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You are here: Home / Who wants to break the news about uncle Joe

Who wants to break the news about uncle Joe

by DougJ|  March 3, 20163:57 pm| 56 Comments

This post is in: Assholes

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This seems a little extreme:

“I would sooner vote for Josef Stalin than I would vote for Donald Trump,” said Mr. Boot, who expressed optimism that Mr. Trump could still be defeated.

I’d like to think that if either party nominated Stalin, I’d make the principled decision to support the other party’s candidate. Maybe I’m giving myself too much credit here.

But I don’t really understand why people talk about Stalin in the context of elections in democratic countries. Stalin was never democratically elected. He didn’t have to appeal to soccer moms or NASCAR dads.

You know who did rise to power in a democracy though? I defy you to read this and not think it sounds a lot like “Bush doesn’t really hate the gays” (when Rove did all the anti-marriage equality stuff in 2004) or “Trump won’t really deport 11 million people” (now) or “the GOP candidate won’t really add trillions to our deficit with that crazy tax plan” (every election of my lifetime).

Out of curiosity, I found the first NYT reference to Adolf Hitler. Nov. 21, 1922. Amazing last three paragraphs. pic.twitter.com/VhBnlSsfNm

— Jon Ostrower (@jonostrower) March 2, 2016

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Reader Interactions

56Comments

  1. 1.

    Bob Smith

    March 3, 2016 at 4:01 pm

    Uh, this is obviously bullshit.

  2. 2.

    p.a.

    March 3, 2016 at 4:06 pm

    I don’t believe the trains ran on time under Stalin. The ‘corrections’ industry was a ‘buy’.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    March 3, 2016 at 4:07 pm

    I now realize my problem was being too honest with the people.

  4. 4.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    March 3, 2016 at 4:07 pm

    Saw that early this morning. Creepy.

  5. 5.

    Wrb

    March 3, 2016 at 4:08 pm

    Great find

  6. 6.

    The Republic, Blah Blah Blah...

    March 3, 2016 at 4:08 pm

    Stalin was never democratically elected. He didn’t have to appeal to soccer moms or NASCAR dads.

    Yeah, but if Stalin had to go that route, he would have appealed to both soccer dads AND NASCAR moms…

  7. 7.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 3, 2016 at 4:09 pm

    Indira Gandhi declared a state of emergency in 1975. She was an elected leader too. Modi and his government is pushing the envelope right now in India, intimidating those dare to question the ruling party’s tactics and their version of India’s history and Hinduism.

  8. 8.

    Baud

    March 3, 2016 at 4:09 pm

    “several reliable, well-informed sources” have been screwing us over for a long time.

  9. 9.

    Mnemosyne

    March 3, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    I have a pretty entertaining book about Nikita Khrushchev’s visit to the US in the late 1950s called K Blows Top!. When they took a whistle-stop train tour up the West Coast, his American handler was shocked to see K acting like an old-fashioned politician — wading into the crowd, shaking hands, kissing babies, the whole nine yards. But Khrushchev wasn’t nearly as bad a guy as Stalin was (though he murdered his share of innocent people).

    And it is in fact true that Khrushchev did want his wife and daughter to visit Disneyland, but the Secret Service didn’t have enough notice and felt they wouldn’t have been able to guard him properly. That would have been one hell of a photo op, though.

  10. 10.

    gogol's wife

    March 3, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    @Baud:

    My thoughts exactly.

  11. 11.

    gene108

    March 3, 2016 at 4:13 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Indira Gandhi declared a state of emergency in 1975.

    It did not last more than a couple of years.

    I don’t see India going back down that path.

    Too much diversity in India to be handled by a dictatorship, because enough people would be frozen out of power at some level that there’d be revolts that’d make the current mess in the Middle East look tame.

  12. 12.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 3, 2016 at 4:14 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I remember that visit. Even though he didn’t get to visit Disneyland, he did spend a good chunk of one day on the set of Can-Can IIRC.

  13. 13.

    Emerald

    March 3, 2016 at 4:17 pm

    That article was published on my Dad’s fifth birthday. He was just the right age for WW2.

    So it took Hitler longer, but then, he didn’t have the enthusiastic aid and assistance of today’s media.

  14. 14.

    theBuhjaysus

    March 3, 2016 at 4:17 pm

    Im not just drinking sweet wingnut tears these days; I’m bathing, showering and washing the dog in them.

  15. 15.

    gene108

    March 3, 2016 at 4:18 pm

    @The Republic, Blah Blah Blah…:

    Yeah, but if Stalin had to go that route, he would have appealed to both soccer dads AND NASCAR moms…

    Well Stalin understood, as John Ellis Bush and Katherine Harris later demonstrated in the 2000 Presidential election, that he who cast the votes doesn’t decide an election, the people who count the votes do.

