Pope Francis might be going out at night to minister to the poor. And he might be spouting “pure Marxism”. Both of these reports might be true, but since the latter comes out of Rush Limbaugh’s piehole, I think we’re 1 and 1 here.
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EconWatcher
Rush is going after the Pope? That could get interesting.
hildebrand
I am starting to wonder if the old-time evangelical visceral and vocal hatred of Catholicism won’t start reemerging on a regular basis. It would be delightful for the Republicans to really let their bigot flag fly and alienate yet another large segment of the population.
Punchy
“Frank the Pope” has a ring to it.
Lee
@hildebrand: checking my Facebook feed it is already starting.
Belafon
@hildebrand: Which will once again do wonders with their Latino outreach.
the Conster
I never knew there was such a thing as a Vatican Almoner. I think I’ve paid more attention to news from and about the Vatican in the last three months than in the several decades preceding. I’ve never been Catholic or religious, but if this guy shows how a real practicing Christian behaves, he’s going to end up making all the right enemies and making the bishops look older, crankier and more out of touch than they already are.
hildebrand
@Lee: When one of the wingers denounces somebody as being a Papist, we will have circled back to the bygone age of true anti-catholicism. The way Francis is going, it will be in the next Republican Party platform.
edit: Actually, when a winger denounces Obama as a papist, then we will know.
Cassidy
If the Pope can fire a Bishop why hasn’t he addressed American Catholics? Seriously. Is there an inside baseball thing going on or something?
Kay
Oh, this must be so hard for them. I heard he renounced trickle down! That’s, like, IN THE BIBLE.
I think he should debate Paul Ryan. I skipped watching Paul Ryan speeches after I read his joke of an economic plan (no one who raved about it read it, obviously) but I saw one of his last night (on tv).
He’s unbearable. The mix of sneering at working class people WITH holier-than-thou sanctimony is just insufferable.
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
Rush Limbaugh v. The Pope, War of the Pedophiles
Gene108
How much power does the Pope actually have?
Can he kick out Catholic dioceses and orders that spend more time trying to prevent gay marriage than helping the poor?
As interesting as his comments are, he does not seem to really be shaking things up within the Church hierarchy.
srv
I’m confused. Was Jesus a Republican or a Libertarian?
piratedan
well our neighborhood Pontiff has said all the right things so far, some deeds would be welcome too.
Amir Khalid
@Cassidy:
Did you not see The Godfather Part III, and what happened to Pope John Paul I?
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
@srv: Jesus was a Jeffersonian Republican. That’s why they killed him.
magurakurin
@Amir Khalid: I did see Godfather III but I try to forget it. 1 and 2 are on my all time top ten list though.
hildebrand
@Gene108: I don’t care who the pope is, moving the Roman Catholic church is not an easy task. Not an excuse, at all, just an acknowledgement of the way in which large institutions move at a glacial pace – especially this particular institution. Remember, they didn’t apologize for the whole Galileo business until 1992.
The very fact that Francis has caused this much stir this early is somewhat amazing. But yes, if he really wants to be seen as an agent of change, it will take some very direct action.
srv
@Cassidy: The US Archbishops just had an election for their titular leader and they passed over the resident Opus-Dei wingnut who has been leading the religious grounds attacks on the ACA.
So that might be a sign.
Feudalism Now!
Pope Frankie is putting a little Christ back in Christian. The RC church has a long way to go towards equality and charity to all, but Francis is making more than baby steps. It is nice to here more from the Social Justice wing, rather than the Wall St. fluffing neo-calvinist wing. I mean the whining is delicious from the fluffers, but they are sputtering.
I think we owe a small thank you to Benedict for leaving these oligarchical throwbacks completely sputtering. Justa small thanks, however.
peach flavored shampoo
I figured the Pope is a hell of a chess player, considering that he controls all the bishops.
Boots Day
A philosophical war between Rush and the Pope would be a lot of fun. I am interested to see which side my lifelong devout Catholic father would choose; I suspect that at this point, his Republicanism is deeper than his Catholicism.
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
Luke 18:22
Now when Jesus heard these things the Pope was saying, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Snarki, child of Loki
@EconWatcher: “Rush is going after the Pope? That could get interesting.”
There’s some news reports this morning that Francis worked as a bouncer in his younger days.
So while Rush might have an advantage in size, Francis is sure to have the better moves (especially the tricky Jesuit ‘face smash you didn’t see coming’), and certainly seems in better shape.
So the betting line is “Francis in two rounds”.
geg6
@Gene108:
As anyone can tell you, I am the last person on earth to defend the RC church, but the guy has only been there for, what, six months? His statements have been pretty damn radical for almost any era of the church, but after the last two popes, he is simply a complete 180. It might just be all talk, but I know enough about the church to know that there’s no way he’s going to be able to effect that quick a change in anything other than rhetoric and that just that alone, and still being alive, is a pretty damn amazing feat.
Paul in KY
@the Conster: Hope you are right!
Paul in KY
@Cassidy: All in good time, Cassidy. All in good time…
Jeffro
This pope is THE BOMB (and that’s coming from an atheist!)
Rush’s panic truly does show where the red line is in the GOP, though – above all else, they are about improving the lot of the rich. If half – if even a quarter of – their base every woke up and engaged their brains about what Jesus actually preached, it’s bye-bye Republican Party.
Jeffro
Off to go search for “Atheists 4 Francis” t-shirts…(or, failing that, having some printed up!)
Paul in KY
@peach flavored shampoo: Would be interesting to see a game between me (doofus chess player) & Gary Kasparov, where instead of pawns, I have all bishops (plus the regular 2). Wonder how long it would take him to beat me?
