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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Hard Knox Life

Hard Knox Life

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I have not paid much attention to this whole never ending Amanda Knox saga, but to the uninitiated like me, it sure seems like she has been tried about 45 times now and they just keep trying her until the come to a verdict they like. Am I right, am I wrong, is this just because their legals system is so different, and does anyone have a link to an informative primer that can explain some of this stuff?

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247Comments

  2. 2.

    Mike J

    When a white girl is the defendant, the American media is shocked at a justice system that could railroad somebody.

  3. 3.

    srv

    I think all you really need to know is: Italiian Justice System or Maury Povich Show?

    Nothing else really matters.

  4. 4.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I’ve paid very little (which is to say, virtually NO) attention to it myself, but I gotta tell you, John, that is one great thread title! It’s worth her maybe being extradited and maybe having to stand trial again* just so you could come up with that.

    *(In all fairness, I don’t imagine Amanda would agree.)

  5. 5.

    Seanly

    It does seem like the prosecutor can just keep trying this case until he gets what he wants. The entire system seems like much more of a kangaroo court then ours.

    If I was Ms. Knox, I would move somewhere that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with Italy.

  7. 7.

    Calouste

    Oh dear, this is going to be a whole thread of Americans whose knowledge of the Italian justice system can be written on the back of a postage stamp ranting about how bad the Italian justice system is, with some casual racism thrown in, because if a justice system is not based on the Anglo-Saxon system, it can’t be fair, right?. At least in Italy suspects make it to the courts instead of being murdered in the streets by the cops.

  9. 9.

    Adam L Silverman

    John,

    Read this:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/07/the-monster-of-florence/304981/

    It’ll provide a quick primer on why the Italian criminal justice system is stuck in a loop on this. It’s especially interesting, despite being about a different case, because many of the investigators and prosecutors involved in screwing up the Monster of Florence case are the same ones that have repeatedly screwed up the Knox case. If you’d prefer, the full length book is available as an ebook and there’s also a documentary on the case. Any of these will give you a good understanding of the dysfunction that’s causing the Knox feedback loop.

  10. 10.

    celticdragonchick

    A retired FBI supervisor has looked at the case extensively and declared any agents working under him who tried to bring charges on such flimsy and fabricated evidence (and physically assulated her during interrogation as the Italian investigators did) would have been brought up on charges themselves:

    I had heard snippets about the Knox case from the news, and believed that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were certainly guilty. But then I began to hear statements from the press that contradicted known facts. Wanting to resolve the conflicts, I looked into the case out of curiosity. The more I looked, the more I was troubled by what I found. So I looked deeper, and I ended up examining every bit of information I could find (and there’s a lot of it). The more I investigated, the more I realized that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito could not have had anything to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher. Moreover, one reason that they were falsely convicted was that every rule of good investigation was violated.

    I spent years of my life working on cases in the federal courts, from simple murder to mass shootings to weapons of mass destruction. In the U.S., the totality of the evidence and the hunches of the investigators in this matter would not have been sufficient to get a search warrant, much less take somebody to trial. The case is completely flawed in every way. The physical evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is wrong, contrived, misinterpreted, and (to put it kindly) misstated. The other “evidence” is made up of (embarrassingly naïve) hunches and bias. The “DNA” evidence is particularly inaccurate. The alleged motive and modus operandi of Knox/Sollecito is so tortured (and constantly-changing) that it defies belief.

    “FACTS DETERMINE CONCLUSIONS”—The universal truism of investigation. The instant that one’s conclusions determine or change the facts, you have corrupted the judicial system.

    I have been a young investigator, and I have supervised eager but inexperienced young investigators. Young or inexperienced investigators have a tendency to believe their own hunches. This is dangerous, because uneducated hunches are usually wrong. Hunches are not bad, they just need to be allowed to die a natural death when evidence proves them wrong. The sign of an investigation run amok is when an initial hunch is nurtured and kept on life support long after evidence should have killed it. This case is just such a situation. In the Knox case, the investigator openly states:

    “We knew she was guilty of murder without physical evidence.” — Edgardo Giobbi, Investigator.

    Then, when physical evidence came in that did not support their story, they simply changed their story. And their suspects. And their murder weapons. And the motives. (If there was ever a ‘smoking gun’ in this case; that statement was it.)

    I will only say of the interrogation, that if any FBI Agents I supervised had conducted that interrogation in the U.S., I would have had them indicted. I am not surprised that Amanda made incriminating and conflicting statements in such a horrible situation. I am more surprised that under that duress, she didn’t make more incriminating (but ultimately false) statements.

    http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI.html

  13. 13.

    feebog

    I read the entire Wiki entry and it sounds like a convoluted mess to me. How the hell do you convict someone when there is absolutely no forensic or DNA evidence to connect them to the crime?

  14. 14.

    gopher2b

    I did a hard read on it one weekend and it’s pretty clear she is being railroaded. If the Italian Supreme Court affirms the decision (not sure what they call it), the US won’t extradite her because it’s basically double jeopardy here. That being said, she’ll never be able to leave the U.S. again (she probably doesn’t want to, anyway).

  15. 15.

    celticdragonchick

    @gopher2b:

    Yeah, I think it wold be a real heavy lift for Italy to get extradition. Maybe not imossible…but I wouldn’t bet on it. Treaties do have force of law, but our own constitutonal protections do take priority on our soil.

  16. 16.

    Mike J

    @feebog:

    How the hell do you convict someone when there is absolutely no forensic or DNA evidence to connect them to the crime?

    Life isn’t an episode of CSI. Most crimes don’t have lab evidence.

  17. 17.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @Calouste: Good point. And unlike Texas, there is no death penalty. A person unjustly convicted of murder in Italy would at least be alive to appeal.

    Texas guy was executed for a fire that killed his kids. The local experts “proved” it was arson. When real scientists examined the evidence, they showed it was not. He was executed anyway.

    Rick Perry wanted to look tough, or something.

  19. 19.

    Mike in NC

    It’s like the House Republicans voting 65 times to repeal PPACA: they do it because they can.

  20. 20.

    Violet

    Has the Italian court ruled yet? I thought they were supposed to rule this morning. It’s getting late in Italy.

  21. 21.

    gussie

    I think it’s racist to talk about ‘casual racism’ against Italians, like they’re so genetically disposed to being lackadaisical that they don’t even rise to being the targets of a more rigorous, formal racism.

  26. 26.

    celticdragonchick

    @Mike J:

    In this case, they used shoddy evidence we would never have allowed because of cross contamination and uncertain provenance.

