talk the present into ENDA? That’s pretty fucking sexist.
The fact that this middle aged white woman nerved herself to speak out of turn doesn’t surprise me–I’d have done it, and done it to Bush or Cheney if I’d gotten the chance. But I never, ever, would have been “shocked” that they had the temerity to push back against me. Its that “shock” and that complaint that turns this from garden variety asshole behavior into somethign where we really have to inquire into its race and class component. Because it doesn’t make sense any other way. You just can’t be surprised when an important person steps to you and lets you know you are out of line. You are only surprised and shocked when, in your heart, you didn’t think that person ranked right up there with little old you. And that can’t be about anything but race and class.
Yatsuno
@Elie: Oh, meant to tell you: my friend LOVED the pictures. I dropped that in a thread but you weren’t around at the time. I’m still working on her getting the writing translated but she’s a busy girl.
scott
@Mnemosyne: The heckler heckled to draw attention to her cause, and the well-known public figure, distinguished lawyer and graduate of Princeton and Harvard, handled herself quite well without needing assistance from any of us. God bless both of them, and God bless the United States of America. Neither event, the heckling or the response, is a problem requiring a solution or even much of an emotional response. That they’ve generated this much heat on this thread, with fevered speculation about What Everyone’s Secret Motives Must Be!, isn’t very encouraging. Namaste, folks! Democracy rocks!
Just Some Fuckhead
@michelle:
lolz
When the history of this Presidency is written, I’m sure you will be referenced by name.
aimai
@Spaghetti Lee: I have never, ever, had a conversation like that.
mapaghimagsik
@Darkrose: Like hecklers that heckle comedians, many of them don’t expect they’ll get called out over a length of time. Suddenly, its an uncomfortable positon for them, and they don’t have the camera and mic experience of non-stage people. It can be daunting, especially if, in the case of heckling, the person just was trying to be funny with a one-liner.
But, are we going to check out her countertops? Is there a broader issue here that needs to be dealt with?
I guess we could simply avoid some of the hyperbole, but then it wouldn’t be Balloon Juice :)
PsiFighter37
Code Pink fucking deserved that. They are absolutely fucking worthless. Go heckle the people who actually deserve it…heckling the First Lady of the most LGBT-friendly administration to date is stupid and pointless. I’m glad Michelle made the protester look like the goddamn fool she is.
I really hate the purity groups on the left side of the spectrum, mainly because a) they are fucking morons and don’t realize you protest the side that is actively hostile against your interests, and b) they’re really in it for the attention, which is probably more important than whatever issue they’re pushing. Then they can spam your inbox asking for more money. The problem is that they are trying to grift the part of the country that uses their brains, so they suck at doing that.
That might be a bit harsh, but that’s how I feel about it. They’re like Cindy Sheehan – someone who starts out doing something with an honorable purpose, then gets punch-drunk on the media attention and goes off the rails. I’m pretty sure by the time I stopped paying attention, she was criticizing Democrats more than Republicans.
ETA: If the protester was ‘taken aback’, maybe she should’ve used that wonderful mind of hers to think of a response, instead of thinking she could heckle off some pre-memorized script and hope to get yanked out of there before someone exposed her for the thoughtless fool she is. Typical purity troll…playing a chess match, thinking one move ahead, and being absolutely SHOCKED! when the other player counterattacks and destroys her position.
eemom
@Cacti:
As I’ve said, I like it that MO did that — and that it did, in fact, “take aback” this twit’s martyred, “I just can’t take it anymore” little ass.
I STILL can’t get from there, to the assumption that she wouldn’t have been equally “taken aback” if a white FLOTUS had done that.
Elie
@Yatsuno:
That is wonderful!!!
I look at them off and on. The people are so beautiful and so — unmasked — compared to us Westerners. Their beauty and sense of self is just so evident…
My favorite pic is of the boy running with a piece of corrugated tubing — looking back over his shoulder — sheer joy and laughter in that moment. I aspire to that every day in my life…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I have a feeling we’re going to find out. As Mitch McConnell’s moronic “golden girls” joke indicates, they can’t help themselves. One key difference is the women make up a much larger percentage of the electorate than African-Americans, and an even large part of the media, so it will be much harder for them to get away with it. Even Megyn Kelly and Greta Van S pushed back at Lou Dobbs and Eric Ericson. Tom Brokaw defended Mitt Romney from charges of racism, he won’t be able to do that with Andrea Mitchell sitting at the table and Maureen Dowd watching every word.
Oh, so I’m no one! Well, I never!
Cassidy
@aimai: Cheney would have shot you in the face.
Darkrose
@Spaghetti Lee: See, I’ve never actually heard that conversation, except as a caricature of a certain segment of media fandom. I’m more used to:
X: Charlize Theron was so good as Uhura in Star Trek LXVI!*
Y: Yeah, no. I wasn’t really thrilled with the whitewashing.
