I hereby invent the word: "upnerd". It means "to increase the level of technical detail."
— Noah Smith (@Noahpinion) October 15, 2014
Seriously: Would it be wrong to say that I find upnerd to be a perfectly cromulent word?
And other than orthography, what’s on the agenda as we wrap up the weekend?
JPL
I’ve been having a hissy fit because during the GA debate the Governor mentioned that his wife thought it was okay to vote on Sunday as Republicans went to Church first. The Republican party of GA does not want your vote if you choose to worship or not on another day.
Linnaeus
Right now, a vodka tonic with rosemary vodka and lime. Then a few hours going through archival material from the JFK library – CIA, NSC, etc. stuff. Good times.
lamh36
My youngest sister who graduated from college in Texas this past May has decided to go back to DFW. She’s accepted a job there and she leaves tomorrow.
So my mom threw a dinner and I’ve been there for the past 4 hours.
I’m just now getting back to my apartment.
Now sitting here watching the movie Jawbreaker. Man, Rose McGowan really was great playing a pretty high school bitch. It’s definitely a send up to Heathers.
All I need now is Heathers and The Craft.
thruppence
Gearing up for the second week of my new job after being ‘househusband’ for five years. Trying to find a new place to live in the SF Bay Area that will not take up more than half of my somewhat meager take home pay. Good times.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Laying on the mostly empty floor of our new living room trying to recover from the day’s moving activities while G builds himself some new Besta bookcases in the other room. I am SO glad now that we decided to get professionals to do the big stuff (on Wednesday) because we are definitely too old to be moving our own couches.
burnspbesq
Baggio Husidic?
Yes, Baggio Husidic.
LA 1-0 Seattle at the half.
bago
Over at the wonket we usually throw each other upfists, but only because it’s the dirtiest way to give a thumbs up.
WereBear
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Yep. That’s a demographic for you: when you and your friends are past the lugging couches stage.
Fortunately, it coincides with getting more substantial furniture, so it all works out :)
Anne Laurie
@JPL:
Well, it’s not about the ‘worship’ — it’s about being seen to worship, at the “right” place of course. Our church Godly, your church-or-lack-thereof inadequate. One more membership badge for the Right Folk!
Linnaeus
@efgoldman:
At home. It’s all photographed documents, converted into PDFs. Would love to actually go to the JFK Library someday.
A friend of mine is co-writing a book and she collected all of the material. She’s employed me to help her go through it, enter it into their bibliographic database, help with interpretation/context (she was originally trained as a medieval Europe historian), etc.
burnspbesq
@lamh36:
Don’t forget Pump Up the Volume.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
To be pedantic, this is more neologismism than orthography…
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@WereBear:
We’re still at a bit of a halfway point, though, because we still buy furniture you have to assemble yourself (partly because IKEA is only about three miles away).
I’m getting a sleeper couch for the craft room from IKEA so it can double as a guest room in a pinch and was very excited to find out that they assemble couches at a flat rate of $39 instead of charging according to value like they do for bookcases, dressers, etc.
JPL
@Anne Laurie: Well in all fairness, he didn’t say whether or not Republicans could vote on another day without the worship requirement.
J.D. Rhoades
@WereBear:
That’s a demographic for you: when you and your friends are past the lugging couches stage.
All I did was graduate to the “helping lug couches for my son and his boyfriend” stage.
lamh36
From the twitter machine:
https://twitter.com/SuzyKhimm/status/523971869272440832
https://twitter.com/SuzyKhimm/status/523972808389693440
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
My FitBit is saying I took more than 11K steps today, so another reason I’m still laying on the floor recovering.
(The only chair in the place right now is a wooden folding chair, and my gluteus did not like it.)
lamh36
@burnspbesq: oh, they’re following it up with Cruel Intentions. Not my fav movie at all. Guess I’ll have to just watch the 2nd season premiere of Black Dynamite on my DVR
Steeplejack
@thruppence:
Good luck with all that.
Are you still “mated”? Sorry if I mistakenly detected a whiff of breakup about your post.
JPL
@lamh36: First of all may she recover and then may she receive enough money from Presby to live happily ever after. Also, I assume her fiance is at risk and I hope that he doesn’t get sick from the nasty disease so they can marry. .
burnspbesq
49′, LA 2-0 Seattle. Marcelo Sarvas cleans up the trash after Seattle fails to clear a corner.
jl
Vorpal blades! One two, one two, through and through!
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Have you moved?
thruppence
@Steeplejack: No, it is definitely a (unilateral) breakup. The exact resolution is unclear, almost certainly a divorce, not exactly amicable but neither of us wants to ruin the other’s life. We’re feeling our way along, but she is currently out of the country and not communicating much as she tries to ‘reclaim her identity’. I want her to have what she wants, but maybe that was always a flaw in our relationship, me subordinating myself to her.
Suffern ACE
Are Thai soap operas more upnerdy than Korean manga?
thruppence
On the other hand, another couple we know has had the husband’s cancer recur, so that is a sobering reflection.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@lamh36: Billy Martin just got an amazing result for his client in a federal criminal case here. Walked his client on obstruction of justice charges after her advice to a client to “ditch the sim card” was recorded by the feds when relayed by another of her clients to him. Originally she’d announced to her staff that she’d plead and give up her license, and she closed her office. Something went awry with that plan so it went to trial.
Now she’s acquitted. No one on the bench is especially fooled as she was getting a reputation for coloring way outside the lines. So i think the Vinson family has retained excellent counsel.
JPL
@thruppence: It’s a difficult decision and it is a difficult time for both of you. I hope that you come out on the other end, happy.
schrodinger's cat
Upnerd, sounds like this Noah Smith person is trying too hard to be cool.
thruppence
@JPL: Thanks. Happy’s kind of unimaginable at this point; I’d just like to get to where I can imagine it again.
burnspbesq
Hmph. 69′, LA 2-1 Seattle. Dempsey whips home a cross from Yedlin.
trollhattan
Swedish Nazis accuse democracy-lurving Russia of sending subs into its waters. My advice to Russia: Sweden ain’t Ukraine; do not fvck with people who eat lutefisk and claim to enjoy it.
burnspbesq
Fcuk. 2-2. Galaxy defense completely switched off. Nagle capitalizes.