  16. 16.

    Napoleon

    March 3, 2016 at 4:18 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I always had the impression that as far as a person who climbed the latter in a system like the USSR had he was a good as it got.

  17. 17.

    sigaba

    March 3, 2016 at 4:20 pm

    Hitler never won a free and fair election in Germany. His party never held a majority of Reichstag seats and he never won either the chancellorship or the presidency. His party actually LOST seats in the last election before he seized power.

    What happened was the conservative government under Hindenburg was going to collapse, and the KPD (the Communists) were probably going to form the new government, so in order to co-opt the Nazi’s, Hindenburg used emergency powers to APPOINT Hitler chancellor. Then the Reichstag mysteriously caught fire and the Nazis beat up any socialist deputy who tried to attend Reichstag meetings.

    This “Hitler won an election” meme is a zombie lie and a huge pet peeve of mine. He came to power “legally,” that’s the most that can be said.

  18. 18.

    John Revolta

    March 3, 2016 at 4:20 pm

    @p.a.: Mussolini made the trains run on time. Stalin just had them all shot.

  19. 19.

    rikyrah

    March 3, 2016 at 4:20 pm

    Obamas to remain in D.C. after presidency so daughter can finish high school

    President Obama cast some light on his post presidency plans Thursday, telling lunch companions in Milwaukee that he plans to remain in Washington so that his youngest daughter can finish high school.

    “We’re going to have to stay a couple of years so Sasha can finish. Transferring someone in the middle of high school — tough,” he said while eating lunch at a Milwaukee restaurant.

    Beyond that? “We haven’t figured that out yet,” he said.

    —

    Sasha, 15, attends Sidwell Friends School in Washington. His elder daughter, Malia, is going off to college this year.

    Obama’s remark was more definitive than his earlier statements on the matter. In 2013, Obama told ABC’s Barbara Walters that he might stay in Washington until Sasha goes off to college. “We gotta make sure that she’s doing well,” Obama told Walters. “Sasha will have a big say in where we are.”

    Obama would be the first president not to leave Washington since Woodrow Wilson.

  20. 20.

    Baud

    March 3, 2016 at 4:21 pm

    @sigaba:

    Hindenburg used emergency powers to APPOINT Hitler chancellor.

    Have emergency managers ever worked?

  21. 21.

    trollhattan

    March 3, 2016 at 4:23 pm

    Buried in the previous thread, sigaba found this article about NH “Veterans for Trump” co-chair who’s been arrested for his actions as a 2014 Bundybot.

    FBI agents arrested Jerry DeLemus, co-chair of Veterans for Trump in New Hampshire, on Thursday following his indictment in connection with the 2014 Bundy Ranch standoff in Nevada, the New Hampshire Union Leader reported.

    Federal charges against DeLemus included “conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, threatening a federal law enforcement officer, attempting to impede or injure a federal law enforcement officer and several firearms charges,” the newspaper reported.

    Susan DeLemus, a state representative and fellow supporter of Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, confirmed her husband’s arrest to the newspaper. Trump announced that he was forming Veterans for Trump in July and named DeLemus among the co-chairs.

    With an admitted small helping of glee, I forwarded it to my NH bro, who immediately wondered why he isn’t a member of the legislature, but then noticed not only is his wife actually in the legislature, she’s batshit crazy.

    A New Hampshire state representative who once said Donald Trump is the only politician she believes in came to the Republican candidate’s defense during his tiff with Pope Francis on Thursday, calling the Pope “the anti-Christ.”

    In response to her own Facebook post of three snippets of scripture from the Geneva Bible, Rep. Susan DeLemus (R) wrote: “The Pope is the anti-Christ. [sic] Do your research.” In another response, DeLemus said “I’m not sure who the Pope truly has in his heart.”

    She told Politico that she was generally referring to the papacy, rather than Pope Francis in particular.

    “I was actually referencing the papacy. And what I wrote after that ‘do your research,’ if you read the Geneva Bible, which is the Bible I use when we study, the commentary is – actually by the founders of the United States actually, the Protestant Church – their commentary references the papacy as the anti-Christ,” DeLemus said.

    Live Free or D’oh!

  22. 22.

    El Caganer

    March 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm

    @Baud: It sorta depends on what you want them to do….

  23. 23.

    trollhattan

    March 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm

    @John Revolta:

    Mussolini made the trains run on time. Stalin just had them all shot.

