Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Happy indictment week to all who celebrate!

You cannot shame the shameless.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

You are here: Home / Even the Snowden Lynch Mob Will Like This

Even the Snowden Lynch Mob Will Like This

by | 216 Comments

This post is in: 

Heh:

Since Snowden’s purported arrival in Moscow yesterday, scores of journalists have been staking out Sheremetyevo Airport, hoping to catch the 29 30-year-old (happy birthday Ed!) ex-contractor as he left Russia, possibly with an eventual destination in Ecuador, where he’s reportedly seeking asylum. When Russian media reported that he’d booked a ticket on Aeroflot Flight 180 to Havana, Cuba, a number of them did the journalistic thing and booked tickets as well.

Only: Snowden never showed.

***

And now, in a national-security version of the Rihanna plane, journalists from AP, AFP, BBC and NBC News, among others, are trapped on a 12-hour flight from Moscow to Cuba. It gets worse:

    Starting from Feb 10, 2010, the sale of alcohol is suspended on flights to/from Havana, Bangkok, Shanghai, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Yuzhno-Sahalinsk, and Khabarovsk.

And worse (or, really, better?): Thanks to travel regulations in Cuba, they’ll have to stay there three days before they’ll be allowed to fly back.

Snicker.

Reader Interactions

216Comments

  1. 1.

    Comrade Jake

    I think the lynch mob has plenty to discuss today as it is. Given that Greenwald started working with him before he took the job at Booz-Allen, well, I hate to say it but perhaps Gregory’s question on MTP wasn’t entirely without merit.

  4. 4.

    jibeaux

    An Aeroflot flight to Cuba? It sounds like some sort of weird ’80s joke news, like Not Necessarily the News or something.

  5. 5.

    bill d

    I’m more of a popcorn chewer than a lynch mobber. Looks like this thing is just getting uglier and uglier by the day.

  6. 6.

    Dexter

    Rick Santorum named CEO of a film company.

    ETA: FYWP for not allowing me to post a link to TPM.

  7. 7.

    Villago Delenda Est

    The dancing bears are getting agitated about having to switch flights so frequently.

  8. 8.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @jibeaux:

    Flew in from Miami Beach BOAC
    Didn’t get to bed last night
    All the way the paper bag was on my knee
    Man I had a dreadful flight

  11. 11.

    Librarian

    This reminds me of the travels of TB Man when everybody was wondering where he was and which flights he was on.

  12. 12.

    Dexter

    Wonder why no alcohol sale? Too many drunk passengers to and from those places perhaps.

  13. 13.

    hitchhiker

    So funny! No booze, a twelve-hour flight, three days in Havana, and NO STORY.

    Hahahahaha.

  14. 14.

    Jerzy Russian

    I love all of these ads for legal travel to Cuba. May the FSM bless Al Gore again for his wonderful invention.

    Starting from Feb 10, 2010, the sale of alcohol is suspended on flights to/from Havana, Bangkok, Shanghai, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Yuzhno-Sahalinsk, and Khabarovsk.

    Thankfully, this will have little practical impact on my day-to-day life. Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky is somewhat far down my list of places to go to.

  15. 15.

    bill d

    Guardian columnist cashes out of the Snowden fan club:
    Michael Cohen‏@speechboy711h
    So if you decide in advance to break the law . . . you’re definitely not a whistleblower:

  18. 18.

    Baud

    And Rosie O’Donnell is on the plane singing “Clang, Clang, Clang, wen the trolley” , and it’s headed straight for the sun. /obscure Simpsons reference

  20. 20.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: Not too obscure to be workin’ on my tannage, buuuuuudddy.

    Does the Snowden Lynch Mob share office space with The People Who Think Snowden Is The New MLK?

  21. 21.

    Villago Delenda Est

    A press released billed EchoLight as “the first movie company to produce, finance, market and distribute faith-based, family films across all releasing platforms.”

    Well, they’ve got the marketspeak down good. Whether the films they propose to release have any mass appeal of course remains an open question. Is Kirk Cameron going to be their main box office draw?

  22. 22.

    amk

    Thanks to travel regulations in Cuba, they’ll have to stay there three days before they’ll be allowed to fly back.

    Love it.

  23. 23.

    Eric S

    The very first time I ever flew in a plane I went from Chicago to Moscow with a layover in Shannon, Ireland, on an Aeroflot flight. I could be wrong as my memory from 20 years ago is a bit hazy but there may have been live chickens and goats on board.

  30. 30.

    The Dangerman

    If I’m flying to some hole called Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, getting loaded would be priority 1…

    …but why would you board the plane until you see Snowden actually get on? Damn, wait to the very, very last second and make sure the Dude shows.

  33. 33.

    lol

    @Comrade Jake:

    I’ve been saying this from the very beginning. Greenwald, in his own words (that he’s since went back and deleted without explanation), said he started working with Snowden in February. Snowden started working at Booz Allen in March.

    Now, Snowden says he got the job at Booz Allen explicitly to leak classified material. It certainly explains how lackluster the revelations have been.

    Did Greenwald know he was planning to find something to leak?

  34. 34.

    Suffern ACE

    @Dexter: they’re Russians going on vacation to a tropical place. I’m assuming they don’t know how to handle their alcohol.

    :)

  35. 35.

    dmsilev

    Starting from Feb 10, 2010, the sale of alcohol is suspended on flights to/from Havana, Bangkok, Shanghai, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Yuzhno-Sahalinsk, and Khabarovsk.

    Absolutely horrible. Without booze, how will all those ordinary passengers survive 12 hours in the same confined space with all those journalists?

  38. 38.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Ugh: I didn’t think Josh Marshall could even prove the continuing existence of the shark, it had been so long since he jumped it.

  40. 40.

    roc

    @Villago Delenda Est: I’d normally crack a joke about the whole studio being a tax dodge, so Santorum can be kept on the payroll cheaply. But given the industries that bilk dollars from that crowd in just about every facet of their life, I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t (or doesn’t become) fantastically financially successful.

