Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I didn’t have alien invasion on my 2023 BINGO card.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Republicans got rid of McCarthy. Democrats chose not to save him.

People are weird.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

The willow is too close to the house.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Battle won, war still ongoing.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”

You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Balloon Juice Bunker Standoff Day 6: Marking Our Beliefs to Market

Balloon Juice Bunker Standoff Day 6: Marking Our Beliefs to Market

by | 126 Comments

This post is in: 

ExtremistKillings2015Table1a*

As Day 6 at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge comes to an end, I wanted to mark some of my beliefs to market on what is, or is not, going on. In previous posts and comments I wrote that a slow, let these guys freeze their dupas off, while the Feds surround the facility and wait them out was a good strategy for dealing with Ammon Bundy and his compatriots. And if that’s what Federal law enforcement seemed to be doing, I’d be okay with it. Unfortunately, as many have brought up in comments, this doesn’t seem to be happening. Despite news reports that the Feds were deploying assets, no assets appear to be deployed.

While concerns of recreating the events at Waco or Ruby Ridge or Whidby Island are all compelling reasons to proceed slowly and methodically, they are not a good reason for appearing to do nothing. Moreover, that those who have broken into and are occupying the Malheur Wildlife Refuge are coming and going without interference is even more troubling. As they dribble out, they should be taken into custody, removed from the area, and charged. Concern for the safety and wellbeing of the local sheriff, as well as BLM personnel and Park Rangers is appropriate. Doing nothing because they are under threat is not. This is not like the case in Texas**, where for fifteen years a far right extremist isolated himself on his own property rather than appear in court to answer charges for assault against a law enforcement officer. In this case the local sheriff was correct: he’d imprisoned himself, so it wasn’t worth risking anyone’s life trying to dig him out.

And here is where I’m perplexed. The reports are that the Feds are doing something. However, no one seems to know what. Certainly Bundy and his fellow travelers don’t seem to have been effected in any way. Stealth and subtlety is often a good thing when dealing with far right extremists in the US, as they are heavily armed and violent – often unpredictably so, doing nothing at all sends all the wrong signals. It sends it to the extremists and their fellow travelers, as well as to people of color and those from other minority groups that have all to often been on the receiving end of what seems to be summary judgement and punishment from law enforcement. It also sends the wrong signal to the rest of Americans – that the rule of law is easily suspended. Not by the government, but by heavily armed white men with extreme beliefs.

At this point all I can write is that I’m perplexed. Federal officers surrounding the Malheur Refuge to keep Bundy and his fellow travelers in while they slowly froze in their own juices makes sense. Federal officers not seeming to do anything while Bundy and his fellow travelers come and go, but maintain an illegal occupation of Federal property at gunpoint does not.

* Pie chart on extremist violence in the US is from the ADL.

** Hat tip to TBogg.

Reader Interactions

126Comments

  1. 1.

    bago

    Dovetails somewhat with the ISIS situation.
    They both want the same thing: For the US Government to take them out and make them martyrs, perpetuating their beliefs regarding the downfall of the Federal Government of the United States.

    Both groups also like waving their guns around.

  3. 3.

    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah...

    I’ve been meaning to look up those numbers…

    So much for the ‘MUSLIMS ARE COMING’ crowd, huh?

    Seems like you’re far more likely to get shot by an angry white man…

  5. 5.

    Gex

    I guess the building is just theirs now. They get to use it as they please. They are seemingly in no jeopardy with law enforcement. And the people who normally work there can’t go. So it’s now theirs, thanks to whomever in law enforcement decided that being cautious was still too risky, so they opted to do nothing at all instead.

  6. 6.

    TaMara (BHF)

    Also, this seems to be affecting the quality of life for the people who reside there – last report I heard, school was closed and some people could not go to work. So armed thugs are holding a town hostage and that’s ok?

  8. 8.

    Adam L Silverman

    @amk: That’s what’s so perplexing. I was told by someone I work with that they were trying to reach a Federal officer and were told that he was deployed to deal with this. That was last Monday. So where these folks are and what they’re doing is a valid question.

  10. 10.

    Mike J

    I had a lot more sympathy for the cop that got shot before I found out he was in Chicago. Had he ever worked at their version of gitmo?

  11. 11.

    Adam L Silverman

    @TaMara (BHF): Correct. And there is also concern, based on who is reportedly heading to the area, that these nutters are going to convene a sovereign grand jury to indict local officials like the sheriff. The folks who do that also like to engage in paper terrorism: filing bogus/spurious liens against their enemies, things like that.

  16. 16.

    Mike J

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Are you talking about the Philadelphia PD officer that was shot yesterday?

    Was it Philly? Oh cool, I can go back to feeling bad for him. Was just out and somebody said it was Chicago.