Jeffro
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/15/atheists-pope-francis-obama-liberal-voice-change
Belafon
@Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader: Jesus really hates it when people misquote him on the internet.
Also, how would this work? “Papal garage sale! it all has to go! Vatican city for sale! Pennies on the dollar.” How long do you think he would live? It would probably be the first impeachment and conviction of a sitting Pope.
It would be the equivalent of the US president going “Today, I am bringing home all our troops, and putting all our ships in port. The US military is being shut down. Tomorrow morning, the gates to all bases will be locked.”
RaflW
@EconWatcher:
Well, why not. As with any modern conservative/grifter, you milk your allies when they say the right things (ie: the last two Popes) and denounce them the moment they say something inconvenient.
One must never, never question one’s assumptions, except when the result is to move right (or to whip out the checkbook again).
schrodinger's cat
If you want to know what the Scalia wing of Catholics think read The Thinking Housewife. I am not sure what proportion of Catholics in the US she represents.
Frankensteinbeck
@Jeffro:
I disagree. Above all else, they are about hate, which makes fucking over the poor a close second to putting negros back in their place. It’s not Francis’s attacks on the rich that make them spew bile, it’s his kindness to the poor.
EDIT – @Belafon:
Doesn’t he live much more frugally than other popes? I thought I heard that was one of the right wing complaints. Francis tries to play down the mansions and gold stuff.
Gex
Here’s what Frankie hasn’t changed:
Bitches can still just STFU and have that baby they don’t want. In fact, they’re going after birth control, not just abortion.
Gays can have our lives “not interfered with” so long as you consider not being subject to the same rule of law that straight people live under being not interfered with. And so long as you consider expecting celibacy or ex-gaying ourselves to be a reasonable attitude for the Church to have towards us. I don’t know how he expects zero change in attitude towards homosexuality to result in a change in attitude towards gays.
And he has all the prayers in the world for the abused children of the Church. Isn’t that what he offered the other day? Prayers. That’s a piss poor offering so long as the Church’s policies still encourage them to hide, shuffle around, bribe, and defend pedophiles. We’ll know they are serious about addressing this problem when they offer up actual policy changes, such as calling the authorities. No more paying them to leave the priesthood so that their pedophilia can continue, just not on their watch. A policy of contacting the authorities is about a decade overdue and still it is not forthcoming.
It’s nice that the Church is reemphasizing economic justice. I still can’t stop seeing this as more of his PR speak. After all, the nice things he got praised for saying about atheists and gays represented absolutely zero change in dogma and attitude so I will wait until I see more from the RC on this front. A lot of what Frankie has said so far seems PR firm approved but hasn’t necessarily meant anything. So I’m going to wait and see how dedicated the Church is to this cause. Because we have seen first hand what the Church’s dedication to a cause looks like. They can mobilize like nobody’s business. Like “get things put on ballots to bypass an unwilling legislature” kind of mobilization.
Let’s see them spend the 10’s or 100’s of billions on political campaigns to help the poor like they have spent on campaigns to keep gays and women down.
Words are cheap when you’ve already demonstrated that you can do so much more.
Words about economics, like the prayers for the child victims, are easy and cheap. I’m waiting to see what the Church does.
RaflW
@geg6:
My former-Catholic BF and I were chatting with his still-Catholic (and progressive) mom the other day. Topic: the need for Francis to have a food taster. We were only 1/2 in jest.
Chyron HR
Pick a side and stick with it, dipshits.
aimai
@the Conster: Well, the Bishops are past masters at taking credit for the good stuff and sloughing off the bad. Cardinal Dolan, one of the most evil people around, has turned on a dime now that he finds that New Pope is at least good for propaganda. TPM had a brief clip of an interview with him and he is taking full credit for “his vote” for this Pope and describes people coming up to him on the street to thank him. As long as the Pope confines himself to exhortations and doesn’t do any actual Catholic style legislatin’ from the papal chair–like ordering Dolan to stop interfereing with the ACA or to sever ties with the Republican party, Dolan and the Bishops will just publicly say they are doing what the Pope wants and go on doing their old dirty work. Its the hommage vice pays to virtue: hypocrisy. And the Church hierarchy are past masters of it.
cmorenc
The current GOP tack is to attempt to distract US Catholics from the Pope’s socio-economic pronouncements with a bogus claim of OBAMA ADMINISTRATON IS CLOSING US EMBASSY TO THE VATICAN! SHOWING DELIBERATE DISRESPECT TO THE CHURCH AND POPE! Never mind that what’s actually happening is something that was originally proposed during the George W. Bush administration, i.e. moving the embassy to a secure compound that also contains the US embassy to Italy, and is actually a tenth of a mile closer to the Vatican residence/offices of the pope than the old embassy. And if the Obama administration didn’t move the embassy to somewhere more secure, and some sort of terrorist attack was mounted against it, the GOP would be screaming “Bengazi!-v2.0!”
Glidwrith
@srv: Details? Link please?
Feudalism Now!
@Belafon: The Vatican could sell off a lot of its holdings to help the poor and struggling of the faithful without liquidating the Holy See.
That said, didn’t Francis remove the Bishop of Bling and put his residence up to be converted to a soup kitchen? There has been a bit of movement towards action, not just words.
Jennifer
I love this new pope. Whether he can really change the church or not remains to be seen, but as for those sniping about how he needs to sell off the Vatican, well, it’s not his to sell for one thing and for another, he is not availing himself of all the luxury of the office, as did his predecessor. I just gotta figure that any pope that pisses off Rush Limbaugh is on the right path.