  42. 42.

    bill d

    @Dexter: Russian national flag carrier Aeroflot has banned the sale of alcohol on selected long-distance flights in an attempt to end alcohol-fuelled violence and debauchery.

    link

    In a move prompted by a series of embarrassing mid-air drunken fights and scandals, Aeroflot revealed it had introduced a blanket ban on the sale of alcohol in economy class on selected routes from February.

  43. 43.

    ruemara

    Lynch mob. You know, even if you think Snowden had his heart if not his head in the right place, he’s still wandering over into the arms of our non-friends, prattling about secrets and freedom as he seeks asylum from places with astounding failures on secrets and freedom. At this point, I just wonder how long he’ll last. Because I doubt he has anything revelatory-can’t wait for the next WikiLeaks dribble. Considering all the ties to Assange and WikiLeaks, I’m guessing he’ll be bunking down with Assange after arraigning this jaunt for the gullible press.

  44. 44.

    Ben Cisco

    When Black Monday falls you know it’s got to be
    Don’t let it fall on me
    When Black Monday comes
    I’ll fly down to Havana

  45. 45.

    Napoleon

    @The Dangerman:

    …but why would you board the plane until you see Snowden actually get on? Damn, wait to the very, very last second and make sure the Dude shows

    I think the answer is that as a reporter you have to assume that Russia wants him gone so there a real chance that after last call is made they let him waltz on aboard, whereas the ink stained press is never going to be afforded that break. It 15 reporters wait until after the last second all of them would be screwed as Snowden boarded.

  47. 47.

    Ash Can

    As I mentioned in the last thread, it’s looking a lot more like going to China and Russia with his information was Snowden’s own plan all along, and that Greenwald, with his admission of working with Snowden before he was hired by Booz Allen, has an awful lot of ‘splainin’ to do.

  48. 48.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @roc:

    You’re thinking a Max Bialystock operation? Make a series of movies so sucky they’re bound to be flops, then take the money and run?

    No, you’re right, the target market for these vultures is ripe for more plucking. In its own way it will be quite successful, even if there is no breakout into the broader market.

  49. 49.

    Ted & Hellen

    Cole, how is it that authoritarian loving whackos are the prevalent commenting cohort on your blog?

    Didn’t you give all that up during your Road To Baracknus moment a few years back?

    Weirdly fascinating how they swarm and pustulate here.

  50. 50.

    The Tragically Flip

    @lol:

    Did Greenwald know he was planning to find something to leak?

    If he did, so what?

    Is that illegal? This idea that Greenwald “helped” Snowden leak classified information seems to fail the logical test of “what help could Greenwald provide that Snowden would even need?” There’s no part of the allegations against Snowden that requires anyone’s assistance.

  53. 53.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    OT: Zimmerman’s lawyer apologized for his knock knock joke— actually, it’s a pretty lame ass “I’m sorry you have no sense of humor” apology.

  55. 55.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Roger Moore:

    They needed to get on first to ensure there was space for their oversized carry-on luggage.

    Ha.

    Wonder which one of them carried on John McCain’s tire swing?

  58. 58.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @The Tragically Flip:

    What this winds up being is a searing indictment of Booz Allen’s hiring practices, and demonstrates some sort of serious problem with the vetting process for those who have access to classified information.

    Back when I was a mere shavetail, I entered the service with a particular security clearance secured before I was commissioned. Then when I got to my first assignment, I was deemed fresh meat for the nuclear surety program, so I was put in for a higher level clearance to participate in that. The process of vetting me took a full year…and by the time my new clearance was granted, I had been transferred out of my first unit to another one which was not tasked with nuclear surety operations.

    However, eventually, it caught up with me…and I got sucked into nuclear surety farther down the road.

    If I say much more, I’ll have to kill you all.

  60. 60.

    Comrade Jake

    @FlipYrWhig: That’s really not a fair criticism of TPM. So far as I can tell, they still do some reporting. Plus, there’s no tab for “side-boob”.

  61. 61.

    Violet

    Three days in Cuba doesn’t sound that bad. Beaches are supposed to be great. Could be worse places to end up.

    Snowden sending the journalists on a wild goose chase just cracks me up. There’s our ace reporter class hard at work.

  63. 63.

    Comrade Dread

    @The Tragically Flip: IANAL, but it seems like if Greenwald and Snowden discussed his taking a job at the NSA specifically to spy on the United States government, that, yes, it would be a big deal that could result in some conspiracy (among other) charges for Mr. Greenwald.

  65. 65.

    Suffern ACE

    @The Tragically Flip: Yep. I agree. He may have known what Snowden was up to, but I doubt GG has connections at Booz to help Snowden secure employment. Or special knowledge that once one was inside Booz, one could easily rob the servers.

  66. 66.

    piratedan

    Well even if Snowden did buy/procure/steal GG a bottle of Old Harper, that still doesn’t excuse Snowden of robbing the package store

  67. 67.

    lol

    @The Tragically Flip:

    Yes, enticing someone to leak classified material is illegal.

    There’s certainly a fine line between receiving and publishing information that was leaked to you (legal) and encouraging a source to leak information to you to publish (illegal). Rosen certainly walked it with his “leak me some info so I can influence foreign policy” line with his source.

    Greenwald was working with Snowden before he started working at Booz Allen. Which side of the line do you think that falls? Or are we simply supposed to not ask?

    What does Greenwald offer? You mean other than a ready and willing politically sympathetic media outlet?

  71. 71.

    The Tragically Flip

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yeah, no doubt. Yglesias had a good line on Twitter the other day: “Shorter US government — Snowden is history’s greatest monster & all your info is safe with thousands of similar contractors.”

  72. 72.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @lol: Rosen certainly walked it with his “leak me some info so I can influence foreign policy” line with his source.

    I despise Greenwald, but Rosen strikes me as more unethical, to put it mildly. I

    @Comrade Jake: Plus, there’s no tab for “side-boob”.

    You gotta pay for TPM prime to get the side-boob.

  76. 76.