  17. 17.

    mclaren

    The Feds should spray-paint the Malheur militia guys’ faces black, then unleash the local police on ’em. The police will bring in SWAT teams, lawes rockets, attack helicopters, they’ll even drop bombs on them and use napalm. Problem solved.

  18. 18.

    Anne Laurie

    That’s a literally jaw-dropping chart, Adam. I’m always glad you’re here to share so much valuable information.

    As for Freedumb’s Bolde Defenders, I don’t understand why the feds seem to be sitting on their hands, either. But I still more than half-hope those jagoffs keep getting into slap-fights and competitive tantrum-throwing — which I do wish got more coverage in the lamestream media — until a solid winter storm or notifications from their parole officers ‘encourage’ them to slip off back to their registered addresses.

  19. 19.

    Gvg

    Maybe everyone thinks someone else is taking care of it? Yeah the fact no one is officially spokesperson and in charge is a problem.

  20. 20.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mike J: There was a well publicized attempt to kill a cop, basically ambush him, in Philadelphia yesterday. Even more so because the perpetrator has told the police that he was influenced by Islamic State to take the action because Philadelphia is violating quranic injunctions or something.

  22. 22.

    Ruckus

    I’m one who was for waiting them out from the git go. However….. waiting them out from 3000 miles away seems a bit, lax.
    Do we have a country with a rule of law or not? It seems that black people, especially males have a system and that is be prepared to be shot for breathing. Whites on the other hand seem to have a system that amounts to do whatever the fuck you want, especially if you are armed or rich, who of course can purchase armed people. That’s not a democracy or any kind of rule of law, that’s anarchy.

  23. 23.

    Billb

    Adam, Love your work on this, and I agree with you. Here in Portland our Cops have been hammered by the Feds, and while that is good in a way, the net result is that our cops, as advised by their Union, will do nothing. I called dispatch, and they did not want to bother sending a patrol car. I told them I took a photo of the criminal, they did not want it. This I imagine is what the FBI is doing in our State. They have gotten a bad rep in the past, so why touch it. Until these guys actually shoot someone, they are free to take over Federal Property at will.

  24. 24.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Anne Laurie: And those numbers are somewhat consistent. If I’m recalling correctly we’re averaging about 45 or so of these types of attacks per year over the past decade. I’m not sure most of those include the anti-abortion terrorism.

  26. 26.

    Anne Laurie

    @Mike J: What surprised me, on the evening news, was that the Philly media was actually asking the police chief “Is this actually ISIS terrorism, or just a guy with mental issues looking for an excuse to shoot somebody?” And the shooter isn’t even a white guy!

  27. 27.

    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah...

    @Anne Laurie: My fear is that they’ll finally get tired of being laughed at and do something really seriously nasty/stupid…

    But oh Lord, do they ever deserve to be mocked endlessly…

  31. 31.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Anne Laurie: I lived in the Philadelphia suburbs in 2004-2005 when I was a visiting professor of criminology at Temple University. There are two sizable African American Muslim communities in Philadelphia. One is Nation of Islam, the other is part of the group that split off under Imam Dean Muhammed – one of the sons of the NOI’s founder. My guess is he’s likely got issues, but the “I’m doing this for Islam” is going to carry the day.

  32. 32.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    I was all for letting the camp out continue until they got cold and/or ran out of snacks and left. I also understand that the local LEOs need to protect town locals. But wandering in and out of a siege seems a bit much. And with sovereign citizens on the way to assist heavily armed angry white men, this has the potential to go sideways in a hurry.

  33. 33.

    cokane

    That chart is intended to be eye-popping but it’s really deceptive. Let me first say that I definitely think some news outlets make way to much of Islamic terrorism (CNN is especially guilty). However, based on demographics you would expect the US to have overwhelmingly white, non-Islamic terrorists. Islamic terrorism deaths were 37% of all deaths despite Muslims making up about 0.9% of the US population, according to PEW… that is not an exonerating set of facts.

  34. 34.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    I had a feeling that Y’All Qaeda was looking to martyr themselves at Ruby Ridge II: Oregon Boogaloo. The Feds look to be having the same feeling and thus are keeping themselves at an undisclosed location to wait these yahoos out.

    No Drama Obama does not want the Second Civil War to start on his watch.

  36. 36.

    RobertDSC-Quad Intel Mac

    I still believe, now more than ever, that these domestic terrorists need to be removed from this earth by the most explosive means possible. Completely vaporized so *nothing* is left.

    They don’t care about the rule of law or due process or democracy. Why should we give them any quarter?

  38. 38.

    Soylent Green

    Reinforcements have arrived at Camp Bundy. A contingent of soldiers from an Idaho-based militia called the “3% of Idaho” are now at the site to help guard the perimeter.

    I may be an Obamabot, but I am royally pissed at the president’s refusal to display any authority. It would be a simple matter to block the roads accessing the refuge to prevent these militia clowns from coming and going.