Tim F.
Example: someone makes a general reference to a star trek episode on wikipedia and people immediately add the relevant episodes with appropriate abbreviations (TOS 3:6).
ETA: that is the one where the ship’s bridge officers have to re-enact the shootout at the OK Corral, for reasons that seem both complicated and kind of dumb.
JPL
@thruppence: You will. It takes awhile of numbness though.
jl
@schrodinger’s cat:
” Upnerd, sounds like this Noah Smith person is trying too hard to be cool. ”
Noah Smith is a mathematically inclined macoeconomics blogger. His blog is called Noahpinion
http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/
So, I think he is just that way.
Edit: presonally, I think working in the phrase ‘nerd up’ is better. Upnerd sounds like a gag reflex that kicks in when too close to too many nerds. But maybe that is just me.
Edit2: though ‘nerd up’ sounds like a FUBAR created by nerds, or hiccups by situation described above. Perhaps, some things, such as cool phraseology, just do not go with nerds at all.
Tim F.
@trollhattan: Since when have Russian subs not passed through Swedish waters? That strait between Sweden and Denmark is a pretty fucking obvious place for, you know, water vehicles.
FlipYrWhig
@JPL: You know who else goes to church on Sunday and then votes? Black people. Souls to the polls and all that. Democrats.
FlipYrWhig
@jl: what’s the word? Nerd up! Cameo, 1986.
Central Planning
@Linnaeus:
Sounds delicious. What brand of rosemary vodka?
JPL
@FlipYrWhig: I know but I hadn’t heard that Sunday voting was okay if Republicans went to church first. People might vote on Sunday because it’s the only day off they have.
burnspbesq
@Tim F.:
Except that the Russians don’t have a base on the Baltic Sea. Their subs are based at Polyyarny, near Murmansk, and they transit north of Scandinavia to reach the North Atlantic (the obvious reason being that it’s far too easy for NATO to close the strait between Denmark and Sweden). If they’re in that neighborhood, there’s fuckery afoot.
jl
@FlipYrWhig: Noah Smith in that?
Anyway, not sure of the implications, but Noah Smith can, I think, safely be considered, a true, bone deep, nerd.
Implications of that for his attempt to coin a phrase deserve a few seconds of thought and discussion, probably.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@trollhattan: When the going gets tough, the Swedes stay neutral.
Anne Laurie
@schrodinger’s cat: I like such of Noah Smith’s twitter/blog stuff as I can understand (he’s an economist, and I won’t even pretend to read that part). I like the concept of upnerd, too, most of my life has been among people who take joy in footnotes!
Steeplejack
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
As part of my recent decluttering/spring cleaning/final unpacking/reorganization I bought an Ekenäs chair and ottoman (in dark gray) that turned out to be incredibly comfortable. Which was very gratifying, since I usually have horrible luck test-driving furniture in the store and determining what will be comfortable over the long haul at home. The chair is very good for sitting up, and with the ottoman it’s slouchy enough that I no longer occasionally regret not having a sofa/loveseat.
My other chair is a Tullsta that I’ve had for nine years. Just got a new red cover for that.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@burnspbesq: The Russians have a sub brigade (with three diesel subs) based in St. Petersburg.
Edit: The main Russian naval base on the Baltic is at Kaliningrad, since it remains ice free in the winter.
Steeplejack
@lamh36:
I just rewatched the Black Dynamite movie a couple of weeks ago. Hilarious for someone who remembers seeing all those blaxploitation movies when they first came out.
And I love the series, too. There’s a rerun on at 1:00 a.m. EDT tonight.
schrodinger's cat
@Anne Laurie: Sounds like bragging to me, look at me, I am a special snowflake. Not just a nerd but an uber nerd. Krugman doesn’t have to announce his nerd or “upnerd” status. Of course YMMV.
Steeplejack
@thruppence:
Well, good luck with all that, too.
Mandalay
So Michigan’s Republican governor has to decide on Tuesday whether he signs off on a law that would prevent Tesla from selling directly to the public in MI, rather than through a dealership. You’d think it would be a no-brainer to refuse to sign (because FreeMarketsBitches), but other red states including NC, TX and AZ have already told Tesla GFY.
Why? Because the state politicians are bought off by lobbylists for the car dealerships. IANAL, but I just don’t understand how this can be legal. If Apple was told that they couldn’t have Apple stores, and could only sell through other retailers, or American Airlines was told it could only sell tickets through travel agents, all kinds of shit would be hitting the fan.
But somehow it’s apparently OK to tell Tesla that it is illegal to sell their cars through Tesla stores? I can’t think of a better example of politicians being bribed to pass bad law.
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36: Cruel Intentions stars (in my mind) a Jaguar XK-140. I am willing to watch it simply for that car.
Violet
@lamh36: Yeah, there was more to it as well:
She was following protocols.
mai naem
@lamh36: She was a fucking idiot to get on the plane. Even if she was asymptomatic. I’m guessing if they recover Amber and Nina are going to be set for life, or their families are going to be set for life, financially anyway. There was a piece in USA Today online, an interview with the critical care doc. One of the telling comments he made was something to the effect of the the hit to the finances of the practices of his colleagues at the hospital, because, you know it’s always about the almighty $$$. And he said it was insulting to even suggest that he and the hospital treated the uninsured black man differently. What was disgusting about the story though were the comments. Oy Vey. A lot of the fiancee being an illegal and the patient lying to the ER about having been exposed to ebola and how the rest of it is all Obama’s CDC’s fault. .
Howard Beale IV
@burnspbesq: Foxtrox Alpha has some interesting takes and some more background.
Omnes Omnibus
@mai naem: If she followed the protocols that she was given and received an okay to travel, she was not being an idiot. People really need to stop blaming the victims here.