    Jay C

    @hitchhiker:

    So funny! No booze, a twelve-hour flight, three days in Havana, and NO STORY.

    Yeah: really makes me feel sorry for the poor slobs: having to spend three days in Cuba lounging at some beach club, swigging rum drinks and tapping away at their laptops trying to make their enforced layover sound like the Bataan Death March as written by John Le Carre…

    Needs moar rum.

  77. 77.

    mdblanche

    The reporters should have checked the flight manifests more carefully. The crew on Snowden’s flight were Huple and Dobbs. The flight crew for Havana are McWatt and Daneeka.

  78. 78.

    Mark B.

    I don’t think being stuck in Havana for three days is all that terrible of a punishment. I could have a great time just checking out all of the classic cars. And drinking. That always works.

    The thing about Snowden running to China and Russia with classified info, is that he’s pretty much exhausted his options. Where does he go now? The Duchy of Grand Fenwick? He’s running out of countries that are both big enough to take on the US diplomatically and are desirous of the information he has and the PR bonanza of having him mete it out bit by bit.

  80. 80.

    Baud

    Are any of the reporters on the plan American? How the hell are they permitted to go to Havana?

  82. 82.

    Suffern ACE

    @Mark B.: Yeah. More than a little disappointed by the Russians, here. Putin makes a big show of offering assylum and then pulls the plug and won’t offer a visa when Snowden arrives. He doesn’t seem very honest or trustworthy. My gut was wrong about him.

  84. 84.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    kind of on topic: Sullivan has now three posts entitled “David Gregory is what’s wrong with Washington”. I suspect Sullivan has a lot of readers in the Village, that’s gonna sting. Pierce, of course, says the same thing a lot better, but I suspect his readership among Ben and Sally’s guests lists is somewhat smaller.

    Every actual journalist at NBC should spit every time David Gregory walks by. Hell, the janitorial staff should spit as he walks by, but that would simply be making more work for themselves, so I guess they won’t. As someone who’s now straddle the Big Ditch between the old media and the new, I will grant you that the definition of who’s a journalist has become rather fluid over the past few decades. Whatever you may think of Glenn Greenwald — and, Jesus, he makes it tough sometimes — what he’s doing with Edward Snowden is journalism by any definition anyone ever proposed for it

  86. 86.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Suffern ACE:

    I gazed into Putin’s eyes and saw someone simpatico to my own world view.

    But that’s just me.

    On edit: /shakefist at Cassidy

  87. 87.

    tulip

    Open thread right? Any tennis fans around? Big, big upset at Wimbledon today on the gentlemen’s side.

    As to the OT I think it’s pretty sad that Putin stole his computer. Pathetic doesn’t even begin to describe his behavior. Not sure if Snowden is that naive or what.

  90. 90.

    Mark B.

    @Baud: It’s legal to travel to Cuba, although they don’t stamp your passport if you’re American in order to keep embarrassing questions from being raised. What’s illegal is to spend U.S. currency in Cuba. Either you change your money before you go into something else, or just spend cash and keep quiet about it. I imagine it would be a bit difficult to pay for things with a credit card on an American bank. This was the situation a couple of years ago, but it might have changed recently.

  91. 91.

    Comrade Dread

    @Suffern ACE: I’m not particularly surprised.

    While China and Russia definitely don’t mind poking the US in the eye on occasion, I doubt they want the whole affair to become a long term irritant. Especially if the information Snowden has left that he hasn’t divulged (assuming there’s anything left at all) isn’t worth the diplomatic headache.

    Heck… I would be surprised if China and Russia didn’t already have long term moles in our government leaking more and better information than a contractor who’d only been on the job for 3 months.

  92. 92.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Jay C:

    to make their enforced layover sound like the Bataan Death March as written by John Le Carre…

    “and then Senorita Mendez tortured me by sucking on each one of my toes while I sipped a Cuba Libre…it was agonizing….”

  93. 93.

    Roger Moore

    @The Tragically Flip:
    It’s a good line, but has Snowden actually shown that he was able to invade people’s privacy on a whim? As far as I can tell, the strongest claim he’s made is that the privacy protections built into the NSA system are procedural rather than technical, so they could be ignored ; he hasn’t shown that he could obtain personal information without getting caught.

  94. 94.

    The Tragically Flip

    @lol:

    It’s not hard to imagine how this could work:
    Snowden: I know stuff, want to write about X, Y and Z?
    Greenwald: Yes, but got docs proving those claims?
    Snowden: Hold on while I change jobs to get them. Can you guarantee you’ll write about them promptly?
    Greenwald: Yes. Get back to me if you have docs to release, and I’ll write about that stuff.

    Yes Greenwald offers a sympathetic outlet, but that’s not “enticing.” It’s the whole point of leaking is to leak to someone able to get your material out there and widely discussed. Snowden has made quite clear he decided on his own that he had to leak all this stuff, alleging somehow Greenwald persuaded him appears without merit.

  96. 96.

    burnspbesq

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Just once, shithead, move beyond unfunny mockery of people who actually care about something and actually express an opinion on a topic.

    I’ll make it really simple for you: a question with no dependent clauses and no big words.

    Should Greenwald go to jail for conspiring with Snowden?

  99. 99.

    Cacti

    @The Tragically Flip:

    Snowden has made quite clear he decided on his own that he had to leak all this stuff

    Would that be the same Snowden who recently changed his story from “I’m a whistleblower who was disgusted by what I saw,” to “I took a job with a national security contractor under false pretenses, to purloin classified information”?

  100. 100.

    burnspbesq

    @Baud:

    They’re part of Wile E. Coyote’s … err, Julian Assange’s … genius plan. The journos who illegally traveled to Cuba are supposed to tie up the entire US law enforcement and intelligence apparatus long enough for Wikileaks to sneak Snowden out of Moscow in a FedEx envelope and deliver him to Guayaquil.

    And once they’re inside the enemy walls, they will jump out of the rabbit and …

  101. 101.

    Mark B.