X: Why do you always have to make everything about race?
* Outrageous example used for effect, and is in no way meant to imply–aw, fuck it. Yeah, it is.
aimai
@Cacti:
I’ve been thinking a lot about the faux populism of the Ted and Helen shtick–the idea that its uppity (there’s that word again) for the first African American President and his wife to imagine that they are entitled to the minimum amount of deference, as President, that we have always accorded our Presidents and their families. I think it really pisses me off. Not because I’m a closet authoritarian and should “go to england and kiss royal asses” or whatever stupid thing T and H just said, or Cornerstone would argue. But because the argument that the President and First lady are public servants cuts the other way. We elected them. We chose them. They work for us. When this lunatic bitch started heckling FLOTUS she was attacking someone who is working for me, disturbing the speech and preventing the FLOTUS from doing something I want her to do. I also want to see ENDA passed. So to the extent that this woman was letting her political agenda interfere with mine (and the first lady) she was also being inefficient and destructive to our shared agenda. There’s a time and place for political action but attacking your friends and employees when they are, as far as I can see, doing their best to execute a number of difficult political tasks is just crazy. Its counterproductive. And its pointlessly self aggrandizing.
There are plenty of other reasons that are not racist for people to be assholes and I’m happy to also ascribe all those stupid reasons and thought processes to this woman. Its perfectly possible for her to be unconsciously racist as well as politically a moron. In fact, they might go together.
eemom
@Elie:
I absolutely think that it does. Absolutely.
I just don’t think it explains every instance of “disrespect”, and I think it is wrong and dangerous to assume that it does.
An example was given earlier of a grieving mom of a veteran heckling Laura Bush.
What about Medea Benjamin heckling the Prez two weeks ago? Was that racist?
mapaghimagsik
@Cassidy: If I remember correctly, Cheney was castigated by a man who touched his arm, and the secret service got involved.
Quick article here.
aimai
@Cassidy: Actually, Cheney had that guy arrested for walking up to him in a public space, not interfereing with him at a speech or a private event, and saying quietly “you ought to be ashamed of yourself.” Now that’s handling things with dignity! He only shot people in the face if they were personal friends.
TS
@Spaghetti Lee:
There is little else that would cause someone to attack/heckle the family of the man who is their biggest supporter in the political sphere. In their apology Code Pink noted
“By tweeting about how Michelle Obama “should have” responded to Ellen Sturtz’s interruption, we behaved in such a way that reflected a long history of white women dictating how Black women should behave”
http://codepink.org/blog/?p=63489&preview=true
So the evidence is there.
Cassidy
Time to mellow out.
Suffern ACE
@AxelFoley: good lord. Obama is going to get his god damned GLAAD award. After he leaves office. Don’t worry too much about it. My guess is that he would have been too busy to attend the ceremony and since the point of the damned award is to have a speaker at a $1000 or so a plate fundraiser for GLAAD, I’m surprised people are extra insulted.
@Anya: and this change of tactics is a sign of what exactly? When Democrats are in charge, they want to argue that democrats should pass bills that a majority of democrats support (pass the platform). And when that isn’t the case, when the democrats aren’t in charge, but congress is split, they want to push for things that the majority of people want. Kind of like sensible gun control activists want to push for background checks that have 70% support and not shotgun bans that have 10% support.
How is that a plot against democrats?
Elie
@eemom:
See your point —
And racism is not necessarily the worst flaw in this. I guess — for me — the rudeness. Of not being able as First Lady, to give a speech with a positive topic without being assaulted by someone whose issues you would probably support.
We have so so much incivility and it doesn’t help anything at all….
Shortstop
@ChrisNYC: wonderfully stated. Thank you.
aimai
@eemom: But nobody is saying that everything is racist. We are saying that given this woman’s comments after the fact, she seems to have some racist belief that the FLOTUS doesn’t outrank her and was not entitled to shut her down. No one accused Medea Benjamin of being racist for attacking the President during his speech–we just thought she was a fucking nutcase. And I used to be a member of Code Pink, back at its inception. Sometimes people are just rude. Sometimes they are politically astute. Sometimes they are attention whores. And sometimes, on top of it all, they are racist. Its not “dangerous” to note that. Its just another facet of the human experience, speaking sociologically and anthropologically. Race is just a huge factor in human social relations and in American social relations. It would be more odd if it weren’t a factor than arguing that it is.
Violet
I don’t think anyone needs to be deferential to hecklers. Loved how the First Lady handled it. Love her. And Code Pink is ridiculous.
eemom
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No no, I didn’t mean it like that! It’s just that to my mind you didn’t exactly respond…..you distinguished the case on the facts, as we say in my avocation.