    Also, the prosecutor presented wild eyed theories (unfortunately, they do that here as well) of sexual sadism, sacrifices etc etc which he made up in his head…mixed in with a healthy does of anti-Americanism and parochialism.

    As the FBI agent above says, Amanda would never have been arrested in the first place in America (one issue he brings up is that according to our own crime stats…women committing homicides with a stabbing instument or a knife are almost utterly unknown in the first place, and when they have occured were in a gang context. Investigators, based on that alone, would not have looked at her)

  27. 27.

    Cervantes

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Why do you call it a “feedback loop”? Is it positive or negative?

    The answer may be obvious — but not to me, as I know nothing about the case. Thanks.

  28. 28.

    celticdragonchick

    @joel hanes:

    True…hence the derogatory slut shaming “Foxy Knoxy” taunt that was used against her, as if her attractiveness added to her supposed guilt.

  29. 29.

    Mike J

    @celticdragonchick:

    As the FBI agent above says, Amanda would never have been arrested in the first place in America

    Again, white girl being railraoded. I admit, that’s pretty unlikely in the US.

    The McMartin preschool case is proof that the cops, even in the US, will try to railroad anybody, even a grandmotherly type. Once the prosecutors have decided on your guilt, all bets are off. Anybody who believes that this couldn’t happen here is dreaming.

  31. 31.

    srv

    @Calouste:

    Oh dear, this is going to be a whole thread of Americans whose knowledge of [insert topic here] can be written on the back of a postage stamp ranting about how bad it is, with some casual racism thrown in

    My nomination for BJ’s Raison d’être.

  34. 34.

    celticdragonchick

    @Germy Shoemangler:

    Yes.

    He has already been convicted and is serving 16 years.

    I have no idea why they want to add more people to the mix, except for the original bizarre theory the prosecution had where Amanda, her boyfriend and a West African drifter…who liked to break into homes and steal things (including knives)…that they did not know and had never met would somehow all come together and have a depraved sex party where Meredith was killed.

    Because reasons…and you know American women are crazy sluts who are violent.

    Anyway, the drifter, who had broken into the home and killed the victim, is in jail.

  35. 35.

    Patrick

    @celticdragonchick:

    As the FBI agent above says, Amanda would never have been arrested in the first place in America

    You are probably right since she is white. But you may want to ask some African-Americans in our country, Ferguson comes to mind…

  38. 38.

    celticdragonchick

    @Patrick:

    The racial angle is probably unwarrented here in this instance.

    The actuarial data is that women in North America simply don’t stab people to death outside of 80’s paranoid thrillers starring Glenn Close.

    When my spouse took a class on this stuff working on her forensic biology degree, she told me the psychology of violence shows that knives and stabbing weapons are almost always a male weapon as an extension of the penis.

    Guns are an extension of the fist, however.

    In any event, women really tend not to use knives.

  41. 41.

    Woodrowfan

    I hope Obama tells the Italians to pound sand. the trial was bad enough it could have been held in Texas…

  43. 43.

    Lavocat

    @gussie: I did a spittake at that comment because 1) it’s funny as hell and 2) I honestly cannot tell if you are joking or not – which is even funnier.

  45. 45.

    celticdragonchick

    @Mike J:

    Martha Stewart went to the can…and the technical case against her was far from clear in whether a crime was ever committed in the first place.

    Depending on the circumstance, being a white, 20 year old female college student can work for you(she’s a good kid from a good family!)…or it can be used against you (she’s an entitled brat and we are going to teach her lesson she will never forget!)

    *(and the idiot Virgina alcohol board cops who curb stomped an African American student last week went after two white girls in their car last year who had bought water and cookie dough…and who thought they were being robbed by maniacs and drove off. They won a major lawsuit against the state, and I suspect Virgina is going to eat it again on the case from last week)

  46. 46.

    Ruckus

    @Mike J:
    This. I know absolutely nothing about this case, other than what I’ve read here. But to suppose that someone in the US would not be falsely prosecuted is laughable. Not funny though. As someone up thread pointed out, here often cops try to serve as all three parts of the justice system. In a manner of seconds they play the investigators, the judge/jury and the prison system, although many times that last part is dispensed with. Forcefully. That a different country has a different system is understandable, seeing as how ours works so well. Or maybe we have a different system seeing as how theirs works so well. And as someone else pointed out, Italy has no death penalty, a claim not every state can make.

    IOW it’s pretty cheeky for us to dis on someone else’s “justice” system.

  47. 47.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @Mike J:

    I think people know that plenty of Americans get railroaded right here in the good ol’ US of A. But usually the people who get railroaded here have a “one and done.” It’s the fact that Knox can apparently be tried over and over again on the same charges using the same evidence that’s weird to people. Generally speaking, double jeopardy prevents prosecutors in the US from doing that.

  49. 49.

    catclub

    @Seanly:

    The entire system seems like much more of a kangaroo court then ours.

    I think MikeJ got it in one.

    When a white girl is the defendant, the American media is shocked at a justice system that could railroad somebody.

    Have you not noticed that our kangaroo courts convict innocent people of murder AND execute them. How much worse is the Italian system again?

  50. 50.

    trollhattan

    @Woodrowfan:

    the trial was bad enough it could have been held in Texas…

    And so now the Italy-bashing really starts.

    Over time I read quite a bit about the case, investigation and trials–Seattle Times had good coverage, for one–and the prosecution’s case always seemed stitched together with masking tape and spider webs. Seriously doubt we’d allow extradition if they ask, but holy crap she’s been dealing with this for essentially her entire adult life.

  51. 51.

    Sloegin

    I don’t really get why extradition treaties might trump double jeopardy – supremacy clause, or something else?

  53. 53.

    catclub

    @Patrick:

    Ferguson comes to mind…

    Baton Rouge LA prosecutor writes long letter to the editor to apologize for sending man to prison unjustly for 30 years. State is refusing to pay any compensation and waiting for him to die of lung cancer, so his heirs will have no claim either.

    Why is this news? Because usually the prosecutor never apologizes and backs up the state.

  54. 54.

    celticdragonchick

    @catclub:

    How much worse is the Italian system again?

    We don’t let the prosecution have second and third bites at the apple with the same charges and same evidence.

    The prosecution gets one chance, and one chance only (hung jury being the only exception).

    Italy allows both sides to appeal verdicts.

    Not saying it is better or worse, just that it is simply not compatible with English Common Law tradition where individuals have that protection from the state.