    @Suffern ACE:

    [Putin] doesn’t seem very honest or trustworthy. My gut was wrong about him.

    Perhaps that time he tried on a 25K Superbowl ring and just stole it should have clued you in on the untrustworthiness of old Uncle Vlad.

  102. 102.

    Ted & Hellen

    @ruemara:

    he’s still wandering over into the arms of our non-friends

    ,

    What a bizarrely Cold War, retrograde view of the world. “Our” worst non-friends are in Washington D.C., fucking us over from tehir offices as elected servants of the Oligarchy.

    Good god, wake up.

  104. 104.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @burnspbesq:

    Should Greenwald go to jail for conspiring with Snowden?

    As long as they aren’t in the same cell together where their lust for each other could result in little traitor babies.

  105. 105.

    Comrade Jake

    @The Tragically Flip: that’s probably the most favorable light this all could be cast in for Greenwald. It’s also not difficult to imagine an entirely different exchange that’s not quite so favorable. It’s all speculation at this point.

    However, IIRC Greenwald stated that Snowden did not take the job at Booz with the intent of leaking classified info. It seems clear that someone is lying.

  107. 107.

    Comrade Jake

    There is a pretty large chasm between discovering that your employer is doing something you think is wrong, on the one hand, and taking a job with the intent of acquiring evidence of wrongdoing, on the other.

  108. 108.

    Cacti

    @Comrade Jake:

    However, IIRC Greenwald stated that Snowden did not take the job at Booz with the intent of leaking classified info. It seems clear that someone is lying.

    Not necessarily. I think it’s highly plausible that GG got played.

  109. 109.

    tulip

    @mdblanche:

    I’m probably a day behind… but didn’t Putin steal Snowden’s lap top during a layover? Or maybe that was an onion story…

  113. 113.

    kc

    @Comrade Jake:

    There is a pretty large chasm between discovering that your employer is doing something you think is wrong, on the one hand, and taking a job with the intent of acquiring evidence of wrongdoing, on the other

    .

    Because . . . why?

  117. 117.

    Jack the Second

    What’s the big deal with Snowden having a plan to leak from day one? It’s not like Upton Sinclair ever wanted a career in meatpacking.

  118. 118.

    Ruckus

    Do the reporters have to spend the three days in the airport?
    Or are the three days meant to allow more foreign currency into Cuba?

  119. 119.

    Keith G

    I am very amused by the lame-i-tude of those who are still trying to cast this into the frames of either Snowden is a saint or that Snowden is a sinner.

    Aside from the reality that most humans are a mixture is the notion that it doesn’t matter except to those who want to justify one silly argument or another. Snowden is not the end concern. He is a means to an end. We are talking about topics that even our President has seemed reluctant to bring up…proactively.

    Now, it won’t last long because A) The top of the pyramid seems to want us to move on and B) Statistically, it won’t be long before a young white chick goes missing (or murders someone). So instead of fussing about whether Snowden or Greenwald are purer than Caesar’s wife, let’s keep the discussions focused on privacy, transparency, the true nature of needed surveillance, and where the “”No-Go” boundaries are in our civil liberties.

    Edit
    @Jack the Second:

    What’s the big deal with Snowden having a plan to leak from day one? It’s not like Upton Sinclair ever wanted a career in meatpacking.

    Obama wasn’t Present n 1906.

  120. 120.

    Haydnseek

    @Cassidy: I’m no fan of John McCain, but after Bush uttered this immortal line, McCain said, and I paraphrase, “I looked into his eyes and saw KGB.” Bush didn’t say anything. He probably thought KGB was some defense contractor that Cheney was paying under the table.

  121. 121.

    Heliopause

    No, John, the Snowden Lynch Mob didn’t like this, as evidenced by their immediate changing of the subject.

  123. 123.

    Ted & Hellen

    @burnspbesq:

    Fuck off and get over yourself.

    I come here mainly for the freak show in comments. The know it all/know nothing authoritarians are currently the big event.

    That you would even posit that ridiculous question tells me all I need to know about the part you’re playing in today’s freak show.

  130. 130.

    rikyrah

    when one takes a job for the intent purpose of spilling American intelligence

    one is a TRAITOR.

    sorry that some of you climbed out on the limb trying to prop this traitor up as some hero…

    but, a traitor is a traitor.

  132. 132.

    The Tragically Flip

    @Cacti:

    I don’t think these are mutually exclusive. In fact that hangs together with the conversation I imagined between Greenwald and Snowden above: Snowden was generally aware of abuses, or had seen them specifically in previous roles, and when he decided to leak, was not currently in a role that gave him access to the kind of material he was most upset about, so moved into such a role to get it and leak it.

    There’s a big difference between knowing there’s bad stuff going on in some section of a big organization and being in the midst of it with access to proof of it. It’s not improbable that say, employees at AIG could have heard bad things about the London office, but only employees in that department would know the details of all the CDOs the company was underwriting.

  136. 136.

    Haydnseek

    @Cassidy: @Cassidy: VERY legit, and the scariness is baked right it! You don’t become head of the KGB by making speeches at Kiwanis luncheons and schmoozing the lunch crowd at some coffee shop in Vermont.

  142. 142.

    Cassidy

    @Yatsuno: Hell, it can’t keep its personal life straight. What makes you think it can keep its lies together?

    It just tries so hard, but ultimately fails because it has the imagination of a stick. It’s boring, bitter, and old and it gets more shrill as it is ignored. Then it becomes amusing, bitter, and old. But it has crayons to play with, so there is that.

  144. 144.

    Socoolsofresh

    @Keith G: Ha, you won’t get that discussion here! Just more demonizing the messengers. Or if you’re lucky, ‘I knew the government was spying on me the whole time and its all good! How is this even news?’ So a combo of surveillance is no big deal, yet Snowden is a traitor who should get life!

  146. 146.

    RareSanity

    Can somebody please help?

    I am trying to legitimately understand what a “whistleblower” is. I thought that a whistleblower was someone that has knowledge of illegal or unethical activity occurring, and then reports it.