Darkrose
@mapaghimagsik: Don’t feel like being whitesplained to , sorry.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@magurakurin: “People have the right to be an asshole, no question. “
Yup, look at the fine example of an asshole that posted right before you. What’s really special is that it’s a TEXAS-sized asshole!
Using the standard of Everything is bigger in Texas! …
rikyrah
Clown thought somebody was playing with her.
NOBODY is playing with her.
Michelle LaVaughn Robinson Obama put her ass in check, and next thing
you know…she does what punk ass biyotches do – they start whining.
She thought she was all ‘ big and bad’
and the First Lady said, ‘ No, I m not the one’.
rikyrah
a terrific writeup from the blogger that does the best Scandal recaps on the net
…………………………..
Michelle Obama Let a Protester Have It and I Approve!
[ 109 ] June 4, 2013 | Luvvie
People gon learn that folks got limits. According to the Washington Post, Michelle Obama was speaking at a private fundraiser when a lesbian activist named Ellen Hurtz kept interrupting her. She wanted POTUS Obama to sign an anti-discrimination executive order.
Wells, that wasn’t the time for her to be showing out and clearly, FLOTUS wasn’t here (nor there nor anywhere) for that. So she left where she was standing and stood in front of the woman and said:
“One of the things that I don’t do well is this. Do you understand? Listen to me or you can take the mic, but I’m leaving. You all decide. You have one choice.”
OOP!!! Like a REAL G! Apparently, people asked Michelle to stay and Ellen was showed the door, and I hope given the suggestion that it better not hit her where the good Lord split her. Cuz… WELP. And afterwards, the lady talmbout she was “taken aback” by Michelle stepping to her because she paid $500 to be there.
AND?!? $500 doesn’t mean you could be incredibly rude and make demands of the First Lady, who isn’t even in charge of policymaking. Ma’am, $500 doesn’t buy you a get out of good sense card. You better have several seats! Iunno whatchu thought THIS was. She was taken aback that she thought she could talk AT Michelle with no types of repercussions. Don’t come for Michelle when she ain’t send for you.
See? The thing is that people forget she’s from Chicago. Michelle LaVaughn Robinson ain’t here to take your shit. You act a fool and she might embarrass you. Plus, she ain’t never scurred. Don’t be fooled by the degrees and the poise and class she shows regularly. Ellen tried it and got what she deserved.
FLOTUS doesn’t have to keep taking the crap people hurl her way. Barack might need to be nice because he’s all leader of the free world game proper but Michelle ain’t the one in office. She has a limit and folks test it. Remember this epic side-eye she gave John Boehner on inauguration day?
http://www.awesomelyluvvie.com/2013/06/michelle-obama-protester.html
eemom
@aimai:
um…..outrank her?
mapaghimagsik
Its weird to see all the angles collide here. I get concerned about the ‘deference’ to betters angle, because we also hear it on the right about ‘comity’. It feels very much like a Village thing, and I see it at my work and all over. If we expect deference, then does it mean we should expect deference no matter who the particular person is in the role. I tend to think ‘Question Time’ is pretty cool and a few more elbows thrown in an egalitarian fashion might help get things out in the open faster.
The idea that the Obama administration has done so much for gay/lesbian/transgender rights is true. But with so far to go, I have trouble telling anyone who is oppressed in a way I’m not, “Don’t worry, be happy.” I’ve only done the media thing a couple times, and staying on message and not losing it when you’re being goaded is hard for people who don’t have a talent for it.
Lady said dumb things. FLOTUS got justifyably terse. Lady is surprised she said dumb things. Hopefully, with more time, she’ll figure it out, and become more effective in the future. However, I’d much rather she had t same rights I do, and not have reasons to lose it.
Sly
At which point the Code Pink heckler would have tossed a bucket of red paint at the First Lady before being dragged kicking and screaming from the premises.
David Koch
Oh fuck! Ugh.
Drudge has video tape of Michelle yelling at the white woman and it doesn’t look good.
MSM is gonna have a field day.
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuckity, fuck.
aimai
You know what I really think the heckler thought? She thought that Michelle Obama would be her best negro friend and welcome her instruction and insight and the two of them would go off and braid their hair and do their nails together. She isn’t shocked and hurt because she thinks of herself as better than Michelle Obama, she’s shocked and hurt that Michelle Obama didn’t recognize that she wanted to be friends–maybe Michelle’s best white middle aged, ENDA interested friend.
I’m not saying that to be funny. I’ve seen a TON of that among people my age, race, and educational status. There was quite a bit of that about the Clintons too. Democrats and people on the left thought “finally, one of us” and then they got jealous, especially people who had been to school with the Clintons or the Obamas, or could have been at school with them, or were at Law School with them–there’s a kind of “oh, wait, I could have been right there at the table with the President if I’d only known he was going to turn out to be President.” And there’s a lot of “hey, how can she be 49 and achieved all that? I’m 52 and I guess I’m never going to be first lady.”