Belafon
@Gex:
Which is why we’re talking about him sneaking out at night.
Betty Cracker
@schrodinger’s cat: Wow, she is seriously nuts!
I’m another atheist fan of this pope. Regarding the resurrection of evangelical hostility toward Catholics, that would indeed be an interesting development (and also the death knell of the GOP), but I don’t see it happening. The fetus fetishists, misogynists and homophobes that make up wingnut Catholicism seem willing to ignore, misinterpret or delegitimize Pope Francis.
soonergrunt
As I’ve said before, the Pope has to mix policy and doctrine with words before I’ll set foot back in the Church, but he’s making the right noises.
It will take a while. Vatican II took years of preparation, and it was (and to a great extent, still is) hated by the conservatives in the Church.
He can make a good start by retiring Cardinal Dolan, though.
El Cid
@Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader: All the parts of the Bible where Jesus says things about giving away all you have and helping the poor are merely metaporical and we shouldnt think about them too much, but the parts where Jesus sounds like he’s advocating business savvy, why, it’s a direct commandment from God.
Frankensteinbeck
@Chyron HR:
They have. It’s the side of hate. They will fight fanatically for the Catholic Church’s right to make women suffer and die, and fight fanatically against the Catholic Church’s message of comforting the poor. It’s entirely consistent. They just can’t say it out loud. Oh, and they’re even more cruel because they resent not being able to come out and say it, and instead having to pretend they’re defending faith or saving babies in order to feel self-righteous.
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
@Belafon: Yeah, funny how it’s misquoting Jesus to point out that the RCC isn’t operating in compliance with the directives of Jesus.
Meanwhile, something that isn’t even in the Bible, the forbidding of abortion, the RCC is obsessed with.
RaflW
In seriousness, though, in my 7 years of freedom to marry work in Minnesota I’ve gotten to know some really wonderful and very progressive Catholics. I’m thinking they’re pretty inspired by Francis.
This is a group of folks who’ve been dispirited since Reagan, when it comes to faith works actually helping the poor and marginalized. They’ve been needing a spiritual boost to keep on with the essential work. So even if Francis is mostly offering window-dressing, it’s likely to be motivating US progressive Catholics.
And if it infuriates Rush, that’s a plus. I noticed that Bobo was wishing for Francis to be some Burkean twit on NPR last Friday. Hahah. And I gather Chunky Bobo had a big sad in the Times on Sunday. Double hah. (See, I just can’t stay serious very long).
RobNYNY1957
I don’t think the Pope is really saying much that is new. The RCC has long recognized the right of labor to organize, the right to basic education and health care. This was one the problems with Rick Santorum’s presidential campaign — he’s devoutly Catholic except he doesn’t believe a lot of Catholic doctrine. He used to stammer a lot when when asked to explain the discrepancy between what he believes and what the Catholic god believes.
maya
Jesus was a devout free market capitalist. Did you never hear of his power-point presentation on the mount? There he showed the multitude of rubes assembled (through innovative camel eye-lid flyers attached in the Wailing-Wall-Mart parking lot), with the help of loaves and fishes visual aids, how trickle-down theory really works. It was then, as it is now, wrought about through miraculous means. Unbelievers.
beergoggles
Has anyone noticed the actual actions of the church changing despite all this yammering? Cuz I still keep hearing about catholic schools firing teachers for marrying their same-gender spouse and catholic officials exorcising gay marriage from a state and other stupid shit.
He’s just there for the PR.
eric
We will know there is real change when the Pope starts beating the Bishops.
Belafon
@Feudalism Now!: I’ll give you that. And I think at some time in the future, Francis could probably get some of the stuff sold off. But there’s a reason we all keep talking about food tasters for the Pope: The church is like a man how has spent most of his adult life sitting on a couch. You don’t just go from sitting on the couch to running in the marathon the next day – or at least I don’t. It takes a lot of small steps in the right direction to build the momentum toward the ultimate goal.
Doesn’t this all sound like the same conversation we’ve had about Obama? I can’t wait for the Papal drones. These spray holy water wherever the Pope deems necessary, and instantly convert you into a Catholic.
Jeffro
@Frankensteinbeck:It’s not Francis’s attacks on the rich that make them spew bile, it’s his kindness to the poor.
That’s not two sides of the same thing? Oookay. Easing the plight of the poor takes resources of some kind, from somewhere…
Jay C
@Cassidy:
Assuming you mean “the American Catholic hierarchy” I think he already has. Maybe not in-your-face directly, and maybe not as bluntly as most blog-commenters would like; but I think Pope Frankie has sent a few unmistakable shots across the Bishops’ bows: that he would prefer the American hierarchy to recall that the RCC is a religious organization, not a Republican PAC…..
scav
Entirely not surprized that there are a clump of ‘mercan Catholics who will insist on all things religious being served their way and chop chop! foreigner! Serve it Faster! No way are they going to abandon the warm fuzzy silken comfort of their sacral justification of being economic and physical shit to actual people. Should be fun to watch as we already know they can get irritated even with words that are not sufficiently deferential to their spar-spangled halo.
PJ
@hildebrand: It will be an interesting contrast to the progressive anti-Catholic bigotry regularly given vent here.
GregB
Jesus was a Libertarian. He knocked over the money changers’ tables and then went and invested heavily in bitcoins. Ephesians 7:11
Fuzzy
I want a verbal cage match between Rush and Frannie. I will take all bets on the Pope because Rush’s audience is miniscule by comparison. IQ wise too.
Belafon
@Jeffro: They are if you think your job is to raise the poor up out of their condition. But not even Jesus did that. Now, turning your back on the rich to pray and eat with the poor, that will piss the rich off. Probably get you stuck up on a cross for it.