Howard Beale IV
@mai naem: I would have thought the attorneys for Texas Presby would have told their staff physicians to STFU. Then again, what do you expect when you have hospitals managed by MBA’s?
gogol's wife
@Tim F.:
Or look at the comments on IMDB on any war movie, where the aircraft, tanks, etc., are discussed and people try to outdo each other in identifying them and whether or not the film represents them accurately. Just the discussions of B-17s alone . . . .
gogol's wife
@Steeplejack:
Lewis was quite good tonight. Now I go into withdrawal. Next week is Death Comes to Pemberley, which doesn’t look promising.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s the protocols that were wrong or unclear. Or at least not well thought through. Erring on the side of caution by keeping a close eye on anyone who interacted with Mr. Duncan would have been a good move since this was the first case and it was already known the hospital botched it by letting him leave the first time.
But Amber Vinson followed the protocols she was given. She even called in with an update that her temperature had risen. Still told to get on the plane. The CDC may have been following acceptable protocols medically but there’s a difference between that and dealing with a public that’s all hyped up on cable news fearmongering. Given that everyone was freaking out it was probably better to over-monitor people to contain the panic. People panicking has its own public health risks.
Omnes Omnibus
@gogol’s wife: It is from a P. D. James book. It gives one hope.
Tommy
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t blame the nurse. I blame the hospital. The admin. Clearly things were not what they should have been. The nurse does what she/he is told to do.
Howard Beale IV
@Mandalay: This shows one of the inherent contradictions in so-called free-market laissez faire capitalism – competition is considered wasteful of capital, and therefore must be eliminated by any and all means necessary.
Linnaeus
@Central Planning:
It’s from a local Seattle distiller called Oola. Not sure if they sell outside of the Seattle area.
mai naem
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not blaming her for getting ebola. This is the way I look at it – there’s a small probability for a short period of time that I might catch a very contagious life threatening disease. Now, I’m not thinking about anybody else. I am just thinking of just me myself. Do I stay in town where I am near the place where I’ll probably get treated and the docs know me and my situation, or do I fly to another city for a short vacation where if the disease develops I don’t know where to go. Now if I was thinking of other people I might think about how it will look if I do catch the disease and I am travelling in a closed environment and,oh yeah, it’s going to look bad for my colleagues at the place where I make my living.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: Yes, the protocols may not have met the P.R. needs of current society. But all one can and should expect of people is that they follow the rules and guidance provided to them. As I understand it, Ms. Vinson did that. In my view, as noted in multiple previous threads, she is completely without fault. Unless, of course, someone can tell me why saying, “The CDC is cool with me getting on a plane” was not, at the time she did it, a reasonable justification to believe that it was okay to get on a plane.
the Conster
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sorry, not buying it. The fact that she kept asking if it was OK means that she was duly concerned and knew of the risk because of her exposure – and that it was a HUGE risk – to her, her mother and future husband, to say nothing about being a potential transmission vector because PLANE. Yet, she still dismissed it. She’s not blameless.
Steeplejack
@gogol’s wife:
I DVR’d Inspector Lewis for viewing later tonight or tomorrow. Just can’t concentrate right now—multitasking on Balloon Juice with the NFL game in the background. Glad to hear that it’s a good episode, because the one last week was a bit of a dog’s breakfast, although I liked the ending bit with the main characters getting together for pizza or whatever. The saving grace of this series is the relationship between Lewis and Hathaway, and it is interesting to see how it is changing with Lewis’s semi-retirement. And I like the addition of Hathaway’s sergeant (Lizzie?) and look for interesting stuff there.
One of the lesser PBS stations here has started running the original Inspector Morse in (I think) chronological order. Last week was “The Dead of Jericho,” which was the first episode (1987!), and this week it’s “The Silent World of Nicholas Quinn,” which was the second. So I’m hoping they will proceed through the whole series in order. I think there are a lot of them that I missed. This last spring/summer they ran the final season, most of which I had not seen, which was very interesting—especially the ending, “The Remorseful Day.” (Spoiler available upon request.)
jl
@Omnes Omnibus:
” If she followed the protocols that she was given and received an okay to travel, she was not being an idiot. People really need to stop blaming the victims here. ”
Agreed. I cannot keep all the supposed ‘idiot’ health professionals straight. But anyone who followed the protocols as they existed at the time, and especially if they consulted with CDC to make sure, should not be called an idiot.
I know at least one of the nurses did just that.
Protocols won’t do any good if people decide to do what they feel like. People should think about that if they need to go to the ER and there is a shortage of professionals there because they all decided to be ‘extra cautious’ about a protocol, even after checking with competent authorities about their own unique situation.
AFAIK, not one of these people had a significant chance of spreading Ebola when they were travelling, they were not symptomatic yet. But, what the hell, panic and blame because it feels good.
Omnes Omnibus
@the Conster: She asked at different times to see if the guidance had changed. It did not. It clearly indicates that, if someone had said don’t fly, she wouldn’t have done. People are attacking a person for having relied on expert opinion when, in hindsight, that expert opinion may well have been inadequate. I call bullshit on any claims that the vast majority of us, if presented with such an expert opinion, would have said “Oh, let me be extra safe and just stay at home for a few weeks even though the CDC says it is completely unnecessary.”
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, there’s the “Neuremberg Defense” argument. Just because the CDC said it was okay, if she had concerns she could have decided not to go on her trip. She was always free to stay home. She might have lost her ticket and it would have messed up her wedding plans but she could have made that decision.
