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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Late Night Open Thread: The Rigors of Grammar

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105Comments

  4. 4.

    Amir Khalid

    Also, Balloon Juice is not loading right today. There’s something from syndication.twitter.com that won’t finish transferring.

  7. 7.

    Prescott Cactus

    What a difference an Oxford comma makes. I might have paid attention in school. Scarier than clowns !

  9. 9.

    jl

    That dumb Oxford comma takes a lot of fun and guesswork out of English. I am against it.

    And do we know for sure that JFK and Stalin weren’t strippers? All you have is a bunch of pics of them not stripping. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

  11. 11.

    Mnemosyne

    I was able to win a co-worker to the Oxford comma by pointing out that the only reason newspapers started leaving it out was convenience — it’s easier to typeset a line without those extra commas taking up space.

  12. 12.

    PurpleGirl

    @Amir Khalid: Sometimes when the page won’t stop loading something I will click on the “x” to stop the loading. I’ve yet to have that do something detrimental to a thread.

  14. 14.

    PurpleGirl

    @Mnemosyne: When I worked at Academic Press and then at Marcel Dekker, the Oxford comma (or serial comma) was the house style. When I worked for Toni Levi at Learning Leaders, she also wanted it used. On the other hand, at Matthew Bender (a legal publisher) and the law firm, they did not use serial commas. It often made phrases and clauses ambiguous. I like serial commas.

  16. 16.

    Steeplejack

    @Anne Laurie:

    Grammar/punctuation fail: In the graphic up top, the second example should be:

    We invited the strippers JFK and Stalin.

    There is no need for a comma, Oxford or not. You are specifying the names of the strippers to augment and modify the object of the sentence (strippers). Similar:

    We chose the colors blue and gray.

    It would make no sense to write:

    We chose the colors, blue and gray.

    The only time the sentence “We invited the strippers, JFK and Stalin” would make sense is if the two strippers had been introduced previously in the text (by name or not) and you wanted to add or do a call-back to their names.

    We had to decide on the entertainment for the party, and it came down to a team of contortionists or a pair of strippers. We invited the strippers, JFK and Stalin, and told them to come to the house on Saturday night.

    Having said all that, I therefore don’t think the Oxford comma is critical in the first sentence in the graphic. But on that pedants may disagree.

  17. 17.

    fuckwit

    Capitalization is the difference between “I helped my uncle Jack off a horse”, and “I helped my uncle jack off a horse”

  20. 20.

    Mnemosyne

    @Steeplejack:

    We chose the colors, blue and gray.

    But now you’ve sailed us into the murky waters of writing style, not just strict grammar. I can picture certain contexts and types of writing where the above sentence makes much more sense than the comma-less version even though it’s not “correct.”

  21. 21.

    Mart

    My daughter, with two master degrees in English, told me that I needed to start using serial commas. I fought back as I never used in 57 years. I lost. I am now a serial comma-er. I am better for it.

  22. 22.

    Steeplejack

    @Mnemosyne:

    There are plenty of situations in which

    We chose the colors, blue and gray.

    would be correct. It depends on context. My point was exactly that. There is nothing magical about an “Oxford comma” to support the joke in the graphic at the top.

  23. 23.

    Major Major Major Major

    I love the serial comma, which I like calling it because people have stupid knee-jerk reactions to the phrase “Oxford Comma” and also that insufferable band Vampire Weekend has an insufferable song about it.

    Although the best one is “Highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.”

    –M^4 -260:00

  26. 26.

    jl

    @Steeplejack: Of course the strippers were mentioned by name earlier in the text. Who would bother reading on to hear about boring old politician farts like JFK and Stalin if they weren’t?

    Brandy and Tiffany, IIRC.

  28. 28.

    Steeplejack

    @Steeplejack:

    Ditto for the crack about “my parents, Ayn Rand and God.” Only the narrowest surrounding context would indicate that the speaker means Rand and God are his/her parents. And to argue that the Oxford comma is sacrosanct is rich coming from people here who regularly butcher their punctuation in a hundred other ways.

  29. 29.

    Steeplejack

    @Major Major Major Major:

    But in that example—

    Highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod[,] and a dildo collector.

    —the addition of the serial comma doesn’t clarify whether he met three individuals or only two, the first of whom happens to be an 800-year-old demigod.

  31. 31.

    Mnemosyne

    @Steeplejack:

    I’m not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work there, Lou, but I’m not in the mood to argue it. This season’s cold is the friggin’ worst, and I’m over most of it except for the fatigue.

  36. 36.

    Amir Khalid

    @Steeplejack:
    Ah, but “an 800-year-old demigod” is a noun phrase which may or may not be in apposition to the preceding name. That’s a different grammar issue.

  37. 37.

    Steeplejack

    @Amir Khalid:

    Thank you for pointing out the bleedingly obvious buttressing my point in countering M^4’s assertion that the addition of the comma was dispositive.

    ETA: Edited for comity.

  39. 39.