As for selling all of the stuff the Vatican owns, who here thinks that it would actually end poverty? It would be a blip, an evening meal for all of them, and then it would be gone.
Who thinks that it would be far better for someone in the position of the Pope to convince the leaders of major countries that they need to take care of the poor, that things like capitalism are meant to serve the interests of all humans, not make a few people rich?
I’ll put in the normal progressive caveat that I know that he’s not perfect, and that he’s leading a group that has a lot of things to answer for. But he’s far, far better than recent alternatives.
Feudalism Now!
@Jeffro: The thing is you can tut-tut the rich for excess, but when you actually start helping the poor, it prompts more action. Words can incite, but relieving some of the stress of survival gives people time to think and breath and that is dangerous for the Status Quo.
Belafon
@GregB: Jesus wept for the low, low prices at Wal-Mart. John 11:35.
scav
ahh, another clump of believers. Because all criticism of the hierarchy must cease as there are some nice underlings who, damn the world, must not be bothered in their beautiful minds. Works better if the hierarchy involved isn’t actively harming and killing people. But, it’s all about your team and your hurt feelings.
Frankensteinbeck
@Jeffro:
No, they’re not. The rich have been assholish enough for the last forty years the hate-addict base supported them, but now the base needs a bigger fix. Push came to shove, and the Teabaggers voted to destroy the government and go into default, two policies which seriously fuck over the rich as well as the poor.
mai naem
The reichwingers have gotten used to having reichwing popes. They’re just worried that Frank is from that awful awful “Marxist” liberation theology wing of the Catholic church. Fuck ’em.
I am sick and tired of right wing whining. Seriously, most of this shit they are bitching about is shit that are consequences of their fcuking actions. Bill DeBlasio got elected because these Republican fcukers can never find enough ways to fcuk regular workers. Obamacare got passed because they never gave a shit about people not having insurance and going broke because of medical bills. Reid went nukular because they wouldn’t even let Obama fill routine executive appoointments, forget the judges. The GOP just needs to change their name to Ben Dover.
Belafon
@scav: This atheist would love to know where this magical fairy place you obviously believe exists – where there are pure institutions led by pure infallible people – is so that I can move there.
rea
@Paul in KY: Kasparov has been retired for a while, but the present world champion can do just fine without bishops:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1451764
scav
@Belafon: I’ve never found it. But there always seem to be tender tender souls that insist I give due deference to their cherished mirages.
Feudalism Now!
@Belafon: Clap louder! Bully pulpit! Purity ponies for all!
Privileged bullshit. If they aren’t doing 100% what we want they are just PR. Better to haver Reichpope Benedict actively screwing the poor and reversing Vatican II while raiding the coffers, than a figurehead who offers mere words. Another generation of suffering and then we will have them right where we want them … And be just as ineffective.
Celebrate the good being done. Push to do more is better than belittle the good and dismiss the impure.
MattF
Rush has a pretty direct line into the Winger psyche, so his panic about Francis is a big deal. Also, I agree with what was said upthread about how anti-Francis rhetoric from the right is not going to go over real well with Latinos. Remember where Francis came from.
negative 1
@RaflW: I’m glad. I’ve always identified with the Christian Socialism movement, but it’s getting lonely.
Roger Moore
@Chyron HR:
They’re on the side of the Republicans, which seems to mean the side of the American Bishops but not the Pope.
Cassidy
@Paul in KY: I hope so, and maybe this is “exceptional” of me, how much good can he accomplish if he doesn’t publicly address the American Catholic hierarchy?
Cacti
Again, wake me when he does anything meaningful to rein in the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Mike in NC
So has Pope Francis been linked to the bogus “War on Christmas” yet? Only three weeks for the wingnuts to get that talking point out in the media, who’ll be only too happy to play along.
Paula
@PJ:
I wouldn’t call it bigotry.
It’s simple-mindedness in regards to religion. Which, among other things, is what makes outreach to groups like the working class and people of color at all income levels so difficult for those who identify as progressive.
Lurking Buffoon
I for one will not be satisfied with anything Pope Hippy does unless he fights crime with the Dalai Lama. As a superhero. If he’s not driving the Pope-mobile to prevent a bank robbery, it’s all an act.
Cacti
@Mike in NC:
That would be funny, as Christmas was more or less a Catholic invention that co-opted that much older pagan solstice festivals.
The Puritans actually banned Christmas celebrations for being “Papist idolatry”.
slippy
Well, I like that he’s pissing off right-wingers by talking about being a decent human being to the less-fortunate. Whether he himself is making the entire church turn around on a dime is not nearly as interesting as his sudden change in the tone of the conversation.
And the idea of someone as insignificant as Limbaugh thinking he can just mansplain a Pope out of the way is hysterical. He really has no idea how actually irrelevant he is, does he?
Paula
Yeah, I wouldn’t get too excited yet. Remember when the Church straight up opposed the invasion of Iraq in 2003? Yeah, most American Catholics don’t either.
So … yeah, Francis making salient economic arguments. OK. Leave off the slut-shaming and the gay-bashing for a bit. Cool. Wake me when he starts telling his bishops in the developing world to shut it with the anti-birth control speeches and starts telling them to hand out condoms as part of church ministry.
Xecky Gilchrist
So when are the American bishops going to deny the Pope Communion?
? Martin
A little sectarian upheaval in the conservative community of this country would be very welcome. Catholics are still the largest religious subset in the US. Nice to see that the GOP continues to piss off the largest voting blocks.