    Am I incorrect in that definition?

    Is Snowden not a whistleblower because the information he leaked could not legally be classified as illegal or unethical? Is it because there is no way to be a whistleblower, if the information being reported, is classified as “Top Secret”?

    I’m just really confused about the whole thing. I’d love to grab a pitchfork and rail against the party in the wrong, but at this point, I can’t figure out who exactly is in the wrong.

    What I do know is that I don’t like the idea of the NSA using the vacuum cleaner approach to surveillance on U.S. citizens. But, I also don’t want to think that if someone work in/for the government that witnesses illegal/unethical behavior, should be barred from exposing that information, because they will be prosecuted as a traitor.

    It seems to me, that all the government will ever have to do, is classify just about everything as Top Secret, then operate under that guise with impunity.

    The thought of that happening is more of interest to me than the adventures of Mr. Snowden.

  147. 147.

    Cassidy

    @Haydnseek: *Have you seen any sambo matches? They can get intense. It’s very similiar to Japanese Jiu Jitsu but performed by large russians. It’s an interesting sport/ martial art.

    *relevance in that Putin is a Sambo practitioner, as well as Judo, and used to compete

  148. 148.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Keith G:

    So instead of fussing about whether Snowden or Greenwald are purer than Caesar’s wife, let’s keep the discussions focused on privacy, transparency, the true nature of needed surveillance, and where the “”No-Go” boundaries are in our civil liberties.

    Um. We already knew we were being spied on. Ever look at the back of a dollar bill?

  149. 149.

    RareSanity

    @mdblanche:

    I still get upset that Phil Hartman’s wife deprived the world of his talents.

    Lionel Hutz was the perfect vehicle for every lawyer joke ever conceived, and it can never come back. The character was written so well, and performed so well by Hartman, you just can’t replace it.

  150. 150.

    Mnemosyne

    @Jack the Second:

    What’s the big deal with Snowden having a plan to leak from day one? It’s not like Upton Sinclair ever wanted a career in meatpacking.

    (A) The Jungle is fiction, not journalism. It describes real practices but uses fictional characters to tell the story.

    (B) Sinclair (and others like Nellie Bly) wrote the stories themselves. Are you arguing that Snowden was acting as a journalist when he took a job under false pretenses and stole information?

  151. 151.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Awesome, Jack The Second. You pulled ArgueTroll. Now this can only end with McLaren.

  152. 152.

    LAC

    @Cacti: By “played”, you mean Greenwald got caught up in his own reflection and failed to hear Snowden say “I got a job at Booz Allen. I could grab some info. What do you think?” :)

  154. 154.

    Haydnseek

    @Cassidy: Thanks for the info. I didn’t know what Sambo is, outside of the obvious reference. Boxing is one of my favorite sports. I’m still trying to appreciate the new combat sports, with mixed results. The fact that Putin used to participate doesn’t surprise me one bit, as it sounds like an extremely macho thing you do with your shirt off.

  155. 155.

    Mnemosyne

    @RareSanity:

    What I do know is that I don’t like the idea of the NSA using the vacuum cleaner approach to surveillance on U.S. citizens.

    Actually, it’s still not clear that that’s actually what Snowden has information on. What he does have information on — and what he says motivated him to take the job with the NSA to expose — is the US spying on foreign citizens in foreign countries. He still hasn’t been able to back up his claims that there’s been wholesale spying on US citizens.

    This is why China and now Russia are happy to have him tell them everything he knows — he’s giving them information on how we spy against them. They couldn’t care less about the US spying on US citizens.

  156. 156.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @RareSanity: I’m just really confused about the whole thing. I’d love to grab a pitchfork and rail against the party in the wrong, but at this point, I can’t figure out who exactly is in the wrong.

    We have met the enemy and s/he is us. IMHO. From the electorate on up to (with far few exceptions) to the Congress to Obama, we have allowed the security state to metastasize (and to all the fire baggers, have you noticed Obama talking since before this was exposed, about winding down the GWOT, rethinking the PATRIOT Act, etc? No, I didn’t think you did). I go with what Charlie Pierce said a week or so ago, I’m an adult, just tell me what my government is doing in my name. That’s why I think what Snowden did was a good thing, but the way he’s doing it is fucked up. The media shouldn’t be playing Where’s Waldo to the extent that they are, but Snowden and his associates don’t strike me as being disturbed by the attention. Besides getting Congress to do it’s damn job, I’d like to see the media addressing the whole idea of corporate contractors gathering this kind of data, that is also fucked up.

  158. 158.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @Socoolsofresh: No, we know the government is spying. The question is, is it legal and proper. As for legality, as it has been spelled out before, especially on LGF, the Obama administration has been going through the proper steps, which includes going before a judge (actually, Glenn mentions this as well, he just buries it pretty far in his article). As for proper, that’s going to have to be a discussion the people have and get their reps to change, and right now, in the real world, most people aren’t giving a shit, because the responses I tend to hear are of the “yes, we know the government does it,” and “if you haven’t done anything wrong, you have nothing to hide” variety.

    Showden, on the other hand, did something illegal by taking classified information, and then he released them to other governments, ones we generally consider adversaries. Based on one of the definitions of treason I found in Dictionary.com – a violation of allegiance to one’s sovereign or to one’s state – it sounds like he committed treason.

  160. 160.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @RareSanity:

    It seems to me, that all the government will ever have to do, is classify just about everything as Top Secret, then operate under that guise with impunity.

    One of the things the Obama administration did when it took office was make it harder to classify information. Very few people can classify information, and stuff based on that information has to follow strict procedures for further classification.

  161. 161.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @Jack the Second:

    Are you suggesting that Sinclair stole documents from the meat-packing plants in order to write his novel?

    BTW: Sinclair’s primary motive going in was to expose the exploitation of the workers on the floor by the capitalist plant owners. Food safety was a secondary concern. We got food safety regulations out of “The Jungle”, but not the sort of economic reform Sinclair intended to foment.

  162. 162.