The CDC is the most at fault. They were unprepared and they failed to take panic into account. Public panic is a public health issue and allaying fears and acting “out of an abundance of caution” in the most cautious manner is reasonable under those circumstances. They really fell down on the job.
jl
@Omnes Omnibus:
” that expert opinion may well have been inadequate. ”
I have to wonder how much of that retrospective inadequacy is due to CDC belated recognition of what ignorant fear soaked pant-pissing coward cry babies there are in the US public. Protocols probably should have been changed, but I got sick of experts trying to explain to nincompoops in radio and TV that, you know, infectious disease is kinda like a disaster response: you do the best you can do at the time with the information you have. 20/20 hindsight is always perfect, and wonderful pass time for people who don’t know much and don’t do anything at all (specifically corporate media divas and GOP pols).
the Conster
@Omnes Omnibus:
Blame the CDC – fine, but think about it for five more minutes, and it’s just crazy that she got on that plane. Really, take off your judge hat and put on your son, your father and your brother hat, and ask yourself again whether you get on that plane knowing that you’re running a low grade fever after you’ve been exposed to an almost certainly fatal disease that you could VERY LIKELY carry to your family and unknown others, or stay home and wait a few days. Is this that hard to grok?
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: No, this is not remotely like the Nuremberg Defense. That defense is that “I received an order and I had no right to question it.” In this case, the nurse asked for guidance and received an expert opinion. She reasonably relied on that opinion and acted accordingly. If one wants to establish that her behavior was unreasonable, one needs to show that reliance on advice from the CDC is unreasonable.
mai naem
I actually wonder if denial plays a part in this. This is pure speculation. I wonder if Duncan was in denial when he went in the first time and was probably relieved when they thought he was some kind if short term viral bug. Same with the Amber Vinson. She wanted to go home and plan for the wedding etc. and was wishing that the low grade temp was an upper respiratory because the alternative was awful to contemplate. The critical care doc at Dallas said they kept on hoping Nina Pham’s illness was just a cold.
jl
@Violet: There is an opportunity cost to health professionals going and hiding out on their own when the protocol says there is no reason too.
Nuremberg is about ethical and moral judgments, not scientific fact.
I do not see at all how the CDC is most at fault at all, unless they are supposed to also regulate everything that goes on at US hospitals. The hospital itself is most at fault, for not providing adequate equipment to the care givers for almost three days.
Probably the real thing at fault was that the goof in taking patient history was not discovered in a timely way, due to bad design of information flow between docs and nurses, or sloppy use of system by caregivers.
I’m tired to trying to anticipate the delicate ignorant cowardly sensibilities of the US public, and which is a sad pawn in the hands of ruthless political operators anyway, so there is no point to trying to anticipate panic, anyway. Something will be manufactured as opportunity permits no matter what happens. And with ignorant cowards as marks, that is an easy thing to do.
So, that is my IMHO on it.
gogol's wife
@Steeplejack:
Our local station spent several years re-running Morse every Friday night, and I think we’ve watched every episode at least three times apiece. Fave is Dead on Time, but Remorseful Day is up there too.
Omnes Omnibus
@the Conster:
Objection, facts not in evidence. That’s the damned point of relying on what the CDC said. She was told it was cool. She believed what she was told.
Back in the 80s, I slept with some women without using condoms (the ladies were on the pill), I really didn’t worry that I might give my mom AIDS if I kissed her on the lips. Jesus, can we not panic?
AliceBlue
@jl:
The CDC doesn’t regulate anything at a hospital. It’s my understanding that the CDC can make recommendations, but cannot enforce them.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus: It was an analogy, not an exact comparison. You can’t compare an ethical legal issue with a medical protocol. In this case the higher ups–the CDC–developed a protocol and told her to follow it. In a medical situation like her work at the hospital if she chose not to follow protocol she’d be in trouble. If the protocol was bad, and she knew it was bad, that would be the comparison.
In this case she didn’t have to travel. It wasn’t work related or required. She chose to travel and used guidance from the CDC to help her decide whether or not to go. The decision was ultimately hers.
Omnes Omnibus
@gogol’s wife: My local PBS station has been doing George Gently on Friday nights. I really like the series. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on one’s view) I have had social obligations the past few Fridays.
FlipYrWhig
@jl: I can see blaming the CDC if she infected other people by following their advice. But she didn’t. What’s the problem again?
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: I agree with you.
@FlipYrWhig:
So far, there is no problem. Aside from the freak-out.
FlipYrWhig
@the Conster: But she hasn’t carried the disease to anybody. Seems like traveling was really not such a problem after all, no?
lamh36
GAHHHH! 14 Days to go then…Hawaii here I come.
FlipYrWhig
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s SUCH a weird freakout. It’s like freaking out that someone got on a plane with a boxcutter and _didn’t_ hijack it.
Steeplejack
@gogol’s wife:
Mental note to watch for “Dead on Time.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet:
What was wrong with her decision? She was told that is was okay to fly. She flew.
the Conster
@FlipYrWhig:
Except that it closed schools, created an unnecessary national panic and fanned the flames for days and days. Whatevs. Does she bear any responsibility for that?
Mike in NC
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): The main Russian naval base in the Baltic is at Kronshtadt, 30 km west of St Petersburg. We saw a number of vessels there last May that weren’t abandoned rust buckets.
Violet
@jl: The CDC has said they were slow to act and slow to manage what happened. Part of their job is public health. If they were not prepared for Americans to freak out and panic at the first Ebola case here then they really weren’t doing their jobs.
Steeplejack
Signs of autumn: I got the down comforter with flannel cover out of the closet and deployed it on the bed today, replacing the summer-weight blanket and supplementary throw that I have been using. And I turned on the central heat for the first time this season. We had a big temperature drop here in NoVA—it was up close to 70° yesterday, didn’t get up to 60° today—and the temp inside dropped to 66°. I put the thermostat on 70° for a while to heat things up and cut the humidity, then dropped it back to 68°. Got a little of that “first time the heat has been on” smell for a bit—sort of like an “ironing clothes” smell—but it went away quickly.
The housecat was applauding the down comforter during nap time this afternoon. Her faux sheepskin throw is always on the bed, and that’s her spot, but she loves the extra cushiness of the comforter underneath. Good times.
Mike in NC
@lamh36: If you go to Honolulu, try hiking to the top of Diamond Head. The view is phenomenal.
Violet
@FlipYrWhig: Do we know she hasn’t infected anyone? Is there a 21 day quarantine for her fiance and family? What about the people on the plane? I’m not sure what the CDC is doing. I’m actually asking the question.