    Can you imagine getting a not guilty verdict…and then spending years as the prosecution gets to appeal and go after you with a limitless budget while you fritter away the last of your life savings?

  56. 56.

    catclub

    @Sloegin:

    I don’t really get why extradition treaties might trump double jeopardy

    Well the double jeopardy law is that US courts cannot try you twice on the same charge. How many times have US courts tried her?

  58. 58.

    celticdragonchick

    @catclub:

    “Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested,” the treaty states.

    And Knox was, according to M. Cherif Bassiouni, a former U.N. lawyer and international extradition law expert.

    American and Italian officials may interpret the treaty’s double-jeopardy clause differently based on their own judicial systems, but Bassiouni said no interpretation would pass muster.

    “Whatever the interpretation of article VI may be … Amanda Knox would not be extraditable to Italy should Italy seek her extradition because she was retried for the same acts, the same facts, and the same conduct,” Bassiouni wrote in an Oxford University Press blog post. “Her case was reviewed three times with different outcomes even though she was not actually tried three times.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/amanda-knox-extradition/

  59. 59.

    Karen in GA

    From what I understand, it’s not double jeopardy because this is all still the same trial process that isn’t finished yet. Evidently the prosecutors can appeal an acquittal/overturned conviction, which they did; upon the prosecutors’ appeal the conviction was reinstated, which led to where they are now. I think if they uphold the conviction, this is the end of it. Not sure where they go if the conviction is overturned — if it’s over, or if it goes back to a lower court yet again.

    I think that might be an issue with extradition — the US would have to respect the Italian court’s process, and going by Italian law, there’s no double-jeopardy here.

    ETA: @celticdragonchick: This.

  60. 60.

    grandpa john

    @Germy Shoemangler: It has already been appealed . The Italian supreme court threw out the whole thing because of the misconduct and bias of the prosecution and declared her not guilty. The prosecution then retried the case with the same biases and tainted so called evidence and got a conviction in her absence. Thus the return to the supreme court

  61. 61.

    Warren Terra

    All you need to know is that the only evidence against Knox was (1) there was forensic evidence that she had been in her apartment; (2) she’s wasn’t a good Catholic Italian girl.

    That was enough to convict, under one of several increasingly bizarre and mutually incompatible theories proffered by the prosecutor.

    ETA the saddest part of all this, to my mind, is the family of the victim. The corrupt and insane prosecutor has somehow managed to convince them to continue to believe in Knox’s guilt, with the result that for a decade now they have tortured themselves (and the tabloids have eagerly helped torture them) in a quest for Knox’s blood. I don’t blame them – they lost a beloved daughter and it’s natural to seek justice and vengeance, and to irrationally succumb to an opportunist’s lies. But it’s an especially sad part of the whole affair, an aspect of the prosecutor’s perfidy that doesn’t get mentioned enough.

  62. 62.

    SmallAxe

    Total railroad job. I studied in Italy myself as college kid and have read it all on this case from the jump. They’ve got the murderer already in jail Rudy Guede… he did it, he’s been convicted. He did it alone, there’s no supporting evidence that I’ve seen that he had any help let alone that the potential help came from Amanda and Rafael. The man left a deuce in the toilet after he killed her, you think you do that if you’re hanging out with others in some sex murder? Whole case against her is a sham and I think it’s mostly due to her weird reactions the first day.

  63. 63.

    Tommy

    @Calouste:

    Oh dear, this is going to be a whole thread of Americans whose knowledge of the Italian justice system can be written on the back of a postage stamp …

    I can’t even write what I know on a postage stamp because I know ZERO of the Italian justice system.

    I have followed this story out of the fact it is all over the places I read news. All I know is dead people were in her flat. I’ve done some pretty fucked up things in my life, but dead people were never in my house. Just saying …..

  64. 64.

    Violet

    I feel bad for the family of the girl who was murdered, Meredith Kercher. It’s bad enough to lose your daughter like that, but to have the case turned into a circus and having it go on forever has to be grueling for them. It would be nice for them if they could find some peace after all this time.

  65. 65.

    Emma

    Can we cut out the “but American courts do it too!” crap? Yes, they do. Repeatedly. I’m sure it happens in France, India, and Ubekistan too. So?

    It is actually possible to criticize something on its own merit. I find reprehensible that the prosecution keeps trying again and again, even after the Italian courts of appeals have handed them their asses on a sling.

  66. 66.

    Cacti

    @Seanly:

    The entire system seems like much more of a kangaroo court then ours.

    When I read statements like this, then think back to how the late Trayvon Martin was essentially put on trial for his own shooting death, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  68. 68.

    rlrr

    @Mike in NC:

    One of the perks of being governor of Texas is that you get to execute as many people as you want. Just ask George W. Bush.

    Isn’t signing off on executions one of the few actual duties of a Texas governor? I remember reading that most of the chief executive type duties in Texas are actually handled by the Lt. Governor…

  70. 70.

    Warren Terra

    @Emma:

    Can we cut out the “but American courts do it too!” crap? Yes, they do. Repeatedly. I’m sure it happens in France, India, and Ubekistan too. So?

    It is actually possible to criticize something on its own merit.

    This.

    Also: we don’t hesitate to criticize instances of railroading in American courts, especially when (as here) there are profound injustices associated with the prosecutor concocting lurid theories and painting the accused as outlandish incomprehensible monsters instead of bringing evidence to bear. Think of the West Memphis Three, for example.

  72. 72.

    kc

    @Tommy:

    . All I know is dead people were in her flat. I’ve done some pretty fucked up things in my life, but dead people were never in my house. Just saying …

    What ARE you saying?

  74. 74.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    Ignore it. Italy’s “justice” system makes that of most dictatorships looks sane and fair.

  76. 76.

    trollhattan

    Speaking of speculative justice, what would have been the outcome had the poor infant been accidentally shot, not ODd on mom’s breast milk?

    A Citrus Heights mother whose infant son overdosed on drugs contained in her breast milk was sentenced Friday to more than 12 years in prison in his death.

  77. 77.

    Karen in GA

    @Tommy:

    All I know is dead people were in her flat. I’ve done some pretty fucked up things in my life, but dead people were never in my house. Just saying …..

    Just saying what. exactly? Since her roommate was dead in their apartment, she’s guilty, simply because it was her apartment?

  81. 81.

    Violet

    @Tommy: Who the hell cares? You look at the merits of the case. There could be fifty dead people in your house and you still could be innocent and completely unconnected. Maybe one of your relatives who has a key decided to commit mass murder. Just because it’s your house or the apartment you share with someone does not make you automatically guilty.