I read the interview with the heckler and to me she comes across as a little bit…childish. In the sense that she had a model in her head of how the interaction would go and it didn’t include any realization that Michelle Obama was an actual person, with quite a bit of experience in the world, and that the wall between audience and speaker might be breached in both directions. She seems to be a bit in shock. And that leads me to wonder what she thought was going to happen–she doesn’t really seem to have thought about the situation at all politically or realistically. She ought to have assumed she’d be thrown out by the secret service. She didn’t think that. She actually seems to have thought that everyone, from FLOTUS to the crowd, were going to turn and hang on her every word and she’d get to take the stage and hold court. She seems a bit pissed off that Michelle didn’t defer to her. How else do you explain it but either some kind of subconscious race or class thing or a yearning to be mothered by Michelle and taken care of, all the more shocking when she found out it was not to be?
mapaghimagsik
Darkrose:
Funny. I don’t get called white often. Was it the font I used?
In all seriousness, I realize some folks might be doing that, but I’m willing to give some benefit of the doubt. Its not like I’m touching Cheney’s arm or anything ;)
Cacti
@mapaghimagsik:
Lady came in to the event as a plant, with the specific purpose of being boorish and disruptive. She was aghast that the FLOTUS didn’t smile politely and say aw shucks for her.
Just Some Fuckhead
@aimai: lolz
Are you drinking?
PsiFighter37
@David Koch: I LOL’ed. Well done.
Mnemosyne
@scott:
Yes, because when the heckler talked about how it was “scary” to have FLOTUS and her “big hands” coming towards her, she was obviously referring to FLOTUS’s Harvard degree. Isn’t that how people always refer to Harvard graduates?
Cacti
@Sly:
Code Pink has since posted an apology on their blog, including:
aimai
@eemom: You know what? When I’m in someone else’s house I defer to them as my host–or I don’t go. If I pay to attend a concert I don’t get up and play the violin in place of the first violinist. When I am in a social interaction with a person whose public function is important I treat them courteously–its one reason such people are called “dignitaries.” I also don’t piss on the floor. Its just common courtesy. I would have shown it to Bush and Cheney too, certainly to Laura Bush if she were giving one of her librarian shows.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Felanius Kootea:
I think the problem is that CS thinks that they were being just as polite as SL was in discussing this. Yes, I believe that CS is that brain damaged to think that. Most Hillary! ’08 supporters that switched to McCain are.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Diana
I come late to this discussion, and I agree that the heckler’s statements afterward seem to be much more of an issue, but I just want to point out that asking for the right to speak has a long and honorable history, e.g.:
“………She came forward to the platform and addressing the President said with great simplicity: “May I say a few words?” Receiving an affirmative answer, she proceeded:…”
lots of info about it on the web, but you can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain't_I_a_Woman%3F
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@aimai: It’s kind of comical how she insists that she paid $500 to attend, and is surprised that the crowd turned on her, you know, those people who also paid $500 to hear Michelle Obama speak, and not to hear some preening wannabe radical scream at Michelle Obama
mapaghimagsik
@aimai:
She certainly lacked message discipline, which, like it or not, can be followed to make the message more effective.
She had the cameras when she got thrown out. Things are already bad, and she could have made lemonaid to get her message out — again.
But she might have tried. Interviews are tricky. You can get edited to the point that nothing comes out with the original intent.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
One also remembers the many occasions when Code Pink and their imitators tried to shout down Laura Bush.
mapaghimagsik
@Cacti:
Good on them for recognizing the dynamic. Hopefully in the future, they’ll make different mistakes.
LAC
@Ted & Hellen: go ifuck off in a hole already, you pair of twats.
mapaghimagsik
@Cacti:
You might be right on this, but I’m not ready to buy that and slap a mustache on her face for her to twirl. But sadly, the issue is about her, and not her message, which means she wasted her time.
Mnemosyne
Also, I’m going to try to explain something that I think Keith G has been trying to explain to me — if I get it wrong and completely missed his point, I’m sure he’ll let me know:
He was bringing up the history of ACT-UP and I think his point was that there’s a whole generation of activists (particularly, but not only, gay activists) who came of age with a protest model that was all about disrupting events, like when ACT-UP New York would disrupt Mass at the cathedral. He seemed to be saying that, even if we thought that protest model was outdated, we should understand the history of it and why people keep falling back on it but, again, that’s my interpretation, so I could be totally wrong.
Violet
@aimai:
Narcissistic personality disorder.