FlipYrWhig
@the Conster: A lot of people handle a lot of infectious stuff and get on planes and no one ever knows about it. That doesn’t freak me out either. There was no reason for anyone to panic. It’s stupid. Closing schools is stupid. Being a baby about a disease that is hard to get unless you are ETA practically physically touching a person who already is dying of it is stupid. Catering to unspecific and amorphous fear… If we have to do that now, we might as well just all never leave the house, except for the fact that our houses are filled with toxic mold and glass and animals who could go wild at any second AIIIEEEEEEEE!
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@the Conster: No, she doesn’t. Not only did she follow the CDC protocols and the instructions she was given, you can’t hold her responsible for the collective insanity of a bunch of morons.
FlipYrWhig
@Violet: I suppose we don’t know that yet. I’m not an expert. I’m just fed up with the way sensible people are acting. I think Omnes Omnibus‘s comment puts it in perspective. There are dangers and then there are dangers.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s the point of disagreement. Some people think it’s fine for her to do what the CDC told her to do. Others think that if they were in that situation they would think the CDC wasn’t cautious enough and there’s no way they would get on a plane and risk infecting family and friends and people on the plane(s).
Your question is “what was wrong with her decision?” and that’s the point of debate. Nothing or something. You think nothing. Others think something.
Alison
@lamh36: Jawbreaker is so totally one of my super cheesy guilty pleasures. Have you seen Devil in the Flesh?
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
I like George Gently, somewhat alloyed by the fact that I have been seeing the episodes out of order. Two of the lesser PBS stations run them sporadically, and I catch them when I can. Things really clicked when I finally saw the first episode, which explained both Gently’s rage and his exile to the hinterlands.
The only thing I don’t like about the series is that it handles the whole “Hey, it’s the ’60s!” thing a little clumsily—in contrast to Endeavour, which has done a great job of working in some of the period subtext with great subtlety. Occasionally Gently is a little heavy-handed. But it’s a good series.
Which I could find one person on this blog who has seen Montalbano, a really awesome Italian series (now available on DVD).
Omnes Omnibus
@the Conster: People panicked for no valid reason. Ms. Vinson is not responsible for people being cowards. How in he hell is she supposed to anticipate that people would freak-out over her following the advice of the best experts in the world? She is a nurse; she does nursing. She is not a P.R. expert. She is not a media person. She did something that she was told by experts was okay. If you or anyone else would have done differently, that is is fine, but it does not make her actions wrong. Her actions were completely justifiable, and, honestly, suggestions that they were not are a bit along the lines of the people who freaked out about any form of air travel by dusky hued folk following the 9/11 attacks. Yeah, I went there.
the Conster
@FlipYrWhig:
You’re being awfully dismissive of what we know about the fatality of Ebola – she wasn’t exposed to someone who died of the flu or some other infectious disease. Your argument is disengenuous.
lamh36
@Mike in NC: I’d love to do that, but when I say I’m out of shape, I mean it, I get winded way quickly and I’d like to not have an asthma attack and have to go to the ER on my vacation.
but… I have plans to go back for a longer trip and I WILL darn sure be checking out Diamondhead.
the Conster
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not buying it. I don’t understand what she did, wouldn’t have done it, and have no sympathy for her because she made her choice, and I think she chose… poorly.
FlipYrWhig
@Violet: “Risk” isn’t just one uniform experience, of course. We put up with a lot of very small risks. Going by what I know, which admittedly isn’t much, this strikes me as a very small risk.
Violet
@the Conster: I don’t think she bears responsibility for that. Schools closing–that’s just ridiculous. Since she was following protocols I don’t think she is responsible for increasing the panic. The CDC wasn’t swift enough in what it did–as it has admitted. Had they been more on top of things they could have monitored everyone more closely, including her, and she probably would not have been allowed to travel.
Again, the CDC deals with public health and panic, although usually stupid, is a public health issue. It has real consequences. The CDC was naive and unprepared if they didn’t think the first case of Ebola in the US (not a sick person being brought here for care) would panic people. Their job is to damp down the panic. They didn’t do that effectively.
lamh36
@Alison: no I haven’t. I don’t even think I’ve heard of it before. I’ll have to google it
FlipYrWhig
@the Conster: She wasn’t filling slop buckets with blood and stool as she traveled by plane. This is why I’m being dismissive. To the degree that there were risks, it involves the emergence of spectacular symptoms. Which she didn’t have. Which is why this is much ado about nothing, IMHO. IANAEpidemiologist.
Alison
@lamh36: Rose McGowan as a totally hot nutbag, whee! :P
the Conster
@Violet:
I’m not blaming her for closing schools down – I’m blaming her for getting on the plane, which started the whole Ball of Stupid Rolling. To me, it’s just a fucking no brainer to not get on the plane. Apparently, everyone but me and John Cole would have gotten on the plane.
Omnes Omnibus
@the Conster: And I think that you are being paranoid because, while Ebola is deadly and horrible, IT CAN ONLY BE TRANSMITTED IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, NONE OF WHICH CAME UP IN MS. VINSON’S SITUATION! Why the fuck would you close schools and otherwise panic unless you were some who just was inclined to panic?
Anne Laurie
@gogol’s wife:
The book was actually quite readable, and I’m not very sympathetic to pastiches in general — especially those attempting to imitate Miss Austen!
If you’ve read any P.D. James, she’s (IMO) a little too in love with her main detective character, but her crisp style is a lot closer to Jane’s than the general romance-writers who’ve attempted to continue the Darcys’ story.
Steeplejack
@Alison:
I was going to say that Rose McGowan herself is one of my “super cheesy guilty pleasures.” I’ll even sit through an episode of Charmed for her. Okay, maybe not a whole episode. But still.
Violet
@FlipYrWhig: It does seem that the further along a person is with the disease the more contagious they are or the more the likelihood of transmission increases. I guess because more bodily fluids are flying around (sorry to be gross). But maybe there’s something else about the end stage of the virus?