Cacti
@slippy:
The evangelical/conservative Catholic political alliance was always a marriage of convenience. The former never stopped teaching that the RCC is the great scarlet whore of babylon.
Joe Buck
Meanwhile, the Catholic League, the alleged defender of the faith, instead of attacking Limbaugh for claiming the Pope is spouting “pure Marxism”, attacks the “bogus Catholic entity” that attacked “Rush”.
That’s because the Catholic League isn’t a pro-Catholic organization, but a part of the right wing infrastructure that tries to convince Catholics to vote GOP.
Cacti
@Paula:
Hugging cripples totally balances out his subordinates litigating against birth control as part of health insurance coverage.
Cacti
@? Martin:
I get a little tired of this particular trope, as it’s often used as justification for codifying Catholic dogma into laws of general application.
3 of every 4 Americans are non-Catholic.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@soonergrunt:
John XXIII didn’t convene the council that came up with Vatican II until he’d been Pope for four years. So, yes, I’m still not darkening the door of any RCC parish any time soon, but I will be watching Francis’ future career with considerable interest, as Bertie Wooster used to say.
@Cassidy:
He probably wouldn’t address them publicly — he’s their boss. There would be a closed-door meeting at the Vatican with “productive discussions,” and the US bishops would suddenly stop using a bunch of talking points. There might be a few resignations due to “health,” but there would be no public scolding. The Pope is their friggin’ boss, so it’s not like the president lecturing a co-equal branch of government like Congress.
Cervantes
@Paula: It’s simple-mindedness in regards to religion.
What is?
gelfling545
@hildebrand: I am expecting this. The “papists” were much disliked by the KKK and their ilk. Since all that seems to be coming around again Pope Francis will likely bring them out of the woodwork.
Paula
@Cervantes:
“The progressive anti-Catholic bigotry regularly given vent here.”
The original comment is linked.
? Martin
@Cacti:
And 3 out of 4 Americans are non-Latino. So, fuck immigration reform, amirite?
If you want to attack the trope when I’m using it to justify codifying Catholic dogma into law, then by all means – its fair game to point out that they’re a minority population. But I wasn’t doing that. I was pointing out that the GOP pissing off the largest unified religious population in the US is fucking stupid. Dismissing all minority populations as being politically unimportant is an curious tactic from a liberal.
Belafon
You know what I really like about this gesture by the Pope: He’s doing something that the leaders of lots of groups in the US, especially Christian groups, would never do. They would never get their hands dirty by touching the poor.
I’m not saying every group and every Minister is like that, there are plenty of good examples I am sure. But they’re not of the stature of the Pope.
Cassidy
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): But the sacking of the Bling Bishop was not private. That’s why I’m, genuinely, confused. He’s shown on several occasions that he doesn’t mind publicly engaging the bullshit and good on him for doing it.
Roger Moore
@RobNYNY1957:
No, very little of it is new, but the emphasis is different. Francis has spent a lot of time talking about the good things the Church does and trying to make it clear that its primary business is serving its parishioners. That’s not as good as changing doctrine to remove the awful parts, but it’s still a fair sight better than continuing to talk primarily about hating gays and shaming sluts.
Cacti
@? Martin:
The largest unified religious population?
50% of the Catholic vote went for Obama, 48% for Romney.
59% of the non-hispanic white Catholic vote went for Romney, 75% of the hispanic Catholic vote went for Obama.
Sounds like they split right along the same ethnic and political lines as the rest of the country.
fuckwit
@Punchy: we’ve already had one. last name was simatra.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@? Martin:
And the funny thing is that there’s all sorts of Catholic dogma that Cacti and others want codified into law. You know, all the stuff about helping the poor.
fuckwit
@gelfling545: because they were immigrants. it was earlyndog whistles
hoodie
The new pope already seems to be having some marginal effects in our parish, e.g., the martinet rector who used to deliver orgiastic homilies on the glory of the magisterium and managed to piss off most of the lay workers was canned and they brought back some of the more liberal interpretations of the liturgy, particularly those directed to catholics of African American heritage. I suspect most of the bishops are very isolated, but they are ambitious politicians at base and eventually can detect which way the wind blows, and it’s blowing in a different direction from the Vatican these days. I think years of conservative rule and their own isolation had conditioned a lot of them into thinking the body of the church was more conservative than it really is (analogous to the way media types think America is a center right nation because of their inside the beltway blindness). The positive reaction to Francis may have changed that perception because he comes across as at least understanding that people have real problems that are not readily amenable to ivory tower doctrine.
fuckwit
@Cacti: i’ll drink to that
Cacti
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Actually, most of our social safety net programs were put in place by FDR, a yankee WASP, and LBJ, a southern evangelical. The countries with the strongest social welfare programs in the world are all officially Lutheran.
But the RCC is the institution with all the answers for everyone. Just ask them.
srv
@Glidwrith:
Archbishop election:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/12/louisville-archbishop-wins-election-catholic-group/?page=all
fuckwit
@Paula: it’s anti religious atheism. i can’t stand religion and i think it is a toxic force, particularly in the usa in my lifetime. but, yeah, progressives used to be religious. the civil rights movement was driven by black churches and aided by jewish synagogues. many progressives of 100 years ago were very religiois, remember william jennings bryan was the elizabeth warren if his day, and he argued against evolution in the scopes trial.
burnspbesq
@Cassidy:
Any new Pope, by definition, has a full plate and finite bandwidth, and it’s really not all that surprising that the problems of the Church in the USA aren’t seen as a top priority.
Cut the guy some slack. He’ll get to it soon enough.
burnspbesq
@Cacti:
Which of “his subordinates” are parties to any of the cases that are currently pending in the Supreme Court?