    Poor choo-choos. :-(

  24. 24.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 3, 2016 at 4:26 pm

    @gene108: I don’t think BJP has the political power that she had in 1975. BJP doesn’t even control half the state governments at this moment whereas Congress controlled almost all the governments with may be one or two ruled by the Communists.

    But the Sangh’s attempt to rewrite India’s history is troubling.

  25. 25.

    Steve in the ATL

    March 3, 2016 at 4:28 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Modi and his government is pushing the envelope right now in India, intimidating those dare to question the ruling party’s tactics and their version of India’s history and Hinduism.

    So this Modi guy is a hardcore rightwinger. And who is his new BFF? That rep from Hawaii who just resigned from the DNC because she loves Bernie so much. And her family is notoriously conservative and racist. I wonder what’s really going on there.

  26. 26.

    gene108

    March 3, 2016 at 4:29 pm

    @Napoleon:

    Probably Khrushchev and Gorbachev were the best the USSR produced.

    Anybody, who survived in Stalin’s inner circle had to be both very bold to get attention and very cautious, at the same time, as not to get on Stalin’s bad side.

    If Stalin wanted you to stay up all night drinking, you stayed up all night drinking, telling jokes and making sure to laugh at Stalin’s, even if it wasn’t funny and even if you were drunk enough to start lowering your filters. You somehow had to find the resolve to keep calculating what you were saying and doing.

    If Stalin wanted to make sure grains from Ukraine would be shipped to Eastern Europe, to help with the Eastern Bloc relief efforts, post-WW2, you damn well made sure those Ukrainian farmers didn’t get any funny ideas like taking a little bit of grain on the side to feed themselves and their families.

    Stalin really set up a strange dynamic of forcing people to try and manage contradictory things simultaneously to stay on his good side.

  27. 27.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 3, 2016 at 4:30 pm

    @Steve in the ATL: Her mother is a Hindu convert, you know what they say about converts.

  28. 28.

    Steve in the ATL

    March 3, 2016 at 4:30 pm

    @trollhattan:

    if you read the Geneva Bible, which is the Bible I use when we study, the commentary is – actually by the founders of the United States actually, the Protestant Church – their commentary references the papacy as the anti-Christ,” DeLemus said

    So the Geneva Bible is the new Skousen Constitution?

  29. 29.

    gene108

    March 3, 2016 at 4:33 pm

    @sigaba:

    Didn’t the Nazi’s hold office in Bavaria? They were a political party that did have some office holders and won some elections.

  30. 30.

    Cermet

    March 3, 2016 at 4:35 pm

    Really? Hitler and Trump are similar? OK, peak balloon-juice nutter? The systems and majority of people aren’t in the Germany mind set nor tradition. Not that isn’t interesting on how blind the anti-Semitic NYT writer was to Hitler but hardily relevant to tRump.

    On the other hand, their are elements in this country that easily fit that profile but again, maybe 27% of the minority thug party – a small number compared to the US population but a very large number in absolute terms since it is measured in millions. Still, this country practiced full blown slavery (but through the State, not by individuals) until the 1940’s of blacks in the South (chain gangs by a system that preyed on young blacks and took millions over the decades from 1867 to the start of 1940.)

    This country does have some very sick monsters who the thug party does all in its power to keep as voters. That is more scary than tRump and his honesty of changing the dog whistle into a loud speaker. That is what scares the elite – the mask will be torn and all rational people will see the truth of what they do to keep the elite in control of the uneducated, racist, and religious loons.

  31. 31.

    Iowa Old Lady

    March 3, 2016 at 4:36 pm

    @rikyrah: I love the way he thinks of his family. A lot of powerful people are incapable of that.

  32. 32.

    Napoleon

    March 3, 2016 at 4:36 pm

    @gene108:

    I read a few books on Stalin a couple of years ago and I was stunned at how wildly incompetent that guy was at everything but seizing and keeping power in that country. He was like Dubya times 10, but with Gulags.

  33. 33.

    Napoleon

    March 3, 2016 at 4:38 pm

    @gene108:

    PS, I read recently where Khrushchev was proudest of changing the political system so if you were on the outs the worst that happened to you is that you ended up managing a 3rd rate factory in the boondocks.

  34. 34.

    misterpuff

    March 3, 2016 at 4:40 pm

    @Baud: Those “several reliable, well-informed sources” were either naïve party apparachiks (who would be purged in the future) or true believers who ratf*ck the Press (some ex-pat drunk or ne’er-do-well) for shits and grins.

  35. 35.

    Mnemosyne

    March 3, 2016 at 4:41 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    That story is in the book. The Khrushchev’s (husband and wife) were both a little shocked at the bare legs, but enjoyed meeting the movie stars. IIRC, at least one of their children ended up emigrating to the US, and possibly all of them.