    Almost as bad is the failure of our public affairs people (BLM and my agency the Forest Service) to give the media any facts to counter the Bundys’ bullshit. Their silence has allowed these fuckers to frame the issue as one of government overreach. Now a number of Republican pols are piling on.

  43. 43.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Soylent Green: Even worse is there’s a subgroup called the 1%ers that are also en route.

    I understand not coming out and making some big announcement or statement, but its the seeming no response at all that is mystifying.

  44. 44.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    It looks like things are going on behind the scenes. OPB today:

    The Federal Bureau of Investigation is looking into whether militants at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge have accessed government computers during their occupation.

    OPB observed militants interacting with computers in the compound that can only be accessed with employee ID badges. The armed men also appear to have riffled through materials in an office building used by federal employees.

    […]

    Along with accessing computers, militants at the compound are using government vehicles and equipment to operate and fortify defenses.

    When reached Friday, FBI spokeswoman Beth Anne Steele declined to officially comment on any activity ongoing at the refuge.

    However, law enforcement officials are concerned refuge employees could potentially be harmed by members of the group. Prior to the occupation, federal employees and family members of local law enforcement had received anonymous threats.

    Harney County Sheriff David Ward said at a community meeting Wednesday that his deputies and own family members had been followed home, photographed, and had personal property damaged in recent months.

    In an interview Friday, Ward said he was concerned about the welfare of the employees who work at the refuge. However, he said he hasn’t confirmed militants have indeed accessed any personnel data.

    “With what information we do have, we’re doing everything we can to make sure we keep our citizens and those employees safe,” Ward said.

    U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service spokesman Jason Holm also declined to confirm whether the computers had been used. But he did say the agency has taken a full inventory of what was left inside the refuge before the militants seized it.

    “We are cognizant that the individuals in the refuge would have access to files, and things like refuge equipment,” Holm said. “We’re working with the FBI to mitigate any risk (to employees).”

    There are 16 full-time and one part-time employee who work at the refuge, according to Holm.

    “We are taking all appropriate security precautions,” Holm said when asked about employee safety.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  45. 45.

    Adam L Silverman

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Accessing even unclassified Federal/governmental computer systems is a felony. Without an access card with token for the reader, they wouldn’t be able to get in. But just trying is a crime.

  46. 46.

    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah...

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Even worse is there’s a subgroup called the 1%ers that are also en route.

    This… right here… this is what I’ve been afraid of…

    And not just in Oregon… but all over the country, like mushrooms sprouting up in a cow pasture after a rainstorm…

  47. 47.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Adam L Silverman: More from the OPB story:

    Finnicum says the group plans to turn the office into a media center that would eventually house reporters.

    There are four desks in the office, two on each side. Three of the computers were turned on, and in screen saver mode. Papers in the room were strewn about in a disorderly manner.

    After Finnicum realized he shouldn’t have allowed OPB to access the room, he quickly picked up lists of names and Social Security numbers by the computers, and hid government employee ID cards that were previously in plain sight.

    Shortly after, one of the militant leaders, Ryan Bundy, walked into the room.

    When asked about the computers, Bundy emphatically denied any of the work spaces had been touched since the occupation.

    The brainiac “patriots” there seem to think that they’ve won and can do whatever they want.

    It’s good to see that people seem to be keeping track of all the laws they’re breaking. With luck, they’ll be going to the Big House for a very long time when this is done.

    Perhaps the FBI is turning the place into a honeypot or something…

    It’s still very early. Let’s hope this ends fairly soon, but with the gunmen thoroughly discredited in the process.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  49. 49.

    Soylent Green

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I can’t speak for a rural Fish & Wildlife Service office, but my computer access requires my chipped ID card, which is never left at work. They appear to have internet access there, which is weird, because the agency could turn that off remotely.

  51. 51.

    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah...

    @Ruckus: Fair enough…

    Mushrooms tend to grow in patties as it is… which is what I was getting at…

  52. 52.

    amk

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: So the fez are going to do what, charge them with breaking and entering computers? a la al capone tax dodge? This has gone beyond farce especially given the way how the same feds react against unarmed protesters.

  53. 53.

    Peale

    @Adam L Silverman: I guess the simplest explanation is that the militia are useful to the government the same way the Taliban are to the Pakistani government. BLM workers aren’t useful, therefore they lose their jobs.

  55. 55.

    Adam L Silverman

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: How they were able to get government IDs I have no idea. I can’t speak for BLM personnel, but you don’t leave your ID lying around. It has to be accounted for at all time.

    As to paperwork with social security #s on it – it sounds like they’re into the personnel files. The problem is that members of these groups sometimes dabble in identity theft and other forms of what we used to call paper terrorism. If they’ve got people’s social security #s, this is a whole new ball game.