  82. 82.

    Cacti

    When noting the supposed superiority of the US criminal justice system, it’s also worth mentioning that Italy abolished the death penalty in 1948, while the US still maintains this barbaric practice, despite having, tried, convicted and given death sentences to no less than 151 innocent people since 1970.

  83. 83.

    Karen in GA

    @Tommy: No, but a close friend of the family once walked into her kitchen to find her husband dead on the floor. Using your reasoning, she probably killed him and made it look like a heart attack, simply because he was dead in her home.

    Now, what if someone was dead in your apartment, there was little-to-no reliable evidence linking you to the death, and another person had already been convicted and sentenced for killing this person? Would you still have a lot to answer for?

  84. 84.

    daveNYC

    @catclub: In the Italian system, they seem to be able to retry a case until they get the result they want.

    Christ, just because our justice system is fucked up doesn’t mean that the Italian system isn’t a complete smoking hole in the ground.

  86. 86.

    dmsilev

    @Tommy: So what? Sure, if your roommate is found dead in your apartment the police will want to talk to you, but in the absence of any, you know, reasonable evidence, why should you be charged with anything?

  88. 88.

    celticdragonchick

    @Warren Terra:

    ETA the saddest part of all this, to my mind, is the family of the victim. The corrupt and insane prosecutor has somehow managed to convince them to continue to believe in Knox’s guilt, with the result that for a decade now they have tortured themselves (and the tabloids have eagerly helped torture them) in a quest for Knox’s blood. I don’t blame them – they lost a beloved daughter and it’s natural to seek justice and vengeance, and to irrationally succumb to an opportunist’s lies. But it’s an especially sad part of the whole affair, an aspect of the prosecutor’s perfidy that doesn’t get mentioned enough.

    This cannot be stressed enough. Absolutely spot on.

    I never studied in Italy, although the geology dept at Guilford College has fascinating program in Italy every year lead by one of my favorite professors (geology, wine making and history/culture for three weeks)

    I was seriously considering it, but this affair made me reconsider.

    You can talk all you like about how bad police and prosecutors are here in America (and they are, and I talk about it all the time), but when you leave the country, you really are depending on the good will of your host, and that can be really fucking dangerous.

  89. 89.

    NeenerNeener

    If I remember correctly, she was at her boyfriend’s apartment all night smoking pot, went home the next day and found her roommate dead.
    No proof of a sex party at her apartment at all; that seems to be a fiction invented by the prosecutors.

    I’ve read various accounts and think she’s innocent, my sister has read the same accounts and is convinced she’s guilty.

  90. 90.

    Violet

    @Karen in GA: Agreed. And the snide, insinuating “Just saying….” is worse than high school. That’s what bratty kids say when they want to suggest something about someone but they don’t want to come out and say it. “I don’t want to say that it was her fault she was raped, but she does wear really short skirts. Just saying….” Blaming the victim.

  93. 93.

    brent

    @Tommy:

    No. But you ever have a dead person in your apartment?

    I can answer yes to that Tommy. I have had a person die in my apartment. It was tragic and disturbing and I had nothing to do with her death. It happened in 2002 and it still upsets me to this day.

    You keep repeating that question as if it actually counts as some sort of actual argument. It doesn’t. One either did something wrong or they didn’t. Secondarily, there is either evidence of someone doing something wrong or there isn’t. But being in the area of something wrong is not something that ANYONE needs to answer for as a brute fact.

    Your suggestion otherwise is, to be frank, just weird and shitty reasoning but in the larger scheme of things, your commentary (as well as my own) is not especially important in a real world context. The astonishing and disturbing thing is that this weird and shitty reasoning seems to be the foundation of the prosecutor’s argument and that is, unfortunately, consequential.

  94. 94.

    Germy Shoemangler

    Why did Rudy only get 16 years? Why not life in prison? I really don’t know much about this case, only what I’m reading here.

  95. 95.

    celticdragonchick

    @Tommy:

    Yep.

    My grandfather died of emphysema in the house where I lived. I was the one who had to check to see if he was dead.

    The cops didn’t come in and accuse us of wild sex parties.

  98. 98.

    Cacti

    @celticdragonchick:

    A retired FBI supervisor has looked at the case extensively and declared any agents working under him who tried to bring charges on such flimsy and fabricated evidence (and physically assulated her during interrogation as the Italian investigators did) would have been brought up on charges themselves

    Really?

    How many FBI agents went to prison for COINTELPRO?

  99. 99.

    Roger Moore

    @celticdragonchick:

    Italy tried and convicted 6 geologists for not predicting an earthquake

    That’s not quite correct. They didn’t just fail to predict an earthquake, they actually said that a few minor earthquakes weren’t a predictor of a bigger upcoming quake. When that bigger quake did happen, they were accused of having lulled people into a false sense of security. It’s still ridiculous- small earthquakes happen all the time, and most of them aren’t a sign of a bigger quake that’s about to strike- but it was a bit more than just failure to predict something that’s inherently unpredictable.

  100. 100.

    Mike J

    @celticdragonchick:

    The prosecution gets one chance, and one chance only (hung jury being the only exception).

    Although the Feds can charge somebody who has been cleared by the locals. Different charge arising from the same action. Which isn’t technically the same as double jeopardy but could sure feel like it to the person charged.

  103. 103.

    Cacti

    @Craigo:

    Just pointing out the if we’re appealing to former FBI agents as a source of authority for by the book, straight laced, criminal investigations…

    They have a pretty terrible record for that sort of thing.

  104. 104.

    celticdragonchick

    @Roger Moore:

    They didn’t just fail to predict an earthquake, they actually said that a few minor earthquakes weren’t a predictor of a bigger upcoming quake.

    Um, that is basically failing to predict an earthquake…at least from the perspective of us in the geology field.

    There is no real predictive model for earthquakes under most conditions(you can use programs like reactiva to examine how old faults may reactivate with injections of water and increasing strain or stress, but you simply don’t have that kind of actual data at depth), and the scientists were absolutely correct when they said that a few small quakes did not necessarily mean that something big was coming.

  106. 106.

    celticdragonchick

    @Cacti:

    How so?

    Their record on murder investigations is pretty damned good from I understand. I would take the FBI over most local LE any day of the week.

  107. 107.

    celticdragonchick

    @Mike J:

    Different charges and (often) different evidence, although they may arise from the same set of circumstances.

  108. 108.