    @gene108:

    They tell a story in the book about how Stalin loved to make Khrushchev — who was always short and fat — perform Russian dances in front of his other henchmen. K almost had the last laugh, though. He came very close to doing a major reform of the government and was deposed for his trouble.

  36. 36.

    gene108

    March 3, 2016 at 4:42 pm

    @Steve in the ATL:

    So this Modi guy is a hardcore rightwinger.

    Not the same thing in India as it is here.

    From what I gather, there is not as much difference on economic policy, between the two main national parties, Congress and the BJP.

    The BJP is inspired as a political off-shoot of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, which has had a checkered history in India’s past.

    But as a ruling body, the BJP has not really pushed for to turn India into a Hindu nation, rather than a secular democracy.

  37. 37.

    sigaba

    March 3, 2016 at 4:42 pm

    @gene108: Yes, in fact they held political office all over Germany. (But, notably, Hitler never held any of these. The German system at the time allowed him to be a member of the Reichstag without having to win a constituent election, it was all party list proportional representation.)

    But in the national legislature they never had more than about 40% of the seats (there’s that number again). Hitler refused to join a government unless he was made chancellor though, and the conservatives couldn’t hold a coalition together without him, so Hindenburg gave Hitler what he wanted in exchange for bringing the NSDAP into the government. As part of the deal several other Nazis got key posts– Goering became a minister without portfolio and the minister-president of Prussia, for example. (His office in the Prussian Interior Ministry had a secret tunnel to the Reichstag that became a point of suspicion subsequent to the fire.)

  38. 38.

    Waldo

    March 3, 2016 at 4:44 pm

    Hell, I’d vote for Stalin over Trump too. Dead authoritarians are way less hassle.

  39. 39.

    gene108

    March 3, 2016 at 4:46 pm

    @Napoleon:

    I read some books on Stalin a few years back.

    He did one thing, at great expense, that really made him loved by most people and that is dig in and refuse to surrender to the Germans, but otherwise grabbing power was the only thing he did well.

    He had no scruples.

  40. 40.

    gene108

    March 3, 2016 at 4:49 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Khrushchev was trying to thread a needle, when he took power.

    He was trying to establish his legitimacy to the office, among the Soviet people, while trying to take some of the luster off of Stalin’s rule, without undermining the whole system.

    He wanted to make changes, and did not want to be hamstrung by Stalinism.

  41. 41.

    raven

    March 3, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    @Napoleon: Try this

    Milovan Đilas “Conversations with Stalin”

    Djilas travels to Moscow as a foreign dignitary to discuss Yugoslav-Soviet policies. He must cool his heels for days before he is finally summoned to meet Stalin, and then the meetings are typically all night dinners with copious drinking and byzantine political subtext to the conversation. Stalin dominates the discussion so thoroughly that when he insists that the Netherlands was not a member of the Benelux union, nobody dares correct him. Djilas recognizes traits of greatness in Stalin, his ruthlessness and far-sightedness. He describes these not out of regard or respect, but because they are precisely the qualities which make Stalin evil. “Every crime was possible to Stalin, for there was not one he had not committed.”
    As doubts begin to creep in for Djilas, he records the development of his own cynicism. “In politics, more than in anything else, the beginning of everything lies in moral indignation and in doubt of the good intentions of others”. His portraits of Krushchev, open-minded and clever; of Molotov, Stalin’s taciturn lieutenant; Dimitrov, the powerful Bulgarian kept on Stalin’s string; Beria, sinister and drunk; and a host of other prominent figures make this book required reading for those interested in the era. The descriptions of machinations surrounding Yugoslav-Albanian-Bulgarian politics and his unflattering characterization of Croatian hero Andrija Hebrang are of great interest to students of Balkan history.

  42. 42.

    sigaba

    March 3, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    @Cermet: I agree it’s an obnoxious comparison.

    But I’m personally a functionalist, which means among other things, that I don’t think it matters if Hitler really intended to kill all the Jews in 1922 or if he wanted to start a war to dominate Europe. His platform was enough to set in motion a chain of events that even if he’d wanted to stop it, which I’m certain he did not, he would not have been able to.

    The problem is bigger than Donald Trump and would exist without him, though he bears responsibility for catalyzing the new dynamic. Once you get people talking about walls and roundup of foreigners, and nativist rhetoric and authoritarian populism, police states are just baked into the cake, regardless of what the guy at the top may have actually intended.

    I don’t think Trump wants to be a strongman dictator, but it’s sort of like Life of Brian and how he never wanted to be the messiah. It doesn’t matter what you do or say, the idea when it gets into people’s heads has a life and imperatives of its own.