So you are right that with a slightly elevated temperature she probably would not be transmitting the disease, even if she sneezed on someone or passed their drink to them on her row on the plane or whatever. That’s probably a reasonable conclusion. Although I guess we don’t know for sure. Maybe immune compromised people would be more susceptible?
Mike in NC
@lamh36: We went to Hawaii about nine or ten years ago. Spent a week at the Hale Koa military resort at Waikiki Beach. My wife hated me for not booking it for another week, but I was anxious to get back to the DC area to start a new job.
One of the highlights on Oahu was to visit Schofield Barracks where my dad was stationed for a while during WW2, before he shipped out to the South Pacific. It still looked like it did in the movie “From Here To Eternity”.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack: Ms. McGowan is lovely.
NotMax
Upnerd is both clunky and ugly sounding. If had to immediately come up with something less grating to describe the same phenomenon (without mulling it over for a good while) might suggest technify.
Orthography refers to spelling, emphasis, punctuation and the like of a language, not word origin or creation. Perhaps you meant etymology?
Violet
@the Conster: I have a lot of sympathy for her. She followed protocol. As far as she knew the protocol she was given was appropriate. The first nurse (Pham) wasn’t sick when she left on the first flight. So as far as anyone knew no one had caught the disease from Mr. Duncan. I’m trying to imagine my increasing panic as it dawned on me that the CDC might not have been cautious enough with their protocol, I might be at risk, and now my temperature is elevated and I’ve possibly exposed people I love to Ebola.
I think it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback it from here after all the events have happened. In real time it probably wasn’t as clear.
Violet
@Mike in NC: Hawaii is just so gorgeous. I’m envious of anyone planning a trip there. Wonderful place to go.
trollhattan
@Tim F.: @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
This time, Russia faces the most-feared weapon in the Swedish arsenal.
You’d think they’d have the decency to publish this stuff in English.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet:
So, you call and ask. And they tell you everything is okay and that the word comes from the CDC. Do you freak out, or do you say that if the CDC says I am okay, I am okay? I have a guess of which most people would have chosen even as this panic started.
As I understand it, unless we touch the recently expelled vomit or blood of an Ebola victim while that victim is in the ugly stages of the disease, we ain’t going to get it. Can someone tell me why people are panicking? Please?
Alison
@Steeplejack: hahaha yeah, I tried watching Charmed when they added her but good lord. The writing on that show plus Alyssa Milano’s combo of terrible acting, terrible hair and terrible clothes was too much to take. Plus I felt like they really wasted the opportunity with McGowan and managed to make her boring.
CaseyL
Today I went hiking for the first time in, like, a month. Coal Creek Falls trail, very pretty, along with a couple good friends for company. 5 miles RT, just a 400 foot elevation gain. A really good walk on an easy trail, though I’m out of shape enough that I’ll be stiff and sore tomorrow. (It was an especially good day to go hiking and not watch football. The Seahawks haven’t been the same since they lost Golden Tate.)
I also tried to bell my Mighty Hunter cat. I was guilted into it: Think of the birds! I got the collar on him with no problem. He went batshit and ran outside, and stayed there until evening. He came in, but wouldn’t eat or drink because the bell would bang against the dishes, and he would freak out. Oscar has been known to go without eating for days, and I didn’t want that to happen, so… off came the collar. *sigh*
scav
@Violet: As I understand the Interferon aspect, Ebola (along with a few others) interfere with part of the immune response which allows them to really really take over and fill you with entirely too many baby virus. This one is for total topical upnerd technobabble points (has handy word “immunosuppression” though), this is more legible. I imagine LAMH36 will translate this to BJese tomorrow.
Steeplejack
@Alison:
Plus Shannen Doherty was on there for a while too, right? Ngrr.
And I always felt vaguely embarrassed that I was attracted to Holly Marie Combs. She was like the most middle-class witch ever.
Maybe just too much estrogen flying around in that show in general for me. But, hey, Rose did get me to watch occasionally, just sayin’.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus:
You have a nice rational statement about public safety followed by asking why people are panicking. Panic by definition is not rational. It is not the rational brain that creates panic; it’s an emotional response. People respond emotionally to a perceived threat. The less understood the threat and the greater the perceived risk the higher the panic.
That’s why the CDC needs to factor public panic into its public health response for a new and scary disease. People will be afraid. They will likely panic. There are smart ways to minimize the panic. The CDC didn’t act in such a way that would minimize the panic. Instead they were a step behind and reactive. That’s a poor way to deal with public panic.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack: In my opinion, Ms. McGowan justifies all.
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
Can’t argue with that.
scav
The usual comment about not being able to idiot-proof things because they keep building better idiots probably has a corollary involving panickers. We’ve got a talented and imaginative bench, all in all.
? Martin
Sorry, that’s incorrect usage. Geek is technical knowledge. Nerd is social awkward.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: So, are we going to add to the panic? Me? I choose not to do so. Everyone else may choose otherwise. When people look back, I am sure I will not be embarrassed by my actions. Let’s see what happens.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t know who the “we” is in your comment. I’m not panicking about Ebola. That’s just silly.
jl
Listening to a replay of Schieffer’s sunday talking show. The crazed hick and gracious courtly ace journalist of repute does not WTF he is talking about, apparently has read not one thing about Ebola and is being a general fool.
AAAAYYYYY jesss donnnnn unnerstand HAYEEERR!? Thayeee don seema hava cleeewwwwwuuuue was goin’ on.
Idiot.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: Everybody has different levels of risk tolerance. To me, it seems pretty shitty to get angry at someone who did what was officially right just because they have a different risk tolerance and assessment process than you (generic you, not specific you) do. She was told by officials that she was okay, multiple times. So she followed their advice, figuring that they knew more than she did. That’s typically a good decision-making process: trust the experts, double-check if you are concerned, then live your life. In fact, it’s the people like the anti-vaccers who think reading some shit on the internet makes them more qualified than the experts who drive me crazy.
cckids
@Tommy:
Legally, true, but infuriating from a real-world point of view. Too many people, medical & otherwise, do what they are told, rather than what common sense would dictate. An RN should be able to think for herself on this subject.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
CDC updated one of their FAQ pages tonight – Caring for Ebola Suspects.