  56. 56.

    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah...

    @Ruckus: It’s not a problem…

    Fungus… bovine excrement… it’s hard to go wrong down either of those roads w/ that bunch…

  58. 58.

    Felonius Monk

    @Baud:

    I for one welcome our new redneck overlords.

    So you just got a big campaign contribution from the Rednecks4Baud pac?

  59. 59.

    Adam L Silverman

    @The Republic, Blah Blah Blah…: Doubtful. You keep it either on a lanyard or in your wallet. Usually you have at least two IDs. One gets you into the facility and has to be displayed at all times – like on a lanyard. The other is a common access card with a biometric chip that allows you to log into your workstation. Access with these can be disabled by having the tech guys remove access for the card and its holder.

  60. 60.

    Mnemosyne

    @cokane:

    If that chart is only 2015, it’s counting San Bernardino as Islamic terrorism, which is going to skew the numbers more than a bit.

  61. 61.

    Peale

    “Not only do the Bundys continue with their grazing trespass unabated, but they have taken effective control of about a million acres nominally managed by the BLM and the National Park Service (Lake Mead National Recreation Area),” said Edward Patrovsky, a retired Bureau of Land Management ranger who has worked in Oregon and Nevada.

  64. 64.

    Bobby Thomson

    Well, Adam, there are all these geniuses who think if we just ignore the dipshits, they’ll go away. Doubtless they said the same thing about Trump, too. Or Clive Bundy.

    There’s no accounting for stupid.

  65. 65.

    Mary G

    The government had better be paying their employees that can’t go to work there and protecting them from these yahoos.

  71. 71.

    Felonius Monk

    Occupier Duane Ehmer of Oregon wrote on his Facebook page that he left the refuge to put in some hours.

    “I just got back home from the bundy/ Hammond stand off I have to work a few days before I go back,” Duane Ehmer wrote on his Facebook page, adding later, “bringing more guns.”

    (Source)

  72. 72.

    Soylent Green

    Speaking of Cliven Bundy, here’s what he demanded two years ago:

    (1) that the county sheriff (these guys recognize no higher civil authority) forcibly disarm all the FBI and BLM law enforcement personnel in the area. Failure to do so would represent dereliction of duty.

    (2) that the BLM and National Park Service relinquish control of their holdings in the area, and that the county roads department bulldoze the visitor entry stations at Lake Mead National Recreation Area and Red Rocks National Conservation Area. These areas would then become the property of local ranchers.

    Ammon Bundy’s stated demand is that ownership of the Malheur refuge (all 300 square miles of it) be transferred to the Hammonds and a few other local families. He has vowed to stay until this objective is achieved.

  75. 75.

    LosGatosCA

    It also sends the wrong signal to the rest of Americans – that the rule of law is easily suspended. Not by the government, but by heavily armed white men with extreme beliefs.

    That’s not a signal, that’s a statement of fact.

    Heavily armed white men with extreme, preferably racist, beliefs do indeed get the law suspended – it’s a white man’s world just ask Chauncey Gardner George W Bush.

  76. 76.

    seaboogie

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:

    No Drama Obama does not want the Second Civil War to start on his watch.

    It feels to me that this is what is happening. There is a difference between doing what is legally correct and justified, and doing what is smart and strategic, especially with Trump out there stoking the rage-gasmic id of the frustrated, ignorant mobs – giving them a forum to vent and egging them on. And then, of course, there is Fox News and RWNJ blogs. I’d say there is 27% of this country that is near to frothing at the mouth crazy, many of them heavily armed, and immune to logic and laws.

  77. 77.

    Soylent Green

    At first I thought the hands-off stance made sense, but with other extremists free to lock and load, this now has the potential to get very ugly.

    What is the FBI thinking? That they shouldn’t get involved until control of the situation is beyond their control?

  78. 78.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Soylent Green: Given your military, law enforcement, and security expertise, what would you suggest is the best way to handle it? And if you really know should you talk about it in public?

  79. 79.

    seaboogie

    @seaboogie: I’d also add that I think instead of letting the Bundy gang come and go, they should secure the perimeter and let them leave, and let nobody back in, especially not anybody new.

    And, upon further thought, make sure that the motels in the area put up “No Vacancy” signs, and compensate the owners of the motels, just to get the militants well out of the area. As it is, they’ll like be full up with reporters anyway.

  80. 80.

    jl

    @cokane: Seems to me your argument assumes that the US is overwhelmingly white anti-government wingnut. I am a white guy liberal, pro BLM (both of ’em). Are you saying that I should be in the denominator for the rate of whites who do or plan to shoot and blow things up?

  81. 81.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @seaboogie: If I were doing it, I would secure the perimeter and then allow anyone in. I would allow no one out. But then I approach this purely as a trained soldier. The more people inside the siege area, the sooner the supplies run out. I would think that the people running this op. have other considerations to keep in mind.