    Cacti

    @Craigo:

    Oh, no. It’s ongoing too.

    This past year, the US Attorney’s office had to dismiss 28 drug indictments when it became clear that the G men had been tampering with evidence.

  109. 109.

    Barbara

    What annoys me most about this case is that there is zero evidence there was a hot sex game that turned violent, but they had to have some explanation for why Knox and Sollecito could possibly have killed Kercher in league with Guede (the guy who was convicted). So they made it up.

  110. 110.

    Barbara

    @Cacti: He was stealing evidence (at least if we are talking about the same guy) and using to feed his own habit.

  111. 111.

    celticdragonchick

    @Cacti:

    How many FBI agents went to prison for COINTELPRO?

    You do know that people have actually had entire careers that started and then ended with retirement since that happened, right?

    Christ, I was born in 1967 when that shit happened I am not a spring chicken anymore by any means.

    I have brought COINTELPRO up in arguments more than once over at LGF, but let’s not pretend that it has anything at all to do with this case or the professional opinion of an experienced investigator.

  112. 112.

    SFAW

    Wow, what a great thread. But the one I’m REALLY hoping for is where we decide whether Jodi Arias should be executed, or merely deported to Somalia.

    @srv:

    You have to be kidding.

    Germy might have more important things to do than follow the case as avidly as some apparently have.

  113. 113.

    Craigo

    I will briefly note that European countries refuse to extradite requested persons who would be liable to the death penalty in the United States, because it’s a violation of their law and a treaty does not contravene that.

    For the same reason, the US should not extradite anyone who has been acquitted by evidentiary insufficiency – even if that judgment would not be final in the Italian system.

  115. 115.

    Karen in GA

    @Craigo: He doesn’t have to be. He has to be an authority on the Italian judicial system.

    If she tried to argue against extradition and claimed the Italian process was a case of double jeopardy, I don’t see how any of her own lawyers saying, “No, here’s how our process works, she wasn’t put on trial twice for the same crime” would help her.

  116. 116.

    Cacti

    @celticdragonchick:

    You do know that people have actually had entire careers that started and then ended with retirement since that happened, right?

    Christ, I was born in 1967 when that shit happened I am not a spring chicken anymore by any means.

    I have brought COINTELPRO up in arguments more than once over at LGF, but let’s not pretend that it has anything at all to do with this case or the professional opinion of an experienced investigator.

    Any time I hear an LEO talk about how they would have brought charges against another LEO, experience suggests that they’re shoveling it with both hands. The FBI hardly has a reputation for its vigorous internal policing of its dirty members.

    J. Edgar Hoover might have been the dirtiest American LEO who ever lived, and the bureau headquarters building is still named after him.

  119. 119.

    Mart

    She is off the hook – five judges said she and ex boyfriend in the clear for murder. Gave her 3 years for slander covered by time served.

    We all good now?

  120. 120.

    celticdragonchick

    @Cacti:

    Any time I hear an LEO talk about how they would have brought charges against another LEO

    The Italian police actually struck her during interrogation, in addition to other practices that would have been potentially felonius conduct here in the US.

    So, believe what you like, but don’t pretend you are argung in good faith. You have your agenda and facts be damned.

  123. 123.

    Cacti

    @celticdragonchick:

    The Italian police actually struck her during interrogation, in addition to other practices that would have been potentially felonius conduct here in the US.

    Ummm yeah.

    American cops wouldn’t dream of assaulting or otherwise manhandling a criminal suspect. Especially a non-white one.

    We really crack down on cops who behave like that.

    LOL

  125. 125.

    celticdragonchick

    @Cacti:

    American cops wouldn’t dream of assaulting or otherwise manhandling a criminal suspect. Especially a non-white one.

    See logical fallacies: Argument from Incredulity, Equivocation (using the FBI or other law enforcement agencies interchangeably as suits your purpose), Appeal to the Stone.

  128. 128.

    Cacti

    @celticdragonchick:

    The Italian police actually struck her during interrogation, in addition to other practices that would have been potentially felonius conduct here in the US.

    And again, where would these practices be potentially felonius?

    Tamir Rice was shot on sight by Cleveland Police.

    ETA: No charges for the shooter after 4 months of investigation plus video evidence.

  131. 131.

    celticdragonchick

    @Cacti:

    You seem to have missed the bit where the Cleveland police are not the FBI. Please carry on…

  135. 135.

    Bobby Thomson

    I don’t know if she did the murder, but she did try to railroad the Cameroonian.

  137. 137.

    Tommy

    @Suzanne: Come on you know I am not slut shaming her. You should know that. Lady can do as she wishes. Heck I might find myself with her and another men. No issues with that. But a dead body showed up in her house. Let me say that again a dead body. Have you ever been partying with a person, people, and a dead body was found?

  138. 138.

    burnspbesq

    @feebog:

    How the hell do you convict someone when there is absolutely no forensic or DNA evidence to connect them to the crime?

    I’m sure there are some prosecutors in Texas who would be happy to ‘splain it to you.

  140. 140.

    shortstop

    @Tommy: Tell us what you’re trying to say. Don’t just keep repeating the same question, please. Which of these is your point?

    –When a dead body is found in someone’s house, everybody else in that house must have had something to do with it.
    –Whew, man, dead bodies! Must have been a helluva party! I thought pools of vomit were bad.
    –Something else? Tell us.

  142. 142.

    Karen in GA

    @Tommy: Do you not want to argue about this anymore, or do you just not want to argue with me? Because I’m just asking you what you’d have to “answer for” if there was a dead person in your apartment, little-to-no evidence linking you to the death, and another person was arrested, tried, and convicted for the murder.

  143. 143.

    kc

    @shortstop:

    –Whew, man, dead bodies! Must have been a helluva party! I thought pools of vomit were bad.

    I dunno, I’d rather clean up a dead body than pools of vomit.

    KIDDING!

  146. 146.

    Violet

    @Tommy:

    Have you ever been partying with a person, people, and a dead body was found?

    What are you even talking about? From her account:

    By Knox’s account, having spent the night with Sollecito, she arrived at Via della Pergola 7 on the morning of 2 November,

    She says wasn’t even home. So what does her “partying with a person, people” have to do with anything?

    Let me ask you the same question. Have you ever been partying with someone or a group of people in one place and a dead body was found in some other unrelated place where you were not? Shame on you for “partying.” Guess that makes you a suspect in that person’s death.

  147. 147.