Cacti
@burnspbesq:
Cue our resident RCC quisling.
sparrow
@Boots Day: Yup. The true tribal affiliation is with the teapublicans. Soon religion will become a “private matter” for them.
I went to a catholic school in a red state and while stupid sanctimonious crap regularly winds up on my facebook feed, it is dwarfed by the craptons of political conservative hate they spew daily, including lots of racist stuff. I’m looking forward to seeing which of them will openly bitch about the pope first.
Cacti
@burnspbesq:
And too cute by half as always.
Here’s what your fellow faithful have been up to.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Cacti:
So? That doesn’t change the fact that much of it is also Catholic dogma. Which you want codified in law. My point had nothing to do with the effectiveness of the Church’s lobbying. It involves pointing out that you are extremely selective as to when you think that it is impermissible to legislate religious morality.
scav
Rush Revere™®©† Visits Bibleland™®©† and Saves Christmas™®©† from The Long-Haired Hippy, his Posse of Twelve Cultists and Beskirted Papist Followers and Personally Delivers Brand-Name Toys to All Right-Thinking Tots. Appearing in Suitable Stores post haste!
Satan
@Chyron HR:
They already did.
danielx
@sparrow:
Already been done, and behind door number one is Jabba the Hut…er, Rush Limbaugh. Now it’s just a race to see who can be number two.
Pope Francis may or may not act in accordance with his written and spoken words, but he’s sure as shit acquiring the right enemies.
Mnemosyne
@Gex:
The Roman Catholic Church is not going to bless marriages of gay and lesbian people for at least another 50 years, if not 100. But if the Pope can get the USCCB to STFU and stop putting money into anti-gay-marriage laws, then I don’t think official Church recognition really matters.
Jebediah, RBG
@Snarki, child of Loki:
Fuck it, I got $100 that says Frankie in one. Rush will be winded just getting out of his corner. Fitness is not his forte.
gvg
Rush/evangelicals against the Pope illustrates why the truly religious should be for separation of church and state. The problem of the state supporting a certain religious view is the question of whose religious view. The Christian world is not unified and significant portions of the founding immigrants were Christians fleeing other Christians in governments.
I’m an atheist who is very cynical about the Catholic church and any pope but I do wonder how on earth the christian charity I grew up with has changed into something that really seems to be the oppisite of the message of Christ. They can’t see themselves at all. It’s a good thing I actually know a few actual nice Christians who do things like go to Missisppi after Katrina and shovel toxic smelly mud out of elderly peoples homes then come back and tell stories that make it sound funny that the mud ate through rubber gloves at a rate of a new pair a day….People like that don’t scream loud BS at everyone for years though. If you don’t happen to know them, you never hear.
Mnemosyne
@Cassidy:
Firing someone is never private, so I guess I’m confused about why you’re confused. Francis won’t fire all of the USCCB members, but they will tow whatever line he gives them or resign.
(And, yes, I really do mean “tow the line,” as in they will pick up what he says and move it along.)
handsmile
Contra to srv’s optimism above (#18) and the Washington Times (!) link provided to affirm it (#103), it would appear that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, under its newly-elected leader Archbishop Joseph Kurtz, will continue to meddle in certain US domestic policies:
“[Kurtz] noted that soon after he was elected, the conference referred to the pope’s own words on the importance of religious freedom in decrying the federal government’s requirement for health-insurance providers to cover abortions and contraceptives over religious objections.
“That’s a united message,” the archbishop said.
On Tuesday, the conference said it welcomed the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision to hear arguments on the matter, saying the review “highlights the importance of this conflict between the federal government and people seeking to practice their faith in daily life.”
This WSJ link offers a more reassuring opinion that Archbishop Kurtz advocates “traditional church positions on hot-button issues.”
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303332904579224422143509520
burnspbesq
@Cacti:
Got it. When you have no answer, change the subject.
A Ghost To Most
@burnspbesq: That would be Fat Tony Scalia.
burnspbesq
@Cacti:
You might want to think about refraining from using words whose meanings you don’t understand (like, say, “subordinate.”). Kinda makes you look stupid.
Ben Cisco
@Mike in NC: Dunno about the Pope, but Santa has weighed in.
Another Holocene Human
@RobNYNY1957:
LOLOLOL, what a joke. The priests came over from Europe with an agenda to keep labor in line. In the early days of organizing, priests were no more trustworthy than cops.
Yes, the parish priests took the side of the peasants in the French Revolution, and yes, the Church, or certain factions of it, backed labor organizing in the 20th Century, AFTER WWI. Funny how this coincides with the rise of the CPA and a huge movement of Wobblies into the CPA. The RCC was really freaked out by the Commies so they had to provide an alternative!
A bunch of nuns helped found the CIW–Coalition of Immokalee Workers–a quasi union like organization which has secured working conditions reform and wage increases for tomato pickers in Florida (some of whom were being held in conditions of slavery–and don’t take my word for it, ask the Federal prosecutors who pursued 7 cases in Florida since the 1990s)–and we all know how much support the nuns were getting from Pope Palpatine. Hell, he launched his first volley against American nuns before JPII was even dead!
I’ve actually been surprised at Francis. He’s a Jesuit, and they can be arrogant, not to mention hypocritical fucks. I guess he was always a closet Franciscan, though. Now Franciscans I can respect. Simple habit, simple message. Franciscans have churches in major cities and they were the only ones to welcome gays in the 1980s within RCC walls. Forget about the parish churches. They also used to found charity hospitals and shit in the Middle Ages, fearlessly taking on what civil authorities both wouldn’t and couldn’t.