  83. 83.

    jl

    @Anne Laurie: Re guy who shot the cop in Philly, I heard on the news that his family was trying to persuade him to get mental counseling, they say he had started acting strangely before the shooting. They thought he was developing serious mental or emotional problems. So, the Philly shooting may be more an unbalanced person acting out violently, than an act motivated by political/religious extremism.

  84. 84.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman: It seems the are slow rolling it for some reason. Let them have time to leave peacefully if they want. It also seems from info in this thread that they are monitoring what is going on. I expect a raft of charges for those who stay and those who go. I appear to be in the minority in this thread.

  85. 85.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: Here’s a question for you: why exactly is this Pelletier woman, who keeps identifying herself as both their spokeswoman, but as Oregon National Guard, not up on charges? If she’s Active Guard/Reserve, then she’s way off the reservation. If, as its being reported, she’s in the process of separation for disability, then there’s still an issue.

  86. 86.

    Soylent Green

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t have any such expertise. But this doesn’t seem that hard. Well out of range, you block both ends of Sodhouse Lane, which accesses the refuge facilities. Don’t let people in or out.

    I drive the highway through the refuge every year or two. There’s nothing there but flat high treeless desert. No place to hide.

  88. 88.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: That was my guess. Every time I see one of these knuckleheads doing something like this, I have a brief moment of spiteful thoughts that they’d be recalled to active service and court-martialed.

  89. 89.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Soylent Green: What you are saying is that you are familiar with the location, but not the strategies and tactics. Other professionals may have the opposite knowledge. The Feds may be sorting out the terrain and setting up carefully. Or they may be saying fuck it. As a federal employee, what do you think?

  91. 91.

    seaboogie

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    If I were doing it, I would secure the perimeter and then allow anyone in. I would allow no one out. But then I approach this purely as a trained soldier.

    Yeah, I was thinking that at first – but upon further consideration it feels to me like letting more folks and arms in would be concentrating the solution and facilitating supersaturation, at which point the solution becomes unstable and starts to crystalize.

    I think you want to keep your crazies in one place where you can see them, but concentrating the crazy with more crazy and moar guns seems a lot more volatile.

  93. 93.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @seaboogie: The amount of guns or ammo isn’t all that important. The amount of water, food, toilet paper, and things like that eventually comes into it. Logistics are ever so important.

  94. 94.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The various reports are so conflicting that I, for one, have no fucking idea what’s going on up there. I hope somebody on the federal side does.

  95. 95.

    Soylent Green

    @Omnes Omnibus: Dude, I don’t know what they’re doing. Reports are that there have been no aboveground sightings of federal law enforcement in Burns or elsewhere. If they are setting up, they are being amazingly discreet about it. It’s a small town, and word gets around.

  96. 96.

    Soylent Green

    @jl: They cut the power to a small structure quite a few miles to the south that’s used only in the summer. I don’t think it accomplishes anything.

  97. 97.

    seaboogie

    @Omnes Omnibus: Agreed. I think the feds are doing some PsyOps here, and with a bunch of yahoos freezing without much in the way of rations, it’s got to make it pretty ideal conditions for that. Running out of all sorts of shit, with the exception of their actual shit would be pretty humbling for these brave patriots – considering that this was their brilliant idea in the first place.

    I guess the feds don’t cut off Wi-Fi, because reporters.

  98. 98.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Soylent Green: The point I was trying to make is that people who have military/law enforcement knowledge, but don’t know the local terrain may want to study the terrain in order to know how to set up.

  99. 99.

    Bobby D

    @Adam L Silverman: Partially true. I’m GS on a military installation, have CAC to access computer, use same CAC for base access/ID, but don’t display anything during the workday. CAC is either in my computer keyboard reader, or in my pocket, NEVER displayed as a “badge”.

  100. 100.

    Fred Fnord

    @Adam L Silverman: My favorite part of the response is this:

    “Today we asked them whether they would cooperate with us, and allow themselves to be escorted out of the area, after being assured that they would not be charged with anything.”

    “Did they respond?”

    “Yes, they said ‘no’.”

    “And what will the consequences be of that decision?”

    “Well, we will ask them again tomorrow, somewhat more loudly.”

  101. 101.

    Soylent Green

    @Omnes Omnibus:I don’t really expect violence to erupt. I think most of these yahoos are little boys in the backyard playing soldier, albeit heavily armed little boys. Like most gun freaks, they are cowards who don’t want to die, despite their vainglorious talk. Wait them out until the game stops being fun. In the meantime can’t we stop them from going into town for resupply and R&R?