    NeenerNeener

    As I understand it from accounts I have read…Knox spent the night at Sollecito’s apartment getting baked on the night of the murder; Kercher was home alone when Guede showed up and killed her. The wild party was all in the mind of the Italian prosecutor (and a commentor here, I guess).

  148. 148.

    Tommy

    @Karen in GA: I can not first imagine there would ever be a dead person in my house. Let’s start there. Is Amanda Knox guilty, I don’t know. I wasn’t there. But when was the last time you had a dead person in hour household?

  149. 149.

    Hob

    @Tommy: Why do you keep going on about “partying”? Did you bother reading anything about this case at all?

    Knox’s story is not that she “was partying, and a dead body was found.” It’s that she wasn’t home that day at all— she was hanging out with her boyfriend at his place— and that she came home and found her roommate dead.

    The only person who said Knox was anywhere the apartment the night of the murder was Guede, the guy who was later convicted of the crime (and the only person with physical evidence placing him at the scene). The idea that there was some kind of wild party going on there was all conjecture by the prosecutors.

    You’ve said some bizarre shit here before, but this might be the craziest and most offensive. You’re accusing someone of murder because you can’t be bothered to find out what the hell you’re talking about – and then you’re like “I won’t keep arguing because I have better things to do.”

  150. 150.

    shortstop

    Well, okay, but have any of you ever come home to find a dead body in your house? I know I haven’t! My point, I think, is crystal clear.

  151. 151.

    Violet

    @Tommy: What is your problem? Can you not imagine someone breaking into a house and murdering someone and then someone else coming home to find that it has happened? Is that completely outside of your abilities to imagine?

    Why do you keep repeating “dead body in the house” like a mantra? What do you mean by it? Why does a dead body in the house mean she’s guilty? Please supply reasoning and evidence.

  152. 152.

    Cacti

    @celticdragonchick:

    If your point is that US law enforcement would get in trouble for hitting an attractive, upper middle class white woman like Amanda Knox, I could agree with that.

    But it seems more like: Italian cops and courts be all crazy compared to our virtuous US ones.

  153. 153.

    Tommy

    @Hob:

    You’ve said some bizarre shit here before, but this might be the craziest and most offensive. You’re accusing someone of murder because you can’t be bothered to find out what the hell you’re talking about – and then you’re like “I won’t keep arguing because I have better things to do.”

    Not sure what “bizarre shit” you want to reference. Please post. Heaven forbid I think she is guilty.

  155. 155.

    Larv

    @Tommy:

    Come on you know I am not slut shaming her.

    Drugs. Group sex. Messed up shit. A dead boddy did not show up.

    Okay, so what do the first two have to do with the rest? Are people who smoke pot and have sex more likely to commit murder, in your opinion? Also, AFAIK there was never any evidence of group sex, that was just the prosecution’s bizarre theory of the murder, base on lurid speculation and the claims of a guy desperately trying to deflect the blame from himself.

  156. 156.

    Violet

    @Tommy:

    Heaven forbid I think she is guilty.

    Do you think she’s guilty? If so, could you please outline your reasons as to why you think she is guilty. I would be interested in seeing your reasoning.

  157. 157.

    Karen in GA

    @Tommy: I answered your oft-repeated “ever have a dead body in your home” question upthread. Others have answered it as well. Now could you please answer my question? This is the third time I’m asking: what would you have to “answer for” if there was a dead person in your apartment, little-to-no evidence linking you to the death, and another person was arrested, tried, and convicted for the murder?

  158. 158.

    Larv

    @Violet: I’m guessing it has something to do with a dead body in the house. And possibly partying. What more do you need? That seems pretty convincing to me.

  160. 160.

    Germy Shoemangler

    The subject of “partying”: I thought American courts were the only ones that equated marijuana use with violent crime. I didn’t know it was a world-wide thing. They find traces of cannabis in someone’s piss and it’s used in court against the defendant (and sometimes the victim).

    Meanwhile, entertainers like Seth Rogen and Seth Macfarlane make pot smoking a part of their persona.

  161. 161.

    shortstop

    @Larv: The sentences are rather hard to untangle, it’s true, but I believe the point Tommy was striving for was that although he has indulged in drugs and group sex, still no dead body turned up in his house — thus there’s a way to do drugs and group sex, and a way not to do them…

    @Tommy: Okay, so you think she’s guilty. You’re entitled to say so. You don’t get to imply that a dead body in her house is plenty of reason to think so without providing other reasoning, though. Can you present any evidence other than that her roommate died in their shared house? Or will you just keep doggedly repeating the same nonsensical “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire!” shit?

  162. 162.

    eemom

    1980s movie trivia quiz: Soho apartment. Dead body. Sign reading “DEAD PERSON ===>”

  166. 166.

    Tree With Water

    Now that she’s off the hook for good, the question becomes: which actress will play her in the inevitable blockbuster film?

  170. 170.

    Karen in GA

    @Violet: I’m going to kill someone, then instead of hiding the body I’m just going to break into someone else’s house while they’re out and leave it there. Because then not only will I not be a suspect, I won’t have done it at all.

  174. 174.

    NeenerNeener

    I still don’t understand why Rudy only got 16 years. For murder?

    Yeah, that bothers me too. Especially since Knox and Sollecito were each sentenced to considerably more than that.

  175. 175.

    shortstop

    @Violet: That would be some seriously fun gaslighting. Except for the person who died. That person wouldn’t think it was humorous at all, probably.

  176. 176.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Tommy:

    But you ever have a dead person in your apartment?

    Yes. Three different ones. And I knew them. I was between the ages of 4 and 8. Do I have a lot to answer for?

  177. 177.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @shortstop: A department store mannequin covered in ketchup. We hide and wait for the anguished wail “what have I done??” then we jump out giggling.

  178. 178.

    kc

    I mean, I expect that if a dead body is found in one’s house, the police are going to look at the surviving occupants very closely. I just hope if they decide to charge someone they have evidence other than, “The body was in her house!”

  179. 179.

    opiejeanne

    @Germy Shoemangler: He originally got 30 years, but had it reduced to 16 for cooperating in testifying against Knox and her boyfriend It should be noted that his original statement did not include their presence in the apartment and at their first trial he did not testify although he was asked to (if I understand this correctly).

    So, they cut him a deal if he’d point the finger at the other two, several months after his trial.

    It’s in the article about him that was linked above.

  184. 184.

    Cervantes

    @celticdragonchick:

    when you leave the country, you really are depending on the good will of your host, and that can be really fucking dangerous.

    True — and some Americans are made to feel the same way in their own country.