Someone’s burning the midnight oil…
Cheers,
Scott.
Amir Khalid
@jl:
Or you could allow “upnerd” into English as a separable verb like they have in German: the infinitive could be “upnerd”, but as a finite verb the prefix up- would go after the object. Or something like that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet:Okay, nothing personal. Assuming people accept that the disease is not passing to their loved ones, if not. That is, is everyone here rational?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@cckids: Your opinion on “common sense” is out weighed by CDC’s decades of study and expertise on how to respond to an Ebola outbreak – Safe Patient Management:
Note the big AND there.
Also note that the CDC didn’t pick these recommendations and numbers out of a hat. There’s science, not “common sense” behind them.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: That is actually my take on it. Cole and the others who say that she was an asshole for making this decision are assholes for deciding this.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Nope, not gonna bite.
Amir Khalid
@cckids:
The problem with relying on “common sense” is that sometimes, our idea of what is sensible can lead us to do precisely the wrong thing. Reality is often tricky like that. And the conditioned reflex of a professional is to seek expert guidance first. Which, as I understand, is what these nurses working with Ebola patients did. It may have been the guidance that failed them.
ETA: I see that others have beaten me to it, and in more detail too. Pout.
cckids
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Very true, and I didn’t mean to put aside the CDC’s advice. The phrase about “doing what she was told” absolutely makes me see red. My spouse lost work colleagues in the WTC who did what they were told & went back to their desks rather than bugging out. I have a strong gag reflex about that saying.
BubbaDave
@the Conster:
I shook hands with an HIV-positive man once and didn’t quarantine myself in my apartment for weeks afterwards. I guess I’m effectively a mass murderer?
Suzanne
@cckids: The vast majority of RNs I know—including my aunt and my best friend—are very straight-up about what they don’t know. They are smart and have much experience, but they are not doctors and their role is to carry out instructions that they are given. Asking someone to make a judgment call like that—contra the directions of a doctor, and at personal cost—is probably asking too much of most people.
jl
@Amir Khalid: Are you upnerding the discussion of ‘upnerd’? I never thought of you as a ‘meta’ type of guy.
Suzanne
@cckids: Asking people to go against direction, especially when they are under stress or duress, is basically asking them to go against all human psychology and evolution. I agree that it sucks, however.
Amir Khalid
@jl:
Yeah, I am. Top that, bitchez!
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: She is just terrified that I might have touched something awful
BubbaDave
@BubbaDave:
Oh, and I live in Dallas. Never been to Presby, AFAIK, no contact whatsoever with anything to do with ebola. Dropped a friend off at Austin City Limits last weekend and called my dad in San Antonio to tell him I was gonna swing by. My stepmom vetoed it because she didn’t want to risk the ebola invading her house. I thought that was a bit extreme overreaction, but apparently some of the folks in this thread would be commending her for her caution….
cckids
@Amir Khalid:
Yes, obviously the response to this has been much less than perfect. Again, I’m filtering my response through the years of time I’ve spent in hospitals, watching nurses & docs deal with MRSA & other bugs & seeing them ignore protocols at times because they are a PITA. To me, with these nurses, common sense should combine with their training. As someone said above, she obviously had concerns or she wouldn’t have called the CDC multiple times.
My dad lived the last 8 years of his life with leukemia. As a family, if we had any bug, or had been exposed to any bug, we didn’t go & hang out with him so we wouldn’t transmit anything. We didn’t just do it if we had a fever, or were actively coughing. We self-quarantined so as to be sure we didn’t give him the bug that might kill him. That is the kind of “common sense” I’m talking about.
SWMBO
@Suzanne: Couple of questions here: What if she had flown out, found out one of her coworkers had it, came home and had….nothing? We wouldn’t know that she existed would we? How many of Duncan’s family has it? How many were exposed and managed to not get it? How many people were exposed by staff (doctors, nurses, techs, etc) going in and out of Duncan’s room when he was sick and highly contagious? They (these two nurses) weren’t the only ones exposed via poor protocols. Who else is a ticking vomit comet out there? If they all fall back on the “the CDC told us this was ok” defense, then who takes the blame for others who were exposed? Since I haven’t heard anything else about Duncan’s family, I’m assuming they are ok. They were exposed before anyone. I think if you rely on the experts advice, you have to assume they know more than you do. Otherwise, you just pray it away and blame Obama. (yes I realize that was more than a couple of questions. My bad.)
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus: I think we’re way down the rabbit hole if we start assessing the rationality of the Balloon Juice commentariat.
As for this specific case, I see both arguments and don’t really come down on either side. I don’t condemn the nurse for following the CDC protocol. That’s a rational decision. In general following the experts’ recommendations is the right call.
However, in this specific case there were other issues. The nurses who cared for Mr. Duncan spoke anonymously with the national nurse’s union and talked about all sorts of protocol violations or lack of proper equipment. Nurse Vinson was one of the nurses who cared for him, from what I understand, so she must have seen and/or been involved in the protocol violations/wrong equipment. If so, and knowing that 21 days is the quarantine time (that was public knowledge so I’m figuring a nurse should know it), and she was within that timeframe, then it might occur to her to take extra precautions. Those extra precautions could include not flying to visit her family. That also seems like a rational decision or approach.
Was the CDC aware of the nurses’ accusations regarding the lack of protocol in the Dallas Presbyterian hospital when they told her it was okay to fly? Maybe she had that information and they did not. Maybe she didn’t see any protocol violations or had the right equipment all along. It seems like a gray area to me. From where I am I don’t know who knew what. Lots of moving targets and finger pointing.