  102. 102.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Bobby D: I’m part of that club – or I am when I’m on an OF-69. At my last assignment I had two different IDs, which were building badges to be displayed for access and onsite at all times – one for the HQ building and one for our facility as we were just off post (a new building is being built). At Carlisle Barracks I had one building badge – good for all buildings. These building badges/facility IDs also have a biometric chip in them like the CAC. These were in addition to my CAC card. And as I indicated the CAC is not used as a badge.

  103. 103.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Soylent Green: If they don’t have the people in place yet, no, they can’t.

    The types of folk who can do what is necessary who aren’t current military are not right there.

  104. 104.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Soylent Green: How many deaths are you willing to risk to resolve it now? How much damage to the location? I was an artillery officer; if given the word, someone like I once was could wipe out these guys and all the buildings in about 90 seconds. Is that what you want?

  106. 106.

    Howard Beale IV

    96 Hours prior:
    Evict all non-belligerents within a 10-mile radius.

    48 hours prior:
    Cut off power to all structures. 1 Mile no-go perimeter zone. Nothing in or out. Notify belligerents that immediate family arrested and assets will be seized under PATRIOT Act legislation unless they surrender within the next 24 hours.

    Minus 24-hours:
    Total communications blackout established.

    Zero hours:
    (1) Watchtower neutralized

    (2) After watchtower neutralized, Teargas and flashbangs launched into occupied buildings with simultaneous robotic door breakdowns.

    Let them kill themselves.

  107. 107.

    a different chris

    @Omnes Omnibus: No, at least I don’t. If the current strategy is ‘a soft approach, gather necessary information, then arrest the fuck out of them in calmer circumstances whenever the opportunity presents itself’, which, without inside info as to what’s being done quietly behind the scenes just looks like they’re doing nothing, then that’s great. That is a smart, rational approach (and one that shouldn’t be reserved only for angry white guys with guns).

    However, if the Fed strategy is actually doing nothing, which is the playbook they used every other time these exact same idiots pulled this same sort of shit, then that’s not OK.

  108. 108.

    Adam L Silverman

    @sukabi: I mentioned it in an earlier comment. Apparently some of the citizen’s grand jury nutters are reportedly headed to Burns. What these folks do is convene, for lack of a better term, their own grand juries that have no actual legal authority. In this case it appears that several of the Burns citizenry, a former fire chief and the head of the local/county GOP, have formed a citizen’s vigilance committee or somesuch and these grand jury nuts are supposed to be linking up with them. They generally do two things. 1) Engage in paper terrorism: place bogus liens on property, break into unattended property, change the locks, and attempt to register the property in their names, ID theft, things like that. And 2) produce bogus indictments of public officials and others that don’t support them or they’ve deemed as enemies and then try to arrest, try, and sentence them. Usually the sentence is for treason and the punishment would be death. It normally isn’t allowed to get that far, but if I’m recalling correctly they did beat the daylights out of an official in Orlando a few years back.

    Right now no one actually knows if they’ll show up and, if they do, if they’re going to do the usual show they pull everywhere else. I would wager that if they do show up, they’ll follow their usual routine.

  109. 109.

    Elizabelle

    Haven’t read thread, maybe someone already cited this big story from NYTImes front page (Saturday morning, anyway; not sure if it was up Friday night too):

    Ex-Analyst Says He Warned of Growing Militia Movement

    front page blurb: Daryl Johnson, a former Department of Homeland Security official, said his warning in 2009 of a growing antigovernment movement drew fierce criticism from Republican lawmakers and his office was quietly dismantled.

    from the story:

    Daryl Johnson once worked in the branch of the [DHS] that studied the threats posed by antigovernment militia groups. His former office [the Extremism and Radicalization Branch] was shut down more than five years ago.

    But when members of an armed militia took over a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon last week, Mr. Johnson was not surprised.

    In 2009, the former analyst wrote a report that warned of a growing antigovernment movement and the possible recruitment of returning military veterans that could “lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone-wolf extremists.”

    His words drew fierce criticism from Republican lawmakers and conservative news media, labeling the report an unfair assessment of legitimate criticisms of the government. The document was retracted after [then DHS Secretary] Janet Napolitano apologized to veterans, and the Extremism and Radicalization Branch was quietly dismantled.

    …. The Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based organization that tracks extremist organizations, [says the antigovernment militia movement grew to 276 groups in 2015 … up from 202 in 2014, a 37 percent increase [in one year!!]

    The center said the militia movement grew explosively after Mr. Obama was elected in 2008, from 42 groups to 334 in 2011, before declining in recent years. The number of militia groups peaked at 370 in 1996 with President Bill Clinton in office.

    The radicalization office was meant to monitor domestic threats, with a major focus on militia groups, particularly because Homeland Security analysts worried that these groups might be able to recruit returning military veterans. The reference to veterans, in addition to claims that the report was targeting Tea Party activists, promoted the backlash that led to the closing of the office.