  186. 186.

    shortstop

    @Violet: Again, there’s a way to do group sex correctly. And that way does not result in corpses. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand.

  188. 188.

    shortstop

    @Violet: You raise a good point. What happens if you base your orgy in a hotel and somebody turns up dead? Whose fault is it?

  189. 189.

    Ruckus

    @Tommy:
    I’ve had someone die in my arms. I had nothing to do with the cause, I did nothing to further the death of this person, and I am not guilty nor have I been charged or tried for any crime in connection with this death. There were also several other people in the room at the time. So we were all there with a dead body that had been a living one also while we were there.
    Being in a room with a dead person or having one in your house does not make you a criminal. Murdering them does. Being at a party or an event where someone dies does not necessarily make you a murderer unless you caused the death. Which is good because I have also been working sporting events where someone has died. Those times I’ve mentioned made me very sad, but neither made me guilty of any crime.
    You seem to be confusing being a good host and being criminally responsible.

  191. 191.

    Violet

    @shortstop: Probably the hotel’s fault. They own the property. I think so long as its not “your house” you’re in the clear! Tommy’s Rules!

    @Ruckus: I’m getting a bit mixed up on the rules. Do you need to have a dead body at your party to be a good host? Or is that only if there’s group sex. So confused.

  192. 192.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Ruckus:

    You seem to be confusing being a good host and being criminally responsible.

    Well in all fairness, Phil Spector did seem to get them confused, but I digress.

    I still want to know if I’m at risk for the 3 bodies in the 1960s; we are talking about a crime without a statute of limitations, you know.

    @shortstop: It was my understanding as well that the appropriate practice of group sex does not result in corpses. However, I admit that I have not read the manual.

  194. 194.

    shortstop

    @Violet: I guess I’m okay with that. Let the hotel chain corporate office take the fall. I really just don’t want the housekeeping staff blamed.

  195. 195.

    Ruckus

    @Violet:
    When I was younger a dead body at someone’s house meant the party had been a rousing bash. No dead body meant it could have been grand but not a chart topper.
    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
    I’m guessing by your comment that no, like me there was no crime committed. Or it could be like the 2 kids who lived 2 blocks from me and came home from school to find a murder/suicide, their parents.

  196. 196.

    Violet

    @shortstop: In Indiana businesses are people so I think the hotel could be the murderer. But I think you’re missing the real issue. A dead body! And partying and group sex!

  197. 197.

    shortstop

    @Ruckus: You seem to know a lot of people who turn up dead. I’m just saying how many of us know that many people who turn up dead?

  201. 201.

    Violet

    @Ruckus: See, you’re a good host! I hope that means you had group sex too. All that at someone else’s house, of course. Otherwise you’re guilty. Them’s the rules.

    @shortstop: I mean. Think of all the places where no dead bodies turned up. I think I’m making myself clear!

  203. 203.

    Ruckus

    @shortstop:
    It is possible. Half my heritage is Sicilian. With reported mafia overtones. A couple of generations ago but still.
    I have been going to funerals and wakes for over 55 yrs seemingly every 1-3 yrs. Between family, employees, friends, fellow workers, the list is long.

  205. 205.

    Ruckus

    @Ruckus:
    It’s also possible that I’m a carrier but I really doubt it. No black hood or scythe.

    ETA That’s only partially true. I used to have a scythe, had been grandfathers, he used it to cut weeds and I got it when he passed. Been long gone now. The scythe and granddad.

  207. 207.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @satby: I’m a bit annoyed that he’s not here to provide assistance. But I suspect he has an actual life.

    After finishing our Friday evening (at home) beer, told M. Q. I was headed back “to see how the group sex was going” and his response was “have fun.” Would have been an interesting overheard out of context exchange, I imagine.

  208. 208.

    Violet

    @Ruckus: If you’ve been around all those dead people for that long then you’ve got a lot to answer for.

    @Karen in GA: If it’s happening in your house it sure seems like you are. I mean, it’s your house!

  209. 209.

    grandpa john

    @opiejeanne: So USA is not the only country with corrupt prosecutors and legalized perjury,Having spent some time in Italy during my short span in the Navy, I had thought that there were some parts I would like to go back and visit,but I think the details of this corruption of the judicial system has changed my mind. Travel abroad can be risky.

  216. 216.

    Violet

    @Ruckus: Well some people might think you’re guilty. Proximity and all.

    @satby: You certainly do! I mean, you were in the same house as a dead body. How many people have had a dead body in their house?

  218. 218.

    Ruckus

    @Violet:
    I really should apologize to Tommy. None of those people were in my house while they were dead. Many of them before yes but none after.

  221. 221.

    Gin & Tonic

    I’m almost sorry I was out to dinner with my wife and not reading this thread. Almost.

    I’m sure you see my point.

  224. 224.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cervantes: Cervantes,

    In this case it’s a negative loop. The Italian criminal justice system is a prosecutorial investigative (inquisitorial) system. This is the type in a lot of Europe. Unlike our system, which is adversarial, the top level investigators in Italy are prosecutors. And the purpose of the investigation is to determine guilt. Once a case proceeds to court, it’s really not for prosecution, rather it’s for determining just how guilty one is and, therefore, how much punishment and of what type one will receive. In this case the negative loop is that there are a significant number of investigating prosecutors and judges in this region of Italy with a long history of doing poor investigations, bringing the wrong people to court for sentencing, and even sentencing them. That’s why I recommended the article on the Florentine serial killer known as the Monster of Florence. It is the best known and best documented case that demonstrates this pattern: prosecutor does a poor investigation and determines the wrong party is guilty, brings the case to court, gets initial sentence, has it over turned, gets removed from the case, works to undermine the new investigation and be put back in charge, etc, etc, etc. In the Monster of Florence case the same prosecutor that screwed up the Knox case accused the author of the article and book, an American crime novelist who was a toddler when the first murders were committed, of being The Monster. The author got wind of the prosecution, ended his year in Florence to work on a novel early, came back to the US, and has been ignoring the knuckleheads in Florence ever since. As messed up as our system can be/has become, I would never want to be accused of a crime in Italy or any of the other prosecutorial/investigative states in Europe.

    Fun fact: Iraq, where the traditional/tribal rule of law and dispute resolution systems are much closer to ours and the British, has a European style prosecutorial/investigative system. When the Brits were establishing modern Iraq, the one place that the Iraqis rebelled was over the rule of law/criminal justice system. So instead of getting an adversarial, common law type system, they instead put in place a system like the French and Italians. This caused us no end of grief while we were trying to put things back together in Iraq, because we were helping them reestablish the system they had under Saddam Hussein, which isn’t a system that makes sense given how Iraqis do traditional dispute resolution.