Edit: From the Wikipedia description:
Includes five or more of the following characteristics:
Is grandiose in evaluation of self without demonstrating superior achievements
Concentrates on fantasies of great success, influence, intelligence, beauty or perfect love
Believes in own “specialness” and expects to associate with high prestige people or institutions
Demands to be overly admired
Feels entitled to special treatment and to have demands acceded to
Exploits others to achieve own ends
Lacks empathy for others
Frequently envious of others or assumes others are envious of him or her
Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior[8]
rikyrah
@aspirational12
@GetEqual
is a Libertarian front group founded in 2010 by two southern racist
Republicans to diminish support for PBO in the LGBT community
6:18 PM – 5 Jun 2013
Suffern ACE
@mapaghimagsik: yep. Nothing more derailing than a question train about “how did you feel at the time.” We’ll, since she was angry…we see what comes out.
The original New York Times article didn’t even bother to note what she was heckling about and the audio doesn’t make it clear. Yay! Nebulous activists being activists about something. We aren’t sure what it is, but you know. Activists and how they are. These ones are gay.
? Martin
Remember when Cheney told someone to go fuck themselves? Typical angry uppity white man the media said…
Suffern ACE
@Mnemosyne: a whole generation of gay activists came of age in an era where both parties couldn’t run fast enough from their issues. And so they split along party lines and outside party lines trying to figure out something that would work.
Keith G
@eemom: I give you cred for stepping into the breach, but after the first dozen comments here it became clear that finger pointing, name calling, and a defensive “teamism” would be the currency used on this thread.
Democracies are messy. The more robust, the more messy. The good guys (our side) have really gotten out of the habit of making noise. That is one reason that the far conservative rump punches above its weight class. They show up. They make nose.
I hate “free speech zones” and I think it is tragic that our political leaders (and a spouse giving a speech at a political fun-raising event is playing the role of a political leader) live in a sterilized bubble separate from the hoi poloi.
My complaint to the protester is that she chose such a relatively minor point to spend her 15 minutes of notoriety on. There are many more important issues that the DNC and this administration needs to be pressed on.
@Mnemosyne: B+
michelle
@Mnemosyne: They have won.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Baud:
I wouldn’t touch Scott’s comment with a match, that’s for sure.
@Just Some Fuckhead: “Corner Stone isn’t a racist. He hates everyone.”
I’m pretty sure that your first assertion is wrong and the second one is right.
Keith G
@aimai:
Wow….Just…Wow.
Mnemosyne
@michelle:
It’s not really winning or losing, IMO. It’s just, this is the tactic they have, it was successful in the past, and they pull it out whenever there’s an opportunity to use it because it has a cultural history. At this point, expecting it to be successful is almost beside the point because it’s such a cultural artifact.
@Keith G:
It took us a while to get there, but I think the general consensus is not necessarily that the heckler was wrong to heckle, but that she seems to have had some pretty weird expectations for what the results of her heckling would be.
Suffern ACE
@Keith G: yeah, but wouldn’t it be kind of odd for someone from Getequal to do that? I know, I know, she’s a private citizen. But she didn’t join that group because her public concern was social security reform. ENDA, DOMA and DADT are kind of their issues.
Now had she been from HRC she might have raised the lgbt connection to whatever the pressing issue of the hour was. But then someone from HRC isn’t actually prone to heckling.
MikeJ
@Mnemosyne:
Stupid people don’t deserve to be listened to.
Keith G
@michelle:
Re: ACT UP
Not when funding for the fight against AIDS is being cut as is currently the case.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Mandalay:
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”
History is important.
Keith G
@Suffern ACE: I can’t reach into her heart and determine good faith anymore than I can determine good faith here. Nor, til she writes her book, can I sit down and evaluate the logic she used when planning her activities. Growing up in the 60s and 70s and being politically active, a large percent of the protester types I knew could go from zero to loud very quickly and with surprisingly little thought.
Many of us do what we can to actively try to make this place a better one. That woman is not the enemy because of this alone, yet teamism here allows her to be personally vilified in the comments above. Too bad. That is such a wing nut behavior.
Mandalay
@Keith G:
Me too, and you certainly have a point for political events at least. In this thread we have people poutraged and getting the vapors because the heckling was done in someone’s house, conveniently overlooking that it was a political event with a $500 entry fee.
But she chose the cause she cared about, which is fine. My complaint is that she handled it so badly, both during and after her heckling. This protestor got little sympathy from anyone (even her allies), and harmed her own cause, and also cast a shadow over future heckling. I didn’t think much of Michelle Obama’s you-can-speak-but-I-will-leave approach, but it was deadly effective.
Mandalay
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Yes, some history is certainly important.
But waging a jihad against what someone posted on BJ eighteen months ago is not important, however much it raised hackles at the time.
Anyone here who spends time on that shit has lost perspective, and really needs to get a proper life. It’s only a fucking blog.