    … John A. Boehner, … then House minority leader, criticized Ms. Napolitano for the department’s failure to use the term “terrorist” to describe groups such as Al Qaeda, while “using the same term to describe American citizens who disagree with the direction Washington Democrats are taking our nation.”

    Chickens, meet roost.

    So: militia activity surges when a Democrat is president, because these tinpot “patriots” find Democratic leaders illegitimate, despite carrying copies of the Constitution in their pockets.

    Republican politicians only want to focus on external threats. The rightwing domestic radicals in our midst? Not so much.

    Also funny that the bird sanctuary militia drew not only military veterans, but ersatz ones too — a few cases of pretend soldiers. Disordered thinkers, all of them.

  110. 110.

    Soylent Green

    @Omnes Omnibus: I said the feds should control access to the property from a safe distance, not attack it with fucking artillery. Where did you get that from? Block the road and turn away any newcomers. I’m confident that visitors are not going to shoot their way in.

  111. 111.

    xenos

    I wonder if a good 10-20% of the guys in the building are undercover agents that have spent 10 years getting into the center of the movement. If so, he feds may need to let the militia members shuffle in and out a bit more so they can get their assets out without compromising them.

  113. 113.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Soylent Green: For some reason a lot of people are conflating blowing these guys up with maybe not just letting them fix all the mistakes they made when they showed up with a weekend’s worth of food.

    James Buchanan didn’t want the Civil War to start on his watch, either. And he succeeded!

  114. 114.

    Elizabelle

    @xenos: Funny. That would be awesome. The militia wannabes set to wondering which of them is a govimint informer.

    I don’t think the feds are ignoring this situation cuz the militants are white folk. They’re waiting them out, for reasons the impatient may not glean.

  115. 115.

    VanyaJosefstadt

    @The Republic, Blah Blah Blah…: Considering how few Muslims live in the United States that is actually a surprisingly high number of Islam inspired acts. This sort of chart by itself actually provides ammunition to the “Muslims are dangerous crowd” and probably needs a little more context, such as the fact that terrorist attacks of any kind are a very minor issue in the United States right now. We are talking about a very small sample size.

  116. 116.

    Kay

    Finnicum says the group plans to turn the office into a media center that would eventually house reporters.
    There are four desks in the office, two on each side. Three of the computers were turned on, and in screen saver mode. Papers in the room were strewn about in a disorderly manner.
    After Finnicum realized he shouldn’t have allowed OPB to access the room, he quickly picked up lists of names and Social Security numbers by the computers, and hid government employee ID cards that were previously in plain sight.

    Along with possibly accessing the computers, militants at the compound are using government vehicles and equipment to operate and fortify defenses.
    When reached Friday, FBI spokeswoman Beth Anne Steele declined to officially comment on any activity ongoing at the refuge.
    However, law enforcement officials are concerned refuge employees could potentially be harmed by members of the group. Prior to the occupation, federal employees and family members of local law enforcement had received anonymous threats.
    Harney County Sheriff David Ward said at a community meeting Wednesday that his deputies and own family members had been followed home, photographed, and had personal property damaged in recent months.

    I wonder how many thousands of people were picked up and charged yesterday for trespassing, petty theft, threatening someone, or using someone else’s property without permission. If they were picked up and charged on a Friday a lot of them will be spending the weekend in jail.

    For some mysterious reason, all of those people have to follow the law but not this select group of conservative activists. They’re special.

  118. 118.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yup. Escalate the situation, someone loses control on their itchy trigger finger, and we’re off to the races. Also known as ‘What The Feds Learned From Ruby Ridge’.

    But I also get the impression that there are those here that want their own Second Civil War as well.

  119. 119.

    Kay

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    I don’t think the Koresh case is at all comparable. The facts are completely different.

    I think the thousands of people who are arrested and held for various misdemeanors and property crimes every day have a right to ask why the rules are applied differently when conservative activists commit the same crimes in pursuit of their political goal- privatizing publicly-owned land.

    The FBI and Cleveland police are right now, today, looking for a “suspect” who threatened the county prosecutor in the Rice murder case- this is after street protests demanding someone be held accountable for a 12 year old’s murder.

    I would like someone in charge at the federal level to tell me why these two groups of political activists are being treated differently. Is it guns? So if the BLM activists arm themselves laws won’t be enforced?

  120. 120.

    Soylent Green

    @Kay: These guys don’t regard the federal workers who staff that office as fellow U.S. citizens, but as foreign invaders. In their minds, they have just breached bin Laden’s compound in Abbottabad.

  121. 121.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Soylent Green: That doesn’t answer the important question Kay and I would like someone in charge at the federal level to address:

    Why are these two groups of political activists are being treated differently. Is it guns? So if the BLM activists arm themselves laws won’t be enforced?