    Cassidy

    @Haydnseek: Sambo is a hybrid martial art developed by the Soviet military based mostly in Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and various types of wrestling. Look it up some time. Fedor Emelianenko, the great PRIDE Heavyweight Champion, was a Combat Sambo Champion, as was his brother. That’d be a good place to start on youtube. It’s really cool if you enjoy grappling and submissions.

    I’m a boxing guy, primarily, but love MMA and kickboxing as well. Occassionally, I’ll watch some of the BJJ or grappling tournaments.

  163. 163.

    Todd

    @Mark B.:

    Where does he go now?

    At some point, the Ecuadorian taxpayers are going to have something to say about the presence of Assange. Snowden could still wind up there, and when the regime changes, we can all enjoy the lulz as both of those gasbags get handed over.

    It would be best if it occurred 10 years from now.

  166. 166.

    RareSanity

    @Mnemosyne:

    I thought that the NSA admitted to collecting “meta-data” on everyone all the time. Was I mistaken?

    I know this is where the government likes to walk the legal tightrope by saying, “but we can’t look at content without a warrant”. But, the fact of the matter is that, if you have all of my meta-data, you already know so much about me, that you may never need to actually view content.

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    What you’re describing, is pretty close to what I’m feeling viscerally…it just feels wrong. I just want to be able to square that feeling, with come actual facts, before I just jump in with both feet.

    Even if it is, as John Oliver said on the Daily Show, “Mr. President, no one is saying you broke any laws, we’re just saying it’s a little bit weird you didn’t have to.”

    In that case, I’d have to say that Snowden’s leak, however ham-handed, is a net positive. However, the ham-handed nature in which he’s handled it, may justifiably land him in prison.

  167. 167.

    taylormattd

    Yes, the people who thought Snowden/Greenwald’s “story” is warmed-over, old news are *just* like turn of the previous century whites who executed blacks by hanging them from trees.

  170. 170.

    eemom

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    “the responses I tend to hear are of the “yes, we know the government does it,” and “if you haven’t done anything wrong, you have nothing to hide” variety.”

    Actually, I don’t hear the second much at all — except when Cole gets his firebagger on.

  171. 171.

    Suffern ACE

    @taylormattd: Well, let’s not forget the real victims of the security state. No, not the neighbors of the suspected terrorists who are blown up. Nor the folks in Cuba who will never be released from Gitmo. No. Its the folks who may or may not have had their e-mails collected. That’s practically the holocaust in my book. Worthy of a wall on the mall when all is said and done. We need closure.

  172. 172.

    Jack the Second

    @Mnemosyne:

    (B) Sinclair (and others like Nellie Bly) wrote the stories themselves. Are you arguing that Snowden was acting as a journalist when he took a job under false pretenses and stole information?

    Why not? He was apparently in contact with a journalist (G.G.) before taking the job. “Get a job at a place you suspect wrong-doing, publish article about it” sure as hell sounds like undercover journalism, even if he had someone else write the words up pretty and publish it.

  174. 174.

    RareSanity

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Although that does sound good, the first thing that pops in my head is:

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Who is it that is responsible for making sure that these new policies are followed? I mean it’s not like there is some intra-branch governmental committee that would make/review classifications. These are basically internal “guidelines” that at any time, could be overruled by the President, right?

  176. 176.

    ruemara

    @RareSanity: He’s a leaker, not a whistleblower. There is also no surveillance-at least, from Snowden’s information-of US citizens without the formality of a FISA warrant. There is data mining of social media and internet usage. However, you get that from the various ISPs and social media services you use. This is how they make a profit. The thing to be mad at is the irresponsible nature of private NSA contract firms who hand out security clearances at the drop of a hat, the proof being that Snowden had high clearance after 3 months. You don’t even get health bennies or vacation at 3 months in most jobs in America.

    @Ted & Hellen: I’m being told to grow up by an adult who’s online existence is as a mean girl. About the very adult and difficult issues of international politics and espionage wherein “growing up” would require a rather juvenile binary thought process. I’ve always appreciated irony.

  178. 178.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @Roger Moore: @Suffern ACE:

    I didn’t mean to undermine the main thrust of that comment- that it’s highly questionable that Sinclair stole industry documents (which wouldn’t have been classified by the government anyway) to write his novel (and it should be noted that it was a NOVEL)- with the aside that was the second paragraph. I suppose I’m suffering from a case of irony.

    @Jack the Second:

    And the question remains: What documents did Sinclair, Bly or any of the other progressive muckrakers steal?

  179. 179.

    Nutella

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Snowden, on the other hand, did something illegal by taking classified information, and then he released them to other governments, ones we generally consider adversaries.

    He released it to the public, not to foreign governments. Unless you know more about Snowden’s activities than we do.

  181. 181.

    RareSanity

    @ruemara:

    I was with you up until the last couple of sentences.

    Are you saying that this private corporation, was able to confer upon employees, top level clearances? I thought that the government itself handled the assignment of security clearances, and that you had to be investigated/vetted by the FBI before you were granted such a clearance.

    Or, are you saying that the contractors are negligent in allowing people with insufficient clearance, access information they should not have access to?

    I’d say both were a big problem, but one bigger than the other. If a contractor is allowing people access to information without proper clearance, that can be stopped by starting to randomly audit government contractors, that work with sensitive information.

    If companies can hand out high level security clearances like candy, I’d say that falls into a whole other realm of WTF!?!

  182. 182.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    I know this is where the government likes to walk the legal tightrope by saying, “but we can’t look at content without a warrant”. But, the fact of the matter is that, if you have all of my meta-data, you already know so much about me, that you may never need to actually view content.

    @RareSanity: Working on a digital forensics case where I have not had to read one email to get the plaintiff everything they need.

    The metadata is more than enough.