Keith G
@Mandalay: You are right, of course, in that I do not get to chose what motivates her.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Mandalay:
You think that racist bullshit that someone pulls is something that should be dismissed after a period of time? Why that’s mighty white of you.
Firebagging is hard, isn’t it? How you people can keep a straight face while spewing your bullshit is beyond me.
Mandalay
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
This is only a fucking blog, with tens of thousands of offensive comments. Anyone who feels the need to constantly remind us all how they were specifically outraged by what some other poster wrote eighteen months ago is a boring, self-absorbed loser.
Go fuck yourself, crybaby. Or better still, go though all the 2009 threads, and find more things to be offended about. And then report back daily, so everyone is aware about how troubled you are. Be sure to use multiple IDs. Jackass.
eemom
Well, on the positive side…..there did end up being a semi-coherent exchange of arguments on this thread instead of a complete degeneration into gratuitous name calling savagery.
Guess we can thank Corner Stone’s passing out early, curled up beside the toilet, for that. Hey, someone put a blanket over him….
eemom
@Odie Hugh Manatee: @Mandalay:
Oh shit. NM.
Ted & Hellen
@aimai:
Can you quote where I referred to Michelle or anyone else as “uppity,” you dishonest bitch (I figured you wouldn’t mind me calling you that since you just referred to Queen Michelle’s heckler as a bitch yourself)?
Thanks, and I’ll be waiting for your answer with the block quote of me calling someone “uppity.” Thanks ever so.
jshooper
Seems I’m late to the show but here are my thoughts anyway.
1. Code Pink and their affiliates are becoming the Westboro Baptist church of the left.
2. Why is that these groups invest so much emotion and energy in to attacking their allies in the Democratic Party instead of REPUBLICANS and CONSERVATIVES who are the ones standing in their way. Maybe if these douchebags hadn’t sat on their asses in 2010 and handed the GOP control they would see more progress being made.
3. The disrespect being shown to the First Black Family in the Whitehouse is something that won’t be forgotten soon by many black people like myself.
4. The usual suspects on the left seem to be releasing some bottled up hatred for Michelle over this incident. With accusations of her being a “bully, arrogant, snobby etc” being thrown around wildly. Also there is a bizarre notion that she is somehow an elitist. A black woman who grew up in a 1 bedroom house in the inner city of Chicago. (blank stare…SMH)
5.The white privilege displayed by the heckler is hilarious. The fact that she was “taken aback” by Michelle’s response and shocked at the audience for not siding with her is a fuckin joke.Talk about having a glass jaw and trying to play the victim.Good lord
gussie
1) A passionate person of low status and power interrupted a person of infinitely higher status and power with a rude but apparently heartfelt concern, and was put down pretty hard, rhetorically speaking.
2) An idiotic white woman shouted at a black woman guest of honor, in a display of public disrespect, and then expressed surprise that the black woman not only didn’t meekly accept the the white woman’s ‘correction,’ but reinforced her position of higher status instead of ceding that status to the white woman.
NA
@Keith G:
“Many of us do what we can to actively try to make this place a better one. That woman is not the enemy because of this alone, yet teamism here allows her to be personally vilified in the comments above. Too bad. That is such a wing nut behavior.”
So is Michelle Obama the enemy then?
If not, it really does have an impact on the argument.
gwangung
@Keith G:
Hm…if someone stabs me in the back, I might have a motive to speak poorly of them.
Motives count, but so do tactics and strategy. And they were sufficiently poor enough, I think, to earn her the comments.
sreja
I don’t have an opinion one way or the other about how Michelle Obama handled the heckler — it seemed a reasonable approach to me.
It was, however, clearly more aggressive than the way most political heckler/protesters are handled, especially by democratic politicians. Barack Obama for example recently was extremely patient with a heckler and made a very clear point of sympathizing with her concerns and giving her quite a bit of time to comment before gently asserting control. Perhaps overly indulgent many would say. And the left regularly ridicules and complains about Chris Christy when he exhibits this kind of aggressive response to hecklers/protesters.
Those cheering on Michelle Obama, who see racial elements at play here, might consider what they would be saying if the protester had been black and complaining about an issue affected the african american community, and the first lady had been a white republican and had reacted to the heckler in this way.
I strongly suspect that instead of a post entitled “Michelle Obama is awesome”, we would see a post entitled “Michelle Obama rudely disrespects and intimidates protester” and that most of the commenters here that have been cheering her on might be commenting on how incredibly disrespectful it was for a first lady to react to a black woman protester in that fashion — and point out how it’s not the standard way politicians reply to hecklers — and maybe suggest that racism was the reason that the heckler was treated so rudely..
People here seem to get so invested in cheering on their side and viewing these things from a very narrow viewpoint that they seem to have these knee-jerk emotional reactions to these events in ways that would completely reverse if the shoe was on the other foot.