    Because her point is important:

    I think the thousands of people who are arrested and held for various misdemeanors and property crimes every day have a right to ask why the rules are applied differently when conservative activists commit the same crimes in pursuit of their political goal- privatizing publicly-owned land.

    The FBI and Cleveland police are right now, today, looking for a “suspect” who threatened the county prosecutor in the Rice murder case- this is after street protests demanding someone be held accountable for a 12 year old’s murder.

    And we all know that armed black, brown, Native American or any non-white armed protesters would be in hospitals or morgues at this point. What these heavily armed camp out fools think about the feds is immaterial.

    I understand that some of this falls under the heading of “Lessons Learned from Ruby Ridge” and that it’s important not to trigger domestic open warfare. However, it looks like privileged treatment to anyone who’s not considering the wider strategic context. And, frankly, to some who are.

  122. 122.

    Heliopause

    The fundamental difference between those other cases and the current one being, wanted criminals hunkered down on a piece of private property vs. an armed gang seizing a federal facility. It’s one thing to wait out some nutjobs in their fortresses, it’s another to allow armed gangs to wander around the countryside doing whatever they please.

  123. 123.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I have no inside knowledge, and I’m no expert on this stuff – the following is just my speculation.

    1) AFAIK, most of the outrages we have heard about recently where citizens are being gunned down or treated as animals, those events were done by local or state law enforcement officials. The events in Oregon are under federal jurisdiction (with some assistance by the local sheriffs).

    2) If one trusts the Wikipedia summary, the ATF and other federal officials were keeping Koresh under surveillance for a long time and trying to figure out the best way to enforce the law peacefully. The local paper was going to publish a big expose’ accusing the Koresh people of child abuse and more. The feds tried to get them not to publish the story, the paper did anyway, so the feds had to suddenly move up their timeline.

    3) The Refuge is out in the middle of nowhere. There is no doubt that hardships are being imposed on the local people, local law enforcement, employees and researchers who work there, and others. The optics are bad, especially considering #1, but there is no public safety threat – yet.

    4) There have been indications (like the OPB stories) that the FBI and others are keeping an eye on things and apparently taking some actions (cutting power to other buildings in the Refuge). They haven’t washed their hands of it – we don’t know what they’re doing, but they’re doing something.

    It would be much more satisfying if one could clearly see that these yahoos weren’t being treated with kid gloves. But the lesson isn’t that the FBI should treat these gunmen the way that John Crawford III or Tamir Rice were treated. The lesson is that local police shouldn’t figure that emptying a clip into someone is the way to “serve and protect”.

    Now if the Bundy clan and the rest of them face no charges as a result of this, well, that’s a whole nother kettle of fish.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  124. 124.

    Kay

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    It would be much more satisfying if one could clearly see that these yahoos weren’t being treated with kid gloves. But the lesson isn’t that the FBI should treat these gunmen the way that John Crawford III or Tamir Rice were treated. The lesson is that local police shouldn’t figure that emptying a clip into someone is the way to “serve and protect”.

    Well, except no one is saying that. I’m simply asking that the ordinary, low level code provisions be applied or someone tell me why these people are special.

    Incidentally, the FBI investigation into the threat to the prosecutor in Cleveland? On the front page of the paper. For some reason they didn’t secretly investigate and not report anything to the public so as not to set anyone off or whatever. Bidness as usual, all the way.

    Special treatment demands explanation.

  125. 125.

    Kay

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    If the truth is we have to handle these people with kid gloves or no one has any idea WTF they’ll do then someone in government should say that because if they don’t they’re not telling the truth and doing that has consequences.

  126. 126.

    Soylent Green

    The federal authorities are rightfully concerned about creating new Tim McVeighs, and quite unsure as to what not to do. It’s unreasonable to compare this to urban law enforcement going after individuals, because said individuals are not members of a broader, highly delusional militia movement that uses the internet to spread their fantasies to many more gullible and potentially dangerous rubes.

    As it turns out, the feds are massing some vehicles and personnel at a private airstrip outside of Burns, while keeping a very low profile in town. They can afford to wait because there is no imminent danger. It should be obvious to us all that the militants are not going to be allowed to occupy the site indefinitely, and one day (I think in a week or so) things will come to a head.

    Burns is a small town but gets a lot of visitors, the local attractions being the wildlife refuge and the scenic Steens Mountain area further south. In the middle of winter, visitation levels are their lowest. Without these two federal properties nearby, the economy of Burns would be even worse.

    Ranching and agriculture in Harney County have never been anything but marginally profitable. Both would likely fail if not for government-funded water diversions and other improvements, which continue to be subsidized by the nation’s taxpayers.

    The refuge that Bundy wants to reclaim (free of of any environmental laws) is critically important to migrating birds along the Pacific Flyway. It was first established in 1908 to prevent the decimation of these birds by market hunters.

Comments are closed.