  183. 183.

    ruemara

    @RareSanity: Yeah, the first is actually true, with the cautionary “as I understand it”. I was reading others talking about the outsourced National Security State and it’s unbelievably stupid what we are doing. I’d like to believe that Snowden was really trying to draw our attention to this. I found a lot of his personal statements a touch jumbled, but this is the big scandal here. The Xe of NS can hire anyone and “vet” them.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130617/OPINION01/306170002

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/15/18940842-growth-of-intel-outsourcing-no-secret-but-now-congress-taking-notice?lite

    Edited to add some linkage

  184. 184.

    Suffern ACE

    @RareSanity: I think that once you have a security clearance from somewhere, it follows you around from place to place. It is not necessary to go through the clearance process each and every time you switch jobs. In fact, having the clearance probably gives a candidate a leg up over other applicants who don’t yet have that clearance.

  185. 185.

    Quicksand

    @Steve in the ATL:

    How does the pie filter work again? this is getting tiresome….

    I have a filter that can work even better than cleek’s. It’s called “don’t read the comments.”

    (And yet here I am.)

  186. 186.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @Nutella:

    Who was the DoD analyst who was prosecuted and found guilty in the mid-80’s under the Espionage Act for releasing intel on some piece of Soviet military equipment to Jane’s Defense? Clinton pardoned him on his (Clinton’s) last day in office.

  187. 187.

    Nutella

    @ruemara:

    He’s a leaker, not a whistleblower. There is also no surveillance-at least, from Snowden’s information-of US citizens without the formality of a FISA warrant.

    And since everything the FISA courts do is secret we still don’t know how much surveillance of US citizens is happening. It’s possible that the surveillance that has been approved by FISA courts is limited and proper and it’s also possible that the surveillance is overbroad and unconstitutional.

  189. 189.

    Jack the Second

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Why is stealing documents (and by “stealing” we mean “copying without authorization”) the Line Which Must Not Be Crossed? If Snowden memorized all of the slide shows, documents, and whatever he claims to have, and typed it back out by hand when he got home, would you feel better? Breaking a non-disclosure agreement is breaking a non-disclosure agreement, no matter how you do it.

    Even if the great undercover journalists of yesteryear didn’t sign actual NDAs, presumably because they weren’t a thing way back when, they were still disclosing what everyone knew they weren’t supposed to.

  190. 190.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    What this winds up being is a searing indictment of Booz Allen’s hiring practices, and demonstrates some sort of serious problem with the vetting process for those who have access to classified information.

    @Villago Delenda Est: I can’t speak to BAH’s hiring practices, but it speaks volumes of the shit job that the investigators – OMB and a smattering of FBI – have been doing with their clearance investigations. Not their fault, since the government is shitcanning everyone in sight and bringing in contractors to do the same work, and those contractors all need to be cleared…and there just aren’t enough investigators to do it properly.

    Only place I can see where BAH fell down was coming across his made-up education credentials and not stopping the hiring process right then and there, but often in the contracting world you’re desperate for someone to fill the slot and you just assume it will work out OK. And, of course, there are no consequences to the large defense contractors if it doesn’t.

  191. 191.

    RareSanity

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    This is why I think, outside of the Snowden/Greenwald circus, what he did was important.

    Love him or hate him, he was the catalyst in getting the government to admit that they were collecting metadata (to my knowledge, they have never admitted this before). Anyone that knows what all can be derived from just metadata, knows that the fact that they collect and store all of this information in a database, for an unlimited amount of time, is terrifying.

    @ruemara:

    I gotcha.

    The first option sounds more feasible than the second.

  193. 193.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @Suffern ACE:

    I think that once you have a security clearance from somewhere, it follows you around from place to place.

    Assuming that to be true, what if the next job gets you a higher clearance, access to more tightly classified material? From personal experience, I have a security clearance- fingerprints and background checks involved- at work (no, I don’t work in national security, it’s county government) that doesn’t allow me the access that some co-workers have.

  194. 194.

    ruemara

    @Nutella: At no point did I ever say this wasn’t the case. But if you are talking legal versus illegal, it is still legal. An unjust law is still the law, it takes just people to change it.

  195. 195.

    RareSanity

    @Suffern ACE:

    I agree that once you have a clearance from the government, it’s like a passport, it’s good until it expires.

    My point was that there is only one way to get governmental security clearances…that is to be vetted by an extensive FBI investigation of you. No person, or company, is able to award you a clearance outside of going through the FBI investigation.

    My confusion comes from wondering if Snowden had a top secret clearance before being hired by the contractor, that’s why he allegedly had access to this classified information. Or, by working for the contractor, was he able to access this information without having sufficient clearance.

  196. 196.

    IowaOldLady

    One person I know has a security clearance to work for a defense contractor. That was done by the FBI, and it’s limited. This person can’t enter the locked areas used by people with higher clearances.

  197. 197.

    Soonergrunt

    @Suffern ACE: This much is true. Even out here in the sticks of Oklahoma, having a security clearance (I got mine through the National Guard initially) will get you in the door to work for DoD (we have 5 military bases and a DoD Field Activity,) or FAA even if you lack the formal certifications for the jobs to which you are applying. Especially if you are a Contractor. The Top Secret clearance costs about $25,000 and takes a year or two to finalize for a civilian.
    It’s cheaper for them to hire cleared people and send them to VoTech for the certifications than to hire certified experienced people and try to get them clearances.

  198. 198.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @Nutella:

    The Espionage Act doesn’t necessarily require spying to have occurred to be invoked, does it?

    Th old saw from one of the World Wars is “Loose lips sink ships”. James Ball (whose byline I’ve seen attached to some of The Graun’s reportage) certainly thinks that Assange’s mishandling of some of Manning’s dump led to some assassination and imprisonment of dissidents in Belarus. Morrison’s leak could well have compromised an intel network inside the Soviet Union. Who knows at this point what repercussions there will be to Snowden’s leakage?

  199. 199.

    gogol's wife

    @tulip:

    I got so caught up in the snark, that I thought the whole story was snark, and was surprised to hear people on CNN (I was visiting someone in the hospital) talking about Snowden being in Moscow. I thought Betty Cracker had made up that part too.

  200. 200.