Groucho48
I have no problem with someone heckling at an event and then accepting the consequence of being ushered out. I mean the fund-raising event was held at the house of a lesbian couple and she heckled the First Lady about gay rights.
I also have no problem with the way the First Lady handled the situation.
As to the issue. I can understand the Obama Administration wanting legislation rather than an executive order. But, really. There isn’t going to be legislation in the foreseeable future, with Republicans blocking everything. So, why not make the lives of thousand and thousands of gay couples better right now? As Sturtz put it…
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Mandalay:
Awwww, did I hit a nerve? I don’t have to go through any fucking threads because I’ve been here for fucking forever and have seen it already. Since you say that the past is not history here, I can’t wait to see you defend our resident Sandusky rape apologist.
What a burning bag of shit you are.
@eemom:
You, of all people here, should have known better. ;)
aimai
First off: its not “teamism”–I’m on the same side as this woman in wanting to see ENDA passed. I’m also on the same side as the First Lady and the other people in the room in wanting to hear more about the Democratic Party and the Administration’s various goals over the next three years and beyond to consolidate the gains we’ve made and to push for even more policies and programs that I approve. So when I object to this woman heckling the First Lady its not because she’s “not on my team.” We are all on the same team.
Second of all, the right thought experiment isn’t “how would you feel if a black woman had heckled Bush or Cheney and been treated this way” at all. That’s not the exact counterpart of this case because FLOTUS is not Bush or Cheney but the spouse of the President. If a black woman, or man, had heckled Laura Bush while she was librarianing or opening a garden party I would think pretty highly of her quick thinking at turning the matter over to the audience and basically making them do her work in shutting down the heckler.
But if you want the right analogy it is this: One day (g-d willing) we will have the first transgender President, lets say its male to female, and she will have a spouse too. And that spouse, for the sake of argument, is also male to female. And one day some asshole with a special interest axe to grind will jump up in a private meeting and begin shouting “Fulfill my demands now!! Power to [whatever] people.” And the first-ever-transgender-FLOTUS will say “Now, now, settle down, there’s only one mic and so only one of us can talk” or whatever. Now here comes the comparison part. The Heckler will go away and give an “spontaneous” and sincere interview and say “I was shocked when she so agressively put those huge hands out to me and looked so agressively at me and kind of got in my face.”
Are you going to tell LGBTQ people that there’s not a tinge of sexism/anti LGBTQ feeling underlying that word choice, that timing of the outburst, that way of thinking about the response? Are you going to tell people that a ground breaking LGBTQ first President and FirstSpouse aren’t entitled to police their own personal space, to handle their own shit, to give an uninterrupted talk?
Again: this is not a question of “teamism” we are on the same team.
Racism in this country isn’t an “either/or”–and its not a matter of “knowing whats in someone’s heart” or “giving them the benefit of the doubt” because its such a terrible, terrible, accusation. Its just there, another additional social and cultural fact about the way people confront each other in culturally embodied bodies. You can’t get away from the fact that two women in two different skins were in that confrontation, bringing with them a lifetime of personal experience that is raced and sexed and gender-oriented. Little miss “I’m tired of not getting ENDA” has had her experiences and FLOTUS has had hers. Not only do I not get to assert that its not racist (Or, frankly, sexist to demand that a woman influence her husband) I don’t see the necessity for refusing to see the obvious racial quality in the interaction.
Its not on/off its and/also. Like a lot of things.
Patricia Kayden
@rikyrah: Wow, I loved that! Great writer. And I agree that Mrs. O doesn’t have to be as polite as President Obama.
I loved the way Mrs. O handled Ms. Sturtz. Perhaps Ms. Sturtz and her gay rights group can find a more effective way to petition the President to address her concerns, i.e., protest in front of the White House, sign petitions on the White House website, etc. But heckling FLOTUS did not advance her cause.
And what was so threatening about Mrs. O waving her “big hand” in Ms. Sturtz’ face? Does she think that Mrs. O was going to hit her in a public setting? LOL.
debbie
Has Sullivan hit the fainting couch yet? That’s the real question.
Cassidy
@Ted & Hellen: Ahhhh the ususal T&H….”I didn’t specifically say it. I may have implied it with highlighters and neon signs, but I didn’t actually say that word.”
Howlin Wolfe
@magurakurin: Yeah, apparently this “corner stone” (implies a square head, I figure) character thinks words mean exactly what he/she/it thinks they mean.
Tyro
@sreja: It was, however, clearly more aggressive than the way most political heckler/protesters are handled, especially by democratic politicians
Isn’t that kind of the issue, here? Hecklers, particularly code pink, are used to having their behavior coddled by liberals, and as Keith G says, “go from zero to loud very quickly and with surprisingly little thought.”