*No approval of contemporary Catholic hospitals express or implied.
kc
They must really hate Bing Crosby.
Another Holocene Human
Catholic Workers is still around but kinda runs on a shoestring. I know they were up protesting in Chicago six months ago or whenever that was.
I went to them about a homeless young lady I knew and they really couldn’t provide any assistance. Let’s just say the Anglicans did more.
If I were that age and knew what i know now, I would definitely be a part of SDS. Not Catholic Worker. SDS is connected to way more organizations, is more radical, and gets more done. It also doesn’t have this creepy youth church group vibe.
Lurking Canadian
@Roger Moore: this is how it looks to me. Nothing I’ve heard from him is “new” in the sense of revolutionary doctrine. It’s a change of emphasis.
I don’t think, for example, that priests will start handing out condoms or presiding over gay marriages. But getting out of the way of secular authorities trying to do those things would be a big, big improvement.
Another Holocene Human
@Jeffro: You’re missing the point. The poor and the ill and the needy and the abandoned physically disgust them. When Francis touches them–and he makes a point to touch them–they are enraged.
Way worse than lobbing a few rhetorical bones about commercialism gone awry. They say the same shit themselves in quiet rooms.
West of the Cascades
@Cacti: approaching the Godwin event horizon in 3, 2, …
Sasha
Don’t lighten up, Francis.
Sasha
@geg6:
Francis truly is a miracle worker. ;)
Another Holocene Human
The USCCB used to be more liberal than the Pope. Of course, that was decades ago. The first volley against the US Bishops was Benedict, then Ratzinger’s “Halloween letter” which attacked the US College of Bishops’ statement (which was, by the terms of the time, moderate on gays, as in, should they all be excommunicated, and they said no) on the gay question and labeled homosexuals as “objectively disordered”.
Far from being traditional, this is a new term that the then-head of the Inquisition (“Office of the Doctrine of the Faith”) thunk up one day. Just so you understand the context.
Ratzinger stepped it up in the 1990s and the purge was on. He went after US Catholic colleges, got Mary Daly fired, and basically gave the cons the upper hand. Then the sex scandal blew wide open and the cons basically cornered and pushed out the liberals (and of course there was attrition, as they aged out and died). To cap it off, Benedict as pope went on an election spree packing the US college of bishops with right wing “moral” crusaders, like Dolan, who spent the Bush years not protesting unjust wars but finding new ways to get the US government to force local governments to subsidize his failing parish schools (whose income and capital had been savaged by the child-rape scandal and lawsuits).
Jeffro
@Feudalism Now!: Exactly what I’m sayin’, and explains Limbaugh’s losing it entirely.
Jeffro
@MattF:
Yeeeup. Him and Rove, although sometimes in different ways. Depending on the issue, Rush gives away the teabaggers’ deepest fears or the 1%’s. Rove is all about protecting/advancing the 1%. Prime example was his obvious disgust at the way the Tea Party Republicans won’t embrace immigration reform – they don’t have to mean it much, but he knows they can’t win nationally without it.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: Went to the site. Wow, I think she’s going to open a fatwa on Hippy Pope Francis.
Paul in KY
@Fuzzy: Francis is a highly trained jesuit. He’d wipe the floor with Rush.
Paul in KY
@rea: That site is blocked for me. Was wondering how I would do with 10 bishops (while he or Carlsson or Anand has regular setup).
I’m 100% sure they would still end up beating me.
Paul in KY
@Cassidy: He doesn’t have to ‘publically’ address them. He can have internal meetings where he lays down the law & then you see the results.
Jeffro
@Another Holocene Human: Don’t be ridiculous – I’m sure it does disgust them, I’m not missing that ‘point’. I’m making mine.
The Catholic church’s various doctrines serve the right pretty well, with all of their activists’ time/energy/$$$ (particularly on the issue of abortion) working in favor of the GOP. If the focus shifts to economic justice and Jesus’ true teachings, there’s a danger that those religious activists (and everyone else, frankly) will see the hypocrisy inherent in today’s GOP – that no matter what, the interests of the rich are being served at the expense of the rest. That the activists are being used a la “What’s the Matter With Kansas?”
That is the danger. Rush is rich as heck but he’s fully aware he’s outnumbered. The GOP’s policies are increasing the number of people who are less well off at the same time that they need to deceive those same people. Francis is starting to pull some of that wool back from people’s eyes.
Mnemosyne
@handsmile:
Don’t be surprised to see that position suddenly change, especially if Kurtz takes a trip to Rome beforehand. And then, being the RCC, they’ll claim that it was their position all along that healthcare is more important than contraception. There’s already a split between American and European/Australian fundamentalists on universal healthcare, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Pope pulls the US bishops into line.
Mnemosyne
@Another Holocene Human:
The other problem is that a lot of the more theologically liberal cardinals (like Los Angeles’ Roger Mahony, who was big in the Sanctuary movement of the 1980s and was always vocal about immigrant rights) were also covering for pedophiles, so it was easy to get rid of them and replace them with more conservative bishops once the scandals broke.
Paul in KY
@gvg: They can see themselves. They never liked the ‘charity’ & ‘helping poor’ part of Christianity. So, they are working to have it removed.
That’s the American Way ™!
Cervantes
@Paula: I know the original comment was linked. I read it before asking the question.
I still do not know what the X is that is both (Y) “the progressive anti-Catholic bigotry regularly given vent here” and (Z) “simple-mindedness in regards to religion.”
In other words: show me some Y (i.e., X being instances of Y); and then show me how X or Y equals Z.