  225. 225.

    opiejeanne

    @grandpa john: We were just there in September, visiting my niece and her husband and getting a good look at Italy. She lives in the heel of the boot, in the Puglia region. Italy’s beautiful, the people are nice, most of them, and we had a very good time; we kept in mind that we were guests in their country and that part of the reason we travel is to see how other people do things. We visited Venice, Florence, and Rome before heading to Brindisi. Totally missed Tuscany so I intend to go back at some point. I just turned 65 so I can’t wait too long.

    This case struck home when I first became aware of it because this same niece was heading to Italy for her junior year of college just as it hit the news here. She was about the same age and until the reporting went deeper I didn’t know what to think about Amanda Knox while I worried about my niece. And now we live in Seattle since 2010 so there was a lot of coverage here, and you can imagine the reaction on the news tonight here. After I really got into the case, the more I read the worse it looked to me, but I’m not a lawyer.

    I don’t know about corruption in general in Italy, but I do know that the entire city council of Venice including the mayor had been found guilty of embezzlement just as we got there, and were in prison or under house arrest. The locals all laughed about it. We also witnessed a couple of anti-foreigners rallies that when we asked about them in Venice were told that they wanted Venice to break off from the rest of the country because they didn’t like the outcome of the last election. Sounded awfully familiar. Fascism, I was told, is on the rise a bit and is stronger in the North.

  234. 234.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @WaterGirl: FWIW one should only have group sex with a consenting corpse. I am more than a bit appalled that it took this long for someone to say it.

  236. 236.

    WaterGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, there were 3 of us in my only group-ish experience, I can say with great certainty that I am really glad there were no corpses involved, consenting or otherwise.

    (*the things we do when we’re young…)

  237. 237.

    ShadeTail

    @Tommy:

    Heaven forbid I think she is guilty.

    Actually, yes. Considering that you have absolutely no intelligent or rational reason to think that, I mean. Hell, on the other hand, would probably permit it.

  240. 240.

    eric k

    One thing that makes this different from most cases where someone gets cleared after initially being convicted is they actually know who did it and he’s been in jail for quite a while.

    It is only the incompentence and luird fantasy life of the Italian prosecuter that kept the Knox side of the case going. If he had done simple investigate first police work rather than deciding what had happened and then trying to fit the evidence to his theories then the whole thing would have been over right away and no one would know who Knox is. She’d have been an American student whose roommate was tragically murdered and been in the news briefly in Seattle.

    Then you add the Birish tabloids who care only about generating sales by keeping the story going and anti-vaxxer, birther type conspiracy loons who fall for the bizarre stories. Sadly it seems the victims parents fall into that camp, it is hard to accept that your daughter was simply murdered during a botched robbery, but most of the time the simple random petty crime is what happens. People read too many detective novels.

  241. 241.

    fuckwit

    @trollhattan: Italy kind of is the Texas of Europe. Although that’s a corruption of the usual saying, which is: Sicily is the Texas of Italy.

  242. 242.

    Mike D.

    @Germy Shoemangler:

    Why did Rudy only get 16 years? Why not life in prison? I really don’t know much about this case, only what I’m reading here.

    This goes to Warren Terra’s point about how terrible the prosecutor’s malfeasance here has been for the process of justice and closure.

    Since they prosecuted two other people other than Guede, stressing their moral culpability for the rime, it’s almost certain that they weren’t in a position to argue as unequivocally for the moral culpability of Guede for the crime. So that almost surely his sentence was less than it might have been, still further compromising the justice that the system was able to offer to the Kerchers.

  243. 243.

    Mike D.

    Does anyone know what the record is on the slandering charge (other than that she was convicted and served the time for it)? Meaning, what is it proven she said? What does she concede she said? What is necessary to prove slander in Italy, etc.?

  244. 244.

    HeartlandLiberal

    Italy’s prosecutor in this case could easily find a home in Texas, where railroading defendants, and ignoring or distorting evidence is just part of the game, once you have made up your mind who you want to convict.

    After Italy’s high courts repeatedly said on each round of acquittal that there was no sustainable evidence to support trying or retrying Knox and the male friend, the Italian prosecutors just ignored it and proceeded again. And again.

  245. 245.

    J R in WV

    I read in another thread that Tommy went wild on the Italian Knox Murder case, and that is true. He has a way of making an ambiguous brief remark, and then disbelieving that anyone can misunderstand what he said somehow.

    He can also make a completely true statement in such an odd way that it seems completely otherwordly, and leading with completely true statements to a conclusion that is so strange and unhinged that he finds it amazing that no one can follow him into the weeds where he has wandered.

    And there’s always a group of solid B-J commenters happy to spend time showing each other how wierd Tommy’s latest odd conclusion based upon obviously true but irrelevant facts really is. Often with hiliarous commentary!

    There was a dead body in the house! which is undeniable, there she was, dead, a beautiful English maiden, who, like many college students decided that while she was in a wonderful foreicn country studying, she was also going to party hearty!

    Tommy then asks “Have you ever had a dead body in your house?”, as if all dead bodies don’t have to be somewhere when they are found! Then he must have been totally shocked and apalled when lots of his fellow B-Jers kick back with, “Yeah, several actually!”

    Everyone dies eventually, and mostly those everyones have friends, roommates, relatives, husbands and wives, sons and daughters, who come home and find them, lying there, dead.

    But, really, folks, We all know Tommy, and his ability (need?) to make an obvious jump from obvious truisms to strangeness. He isn’t malicious, or evil, just a little odd. So don’t make such a big deal over his consistent way of wandering from obvious truth into the deepest weeds of strangeness. He will do it again, obviously. Just enjoy the long, strange trip.

    I’m not going to revisit the group sex attributes of his comments, except to note that there didn’t seem to be any factual group sex proven in the Knox case, just some fake group sex that the prosecutor bribed the convicted murder to lie about. Although how certain we should be that the convicted murder was guilty is open, except that there was factual evidence against him….

  246. 246.

    Sherparick

    @celticdragonchick: @Germy Shoemangler: Rudy Guede is a more likely suspect, but the Italian prosecution of this whole case was so F’d up who knows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher#Rudy_Guede They might as well have been Texans. http://www.murderpedia.org/male.D/d/durst-robert.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham and http://www.thenation.com/article/168349/rodney-reed-another-innocent-man-texas-death-row

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