I feel sorry for these maladjusted children who need to learn a new set of social skills, but there it goes. Michelle Obama put the heckler on the spot, put all the attention on her, and gave the crowd a choice, “the heckler goes, or she goes.” The crowd chose Michelle, and the heckler had no response and wasn’t able to handle the high stress situation. Probably because a socially stunted child such as the heckler wasn’t prepared to deal.
I’m not going to defend ACT-UP, but those people were DYING and getting ignored by the very people supposed to care for them. Heckling a talk by a First Lady over procedural choices made by the administration? That’s Bush League stuff right there.
Howlin Wolfe
@Spaghetti Lee: The racism part comes in how the FLOTUS’ reaction is viewed: Uppity black lady is “in the face” of innocent code pink heckler (whom the crackers would normally deride with derisive references to sexually assaulting her).
The heckler’s poor-widdle-me attitude after Michelle Obama deflated her balloon is also risible, but I don’t think that’s a necessarily racist attitude, either.
Nate Dawg
Just to chime in — Code Pink has been heckling, glitter-bombing, and annoying people of all political persuasions and races for a long time. Yes, they protested Bush during the war (where they got their start, I think).
I tend to think this has very little to do with racism. They are just as rude to everyone. It’s a form of protest. Her response was legitimate for a fundraiser, and a good way to handle the situation IMO.
You think it’s racist that she was shocked that Michelle got in her face? I don’t see how that follows. Most heckled people respond generally, or wait for security or the crowd to take care of it, and if you’ve seen Michelle speak (in person, as I have several times), I would be shocked if she got took the mic and got in someone’s face too. Doesn’t seem in keeping with HER STYLE (again, not because she’s black and therefore not allowed, but simply because she doesn’t tend to be so aggressive and her style is very conciliatory, especially when she’s with a friendly crowd). So yah, Heckler got more than she bargained for. Doesn’t mean it’s racism. Let’s not be the blog-that-cried-race.
Tyro
@Nate Dawg: So yah, Heckler got more than she bargained for. Doesn’t mean it’s racism. Let’s not be the blog-that-cried-race.
People slobber all over Reagan for his “I paid for this microphone!”* response to a heckler. Whereas people are all “shocked, shocked!” to see Michelle take her heckler down a peg.
*So much of Reagan and his “charisma” I just don’t understand. I was only 6 when he was elected, and I’ve realized that the admiration for his presidency was an “I guess you had to be there” thing.
Cassidy
@Nate Dawg: There’s also several different layers of bigotry that runs the gamut from overt cross burning to underlying prejudices. I think the words this woman used to describer her “scary” encounter does paint a picture of someone with some deepseated internal prejudices. She may not act on them. Hell, she probably treats people of different races no different than anyone else in public. Sub-consciously, to me, she’s one of those white people who has internalized the Chris Rock piece.
That’s why the debate turned to white privilege early on. White people tend to look at someone through the lens of a stereotype and when that stereotype is either proven to not be true or marginally made legitimate, we don’t really know what to do. The following response is usually a fall bak on to whatever prejudices are already held.
Plantsmantx
@Marc:
…and DOMA.
Pococurante
Awesome. Michelle remains my favorite FLOTUS-ILF.
Mnemosyne
@sreja:
It’s really interesting to me that you think there would be no racial overtones in a conservative white politician dismissing the concerns of a black protester.
You may want to think that comparison through a little more.
Mnemosyne
@aimai:
Yep. It’s like you’re playing in a soccer game, and you hear someone yelling insults at you from the sidelines, and you realize that’s not one of your opponents, it’s one of your teammates. What are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to react when someone who’s on the same side is attacking you?
Marc Kornblatt
Alas, if only the protestor, and Ms. Obama, had followed the example of Sugar Creek Elementary School.
Pass the sugar, please: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-RetYLazuI
Paul in KY
@aimai: The incident was, to me, an expression of upper-class white condension.
The woman who heckled is probably from a wealthy family and/or is wealthy herself.
Paul in KY
@Mnemosyne: Our left wing demonstrators generally seem to be weenies.
Paul in KY
@aimai: In right wing circles, being shot in the face by Cheney is considered quite an honor. Sorta like how the Nazis revered anyone who had been in the 23 ‘Beer Hall Putsch’.
Paul in KY
@Cacti: Comment on the tweet: No shit.
Paul in KY
@Mnemosyne: I think the ACT-UPers, etc. were generally a bunch of drama king/queens who did their thing for the adrenalin jolt, fun they got from it & not from a sincere idea that that method of protesting was the best way to get their message across (generalizing here).
Paul in KY
@sreja: I think Gov. Christie would have been a bit more gleefully heavy handed in his comments to the same heckler-type.
FLOTUS was firm & restrained, IMO.