  43. 43.

    sigaba

    March 3, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    @gene108: Great subway stations though. Moscow metro rocks.

  44. 44.

    FlipYrWhig

    March 3, 2016 at 4:54 pm

    @Steve in the ATL:

    So this Modi guy is a hardcore rightwinger. And who is his new BFF? That rep from Hawaii who just resigned from the DNC because she loves Bernie so much. And her family is notoriously conservative and racist. I wonder what’s really going on there.

    I think this means that by the transitive property of politics* Bernie Sanders loves Narendra Modi.

    *Also known as the Wasserman Schultz Theorem.

  45. 45.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 3, 2016 at 4:55 pm

    @gene108: Gandhi’s assassin Nathuram Godse was an RSS member. Their ideology is a threat to India’s very existence. Mr. Modi is an RSS man, he was a pracharak.
    I do agree there is no one-one correspondence between BJP and GOP, although there are similarities, especially with the religious right in this country.

  46. 46.

    Roger Moore

    March 3, 2016 at 5:01 pm

    @sigaba:
    You have an only partially accurate version of the events. Wiemar Germany had a fairly standard parliamentary system in which nobody expected for any single party to win an outright majority. Instead, they were expected to form a coalition of parties that could agree on enough issues to form a cabinet. After the elections in July of 1932, they couldn’t even get together a coalition, so Hindenburg kept a cabinet that ruled through emergency presidential decrees. That wasn’t a stable situation, and the chancellor was forced to ask for new elections to avoid a no confidence vote.

    The Nazis were actually the top party in both the July and November elections. They weren’t able to form a coalition government after the July elections, but they were able to put a coalition together after the November election, and Hitler became chancellor. For all that Hindenburg gets criticized for letting the Nazis form a government, it’s hard to see what else he could have done. Between them, the extremist parties (Nazis and Communists) had enough seats in parliament that any majority coalition had to include one or the other, and they were going to keep forcing new elections until they either lost enough seats to do so or one of them got included. When anti-democratic parties hold a majority in parliament, it’s very difficult to keep democratic government going.

  47. 47.

    TOP123

    March 3, 2016 at 5:04 pm

    @gene108: I was scrolling to the bottom to write something along these lines. Stalin played an important role in sustaining the Soviet war effort, which was the reason Allies won. The relocation of industry to the Urals alone was a massive factor.
    Also, to reply to your comment on the power dynamics of the USSR under Stalin, which I thought was really well put.
    As for Khrushchev, he had a lot of blood on his hands from his role in the Holodomor alone. But it was a pretty blood-soaked lot.

  48. 48.

    VOR

    March 3, 2016 at 5:05 pm

    @Napoleon: Read about Idi Amin sometime if you want real incompetence.

  49. 49.

    p.a.

    March 3, 2016 at 5:08 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Sergei Nikitich Khrushchev (Russian: Серге́й Ники́тич Хрущёв, born in July 2, 1935) is the son of former Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev. He now resides in the United States where he is a Senior Fellow at the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island.

  50. 50.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    March 3, 2016 at 5:20 pm

    @gene108: Yup. Diebold understood that too.

    ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  51. 51.

    Really?

    March 3, 2016 at 5:22 pm

    At least Stalin had better hair than Trump.

  52. 52.

    Brachiator

    March 3, 2016 at 5:35 pm

    Found this little nugget about the article:

    The Times has made the article available to subscribers as part of its “Time Machine” feature. It was written by Cyril Brown from Munich, and the paper notes that it was filed “By Wireless.”

  53. 53.

    Peale

    March 3, 2016 at 5:38 pm

    @Waldo: Agreed. Very important to vet the VP thoroughly, though.

  54. 54.

    JaneE

    March 3, 2016 at 7:48 pm

    @gene108: Hitler’s party was a minority party, and Hitler himself was not elected to office. The inability of the parliament to form a coalition led to his appointment as chancellor. Since he wasn’t a member of the factions fighting for power (yeah, right) he could govern without bias. Sort of like Trump, a front runner but without a majority.

  55. 55.

    Paul in KY

    March 4, 2016 at 8:13 am

    @schrodinger’s cat: How the Hell can you ‘convert’ to Hinduism?! My understanding is that you are either born a Hindu or you are not.

  56. 56.

    No One You Know

    March 4, 2016 at 10:26 am

    @Bob Smith: In the last 24 hours I’ve received copies of a photo comparing common interests and views of Trump and Hitler. For once, “Godwin” does not seem appropriate.

    Black swans are now Trumpeter swans.

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