    Amir Khalid

    @Steeplejack:
    I always stick to pointing out the obvious. That way I can’t go wrong. Oh, and Mnemosyne’s point applies to house-style guides in general. You’re always going to find some bit of guidance that’s disputable, or even just plain wrong.

  42. 42.

    Steeplejack

    @Amir Khalid:

    You’re always going to find some bit of guidance that’s disputable, or even just plain wrong.

    But the Oxford commanists never seem to think that applies to them, just to everybody else.

  44. 44.

    Steeplejack

    @Amir Khalid:

    [. . .] Mnemosyne’s point applies to house-style guides in general.

    And please remember this the next time you feel the urge to lecture us American writers on our non-British spelling and punctuation.

  45. 45.

    Steeplejack

    And now I’m going to bed before mclaren arrives with a 5,000-word screed on how Gutenberg was a stooge for the Illuminati.

  46. 46.

    mclaren

    You can avoid all that Oxford comma crap merely by using “and.” Which removes all ambiguity.

    “We invited the strippers and JFK and Stalin.”

    It makes everything sound like Hemingway, but since America has now turned into a live recap of The Sun Also Rises, big deal. In fact, it’s a surprise that no one has yet posted in response to the assertion “Bernie Sanders will produce great change when he becomes president,” the rejoinder “Wouldn’t it be pretty to think so?”

  47. 47.

    mclaren

    Also, I protest at this entire post. It reveals that so-called liberal Democrats are nothing but commanists in disguise.

  48. 48.

    Amir Khalid

    @Steeplejack:
    That’s just my shtick here. I’ve always felt that an American writer’s prose looks and feels more right with American spelling, and the same goes for a British writer’s prose with British spelling. But that thing where you people always put the punctuation inside the quote marks, even when it’s not part of the quote …

  49. 49.

    mclaren

    @joel hanes:

    This thread will be of special interest to my parents, Ayn Rand and God.

    If one of your parents is Ayn Rand, stating that the other parent is God seems redundant.

  50. 50.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @mclaren:

    You can avoid all that Oxford comma crap merely by using “and.”

    Very succinct and very true. Kudos. Or at least a kudo.

  51. 51.

    mclaren

    @Steeplejack:

    And now I’m going to bed before mclaren arrives with a 5,000-word screed on how Gutenberg was a stooge for the Illuminati.

    Not Gutenberg. Ginsberg!

    “I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by illuminati, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry Trilateral Commission in the machinery of the night.”

  53. 53.

    scav

    It’s not major, @Major Major Major Major.

    Just because I wanted to. It’s like the Venn core of commas, ceçi n’est pas une pipe and buffaloed buffalos

    ETA: With a hint of the lying Cretan, but he’s probably smoking that pipe, which would make him Schrodinger’s Cretan.

  54. 54.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @Amir Khalid:

    I’ve always felt that an American writer’s prose looks and feels more right with American spelling, and the same goes for a British writer’s prose with British spelling.

    On that we can agree.

  58. 58.

    mclaren

    @Amir Khalid:

    I’ve always felt that an American writer’s prose looks and feels more right with American spelling, and the same goes for a British writer’s prose with British spelling.

    American writers’ prose always seems to have a more divers range of colour when spelt the Yank way, while British writers’ prose certainly always gives us a boot and a lift when proper British spelling is used.

  59. 59.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @mclaren:

    Heh, well played.

    Mclaren bringing the soothing balm of humor to a contentious thread. Didn’t see that coming.

    Wait’ll I tell the other blog trolls here in the basement at DOD WebWar Command Section #4690 (third-tier blogs, center-left).

  62. 62.

    akryan

    so, ho hum, another mass shooting tonight. 5 dead already. no arrests. of course now is not the time to politicize this. we’ll have to wait until we find out if the killers are muslim first.

  66. 66.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Steeplejack: Why would it make no sense to use a comma? If the modifier is an appositive, it’s standard to set it off with commas. For example:

    Marvin, the baker, was accustomed to early hours.

    If you took out the commas it would read as a medieval style title:

    Marvin the baker was accustomed to early hours.

  68. 68.

    Another Holocene Human

    On another subject, I know it’s nutpicking, but I just found out that Cornel West called Donald Trump the only “authentic human being” in the Republican race last year. An authentic narcissistic bully perhaps. But West himself has issues with being a narcissist and a bully so I guess it takes one to know one.

  69. 69.

    Central Planning

    @Steeplejack:

    And to argue that the Oxford comma is sacrosanct is rich coming from people here who regularly butcher their punctuation in a hundred other ways.

    You gotta know the rules to break the rules.

  70. 70.

    Anne Laurie

    @Another Holocene Human: I actually (mostly) like Cornell West (philosophers since at least Socrates have gotten themselves in trouble for taking their performances just that little bit too far). But the tweet now being circulated on the center-left is, shall we say, problematic:

    Note of caution, it’s from last summer, so Professor West may have re-thought his stance since then…

  71. 71.

    qwerty42

    @Steeplejack:

    And now I’m going to bed before mclaren arrives with a 5,000-word screed on how Gutenberg was a stooge for the Illuminati.