Or you could, you know, not bother. (I was just letting you know that I could not follow your assertions.)
Cervantes
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
You’re missing the point and therefore not making much of an argument. If I (1) support feeding the poor, I may do so with absolutely no reference to (or reverence for) “Catholic dogma.” If I also (2) reject restrictions on abortion, I may do so again with absolutely no reference to “Catholic dogma.” I can hold both positions (1) and (2) while at the same time holding that (3) it is “impermissible to legislate religious morality.” There is no hypocrisy or selective enforcement involved.
Put another way: suppose there were a church whose dogma included (4) brushing one’s teeth; and (5) beating one’s wife every Friday. I could support (4) and reject (5) both while never even having heard of this church — and there’d be nothing “extremely selective” about my position.
danielx
@Another Holocene Human:
Got that right. You may or may not have heard the one about the Jesuit who was asked how he could reconcile the two concepts of god’s mercy and infant damnation. His response?
The Almighty is bound to do things in His public capacity which in His personal and private capacity He deplores.
Which is a classic Jesuit comeback, and one of which I’ve heard variations many times. I had the dubious pleasure of attending what was at the time an all male Jesuit prep school (as a non-Catholic), and I learned very quickly there was no arguing with the pious bastards – they would cut you to pieces in verbal discussion and convince you that whatever depravity you were arguing against was really all for your own good…while laughing up a tailored sleeve the whole time. And yes, I’m reasonably sure there was some abuse going on, although I can’t say it for certain – as a non-Catholic (Episcopalian variety) I was immune to that sort of thing. Episcopalians don’t do guilt, and I would have screamed my head off at the first untoward contact.
To give them their due, I did receive a first class education and was much better prepared for college than many of my peers.
J R in WV
@Cervantes: :
How is it bigotry to be pointing out the hyprocricy and evil undertaken by the owners of the RCC?
‘Cause the truth is that lots of the horror in this world is the direct responsibility of the management of the RCC, for any given period of time and space selected.
Thinking of those Latin American women kept in prison until they delivered little babies, which were taken and given to right wing murder squad leaders (all of whom were Catholic), after which their mothers were tortured to death. Just for example number one.
The truth isn’t bigotry, dude, no matter how ugly the truth is.
Cacti
@burnspbesq:
Sorry if it burns you burnsie, but they recognize the primacy of the same roman religious emperor that you do.
Figures that you’d go all “no true scotsman” on your fellow religionists.
Cervantes
@J R in WV:
It wouldn’t be.
I don’t know what Paula was talking about any more than you do.
Paula
@Cervantes:
I responded that I didn’t actually think it was bigotry, but simple-mindedness.
The response to the passage of Prop 8 is a good example. After the election the idea that black folks turning out for Obama somehow created the momentum for prop 8 to be passed was strong enough to become a meme that people — including usually intelligent lefty people — passed around. If they had an idea about what was going on among folks of color around, say, even a liberal place like Los Angeles, they would know that many people of color (not just black folks) were in churches where the pro-prop 8 campaign had already taken hold and given the tendencies of most church members to follow what their leaders are saying w/o too much questioning, they would also know that these kinds of movements were less about truly believing that gay folks were evil than about a certain amount of allegiance to the community.
If I was enterprising activist, I would even say that there was room for intervention here, that getting lefty activists who understood religion as it functioned within communities could go in communicate a contrasting message, especially since many of these churches were Protestant and therefore not beholden to some kind of authority from far away. Of course, that gets into the criticism that many, many LGBTQ people of color have had in re the leadership of gay rights orgs: that it is dominated by white, middle class, well-educated folk who tended to be unaware of, agnostic or downright hostile to religion. I’m going to assume that when you extend that to the progressive blogosphere as a whole, it’s the same picture.
How does that hurt the progressive cause? Many people derive identity, community, and agency from membership within a religious group. In order to speak with them, you need to have a more nuanced understanding of how they “follow”, but also don’t follow, everything coming from the pulpit, because that’s going to give you some clue about what their real values are and how they might align with yours regardless of religion.
None of this, of course, means that you actually have to agree with them about religion. But it does mean a certain amount of awareness and diplomacy.
mclaren
No, actually, ministering to the poor and spouting “pure Marxism” was what Jesus Christ did.
mclaren
@Cacti:
Calling burnspbesq a “quisling” dishonors the already tarnished memory of Vidkun Quisling, a craven yet legitimate government official. The correct comparison is with Judas Iscariot.
Like Judas, our resident tax avoidance lawyer is always ready to grab his 30 pieces of silver in order to betray the basic principles of Christianity. And, like Judas, burnspbesq cares not what atrocities or unconscionable depravities he commits in the process.
Cervantes
@Paula:
OK, PJ referred to “progressive anti-Catholic bigotry regularly given vent here.” I observed that I have no idea what that refers to. And you’ve patiently pointed out, now twice, that the alleged bigotry among BJers is not bigotry but simple-mindedness. I can only say “Maybe so.”
Anyhow I thank you for your insightful response. It’s easy to say that the progressive cause is helped when left activists are able to engage creatively with religious folk (as opposed to condemning them a priori). More useful is to truly figure out “what their real values are and how they might align with yours regardless of religion.” Whether this can actually be done by “white, middle class, well-educated folk who tended to be unaware of, agnostic or downright hostile to religion” is, to me, an open question, though I have my doubts. In other words, when you say:
I can hope that awareness and diplomacy are sufficient, but Alinsky concluded (and taught) that one has to have allies inside the community as well.
Cervantes
@mclaren: Yes, I imagine that those who do not see at least a few similarities have to work hard at missing them.