    RareSanity

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    Assuming that to be true, what if the next job gets you a higher clearance, access to more tightly classified material? From personal experience, I have a security clearance- fingerprints and background checks involved- at work (no, I don’t work in national security, it’s county government) that doesn’t allow me the access that some co-workers have.

    There are different levels of clearance, that require differing levels of vetting.

    For the top levels, Top Secret and above (as I understand it, there are different levels of top secret, but I may be wrong), it requires a year long investigation by the FBI, where they will attempt to follow your parent’s movements up to and including your birth, then follow you family’s movements while you were in their care, then follow all of your movements you’ve made as an adult. They’re going to try and talk to just about everyone you have ever come into contact with over that time.

    I’ve had a few co-workers that got top secret clearances, they said that the FBI came up with stuff that they had long since forgotten about. Also, uncovered several things that they had no knowledge of. Creeped me out…they asked if I wanted to to get one, and that they would pay for it. But since there was no need for me to have it at the time, I said no. I kinda wish I had said yes, but there are (relatively innocent) skeletons in my closet that I didn’t even want to remember, let alone the ones that I can’t remember. LOL

    ETA: My co-workers also said that they would constantly get calls from people saying, “The FBI just came to talk to me about you, is everything OK?”, because the FBI won’t tell them why they’re asking questions about you.

  201. 201.

    Soonergrunt

    @RareSanity: One can access information for which one is not formally cleared (the term is “fully adjudicated”) if one has a temporary clearance that is pending.
    EDIT–for example, I had a secret clearance, and there was some work in a TS-facility that needed doing. The higher-ups signed off on me doing it under limited and controlled circumstances. After I did that work, they told me that they were going to raise my clearance to TS. While that was happening, I had virtually unfettered access. It was about a year later that they told me my TS had been fully adjudicated. I went right to doing what I had been doing for a year, exactly the way I had been doing it.

  202. 202.

    RareSanity

    @Soonergrunt:

    I see.

    My employer sells stuff to the government, and although not required, having a clearance helps to put the people we deal with at ease…we deal with mostly law enforcement agencies.

    I can remember when we were visiting a communications center and after being signed in, our host said, “Okay, if you gentlemen will go through that door, make the first right, then make the first left”. Well, we started walking, and mistakenly started to take a right instead of a left (we were talking and not paying attention), and there was a loud voice that said, “I SAID GO LEFT!”

    I don’t know if I have ever felt so scared I would be shot in an office building in my entire life. LOL…good times.

  203. 203.

    Cacti

    @taylormattd:

    Yes, the people who thought Snowden/Greenwald’s “story” is warmed-over, old news are *just* like turn of the previous century whites who executed blacks by hanging them from trees.

    Don’t you know that middle class white guys have always been the real victims in this country?

    Edward Snowden is like this generation’s MLK, except more handsome and brave.

    And yes, it is a bit gauche for a white guy from a State that sent an ex-Klansman to the US Senate for 9 terms to invoke lynch mobs.

  204. 204.

    rikyrah

    FYI,

    until Snowden is swinging from a tree….

    he’s just a muthafucking traitor on the run.

    personally, I can’t wait for the visual of his ass getting off a plane in DC in shackles and a Hannibal Lecter mask.

  205. 205.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @RareSanity: @Soonergrunt:

    TYVM for the input!

    Soonergrunt: Any idea whether private contractors can get temporary access as easily as those in the military? Or is it too far outside your realm of experience that anything you say would be speculative?

  207. 207.

    Kathleen

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I have a more basic question and I’d appreciate insight from the tech/govt contractor folks here. Snowden was on the job for less than 4 weeks. I am assuming he’s probably a computer guru. Even at that, would he be able to figure out what information to obtain and where to get it in such a short amount of time? Underlying my question is an assumption that it’s possible the information he did leak is from documentation that was not relevant, not current, etc. I’ve performed user support roles on cross functional system development teams in corp America and as smart as people on those teams were, there were lots of moving parts. Very few if any team members had “the big picture” because of the complexity of the project (and, yes, making sure everyone had the latest document and understood the nuances was a challenge). I just wondered if govt system development was like that as well.

  209. 209.

    zombie rotten mcdonald

    @Kathleen:

    The Powerpoint slides he released DOES have the stench of ‘orientation material” about it.

  210. 210.

    ChrisNYC

    @Nutella: He showed a set of documents about US hacking China to the South China Morning Post, a “pro Beijing” paper. And of course, a lot of the issue with China, including the hacking, is the grey area between govt and nominally independent but govt owned/controlled. (Google 88 Queensway Group.)

  211. 211.

    marshall

    This is the best head fake I have heard about in a long time.

    ETA: My co-workers also said that they would constantly get calls from people saying, “The FBI just came to talk to me about you, is everything OK?”, because the FBI won’t tell them why they’re asking questions about you.

    I am not sure what they are talking about. I have had a clearance and (living in DC) have done a number of these clearance interviews for friends and neighbors and they have always explained very clearly what the interviews were for.

  212. 212.

    Keith G

    Some here will find this comforting

    President Barack Obama’s unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider Threat Program, is sweeping in its reach. It has received scant public attention even though it extends beyond the U.S. national security bureaucracies to most federal departments and agencies nationwide, including the Peace Corps, the Social Security Administration and the Education and Agriculture departments. It emphasizes leaks of classified material, but catchall definitions of “insider threat” give agencies latitude to pursue and penalize a range of other conduct

  213. 213.

    Tripod

    Sorry boss, he snookered us…. I’m on a flight to Havana and I can’t come back for three days….

  214. 214.

    Mnemosyne

    @Nutella:

    And since everything the FISA courts do is secret we still don’t know how much surveillance of US citizens is happening.

    By definition, a maximum of 50 percent of the people being surveilled under a FISA warrant could be American citizens — that’s why it’s called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

  216. 216.

    poptartacus

    TPM blows, its like the last commercial break on the Colbert report. He says “we’ll be right back” 3 min of commercials then ” good nite everyone”

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