    Yeah, it’s common knowledge that Gutenberg was really a stooge for the Jesuits.

  72. 72.

    cmorenc

    @Amir Khalid:

    But that thing where you people always put the punctuation inside the quote marks, even when it’s not part of the quote …

    That’s one of those style book principles that strike me as both wrong and insufferably pedantic. And so, I always put punctuation that’s not part of a quote outside the quote. Fortunately, I am beyond any situations where I have to put up with pedantic idiots (editors, professors) having any power to bother me over my quote-punctuation practices.

  73. 73.

    debbie

    @Major Major Major Major:

    The best sentence I saw and used to convince the unconvinced of the importance of the serial comma was, “The biggest influences in my life have been my parents Mother Theresa and Jesus Christ.” It also helped tht they were a bit offended by the sentence’s implications.

  74. 74.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Har-har. But, to indulge you, if it was one individual the usual construction would be:

    Highlights of his global tour include an encounter with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and dildo collector.

  76. 76.

    ab

    Maybe this has already been said, but I don’t know why people think that that’s such a clever example of the need for a serial comma. There’s just as much ambiguity with the serial comma as without:

    I’d like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand, and god.

  85. 85.

    Steve in the ATL

    1. There was an Oxford comma thread and no one woke me up? F you all.
    2. If you want get really technical, wouldn’t the second picture, of JFK and Stalin as strippers, be properly written as “We invited the strippers: JFK and Stalin”?
    3. Again, people, wake me up if there is a grammar pedant thread!

  86. 86.

    Steve in the ATL

    @ab:

    There’s just as much ambiguity with the serial comma as without:

    I’d like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand, and god.

    If this were spoken rather than written, the cadence should indicate the meaning. Also, if “Ayn” is mispronounced that’s a good clue that she’s not the mother. Plus, considering what we know of Ayn, it seems unlikely that a child of hers would be thanking her for anything!

  88. 88.

    RSA

    @Mnemosyne:

    it’s easier to typeset a line without those extra commas taking up space.

    In case this thread’s not yet dead… I have similar arguments with people about whether one or two spaces should follow a full stop (a period at the end of a sentence). I do two spaces out of habit and because most of my typing is in a text editor that makes it easier to move around in if the end of a sentence is unambiguous. If people want to see one space, that’s perfectly fine–but it’s a typesetting issue, not a composition issue. That is, a computer application for displaying text can be designed so that it automatically follows a given style. It’s not like we’re hammering out text permanently onto paper with a mechanical typewriter any more.

  89. 89.

    Steve in the ATL

    @RSA: I know some of the kidz today are one-spacers, but hasn’t the iPhone crushed that movement? I can hit type a period then one space, or I can hit two spaces in a split second and Steve Jobs types the period for me. That’s a no brainer.

    ETA: as you can see, I am committed to bringing this thread back to life. I’m like Jeb Bush when he was governor.

  90. 90.

    Steeplejack

    @Steve in the ATL:

    There was an Oxford comma thread and no one woke me up?

    You were self-reported to be in no shape to suit up. You could have split an infinitive and jeopardized your career.

  92. 92.

    Dmbeaster

    @Steeplejack: Exactly. Its a fun pedantic debate, and says more about the different wirings of the brain than grammar. The Oxford comma is unnecessary because the alleged ambiguity arises from misuse of the comma in the second example. And this really becomes clear if we add a third stripper, Mao. So which is correct Oxford advocates? “We invited the strippers, JFK, Stalin, and Mao” or “We invited the strippers, JFK, Stalin and Mao.”

  93. 93.

    Mnemosyne

    @RSA:

    Yep. That’s why the Oxford comma debate is so contentious — at heart, it’s really a style debate and not a grammar debate at all. I prefer two spaces after a period, but it’s not a natural movement anymore after several years in journalism.

    ETA: And I’ve been out of journalism for over 15 years, but that muscle memory still hangs on.

  95. 95.

    No One You Know

    @Steeplejack: I disagree. Your construction ambiguates the names, and number, of people in the party. Are there four, three, or two?

    Let’s eat Grandma.
    Let’s eat, Grandma.
    Commas save lives!

  101. 101.

    Paul in KY

    @Amir Khalid: If the quote included a string of words that would have punctuation, then you put the punctuation inside the quotes. What funky way do they do it in your native language?

  104. 104.

    mel

    @Steeplejack:
    Yes! Thank you! There is something vaguely sad about that little illustrated (and incorrect) attempt at a grammar lesson. It reminds me of a skit from 10 or 15 years ago (SNL, perhaps) wherein an elderly grandmother horrifies her family by treating them to a piano accompanied version of Madonna’s “Like a Virgin”.

    Granny (and the grammar mangling cartoonist) need to be sure that they can walk the walk if they’re going to talk the talk!

    For what it is worth, I love the Oxford comma. I also love Stalin’s sassy pasties.

  105. 105.

    debbie

    @Mnemosyne:

    That’s why the Oxford comma debate is so contentious — at heart, it’s really a style debate and not a grammar debate at all.

    Except that it improves clarity, which should be the point of all communication.

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