For me, the hospital is most to blame. The CDC is next. The nurses and other hospital workers are not to be blamed for doing what the CDC told them to do. However, if they had additional information that made them question the guidelines, then they would have been right to take additional precautions over and above the CDC guidelines.
cckids
@Suzanne:
It does. It is one of my pet peeves with what our education system is becoming; turning out people who don’t/can’t think for themselves. Be a good little worker bee & don’t ask questions. Why try to think about anything beyond what is on the test, doesn’t do you any good anyway.
To be clear, I’m not one of the “she’s just an asshole” brigade. I’m just putting myself in her place & what I would have done, based on my own life experiences.
Violet
@SWMBO: I think Duncan’s family’s 21 day quarantine ended today or ends tonight at midnight. It was on the news but I wasn’t paying that much attention to exactly when it ends. None of them contracted it.
cckids
@SWMBO:
Their quarantine ends tomorrow. None of them is showing signs of Ebola.
This being Texas, they are not welcome back at their apartment, their jobs, and probably for the kids, their schools. They still have a world of hurt coming their way.
cckids
@Violet:
This. You’ve conveyed my point of view much more clearly & concisely than I’ve been able to. Thank you!!
Violet
@cckids: I think I read that the Liberian community is shunning them as well. That must really suck for them.
Suzanne
@cckids: That shit TERRIFIES me. HAIs (hospital-acquired infections) are a HUGE cause of death in this country, and the vast majority of those could be prevented if nurses washed their hands every time they went into a patient’s room. And yet….many do not. Because the protocol is annoying. Because I’ve been doing this for thirty years, and nothing bad has ever happened. Because I have dry skin. Blah blah blah.
@SWMBO: I have no good answer. I just don’t think she deserves the public lashing she’s getting, when the vast majority of people would have done the same thing. She’s sick and needs our sympathy.
Suzanne
@SWMBO: Why does anyone need to be blamed, aside from the institutions who didn’t protect people? Diseases transmit. Humans are imperfect. Laying blame is really not the important thing to do right now.
SWMBO
@cckids: Plus one helluva hospital bill, I imagine.
I still think the big freakout over ISIS could have been directed at Ebola in Africa and calls from the WATB in media and Congress could have been deflected to actually doing something over there (that will save more lives than ISIS, Benghazi or whatever the panic of the month is.) If the pants wetters want something done, they need to send in more equipment, medicine and workers to help.
This is not about one or two nurses in our country, it is about screaming and losing our collective minds when there is a lot more we can do about saving people NOW. Instead of after it comes here.
YMMV
Violet
@cckids: You’re welcome. I keep comparing the panicked response to the mess at the Dallas hospital to the response to having other patients in other hospitals like Emory. No one is asking the nurses and lab techs and other hospital workers at Emory to quarantine themselves. Why not? Because those hospitals are handling things properly. Their protocols are in place and being followed.
The Dallas hospital started out by making a mistake in the initial diagnosis. It just got worse from there. It’s hardly a surprise that two nurses who cared for him contracted Ebola. Because of how poorly everything was done from the beginning at the Dallas hospital, people have panicked and are asking for stronger precautions. If the Dallas hospital had handled everything right from the beginning we’d be hearing about Best Medical Care in the World, and hero nurses, and seeing videos of hospital drills and how well they prepare everyone. That kind of thing.
The Pale Scot
So has anyone else not heard about the parrot that was returned to his British owner after 4 years, he left with a posh English accent and returned speaking spanish, or am I the last one?
Suzanne
@Violet: Hospitals are disgusting. Like Motel 6 with medgases. I am interested to know more about the four facilities that do full bio containment, and what the units are like.
Violet
@The Pale Scot: Yeah, I read about that. Did you hear about the stoned sheep?
In the you-can’t-make-this-stuff-up category, the farm shop’s manager’s name is Nellie Budd.
cckids
@Suzanne:
Yeah. We’ve been living with it for 6 years now, my son has both MRSA and Pseudomonas, which flare up from time to time. He acquired both in a hospital, and one or the other will take him some day. We made the decision about 18 months ago to not hospitalize him anymore; his veins won’t support a PICC line at all or even an IV for any amount of time, so the most effective antibiotics aren’t available to him anymore. I have a love/hate relationship with medical staff; they constitute both the best & worst people I’ve known.
And, in my experience, doctors are far, FAR worse about following protocols than nurses. I remember a study from years ago, a hospital trying to reduce transmission of infections was testing various means of transmission. The worst offender was doctor’s neckties. They’d lean over a patient’s bed, then go to the next room & the next . . .
cckids
@Suzanne: Rachel did a segment last week on (I think) the Omaha facility, she interviewed the director. They autoclave EVERYTHING. The instruments, the linens, the trash before they incinerate it. It was very interesting.
Gretchen
@thruppence: @thruppence: Are there children involved? Can you move somewhere less expensive than SF? Good luck in this difficult time. I hope the new job goes well.
? Martin
@cckids: That was a great segment. Sobering to learn we only have 9 beds in the country for ebola patients, and 4 are currently filled.
We need some infrastructure built. Now.
The Pale Scot
@Violet: Damned lucky sheep
parrot return recreation
JR in WV
@Violet:
I don’t think Miss Pham flew anywhere, it was only the second nurse that flew to Cleveland…
JR in WV
@? Martin:
Hell yes to this. We have enough hospital beds for the average patient load, almost, but not quite. When my wife was in hospital, we saw that it took about 20 minutes after an empty bed was sanitized after a patient was moved out for a new patient to show up.
If a truly communicable disease like avian flu hits this country, we’ll need every high school and motel to become hospitals where ill people can be cared for, because the hospitals are full of people with heart attacks, pneumonia, cancer, etc, etc.
Violet
@JR in WV: I know Pham didn’t fly. My wording was poor. The “she” referred to Vinson. But Pham wasn’t sick prior to Vinson flying. That was my point.
Edit: To be clear, Pham did fly after diagnosis, when they moved her to NIH (I think). She was in full containment suit, etc.
Lynn Dee
Actually I’m sick of both “nerd” and “dork” and the mad dash by everyone and his brother to claim to be one or the other. So, no. “Upnerd” doesn’t do it for me.
schtum
It smells like upnerd in here.